JERUSALEM: Gay-Baiting Secular British Media Misses GAFCON Message
News Analysis
By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
6/30/2008
In all my years as a journalist, first working on large city dailies, then Christian magazines, a brief stint as an Episcopal Diocesan Managing Editor and now as an Internet Online news writer, whose website annually draws more than 4 million readers from 172 countries, I have never encountered such appalling spin, outrageous lies, pure mendacity and gay-baiting towards a group of godly men and women of orthodox faith as I encountered recently in Jerusalem by the secular press.
It all began with "The Telegraph" newspaper calling the Amman/GAFCON meeting a "shambles". This was followed by an eight-member editorial piece in the "Telegraph" telling Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, that he should not tolerate this gathering even though they represent the vast majority of Anglicans worldwide - a perfect example of British xenophobia, statism, and paternalism of the worst kind.
It was as though somehow it had slipped the "Telegraph" editors' minds that the British Empire has been dead for some time and that a Commonwealth exists largely for dog and pony royalty shows where nominal loyalty to the crown still exists as a sort of Royal Soap Opera. The Queen is still presiding over a fragmenting and near defunct Church of England that might, according to a report in the "Telegraph" (ironically), cease to exist in 30 years.
It is also clear to this writer that the Queen herself, the supreme Governor of the Church of England, has singularly failed in her task to call the Archbishop of Canterbury to account for his stewardship on the appalling state of the Anglican Communion over which he presides. His brand of Affirming Catholicism appeals neither to the vast majority of Anglicans, who are solidly Evangelical nor to a small minority of Anglo-Catholics. This makes his much vaunted brilliance a handicap in dealing with ordinary Anglicans who have a simple faith that, funnily enough, they can explain to others. Through them, millions are finding Christ as Savior and Lord. That he has embraced pan-sexuality through the stilted logic and lens of modernity has only compounded the mess the Anglican Communion finds itself in. The British press either eulogizes him as a great mind, though incomprehensible to the masses, or a woolly thinker. Take your pick. Among the worst and most inaccurate headline stories came from the BBC. "Anglican rebels clash with gay march." The story by Robert Pigott was so wildly untrue as to defy all human imagination. There was no clash between GAFCON pilgrims and the Gay Pride Parade people.
They never met. The parade never came anywhere near the Renaissance Hotel. Most of the conferees never read the Jerusalem Post or watched BBC news. It was held downtown under tight security that no one could penetrate. One of the speakers was Ian Baxter, a member of the British LGBT organization who worked in the GAFCON pressroom. He never once, in his speech at the Gay Parade, mentioned the GAFCON conference. He also described himself (an openly homosexual activist) as an Evangelical!
The linkage by the BBC writer was and is tangential, at best, and false, at worst. The few thousand marchers and 303 orthodox bishops never met or "disputed homosexuality" at GAFCON. It was not on the agenda. The only talk about it came in a small group session on the "Family and Marriage" led by Dr. Edith Humphrey.
"But to the evident consternation of the organizers of the Global Anglican Future Conference (Gafcon), they had travelled all this way to the Christian Holy City only to find the streets taken over by Jerusalem Gay Pride" said Pigott. Most of the GAFCON crowd never knew there was a gay parade and they wouldn't have cared anyway. They were too busy saying what they did believe and discussing how to transmit it to others. They were not the slightest bit interested in sodomy on the streets of Jerusalem, except perhaps to pray for their salvation.
Riazat Butt of "The Guardian" was the single worst reporter (following in the tradition of her predecessor Stephen Bates) at GAFCON. She has become a shill for British sodomites. She used every press conference to gay bait African primates into either condemning homosexuality (which of course makes them homophobes) or, if they sidestepped her questions, she dissed them for failing to live up to their responsibility for not admitting this small group of aggrieved homogenital activists and their behavior into the church.
Here is one of her classic lines: "GAFCON leaders exhibit an unheavenly silence on homophobia. Clerics at the GAFCON have been slow to condemn violence against gay people. It's incredible, and unchristian," she said. This is a pack of lies. If you set up the Primates with questions that do not even pertain to what is being talked about, you miss the whole point of what GAFCON is about. "The Guardian" did it repeatedly and often.
Or take another screaming headline (again) in "The Telegraph", this time written by a John Bingham,: "Anglican Church 'in chaos' say rebel leaders". So who exactly are the rebels? And who caused the chaos? It certainly was not the GAFCON crowd. They only wanted to uphold what Anglicans have always upheld. Women bishops are a C of E problem and not one that was even raised at GAFCON.
