Rowan Williams becomes first ever Anglican leader to accept visions of Virgin Mary as fact
By Simon Caldwell
The Daily Mail
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article
September 25, 2008
The Archbishop of Canturbury Dr Rowan Williams has become the first Anglican leader to visit Lourdes
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, was yesterday branded a 'papal puppet' after he became the first leader of the Church of England to accept visions of the Virgin Mary at Lourdes as historical fact.
He asserted that 18 visions of Our Lady allegedly experienced by Bernadette Soubirous in 1858 were true.
His words shocked millions of Protestants worldwide because they not only signified a break with Protestant teaching on the Virgin Mary but also Dr Williams's personal acceptance of the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, which is explicitly linked to the apparitions.
The archbishop made his remarks during a three-day visit to the shrine in the French Pyrenees - the first ever by a leader of the Church of England.
In a homily he preached at an international Mass there, Dr Williams spoke about the apparitions without any qualifications.
'When Mary came to Bernadette, she came at first as an anonymous figure, a beautiful lady, a mysterious "thing", not yet identified as the Lord's spotless mother," Dr Williams said.
'And Bernadette - uneducated, uninstructed in doctrine - leapt with joy, recognising that here was life, here was healing,' he said.
'Only bit by bit does Bernadette find the words to let the world know; only bit by bit, we might say, does she discover how to listen to the Lady and echo what she has to tell us.'
He also praised the lives of the saints, another devotion seen as distinctively Roman Catholic.
'It may be when we encounter a person in whom we sense that the words we rather half-heartedly use about God are a living and actual reality,' he said.
'That's why the lives of the saints, ancient and modern, matter so much.'
Afterwards he was severely criticised by the Protestant Truth Society, a group of Anglicans and nonconformists committed to upholding the ideals of the Protestant Reformation.
The Rev Jeremy Brooks, director of ministry for the group, said: 'All true Protestants will be appalled that the Archbishop of Canterbury has visited Lourdes, and preached there.
'Lourdes represents everything about Roman Catholicism that the Protestant Reformation ejected, including apparitions, mariolatry and the veneration of saints.
'The archbishop's simple presence there is a wholesale compromise, and his sermon which included a reference to Mary as "the Mother of God" is a complete denial of Protestant orthodoxy.'
He added: 'At a time when our country is crying out for clear Biblical leadership, it is nothing short of tragic that our supposedly Protestant archbishop is behaving as little more than a papal puppet.'
The archbishop's pilgrimage comes just a week after Pope Benedict XVI made his own pilgrimage to the shrine.
He was invited to the shrine by Jacques Perrier, the Catholic Bishop of Tarbes and Lourdes.
Dr Williams was joined there by the German Cardinal Walter Kasper, the president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity, who celebrated the international Mass.
He was also joined by an unprecedented pilgrimage of 10 Church of England bishops, some 60 Anglican priests and about 400 Anglican lay worshippers, a number of whom are considering becoming Catholics in protest at the decision of the General Synod in July to pave the way for the creation of women bishops.
The presence of the Archbishop of Canterbury indicates that mainstream Anglican and Catholic leaders remain committed to closer relations in spite of differences over the ordination of women and sexually-active gay men as priests and bishops.
Lourdes became the most popular shrine in Europe after Bernadette, who was later canonised, said she had seen a vision of a beautiful woman who described herself as the Immaculate Conception.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, formalised by the Catholic Church in the 19th century, holds that the Virgin Mary was conceived in a state of grace which kept her unstained from sin.
The apparition told Bernadette to dig for a spring to which many people would come for healing.
Six million pilgrims, many of them ill, disabled and dying, make pilgrimages to Lourdes each year. Eight million visitors are expected this year.
END
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| Cennydd | Posted: 2008/9/25 13:16 Updated: 2008/9/25 13:17 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
I'm an Anglo Catholic, as most of you know by now, and I do give a certain amount of credence to the probability of miraculous cures at the Shrine of Lourdes. I also applaud Rowan Cantuar's visit there to preach. God does many wondrous things, and who are we to say that miracles at Lourdes aren't possible?
