Register now for more content and features!!    Login   Home | News | FAQ | eBooks | Weblinks | Gallery | Contact Us
News Topics
Special Reports
Columnists
VirtueOnline
Search
VOL Sponsors

North American
Anglican


The Orthodox Journal for Anglicans in North America

Historical, Theological, Practical

39Articles.com



Land of a
Thousand Hills
Coffee


Drink Coffee
Do Good



Sustainable Ministry: Coffee, Community, Social Justice

DrinkCoffee
DoGood.com



Orthodox Anglican
Priest's Manual



Hardcover and Electronic copies available

OrthoChap.com


Contact Us for advertising rates.

Exclusives : LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
Posted by David Virtue on 2008/8/2 2:30:00 (6536 reads)

LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)

By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
8/1/2008

Liberal and Revisionist American bishops here are putting it about that it is orthodox TEC parishes who are suing liberal dioceses for their properties and not the other way round. A VOL reader told me that all the bishops are saying this to whoever will listen. They are trying desperately to put the spin out there that they are the victims of orthodox parishes. "It is terrible. They are lying like crazy to keep the Lambeth Conference together. They want to make orthodox parishes under siege for wanting to hold fast to the faith the enemy of the diocese and the Episcopal Church."

The truth is that some dioceses, namely Los Angeles and Virginia, are on the third round of lawsuits against orthodox parishes and their priests trying to wrench properties they neither built nor paid for from faithful Episcopalians. A number of liberal bishops are taking legal action against parishes wanting to flee their grip, hence the intervention by overseas Primates. The dioceses and national church are spending millions of dollars in lawsuits to retain properties.

There is so much irony here. The Lambeth conference is falling apart and they are desperately looking for anyone or anything to blame for what is going on while trying to push pansexuality onto the back burner.

*****

At an impromptu press conference on the lawn outside the Darwin Building, The Archbishop of the Middle East, Mouneer Anis said that he is disgusted by the constant in your face actions of gays and lesbians at the Kent University campus. "Everywhere I turn they are waiting. They come with literature they push into our faces when we step outside our Indaba groups., they dominate the Marketplace, and they never leave us alone. They wait for us when we go in for meals. I do not like this experience." Even as he spoke, a cameraman from Pacific News and Claiming the Blessing shoved a microphone in the face of the Archbishop trying to rattle him with multiple questions. When other reporters interrupted saying he had had his one question and others had questions, he got closer to Mouneer shoving his microphone within a foot of his face. The rest of the reporters shouted him down. He then moved away and tried to engage Dr. Chris Sugden of Anglican Mainstream who didn't bite and said nothing. Mouneer said that homosexual obsession in the West is a new form of slavery. "The outright advocacy of unscriptural practices is inviting the church into a new form of slavery; a slavery to modern secular culture and to immoral desires and lusts. Simply because people feel desire to do certain things, or, to live in certain ways, has never before, of itself, meant that the church should bless them in doing so." When Mouneer was asked why he didn't attend GAFCON, he said he had conflicting meetings on those dates.

*****

A Scottish Bishop was heard to say that it is time to wrap this conference up. "The body is dead; it must be eliminated before the stink rises."

*****

The Episcopal Church has the most bishops here, some 140. Only 105 are diocesan bishops. The rest are here to support the diocesan. Some are so old they are in virtually in their dotage! TEC has one of the lowest attended provinces, less than 800,000 church-going Episcopalians, but they are waging a campaign of war, spin and survival to keep their place at the table. That place is faltering with each passing day and they are desperate for any kind of win. According to Ruth Gledhill's blog there is even a fake bishop masquerading as a real bishop here!

*****

Mrs. Jefferts Schori was apparently asked if she would kick in some money to help defray the $4 million Lambeth deficit. She apparently said she might, if the Archbishop of Canterbury would cooperate. Translation. Let Gene in and the check book will open. No deals so far.

****

There will be no time line for the Covenant, Canon Geoffrey Cameron of the Anglican Consultative Council told a press conference today. The idea is to keep everyone at the table and hopefully wear down any opposition to The Episcopal Church's love of queer behavior. TEC pays 60% of the ACC's office budget. Cameron said it would take not one, but two General Conventions to finally approve a Covenant. Don't worry, there won't even be a Lambeth or an Anglican Communion in its present form in a few years.

