“We are living in the midst of the biggest move of God in history…”An exclusive interview with the Rev. Jerry Kramer of Love for the Least, a global ministry to the Muslim world

By David W. Virtue, DD

www.virtueonline.org

December 1, 2025

An exclusive interview with the Rev. Jerry Kramer of Love for the Least, a global mission to Muslims in the Middle East and East Africa. He and his wife Stacy have been actively serving as missionaries for more than 25 years. They were briefly in the US before returning overseas, where I had an opportunity to interview him.

VOL: It is growing clearer by the day that the West is spiritually dying—churches are closing, aging parishioners have dropped out, and "Nones" (people without Christian faith) are on the rise, with Western liberal Christianity on the wane. However, the Christian faith is finding its feet in the Global South with millions learning about and finding Christ. The Anglican Communion is said to top 100 million, with 85 percent claimed by GAFCON. You spend most of your time in the Middle East evangelizing Muslims. From a transnational perspective, how do you view all this?

KRAMER: First off, all glory to God. And hats off to the intercessors and generous givers. They’re the engine. Only God moves movements and He moves His gracious hand in prayer and fasting, I don’t have it all figured out.  Here, I will describe what we’re seeing. This is more descriptive than prescriptive. Today we are living in the midst of the biggest move of God in history. What a time to be alive! What we’re seeing is unprecedented. And it’s happening all over the planet, largely in the same way. Through what we are calling Disciple Making or Kingdom Movements. Our little team, over the past three and a half years, now has a network of over 4,000 churches. In ten countries.  And we’ve reached 14 generations of disciples and church plants. A disciple who has made a disciple who has made a disciple …  to the fourteenth generation. A church that has planted a church that has planted a church … to the fourteenth generation. In three and a half years. That’s what Movement looks like. But this move is unlike anything we’ve ever seen. It’s simply about doing things God’s way.  Following the New Testament pattern for Church. If you’re not willing to adjust to God’s ways and timing, the wave will pass you right by. I’m not saying you have to hide or water down your Anglicanism. Not at all. I’m a full throttle Anglican. But you do have to think it all through. And watch what God is doing, then join Him. We’re seeing huge renewed spiritual openness among the Zs. But you have to know how to engage them. Churches aren’t going to fill back up by osmosis.

VOL: In the U.S., only one percent of churches is doing evangelism, according to Ryan Burge and other demographers. Is this the beginning of the end if churches are not actively evangelistic?

KRAMER: Yes. Only 5% of what we call “church growth” is through actual evangelism. 95% is people simply moving or changing churches. But It’s not just evangelism. “Evangelism” for many churches is, “We’re getting older, our old guard is dying off. So, we need to replace them to pay the bills.” Evangelism comes out of discipleship. Make disciples. Disciples evangelize. Disciples share. The Church in the U.S. is in trouble because we’ve largely failed at the essential task of showing people, modeling for them, what it means and looks like to follow Jesus. In the U.S. we make “Church members.” Jesus never said to do that. Jesus never said erect buildings and invite people to join your denomination. You can plant churches that have no disciples. But if you make disciples, disciples will always plant churches. Plant the Gospel and build up the Kingdom by making disciples. It’s also important how we measure. Our only metric for success is generational growth. How many generations of disciples do you have? How many generations of church plants do you have? It’s not how many baptisms you’ve had. It’s not how big your church is. It’s not how many churches you’ve planted. Only generational multiplication shows real health and vitality. Churches stuck at gen 1 and 2 die off. A church plant that doesn’t reproduce another generation is a mule, not a rabbit. When does a search committee ever ask, “How many disciples have you made? How many generations? How do you make and mature disciples?” We’re asking the wrong questions. Because we have the wrong mindset. We want rabbit not mule churches.

VOL: Traditional missionary methods have seemingly failed, with increasing talk of interfaith dialogue and accommodation with other faith and religious traditions. In your opinion, why did traditional missionary methods fail?

