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Exclusives : LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
Posted by David Virtue on 2008/11/2 1:20:00 (4457 reads)

LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard

News Analysis

By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
11/3/2008

Progressive evangelicals in the Church of England simply don't get it. They believe, falsely, that when they talk of the rich diversity of the Anglican Communion that they are dealing with men and women of basic good will. Herein lies the first fallacy.

The second fallacy is that all theologies and opinions, based on a misguided understanding of via media, can be reconciled within the communion and that the instruments of unity are capable of holding it together under the present Archbishop of Canterbury.

The third fallacy is that a Covenant will be written that will hold the communion together.

The fourth fallacy is that the present trajectory can somehow be reversed if the more (allegedly) strident right (now called Fundamentalists) can be made to see reason and agree to return and come under the diverse umbrella of Anglicanism.

Consider then the essay by the Rev. Dr. Andrew Goddard, Tutor in Christian Ethics at Trinity College, Bristol, England, and a member of the Leadership Team of Fulcrum - a liberal evangelical blog.

In a well articulated, even brilliant essay on the current crisis in the Anglican Communion Goddard offers four challenges and poses four questions, post Lambeth.

1. Are the developments in North America acceptable within the life of the Communion?
2. If not, has the Communion, through its Instruments, done sufficient to respond to these developments?
3. If not, are there signs that the Communion is now capable of responding?
4. If not, what form of realignment is necessary and what is the role of GAFCON in this?

On the first question, Goddard admits that developments in North America are unacceptable within the life of the Communion. "That has been the consistent position of the Communion over these last five years through the Archbishop of Canterbury, the ACC, three Primates' meetings and the Windsor Report. The new situation now is that this has been reaffirmed clearly at Lambeth this summer with the renewed commitment to the Windsor moratoria. For most Anglicans, particularly in the Global South, the developments are wholly unacceptable in substance because they are contrary to biblical teaching on sexuality. For others, the problem lies more in terms of the process and the fact that fundamental ecclesiological principles - as articulated in Windsor - have been violated. Either way, the mind of the Communion is clearly opposed to what has happened and is continuing to happen in North America. However, it is also becoming clear that a significant minority of bishops and dioceses within North America do not accept this judgment and are determined to proceed."

Goddard is correct. These developments are wholly unacceptable. The Windsor Report has been violated, and the actions of liberal and revisionist bishops within TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada have torn the fabric of the communion. He is also correct that both Anglo-Catholics and Evangelicals are determined to proceed out of TEC and the ACofC and that there is no possible reversal on that score.

On the second question, has the Communion, through its Instruments, done sufficient to respond to these developments he offers this observation: The Communion response has taken various forms.
* the Lambeth Commission leading to the Windsor Report and its proposed moratoria
* the Panel of Reference to address conflict within provinces
* the rapid progress on a covenant
* the repeated requests of Primates' meetings and ACC to TEC's General Convention and House of Bishops
* the ABC's non-invitation of bishops to the Lambeth Conference
* the Windsor Continuation Group
* the new proposals at Lambeth for a Pastoral Forum and a Faith and Order Advisory Commission Goddard then goes on to opine that while the actions in North America are unacceptable, "it has been very distressing to see in some circles a spirit of cynicism and impatience with this process which has led to its undermining."

Here Goddard is dead wrong. If there is "cynicism" and "impatience" it is precisely because orthodox Episcopalians and Anglicans have for over 40 years waited patiently for The Episcopal Church to turn around but with absolutely no success. Furthermore, they have not seen one shred of evidence that the North American leadership plans any change in direction now or in the foreseeable future. In fact, the opposite is true. Mrs. Jefferts Schori recently reiterated that she expects other openly gay and lesbian priests to present themselves as bishops in TEC and she will go right ahead and consecrate them. Robinson was only the first. If that isn't in your face, then I don't know what is. How can Goddard possibly say the orthodox are impatient? They are being killed off one diocese, one parish and one priest at a time. By the end of this year, there will be no Anglo-Catholic dioceses left in TEC. What few parishes remain around the country will in time leave TEC or be swallowed up by the Moloch denomination.

Goddard does admit, to his credit, that the last five years have been a period of "too little, too late".

He admits there has been a rejection of the Communion's moratoria by a significant number of bishops and dioceses, that realignment with other provinces is happening, and that legal actions in secular courts and depositions against the faithful are occurring. He concludes that during post-Lambeth, the Communion Instruments have not been able to respond effectively to the crisis as it has developed over the last five years.

But then Goddard says this, "Some will conclude that is because of a lack of will, particularly on the part of the Anglican Communion Office and the Archbishop of Canterbury. While there may be an element of truth in that, and certainly mistakes have been made by the Instruments, I do not think it a fair explanation. Furthermore, as Christians we need to be very careful about alleging bad faith on the part of fellow Christians, particularly those called by God to positions of authority in the church. The answer is I think quite simply that the Communion Instruments are, to coin a phrase, 'not fit for purpose' when faced with this sort of action by a member church."

Here he is wrong. He says we should not allege "bad faith" on the part of fellow Christians. That might be true in the Church of England it is not true in TEC. In TEC we have bishops like Charles Bennison, Jefferts Schori, Orris Walker, Jon Bruno, Gene Robinson and dozens of others who have no real faith or play-act as though they do, picking and choosing what part of the creed they believe in while picking from the ethical and moral smorgasbord as though it were a buffet of choices. There is a ton of bad faith to go around in TEC and it is only increasing. Pro-Gay bishops openly flaunt their sexual theology on Gay Pride days on public streets in major cities, something that would probably never happen in England. Orthodox Ordinands from orthodox seminaries like TSM are NOT welcome in liberal dioceses and are in fact told not to apply. Who's demonstrating bad faith here?

Goddard says the Communion Instruments (he means the Anglican Consultative Council) are "not fit for purpose." While he may think that, they certainly don't. For the last six General Conventions that I have attended, first John Peterson and then Kenneth Kearon, ACC leaders came to TEC's conventions and bear-hugged Frank Griswold saying publicly they didn't expect TEC to sign off on a Covenant till 2012 or even later. They know full well that no covenant will ever satisfy all the provinces. The idea is to wear down the orthodox till they roll over. Consider that at one time 22 primates would not take Holy Communion with North American liberal Primates. Through the relentless and tireless efforts of pansexual organizations like Changing Attitude (UK) and Integrity (USA) that number has been whittled down to eight. Is Goddard not aware of this or is he reading only the liberal press like the Church Times and Guardian newspaper?

The third question Goddard poses is this: Are there signs that the Communion is now capable of responding?

Goddard confesses at the outset that there have been "deep concerns and deep disappointment post-Lambeth." Then he admits that ultimately Lambeth as Lambeth failed to address the Communion's current parlous and perilous state and to advance the necessary reform of the Instruments if they are to respond adequately to where we are now." He then admits that the speed with which events are developing more and more falls back on the office and person of the Archbishop of Canterbury.

This is all true. But then he quotes the ABC as saying, "We may not have put an end to all our problems - but the pieces are on the board".

This is false. The pieces are not all on board. In fact, a number of new pieces are in the making and they are definitely not "on board" and never will be. There is a new North American Anglican Province aborning. This is not a "piece" and there is no evidence that Williams will recognize it, when it is. (Think AMiA in the year 2000 and then Archbishop of Canterbury George Carey and Frank Griswold). Furthermore, there are Anglican bodies like AMiA, CANA, Uganda and Kenya church plants in North America that are not "on board." There is the Anglican Network in Canada (ANiC) and the Anglican Coalition in Canada (ACiC) that are not on board.