Now The Anglican Church might be "in tatters", but whose fault is that? They say the split is over homosexuality. That again is a half- truth. Certainly Robinson's' election was bad, and a very defining moment, but the deeper issues are over the nature of the gospel and Biblical authority. Sodomy is a symptom of the disease. It is not the disease itself!
Finally, this from someone called Theo Hobson, writing for "The Guardian", "The Evangelicals are moving in for the kill. FOCA (Fellowship of Continuing Anglicans) doesn't want to form a breakaway church; it wants to take over the Anglican Communion, and depose Rowan Williams," he writes.
Nonsense. The brilliance of this conference is that the leaders wrote a Declaration and dumped it in Rowan' Williams' lap, asking him where he stood on the issues and what he was going to do about it? They did not talk schism. They only asked that he maintain the same faith they have (and was brought to them by CMS missionaries from England). They want Williams to say what he will do with the American Episcopal Church, which has gone wildly astray. Well, now we know. He told the GAFCON leaders, in no uncertain terms, that they were misguided and he is their leader for better or worse, whether they like it or not!
"It was a serious snub to Dr Rowan Williams, an assertion of power from the Evangelicals," wrote Bingham. Not true. They wrote up a document that almost any Christian over the last 2,000 years could subscribe to. Now they want to know where Williams' stands! They asked him point blank. So what's wrong with that?
Hobson again,: "Their desire is to take over the Anglican Communion, and you don't achieve that by walking away." Truth. They are not trying to take over anything. They want Williams to affirm what has been affirmed for 2000 years and to say so. He hasn't and won't. He puts collegiality ahead of gospel truth. That won't fly with these folk any more. The schism has already been caused by the liberals and pan-sexualists, not the GAFCON crowd. If there is a break, and there might well be one down the road, it is precisely because of the intransigence of the liberals and Affirming Catholics like Williams who want to change what revealed truth is. The African, Asians and Latins aren't buying it.
Hobson says that Williams has been appeasing the Evangelicals, especially by not inviting Gene Robinson to Lambeth. That was nothing but tokenism to Evangelicals. If Williams was serious about the issue, he would have not have invited all the consecrating bishops, either. But he did, so Evangelicals think Williams is tossing them bones without meat. They are right.
To accuse evangelicals of being "power hungry" is to miss the point of this conference entirely (Hobson was not there). They do not want power at all. What they want is for Williams to say what he believes and uphold what has always been taught about Scripture and sexuality, a prospect they now believe he won't or can't do. They are probably right.
Evangelicals have been cutting Williams and his predecessor slack for the last six or more primatial gatherings. Every time a new document or paper comes out saying that he will uphold this or that, they are disappointed and let down because the Episcopal Church goes ahead and does whatever it likes - including the most egregious lie of all. Frank Griswold said he would never ordain a homosexual when he was in London. Three weeks later he did exactly that. Evangelicals have had enough and who can blame them? The post-colonial mentality of Williams and the Church of England hierarchs, like Bishop N. T. Wright, are appalling examples of xenophobia. The vast majority of the Anglican Communion who are Black, under 30 and female, will no longer take it. They are done. Their leaders have tolerated the patronizing tones of Williams long enough. They are also fed up with the liberal lead American House of Bishops and its presiding oceanographer Katharine Jefferts Schori.
If a split is ever formalized, it will be entirely the fault of Western Liberals and pan-sexualists, but then you can be sure the "Telegraph," "the Guardian", the BBC and "The Times" will find ways to make it look like the Africans are a bunch of theological troglodytes who have just stepped out of the bush and are one step away from wearing loin cloths. Ironically, the documents they will bear in their hands will look strangely familiar, it will be the Bible in one hand and a Ph.D. earned at Oxford or Cambridge in the other.
END
| Poster | Thread |
|---|---|
| Sodslaw | Posted: 2008/7/1 21:49 Updated: 2008/7/1 21:49 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/8/3 From: Orthodox Bunker Posts: 343 |
Thanks for the true picture David and I hope many people chipped in to help you with that expensive visit!
|
| Cennydd | Posted: 2008/7/1 22:03 Updated: 2008/7/1 22:03 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
None of this comes as a surprise, of course....considering how "sensationalist" the liberal British press has been for so many eons.....not that the American liberal press has been any better. Riazat Butt did indeed do a hatchet job....as has been her wont.
Cennydd |
| Keble | Posted: 2008/7/1 22:05 Updated: 2008/7/1 22:05 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/13 From: Posts: 206 |
One should not be so quick to dismiss the opinions of the other side.
