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News : LAMBETH: Bishops back ABC Williams and still see value in being in Communion
Posted by David Virtue on 2008/8/2 9:50:00 (1467 reads)

LAMBETH: Bishops back Archbishop Rowan Williams and still see value in being in Communion

Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
Times Online
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4448123.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1
August 2, 2008

The Archbishop of Canterbury has the overwhelming support of bishops at the Lambeth Conference, according to a survey for The Times.

However, one quarter of Anglican bishops at the meeting in Canterbury, Kent, are unsure that he is providing the leadership needed to save the Church from schism.

Few bishops support the idea of solving the church's differences by changing the Anglican Communion to a looser federation.

Three-quarters of those at the conference are happy with Dr Rowan Williams' leadership.

The survey is published today as Dr Rowan Williams defended himself against the charge of being a relic of colonialism made by Uganda Primate, Archbishop Henry Orombi, in The Times.

Dr Williams said in an interview that most Africans had more important things on their mind than gay sex.

"The overwhelming concern of most Africans is clean water, food, employment, transparent governance."

Dr Williams will tomorrow give more details of the proposed new Pastoral Forum, a body that act as a clearing house for future disputes in the Anglican Communion.

Religious Intelligence surveyed 100 of the 670 bishops at the conference for The Times. More than nine in 10 bishops at the conference feel there is still value in being in the Communion, despite its current difficulties.

Nearly one in four believes there would be value in being in a looser federation of churches instead, but the vast majority wants to remain in the more structured communion.

The survey does not reflect the views of the 230 bishops and archbishops, mainly from Africa, who have boycotted the conference, which ends tomorrow.

But of those present, it shows that three-quarters believe that Dr Williams is providing the leadership that is needed and nine out of 10 believe there is much to be learned from dialogue with different faiths.

Just one-third cannot remember a worse time for the church in their lifetime, athough four in 10 believe the church has been through a worse time in living memory.

One quarter support the recent declaration from the rival conservative Global Anglican Conference in Jerusalem. A similar number also believe there is no hope of a 'via media' solution for Anglicans, two findings which give possible indications of troubled times for Dr Williams in the months ahead.

The survey showed confusion among delegates about whether people are born gay or not. More than four in 10 said they were, a third said they were not and a quarter did not know.

More than half those surveyed were also critical of the Church's efforts in Zimbabwe, with 58 per cent saying the Church had not done enough to help the people there.

The bishops were equally divided over the founding doctrines of Anglicanism, summarised in the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England. Four in 10 said they did provide a test of Anglican orthodoxy, but a similar number said they did not.

In an interview with Ecumenical News International, Dr Williams rejected Archbishop Orombi's claims that his position in the worldwide Anglican Communion is a left-over from British colonialism.

Archbishop Orombi wrote in The Times yesterday that the "spiritual leadership of a global communion should not be reduced to one man appointed by a secular government".

Dr Williams said: "Archbishop Orombi isn't the first person who has used this language of colonial relics about the Canterbury relationship. I think it's a misunderstanding really. It would be fair only if Canterbury governed. Now, I don't govern the communion."

He said that to accuse him of colonialism was a "red herring".

He criticised the obsession with sex and said it was being confused with morality. "In the Bible, morality means justice, compassion, the defence of the needy. It means humility, realism, self-questioning, repentance and generosity. That's quite a lot to be going on with."

He said the consecration of the openly-gay Gene Robinson as Bishop of New Hampshire in 2003 meant little to Africans living in far-flung parts of the continent.

"Day by day, it means very little, even if they've heard about it. The only point in which it does impact on Mr and Mrs Average in Africa is when they have unsympathetic neighbours, Christians or non-Christians, who'd say - ' Oh, you're from the gay church, aren't you?'"

He conceded that Mugabe in Zimbabwe was hostile to gays.

"I think you'd find other cases of gay people being attacked - not only in Africa - but throughout the world. It's not just a local problem. But the overwhelming concern of most Africans is clean water, food, employment, transparent governance."

He said that he and other Anglican leaders were aware of growing frustration among young Africans about unfulfilled Western promises to help them climb out of poverty.

