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Exclusives : JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Ratify New Direction for Church

Posted by David Virtue on 2008/6/29 17:20:00 (5676 reads)

JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Ratify New Direction for Church

By David W. Virtue in Jerusalem
www.virtueonline.org
June 29, 2008

Describing it as a solemn and important moment, Sydney Archbishop Peter Jensen told 1,200 pilgrims at the Renaissance Hotel that the Anglican Communion "is about to receive a dose of order."

Moments later, Nigerian Primate Peter Akinola stepped up to the podium and announced that a statement had been written and accepted by the leadership. Copies were then handed to all the participants. Ugandan Archbishop Henry Luke Orombi proceeded to solemnly read it aloud.

At the conclusion of the Statement, the delegates rose to their feet as one and broke into applause.

Akinola then returned to the podium and asked, "Is it your will it be adopted. Cries of 'yes' resounded throughout the ballroom."

The Archbishop of Tanzania, the Rt. Rev. Valentino Mokiwa then rose and asked for the people's prayers. Immediately, Archbishops Peter Akinola (Nigeria), Henry Luke Orombi (Uganda) Greg Venables, (Southern Cone) and Emmanuel Kolini (Rwanda) stepped up to the podium and publicly signed the document. Archbishop Mokiwa (Tanzania) still needs to obtain clearance from his House of Bishops, but indicated that would not be a problem. Archbishop Peter Jensen also affirmed the document, but could not sign it as he is not a Primate. Archbishop Justice Akrofi (West Africa) also signed it.

"That glorious future we have been looking forward too has been borne," cried Akinola. The 1200 pilgrims then stood as one and broke out in the doxology.

The Nigerian Primate then gave the final blessing. The delegates roared "Amen" and sang an African hymn. Following this, they all broke out and sang, "To God be the Glory great things he has done."

Dr. Os Guinness, author, social critic, and plenary speaker told VOL, "This is an historic moment. 200 years of slow hemorrhaging of faith from the liberal revisionism of the Enlightenment has finally been staunched by a major movement of faith and truth."

What has happened here today in Jerusalem is momentous. A new day has dawned for world Anglicanism. The Anglican Communion will never be the same again.

What they told the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams, was clear and unequivocal. They will not tolerate a global communion with a colonial structure. They then said Dr. Williams had overturned the conciliar authority of the Communion by deflecting the Primates' demand in 2003 for discipline of TEC. Above all, they stated that they don't need to go through Canterbury to get to Jesus. The participants also affirmed the need for a new North American Anglican province, which will undoubtedly get Mrs. Katharine Jefferts Schori, the Presiding Bishop, riled up and consulting her attorney, David Booth Beers. Since none of the U.S. bishops here signed the document, there is not a lot she can do.

What the participants heard today, they will carry back to their parishes and dioceses in the US and Canada. What they say will only hasten the schism started by liberals and revisionists with their actions in 2003.

At a press conference, the five primates, including Bishop David Anderson of CANA, were questioned on the statement with one reporter asking if the statement was more magisterial than expected. Archbishop Orombi replied that it was within the framework of the Anglican Communion with recognition, for the moment, that Dr. Rowan Williams was still the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Nigerian Archbishop Peter Akinola said that with the turmoil in the Anglican Communion this Declaration is "a fresh hope and fresh beginning. We are going to send it out with a covering letter as a chance to renew... to start all over again and march on."

Asked if GAFCON is "a church within a church" Akinola said "No". "I don't agree with that description. We are part of the worldwide church."

He said that history has been made. "What we have today is not just Global South members, but a global coming together of faithful Anglicans from around the world. What the official Instruments of the Communion have not been able to do this conference has done."

Questioned about who would support a new North American Anglican orthodox Province, Bishop David Anderson said all the Episcopal bishops present were on board. "There was an overwhelming consensus. Our hope is for a re-gathering of a portion of the church that has scattered. Heterodoxy is untenable."

He said that the new province will not be just the US and Canada, but it will be transnational in character. Asked about a timeline, Anderson said, "We want to go home and figure out what needs to be done."

Questioned about the American Anglican Council and the American Anglican Network, Anderson said, "to the extent that they are part of the communion, they are all signatories of Common Cause and Bishop Robert Duncan is moderator of both AAN and CCP.

Asked about the implications of the province being a new legal entity, Anderson said they would have to explore that over the coming months.

"The Province is in a proto stage. It has gone a long way and we would need to see how that plays out. Perhaps, by the end of the year, we will have a petition to lay before the Primates."

