Dr Williams and his Bishops: wheels within wheels?
by John Richardson
http://ugleyvicar.blogspot.com/2008/08/dr-williams-and-his-bishops-wheels.html
August 9, 2008
The ability of the Anglican Church to undergo apparently impossible convolutions has been further highlighted by the publication of, on the one hand, letters written between Rowan Williams during his time as Archbishop of Wales and a former Anglican Evangelical and, on the other, a letter supporting Dr Williams signed by nineteen bishops and published in today's edition of The Times.
Dr Williams' letters tell us nothing really new in terms of either his theology or his church polity. He believes certain homosexual relationships are acceptable, provided they entail "the same rules of faithfulness and commitment would have to apply as to heterosexual union", basing this on an understanding that the Bible's prohibitions are addressed to something else.
It is well-known, however, that Dr Williams believes he should subsume his personal views to those of the office of a bishop. This is underlined by a statement released in response to the publication of the letters in which he says that he understands his responsibility "to be to the declared teaching of the church I serve, and thus to discourage any developments that might imply that the position and convictions of the worldwide Communion have changed."
The only new detail emerging from the correspondence for most of us will be about the timing and the process of Dr Williams' change from "the traditional ethical understanding of homosexuality" to his present position (elaborated in The Body's Grace, which I reviewed in Churchman for 2007) of acceptance. Some of us may be concerned that one of the influences was Jeffrey John's Permanent, Stable, Faithful, which I have reviewed here and which is inadequate in many respects. However, whilst the 'how' may be questionable, the facts of Dr Williams' position are well established.
Yet at the same time, this correspondence highlights what concerns both Conservatives and Liberals. Thus Dr Williams writes, "if I'm asked for my views as a theologian rather than a church leader, I have to be honest and admit that they are as I've said". Yet what is a bishop, if not a theologian? And how is a bishop to lead if not by teaching? And how can a bishop teach with integrity, let alone conviction, what he does not believe? And how can a bishop advise in 'pastoral' situations those whom he would want (as a theologian) to encourage, but must (as an official) discourage?
The difficulty is demonstrated by what subsequently happened to Jeffrey John, whom Dr Williams was instrumental in dissuading from taking up the episcopal office which he had been offered. What did Dr Williams really feel was the justification in acting this way? It could hardly have been a disagreement with Dr John's views, which had persuaded Dr Williams himself. Nor could it have been his lifestyle, which surely reflected the commitment Dr Williams endorsed. No wonder Liberals are still smarting!
Then we come to the letter from the nineteen bishops. What exactly are they trying to say in their 'support' for Dr Williams? Why, given their (presumed) disagreement with his personal convictions, is it signed by so many Evangelicals? And why, given its own disavowal of 'entryism', is it signed by Liberals who support exactly that policy, including two patrons of Changing Attitude?
Thus the letter affirms that Dr Williams, "has spoken out frequently against the 'foot-in-the-door' tactic of divisive innovation such as the consecration of the present Bishop of New Hampshire." Yet it is signed by Bishop John Gladwin who said, when that consecration took place, we should wait to see whether it would eventually 'seem good to the Holy Spirit', and who presumably thinks it has.
And if bishops Wright, Dow, Gledhill and Pritchard believe (as they seem to suggest) that they disagree with Dr Williams' theological views (the views, that is, which he holds 'as a theologian') on such a fundamental issue, surely they must believe that his holding these views must be detrimental to his functioning within his office, for the reasons raised above?
They write that "the Archbishop has said repeatedly ... that there is a difference between 'thinking aloud' as a theologian and the task of a bishop (let alone an Archbishop) to uphold the church's teaching." Yet Dr Williams has also shown repeatedly that he is not merely 'thinking out loud'. His correspondence describes his 'conversion', from one set of convictions to another (albeit, one with some fuzzy edges about such things as appropriate ceremonies). Moreover, as has been observed in some of the comments in response to the bishops' letter, Dr Williams did not write the letters in question 'as a theologian', but as the Archbishop of Wales, responding in a pastoral context to correspondence from a church member.
This is not to say I disrespect Dr Williams, and clearly one of the reasons why they have written is that the nineteen bishops feel some disrespect has been shown. I think I understand what he is trying to do, and to some extent why. But I believe his balancing act, weighing off personal belief against the 'beliefs of the Church', expresses a wrong understanding and expression of the episcopal office. A bishop cannot 'bishop' by repeating the 'party line' of what 'the Church' believes whilst, at the same time, holding entirely other convictions in his heart.
