I happen to think they actually pre-empted the conversation and the discussion. Now what I don't think should happen now [is] that the whole question of gay and lesbian people -- when we said we should listen to their experiences -- should now become the kind of dominant theological factor for the whole of the communion. Because really the communion, at the heart of it, has got to do a number of things. While on one hand upholding Christian teaching, [it] must also be very loving and kind towards gay and lesbian people because that's part of the resolution. And it must also continue to listen. And I'm not so sure, when some people speak as if the debate has been concluded, or we cannot engage with this, you're being very faithful to the resolution.

Secondly, the Windsor Report has made it very clear that the four instruments of unity -- that is, Canterbury, the Lambeth Conference, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the Primates Meeting -- should be the kind of instrument that actually allows all of us to talk. So those who now say, for example, that they don't want to come to the Lambeth Conference in 2008 because there may be people from ECUSA , well all I want to say is that church history has always taught us that churches have always disagreed. I mean, over the nature of Christ, the salvation of Christ, there were bitter, bitter, bitter disagreements in the early church, but everybody turned up at those ecumenical councils to resolve their differences. So my view would be, if you're finding this quite difficult, please do not stop the dialogue and the conversation.

Stephen Crittenden: Well indeed, you've warned -- just in the last few days --warned the conservative bishops of the global south that if they don't come to Lambeth, they'd effectively be severing themselves from the rest of the communion. That's a bit tough, isn't it?

John Sentamu: Well, the Lambeth Conference is an invitation from the Archbishop of Canterbury to all bishops of the Anglican communion to come to Lambeth and talk of matters of common concern. Now if there is already a fracture within the communion, I would have thought everybody would want to turn up in order to work out how we as a communion are going to go forward. Secondly, the Primates Meeting in Tanzania set out a fairly clear way ahead in its communique, as well as the whole question of the covenant. Now if we're going to continue to talk about the covenant at Lambeth Conference, and some people absent themselves from this, what is it that actually they think they're going to be achieving? You see, again I want to challenge them in terms of the debate about the nature of Christ and the salvation of Christ -- no church in the seven Ecumenical Councils absented themselves from it, because they were trying to represent the faith as they saw it. And only by people meeting around the table and having a conversation are you likely to find some kind of thing. I think the thing I was reacting to was a question that some people were planning an alternative Lambeth Conference, and my view was there can be no alternative Lambeth Conference, because the Lambeth Conference is always at the invitation of the Archbishop of Canterbury in line with the four instruments of unity. And I cannot see an alternative, actually, for another Lambeth Conference. I mean that's the logic for it.

Stephen Crittenden: Or if you're going to have an alternative Lambeth Conference, you can't pretend at the same time that you're not pushing the whole communion towards schism, can you?

John Sentamu: You can't. You just can't. That to me is the logic, and the Windsor process was very clear of the need first of all for the Episcopal Church as well as the church in Canada, to actually express regret. But you know it went on also and said that those Primates in other provinces should also desist from going into the other people's provinces, and that hasn't actually been observed yet, and it was re-emphasised again at the Primates' meeting in Tanzania. So my view is to say to both sides, 'Come on, hold your fire. Let's get together the communion and gather at Canterbury and go through our conversation properly with Bible study, prayer, and reflection. And don't cut yourself off at this particular point, when what is needed is listening, is discernment, is holding on to the very basic beliefs which we've all got.' And I want to say the only way that I may not turn up to a meeting is if suddenly everybody was saying that the Lambeth Conference is going to redefine the doctrine of salvation or the doctrine of the nature of Christ, or the doctrine of creation. Those are not on the agenda. Everybody believes those truths.

Stephen Crittenden: It strikes me that the church has a holiness tradition, that goes right back to St Paul, that it keeps running up against in these debates. There's almost a question of we need all to be saints, a perfectionism that people just can't live up to. This is part of the general problem that all the churches are having. It's all very well to say we're called to be saints -- most people aren't.

John Sentamu: Well a saint is a person in whom Christ lives. And our Christ, who is holy, actually lives in us in full human person. And you are called to perfection in Jesus not in terms of never failing, or never being sinful. You see, the letter of John clearly says if we say we have not sinned, we make ourselves a liar. And I don't want to be a liar. There are things in my life that are not right, there are things in my life that God is working on clearly. And what is important for me is that I must approach my brother on my knees, I must constantly pray that day by day the Holy Spirit is working within me. So holiness is not to do with sinless perfection, holiness is to respond to God's love in Jesus Christ, humbly wanting to walk the way he's calling you, often stumbling, often failing, but actually finding yourself deeply loved by him.

Stephen Crittenden: Archbishop, I see the Sunday Times newspaper has described you as 'the Archbishop of Canterbury in waiting.' It's not going very well for Rowan Williams, is it?

John Sentamu: It's going very well for him.

