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Exclusives : LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexuality Question
Posted by David Virtue on 2008/7/21 21:40:00 (3922 reads)

LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexuality Question

By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
7/21/2008

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams offered an ambiguous response to a direct question posed to him about sexual behavior saying that sexual sin is defined as "any relationship outside a public covenant of mutual support and love in the presence of God," seeming to endorse committed same sex arrangements. Williams then followed his first statement saying."Sex outside marriage is not as God purposes it."

VirtueOnline posed this question to the ABC, "What counts for you as wrong in sexual behavior," at a press conference today, Williams added that the "Anglican Communion has made its position clear. That is where I stand and the discipline I am committed to." By "public covenant", is Williams supporting gay marriages?

While his commitment to the 1998 Lambeth resolution 1:10 is clear, it appears in his answer that he is giving solace to those homosexuals in committed same-sex unions in the Western Anglican Church. He did not publicly condemn homosexual behavior and he is on record publicly affirming his openness to homosexual partnerships in his booklet, "The Body's Grace."

Questioned on why Gene Robinson, the openly homoerotic Bishop of New Hampshire, was not invited to Lambeth, but his consecrators were, Williams said there had been difficulty with those who consecrated Robinson with some saying they wished they had not done so, some had retired. Many CAPA (African) bishops said in conscience they could not come with the result that the voices of the majority of Anglicans are not at Lambeth, "The House of Bishops asked for forgiveness for offence caused last year."

Williams said he circulated a letter to all Anglican provinces on whether this was a satisfactory response. Mrs. Jefferts Schori and 50% of the provinces said that it probably was all right. "Therefore we did not want to go down the list (and exclude) the consecrators."

Williams acknowledged divisiveness in the church with many "sensitive issues", but he hoped a Covenant and the Windsor group would help achieve unity "not by coercion but consent." This vision is worth working for and sharing, he said.

Questioned on the validity of Indaba as a method to find unity, Williams said that it did not look like an effective way of addressing tough issues, but it did allow every single voice to be heard. "We did not want to rely too much on particular cultures."

Asked what his message was to the more than 200 absentee orthodox bishops, Williams replied, "We are sorry you are not here. The great pity is not to have those voices in the discussion. They would have been healing and helpful." Will it devalue the legitimacy of Lambeth's conclusions? "If they want their voice incorporated this is way to do it. Have they a coherent alternative to what the Communion gathered here will say or do? These provinces have not said they will pull out. It has to be responded to and engaged with in the years ahead."

Questioned about the Covenant that pilgrims to the GAFCON Jerusalem had rejected, Williams replied, "We argue and continue to make the case. We are not at the end of the process yet. We want to achieve government by council."

Acknowledging the pain caused to Anglo-Catholics by the recent vote on Women's Ordination, Williams said there is a huge bit of unfinished business for the Church of England after Synod, as many people felt grieved by the step taken. "It has made us enter this conference as a bleeding hunted animal."

Williams said the appearance of the Ecumenical participants would deepen the journey into the divine. Asked about Rome's response to the covenant and Cardinal Bertone's critical response to women's ordination., Williams said that some in the Church of England will recognize women, "it is not a deal breaker."

The Rev. Mario Bergner in a fringe event addressing "Pastoral Care After the Sexual Revolution" said the sexual revolution was a way of casting off restraint. "Two institutions have been cast off - families and the church. We have to understand the fallout. Because of family there will be family fallout and in the church with a resulting spiritual fallout."

Bergner said with the inability of relationships to be stable, we need live role models of family life. "This has spilt over into the church. People also said we want to do what is right in our own eyes. If the church did this in reaction then it has assumed this sexual revolution is too messy for God."

The church has a crisis of confidence in the cross. "If there is no understanding or any remedy for any of those roots through the cross, how dare we offer anything else? For example, we are not ashamed to call in a plumber or take our car to a mechanic. They do not put shame on me. We feel ashamed for admitting to the wear and tear in life and needing help. Owning issues of sexuality becomes incredibly difficult in many areas of the church.