END

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Poster Thread
daveball
Posted: 2008/8/2 13:25  Updated: 2008/8/2 13:25
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/12/18
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2281
 Re: LAMBETH: Bishops back ABC Williams and still see valu...
It's hard to figure out where to even begin with this tortured survey. I guess the most obvious observation is that it cannot have any statistical relevence to the state of the communion since the huge majority of those there represent only the theologically and morally corrupt side of things. It is akin to taking a survey on the national attitude toward homosexuality in San Francisco or asking for a description of Anglican theology in Los Angeles.

Then there are the numbers. Since there do not appear to be any validating questions, each issue is a stand alone and the responses of questionable and often apparently contradictory nature.

Three quarters of those polled say they are happy with Ruin Williams leadership. It would have been instructive to ask for an example of that alleged leadership. One third cannot remember a worse time for the church and about the same say it has endured worse times. Again, some examples would have been useful. About half of those surveyed support the Jerusulem Declaration and or see no hope of a solution. This doesn't seem consistent with 75% being happy with Ruin's leadership.

Ruin and his handlers immediately sought to spin the problem as a single issue with homosexuality and to put fuzz on that by saying it doesn't mean much to most Africans. This is frequently a good indication that the LGBT group sees danger in the results and is hoping to deflect the issues ASAP.

I think a more reasonable inference from this poll is that most of the purple shirts at lambeth haven't the foggiest idea what they are talking about and that the polling methodology was deeply flawed.
Cennydd
Posted: 2008/8/2 13:54  Updated: 2008/8/2 13:54
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6684
 Re: LAMBETH: Bishops back ABC Williams and still see valu...
Deeply flawed, but not deeply puzzling, considering that The Episcopal Church was so overwhelmingly dominant with its presence.

If there are any more Lambeth Conferences, I would recommend a change in the invitations policy: No more than five bishops from each province should be invited, and a strict limit should be placed on financial contributions should be placed on each province in attendance....with all provinces spending the same amount of money.

TEC has had their way for far too long, and it's time to say goodbye, adios, auf wiedersehen to them.

On, GAFCON!

Cennydd
Damascus
Posted: 2008/8/2 14:27  Updated: 2008/8/2 14:33
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/9/26
From: Republic of Karelia
Posts: 640
 Re: LAMBETH: Bishops back ABC Williams and still see valu...
Let's look at these numbers a different way. There are approximately 650 bishops at Lambeth and 230 who are staying away. Of the 650 at Lambeth, 25% (about 160) think that Williams' leadership stinks and that there is likely to be a schism. That basically means that 390 out of 880 bishops (44%) think that Williams is down in his cabin having a Scotch while the ship he captains is heading full steam ahead for the rocks. Factor in the fact that TEC has about 110 to 120 bishops at Lambeth who represent a mere two million people. Likewise for England, Canada, New Zealand, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and Australia. All of these provinces are heavy on bishops and light on people. While the 490 bishops who think Williams is doing a decent job represent a slight majority of Anglican bishops worldwide, they represent a minority of churchgoing Anglicans. Far from being a strong vote of confidence, this seems pretty damning.
Damascus
Posted: 2008/8/2 14:32  Updated: 2008/8/2 14:32
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/9/26
From: Republic of Karelia
Posts: 640
 Re: LAMBETH: Bishops back ABC Williams and still see valu...
About half of those surveyed support the Jerusalem Declaration and or see no hope of a solution. This doesn't seem consistent with 75% being happy with Ruin's leadership.

The survey said that 25% didn't think Rowan was doing a good job and 25% supported the Jerusalem statement. You are neglecting to consider the possibility that these are the same 25%. They support the Jerusalem statement and they think Rowan is totally lame.
Newshound
Posted: 2008/8/2 15:35  Updated: 2008/8/2 17:52
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/5/5
From:
Posts: 233
 Re: LAMBETH: Bishops back ABC Williams and still see valu...
Did any of these dudes in the red robes talk about Evangelism? That being that we are all sinners (Romans 3:23), and that without Jesus as personal Savior and Lord,for forgiveness of my sins, Its a one-way no frills no way out trip to Hell forever and ever?