END

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Poster	Thread
Ikerliker	Posted: 2008/6/29 23:31 Updated: 2008/6/29 23:31
Home away from home Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2046	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... This is what I have been waiting for! Global South has restored order and told the revisionists it ends here. I think Rowan Williams is now a lame duck and has been reduced to less than a figure head. The Canterbury Communion is toast. I think Archbishop Akinola's comment about being part of the worldwide church is extremely significant. Thanks be to God!

Cennydd	Posted: 2008/6/30 0:47 Updated: 2008/6/30 0:47
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... The Canterbury Centerpiece will soon be a Museum Piece. Archbishop of WHAT? You mean that little bit of England southeast of London? In its place will be a revitalized non-Canterbury Anglican Communion....or should I say Communion of Anglican Churches....free of the corrupting influence of those Western Churches which have long since departed from the Faith once delivered to the Saints. The title of one of Fanny J. Crosby's great hymns says it all: "To God Be the Glory, Great Things He Hath Done!" Cennydd

daveball	Posted: 2008/6/30 0:55 Updated: 2008/6/30 0:55
Home away from home Joined: 2004/12/18 From: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 2281	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... I can just imagine the Presiding Heretic's displeasure Sunday as she slipped out of her Clown Mass outfit and donned a Hillary Clinton hand me down power pant suit. "Get me DBB" she shouts. "I'll show them who da man is". "How dare they defy me, the smartest squidologist around, er make that theologian or whatever. How to handle this kind of stuff was never on my seminary on line degree web site". "Yo, DBB, go enter a dozen suits tomorrow. Depose a couple of those slimy orthodox bishops. Lock a couple parishes." "What gay organizations in Virginia can we rally to discredit their courts who obviously don't know as much about heresy as we do." "I hope Wormwood doesn't show up with a message from the Council of Hades accusing us of screwing up. We're right because I said so." "Just wait until Jack Iker and Bob Duncan get back. I can't wait to depose those guys. The nerve of them claiming that the Bible is actually correct and that the only way to the Father is through Jesus. And that stuff about salvation! What will all my Hindu and Muslim friends say if I tell them they won't get to heaven?" "What tie should I wear with this suit?"

ExTEcNJ	Posted: 2008/6/30 1:29 Updated: 2008/6/30 1:29
Not too shy to talk Joined: 2007/5/3 From: Caught between the moon and New York City (20 miles from the latter) Posts: 21	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... All this on the Feast of Saints Peter and Saint Paul. They must be happy, too. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, lift up thy gates and sing: Hosanna in the highest; Hosanna to our King!"

5string	Posted: 2008/6/30 2:02 Updated: 2008/6/30 2:02
Just popping in Joined: 2007/8/10 From: longview. wa Posts: 4	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... This is my first post to this list. I'm a cradle Episcopalian who left the church for a good while after I went into the service, and when I returned was astounded at the changes..WO, nix to the 28 BCP, denial of Biblical Authority, and now this mess with the sodomite "bishop" being gushed over by the liberal contingent---ie, those who are all for "tolerance" and "diversity" and who will put up with about anything...except a conservative. Here is a ray of hope. I live in a small Washington town, and the only Anglican parish is many miles away. Perhaps, just perhaps, a new day's dawin' a new times comin' by and by Lord, By and By. John the Jeweler

Keble	Posted: 2008/6/30 2:51 Updated: 2008/6/30 2:57
Home away from home Joined: 2005/11/13 From: Posts: 206	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... Welcome 5string. "WO, nix to the 28 BCP, denial of Biblical Authority, and now this mess with the sodomite "bishop" being gushed over by the liberal contingent---ie, those who are all for "tolerance" and "diversity" and who will put up with about anything...except a conservative. Here is a ray of hope." Maybe not a ray of hope but a glimmer at best. WO is here to stay with this bunch and the 1928 BCP is still up for grabs. Biblical authority gets a deceitful wink, at least when it come to WO. Hey, but at least the sodomites are gone, or at least, back in the closet. The views expressed here may be cynical but probably are not far from the truth. Keble

otispage2	Posted: 2008/6/30 3:22 Updated: 2008/6/30 3:22
Home away from home Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 602	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... It is prudent to be cautious -- for there will be a definite counter action by the homosexual led revisionists -- but I am amazed by the strength and simplicity of the GAFCON witness. God be praised -- for a fresh wind from Africa is moving to remove the stench now existing in TEC and the Western branch of the Communion. That wind is His regenerating Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:2)