Not least, the reason is that although he may be able to persuade himself that his position is tenable, when those conviction become known to others they themselves can see that it is not. If we know what the man thinks, we will hardly be persuaded when he says something else.
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| Poster | Thread |
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| canongrc | Posted: 2008/8/10 12:17 Updated: 2008/8/10 12:17 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/7/21 From: Posts: 10 |
Which is precisely why he no longer weilds any moral authority as ABC. The sad thing is his seeming blindness to this fact.
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| ctowles | Posted: 2008/8/10 13:28 Updated: 2008/8/10 13:28 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/12/4 From: Posts: 477 |
"Dr Williams did not write the letters in question 'as a theologian', but as the Archbishop of Wales, responding in a pastoral context to correspondence from a church member."
No wonder his daughter thinks he is crazy.(information he volunteered to the world) Not to put too fine an edge on it, she has a point. |
| otispage2 | Posted: 2008/8/10 15:39 Updated: 2008/8/10 16:07 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 602 |
Theology is considered to be the expressed Word of God constitutionally derived from and revealed by Scripture as confirmed and elaborated by Tradition.
For a Bishop to be confused on its revelation regarding same-sex sexual relations -- that such relations are revealed and blessed by Scripture, that a bishop could even construe that such a same-sex sexual relationship may be blessed by God, is a “lie from the pit of hell”. This is not to say a same-sex companionship is wrong when two or more individuals walk together in grace and friendship. But the line is drawn where such same-sex relationships are consummated in sexual lust and the sexual act. ABC managed Lambeth with a classic "conflict of interest" on same-sex sexual relationships! He should have recused himself from leading Lambeth because of the conflict.To not do so proves he was and is a fraud, and should be "impeached" to preserve the Communion. The "instrument " of impeachment is a simple letter/declaration to the Queen that he should be removed as ABC! To impeach is to make an accusation against or to charge with improper conduct in office before a proper tribunal. That tribunal is the Queen. It is then up to the Queen to act if she wishes to preserve the Communion in its present form! It would be an appropriate act by GAFCON to offer the letter -- if there is any hope that the Communion may be protected from the the evil influence of TEC and the gang of homosexuals (gay, lesbian and bisexuals)that control it. |
| cuervoria | Posted: 2008/8/10 16:57 Updated: 2008/8/10 16:57 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/15 From: College Station, Texas Posts: 537 |
Quote:
A bishop cannot 'bishop' by repeating the 'party line' of what 'the Church' believes whilst, at the same time, holding entirely other convictions in his heart. That's Gnosticism! de la Cuervoria |
| patulous | Posted: 2008/8/10 18:30 Updated: 2008/8/10 18:30 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/18 From: Posts: 1746 |
Quote: 1) "A bishop cannot 'bishop' by repeating the 'party line' of what 'the Church' believes whilst, at the same time, holding entirely other convictions in his heart."
Quote: 2) "Not least, the reason is that although he may be able to persuade himself that his position is tenable, when those conviction become known to others they themselves can see that it is not. If we know what the man thinks, we will hardly be persuaded when he says something else." Quote #1 tells what the problem was and is now. Quote #2 tells what he should have or even now should do......RESIGN! The ABC has been nursing a lie for many years and has feared that the person he wrote it to would someday reveal it to the world. Thats exactly what has happened. Now Mr. Williams, do you duty and resign, and don't look back. |
| daveball | Posted: 2008/8/11 0:26 Updated: 2008/8/11 0:26 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/12/18 From: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 2281 |
Rowan Williams is a confused and conflicted soul who serves as bishop of a diocese in England. I think it is rather well established that his days as "Primus inter Pares" are over. No one pays any attention to him any longer.
Why do not the GAFCON primates simply declare that the new primates council is their choice (and the choice of the vast amjority of Anglicans) to be the spiritual focus of the church, identify which bishops and dioceses belong to the GAFCON group and offer spiritual counselling to the rest until they choose to sign on or simply drift off. Let England deal with the poofy likes of Rowan Williams. Sure, I know, there are property issues. Make it well know to TEc and their buddies that they will be contested in court at every turn. They'll lose interest, eventually and after a few adverse decisions the courts (except maybe in California or Massachusetts or other loony places) will start tossing the suites as frivelous. |
| MichaelA | Posted: 2008/8/11 1:46 Updated: 2008/8/11 1:48 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
"Then we come to the letter from the nineteen bishops. What exactly are they trying to say in their 'support' for Dr Williams? Why, given their (presumed) disagreement with his personal convictions, is it signed by so many Evangelicals? And why, given its own disavowal of 'entryism', is it signed by Liberals who support exactly that policy, including two patrons of Changing Attitude?"