I believe, as so many do, that we need to continue in our efforts to stay in contact with Rome; and thus remain in keeping with the prayer "that we all may be one." Some will say that ++Rowan is a "traitor to Anglicanism," but I must respectfully disagree. Showing respect to Mary, the Mother of God, is the right thing to do, but venerating Her is not the same as worshipping Her....as many claim. She holds a special place in my heart, as I'm sure She does for many of us. Is ++Rowan trying to find a haven for Anglo Catholics? I don't know, since I don't consider myself qualified to say one way or another. Some of us are bound to say that he either is or he isn't. If I were to judge what he's doing, I'd be more inclined to believe that he's doing this for reasons of his own....whatever they may be. I don't feel qualified to judge the man. Cennydd |
| ejsteele | Posted: 2008/9/25 14:02 Updated: 2008/9/25 14:02 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/10/18 From: Posts: 352 |
Quote:
He also praised the lives of the saints, another devotion seen as distinctively Roman Catholic. I think Simon Caldwell just needs to do better research before reporting on such issues. While the recognition of saints is normally associated with the Roman Catholic Church, I wouldn't say it is "distinctively Roman Catholic". Afterall, the eastern churches have many saints...not to mention all those listed in the Book of Common Prayer. ![]() +Ed |
| patulous | Posted: 2008/9/25 14:21 Updated: 2008/9/28 14:53 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/18 From: Posts: 1778 |
I will agree with this:......Williams is there sucking up to the Catholics and it won't get him anywhere with Rome. Venerating means to honor, and the Catholics require more than that.
Williams, here of late, has left the Catholics with sour stomachs, and I doubt they are swayed with more deceit and poor acting from the ABC. |
| Romans828 | Posted: 2008/9/25 14:35 Updated: 2008/9/25 14:35 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/27 From: Posts: 246 |
I wonder if Rowan Williams won't convert to Roman Catholicism after his retirement, like Tony Blair did. He seems to concede implicity that the Roman Catholic religion is superior to Anglicanism. It could play a big psychological relief for him after his universally acknowledged failure as ABC. He's an intellectual who can do the mental gymnastics necessary to convert without denying his supposed Anglican faith. He believes there's a place for homosexuals in the priesthood, and in reality and culture so do the Roman Catholics -- they just deny it in public. It would give him his chance to be dramatic. What's not to like?
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| chaps | Posted: 2008/9/25 14:43 Updated: 2008/9/25 14:43 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/2/11 From: Posts: 446 |
Another ghostly appearance of Rowan Williams. He apparently believes in the RCC doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, which exalts the virtue of sexual purity, and at the same time he believes in “The Body's Grace,” which degrades sexuality through its acceptance of homosexual behavior. Rowan Williams apparently believes in the human tradition of Lourdes and at the same time rejects the Holy Tradition of Scripture. He apparently believes in revelation by apparitions and at the same time rejects revelation by the Holy Spirit of “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). Therefore, applying the unique lack of reason revealed by him, I have concluded that Rowan Willliams isn't really the ABC—someone with such serious deficiencies of faith can't possibly be the Patriarch of a Christian Church, so there must be an apparition hiding beneath all that hair. Maybe we can give him to the French—let the apparition haunt Lourdes instead of Lambeth Palace.
Pax et bonum, chaps+ |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2008/9/25 15:09 Updated: 2008/9/28 11:50 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
I am Welsh, and so is ++Rowan Williams. There is a bit of Welsh folklore and history that I'm sure you're not aware of....especially if you're not Welsh or of Welsh descent, as I am.
The Archbishop is a member of the Council (or seat) of Bards, or in Welsh "yr Gorsedd o Bardd." One is elected to the seat because of his or contributions to the arts in Welsh society; poetry, music, and literature being the areas concerned. It has nothing to do with Druidism. Yes, the Bards do wear cermonial robes somewhat similar to those supposedly worn by Druid priests....but there the similarity ends. For one to be elected to yr Gorsedd o Bardd is an honor similar to that of the Queen's yearly Honours List, and any Welshman (man or woman) or person of Welsh descent who is so honored can take a great deal of personal pride in being elected during a Welsh National Eisteddfod (Cultural festival of Wales). Therefore, contrary to the opinion of many, this has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Just because some people think that this has religious overtones does NOT mean that ++Rowan should be roundly condemned because of it. I do not rise in defense of ++Rowan Williams; I simply explain the facts. Cennydd |
| Diasporite | Posted: 2008/9/25 15:14 Updated: 2008/9/25 15:14 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/8/26 From: Posts: 24 |
Beloved Friends,
I am no champion for the cause of ++Rowan, but attacking him on Catholic orthodoxy makes no sense. As an SSC priest in diaspora, I maintain (and always have), that it is indeed the Catholic Faith, in its fullness, that will save Anglicanism. ++Rowan should be constantly called to account on essentials; the uniqueness of Jesus, the authority of the Scriptures, Virgin birth, Resurrection, ad infinitum, but not on the very hope of a church sick unto death, i.e., Catholic orthodoxy. Jesus, who is God, applied the fruits of redemption from His salvific suffering and death to Mary’s future AND her past. Rejoice in this ye merry Anglican gentlereaders, for it is the same thing He did in your Baptism; applying the same fruits of redemption from 2000 years in the past, into our present! Humbly embrace it and pray for the grace to persevere until we are gathered in again. Pax, Diasporite |
| hcfong | Posted: 2008/9/25 15:36 Updated: 2008/9/25 15:36 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/13 From: Bangor, Wales Posts: 11 |
I don't want to offend Anglo-Catholics among us but one thing I don't really get.