The GAFCON folk are not the slightest bit interested in whether TEC agrees to a covenant or not. Nigerian Primate Peter Akinola has already dismissed talk of a covenant and Windsor report revisions as a means to hold the communion together.

Furthermore, if there is a final covenant and they break it, there will be no punishment metered out or "punitive" actions taken against TEC. "Never bite the hand that feeds you" is the moral of this story. The Covenant is a relational document, not a legalistic document said Cameron. If you don't sign on to it, you will still remain an Anglican anyway, but perhaps in a secondary capacity. What Cameron wants is the right MECHANISM (not theology) for a covenant to keep us altogether.

There now, doesn't that make you feel better? No judgment, no wrath, no pain, no discipline, no Jesus who dies on a cross for our sins, because sex outside of heterosexual marriage is no longer a sin, so there. In a final rip, he said the devil is in the details and who makes the final decision is a difficult one. On that point he might be exactly right.

*****

Handing out Bishop Michael Nazir Ali's book, "The Unique and Universal Christ" to all the bishops on campus met with resistance from Lambeth staff who told two distributors that they couldn't do that. Undeterred, they went ahead and did it anyway, and got a copy of the book to all the bishops. Note, the pansexualists are having no problems distributing their literature;, they get a pass. Orthodox folk have to fight to get their minimal demands met.

****

Revisionist Massachusetts Bishop Tom Shaw said in a video that he is more on the theologically conservative side while discussing homosexuality with an African priest. I all but choked on that one. This bishop has drummed out orthodox priests from his diocese, sued orthodox parishes that wanted to leave, has a quarter or more of openly homogenital priests in partnered relationships in his diocese and brought a transgendered priest to Lambeth as well. The lies and spin never end.

***

The Archbishop of Canterbury, together with London Bishop Richard Chartres, have forsworn travelling by aircraft for a year in order to minimize their carbon footprint. The question is how big a carbon footprint has been left by the ABC in inviting1300 people to meet him in Canterbury this month!

****

Last night at the Inclusive Church get together at a fringe event, the advisor to the ABC on climate change said that just as climate change is killing people, gender discrimination is also killing people. No sign of the dead bodies has been spotted, however.

*****

Orombi's blast at the ABC met with resistance here today. He was disrespectful, sniffed one liberal bishop. American Episcopal bishops should talk. Americans have been nothing but disrespectful to Africans since Jack Spong lashed out at our brothers in the Global South at Lambeth 1998 continuing on to Catherine Roskam with a detour through Frank Griswold.

*****

Regret is not repentance. Asking the TEC to repent and express regret got this response. The Americans feel regret at the pain they have caused, but have never repented for the actions they have taken. We are sorry about hurting your feelings not for consecrating Vicki Gene. There now, doesn't that make you feel a lot better about TEC bishops? The truth is they would have voted for it anyway.

*****

One feels genuine sorrow for Archbishop Drexel Gomez, the Primate of the West Indies. He is putting on a brave front defending the Covenant. The man is a solid Anglo-Catholic and truly loves the Lord. The Church of England, the ABC and the ACC desperately want this Covenant to hold the Anglican Communion together, but none of them have any use for Anglo-Catholicism. Last month the Church of England Synod blew off the Anglo-Catholics over the issue of consecrating women's to the episcopacy. One wonders how Drexel feels while he is defending a Covenant that no one really believes will work when there is no place left for his kind in the C of E!

*****

More press conferences are held outside the Missing Link building than inside it. The official press pundits are losing control of the situation. Bishops who want to talk to the media, put the word out and hey, presto, 30-40 media miraculously turn up on the front lawn outside the Missing Link building.

******

While asking bishops for their reactions to Archbishop Henry Orombi's article in Friday's Times of London, Hans Zeiger had an encounter with an Episcopal bishop's wife who he mistook for a bishop. She told him that she was the wife of a bishop, and then made the accusation that "you're not really press. You're part of the conspiracy that's trying to divide The Episcopal Church. I can see through you." When Hans said that he really was press, she said, "I know who you are. You're spending time around the GAFCON people, and Keith Ackerman."