When GAFCON and other pseudo-orthodox are willing to have a blind eye tolerating the Scriptural prohibitions to WO, it is somewhat selective to embrace the Scripture to (properly) condemn the gay agenda. Does anyone recall something about removing a beam from one's own eye before going after the mote? Keble |
| iceworm | Posted: 2008/7/1 22:08 Updated: 2008/7/2 0:23 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/3/21 From: Anchorage, Alaska US Posts: 153 |
[
Well, David and everybody, I am not sure about the xenophobia part, but the little that I have read of N.T. Wright available on the Web, convinced me he is not Christian. That is he and the ABC are in the same boat that is foundering. |
| DomWalk | Posted: 2008/7/1 22:40 Updated: 2008/7/1 22:40 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/9 From: Left Coast, USA Posts: 619 |
iceworm, from everything I've read, he's above all an N. T. Wright-ist.
+ + + |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2008/7/1 22:58 Updated: 2008/7/1 23:00 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Keble, are you by chance an apologist for the reappraiser side? You appear to be that way.
Just curious. Cennydd |
| otispage2 | Posted: 2008/7/1 23:04 Updated: 2008/7/1 23:04 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 615 |
That "gay baiting" press of England and the United States are filled with gays, lesbians and bisexuals. They are a fraternity that sing a consistent song -- that anyone or any religion -- or any poltical cause that criticizes them are "de facto" homophobics.
Hemosexualism is the religion -- and that religion subverts all others to their own teaching that holds homosexuality is a gift of God and not a sin. And with that admission that homosexuality is not a sin then cascades the principle and concept of sexual sin on the altar serving Satan and not Jesus Christ. |
| DomWalk | Posted: 2008/7/1 23:42 Updated: 2008/7/1 23:47 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/9 From: Left Coast, USA Posts: 619 |
Cennydd: it's single-issue monomania, like most of the inconsequential mini-schisms. WO is the only distinctive. In every other way, it's empty liberal revisionist ceremonialism, just like TEC. And very bitter ankle-biting envy at the success of GAFCON.
In a nutshell, classic Dog in the Manger stuff. + + + |
| daveball | Posted: 2008/7/2 0:38 Updated: 2008/7/2 0:38 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/12/18 From: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 2377 |
David,
Thank you for this most enlightening report. It is hard to find anything honest in the media anymore. I fear that this is just a warm up for Lambeth. Just imagine these looney tunes on their home turf? The media is hugely biased toward the LGBT gang - it's full of them. The liberal message also appeals to the "anti establishment" bias. I can just see the reporting from Lambeth palace, especially with Vicky and Mark as well as Suzie, Queen Lutibelle and whoever else is there cheerleading. But the bottom line is this; the conservatives are being faithful to God and His commands. One can do no more. What others do is their problem. We have no control over that. The British press is, thankfully, in Britain, a land of rapidly increasing irrelevence. The ineffective Queen and the monsterously ineffective Archbishop of Canterbury are merely charactures for a disintigrating C of E in a disintigrating nation. Again, I really don't care what Lambeth says or does because it has ceased to have any meaning in the Anglican faith. I care even less what goes on in the UK. It can continue its trajectory toward being the land of buggary. Their problem, not mine. Lord bless the GAFCON bishops and their efforts to cleanse the communion of the heresy that is festering in TEc, Acc and elsewhere. |
| MichaelA | Posted: 2008/7/2 2:58 Updated: 2008/7/2 2:58 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
""It was a serious snub to Dr Rowan Williams, an assertion of power from the Evangelicals," wrote Bingham. Not true. They wrote up a document that almost any Christian over the last 2,000 years could subscribe to. Now they want to know where Williams' stands! They asked him point blank. So what's wrong with that?"