KRAMER: You’d be surprised by how many missionaries never share the Gospel. Now that’s a problem! It’s not that the Gospel failed. They’ve never tried it! When we see stuck workers and teams, it’s normally one of three things.  They’re not sharing enough. They’re not praying enough. Or the leader is holding the reins too tightly. We’ve also developed this bad habit of calling everything “mission.” If everything is “mission,” you’ve lost your focus and will never accomplish the Great Commission (which is really the “Great Suggestion”). The answer to your question is, we’ve gotten away from the essential identity and activity of a missionary. And the priority of missions. A missionary is someone who lives cross culturally, bringing the Good News of the Kingdom to those who would otherwise hear. No more, no less. And missions - while God’s priority - simply isn’t ours. I hear all the time, “Oh we’ll get on that mission stuff once we’re more stable, once we’ve (fill in the blank).” But that day never comes because you’re disobeying God. The US Church gives one tenth of one penny to reaching the 3.2 billion souls with no access to the Gospel. We’re simply not going to get healthy until we align with God’s plan priorities: His vision, His heart, His plan, His way. And we have to get away from “bigger is better.” Small churches can be amazing, powerful, fruitful engines for building up the Kingdom of God. It’s about faithfulness not size. I’m a huge fan of small churches and small church pastors.

VOL: Why is Christianity growing the fastest in Iran, China, and Nepal? It is said that the church in Iran is growing at the rate of 2,000 a day. In China, independent estimates suggest the Christian population could exceed 100 million Christians, mostly meeting in house churches despite Sinicization. In Nepal, estimates range from 638,000 to three million Christians in a predominantly Hindu nation and culture. In your opinion, what is going on?

KRAMER: It’s back to that “Big move of God.” This all started unfolding in an identifiable way about 25 years ago. It took us a while to figure out what to call it. But we eventually landed on Disciple Making or Kingdom Movements. Only God can move movements. Timing and location are His sovereign decision. That’s why prayer is so essential. We pray for God to move His hand, to come to people in dreams and visions. I can only describe what we’re seeing. You have to take an ontological approach. Identify what you’re seeing while reserving judgement. This Big Move started in India best we can tell. Then it moved around Asia. The Middle East is seeing massive breakthrough. Africa might be the hottest spot presently. It’s hitting Europe and now, finally, the US. The European workers won’t share details out of fear. Fear that the movement will be snuffed out. The biggest movement killers are denominations and money. So, they’re keeping quiet. In the Middle East our biggest threat isn’t the Muslim Brotherhood; it’s denominations and large funders who often do more harm than good. There was a huge movement in Northern Iraq in the early 1990s. The American and Egyptian evangelicals rolled in and killed it dead.

VOL: Your work is mainly in Iraq, Iran, and Tanzania. First, tell us about your work in Tanzania. Who and what are you reaching for Christ in that African nation?

KRAMER: We are helping catalyze three movements in East Africa. And have recently been invited to help workers in a new area. There are two large movements now running parallel along the Swahili Coast. The Muslims of the Coast comprise the largest UPG in East Africa. This region - 98% Muslim - was largely considered impenetrable. Hopeless. We’re seeing huge, rapid progress. Interestingly, the Anglican Church is leading one of these movements. And these are High Church biretta wearing Anglicans! We’ve said for over a decade that Anglicans can do this if we’d just get over ourselves. The Anglicans there are training new Muslim Background Believers in batches of 100 to 200. That was once unimaginable. And they didn’t compromise on essentials. Adjusted and reoriented, yes.

VOL: The main focus of your ministry is the Muslim world, probably the most difficult of all challenges and cultures in the world to reach for Christ. Which country is your main focus?

KRAMER: We really don’t think in terms of countries. Jesus said to go to ALL “ethnes.” People Groups. Country border lines change. People Groups are static. So, we focus on Unreached People Groups (UPGs) and Unengaged Unreached People Groups (UUPGs). It’s pretty exciting to be part of the first Gospel engagement ever with a culture. I think we’re working among 3 UUPGs at present.  It took us three years just to get an initial meeting with one of them. Under very, very secretive, sketchy circumstances. It was very tense! I wanted to hide under the table at one point. Now we’re friends. Our rule is we don’t get involved with People Groups more than 4% “reached” without a really compelling, strategic reason.  For example, we might engage with a group that’s a little more reached because they can bridge to an Unreached Group.

VOL: Who does the best work evangelizing and discipling Muslims? Are denominational sending agencies getting the job done? If not, why not?