In a time when the Anglican Communion is on the brink of collapse, when in America a faithful bishop is deposed and Anglican leaders around the world are crying out for the ABC to act, all he does is to say that he believes that Mary's appearances to Bernadette in Lourdes are genuine. I think at this time, it would be more appropriate for the ABC to address the situation in the Anglican Communion after the deposition of bishop Duncan than going on a trip to Lourdes. Again, I don't want to offend Anglo-Catholics. I realise that you hold Mary very dear but I think at this time, there are more urgent issues going on in the Anglican Communion. |
| frjude | Posted: 2008/9/25 15:50 Updated: 2008/9/25 15:50 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/1/9 From: Heartland Posts: 280 |
I'm no fan of the ABC. However, this is nuts. I can accept the possibility that Mary appeared there. Why not? Let's not get upset about all of this.
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| esniii | Posted: 2008/9/25 16:08 Updated: 2008/9/25 16:08 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/3/29 From: Posts: 390 |
I think it's entirely possible that Williams may have scheduled Lourdes independently of the Duncan date; but even if he did find out ahead of time he might have avoided staying home and waiting to sit in the hot seat at that point, especially after Lambeth.
He does not seem to be much inclined to confronting enemies of the faith, or even of the Anglican Communion, no matter how unsubtly they act. And whether or not you personally decide to accept the Catholic vision of Mary, it seems clear that Rowan the academic feels free to challenge his own theological opinions and accept what he decides is right, despite his office as Archbishop. Thus, his mutual acceptance of "grace in same-sex relationships" and of the sanctified visions of Mary at Lourdes are actually not that unexpected, though to most of us I am quite sure they seem irreconcilable! |
| Sagamore | Posted: 2008/9/25 22:10 Updated: 2008/9/25 22:10 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/9/10 From: Posts: 137 |
I think I speak for most Anglicans when I say that probably the main overall problem with Roman Catholicism and Mary is the unjustified and undue amount of time and attention they put on her at the expense of time and attention on her Son. There are only twenty-four hours in the day, after all. And whenever they start in with things like "Co-Redemptrix" and "Mediatrix of All Graces"...
The truth is that after a thousand years of ostensibly "infallible" Papal decrees and numerous "ecumenical" councils, Roman Catholic doctrine in general is a convoluted and all too often contradictory mess. I think the higher-ups are painfully aware that things deperately need to be pared down and cleaned up but they are at a loss as to how to go about it without ticking off one group of adherents or another. You can ask ten different Roman Catholics to lay out their church's doctrine for you and get ten different answers with each of them swearing that what they told you is the chiselled in stone dogma of the Church of Rome. Anglicans argue over exactly what their church *should* teach, whereas Roman Catholics argue over exactly what it is their church *does* teach. |
| Diasporite | Posted: 2008/9/26 1:07 Updated: 2008/9/26 1:07 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/8/26 From: Posts: 24 |
"I think I speak for most Anglicans"
My Dear Mr. Sagamore, Please, do not ever, under any circumstances, repeat this phrase. Thank you, Diasporite |
| Howell | Posted: 2008/9/26 2:48 Updated: 2008/9/26 2:48 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/13 From: Colorado Posts: 444 |
If Rowan runs true to form, he will be issuing a statement shortly that his comments at Lourdes were "mis-interpreted" and he will issue all sorts of clarifying statements.
Color me cynical, but Rowan, having recently ticked off the Catholic Church mightely with his statements and actions regarding ordaining female bishops, is using his Lourdes utterances as a major suck-up to try and get back in the good graces of the Vatican. He is so transparently pathetic it almost causes one to "hurl" in his miter. |
| bcwright | Posted: 2008/9/26 4:28 Updated: 2008/9/26 4:28 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/7/4 From: Posts: 528 |
As for the rejection of the title Mother of God by the Protestant Truth Society they do not understand that the title safeguards the divinity of Christ and was declared as doctrine by an Ecumenical Council [I forget which one].