Indeed. Often the best defence against evil is simply to name it, publicly and openly, which is what Gafcon has done. "The post-colonial mentality of Williams and the Church of England hierarchs, like Bishop N. T. Wright, are appalling examples of xenophobia. The vast majority of the Anglican Communion who are Black, under 30 and female, will no longer take it. They are done. Their leaders have tolerated the patronizing tones of Williams long enough. They are also fed up with the liberal lead American House of Bishops and its presiding oceanographer Katharine Jefferts Schori." Amen. And thank God for them. "...you can be sure the "Telegraph," "the Guardian", the BBC and "The Times" will find ways to make it look like the Africans are a bunch of theological troglodytes who have just stepped out of the bush and are one step away from wearing loin cloths. Ironically, the documents they will bear in their hands will look strangely familiar, it will be the Bible in one hand and a Ph.D. earned at Oxford or Cambridge in the other." Amen! Our Lord is colour blind and will reward any that honour Him. |
| UKUSER | Posted: 2008/7/2 9:26 Updated: 2008/7/2 9:26 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/21 From: United Kingdom Posts: 246 |
Dear All,
As someone living in Britain and in the 'thick of it' as regards Anglican controversy I don't think any of you have greasped the following points: - 1) Rowan Williams has NEVER had any intention of surrendering his pro-homosexual stance and no amount of pressure from Gafcon will make him do so. 2) A man in Williams' position will have no alternative but to interpret Gafcon as a snub to his (albeit imaginary) authority - his latest statement indicate that he's interpreted it in this way DV however is right about the appalling bias in both the right and left wing British media. The Telegraph is supposed to be a highly conservative newspaper. Shame on them! |
| aaytch | Posted: 2008/7/2 11:40 Updated: 2008/7/2 12:08 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/26 From: Posts: 91 |
1. Is it not true that several of the GAFCON leaders left in the middle of the conference, including Duncan and Acrofi?
2. Is it not true that several bishops who had previously declared they were not going to Lambeth have now reversed their decisions? 3. Is it not true that the GAFCON declaration made little progress toward creating a roadmap for worldwide Anglican reformation? 4. Is it not true that orthodox American and Canadian parishes are continuing with foreign bishops with no end in sight? 5. Is it not true that hundreds of thousands of Episcopalian Christians remain bound as captives by TEC as a result of the GAFCON leaders failing, once again, to establish a true place of refuge? David, I think the secular press attacked GAFCON precisely because it accomplished so little and its leaders appear so weak and feckless. |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2008/7/2 13:36 Updated: 2008/7/2 13:38 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
1. If they did leave during the conference, it was due to other commitments, such as in +Duncan's case; a family affair, or so I've read.
2. Bishops are free to change their mind, I believe....just as you and I are. 3. Not true. Read the entire declaration thoroughly. 4. The answer is "yes," and for good and compelling reasons. 5. No. They're free to leave; all it takes is commitment. The secular press attacked GAFCON because it represented a threat. Cennydd |
| Anglicanum | Posted: 2008/7/2 14:15 Updated: 2008/7/2 14:18 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/1/17 From: Georgia Posts: 16 |
Iceworm,
I think that you are terribly misguided regarding Bishop Wright. First of all, why are you basing your opinion of him from the web, and not the numerous books that he has written? If you have a problem with his Biblical scholarship, then do so on those grounds, and not simply by what's available on the web. I do believe that +Tom Wright is a sincere Christian, but of course, I'm not the one in charge of deciding that, now am I? |
| jaa02vts | Posted: 2008/7/2 15:11 Updated: 2008/7/2 15:12 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/7/1 From: Posts: 1 |
I am a guest here on this website, and thank you for publishing my comments - I believe in dialogue, and as a "secular" Englishman I wish to criticise what is being said around this issue.
It seems that most of you live in a completely different culture to mine, and are completely unwilling to consider things from another's point of view. Nevertheless, I shall present mine. I take offence at the suggestion that criticism of homophobia is xenophobic or (post)colonialist. British newspapers are free to criticise whoever or whatever they like, including people living in former colonies of the British Empire. Is criticism of gay people being stoned to death in Iraq xenophobic? The secular media is not "dominated" by people from who are Lesbian, Gay, or Bisexual (this particular criticism is part of the same old myth that gives us "too many Jews in the media"), it is dominated by rational, free-thinking people who base their morality on the principles of the Enlightenment and Humanism - the same kind of people who promoted and enabled the end of colonialism. |
| Dominic | Posted: 2008/7/2 15:25 Updated: 2008/7/2 15:27 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/10 From: London Posts: 285 |
N T Wright's views on theology, especially Pauline theology, are just plain wrong. He is also wrong on a number of other matters, including being dismissive of GAFCON. However, none of that means that he does not know the Lord Jesus Christ as his Saviour.
After all, if you asked the ploughman in his field about the depths of theology he would get much 'wrong' too, but his faith in Christ Jesus would be there to see anyway. Without wanting to offend anyone and not knowing any other way to put it, much of the trouble within the Christian church, and very noticeably now within the CofE and the worldwide Anglican communion, is caused by individuals who are leading the national churches who because of their ignorance about the faith should merely be sitting in the pews - rather than being caused by the fact that they do not have any - because they might! (no offence intended to the pew sitters!) |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2008/7/2 17:09 Updated: 2008/7/2 17:09 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Welcome to VOL, jaa02vts!