"If you do not want the addiction you have got, it is often difficult to get help from the church," said Bergner.

"Does the cross have any power? Is there any real salvation for real domestic issues? Is the cross a mere symbol or an impotent theological concept? If the cross has no power we are of all men to be pitied. We will have the appearance of godliness but are denying its power."

END

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Poster Thread
Sodslaw
Posted: 2008/7/22 0:57  Updated: 2008/7/22 0:58
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/8/3
From: Orthodox Bunker
Posts: 330
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
There you have the news straight from the horses mouth. Rowan is a waste of clerical space and the only hope comes from God alone. Can we even look to GAFCON?
ZachD
Posted: 2008/7/22 1:00  Updated: 2008/7/22 1:00
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/11/10
From:
Posts: 1782
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
Quote:
"It has made us enter this conference as a bleeding hunted animal."


His analogy sickens. By association, it does not speak well of himself or the communion destroyers in our midst.
Cennydd
Posted: 2008/7/22 1:01  Updated: 2008/7/22 1:01
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6684
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
Sodslaw, in the absence of a positive reply of any worth from Rowan Cantuar or from Lambeth at this point, I would say the answer to your question is a definite "Yes, we can!"

Cennydd
MTherese
Posted: 2008/7/22 1:01  Updated: 2008/7/22 1:05
Just popping in
Joined: 2008/7/12
From:
Posts: 20
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
Incredible. Just . . . incredible. It's as though Rowan Williams is talking from a long, long way off, perhaps the surface of Mars. No connection at all with past events.

Then, ""Does the cross have any power? Is there any real salvation for real domestic issues? Is the cross a mere symbol or an impotent theological concept?"

What a silly question! Is there "real salvation for real domestic issues." Sheesh . . .

The Cross IS the source of salvation. But only if one follows Its Way.
Howell
Posted: 2008/7/22 2:06  Updated: 2008/7/22 2:06
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/1/13
From: Colorado
Posts: 441
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
Is Ruin Willimas the greatest double-talker of all times or what? When he says that the presence of orthodox Bishops in Lambeth would have been "healing and helpful" you really have to wonder whether this guy is certifiable to one of England's mental institutions. He absolutely doesn't have a clue and the sooner he leaves the sooner the Anglican Church loses yet another apostate.
MichaelA
Posted: 2008/7/22 6:05  Updated: 2008/7/22 6:13
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/5/29
From:
Posts: 869
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
"Questioned about the Covenant that pilgrims to the GAFCON Jerusalem had rejected, Williams replied, 'We argue and continue to make the case. We are not at the end of the process yet. We want to achieve government by council.'"

No, +++Williams and his supporters only want to achieve government by council IF it is on their terms. Williams' proposed Covenant provided that only councils called by the ABC would be legitimate - i.e. it tried to remove the Primates' power to call a council against the wishes of the ABC. Not surprisingly, the Global South Primates rejected it.

At Lambeth 1988, the GS bishops were ignored and patronised. This incensed them, not because it was offensive (although it was), but because they had called for the Anglican Communion to return to its biblical foundations, and they felt the western churches were rejecting God's word. Therefore, the GS Primates began to call conferences outside of Lambeth.

At Lambeth 1998, the GS bishops forced the conference to listen to them, but since then ABC made it clear that they would get no opportunity to do the same at Lambeth 2008.

ABC has declared war on the Primates (and therefore on those they represent) by attempting to deny them any voice. Therefore, they do not trust him anymore, and they will not agree to his Covenant nor to attend his Lambeth Conference. The next steps seem obvious - extension of alternative episcopal oversight to English and Welsh congregations that request it, and, eventually, the establishment of orthodox dioceses and provinces in both North America and the United Kingdom. ABC has no-one to blame but himself.
quissum
Posted: 2008/7/22 10:14  Updated: 2008/7/22 10:16
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/2/18
From:
Posts: 337
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
Shall we offer Dr. Williams the courage of his convictions, or he is a sniveling, duplicitous fraud? The "bleeding hunted animal" part confirms my sense that Williams sees himself as a martyr for the cause (in which case he is in competition with Gene Robinson for the position Spong once claimed for himself: 'apostle to the GLBTs').