A very good question. One positive effect of this whole sad business is that English bishops are being forced to declare themselves openly on important issues. Soon it won't be enough for English bishops just to label themselves "Evangelical", "Anglo-Catholic" or whatever; The real issue will be: "What do they actually BELIEVE?" |
| Drummie | Posted: 2008/8/11 10:57 Updated: 2008/8/11 10:57 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/9/27 From: Posts: 505 |
Dr Williams writes, "if I'm asked for my views as a theologian rather than a church leader, I have to be honest and admit that they are as I've said". Yet what is a bishop, if not a theologian? And how is a bishop to lead if not by teaching? And how can a bishop teach with integrity, let alone conviction, what he does not believe? And how can a bishop advise in 'pastoral' situations those whom he would want (as a theologian) to encourage, but must (as an official) discourage?
If Dr. Williams would resign his position and his orders out of conscience, I would have great respect for him as a man of integrity. By doing neither, he becomes a heretic and blasphemor, and I loose all respect in him as a man or leader. THAT is why he shoud be made to leave. |
| gregory | Posted: 2008/8/11 13:44 Updated: 2008/8/11 15:16 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4423 |
"Why, given their (presumed) disagreement with his personal convictions, is it signed by so many Evangelicals?"
Well we know that the Evangelical that stayed with TEc when the split happened in the late 70's did bring in women priests... So why is it a surprise that Evangelicals signed on to this? Evangelicals increasingly tolerant of other paths; CLINK HERE The future will be the same unless Evangelicals realize what they have done. Repentance, sack cloth and ashes are not too extreme for what has been done... The real issue will be: "What do they actually BELIEVE?" Like; The Jerusalem Statement rightly states; 3. We uphold the four Ecumenical Councils and the three historic Creeds as expressing the rule of faith of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church. humbly, gregory |
| DomWalk | Posted: 2008/8/11 16:35 Updated: 2008/8/11 17:09 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/9 From: Left Coast, USA Posts: 619 |
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| MichaelA | Posted: 2008/8/12 5:07 Updated: 2008/8/12 11:29 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
Gregory,
Once again, you try to argue that the evil Evangelicals are to blame for the influx of Liberalism. My personal view is that the insidious onset of liberalism is quite independent of whether one was originally "anglo-catholic" or "evangelical". Nevertheless, in view of your attempt to argue the indefensible, I think some examples from the other side are needed: 1. Our experience here in Australia has been *overwhelmingly* that liberalism has taken hold in the anglo-catholic dioceses. The dioceses that have held out longest against liberal theology have been those with significant numbers of evangelical congregations. Those dioceses that have entirely resisted liberalism and in fact counter-attacked, have been those that are most strongly evangelical - Sydney, Armidale and the Northwest. (On the positive side, one of the small anglo-catholic dioceses - Ballarat - has also maintained a strong orthodox witness, and there are also a few congregations who left with the TAC, but that is about it). In the Australian Anglican Church, virtually everyone understands "anglo-catholic" as being synonymous with "liberal". I appreciate that that may not be your experience in America, but please remember that you are only a very small part of the Anglican communion. 2. The strong foreign provinces that stand firm against liberal doctrines such as the ordination of women are almost always evangelical in their theology: e.g. Southern Cone, Nigeria. 3. You write: "Well we know that the Evangelical that stayed with TEc when the split happened in the late 70's did bring in women priests... So why is it a surprise that Evangelicals signed on to this?" You fail to mention that anglo-catholics who stayed in TEC also brought in women priests. There were shining exceptions among both anglo-catholics and evangelicals, but in general both groups proved unable to stand against the insidious creep of liberalism. Furthermore, you entirely disregard the many orthodox Anglicans who fought their battles against the onset of liberalism in ECUSA after 1976 – they apparently are not worthy of your consideration. You also know that the ordination of women does not arise from nowhere. It is a natural outcome of liberal theology, which was promoted clearly and openly in PECUSA by Robinson and Pike in the 1950s and 1960s, yet without significant protest from the anglo-catholic movement. This contrasts with e.g. those churches who left in 1968 to form the American Episcopalian Church. 4. You obviously object to me applying the question "What do they actually BELIEVE?" to English anglo-catholics as well as evangelicals. It would appear that you wish us all to accept that an English bishop who is "anglo-catholic" must be accepted as orthodox regardless of his actual beliefs, whilst one who labels himself as "evangelical" must be a latent liberal. That sort of foolish naivete and sectarianism is precisely what made it so easy for liberalism to take over the western churches in the first place. 