I agree with your comments with regard to criticism, but I take issue with the principle of Humanism and its connection with the newspapers, and all of the media. I believe, with others, that Humanism, and in particular, Secular Humanism itself is at the core of much of the problem currently facing Anglican Christianity. It has been allowed to creep into seminaries and theological colleges in the US, Canada, and in the UK, among other Anglican provinces, and it has manifested itself in the questioning of Christ's divinity, the denial of the authority of Holy Scripture, and other practices which have caused the Church to depart from Biblical teaching. By sensationalizing the civil war between Anglican factions, the newspapers in both of our countries have only served to inflame emotions on all sides of the issues now confronting us all. News such as this sells papers. Their responsibility is to serve the public by honestly and without partiality publishing the news; not by influencing the Church. Cennydd |
| Keble | Posted: 2008/7/2 19:22 Updated: 2008/7/2 19:31 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/13 From: Posts: 206 |
Cennydd,
I am an apologist only for the Cross of Christ. However, when the emperor (or bishop) has no clothes, I am not afraid to shout out that he is really butt naked. The point the reappraiser side makes, whether one wants to hear it or not, is that many of those speaking out against the gay agenda have defacto lost the moral authority of using Scriptural norms because they have embraced unscriptural WO. These bishops (specifically, Duncan, Orombi, Guernsey, Anderson, & most others save Schofield & Ackerman and perhaps a few more) have given the Scriptures a wink and a nod in favor of WO. It is then blatantly opportunistic for them to attack the gay agenda by citing Old and New Testament passages as normative for morality and Church worship and governance. In short, the new revisionists bishops cherry pick the WO verses just like the gay lobby does with the homosexual verses. These bishops have no moral standing to talk the talk unless they are willing to walk the walk. Sadly, they do not walk the walk. Note how much wiggle room these same bishops left themselves at GAFCON for so called "matters of secondary importance" translated as we will not abandon our priestesses for any reason - period. Sounds remarkably similar and strident to those in the TEC who will never abandon VGR and friends. Keble |
| warmac9999 | Posted: 2008/7/2 20:44 Updated: 2008/7/2 20:44 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/2/16 From: Posts: 1463 |
I can understand how the bishops got caught up in the civil rights movement for women. The argument was simple - women can't help but be women. It is a happenstance of biology. Where the problem occurs is that the women promoted to the pulpit came from and continue to come from the radical feminist movement that has no limits of any kind, whether biological or behavioral.
Essentially, the promotion of women within the clergy and now the ranks of bishops has promoted not just the women's movement but all other civil rights movements regardless of the consequences to the church. The bishops should have been more circumspect and more in touch with the laity, but they weren't and now the Anglican Communion will dissolve into many factions. There is no way back. |
| Newshound | Posted: 2008/7/2 20:56 Updated: 2008/7/2 20:56 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/5 From: Posts: 238 |
David,
As usual, you are right on the money. The "pro-homosexual behaviour" lobby (which includes much the secular media), doesn't get it. Orthodox Christianity is about obeying the authority of the Bible, which prohibits homosexual behavior. Its not about "rebels" or "power hungry". The true authority of the evangelical movement is tne power of the word 2 Timothy 3:16 |
| quissum | Posted: 2008/7/2 21:12 Updated: 2008/7/2 21:12 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/18 From: Posts: 338 |
Dear friend jaa02vats,
I appreciate the candor of your statement and can imagine your consternation at falling into the VOL community! It is regretable that so many of us who profess the orthodox Christian Faith no doubt seem 'hostile' and 'unloving,' hardly showing the love (at least in these blogs) that our Lord said would show the world that we are His disciples. It is important to understand, however, that something we value most highly--the very integrity of our Faith--is under assault. We are, after all, people under authority, the very divine Authority revealed in Holy Scripture that the Enlightenment sought to relegate to superstition--the "infamy" that Voltaire wanted in fact to obliterate. There is a long history to the issues which you catch bits of in the media--by no means unbiased--and to which VOL acts as an important source of information and a forum for discussion for those orthodox and evangelical Christians who are generally vilified and definitely misrepresented in the secular press. My comments are certainly not intended to justify the often strongly expressed semtiments you find on VOL. Being human--though reborn by the grace of God in Christ--we still retain many features of our old natures--anger, frustration, limited perspective among many others. Still, we do have Holy Scripture and, we believe, the inner witness of the Holy Spirit to inform and guide our thinking. Thus, many of the issues you perhaps consider matters of indifference are not so in spiritual and theological terms. So, while regretting the poor witness to ideal Christian unity the VOL forum too often represents, I hope you also will endeavor to learn more about exactly why it is that homosexuality and the crisis in the Anglican Communion are genuinely significant, even from a secular, humanistic perspective. |