*****

Bishops of the developing world are wife beaters, a senior female bishop of the US branch of the Anglican Communion said today. The Rt. Rev. Catherine Roskam, Suffragan Bishop of New York, told the bishops gathered at the Lambeth Conference in Canterbury that domestic violence is acceptable in "some parts of the world" and indicated that it is likely that some of the bishops of the Global South group beat their wives. "Culturally, many of our bishops come from places where it is culturally accepted to beat your wife. In that regard, it makes the conversation quite difficult." Clearly hurt by the bad publicity, Roskam, one of the truly dim light bulbs in TEC, tried to back track and came out with a disclaimer saying she never meant what she said and was misinterpreted. She knew exactly what she said and what she meant. No interpretation needed.

*****

Bishop Mathes of San Diego has put up a letter on his diocesan website that is now being picked up by the blogs that the Archbishop of the Southern Cone (who has received countless parishes and an entire Episcopal Diocese into his province) has allegedly apologized for the "incursions" into Bishop Mathes diocese. Archbishop Venables is not apologizing for taking in Episcopal refugees into his province. He may not have the authority to control the flow of mail into South America, but he clearly knows which Episcopalians he takes in for refuge during this crisis and to whom he continues to offer pastoral care - even in San Diego.

Venables told VOL, "We had a polite conversation in which I said I was sorry I hadn't told him about what we were doing and why we were doing it," but there was no apology for taking parishes under his ecclesiastical care.

*****

LISTENING according to The Episcopal Church means you haven't listened until you agree with me.

*****

Is this the Last Lambeth? Not to be missed a conversation with Archbishop Gregory Venables. Watch it here: Thanks to AnglicanTV. http://www.anglicantv.org/blog/index.cfm/2008/8/2/Lambeth-2008-A-Conversation-with-Archbishop-Venables

*****

*THE ALTERNATIVE ROCKY HORROR SERVICE BOOK*

*No.94: A Service for the Fudging of the Schism*

*President:* Dearly beloved, we are gathered here in a very real sense to say as little as possible about sincerely held differences of opinion that exist between members of our Anglican community over a matter that we do not wish to talk about.

(Here he may call upon representatives of the two parties to come forward.)

*President:* Do you, Bishop Onanugu, from the Church of the Holy Exorcist in Lagos, agree to be quiet for the next three years in the hope that the whole thing will blow over?

*Bishop Onanugu:* I don't.

*President:* And do you, Bishop Marvyn de Lumberjack from the Church of the Village People in Moosejam, also agree to be quiet for the next three years?

*Bishop de Lumberjack:* I don't.

*President:* And will you further agree to love, honour and respect one another and your differing traditions for as long as you both shall live?

*Both:* No, we won't.

*President:* We will now give each other a sign of peace.

(The Bishops then exchange solemn blows in the sight of the congregation.)

*President:* We will now sing the Hymn of Thanksgiving for our deliverance from schism.

(All sing Hymn no.94)

*HYMN* "Fight the good fight, We both think we're right."

*DISMISSAL*

*The Archbishop of Canterbury* (for it is he)*: * I think that all went rather well.

*Bishops:* Get lost, beardie!

Copyright Nothing in Common Worship, 2005

END

Social Bookmarking
Bookmark to: Favit Bookmark to: Digg Bookmark to: Del.icio.us Bookmark to: Facebook Bookmark to: Reddit Bookmark to: StumbleUpon Bookmark to: Furl Bookmark to: Google Bookmark to: Yahoo Bookmark to: Technorati Information        
Printer Friendly Page Send this Story to a Friend
The comments are owned by the poster. We aren't responsible for their content.
Poster Thread
Fisherman
Posted: 2008/8/2 11:50  Updated: 2008/8/2 11:53
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/8/25
From: Dallas - Province of the Southern Cone, DoFW
Posts: 675
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
Lambeth 2008. A requiem for the Anglican Communion? It is sounding to be.
daveball
Posted: 2008/8/2 12:25  Updated: 2008/8/2 12:25
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/12/18
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2281
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
Yes, the whole pagan fairy fest referred to as the "Lambeth Conference" is as sad as it was predictable. It was quite obviously controlled from the outset by the LGBT crew and designed by their representatives. Those who say it is Ruin Williams's party are very wrong. Ruin is owned by the LGBT lobby whether he knows it or not. His ineptitude and lack of any semblance of leadership allows the fairy folk to do what they want, when they want. The in-your-face PR campaign cited by Bp. Anis is but one manifestation of how the party is playing out. The whole "Indaba" concept is an absolutely childish attempt to stifle real debate.