Even the snippet quotes in David's article provide a consistent portrait of a double-minded, double-tongued man (is there a Zulu word for a person like this?) The damage to the Christian Faith he wreaks with every speech and interview is astounding. Perhaps, however, we should be grateful that, by his consistent double-speak, Williams is helping to clarify the moral and spiritual bankruptcy of the revisionist position. Even non-Christians must wonder whether they heard correctly and where this supposed Christian leader is coming from.

The categories of his thought and rhetoric are vaguely spiritual and somewhat mystic but not biblical and not in traditional Christian theological terms. There is no real conviction in what he says--except the prideful 'conviction not hold convictions.' He is too fond of 'nuance' to avoid any clarity. His 'journey into the divine' reminds me of the Altar to the Unknown God St. Paul uses to address the educated pagans of Athens in Acts 17. Similarly, Rowan Williams has quite mistakenly assumed a 'broad path' that Christianity cannot take and still remain faithful to her Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ.
quissum
Posted: 2008/7/22 10:39  Updated: 2008/7/22 10:40
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/2/18
From:
Posts: 337
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
Besides revisionist double-speak, ++Rowan Cantaur's remarks in David's article strongly suggest the dangerous gambler he is with the Anglican Communion of which he is titular head.

He gambled that he could hold Lambeth 2008 and still pretend a 'family' exists without open schism; he gambled that he could invite the consecrators of Gene Robinson and still have representative attendance (we can 'weep for' and explain away the disaffected Africans and such like); he gambled that he could not invite Gene Robinson and know that the long shadow of the homoerotic narcissist would still be present; he gambled that a gay 'marriage' in London, and the final slap in the face against those who oppose women's ordination right before Lambeth ("not a deal breaker") would not 'rain out' his Festival. No doubt several other examples could be given.

For what it is worth, I cannot but recall another, quite different 'gambler'--Blaise Pascal--whose famous Wager on God's existence still merits attention. What he wrote after his conversion in 1654 on a piece of parchment, sewn into his coat, worn for the rest of his life could not bespeak a Christian mindset more removed from Rowan Williams' attitude. I offer Pascal's testament in closing:

God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob, not of the philosophers and scholars...Joy, joy, joy, tears of joy...'This is life eternal that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.' Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ...May I not fall from him forever...I will not forget your word. Amen.
daveball
Posted: 2008/7/22 11:12  Updated: 2008/7/22 11:12
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/12/18
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2281
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
For any of the dreamers that still might hold any illusion that Ruin Williams is anything but an adle brained fizzed out leftist lunatic and that Lambeth is anything but a media circus for the LGBT, I think this series of responses pretty well clinches it.

Lambeth is a poorly stage managed joke.

Ruin Williams is a fraud.

Katiue Schori thinks she owns the communion.

There is no hope whatsoever for the Canterbury based part of te Anglican communion.

Unless the Southern Cone bishops unambiguously condem, reject and "excommunicate" the false teachers, even GAFCON will fall apart from lack of moral authority.
voxpop
Posted: 2008/7/22 11:28  Updated: 2008/7/22 11:28
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/8/18
From: Gaul
Posts: 212
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
A "bleeding hunted animal"? The rhetoric sounds ever more narcissistic, ever more about RW, as if the decline and impending fall of Anglicanism were something taking place in a computer game.

He needs to remember that he is not and never will be pope, and had he allowed the primates to sort out the mess, instead of playing Pius IX, there could have been a resolution long ago.
dturk
Posted: 2008/7/22 12:13  Updated: 2008/7/22 12:13
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/5/26
From:
Posts: 404
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
Rowan Williams is a babbling stooge who has never offered an unambiguous resopnse to anything.
Cennydd
Posted: 2008/7/22 12:48  Updated: 2008/7/22 12:48
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6684
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
We need no reminder of whose stooge he is; Schori's immediate predecessors have seen to that! The rot set in long before they held office, however, and we have the "progressive" heretics to thank for that.