| Fidelis | Posted: 2008/7/2 21:16 Updated: 2008/7/2 21:16 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/2/25 From: Sydney Posts: 72 |
This is actually a good point David:
"To accuse evangelicals of being "power hungry" is to miss the point of this conference entirely (Hobson was not there). They do not want power at all. What they want is for Williams to say what he believes and uphold what has always been taught about Scripture and sexuality, a prospect they now believe he won't or can't do. They are probably right." If we think like 'churchmen' for a moment, then the whole thing becomes an exercise in power. Who has it; who wants to have it, who stands to lose it, how do you keep what you've got. It is my premise [ thinking as a churchman, not an evangelical for a moment] that Williams missed an incredible opportunity. There in Jerusalem, a gathering of the most vital, energetic, effective Anglican leaders in world, was BEGGING, BEGGING, the Archbishop of Canterbury to grab back the initative. To return to orthodoxy, to return to the fold, to assume in repentance and faith his true calling, to take back the power GAFCON was offering him. But no, he is caught in a web of his own spinning. Yes, for a churchman, in spite of his human intellect, or perhaps because of it, power is the ultimate aphrodisiac. Its all rather simple; and journalists are part of the power-play. They still hold enormous power, and love manipulating the players on the board. I know, to my shame, I was one. |
| MichaelA | Posted: 2008/7/3 6:32 Updated: 2008/7/3 6:38 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
jaa02vts,
You wrote: "I take offence at the suggestion that criticism of homophobia is xenophobic or (post)colonialist." I agree that it would be quite wrong to say that someone who criticises "homophobia" (as you put it) is being xenophobic, per se. But that is not our point. I will charitably assume that you are unaware of some of the language used by "enlightened" westerners about the African churches who support Gafcon. One of the more restrained comments was that they were only waiting for their "chicken dinners" that the west would hand out to them. Whether you like it or not, "enlightened" westerners do regularly use racist and colonialist comments. Both the Africans and we who stand in fellowship with them are entitled to object to that. Regards Michael |
| MichaelA | Posted: 2008/7/3 6:57 Updated: 2008/7/3 6:57 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
Keble wrote:
"These bishops (specifically, Duncan, Orombi, Guernsey, Anderson, & most others save Schofield & Ackerman and perhaps a few more) have given the Scriptures a wink and a nod in favor of WO. It is then blatantly opportunistic for them to attack the gay agenda by citing Old and New Testament passages as normative for morality and Church worship and governance." You should check the accuracy of your statements. "& most others"? So far as I am aware, ++Orombi is one of the very few African bishops to support the ordination of women. Do you dispute that? The others who do are liberal. On the other side of the equation, ++Peter Akinola, ++Benjamin Nzimbi, ++Emmanual Kolini and ++Justice Akrofi all disagree with the ordination of women. Even without Uganda, I think that would constitute a majority of Anglicans in the world. Yet you say, "Schofield & Ackerman and perhaps a few more" are the only ones who are against WO. Did you perhaps not think the African bishops worth mentioning? Going further afield, my understanding is that ++Gregory Venables does not ordain women, nor ++Peter Jensen (who despite not being a primate, has more Anglicans in his churches each Sunday than most Primates). Moving on to the USA, I wasn't aware that +Jack Iker ordained women... am I wrong? +Minns has congregations with female priests who fled to CANA, but he has made it quite clear that Nigeria does not ordain women and nor will he. Let's see, who else was at Gafcon - Reformed Episcopal Church. They don't ordain women either. (I might add that quite a few of these diocese have female deacons, but they do not hold liturgical or leadership functions, which I think is quite in accord with scripture). Yet you seem determined to tell us all that Gafcon is into WO, almost without exception. One is entitled to query your real motive. You then say, "Note how much wiggle room these same bishops left themselves at GAFCON for so called "matters of secondary importance" translated as we will not abandon our priestesses for any reason - period. Sounds remarkably similar and strident to those in the TEC who will never abandon VGR and friends." There is no indication at all that "matters of secondary importance" is intended to cover WO. Perhaps you can't handle the idea that these bishops and their flock are standing up to Schori and Canterbury. What have you done in their place? |