SaintElvis	Posted: 2008/6/30 11:59 Updated: 2008/6/30 11:59
Just can't stay away Joined: 2008/5/4 From: Posts: 125	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... Caution and not overstating the situation is in order. There have been many suggestions in the past that change would come and they did not pan out and many were disillusioned. If this event does not result in concrete measues than your heretics will make use of it against you. Things are not clear yet and it is wise to wait until the dust settles and statements can be verified and clarified before you react. Right now it seems ++Akinola has been 'quoted' as saying there will be no split. ++Jenson has been"quoted" as saying the same thing. +Anderson says there will be a split and the criticism of the Church within a Church thing has been brought up. The Bible does not call for a 'church within a church' it states "do not be yoked to infidels" many times in one way or another. That means either you excommunicate the heretics (Articles) or you get away from them if they are too powerful. Yoked or no which is it? I cannot tell by the statements. But I hope it is indeed unyoked at last. I don't mean to rain on the parade but as one who has watched this parade for over a decade and observed Anglican 'Fudge' being made over and over I think prayer rather than celebration may be in order.

Cennydd	Posted: 2008/6/30 12:41 Updated: 2008/6/30 12:45
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... There will indeed be "much wailing and gnashing of teeth" among heretics and apostates, and we will hear it emanating from Lambeth. We conservatives....who are THE MAJORITY IN THE ANGLICAN COMMUNION must make it abundantly clear that for us, there is no turning back from the course set for us in Jerusalem this past week. Our delegates to Lambeth....our bishops and primates....must tell the revisionists of the Anglican Communion that either they abandon the course which they have set, or they are FINISHED ....that it's all over! Rowan Cantuar knows that his survival....even that of the See of Canterbury itself....is at stake. Dark forces within the Communion....The Episcopal Church, the Anglican Church of Canada, and revisionists in control of the Church in other countries, ALL of which have the same goal, are saying, and will continue to say, that WE are the schismatics.....that it is WE who are responsible for the mess the Communion is in, while all the while refusing to admit that if they had not done what they did in the first place, none of what has transpired would ever have happened! God's will is being done, and it is HE who decides our fate as a Church. We are HIS, and HE decides our actions....not we ourselves. It's time to get the show on the road. Cennydd

HowieG	Posted: 2008/6/30 12:49 Updated: 2008/6/30 12:51
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/1 From: Central Massachusetts Posts: 231	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... Even though this declaration sounds great, and I truly pray that the AC takes heed, let me remind you of one of my "rules of physics": "Any concept, plan, proclamation, design, or theory can exist in two dimensions (paper), man, however, lives in a three dimension world." (God is multi-dimensional, and therefore, is not governed my this.) Unless action takes place, the entire GAFcon activity will only become another footnote. If this sounds pessimistic, I'm sorry; but the current track record for organized change is extremely poor. Until I see some real activity, I'll stick with my small circle of prayer partners, and work with them in spreading the Message. My approach: humble prayerful heart attitudes with a strong message of Hope and Salvation are what brings people to Christ. H

SaintElvis	Posted: 2008/6/30 12:54 Updated: 2008/6/30 12:54
Just can't stay away Joined: 2008/5/4 From: Posts: 125	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... Cenny, I agree with much of what you say. But possibly you ought reconsider the word 'conservative' in fact all who comment or read this ought consider the word is not biblical and the quest here seems to be one of a reawakening. "Conservative" is no where found in the Bible It is a political word and if you are a political operative trying to affect God's kingdom then you will fail for politics is of man. U.S. and British and Canadian social 'conservatives' have failed miserably to form themselves over the years, or articulate the Gospel, they have a spotty theology at best and often are beholden to facades and perks and institutions. Liberals who are politicians forcing 1960's social justice ideas on the Church are politicians and they want to frame you as such as well which aids in justifying their campaign. Even the generic evangelicals who have not a whit what Anglicanism is ought avoid describing themselves with a secular moniker.

SixDays	Posted: 2008/6/30 13:11 Updated: 2008/6/30 13:11
Home away from home Joined: 2006/2/23 From: G.K.K. Posts: 304	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... Generally, I have been one of the skeptics here with respect to a change resulting from GAFCON. I was orgininally excited when I first read the Jerusalem text. However, my excitement waned when I discovered that many, both here and in my own parish, think that paragraph 12 of the text is a way out for those who want to keep WO and the 79 BCP. Sadly, after rereading the text, I suspect they may be correct. SD