Even before the picnic is over and the last "Kumbaya" is sung, participants are reflecting on how divisive and corrosive this event has been. Far from bringing anything together, it has served to more sharply illuminate how far apart Anglican Christianity and revisionist TEC/Canterbury apostacy are.

The traditional instruments of unity have been demonstrated to be non-existent. The fairy tale idea of a "covenant" is a total non-starter despite the brave face of Bishop Gomez. We have clearly seen that there is nothing upon which to base any unity.

The African Bishops have been proven right that they speak louder by not being there than if they had chosen to attend. Bishop Orombi has unequivocably stated where 70% of Anglicans are in relationship to the false teachers of Canterbury/TEc Anglicanism. It is more apparent that the orthodox bishops from the US who chose to attend made a bad decision because they have had, predictably, no impact and have not been heard at all outside of a couple impromptu press conferences that could have been done from a beach in the Caribean. I am sure their contributions to the silly indaba groups has not moved one apostate one inch.

The fact that the spin meisters are out in force attempting to do damage control is a solid indication of how badly the revisionists are losing their position. The media will never report it this way but they have to know it's true. The big gamble has failed and the fall out will destroy the traditional communion. The beneficiary of Lambeth is GAFCON. If GAFCON moves quickly to consolidate its position and to enunciate a clear position and plan and then to begin implementation, the Lambeth Anglicans will cease to exist as a relevant organization within a very few years.

OK GAFCON, the ball is in your court. Deal with the issues and get it moving. Just remember that the new Anglicanism is not a totally evangelical province. There are a lot of us Anglo-Catholics and we are watching very carefully.
Cennydd
Posted: 2008/8/2 13:39  Updated: 2008/8/2 13:39
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6684
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
You bet we are watching! And we're not going to play second fiddle to anyone!

Cennydd
unitarian
Posted: 2008/8/2 17:09  Updated: 2008/8/2 17:09
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/12/31
From: Bryn Mawr, PA
Posts: 307
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
what wonderful reporting. But David, you obviously know more about the Diocese of Mr Shaw, SSJE than you have shared with us. As it is you scribble more and faster than Gibbon--but do you suppose your or someone could inform us on how things are in that diocese? I was born there as a Unitarian and converted in the very cathedral where Mr. Shaw now presides. The material is there for a story that by exposing in detail the abuses in one jurisdiction would make things clearer for all--rather like the Moore story in the New Yorker
rwbader
Posted: 2008/8/2 17:26  Updated: 2008/8/2 17:26
Just popping in
Joined: 2008/7/19
From:
Posts: 3
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
While I commend Archbishop Gomez for many of his stands, doesn't he ordain women? That would not make him a solid Anglo-Catholic.
Cennydd
Posted: 2008/8/2 18:28  Updated: 2008/8/2 21:58
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6684
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
I don't know whether or not ++Gomez ordained women....he's retired now....and I personally don't really care. The point is, I don't want to see any more wedges driven between Evangelicals and Anglo Catholics; there has already been too much of that.

I'm an Anglo Catholic, and I can live with the differences between us and the Evangelicals, so it seems to me that there are much more important things for us to be concerned with. I'm anti-WO as much as anyone else is, but I think there are other things to concern us that are far more important.

Let's put an end to the divisions, shall we?

Cennydd
daveball
Posted: 2008/8/2 19:04  Updated: 2008/8/2 19:04
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/12/18
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2281
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
Br. Cennydd,

To some, the ordination of women may appear to be a peripheral issue. To me, it is a rather central issue of the ecclesiology of the church. It is an issue that speaks to the validity of ministry, the apostolic continuity of teaching and faith and our adherence to what was taught by Jesus and handed down by the apostles. If we cannot be faithful in this, in what can we be faithful? Do we not then place ourselves amongst the revisionists who seem content to pick and choose what they believe?

How can we have a communion (in the sense of shared belief and faith) when we don't believe the same things? How can we say, "I can attend and worship at this church of my communion but not at this one? Do we have a communion then? I don't think any Anglo-catholic can, in good concience, worship with and take eucharist from a female priestess so how can we be truly in communion?