| MichaelA | Posted: 2008/7/3 7:11 Updated: 2008/7/3 7:11 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
aaytch, you write:
"3. Is it not true that the GAFCON declaration made little progress toward creating a roadmap for worldwide Anglican reformation?" No, it isn't true. Next question, please! "4. Is it not true that orthodox American and Canadian parishes are continuing with foreign bishops with no end in sight?" I don't know about "no end in sight", but its certainly true that orthodox American and Canadian parishes are continuing with foreign bishops. Don't you like foreigners? "5. Is it not true that hundreds of thousands of Episcopalian Christians remain bound as captives by TEC as a result of the GAFCON leaders failing, once again, to establish a true place of refuge?" Even our Lord does not offer us a "place of refuge", so why should Gafcon leaders offer it? The Gadarene man wanted to go with Jesus after he was exorcised, but our Lord sent him back among his people, the only Christian in that country (and with spectacular results). So it is with us - we are sent straight back into the world as witnesses. What Gafcon has done is legitimise those congregations and dioceses that have cut ties with the apostate national churches. It is now up to those "hundreds of thousands of Episcopalian Christians" to whom you refer to decide whom they will serve. If they are prepared to fight the good fight by finding a faithful congregation (or by departing from TEC or ACoC with their entire congregation), then Gafcon will support them - but so they can fight, not so they can sit on their hands. Nobody has to be "bound as captives" - that is a choice, not a state. Anyone who thinks that Gafcon is going to do all their work for them is sadly mistaken - Gafcon calls everyone to fight the spiritual fight, at the individual, congregational and diocesan levels. Sorry, but that's the way it is. |
| UKUSER | Posted: 2008/7/3 8:20 Updated: 2008/7/3 8:20 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/21 From: United Kingdom Posts: 246 |
Alas dear Anglicanum,there appear to be two Tom Wrights. There's TW1 the profound theologian who does have something valuable to say in his books and there's TW2 - the blinkered institutionalist who's contribution to recent debates has amounted to little more than sniping at those who have made a stand for truth. It's this mixture which cause him to be one of the most dangerous misleading voices in Anglicanism today.
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| UKUSER | Posted: 2008/7/3 8:43 Updated: 2008/7/3 8:44 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/21 From: United Kingdom Posts: 246 |
"It seems that most of you live in a completely different culture to mine"
Like yourself I am a born and bred Englishman so I feel qualified to respond to some of the points you've raised. "and are completely unwilling to consider things from another's point of view." To some extent your observation is valid but there does come a point where dialogue becomes a sheer waste of time and the only thing which can be done is arrange a parting of ways. I believe on the basis of solid evidence that this point has now been reached with the Anglican Communion. "Is criticism of gay people being stoned to death in Iraq xenophobic?" Fair comment as I've learnt from bitter experience that those who want to harm homosexuals usually have me next on their hit list. However, it ignores the behaviour of the Pink Storm troopers who drove the Bishop of Rochester from his home and the vandalism they've committed on Jesmond Parish Church. Their behaviour can indeed be compared to Roehm's SA. "The secular media is not "dominated" by people from who are Lesbian, Gay, or Bisexual (this particular criticism is part of the same old myth that gives us "too many Jews in the media")," They are however a strong influence even on entertainment shows like Dr Who. "It is dominated by rational, free-thinking people who base their morality on the principles of the Enlightenment and Humanism." What's enlightened about Secular Humanism? In Britain it's promoted the uncontrolled growth of the state, it's also spawned a mindless hedonism which is causing young people to be knifed in broad daylight (once nearly costing the life of my eldest son) and it's created a spiritual vacuum now being filled by the most violent forms of fundamentalism. Secular Humanism has brought Britain to its knees. Indeed, you only have visit most city centres on Saturday night to see this. Britain is a nation languishing in its own moral depravity. In addition, it has fostered a culture of spin of which Tony Blair and Rowan Williams are the most adept practitioners. Our secular Society is in deep trouble and I only hope America doesn't travel the same route. |
| warmac9999 | Posted: 2008/7/3 17:41 Updated: 2008/7/3 17:50 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/2/16 From: Posts: 1463 |
Secularism, socialism, and moral relativism are all intertwined. If you get rid of God, then the fallible secular state and fallible secular humans become a substitute for God. Since socialism, whether national or international, depends on the government being God, the proponents of socialism readily adopt and promote secularism. Since any type of social absolute creates a problem for legalistic and regulative secularism, religion must be suppressed or co-opted for state purposes.