Goddard's final "piece" is a proposed Anglican Covenant whose responses are being worked on from Lambeth and being undertaken in Singapore by the Covenant Design Group.

Goddard writes, "Here, there is the prospect of a development which will not only assist in the current crisis but provide a firm basis for a new way of being a global communion, a new pattern of life together based on shared affirmations, explicit mutual commitments and an agreed procedure for conflict resolution and discipline. As we think of life after Lambeth, that opportunity must be front and centre."

This is a fiction. Just recently Mrs. Jefferts Schori took off the table any talk of a Covenant at TEC's 2009 General Convention. Furthermore, a slew of archbishops have already cast doubt on it ever bringing the communion together. That includes Nigerian Primate Peter Akinola and Uganda Primate Henry Luke Orombi. Together they make up more than 50% of the entire Anglican Communion. The distinguished Evangelical Theologian and Anglican patriarch, Dr. J.I. Packer has also indicated it will be dead on arrival.

Are we then to believe that Goddard has it right when he thinks that TEC's Presiding Bishop will sign off on something that demands she fall in line with the majority of primates in the Anglican Communion? This is a complete fiction. The Episcopal Church will never, never, never sign away its independence on anything written in a Covenant, especially on sexuality issues that affects their right to do exactly what they please, and when and where they please.

The ivory tower Goddard resides in is isolated and insulated from reality. Those of us in the trenches see things with, I believe, more clarity. We hear the noise behind the words and we see the body language; he doesn't.

What the HOB recently did to Bishop Bob Duncan ripped apart clear canon law. The HOB's willful abandonment of procedures, - verdict first, then sentence - but no trial, indicates the depth of hatred the HOB has for an orthodox bishop.

The much bally-hoed Pastoral Forum has never made it off the ground. Who is going to enforce anything against The Episcopal Church? It will never happen. It is dead in the water.

Goddard rips GAFCON, whose mere existence he clearly resents. He said this, "If GAFCON seeks to extend and develop its confessional Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans as some sort of badge of orthodoxy and to continue its excessively hostile and deeply flawed rejection of the Anglican covenant then it risks becoming a tool creating further tears/schisms in the fabric of the Communion rather than a means of repair and renewal. That would be a real tragedy given the vibrant missional faith, biblical vision and commitment to the gospel that is present in GAFCON."

This is unspeakable rubbish. GAFCON IS a badge of orthodoxy in the eye of a revisionist hurricane which is ripping and tearing the communion apart. Here are the facts:

* It is the liberals and revisionists who have caused the problems in the Communion, not the orthodox.
* It is the liberals and revisionists who don't want the orthodox around anymore, or if they do, they want the orthodox to roll over and play in their non-biblical sand box and keep paying the bills.
* The liberals have "another gospel" that St. Paul warned the Galatian Church about. The orthodox, who have felt alienated and ridiculed (by the likes of Spong) for the past 30-40 years, can no longer live with it.
* It is the orthodox who desperately want to keep and protect their flocks from hearing and obeying a gospel that is no gospel.
* Orthodox bishops took an oath and swore to uphold the faith and "to banish and drive out false teaching from the church" (1662 ordination vow) which Goddard apparently thinks they should not now do. Believe me, when I tell you they have tried but with no success. Consider the resolution B001 submitted by Quincy Bishop Keith Ackerman in GC2003 asking the HOB to Endorse Certain Historic Anglican Doctrines and Policies of the faith. THEY COULDN'T DO IT. The resolution was defeated. Exit "sound doctrine", enter Gene Robinson.

It is also true that no presentment would ever be laid, of a doctrinal nature, against a bishop like Spong or ever make it past the Title IV Review Committee to come to trial. No one believes enough in the HOB to bring up charges and go after him. Consider the lame response they gave to Bishop James Pike.

Pennsylvania Bishop Charles E. Bennison was deposed for covering up his brother's sexual abuse of a minor, but his worse sin is that he could not uphold "the Faith once for all delivered to the saints" when asked to by Fr. David L. Moyer. If the theologically and ecclesiologically weak Standing Committee had brought such charges against Bennison, they would have been laughed out of court.

Goddard says the realigners of Common Cause are a minority of the orthodox within TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada and so the six GAFCON Primates are a minority within the wider Global South coalition. Now that all depends on what you mean by "minority."

The six GAFCON Primates make up the vast majority of the Anglican Communion. Five of them from Africa include Nigeria - 25 million, Uganda - 9.2 million, Kenya - 4 million, Rwanda - 2 million, Tanzania - 2 million, make up 70% or more of the Anglican Communion.

Furthermore, the last of the Anglo-Catholic dioceses (Quincy and Ft. Worth) will leave TEC in the next two weeks. Evangelicals in TEC can still be found in dioceses like Central Florida, Dallas, South Carolina, Louisiana, Western Kansas and Albany. The larger evangelical cardinal parishes like Christ Church in Plano, Texas and St. Bartholomew's in New York have already left with many more leaving each month. The Diocese of Florida has seen the virtual departure of all its evangelicals even though the bishop has retained the properties. In Central Florida (a solidly evangelical diocese) has seen large cardinal parishes defect to the Southern Cone.

Goddard is not accurate in his assessment of the North American situation. Once the new North American Anglican Province is in play, there is no saying how big this will become. It is estimated that at start up it could consist of four dioceses and 500 parishes or more. That is no small change. Bear in mind also that the size of the average Episcopal Church is now under 70 with the average age at 65. (In the Diocese of Albany, an orthodox diocese the average size congregation is 39).

The long term prospects for The Episcopal Church are not good. The Episcopal Church's seminaries are in serious retrenchment; the denomination's city-based cathedrals have hundreds of empty pews and are leaking money. The Washington National Cathedral recently fired 30 staff, is a case in point.

Finally, Goddard wants to hang together because, as he puts it, "to reject further fragmentation, and standing in solidarity with others here in England and across the Communion who are committed to biblical teaching, and supporting the covenant process and all other means of reforming, healing and revitalizing the Anglican Communion and serving God's mission in the world."

But that day is done. The covenant process will never bring forth a document that everyone will agree on or sign off on. Earlier this month, the Rev. Canon Gregory Cameron, deputy secretary general of the Anglican Consultative Council, told delegates to the Diocese of Western Louisiana that individual dioceses would be given the opportunity to commit to the covenant if their province fails to do so. So if TEC won't sign off on it, then an individual diocese could. Does he know what would happen to a bishop whose diocese signed off on it, but the HOB did not? Jefferts Schori and her legal pit bull David Booth Beers would have his head on a platter. Goddard is totally naive about the heart of darkness that is TEC. Cameron has to believe in TEC because 60% of the ACC's budget is paid for by the Americans.

God's "mission" that Goddard talks about is not The Great Commission. It is Jefferts Schori's Millennium Development Goals (MDGS's) which she believes are the church's mission to save the world.

Recent statements by REFORM in England indicate they are ready to blow holes through the Church of England's alleged unity. Their leaders are encouraging the House of Bishops to develop "English solutions" for the provision of alternative oversight for 25 congregations in the UK who are currently in impaired communion with or being denied oversight from their bishop, and for many others who would be unwilling to receive oversight from a female bishop in the future. They are calling for Evangelical Anglicans to come under other more orthodox overseas bishops. That is not good news to Goddard's ears.