They are those who taught in the seminaries, and whose students are now the senior priests and bishops who have spread the false social "gospel" of inclusivism involving homosexuality in Christian ministry, and of the ordination of priestesses, and who have introduced other unbiblical innovations, such as Schori's blasphemous statement that "there is more than one way to God than through Christ."

Their time to stand before the Judgment Throne of God is coming, as is ours. Let us pray that we ourselves are not found wanting in His eyes!

Cennydd
esniii
Posted: 2008/7/22 12:52  Updated: 2008/7/22 12:52
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/3/29
From:
Posts: 385
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
Quote:
Williams said..."It has made us enter this conference as a bleeding hunted animal."


This is an inaccurate visual image; I think of it more like a pack of wolves, where some wolves have eaten poisoned meat, despite knowing by their God-given noses and senses that it was poisonous.

And now the sick ones want the healthy pack members to share in the feast.

Make anyone else think of a certain conversation with a serpent?
patulous
Posted: 2008/7/22 13:10  Updated: 2008/7/22 13:10
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/5/18
From:
Posts: 1746
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
Rowan Williams is a sick, sick, sick person. I continue to have the thoughts that the higher ups in England are a bunch of ninnies and can not govern even an idiot like the ABC.....where is the queen and the Mr. Brown???? Where is the parliament????

No matter, the muslims will take you over soon, and believe you me, they will destroy the anglican church and all the perverted people in the country......not my answer to solving the problem.....its what muslims do to rid themselves of perverts.
huscarl
Posted: 2008/7/22 13:12  Updated: 2008/7/22 13:12
Just popping in
Joined: 2008/7/6
From:
Posts: 10
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
Rowan Williams is a pathetic, spineless politician who has no business being in the ordained ministry much less the AOC. It is beyond dispute that he is by Biblical standards a false teacher and heretic. Her Majesty, the Queen, should go on national television and demand his immediate resignation from all ministry. All hail the power of Jesus' name, let angels prostrate fall!

Greg Follis
JRoss
Posted: 2008/7/22 13:51  Updated: 2008/7/22 13:51
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/3/15
From: New Jersey
Posts: 895
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
"It has made us enter this conference as a bleeding hunted animal."

First if an animal is bleeding it already has been hunted.Any hunter worth his salt would humanely finish it off and end it's suffering. Williams seems bent on prolonging the suffering. TEC tentacles reach far and deep. How hard is it for one to correct those who reject God's Word unless one reject's it himself.
JRoss
Posted: 2008/7/22 13:56  Updated: 2008/7/22 13:56
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/3/15
From: New Jersey
Posts: 895
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
patulous writes:""Rowan Williams is a sick, sick, sick person. I continue to have the thoughts that the higher ups in England are a bunch of ninnies and can not govern even an idiot like the ABC.....where is the queen and the Mr. Brown???? Where is the parliament????

No matter, the muslims will take you over soon, and believe you me, they will destroy the anglican church and all the perverted people in the country......not my answer to solving the problem.....its what muslims do to rid themselves of perverts."""

Maybe they will apply sharia law which Williams thinks should be part of English Law.
robroy
Posted: 2008/7/22 15:21  Updated: 2008/7/22 15:21
Quite a regular
Joined: 2007/3/13
From:
Posts: 65
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
Why was Gene not invited but his consecrators were? Rowan dishonestly states 1) many were retired and 2) many had expressed regret at the furor it had created.

To 1). Well, retired bishops aren't invited anyway.

To 2). Who are all these bishop's expressing regret? Are they expressing regret for their actions or the response to the actions? How about inviting only those who had expressed remorse?
huscarl
Posted: 2008/7/24 3:35  Updated: 2008/7/24 3:35
Just popping in
Joined: 2008/7/6
From:
Posts: 10
 Re: LAMBETH: Williams Offers Ambiguous Response to Sexual...
After thinking about my initial response, I believe that all God's faithful people should earnestly pray that Rowan Williams should repent of his sin and turn to the Lord Jesus in faith, love and obedience. He must be born again because he certainly cannot see the kingdom of heaven.

Greg Follis
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