I agree wholeheartedly that there are many other issues before us but I can't place WO in as subordinate a position as you suggest.

I am sure that your intent is to say that getting on with seperation and reestablishment of orthodox Anglicanism and not let small issues become divisive but, at least for me and I suspect many others, WO is one of the elephants in the room that cannot be ignored. It must be dealt with.

If WO remains in whatever we end up creating, I can only speak for myself but I will have some very painful decisions to make about where I go. This is simply an issue that I will not live with.

Lord have mercy.
railbirdbc
Posted: 2008/8/2 20:41  Updated: 2008/8/2 20:41
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/6/6
From:
Posts: 723
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
My favorite moment of all at Lambeth was Roskam's little tirade against the Third World bishops (AKA: the non-white wife beaters). Every time Ms Motor-mouth opens up her tonsil chute she puts her foot right down her radical feminist epiglottis. Persons like her, while beating the drum for liberty and equality, are really levelers trying to dislodge and dislocate the proper social order. They are, in fact, anarchists of the worst sort -- enemies of civilization. In fact, their antics would be most entertaining if it weren't for the fact that too many people trust their twisted opinions and follow suit. But, if she ever decides to give up being a TEC bishop, she might find a new vocation as the world's funniest clown.
Cennydd
Posted: 2008/8/2 22:01  Updated: 2008/8/2 22:01
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6684
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
As I've said so often, this is another glaring example of why women's ordination must be STOPPED......NOW!

Cennydd
bklynlamb
Posted: 2008/8/2 23:38  Updated: 2008/8/2 23:38
Just popping in
Joined: 2006/6/22
From: NYC
Posts: 7
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
(1) Bp. Roskam is a fool, but there are a lot of other fools (male) blathering out there too. thats what comes from these TEC Bishops staying in their little cocoons talking only with people who agree with them and not engaging with the Gospel. I think the social justice talk engaged in by these people, juxtaposed with the disdain and prejudice with which they treat the african bishops is perhaps the most offensive thing going on right now.

(2) The overall bitter tone of this discussion is consistently painful to me. For those of us in traditional minded parishes in revisionist-led dioceses, there really is no solution in sight if TEC does not pull itself together. Its not as tho all these churches have the wherewithal to pick up and leave TEC under current circumstances.
lkwells
Posted: 2008/8/3 1:26  Updated: 2008/8/3 1:26
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/2/19
From:
Posts: 607
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
I cannot believe this:

"Let's put an end to the divisions, shall we?

Cennydd"

VGR is writing and using Cennydd's name. He should stop this at once. I demand that the moderators take action against the use of Cennydd's good name in relation to revisionist natterings.
kiwirev
Posted: 2008/8/3 1:55  Updated: 2008/8/3 1:55
Just popping in
Joined: 2006/5/6
From: Alberta
Posts: 2
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
Good job, David. Thank you. May there be some times of refreshing for you in the next while.
DavidJacks
Posted: 2008/8/3 2:23  Updated: 2008/8/3 2:23
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2005/4/23
From: Upper Toadtown, California
Posts: 100
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
As the Anglican Communion crumbles I wish to remind all posters here that there are perfectly good, orthodox American Catholic churches. The so called "continuing churches" left TEC over 30 years ago. These chuches are American and I wonder why posters here choose to virtually ignore their very existence?
esniii
Posted: 2008/8/3 16:01  Updated: 2008/8/3 16:01
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/3/29
From:
Posts: 385
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
Quote:
The overall bitter tone of this discussion is consistently painful to me. For those of us in traditional minded parishes in revisionist-led dioceses, there really is no solution in sight if TEC does not pull itself together. Its not as tho all these churches have the wherewithal to pick up and leave TEC under current circumstances.


bklynlamb, I wish I had an easy answer for you.

Your answer may lie in leaving comfort for other venues, if any exist in your part of NYC, or even trying to bring about a new parish with an orthodox faith if they don't. That journey might be solitary, or you might be accompanied by other parishioners you know and love.

It's not an easy decision to make, and I will certainly pray for you along with all the faithful in tecusa trapped under unfaithful teachers and false priest(esse)s.