KRAMER: Great question. We need to fundamentally rethink our approach to missions. What is the best ROI (Return On Investment)? We need to be more discerning, more questioning, more intentional, more committed. More accountable. Local workers move the Kingdom needle. They’re the heart of it. Western workers are expensive and far less effective. I’m a Western worker: The locals are our heroes. You can fund 30 local Gospel workers for the cost of one Westerner. Western workers should be limited and focused, strategically positioned and platformed to catalyze locals. We really don’t want the nationals to see our white faces. The less of us the better. The problem is these amazing, faithful, heroic local Believers don’t know anyone in the West to support them. We need to work on this. How do we connect churches in the West with fruitful, Kingdom advancing indigenous Believers? That’s where you’re going to get your best ROI. We need to focus on funding and supporting local Gospel workers. There has to be a way of connecting churches, senders and funders with indigenous Believers.

VOL:  Are churches that are top-heavy with bishops, archbishops, and miters getting kingdom work done?

KRAMER: We’re seeing a change in our understanding of “apostle” and “apostolic” from an office to a function. I think that’s also biblical.  Someone who functions “apostolically” breaks new ground, bringing the Good News of the Kingdom to new frontiers.  “The apostolic influence is not merely concerned with serving the primary flock and immediate community, which is the primary role of a pastor. Rather, the apostolic influence is supposed to expand into the surrounding region.” —Joseph Mattera. Essentially, if you’re planting and leading networks of churches, you’re operating apostolically. The problem is we’re hung up on offices. In the US, we send someone off to seminary to incur $100k in debt in the hope they might be able to do the job one day. Many can’t. It’s tragic. In the field, we simply affirm what we see God doing in someone’s life. If they’re pastoring well, they’re probably a pastor. If they’re sharing and leading people to Jesus, they’re an evangelist. If they’re planting multi–People Group, cross border church planting networks, they’re apostolic.

“Y” is one of our big Iranian leaders in Central Asia. He’s been a follower of Jesus for little over three years. We were there when he accepted. In that time, he’s planted 160 churches in five countries. “Y” has no “office.” He functions apostolically.

VOL: It is interesting that a country like Nigeria, which has one of the highest rates of clashes between Christians and Muslims, is growing at a record rate. Despite persecution and mayhem, the Anglican Church in Nigeria just added 15 new dioceses (while TEC contracts and merges dioceses). The church is fiercely evangelistic, even nationalistic, meaning they don't like outside interference from other Anglican provinces. How do you account for their style—which is very Western—growing like it is?

KRAMER: There’s a difference between “Western” and “nationalistic.” The Nigerians are on point. We shouldn’t interfere. The Gospel moves fastest when it can move naturally, organically, through natural social networks. You give the locals the essential message and the simple tools. Then let them figure out how to move it. How they form Church is between them and God. As long as it’s Biblical, they’re fine. We’re seeing, for example, the first Gospel movement in history among a particular group of Kurds. Just had a slew of baptisms this week. So excited! The turning point came when we cast vision for a Church that belonged entirely to them: A Kurdish church led by Kurds, governed by Kurds, funded by Kurds. Now remember, the Kurds are the world’s largest People Group without a country of their own. Their response was total amazement. “You mean we can have something that’s truly ours?” “Yes!” The lightbulbs went off above their Kurdish heads.  We simply promised to keep the Americans away from them. It’s their church. I always tell the locals, “I’m not your bishop. I’m not your senior pastor. I’m not the CEO. I’m your friend. Friends walk side by side, talk and do life together.” We don’t make decisions. Only suggestions.

VOL: From what I can see, it seems that real growth comes from laity sharing the gospel with family and friends in countries like Iran and China—places that have no buildings, very little money, and where believers meet in homes, often facing persecution, arrest, and imprisonment. Still, the gospel of the kingdom goes forth with great spiritual power, with many being saved. Please explain.

KRAMER: The Gospel moves fastest through ordinary people sharing naturally in their ordinary lives. We don’t need “experts.” An exalted ontologically different clergy caste will constipate Gospel movement. And, yes, the local, “ordinary” believers share within their circle of family and friends. We call this their “oikos list.” The new Believers write down the names of people they know who don’t know or who are far from God. Then they begin to pray over their lists, asking God to highlight whom He is working on. Next step is to share. Testimony, Gospel, heal the sick. Globally, 80% of people who accept Jesus come for healing or deliverance. I’m just reporting.

VOL: Christianity is still the number one religion in the world with 2.5 billion followers. It is still bigger than Islam, but Islam is nipping at its heels. Do you see this changing?