Cennydd	Posted: 2008/6/30 13:20 Updated: 2008/6/30 13:24
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... By no stretch of the imagination do I consider myself to be a politician. PERISH the thought! I suppose you could say that the term Anti-Liberal is also a political aphorism of sorts. Politics, unfortunately, have entered Church life, and its presence in the life of the Church has always been detrimental....but not always affecting the Church's survival. In TEC's case, however, it has had deadly consequences, as we well know. We're involved in a civil war of sorts between two factions: One Revisionist, the other Traditionalist. "Traditionalist" can mean one who prefers the Old Ways of worship, or it can mean one who prefers the Church Before the Revisionists Seized Power. I believe myself to be in the latter faction. I am an Anglo Catholic who recognizes the validity of the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion and who doesn't think they're merely a "Historical Document of the Church." I'm not alone in my assessment. I prefer a return to the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, but with certain revisions reflecting local usage. I am a political Conservative, but I suppose you can refer to me as a rebel against the abuses of The Episcopal Church and their friends and allies. That's why I left with my bishop and my diocese. We won't be back. Cennydd

Buckwheat	Posted: 2008/6/30 14:24 Updated: 2008/6/30 14:24
Not too shy to talk Joined: 2007/10/4 From: Posts: 25	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... We'll have to wait and see if this is a replay of '77 or not. The Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion are rather vague and open to interpretation. They were designed that way, in order to accomodate diverse viewpoints.

bpcranmer	Posted: 2008/6/30 14:42 Updated: 2008/7/1 11:30
Just can't stay away Joined: 2006/4/14 From: PA Posts: 150	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... In what way are they vague? Can you give me examples of where they are "open to interpretation"?

john123	Posted: 2008/6/30 15:05 Updated: 2008/6/30 15:05
Home away from home Joined: 2006/7/12 From: Posts: 392	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... SixDays. Thank you. Your point is well taken. And yes, perhaps not tomorrow , but sometime in the future our offspring will be forced to go through the same turmoil that we presently face. The devil is always quick to work with lose ends.

Buckwheat	Posted: 2008/6/30 15:31 Updated: 2008/6/30 15:31
Not too shy to talk Joined: 2007/10/4 From: Posts: 25	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... I'll quote RichHooker since he says it best -- "Herein lies one of the problems with Anglicanism. While the Roman Catholic Church has a clear theology as is stated in its Catechism, we do not. The Thirty-Nine Articles are vague since it was designed to placate both Puritans and "Henrician" Catholics. Moreover, those articles do not reflect the position of Anglo-Catholics today, Tract 90 notwithstanding. While the BCP was the glue that held together the Anglican Communion, it is obviously not the case today. Moreover, I do not see an easy resolution to this problem since it would be difficult even for traditional Anglicans to arrive at consensus on all points of doctrine."

5string	Posted: 2008/6/30 15:35 Updated: 2008/6/30 15:35
Just popping in Joined: 2007/8/10 From: longview. wa Posts: 4	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... I see your point. In the good bit of time I have been quietly following this struggle from the security of the fortress I call my little office (safe from wife, telephone, doorbell, mailbox,neighbors' kids and guarded by my faithful GSD--grin) I have noted that "concservative" DOES NOT mean the same thing to every one on this band wagon. I define it as (in our instance) recognizing the Scripture as the final authority, inspired and without error in the original manuscripts and tradition, as can be substantiated by such, carries additional oomph. To call the 39 Articles "Historical Documents" is just trying to saw the legs off of the stool a little at a time--so they are binding. WO cannot be justified by either tradition nor Holy Writ, and of course it takes a pretty twisted, justification seeking mind to interpret Johathon and Davids affection for each other as any exhibition of Sodomy. However, as you have pointed out, there seems to be degrees of "conservative". This is going to be a real tricky question to negotiate. What will be the touchstones of this movement? Is there a minimum standard? How will those who support Biblical inspiration rub shoulders with those who merely like the service the old way? Wiser heads than mine will have to determine. But at least, as you say, the Sodomites got the boot. Spong won't have near as many to rail at him, Vicky's death threats will go down, and maybe Katherine can go back to flying, instead of flying off the handle. John the Jeweler

frjude	Posted: 2008/6/30 15:52 Updated: 2008/6/30 15:52
Home away from home Joined: 2005/1/9 From: Heartland Posts: 277	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... Quote: Moreover, those articles do not reflect the position of Anglo-Catholics today, Tract 90 notwithstanding. I do not believe in sola fide. I do not believe that the 'reserve sacrament' is sacrilege. I do believe that Sacred Scripture contains 73 books, not 66. I do believe in purgatory. I do believe in transubstantiation. I do believe in the 'sacrifice of the Mass.' I do believe that 'justification' is not a one-time experience. I could go on, but suffice to say, I do not agree with all the 'Articles' and yet I am an Anglican. What should I do? I'd like to ask Bp. Ackerman that question.