Given the ruthlessness with which those who have stood against the progressive agenda of TEC and the ACC have been treated - lately symbolized by the deposition of the Bishop of Pittsburgh - the possibility of achieving the Windsor Continuation Group's goal of "holding" for eventual reunion is remote indeed. Moreover, there is scarcely a parish or diocese that has endured the travail of separation (whether forced or chosen) that would not describe the North American Anglican scene as characterized by "two irreconcilable religions."

The notion of "healing and revitalizing" the church that Goddard talks about will never happen. There are two very different gospels, "two irreconcilable religions" being proclaimed in today's Anglican Communion. For the authentic gospel to thrive, it must separate itself from the dead vine. Only when it does so, will new and living branches break forth from a new tree with roots in a different soil, the soil of a revived Biblical faith.

END

To read Dr. Goddard's, "Life After Lambeth" click here: http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/page.cfm?ID=355

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Poster Thread
warmac9999
Posted: 2008/11/3 17:14  Updated: 2008/11/3 17:14
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/2/16
From:
Posts: 1463
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
The outright denial of God's truth will signal the end of TEC and the liberal revisionist churches throughout the Christian world. At this point, there are, as David Virtue proclaims, "two irreconcilable religions" within the Anglican Communion. The revisionist religion will damage the Anglican brand if something is not done to separate the religions.
unitarian
Posted: 2008/11/3 20:17  Updated: 2008/11/3 20:17
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/12/31
From: Bryn Mawr, PA
Posts: 307
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
This is very good indeed, even for Dr DV. Problem is, no path of least resistance exists for those who wish it would all go away. Other problem is that the orthodox did not start the conflict, though they are now turning out to be the stronger side and likely to perdure while the new religion goes the way of most new religions. I thought this passage was particularly good:

"If there is "cynicism" and "impatience" it is precisely because orthodox Episcopalians and Anglicans have for over 40 years waited patiently for The Episcopal Church to turn around but with absolutely no success. Furthermore, they have not seen one shred of evidence that the North American leadership plans any change in direction now or in the foreseeable future. In fact, the opposite is true. Mrs. Jefferts Schori recently reiterated that she expects other openly gay and lesbian priests to present themselves as bishops in TEC and she will go right ahead and consecrate them. Robinson was only the first. If that isn't in your face, then I don't know what is. How can Goddard possibly say the orthodox are impatient? They are being killed off one diocese, one parish and one priest at a time. By the end of this year, there will be no Anglo-Catholic dioceses left in TEC. What few parishes remain around the country will in time leave TEC or be swallowed up by the Moloch denomination."
otispage2
Posted: 2008/11/3 20:50  Updated: 2008/11/3 20:54
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/3/14
From:
Posts: 615
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
warmac9999 states, "The outright denial of God's truth will signal the end of TEC and the liberal revisionist churches throughout the Christian world."

Respectfully, warmac9999, and with sincere condolences to all who remain in TEC, the outright denial of God's truth has signaled the end of TEC.

Wake up, Episcopalians. Wake up sacred Saints in the Communion. TEC is lost to and governed by homosexual activists, gay-lesbian-bisexuals, in and out of the proverbial closet.

GAFCON, et al, and the residual orthodox, resolutely sort out what is left of a once great church.

Face it. The patient (TEC) is dead. It drags to the grave those sincere Christians who by choice, ignorance or indifference are trapped in its unholy demise, a function of being "given up" to their "uncleanness" by God:

Romans 1:24-27:

"24 ¶ Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

25 who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 ¶ For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet."
russedav
Posted: 2008/11/4 7:04  Updated: 2008/11/4 7:15
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/6/8
From: Ft. Wayne, IN
Posts: 289
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
Sadly dear David and most other I read here are very long on REACTING TO/AGAINST episcopagan evil and very short on ACTING ACCORDING TO God's Perfect, Supraerrant* Word, popular among many knee-jerk "fundamentalists" whose own "fundamentals" or more usually their (mis)interpretations thereof ironically come to replace the very Word of God they often decry others for abandoning since what they hate becomes the guide, not God and His Perfect Word, such that they're progressively led away by their enemy and hate for it, too often (not always, as Romans 14:4 says: Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.) no longer led by God or truth as is clearly the case for many now where the wrath of man is not working God's righteousness (James 1:20), something with which I struggle every hour.

*Supraerrant. Because most "inerrancy" promoters even all the way back to (in)famous B. B. Warfield, have gullibly hypocritically actually rejected ultimate Biblical authority (no matter their attempted spin coverup) for the fatuous delusions of pseudo-science claptrap, I have coined the largely presuppositionalist "supraerrant" to counter the "inerrant" error whose proponents sinfully allow other positions on origins than the only Biblically or rational one of young-earth creation. I won't try to defend my charge other than to challenge anyone to show me another position that's either Biblical or rational I can't easily shred in short order since in my thirty+ years I've read none of them that are sane, rather just an embarrassment to Christians who strangely prefer to take the Bible seriously and not call Jesus a liar for his Mark 10:6 declaration that summarily voids evolution and "intelligent design" and for which all will give an account in the Judgment, sadly including most gullible professing "christians" who've largely fallen for the snake-oil salesmen running most denominations and cemeteries, uh seminaries, exhaustively refuted at www.answersinGenesis.org and www.trueorign.org for the few with eyes to see or ears to hear.
Dominic
Posted: 2008/11/5 16:25  Updated: 2008/11/5 16:25
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/7/10
From: London
Posts: 285
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
David rightly says: "The second fallacy is that all theologies and opinions, based on a misguided understanding of via media, can be reconciled within the communion..."

This is why websites such as this should be open to doctrinal discussion - in order that we can highlight the crucial differences that exist between Anglo-Catholics and Evangelicals; and having highlighted them we can then progress in our own directions, rather than tied to together in a dangerous (for all members) partnership.
maxthejust
Posted: 2008/11/5 19:42  Updated: 2008/11/5 19:42
Quite a regular
Joined: 2008/3/17
From: Alaska
Posts: 41
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
Dominic is right.
Those who want the 39 articles should take them and go in one direction. Those who don't want the should go in another direction. They never can be an instrument of unity. British bayonets are what made them acceptable in England. Without the bayonets they are now considered relics in England.
“In America, after the war for independence, one third of the country had to leave and they took with them, the 1662 bcp, the 39 Articles, and the Elizabethan settlement. They are not coming back.“
A sales pitch for something that is culturally repugnant from England is nuts.
volboy
Posted: 2008/11/6 10:59  Updated: 2008/11/6 10:59
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2005/2/10
From:
Posts: 23
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
At the risk of appearing to be very uninformed and ignorant, I would appreciate some insight regarding the generally accepted differences between Anglo-Catholics and Evangelicals in the context of Anglicanism. I gather that the term "Evangelicans" came into use during the reformation as applying to those reformers who were struggling against the Roman church and that Anglo-Cathocism is related to the Oxford Movement. However, what is the modern interpretation of these terms?
chaps
Posted: 2008/11/6 12:36  Updated: 2008/11/6 12:36
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/2/11
From:
Posts: 446
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
volboy,

You're asking about something that is very confusing to a lot of people, so please don't feel that you're uninformed and ignorant. Here's a link to the “Field guide to Anglican churchmanship”: < http://home.att.net/~sergei592/churchmanship.html >. I hope you find it helpful–Anglicanism can be a bit like baseball: unless you're on the field or in the dugout, “You can't tell the players without a scorecard.”