KRAMER: Islam is collapsing from within. Only 42% of Iranians now self-identify as Muslim. Nearly the same stats in Iraq.  A few years ago, there were 75,000 mosques in Iran. Today that number is 25,000 and declining. In Iran it’s now more common for us lead someone into the Kingdom from atheism than Islam. Islam only grows by birthing and immigration, not attraction. Not “conversion.” Who in their right mind would gravitate to that? We’re slugging it out in the heart of the Islamic World. There’s a huge window of Gospel opportunity in the Middle East. But windows close. Our generation must hit this window. It’s all in all the time.

VOL: The growing Islamification of Europe—especially England, France, Germany, and Sweden—is a relatively new development. One can understand why Germany might allow Muslims in over Holocaust guilt, but why the other nations? Does the trend trouble you, and what can be done about it?

KRAMER: The problem is if you give them an inch they’ll take a mile. Any concession is seen as weakness and surrender. We think we’re being “nice.” Islam see weakness. Islam is not compatible with “multiculturalism.” They have no paradigm for multi-culturalism. Not possible. You can’t give any ground. The UK, for example, refuses to acknowledge plain reality there. And they’re going to pay the price. I probably won’t be allowed back in the UK for saying this. Islam’s agenda is beyond obvious; it’s completely telegraphed, they aren’t hiding it. Islam always follows the same script. When Islam rules, there is no or at best minimal tolerance. Europe is practicing willful ignorance. Remember what Turkish president Tayyip Erdogan, full on Muslim Brotherhood, said: “Democracy is just the train we’re on until we get to our destination.” That should give you a chill. We’re playing football whilst they’re playing chess.

VOL: You are members of the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA). You must be shocked at recent revelations of leadership failures. Has this impacted global missions, or is this localized and mostly irrelevant?

KRAMER: Not at all. And I’m an, “innocent until proven guilty” guy. We need to be patient, prayerful and charitable. Be humble. God can do a lot with a humble church. It’s just not a great time to be running your mouth. Pray and fast. Pray for our bishops. Pray for our Church. The world isn’t paying the ACNA any attention. The Middle East certainly isn’t. God is still moving. I’m not saying paper over the problems. But seek Jesus in this and stay close to Him.

VOL: Western liberal Christianity has done enormous damage to the proclamation of the gospel with the embrace of sub-biblical sexual ethics and much more. The Roman Catholic Church is mired in sexual abuse, most of it homosexual in nature, from which it might never recover in the West. Does this impact your work with Muslims?

KRAMER: Yes, the Islamic street will see this and throw rocks at us. It certainly doesn’t help. But there’s also an incredible amount of hypocrisy in their (Islamic) camp. Homosexuality is rampant. I mean RAMPANT. So, I think we can just call it a draw. 

VOL: There is a lot of talk of revival in the U.S. You live part of your life in Texas—have you witnessed this? In the Northeast where I live, not so much. Many believe the next great revival will not begin with massive stadium gatherings or viral worship services. It will begin within a single heart—yours and mine. It will be, quite literally, a revival of one. Do you agree?

KRAMER: There’s a huge wave forming. Again, it just looks different. It’s ordinary people, living out the priesthood of believers, taking seriously the call to follow Jesus. To build up God’s Kingdom. Can we really say to others, “follow me … following Jesus”? And this all happens in small groups. With weekly loving accountability. Church is moving from the stage to the kitchen table. Healthy, vibrant churches will be smaller and may not even have a building. Actually, most won’t. Iran is the fastest growing Christian country in the world. They have no church buildings. No professional clergy. Ponder that. What’s emerging is going to be beautiful and robust; far healthier. But it will look very different. Can we handle that? Can we adjust to what God is doing? Are we ok with how God wants to build His Church? You don’t have to like the new normal. But you do have to reckon with it.

VOL: You are heading to (a “new country in the Middle East” let’s not say which one) for an extended period of time. As much as you are able, can you tell us what your plans are?

KRAMER: I can’t get into much detail. But let’s just say it’s well situated to springboard us around the region. Good location with a decent airport. We’ve been asked to step out of team leading and focus on training globally. So “home” airport matters. We need a better airport and a better place from which to come and go. We’re staying on offense. Despite our advancing age, we’re moving hard and fast. No let up,

VOL: Thank you for your time, Jerry. God bless you as you enter a new phase of your ministry.

KRAMER: Always a blessing to share about what God is up to. Please, please keep us all in your prayers.

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