The Council of Ephesus in 431, the Third Ecumenical Council. It repudiated Nestorianism, particularly in the declaration of Mary to be the Theotokos (Mother of God, literally the "God-bearer"). |
| Diasporite | Posted: 2008/9/26 18:03 Updated: 2008/9/26 18:03 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/8/26 From: Posts: 24 |
"As for the rejection of the title Mother of God by the Protestant Truth Society they do not understand that the title safeguards the divinity of Christ and was declared as doctrine by an Ecumenical Council"
Well said, old fellow. ![]() |
| SaintElvis | Posted: 2008/9/28 0:19 Updated: 2008/9/28 11:54 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/5/4 From: Posts: 125 |
hcfong
I do not think you are offending Anglo Catholics, remember Williams is not an Anglo Catholic he is an "Affirming Catholic". You ask why, with all the troubles of the AC does Williams go about endorsing Darwin and Visions of Mary and Marx? Because he is simply 'making news' as in 'change the subject'... get it? I do not understand why anyone would get upset over the "Mother of God" reference. Certainly Tom Oden has no problem with this and he is a Methodist. |
| jpsapieha | Posted: 2008/9/28 1:46 Updated: 2008/9/28 1:46 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/11/17 From: Rio de Janeiro/Sâo Paulo - Brazil Posts: 2 |
Thanks are due to the Protestant Truth Society and the Rev Jeremy Brooks for speaking out on this. But there is far more to this incident than mentionned in their protests.
Many converts from Rome to true Christianity struggle (as I did 24 years ago) with the the “apparitions” question. In my case it appeared inconceivable that the apparitions could not be of Mary since that would mean that a deception on a gigantic scale had been taking place for centuries. Yet in depth study of the Scriptures (a terra incognita for most RCs) following my conversion soon eroded my illusions about “Marian” apparitions. For example, passages such as Rev22:18-19 clearly show that God would be in contradiction if he had allowed Mary to come on the scene to “add to and take away from” His Word (as the apparition tirelessly does in its continuing manifestation around the world) and 2Cor11:14 tells us that Satan is no amateur when it comes to disguises. One must feel sorry for those who fail to discern the presence of the old serpent, an expert transvestite among other facets, in the countless “Marian” apparition phenomena down the ages. But such blindness might well represent appropriate judgment on unrepentant failure to provide leadership in bringing the promoters of aberrant sexual behaviour under righteous judgment and condemnation. |
| Dominic | Posted: 2008/9/29 14:38 Updated: 2008/9/29 17:13 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/10 From: London Posts: 285 |
Dear Sir,
I wholeheartedly concur with your points. As an ex-roman priest myself I know exactly what you are talking about, and share your dismay at the way people swallow this nonsense. people to consider carefully how exactly it is that an eternal creator God can have a mother. |
| ptay12 | Posted: 2008/9/29 17:14 Updated: 2008/9/29 17:14 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/3 From: Posts: 434 |
The terms of service are at the top of the page
Paul Taylor Moderator |
| ptay12 | Posted: 2008/9/29 22:40 Updated: 2008/9/29 22:40 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/3 From: Posts: 434 |
The terms of service are located in the FAQ section at the top of the page
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| Sagamore | Posted: 2008/10/1 4:17 Updated: 2008/10/1 4:17 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/9/10 From: Posts: 137 |
Denying Mary is the Mother of God is to either deny the doctrine of homoousios entirely, or at least deny that it occured at the very moment of Jesus's conception, and I don't see how either can result in any kind of orthodox Christology. The first option can only result in either Arianism or Monarchianism, depending on which way you care to go, and the second is Nestorianism.
Mary conceived in her womb and gave birth to the Godman, it's as simple as that. She is the Mother of God. This is an entirely separate issue from the matter of the various historical Marian apparitions though. I have no strong personal opinion one way or the other regarding the validity of these apparitions, but even if they are all genuine, it still doesn't explain or justify why so many Roman Catholics have become fixated on this sort of thing to the point you'd think they are central to the faith. Pilgrimages, veneration of Mary and the saints, etc, add valuable richness and breadth to the Christian experience. There is no harm in them in and of themlseves, and they would certainly seem to be as old as the Church Herself. They do become unhealthy, however, when constant and undue emphasis on them begins to distract proper attention from the core matter of Christ and His work on the Cross. I don't think many people would disagree with that much. |
| Dominic | Posted: 2008/10/1 17:18 Updated: 2008/10/1 17:18 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/10 From: London Posts: 285 |
Mother of Jesus. Fine.
Mother of God. Impossible. |
| jpsapieha | Posted: 2008/10/4 11:33 Updated: 2008/10/4 11:33 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/11/17 From: Rio de Janeiro/Sâo Paulo - Brazil Posts: 2 |
Fully agree with your verdict on the impossibility of the "mother of God" title. It has confused and misled countless millions of Roman Catholics (of which I used to be one) down the centuries into directing their devotions at the "Mother" rather than the "Father".
Besides, "tokos" (in Theotokos) means "bearer" not "mother". The Greek New Testament word for "mother" is always "meter". In choosing "tokos" the Ephesus Council made a clear distinction which Roman Mariolaters (and their Anglican friends) have ignored thus helping to perpetuate the "mother of God" lie. |
