Christianity is inherently in conflict with the immoral, decadent and perverse behaviors advocated by the secular socialist movement. The church is but one battleground and GAFCON is a natural and needed reaction to the destructive nature of secular socialism. However, the trends in all Western societies are not favorable for the improvement of the human species. The understanding of the ever present importance of Jesus is necessary for successful human living. |
| cjanning | Posted: 2008/7/3 18:36 Updated: 2008/7/3 18:36 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/12/19 From: Deep East Texas Posts: 279 |
jaa02vts writes:...it seems that most of you live in a completely different culture to mine...
True. And I thank God every day for that too... |
| Keble | Posted: 2008/7/4 2:07 Updated: 2008/7/4 2:42 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/13 From: Posts: 206 |
MichaelA
I think you miss the point of this entire thread. Neither WO nor homosexuality is permissable on Scriptural grounds. Both groups perform unjustifiable and indefensible theological contortions to justify their positions. Gay activists cry foul when a Scriptural prohibition against homosexuality is proclaimed by those who either ordain women or those who remain in communion with those who ordain women. It is indeed a double standard. Bishops who do not ordain women, Africa included, remain in communion with those bishops who embrace and defend non-Scriptural WO. They turn a blind eye to those who ignore the Scriptures or twist them for their own ends. The homosexual argument says if you accept WO when it is against Scripture, you should do the same with gay sex. Both positions are wrong but the point made by homosexuals and their supporters is consistent. The continued communion by African bishops and the mere handful of US bishops who do not ordain women with those African and US bishops who believe in and ordain women while rejecting homosexuailty is inconsistent. Those who proclaim the Anglican "troubles" are not about homosexuality but about not believing the Scriptures are shading the truth. Keble |
| MichaelA | Posted: 2008/7/4 9:27 Updated: 2008/7/4 9:34 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
Keble,
On the contrary, I see the point very well. You write: "Bishops who do not ordain women, Africa included, remain in communion with those bishops who embrace and defend non-Scriptural WO". For the present, that is true. But you then follow with a non-sequitur: "They turn a blind eye to those who ignore the Scriptures or twist them for their own ends." This is hardly turning a blind eye. The Gafcon statement is very clear, and does not allow for women priests. That is a witness to those who do ordain women priests. They are given time to repent. If they do not, then we the orthodox will have to separate from them. However, unlike e.g. the hyper-isolationist Anglican Catholic Church, we do not separate lightly, for separation is the ultimate sanction for a church. Let me be clear about this, because it is a very important point of orthodoxy: Scripture teaches us not to separate from other brethren simply because they hold to a wrong teaching; rather, we are to make every effort to win back those brethren to the truth - most of Paul's epistles illustrate this truth in action. It is only if it is plain after many efforts to show the truth that a church or person will not repent of their ways, that we move to separate. "The continued communion by African bishops and the mere handful of US bishops who do not ordain women with those African and US bishops who believe in and ordain women while rejecting homosexuailty is inconsistent." No it isn't, for reasons outlined above. "Those who proclaim the Anglican "troubles" are not about homosexuality but about not believing the Scriptures are shading the truth." No we are not. We are proclaiming the truth. Isolationist attitudes like yours saw the splintering of the Continuing Anglican movement at a rate as fast as the most divisive Protestant fringe groups. It has nothing to offer orthodox Anglicanism. |
| patulous | Posted: 2008/7/4 13:21 Updated: 2008/7/4 13:22 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/18 From: Posts: 1778 |
This is an excellent report by David. I have enjoyed the responses by everyone, even if the responses were somewhat negative.
God bless you all. |
| DomWalk | Posted: 2008/7/8 12:34 Updated: 2008/7/8 15:33 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/9 From: Left Coast, USA Posts: 619 |
Very well said, MichaelA.
Venables has been very succinct (and correct) about this. The consecration of homosexuality within the church destroys the Gospel, and is a first-level issue. Women's ordination is wrong, and overturning it is important, but it is not a first-level issue. Those of us who go further on this than Venables has stated -- following Paul's very clear teaching -- and believe that women should be neither deacons, nor acolytes, neither serve on the vestry, nor as lay readers, nor take the offering will be prayerfully making the case for full conformance with traditional Anglican practice in these issues. Those who monomaniacally make women priests the issue through which they view all church issues have blinded themselves to all the liberal innovations in their own churches and have themselves a distorted Gospel, something very evident in the shriveled, barren, bitter fruit of the (un-)Anglican (dis-)continuum. + + + |






