Just wondering?
smprrp
Posted: 2008/8/2 18:19  Updated: 2008/8/2 18:19
Just popping in
Joined: 2004/1/4
From:
Posts: 2
 Re: LAMBETH: Bishops back ABC Williams and still see valu...
Newshound
Why would they want to cloud the issue with facts, or for that matter, TRUTH!
chorale
Posted: 2008/8/2 20:27  Updated: 2008/8/2 20:27
Just popping in
Joined: 2008/4/8
From: County Durham, UK
Posts: 13
 Re: LAMBETH: Bishops back ABC Williams and still see valu...
Daveball, I read your posts to this blog with interest. As you would expect of a simple pew-sitter, I find segments to agree with, and others to disagree with. But, every time you use and re-use your term "Ruin Williams", I am imediately transported back to primary school playground, where repeating an insult over and over again seemed to be required ad tedium. Please give it a rest,
Regards,
Chris Baker
Durham UK
daveball
Posted: 2008/8/2 23:09  Updated: 2008/8/2 23:09
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/12/18
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2281
 Re: LAMBETH: Bishops back ABC Williams and still see valu...
Chorale,

It's always good to know someone reads what one writes. I am sure that many agree with and disagree with what I post. I have very definite opinions and this site seems suited to putting the cards on the table face up and letting everyone have their say. I have learned a great deal both in researching some information and in the feedback from commentors. I claim no gnostic gifts and am not a theologian.

In the case of my reference to the ABC, I take your point and would agree that, by this time, my point is made. I believe strongly that Dr. Williams has been a disaster in his job and a major contributor to the situation in which we find ourselves. (Hence the "Ruin" moniker). You may agree or disagree. It is a convenient descriptor. I would guess that those of us on the orthodox side of things won't have any particular continuing concern for him in the near future so I hereby declare "Ruin" retired as a descriptor.

Blessings to you. Those of you in the C of E certainly have your own problems to contend with.
Howell
Posted: 2008/8/3 1:06  Updated: 2008/8/3 1:06
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/1/13
From: Colorado
Posts: 441
 Re: LAMBETH: Bishops back ABC Williams and still see valu...
1) OK, how about "Rowan the Least"?

2) This "survey" strikes me as computer-like: garbage in; garbage out.

3) Suggesting that "Rowan the Least" should continue as ABof C, is like the guy who drilled a second hole on the Titanic to let the water run out.
Causidicus
Posted: 2008/8/3 5:17  Updated: 2008/8/3 5:17
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/3
From:
Posts: 1065
 Re: LAMBETH: Bishops back ABC Williams and still see valu...
75% of those surveyed indicated that: “Yes, oh yes, please do invite me back to Rowan’s jamboree next time! It’s been just wonderful lurching down the streets to eliminate poverty and then stuffing our faces at a garden party, sitting around crosslegged and shoeless in the grass contemplating our navels, doing the indaba, affirming sodomy and in general representing maybe 1/10 of the average Sunday attendance in the entire communion while being comprised of 2/3 of the total bishops! 75 % also think the other great part is the deficit financing of the jamboree, insulting the Africans, the Asians and all the conservatives at every opportunity and, avoiding doing anything effective to address the destruction of the fabric of the Communion by the Americans! But what a fun party!”
Gander
Posted: 2008/8/3 11:05  Updated: 2008/8/3 11:05
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/5/31
From: Less than 1 Earth diameter away
Posts: 452
 Re: LAMBETH: Bishops back ABC Williams and still see valu...
Dr Williams said: "I think it's a misunderstanding really. It would be fair only if Canterbury governed. Now, I don't govern the communion."

So, Williams does not govern the communion.... Just what DOES he do? Manipulate the communion?

Head Manipulator Williams; we have a mare accurate title now.

Don
patulous
Posted: 2008/8/4 0:36  Updated: 2008/8/4 0:36
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/5/18
From:
Posts: 1746
 Re: LAMBETH: Bishops back ABC Williams and still see valu...
Quote: "The survey showed confusion among delegates about whether people are born gay or not. More than four in 10 said they were, a third said they were not and a quarter did not know."

It appears in the wording that they did not know how many really knew what.

Four in 10= 4. They just had to say that the larger number believed that homos were born that way. The next thing you will hear is, they will try to rewrite the Bible and change the scripture to read, "except when they were born that way."

I am still wondering how they will explain all those incurable diseases like, aids and staph infections in the anus.

I AGREE, NOTHING WAS ACCOMPLISHED AT LAMBETH, BUT WE ALL KNEW THAT BEFORE IT STARTED.
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