Stephen Crittenden: Is it true that he's thinking of stepping down for you?

John Sentamu: No way. I mean, you see, I'm one year older than Rowan. The communion is very blessed to have him as our Archbishop, and I have 100 per cent support for Rowan. I hope if I stayed in my job for the next 12 years, because he's older than me, he will still be there for 13 years, and I'll continue still to work with him very closely. He's a man of incredible stature and to those who say that I'm an Archbishop in waiting, I'm sorry, they're going to be disappointed. And the other thing is, in Africa we've got this wonderful saying, that anybody who wants to aim high for a particular position, they're going to be disappointed and they should know what happens: 'The higher the baboon climbs the tree, the more it reveals its rather less attractive parts.'

Stephen Crittenden: That's a very good metaphor. Tell me, there's been an interesting debate going on recently in the Church of England -- the Bishop of Rochester, Michael Nazir-Ali has been one party in it -- suggesting that the Church of England is institutionally racist. And I think you've taken part in that debate, too, haven't you?

John Sentamu: Well the debate I've taken is... I think English language is quite interesting. When you say the church is institutionally racist, you're implying it's got racist policies, but to say there is institutional racism within the church, yes, that much I'll accept. In other words, if I may use an analogy -- and, again, I don't want to offend those who smoke, because I don't intend to offend anybody -- smoking: you could go into a room when people have been smoking and there isn't anybody you can see in sight who's smoking, and you know there has been smoking. That's what I call institutional racism: you know there are some behaviours that are unacceptable, but you can't quite pinpoint anybody who's done it.

Stephen Crittenden: So are you suggesting that the fact that you and he are bishops is a sign that things are beginning to change?

John Sentamu: Well as you know, you and I know, one swallow does not make a summer, does it? And all I can say is that I am very grateful to the Church of England for the position they've actually given me to be part of its life, but I would still want to say that as a church we need to hold the mirror of our congregations before ourselves, and what we're still going to see is a church that has got a lot of minority ethnic people in its pews and they must also be seen in its leadership. And I think that's very true about women -- when you've got a congregation where the majority are women and you don't see this in its leadership, something has got to be done about it. Not in a sort of gender equality, but in terms of saying, 'By the way, the church is less gifted when all its members are not serving its ministry throughout its ranks.'

Stephen Crittenden: Where do you stand on the question of disestablishment of the Church of England?

John Sentamu: I think the establishment of the Church of England as it is by law established, I happen to think at this particular point in time, its role in the nation, its role in the church, I don't think would be understood what it is that people are really if it was disestablished. I'm one of those who believes that actually the establishment provided the Church of England, sees this as an opportunity for engagement and service, not in terms of power and privilege, I'm for it. The day that ceases to be the case, then I'll be the one who says 'Where are we going?' So at the moment, as a bishop within it, all I see my job as is purely being of service to the communities, the nation -- and in that position it's right. And also if you disestablish, you probably may be saying that God is no longer at the heart of the nation, and the last population census actually revealed that 72 per cent of the people in England said they were Christians.

Stephen Crittenden: On the other hand, it's also true, isn't it, that more people are going to the mosque each week than are going to churches -- certainly the Church of England.

John Sentamu: Yes but the whole question of the Church of England as a service to the nation, you see... Take when there are great celebrations; where do people go as a nation? The Church of England. When there are tragedies, where do people go? The Church of England. When there are deaths in any place, where do most people go? The Church of England. When there are festivals, where do people go? The Church of England. So its service to the nation, to hold before it a spiritual dimension which is necessary, I actually think is important. And it's interesting that actually quite a lot of my Jewish and Muslim and Hindu and Sikh friends resolutely want to defend the establishment of the Church of England because they say, 'You stand there to speak for us when the going gets very tough.'

Stephen Crittenden: There's a constellation of issues associated with this question, and let me just finish by asking you about two. The first is, the proposal to reform the House of Lords to make it democratically elected. Now presumably that would mean that Archbishops like you would be out forever?

John Sentamu: Well, they will have to come across a difficulty of the nature of the establishment of the Church of England. It is by law, and by law Lord Spirituals have a place in the House of Lords.

Stephen Crittenden: Surely it's ridiculous in a modern democracy and a multi-religious society that bishops of the Church of England have a right to sit in the parliament?

John Sentamu: Why is it ridiculous? You see, the constitutional arrangements of the church, of the country, at the moment -- that's what they are. You can't overnight simply change the constitutional arrangements because somebody somewhere thinks they're ridiculous. It's only ridiculous if you don't realise the establishment, actually, of the constitution -- that the monarch and the church by law are established. And unless you change the law it isn't ridiculous. And I happen to think actually it's only ridiculous if bishops don't actually do the job which they were given: to hold up before the nation the need for God and the need for spiritual dimensions of life. And I don't think that actually is ridiculous.

---The Most Rev. John Sentamu is the Archbishop of York