5. "The future will be the same unless Evangelicals realize what they have done." Fortunately, there are many anglo-catholics who do not suffer from your particular form of denial. They recognise that EACH of us has to recognise where we have contributed to what has occurred, regardless of our "label". Nevertheless, you are welcome to remain supreme in your own pride that you have nothing to repent of. 6. You refer us to a news article that contradicts your case: it states that Dr Billy Graham and the president of the Baptist Union make it very clear that one cannot hold liberalistic views and be evangelical. It then goes on to claim that *one* recent survey showed that 57% of those who call themselves "evangelical" hold liberal views - the survey made no enquiry as to what percentage of those who call themselves "anglo-catholic" hold liberal views, nor for that matter, how many who call themselves "Roman Catholic" or "Eastern Orthodox" hold liberal views. There is no reason to think that the percentage in each case would be any different. |
| DomWalk | Posted: 2008/8/14 15:14 Updated: 2008/8/14 15:17 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/9 From: Left Coast, USA Posts: 619 |
Anglo-Catholicism in the West, outside of the USA, is known to be crawling with homosexuals. It wasn't for nothing the Evelyn Waugh, the noted English author and Roman Catholic, said that while he could believe that the church was defined by communion with the Pontiff, or that the classical Protestant position could be right in that the church had gone off course and needed radical reform in the light of the Bible at the Reformation, what he could not believe as a theory was the Anglo Catholic view, that the true church was revealed as a small group of homosexual curates in 19th Century Oxford.
Doctrinally weak dress-up ceremonialism attracts and nurtures poofters, there's just getting around that point. If it's all about the robes and the gestures -- and, yay, no girls allowed! -- then it's just a big stage production, and the drama queens are going to flock. The deceptive games that the Oxfordistes had to play from the beginning with Anglican doctrine bore fruit early in the English church as the Articles were pushed more and more to the side in order to try to justify the Romanization of the Church of England. Core Anglican doctrines on justification, the number and nature of the sacraments, the Lord's supper, the supremacy of scripture, these were all twisted or pushed aside to allow for their Romish counterparts. Damage done. Anglo-Catholicism leads either to Rome or to Liberalism. It is not Anglican. + + + |
| MichaelA | Posted: 2008/8/15 7:30 Updated: 2008/8/15 7:30 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
Respectfully DomWalk, I have to disagree with your last two sentences (at least).
There are many Anglicans who call themselves "anglo-catholic", who are fully faithful and orthodox christians. Many of them were at Gafcon and I am proud to be in the same church as them. In my previous post I pointed out a number of "anglo-catholic failure stories", but that was only in response to what I read as Gregory's sweeping assertion that apostasy was entirely the fault of the Evangelicals! We need to remember that these are only labels. e.g. I tend to describe myself as a "Calvinist", simoply because I find it is the best way of getting across in one word how I differ from all of TEC, the Roman church, and Eastern Orthodoxy. But it is still only a label. Christians from e.g. the diocese of San Joaquin (the real one!), the diocese of Holy Cross and the Diocese of Recife all tend to describe themselves as Anglo-Catholic - but to me what is important is their acceptance of the authority of scripture and the power of the name of Jesus. That is what matters. Best regards Michael |
| gregory | Posted: 2008/8/15 19:46 Updated: 2008/8/19 12:42 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4423 |
Mike, WOW! you sure got a lot out of my small post. You learned that from the years of revisionist fighting, correct?
i do not claim to be "anglo-catholic" in the sense that the term is used by you or Domwalk. There are no CennyDD or Schofield++ or Ackerman++ or Iker++ in Nflorida which i can point to. That is why i continue to present that once we get past the RCC innovations that are protested then we can see the True Standard which is the original way; The Orthodox Church. We are all responsible for the Stand we take... The reference point should be with The Orthodox Church but many use the cannons or this law or that vote to try to claim the high ground. i do agree with this line; "... recognise that EACH of us has to recognise where we have contributed to what has occurred, regardless of our "label"." But you have not been around long enough to see that i used to have the "From" field filled in with "repentance". "From: Repentance" Because i was somewhat like you until i found that we are really closer to the Orthodox way. Maybe you missed the link from 1947 that i've been posting; http://www.westernorthodox.com/chitty.html i Pray for a closer walk with Christ... humbly, gregory Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. |

