Blessings,

chaps+
tinpipes
Posted: 2008/11/6 20:03  Updated: 2008/11/6 20:03
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2004/3/23
From: way South
Posts: 39
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
"The liberals have "another gospel" that St. Paul warned the Galatian Church about. The orthodox, who have felt alienated and ridiculed (by the likes of Spong) for the past 30-40 years, can no longer live with it."

This is THE DEAL-BREAKER. There is no there, there. A house divided, et cetera! Why cannot so called "progressive evangelicals" understand this? Why cannot the AbC? Why cannot the ACC, the PB, the revisionists? Parishioners have it figured, and most of them are leaving or have left. For crying out loud, get over it, deal with it, and do something! AAAARRRRGGGHHH!
volboy
Posted: 2008/11/7 11:34  Updated: 2008/11/7 11:34
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2005/2/10
From:
Posts: 23
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
Chaps,
Thank you for the link, but it did not really go far enough to answer my questions. I am interested in the present-day A-C vs. Evangelical views on such things as the 39 Articles, sacramental theology, and so forth. I would be most grateful for any other additional information.

Volboy
chaps
Posted: 2008/11/7 14:16  Updated: 2008/11/7 14:16
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/2/11
From:
Posts: 446
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
volboy,

A comparison of “the present-day A-C vs. Evangelical views” would indeed be very useful, but would need to compare subgroups of both A-C's and Evo's because, as the New World Encyclopedia states, “The spectrum of Anglican beliefs and practice is too large to be fit into these labels” (“Anglicanism”)–many people today take an eclectic approach as if Anglicanism were a Chinese restaurant, choosing beliefs and practices from column 'A' on some issues but from columns 'B' and 'C' on other issues, so it's very difficult to make generalizations. I haven't seen anything that detailed, but I'll keep looking.

Blessings,

chaps+
volboy
Posted: 2008/11/7 15:25  Updated: 2008/11/7 15:25
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2005/2/10
From:
Posts: 23
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
Chaps+,

That is precisely the point with me because I read articles about Anglicans that talk about "Evangelicals" doing so-and-so and "Anglo-Catholics" doing this-and-that! What is it about these two groups of folks that leads them (and others) to assume that their belief sets are such that they can be labeled as belonging to one particular group or the other?

If I may be so bold as to make a simplistic stab at it, would one difference be that "Anglo-Catholics" are more likely to rely on the "church" to interpret Scripture and are more prone to subjugate themselves to "church teachings" and "church authorities"? On the other hand, "Evangelicals" are more prone to subscribe to "sola Scriptura" and to challenge "official" church digma?

Blessings to you also,

Volboy
chaps
Posted: 2008/11/8 1:25  Updated: 2008/11/8 8:28
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/2/11
From:
Posts: 446
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
Volboy,

Your “stab” seems correct to me–one basic difference between Anglo-Catholics and Evangelicals comes down to the issue of authority. Roman Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglo-Catholics all tend to view Scripture differently than Evangelicals. Like Evangelicals, they accept the authority of Scripture, but they see Scripture as part of Holy Tradition (the Deposit of the Faith), so they interpret Scripture consistently with Holy Tradition and follow Holy Tradition where Scripture is silent. Evangelicals tend to reject Holy Tradition altogether and only use clearer passages of Scripture to interpret less clear passages of Scripture. Roman Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglo-Catholics all tend to accept the Church's spiritual authority for the proper interpretation of Scripture, but Evangelicals tend to reject that in favor of each individual's spiritual authority. Roman Catholic and Orthodox doctrine is highly consistent because each Church has a process and magisterium for deciding the proper interpretation of Scripture. Anglo-Catholic doctrine is inconsistent because it lacks a process and magisterium, although this is somewhat mitigated by Anglo-Catholics tending to look at the reasoning and decisions of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Evangelical doctrine is highly inconsistent because each individual uses his or her own process and acts as his or her own magisterium.

Pax,

chaps+
boggy
Posted: 2008/11/8 13:29  Updated: 2008/11/8 13:29
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 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
We can fix ignorance but nobody can fix stupid. The episcopagan church is dead. Lets move on.
chaps
Posted: 2008/11/8 13:39  Updated: 2008/11/8 13:39
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 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
Volboy,

Here are a few things you might enjoy:

What is “Anglo-Catholic”?
http://anglicanmusic.blogspot.com/2007/12/what-is.html

Preserving traditional faith and worship
http://anglicanmusic.blogspot.com/2007/11/preserving-traditional-faith-and.html

A Time Line of Church History
http://www.saintignatiuschurch.org/timeline.html

Timeline of Orthodox Christianity in the British Isles
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~chantancestry/AngloSaxons.html

The Fall Of Orthodox England
http://uk.geocities.com/guildfordian2002/AngloSaxon/FallOrthodoxEngland.htm#_ftn218

Holy Endings and Beginnings
http://www.antiochian.org/node/17159

Pax et bonum,

chaps+
Liberty
Posted: 2008/11/10 0:38  Updated: 2008/11/10 0:38
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 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
Russedav, what do you make of Ecclesiastes 10:2 ?
It is interesting that in all languages Right is right and Left overtly means wrong or has the connotation of being wrong. On the O'Reilly Factor, Dennis Kucinich wished to hide behind patriotism as he asserted, "the eagle has a left wing and a right wing." There are countless idiocies in our modern age, not just in seminaries.
Anonymous
Posted: 2008/11/11 3:07  Updated: 2008/11/11 3:07
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
David rightly says: "The second fallacy is that all theologies and opinions, based on a misguided understanding of via media, can be reconciled within the communion..."

This is why websites such as this should be open to doctrinal discussion - in order that we can highlight the crucial differences that exist between Anglo-Catholics and Evangelicals; and having highlighted them we can then progress in our own directions, rather than tied to together in a dangerous (for all members) partnership.
-----------------
Dominic, sage commentary by you. We need an open discussion between AC's and Confessional Anglicans. Let the matters be laid out openly, without the mish-mash, confusions, contradictions, compromises, and general wimperies/fudgeries.

Then, let each go their separate ways. On my view, the AC's need to form their own group while Confessional, Catholic and Protestant Churchmen need to organize globally.

It is Veterans' Weekend here. A tough weekend here for this former officer of the USMC and USN. In those organizations, Dominic, I met men.

Veitch
Anonymous
Posted: 2008/11/11 3:10  Updated: 2008/11/11 3:50
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
Chaps:

U posted What is “Anglo-Catholic”?
http://anglicanmusic.blogspot.com/2007/12/what-is.html re: AC's.

Puleeze, an SSC Churchman? These folks, SSC, covertly, determinatively, forcefully advanced anti-Protestantism in the UK. SSC, I think not.

As advised elsewhere, read 160 recommended volumes of primary sources from the Reformers.

Veitch
ptay12
Posted: 2008/11/11 11:33  Updated: 2008/11/11 11:33
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 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
The reformers are not a primary source.
chaps
Posted: 2008/11/11 11:41  Updated: 2008/11/11 11:41
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 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
Veitch,

I included that link along with others to show the variety of ways the term "Anglo-Catholic" can be used and the variety of opinions, not as an endorsement. You need to get over your allergies so that you can enjoy some fresh air. I wouldn't waste my time reading 160 volumes of secondary sources on Christianity that are recommended by those who seek to preserve the human traditions of the Reformers -- invest your time reading the primary sources on the Holy Tradition, especially the Ante-Nicene Fathers.