As far as the bitter tone goes, turning to hope like Ruth (as opposed to bitterness like Mara) is a difficult choice. May God give you (and us all) strength to do so, in spite of all the worldly reasons we have to despair.
dvirtue
Posted: 2008/8/3 17:53  Updated: 2008/8/3 17:53
Webmaster
Joined: 2004/1/2
From:
Posts: 163
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
There is a huge story in the Diocese of Mass. that needs unraveling. Time permitting I will do it.
Thanks for writing.

David
jurgen
Posted: 2008/8/4 0:28  Updated: 2008/8/6 21:17
Just popping in
Joined: 2008/7/30
From: Sydney
Posts: 8
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
Is this proportion of parishioners per bishop normal? How is it that one in four of the bishops at Lambeth are TEC when only 1 in 100 Anglicans live in America? I would be interested in knowing the ratios of parishioners per bishop in other provinces. Where would I find this information?
Voyager
Posted: 2008/8/4 7:38  Updated: 2008/8/4 7:38
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/7/30
From: 90 ± 10 Astronomical Units (AU).
Posts: 1594
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
http://tinyurl.com/6ebqxh

A US bishop yesterday accused his own church of manipulating the Lambeth summit by providing its 125 representatives with briefing notes explaining how to promote liberal attitudes towards gay clergy.

The US Episcopal church has the largest presence at Lambeth,
patulous
Posted: 2008/8/4 12:50  Updated: 2008/8/4 12:50
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/5/18
From:
Posts: 1746
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
Ikwells: I agree with you on the cennydd statement,"Let's put an end to the divisions, shall we?"

But, I think he meant it differently than how he said it. I am also Anglo-Catholic and have visited many other anglican churches. However, we can not excuse one sin for another just to stop the divisions in the churches. I firmly believe that if the Anglicans in America will hold the line, we will profit much by being steadfast to the Gospel.

That is why I keep saying, that we should not make leaders of the old bishops that came from TEC that have had a history of not following the scriptures to a "T". NO TO WO, NO TO HOMO CLERGY and strict adherence to the scriputures, should be our litmus test.....many other violations are to be tackled after that.

God bless the faithful.
chaps
Posted: 2008/8/4 17:08  Updated: 2008/8/4 17:08
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/2/11
From:
Posts: 438
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
patulous wrote:
“we should not make leaders of the old bishops that came from TEC that have had a history of not following the Scriptures to a 'T'. NO TO WO, NO TO HOMO CLERGY and strict adherence to the Scriptures, should be our litmus test...”

Thank you for emphasizing this issue, patulous. While I sympathize with Cennydd's call to “put an end to the divisions,” we must not tolerate women's ordination because it comes from the same secular-progressive thinking as the toleration of homosexual behavior: the belief that Christianity must adapt its doctrines to society instead of the other way round. Please note well that the problem is not just clergy: we should not even receive into membership those who practice homosexuality or who promote toleration of it, women's ordination, and some other doctrines and behaviors–heretics can't become clergy or promote heresy from inside the Church if they're never admitted as members. TEc would never have been taken over by heretics if it had not received and tolerated them.

I sympathize with Cenndd's call for harmony between Evangelicals and Anglo-Catholics, but CCP is making this increasingly difficult. The major CCP members are receiving women priests ordained in other jurisdictions and are training more women for ordination. The major CCP members are still clinging to the 1979 BCP despite it's serious defects and GAFCON's call for a return to the 1662 BCP. Many prominent parishes in CCP conduct Rite III type worship services that are not even recognizable as being Anglican–they are like barely liturgical non-denominational services. Most of those who attend these services and many other members of these parishes don't know what's in the 39 Articles and have never even heard of them. Most of them don't care about Anglican (or any other) doctrine and theology–they say “All we need is Jesus.” Their clergy see these services as the growth and future of their parishes and justify it as a necessary adaptation to society–the same argument as the secular progressives. Thus, many of the CCP parishes are not really Anglican–they're like TEc without some of its more gross beliefs.

patulous wrote:
“...many other violations are to be tackled after that.”

Yes, there is much work ahead for CCP to become Anglican instead of the reformed TEc or just another Protestant denomination.

DavidJacks wrote:
“As the Anglican Communion crumbles I wish to remind all posters here that there are perfectly good, orthodox American Catholic churches. The so called 'continuing churches' left TEC over 30 years ago. These churches are American and I wonder why posters here choose to virtually ignore their very existence?”