Blessings,

chaps+
JasonWard
Posted: 2008/11/11 14:15  Updated: 2008/11/11 14:15
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 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
Sorry, I was very slightly annoyed by the previous post, and would like to just make an amendment.

I love the ANF and the reformers, and in the sense that you complain about "secondary" documents, they are all alike "secondary" to our "primary" texts in the bible.

Though it is wise to assume that people closer in time and culture to the original writing of the bible will have a better handle on it, it is frankly Platonic to assume they are always more biblical than anyone subsequent. I would argue, for example, that the reformers understood some passages of scripture better than some of the ANF- eg. the obsession with allegorical approach- and since no text outside scripture carries God's authority and infallibility, we MUST assume that even the greats in the ANF make mistakes.

The reason for going back to the reformers is
1) This is the crucible from which the Anglican church and the 39 articles are forged from the transforming of the Catholic church, so they ARE primary for the C of E and therefore Global Anglicanism
2) Among many evangelicals the reformers and the second generation reformers up to the puritans represent a theological high water mark in anglicanism.

Much love in Christ, Jason
ptay12
Posted: 2008/11/11 17:55  Updated: 2008/11/11 17:55
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 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
The puritans had the King Midas touch in reverse and destroyed everything that they touched. Fortunately they are extinct as the dodo bird. The reformers that you mentioned meant well and knew lot lot about religion but they simply were clueless when it came to Christianity. On the bright side they did free Europe from the Vatican.
chaps
Posted: 2008/11/12 17:43  Updated: 2008/11/12 17:45
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 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
Jason,

I appreciate your sincerity, but you are sincerely wrong in your understanding of what are 'primary' and 'secondary' sources regarding the Christian Faith. A 'primary' source is defined as a document, recording, or other source of information (paper, picture, etc) that was created at the time being studied by an authoritative source, usually one with direct personal knowledge of the events being described. A 'secondary' source is one which cites, comments on, or builds upon 'primary' sources. Therefore, the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers (and some other things) are 'primary' sources regarding the Christian Faith along with the Scriptures which they canonized. The Reformers wrote more than a thousand years after the early Christian era, had no direct personal knowledge of that era, and their writings cite, comment on, and attempt to build upon the 'primary' sources of that era, so they are 'secondary' sources regarding the Christian Faith.

The issue of 'primary' versus 'secondary' sources goes far beyond whether “it is wise to assume that people closer in time and culture to the original writing of the Bible will have a better handle on it”–you really don't have any other choice with regard to the authentic Christian Faith. Accepting the Faith described in the Scriptures means you also accept the Faith of those who canonized those Scriptures–if you reject the Faith of those who canonized the Scriptures, there is no basis for considering the Scriptures inspired and authoritative. But some people don't accept the entire Faith described in the Scriptures, so they also reject some or all of the Faith described by the Ante-Nicene Fathers. The best known of the Reformers, Martin Luther, rejected part of the Faith described in the Scriptures–he called the Epistle of St James the “epistle of straw” and tried to have it removed from the Canon of Scripture because he disagreed with some of what it teaches, so he also rejected parts of the Faith described by the Ante-Nicene Fathers. How would we react today if a preacher advocated removing a Book from the Bible–would we believe anything that preacher taught? I hope we would have the common sense to realize that he was very full of himself instead of the Holy Spirit, ignore everything he taught, and have nothing more to do with him. That's how we should respond today to Luther's teachings–have the good sense to set them aside and ignore them rather than continuing to try to figure out which parts are heretical and which parts aren't.

Your assertion that “the Reformers understood some passages of Scripture better than some of the ANF,” misses the point and is potentially heretical. First of all, the authentic Christian Faith is “that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all” (Vincentian Canon)–a *consensus* of the Fathers–so it's not a question of whether one of the Reformers had greater insight on one passage of Scripture than one of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, whether you think some of them had an “obsession with the allegorical approach,” or whether “even the greats in the ANF make mistakes”: it's a question of whether the particular Reformer's teaching on the passage in question was consistent with the *consensus* of the Ante-Nicene Fathers. If it's consistent, fine. If it's not, it's heretical. But what if there isn't any consensus of the Fathers or they are silent on a topic? That brings us to the second point: “the faith ... was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3)–there were no new Christian teachings after the Apostolic Era. Therefore, any teaching–regardless of whether it dates from the Reformation or it's modern–lacking a consensus or unknown in the early Christian era must be presumed false: contrary to what some in the Episcopal Church assert, God isn't “doing a new thing.”

You need to be more careful about negative propositions. Aside from citing your or someone else's opinion, please prove your assertion that “no text outside Scripture carries God's authority and infallibility.”

Your assertion that “[the Reformation] is the crucible from which the Anglican church ... [is] forged from the transforming of the Catholic Church” is factually incorrect: the Anglican Church existed independently of the Roman Catholic Church at least 1000 years before the Reformation.

Your assertion that “[the Reformation] and the 39 articles ... are primary for the C of E and therefore Global Anglicanism” is a matter of opinion, at best: the 39 Articles are primary sources on the history and theology of the Church of England during the Elizabethan era, but whether they should be given the same effect today outside the Church of England is another issue. The Common Cause Partnership's Theological Statement stops short of that:

We receive the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion of 1562, taken in their literal and grammatical sense, as expressing the Anglican response to certain doctrinal issues controverted at that time, and as expressing the fundamental principles of authentic Anglican belief.

What “many Evangelicals” believe “represent[s] a theological high water mark in Anglicanism” is only relevant in a discussion about historic Anglicanism if you mean Reformed/Calvinists–Bapticostal Evangelicalism didn't even exist until relatively recently.

Blessings,

chaps+
hapax
Posted: 2008/11/26 13:52  Updated: 2008/11/26 16:47
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2004/10/19
From: Oxford (for the time being)
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 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
Quote:
At the risk of appearing to be very uninformed and ignorant, I would appreciate some insight regarding the generally accepted differences between Anglo-Catholics and Evangelicals in the context of Anglicanism. I gather that the term "Evangelicans" came into use during the reformation as applying to those reformers who were struggling against the Roman church and that Anglo-Cathocism is related to the Oxford Movement. However, what is the modern interpretation of these terms


@ Volboy: Far from betraying your ignorance, your question shows you to be very thoughtful, seeking to go behind the convenience of labels in order to ask what is really at issue. Chaps has already responded to your queries from (what I presume is!) an Anglo-Catholic perspective. Allow me to chime in from an Evangelical Anglican perspective.

It's a very good question to which there is no simple answer. If you really want to know you are going to have to be prepared to do a *lot* of reading of historical mterial as well as some reading about the current state of Anglcanism. More importantly you will need to talk to real live Anglicans of different persuasions/ emphases if you want to know wnat current day Anglo-Catholics think it means to be Anglo-Catholic or what current day Anglican Evangelicals think it means to be Evangelical.

Quote:
I read articles about Anglicans that talk about "Evangelicals" doing so-and-so and "Anglo-Catholics" doing this-and-that! What is it about these two groups of folks that leads them (and others) to assume that their belief sets are such that they can be labeled as belonging to one particular group or the other?


Well it starts with but certainly doesn't end with historical pedigree. Present day "Anglo-Catholic" and "Evangelicals" (and other groupings as well) see themselves as heirs of prior historical movements. Of course, as you point out modern day A-Cs or Evos may differ from their historical forebears and in such a case there is an argument to be made that they no longer have the right to use these labels. I can't speak for A-Cs (I'm an Evangelical) but within the Evangelical camp you have these kind of debates as to who is the more faithful heir to the label.