One reason is that they splintered, which severely damaged their ability to be effective. Another reason is that they are an embarrassment to many of those who remained in TEc–many of them belittled the Continuing Churches and now it's hard for them to admit they were wrong. I think there are a lot of Anglo-Catholics still in TEc who haven't left because (a) they've heard TEc clergy repeatedly trash the Continuing Churches through the years and (b) most CCP parishes are intolerant of Anglo-Catholics. If the Continuing Churches could reunify and effectively reach out to the Anglo-Catholics still in TEc, I think many would join.

Blessings,

chaps+
unitarian
Posted: 2008/8/5 21:16  Updated: 2008/8/5 21:16
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/12/31
From: Bryn Mawr, PA
Posts: 307
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
David you are grossly overworked but good you do cannot be overstated. A detailed factual chronicle of the Mr Shaw SSJE's diocese of Massachusetts would be an eye opener--and it should go not only to VOL but to First Things or some other relatively high visibility religious publication. Given the scent, I suspect the Herald and the Globe will pick the story up. It is tragic and heartbreaking but simply one glaring example out of many and not that difficult to document.
lkwells
Posted: 2008/8/6 13:13  Updated: 2008/8/6 13:13
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/2/19
From:
Posts: 607
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
Patulous: Cennydd has a point IF INDEED he is asking us not to become ensnared in unprofitable controversies over matters of indifference. We all know this has happened and continues to happen amongst Traditionalists and Orthodox Anglicans.

But when someone says "he does not care" whether Bishop so-and-so has "ordained" women, then all my alarm bells go off at once.

It was not James Pike, or John Spong, or VGR, or KJS who brought ECUSA into prostrate apostasy. It was people who were selective in the orthodoxy, people who were opposed to gays but indifferent to WO, people opposed to WO but indifferent to divorce-and-remarriage, people opposed to divorce-and-remarriage but tolerant of Biblical criticism, people who placed nice manners above everything else. It was not the heretics who stole our church but the pseudo-orthodox. People "opposed" to WO, but willing to live 30 years in a church which practiced it.
ptay12
Posted: 2008/8/6 21:15  Updated: 2008/8/6 21:15
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/5/3
From:
Posts: 427
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
Amen for Fr Wells

Paul+
MichaelA
Posted: 2008/8/7 0:59  Updated: 2008/8/7 0:59
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/5/29
From:
Posts: 869
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
"The overall bitter tone of this discussion is consistently painful to me. For those of us in traditional minded parishes in revisionist-led dioceses, there really is no solution in sight if TEC does not pull itself together. Its not as tho all these churches have the wherewithal to pick up and leave TEC under current circumstances."

Bklynlamb,

I second esnii's comments - take this issue to the Lord in prayer. He will give you a direction.

There might be a faithful congregation in your area that you are not aware of. You might find other like-minded believers with whom you can have fellowship, and this in turn may grow into something else.

We are all called to make disciples, grow our churches and grow the kingdom. Who knows - The Lord may be calling you to be part of the establishment of a strong and faithful Anglican congregation right where you are. But call on Him, and do not let go until He gives you an answer.
daveball
Posted: 2008/8/7 1:02  Updated: 2008/8/7 1:02
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/12/18
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2281
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
Not to put too fine a point on it for Fr. Wells makes a legitimate point but I would place the actions he cites in the category of "enabling or contextual actions"

These attitudes and actions created the environment for the greater heresies of Spong, Pike, Robinson, Schori et al to take root.

My great concern at the moment is that the same environment exists in the GAFCON and CCP groups today. No one is overtly speaking out against WO, divorce and remarriage, abortion, scriptural innaccuracy, liturgical malpractice and other innovations. We have learned to reject TEC and all that the Schoriites stand for but we have not corporately replaced it with a strong and clearly defined belief system. We seem to know what we're against; we just haven't collectively signed on to what we believe.

Time is short.

Come Lord, let your Spirit dwell among us and lead us in Your way.
MichaelA
Posted: 2008/8/7 1:06  Updated: 2008/8/7 1:09
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/5/29
From:
Posts: 869
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
chaps wrote: "If the Continuing Churches could reunify and effectively reach out to the Anglo-Catholics still in TEc, I think many would join."