In order to understand the historical pedigree I would suggest you need a basic awareness of at least:
(1) the pre-Reformation Church of England; its theology and structure and and its at times uneasy relationship with the See of Rome and wider Christendom
(2) Renaissance and Reformation on both the Continent of Europe and in England (as well as its historical antecedents)
(3) the reign of Mary and the Elizabethan settlement
(4) the Puritan demands for further reformation of the Church of England after the Elizabethan settlement and the various responses thereto (particularly the various church "parties")
(5) The English Civil War and the Church of England in the Interregnum (not forgetting the Westminster Assembly and the Church of England's relationship with the [Presbyterian] Church of Scotland)
(6) The Restoration (which gave us among other things the Book of Common Prayer 1662 which for most Anglicans throughout the world is *the* defininitve prayer book)
(7) English/ British imperialism -- the development of "Anglicanism" outside of England through the politics of empire
(8) The Enlightenment/ rise of Deism and rationalism
(9) The Evangelical Awakening
(10) world mission -- the spread of Anglicanism by volunteer missionaries
(11) The Romantic era
(12) The Oxford Movement
(13) The place of theological liberalism/ and (so-called) higher criticism
(14) Secularisation/ the decline of Christendom
(15) Ecumenism
(16) The dramatic growth of Anglicanism in the "two thirds world" and its decline in the "old Empire".
(17) various current controversies which may be lumped together under the heading of "Anglican realignmnet"

That list is far from exhaustive and perhaps betrays a slight bias towards my evangelical tendencies and I wouldn't object if an Anglo-Catholic wanted to add a few other things to the list. My point is, these events (and no doubt others) have been instrumental in shaping "Evangelical" Anglican and "Anglo-Catholic" identity (and some others as well).

As far as historical antecedents go, all of these are important for both Evangelical and Anglo-Catholic identity, but perhaps in different ways and to different extents.

Modern day parishes tend to identify with one of the main traditions and people who go there are shaped by a particular Anglican tradition in the worship, the preaching, the theology, what you learn in confirmation classes, what books you read etc etc etc. Of course individual "Evanglicals" or "Anglo-Catholics" can and do differ but generally speaking we can make meaningful generalisations about what "Anglo-Catholics" and what "Evangelical" Anglicans believe and do.

Basically the "evangelicals" as we know them today came into existence at point (9) which was in the 18th Century and the "Anglo-Catholics" came into existence at point (12) with was in the 19th Century. However, each group has historical antecedents and would identify more or less strongly with various seminal events before and would claim to be faithful heirs to earlier traditions. For instance, although not really coming into existence until the 19th Century, Anglo-Catholics would claim a continuity with the pre-Reformation Church of England. And similarly modern day Evangelicals would claim a continuity with the Anglican Reformers (and many also with the Anglican Puritans). And sometimes these earlier traditions which have influenced subsequent ones help to explain many differences of opinion and practice. For instance many Evanglical Anglicans are currently considering the question of lay and diaconal administration of the Lord's Supper. This is something about which Evangelical Anglicans differ and if you think about it it's not really central to the kind of concerns central to the "Evangelical" movement which prompted men like John Wesley, George Whitfield and Charles Simeon. However, for many (but certainly not all) Anglican Evangelicals the earlier Anglican Puritan tradition is an important part of their Anglican Evangelical identity and while virtually no-one today would call themselves "Puritan", for many evangelicals the Puritan concern of further reformation of the Church according to the Word of God is an important concern. I would suggest that this is what explains the differences of opinion within Evangelical Anglicanism and Anglicanism more broadly over lay and diaconal administration. Those Evangelicals who most strongly identify with the Puritan tradition of Anglicanism (a recognition that the Reformation was never completed and that there is a need for further reform of the Church in accordance with the Word of God) are those most strongly pressing for lay and diaconal presidency in today's Anglican churches.

So the current groupings have historical antecedents, but times change and the burning issues of the 16th, 17th 18th, 19th or now 20th centuries (to name a few very instrumental in shaping Anglican identity) are not necessarily the burning issues of today. You see this in the fact that Anglo-Catholics and Evangelicals are starting to come together in the current Anglican realignment over disputes with liberalism. Whether they can find enough common ground to stand together and yet retain their separate identities only time will tell.

Chaps's link to the various strands of Anglican churchmanship is a very good starting point, but the reality is of course much more complex than any simple schema like that can depict (and that is not meant in any way disrespectfully to the author of that schema): First, there are various sub-groupings; secondly within each group and even subgroup you may find a degree of difference between the clergy and the laity or between the more theologically literate as opposed to the less theologically literate laity; thirdly I wouldn't ignore the role that history and culture can have on these things (eg an African and an Australian who would be classified as having the same churchmanship on that schema may in fact have different attitudes to things like the 39 Articles); and fourthly you then have to account for individual differences.

For what it's worth I'm a 3a -- Old style conservative evangelical; i.e. Calvinist/Reformed in theology but thoroughly Anglican in form and liturgy: a "high-church Puritan" if you will -- from Australia (originally the Diocese of Sydney) but currently living in England (Diocese of Oxford). I'd be happy to answer any questions about my personal attitudes to the things you want to know as well as asnwering as best I can on behalf of 3a Anglicans more generally (and other forms of churchmanship to the extent you want my opinion on how they think; although I can't exactly speak "for" them I think I have a fairly good understanding of how they -- or some of them -- think).

I'm sure some of the other people who post here would be happy to answer your questions from their perspective. And if you're currently attending an Anglican church then I would encourage to start asking there (both clergy and lay people) about their attitudes.

Quote:
If I may be so bold as to make a simplistic stab at it, would one difference be that "Anglo-Catholics" are more likely to rely on the "church" to interpret Scripture and are more prone to subjugate themselves to "church teachings" and "church authorities"? On the other hand, "Evangelicals" are more prone to subscribe to "sola Scriptura" and to challenge "official" church digma?


As a kind of a rough stab in the dark you're on the right track, but I would want to be a bit more nuanced than both your stab and Chaps's answer.

Yes Evangelical Anglicans (at least of the 3a kind) believe in the five solas of the Reformation, including "sola scriptura" (although what exactly that entails is open to some debate) whereas A-Cs tend to believe in some kind Apostolic "deposit of the faith" which obviously includes Scripture but is not limited thereto. If you like, Evos believe the Apostolic deposit of faith is limited to Scripture, whereas A-Cs don't. For Evos tradition is important, but it's not part of the Apostolic Deposit of the faith -- i.e. authoritative -- but rather an *interpretive aid* to our sole apostolic authority (Scripture). Evos say (and I agree with them) that Hooker's explanation of the relationship between Scripture, Tradition and Reason has been misunderstood and grossly misrepresented. Despite what A-Cs try to say, Hooker was a good Protestant. He did not believe in three sources of authority (Scripture, Tradition and Reason) but one. For Hooker Scripture was the sole authority and reason and tradition are what we use in interpreting Scripture. That is basically the Evangelical Anglican understanding of sola scriptura.

I've said quite a lot already but I would want to add one more thing and say that in talking about "tradition" and "the church", both your question and Chaps's answer presuppose a definition of "the church" which IMHO goes to the very heart of the issue. Before we can talk about wheter A-Cs believe in "church" authority and "church" tradition and whether Evangelical Anglicans reject these things we have to define what we mean by "the church". You will soon see that Evos and A-Cs have different understandings of what "the church" is and where the true "church" is to be found (and it is here we get into arguments about apostolic succession).

Grace and peace,
hapax
hapax
Posted: 2008/11/26 14:39  Updated: 2008/11/27 8:44
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2004/10/19
From: Oxford (for the time being)
Posts: 30
 Re: LIFE AFTER LAMBETH: The Naiveté of Andrew Goddard
I'd like to respond to some of Chaps's comments in reply to Jason. Suffice it to say I'm sure that Jason can answer for himself but nevertheless I can't in good conscience let Chaps's comments go unanswered. My main objection is not that Chaps holds Anglo-Catholic views, but rather the way he appears to come to thise conclusions and also the way he summarily dismisses contrary views.

Quote:
A 'primary' source is defined as a document, recording, or other source of information (paper, picture, etc) that was created at the time being studied by an authoritative source, usually one with direct personal knowledge of the events being described. A 'secondary' source is one which cites, comments on, or builds upon 'primary' sources.


For the purposes of argument I'm willing to accept this.

Quote:
Therefore, the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers (and some other things) are 'primary' sources regarding the Christian Faith along with the Scriptures which they canonized.


This merely begs the question (several actually).

The first is primary source *of what*. The Ante-Nicene Fathers (ANF) are undoubtedly a "primary source" of post-apostolic Ante-Nicene Christian beliefs (the plural is deliberate as a perusal of the ANF reveals a diversity of views). But since what we really want to discover is authoritative Christian doctrine what we have to ask is whether the ANF contain *this*. If so, then yes they are a "primary source" for authoritative Christian belief. If not, then they are a primary source of something, but certainly not the right something.

So the question is not whether to draw the line between primary and secondary sources, but rather *where* to draw the line between primary and secondary sources (while being clear about what it is our sources are witnessing to). You draw the line at the Council of Nicaea and make the argument that Nicaea established Scripture and that along with Scripture the ANF (or at least a "consesus reading" thereof) count as primary sources of authoritative Christian doctrine. I draw it at the apostles themselves, arguing that authoritative Christian teaching is limited to the Word of God spoken by the prophets, our Lord himself and his inspired apostles. The ANF are very early and very important secondary sources to this authoritative prophetic-dominical-apostolic teaching, but secondary sources nonetheless.

There are a number of problems with your position that the ANF contain authoritative Christian teaching. First, I don't accept that Nicaea established the canon of Scripture any more than Article VI of the Church of England establishes the canon of Scripture; rather, they both *declare* what is already and inherently the case. Scripture is not scripture (and therefore authoritative) because Nicaea declared it so but because God spoke it. As the Westminster Confession of Faith puts it (I.IV): "The authority of the holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed and obeyed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or Church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the Author thereof; and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God." If Nicaea (or anyone else for that matter) omited a book (e.g. the Epistle of James) then that book would not thereby cease to be Scripture. It is still the Word of God and as such is authoritative in the church and indeed for all people everywhere whom God commands to repent. Of course the church would be all the poorer for not recognising this inspired book in its canon. But my point is this: The church does not establish what is or is not Scripture.

Secondly, even accepting for the sake of argument that Nicaea did "establish" the canon in the way you suggest, it does not thereby follow that the ANF are to be treated as authoritative Christian teaching. Where did our Lord make such a promise with respect to the ANF as he made with respect to his inspired apostles? Unless you're claiming the ANF as the Word of God, why accept them as authoritative unless you have some specfic promise from God that they too would contain authoritative teaching?

Thirdly, even accepting all of this you don't seriously argue that every single person who wrote between the time of the apostles and the Council of Nicaea is to be treated as an Ante-Nicene Father. You treat some authors from this time as being "in the club" and others as being "out". On what basis (other than testing them against Scripture) can you make this judgment? You need some independent criterion to work out which post-apostolic Ante-Nicene authors are the guys to be trusted and which are clearly not. A multi-volume set of ANF didn't come down to us from heaven ready to parse and find a consensus. This is itself a work of human editing saying who is in and who is out of the ANF "canon".

The far safer approach is to draw the line with the apostles themselves and state that post-apostolic writings such as the ANF are early secondary sources which are to be accorded a great deal of weight in interpreting Scripture, but because the authors were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the Word of God (as the prophets and apostles were) they are not to be treated as authoritative. That means that the ANF could and at times no doubt did err and that subsequent theologians (including but not limited to the Reformers) at times were right when the ANF were wrong. *All* writings which are not the Word of God need to be held up to the Word of God for scrutiny.

Quote:
the authentic Christian Faith is “that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all” (Vincentian Canon)–


Several objections to this.

First, I don't mean to be disrespectful but I would want to ask "sez who?". Why does the opinion of a 5th Century French monk determine the test of authentic Christian faith any more than the opinion of a 16th century German monk or a 21st century American bishop (or body of bishops)?

Secondly, while there's a nice sentiment involved (universality of belief), taken literally this test would exclude everything and everyone from true Christian faith. No single doctrine is held by everyone who professes to be a Christian; no two professing Christians are alike in every respect.

Thirdly, in any event it would exclude a lot of beliefs held by the people who like to cite it (eg Roman Catholics, Anglo-Catholics, Eastern Orthodox). Many of their distinctives cannot be shown to be universally held (whether numerically, temporally or geographically) and their leading theologians and historians admit it. Do your homework about things like the 7 sacraments, transubstantiation, the use of icons in worship, the invocation of saints, the treasury of merit, prayers to the dead, the veneration of the BVM, her (so-called) immaculate conception, her perpetual virginity, her alleged assumption into heaven, (the so-called) apostoilc succession, the primacy of the See of Rome/ papal authority etc etc and you will not be able to prove any of these by the Vincentian canon. Are you willing to stop believing/ doing any of these as a result of your acceptance of the Vincentian canon?

Fourthly, if you want to accuse Luther of heresy then we need to look at the record of the author of the Vincentian canon as well. It's probably impossible at this stage to prove either way whether he held heretical views or not (we can't exactly put the man under cross-examination), but Vincent of Lérins has certainly been accused of semi-Pelagianism (a heresy which was denounced in 529 by the Council of Orange). I don't really put much (if any) weight to this point because even if he was guilty of believing semi-pelagianism, it doesn't necessarily mean he always held this belief or that he was not in the end saved; secondly he may well have erred on this and still have been right on other things (such as the truth of the Vincentian canon). So we have to evaluate the truth of the Vincentian canon independently of his other beliefs. But I do mention these doubts about Vincent's orthodoxy to point out that Vincent himself was human and fallible and that he may have held errant beliefs and not been a true Christian on his own terms. The ante-Nicene and early post-Nicene church was not some "golden age" of doctrinal purity. The people of that age were just as fallible and subject to error as we are.

Quote:
a *consensus* of the Fathers–so it's not a question of whether one of the Reformers had greater insight on one passage of Scripture than one of the Ante-Nicene Fathers ... But what if there isn't any consensus of the Fathers or they are silent on a topic?


Glad to see that you recognise one weakness in your own position, viz. that a disparate group of authors may not even address a topic or even if they do that they won't always reach a consensus. Fine, but what constitutes a "consensus" anyway? Unanimity? A bare majority? Somewhere between the two?

And even if there appears to be something of a consensus on closer inspection there may not be. The problem is that the ANF didn't usually write treatises of systematic theology. Rather they were often writing pastoral letters to address specific concerns and we have to respect the context in which these works were written. So even when two or more ANF appear to be writing on the same topic they may be addressing very different concerns and you can't just artificially lump the two together to construct a "consensus" ignorant of the context in which they wrote and the particular concerns they were addressing.