Part of the problem with that scenario is that some of the divisions among the "Continuing Churches" are more than just trivial. E.g. the Traditional Anglican Communion seeks admission to the Church of Rome, meaning that it endorses several unscriptural doctrines taught by Rome. Most Anglicans view these Roman doctrines as every bit as heretical as Women's Ordination.

Other Continuing Churches are adamantly opposed to seeking union with Rome. It would seem that those other churches have to sort out their attitude to TAC before they can present a united front to the rest of the Anglican world?

However I do understand that the ACC, APCK and UECNA have formally declared communion with each other, so would that be a possible basis for the unity of which you write?
MichaelA
Posted: 2008/8/7 1:18  Updated: 2008/8/7 1:21
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/5/29
From:
Posts: 869
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
"I am also Anglo-Catholic and have visited many other anglican churches. However, we can not excuse one sin for another just to stop the divisions in the churches. I firmly believe that if the Anglicans in America will hold the line, we will profit much by being steadfast to the Gospel. That is why I keep saying, that we should not make leaders of the old bishops that came from TEC that have had a history of not following the scriptures to a "T". NO TO WO, NO TO HOMO CLERGY and strict adherence to the scriputures, should be our litmus test.....many other violations are to be tackled after that. God bless the faithful."

Amen, Patulous. All this must happen, at the same time as we evangelise and make disciples. A lot to do! Yet we read in the New Testament that the same tasks and challenges faced the apostles, so who are we do demand an easier road?!

At times we move quickly and decisively, and at others slowly and sensitively, but all directed to one end - that the church to which we belong may be as faithful, holy and zealous for our Lord's kingdom (in all ways) as may be.
lkwells
Posted: 2008/8/7 10:57  Updated: 2008/8/7 10:57
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/2/19
From:
Posts: 607
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
Daveball gets my point exactly:
"My great concern at the moment is that the same environment exists in the GAFCON and CCP groups today. No one is overtly speaking out against WO, divorce and remarriage, abortion, scriptural innaccuracy, liturgical malpractice and other innovations."

The so-called "orthodox" Anglicans these days are a very mixed bag. But if VGR had never become bishop of NH, all the Cennyds of this world would still be living happily in TEC, feeling morally superior to the remnant which left 30 years ago. After all, they never lost any sleep over VGR as a priest. But now they wish to spread the revisionist virus they carry amongst the genuinely orthodox.
ptay12
Posted: 2008/8/7 11:20  Updated: 2008/8/7 11:20
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/5/3
From:
Posts: 427
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
There have been many gay priests and bishops in PECUSA → ECUSA → TEC. There have have been chicken hawks. No one said a word because they were discrete.
Every major heresy is in the 1979 bcp and no one said a word.
No one said a word about WO
The current dust up is because someone is open about his homosexual behavior.

Silence when there is a duty to speak causes a red spot at judgment day
MichaelA
Posted: 2008/8/10 23:18  Updated: 2008/8/10 23:18
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/5/29
From:
Posts: 869
 Re: LAMBETH: David's Diary - From My Ear to Yours (4)
PTay writes:

"No one said a word about WO"

That may be true in America, I can't say. But I know that there are several evangelical dioceses in Australia (and one anglo-catholic diocese) that not only spoke out against Women's ordination, but also successfully resisted it.

"Every major heresy is in the 1979 bcp and no one said a word."

I can't agree with you there. There are many major heresies which are not in the 1979 bcp, but which are propagated as dogma by the Roman Catholic church. Those heresies are also propogated by the Traditional Anglican Communion which seeks to become part of the Roman church.
Support VOL

Please support VirtueOnline with a tax deductible gift.


Your support of our ministry keeps the world informed with the truth!


   


VOL Sponsors



Global Anglican Theological Institute

Multi-Lingual Bible & Theological Education



GlobalAnglican.org
sponsored by VOL







St. Michael
the Archangel

Philadelphia, PA

http://www.anglicanphiladelphia.org

Traditional
Anglo-Catholic
Worship
for PA, NJ, DE

Worship at 8 & 10am
215 Belmont Ave
Bala Cynwyd, PA
215-247-1092
Anglican
Philadelphia.org





Contact Us for
advertising rates.