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That brings us to the second point: “the faith ... was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3)–there were no new Christian teachings after the Apostolic Era.


Agreed. I would say this is true by definition since authoritative Christian teaching is by definition prophetic-dominical-apostolic and God's revelation ceased with the apostolic witness to Christ.

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Therefore, any teaching–regardless of whether it dates from the Reformation or it's modern–lacking a consensus or unknown in the early Christian era must be presumed false: contrary to what some in the Episcopal Church assert, God isn't “doing a new thing.”


Aaagh. Close but no cigar. There's some stuff I clearly agree with here: Yes of course God is not "doing a new thing" as the Episcopal revisionists claim. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and his word changeth not. What many in the Episcopal Church in the USA are claiming as a work of God's Spirit is manifestly not since God cannot contradict himself. His Spirit today cannot be telling the church something contrary to what his Spirit has told us through his prophets, in the person of his Son and by his appointed apostles in the past as recorded for us in Holy Writ.

You are right in that any teaching is not to be believed on account of its historical origin. The true question is of course whether it is *apostolic* teaching. How do we know this? Well I would suggest we "search the Scriptures" as the Bereans were commended for. If what Luther said, although 15 centuries after the time of the apostles, is consonant with the teaching of the apostles then believe it. If not, then reject it. The same goes for any and all of the ANF. If consonant with Scripture accept it. If not, reject it.

The whole point of the Reformation was that the Reformers claimed to be reasserting apostolic teaching in light of the Church's abandonment of it over previous centuries. You can't just write it off as some new-fangled 16th Century teaching without first examining whether it is consonant with apostolic teaching or not any more than you blindly accept the writings of the 2nd-4th Century Ante-Nicene Fathers or the diktats of the Bishop of Rome or statement's of TEC's House of Bishops. You may end up rejecting what the Reformers said. Fine, but you need to be prepared to do this with other theologians as well (including the ANF, Vincent of Lérins, the Bishop of Rome and the Roman magisterium etc).

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please prove your assertion that “no text outside Scripture carries God's authority and infallibility.”


I could ask you to prove the contrary. I take it we both agree that Scripture is the word of God and therefore "carries God's authority and infallibility". I would say that these two qualities presumptively apply to the Word of God and not the word of man. Human beings by nature are finite and fallible not to mention sinful. Unless God himself by his Spirit inspires the author to write the Word of God then it is fair to presume the resultant human writing will NOT carry God's authority and infallibility unless God himself promises otherwise. That is a reasonable deduction from human nature contrasted with the divine nature. While Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would inspire his apostles nowhere does he clearly promise this in relation to post-apostolic authors such as the ANF. So I think it is fair to make the presumption I have.

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Your assertion that “[the Reformation] is the crucible from which the Anglican church ... [is] forged from the transforming of the Catholic Church” is factually incorrect: the Anglican Church existed independently of the Roman Catholic Church at least 1000 years before the Reformation.


Here we get into semantic and definitional difficulties and the danger of conflating "the Church of England" with "Anglicanism". The *Church of England* (Ecclesia Anglicana) certainly existed before the Reformation and if by "the Anglican Church" you simply mean Ecclesia Anglicana, i.e. the Christian Church as it was present in England then of course "the Anglican Church" existed for at least 1000 years before the Reformation and arguably centuries before that. You are right that the Church of England was never founded as an outpost of Rome and existed for a long time free from papal influence and only unwillingly accepted subjection to the Bishop of Rome. There was a Church of England long before the papists came to English shores. As an Evangelical Anglican I thank God for the pre-Reformation Church of England which I see as continuous with the current Church of England and which brought the light of Christ to my forebears and for the pre-Reformation Church's courage in opposing the pretences of the Bishop of Rome for so long. I certainly do not believe that the Church of England was "founded" at the Reformation.

While it was not founded at the Reformation it certainly was *reformed* at that time and fundamentally so. You can't deny that while in an important sense continuous with the pre-Reformation English Church, the Church of England underwent an important change in the 16th Century which affects its character to this day. Since the gospel was first brought to England some time in he first 4 centuries after Christ (and the Church of England was founded), the Reformation of the 16th Century is arguably the most single important period in the Church of England's history -- both in shaping its doctrine and its liturgy.

And it is here that we come to the second meaning of "Anglican Church". It is clearly the faith and order of the *Reformed* Church of England, not the pre-Reformation "Ecclesia Anglicana", which was exported across the world and from which the Anglican Communion grew. When we talk about Anglicanism in this sense then Jason is right to talk about the Reformation as the crucible from which the Anglican church grew. I do not deny the importance of the pre-Reformation Ecclesia Anglicana, but that is not the "Anglicanism" of today. For that we need to look primarily to the Reformation. Referring to the doctrines and practices of the pre-Reformation Ecclesia Anglicana as "Anglican" is certainly not incorrect, but it is a very specialised historical use of the term which is apt to mislead -- especially in contexts outside of England itself. Arguably therefore when we use the word "Anglican" today outside of this specialised historical context the natural sense of the word is a reference to that family of churches influenced by (and in communion with?) the Reformed Church of England.

Rather than what Jason has said I would prefer not to contrast the Reformed Anglican church with the "Catholic" church because the Reformed Anglican church *is* catholic.

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Your assertion that “[the Reformation] and the 39 articles ... are primary for the C of E and therefore Global Anglicanism” is a matter of opinion, at best: the 39 Articles are primary sources on the history and theology of the Church of England during the Elizabethan era, but whether they should be given the same effect today outside the Church of England is another issue.


In relation to the Church of England, if you mean to imply that the 39 Articles are only "sources on the history and theology of the Church of England during the Elizabethan era" you are wrong. As a matter of canon law they are to this day considered authoritative in the Church of England. Canon A5 of the Church of England states "The doctrine of the Church of England is grounded in the Holy Scriptures, and in such teachings of the ancient Fathers and Councils of the Church as are agreeable to the said Scriptures. In particular such doctrine is to be found in the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, the Book of Common Prayer, and the Ordinal."

I take the force of your point (viz. the place of the Church of England formularies in worldwide Anglicanism is not a simple question) but it is not merely "a matter of opinion". There is an empirical element to it. We can look at every member of the Anglican Communion and every other continuing etc Anglican church and examine what they say about the place of the formularies in their province/church. This is not matter of opinion but fact. Many but certainly not all Anglican provinces have a legal entrenchment of the 39 Articles.

After we look at the role of the formularies in each province/church individually there is the question of what role (if any) they play (or indeed ought to play) in the life of the communion as a whole. This is where it gets much more speculative (what role do they play) and indeed opinionated (what role ought they to play).

This is particularly important in the current discussions about possible Anglican realignment where there is some serious thinking to do about what role the historic Anglican formularies (viz. the BCP 1662, the 39 Articles and the Ordinal) ought to play in newly formed bodies such as the Common Cause Partnership or GAFCON for instance, particularly in the event of bodies who have not previously accepted them wishing to join. The Common Cause partnership agreement is an interesting position. It doesn't legally entrench the 39 Articles. But nor does it write them off as Elizabethan squabbles (as many Anglo-Catholics would like). Rather it says that "taken in their literal and grammatical sense, ... [they] express[] the fundamental principles of authentic Anglican belief."

In Christ,
hapax
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