recchip	Posted: 2008/6/30 15:54 Updated: 2008/6/30 15:54
Home away from home Joined: 2006/2/23 From: Fairfax Virginia Posts: 170	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... BPCRANMER, You asked for an example of where the articles are open to interpretation. There are many but I will just stick with one which is fairly easy. This is from the last line of Article XXVIII (28) The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped. Many on the "protestant" side of the issue say that this means that Christ said NOT to reserve, carry about, lift up or worship the sacrament. On the "Catholic" side, it is often said that, yes Christ did not tell us to do those things, but neither did he say not to. In other words, the Church is not required, by Christ's ordinance of the Sacrament, to do "high church" stuff with the Lord's Supper, but that neither is it forbidden to do such. Similar discussions about "The Romish Doctine of Purgatory, images, saints etc" being repugnant may or may not mean that an "Anglican doctrine of Purgatory etc" is not OK. Note, I am not taking a side here but simply pointing out where people have differently interpreted the Articles.

daveball	Posted: 2008/6/30 17:43 Updated: 2008/6/30 17:43
Home away from home Joined: 2004/12/18 From: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 2281	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... It is interesting and enlightening to follow the evolution of comments on this and a couple related threads since yesterday's release of the Jerusalem Declaration. We started with elation, drifted to questioning, descended to skepticism and now seem to be emerging into "light of day" examination. Of course this document is not absolutely self explanatory. How could it be? I think if we regard it as the opening context of what will assuradly be an extended period of thought and examination, we may have it in its realistic position. As has been pointed out by many commentors both before and since the release of the document, there is no single definition of "conservative" or "orthodox". There was no "one mind" at GAFCON with regard to many issues. Paragraph 12 has been highlighted as possibly opening the door for many things including "revisionism" such as WO and the 1979 Book of Alternative Theologies. I guess, to paraphase a known bender of the truth, it depend on what you mean by "secondary". We'll just have to see. Paragraph 4 - We'll have to see how the Anglo-Catholic end of the spectrum and the others deal with this. There are certainly differences, some major. How will these be resolved Paragraph 6 - Sounds great but I really get concerned every time someone says they are just "updating" language in the BCP. It is hard to keep from interjecting interpretation. We'll have to see what this process will be. Paragraph 8 - If we accept and require that marriage be between a man and a woman, do we also require that we pay attention to the "until death do us part" part? Quite obviously, the reality will be in the implementation. This will not be easy because I don't think w yet know the starting point in this country. This will depend upon what the reaction is on the part of TEc, and you can be sure here will be one. Will we be distracted by litigation for years to come? I think you can count on that so how do we deal with that while building God's Church? It will be an interesting ride but I hope no one dismisses this initiative as "just more words" without letting the process get off the ground. Pray for Christ's church. Pray for us sinners.

DomWalk	Posted: 2008/6/30 19:06 Updated: 2008/6/30 19:08
Home away from home Joined: 2007/6/9 From: Left Coast, USA Posts: 619	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... "I do not believe in sola fide. I do not believe that the 'reserve sacrament' is sacrilege. I do believe that Sacred Scripture contains 73 books, not 66. I do believe in purgatory. I do believe in transubstantiation. I do believe in the 'sacrifice of the Mass.' I do believe that 'justification' is not a one-time experience. I could go on, but suffice to say, I do not agree with all the 'Articles' and yet I am an Anglican. What should I do? " The short answer is, that you are not an Anglican. If one denies the core doctrines of a faith or church, one is not of that faith or church. You should consider swimming the Tiber. Newman had the courage of his convictions. + + +

frjude	Posted: 2008/6/30 19:16 Updated: 2008/6/30 19:16
Home away from home Joined: 2005/1/9 From: Heartland Posts: 277	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... I wonder what Bps Ackerman and Iker and McBurney would say??? I would suspect that they would say they agreed with me.

CTMom	Posted: 2008/6/30 19:26 Updated: 2008/6/30 20:29
Just can't stay away Joined: 2004/7/16 From: CANA in CT Posts: 139	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... Recchip, Some of the Articles may be open to interpretation, but the ones that REALLY matter for this discussion are very clear. It is also abundantly clear that TEC's PB doesn't give a hoot about either one: VI. Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation... VII. Of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is not contrary to the New: for both in the Old and New Testament everlasting life is offered to Mankind by Christ, who is the only Mediator between God and Man, being both God and Man. Wherefore they are not to be heard, which feign that the old Fathers did look only for transitory promises. Although the Law given from God by Moses, as touching Ceremonies and Rites, do not bind Christian men, nor the Civil precepts thereof ought of necessity to be received in any commonwealth; yet notwithstanding, no Christian man whatsoever is free from the obedience of the Commandments which are called Moral. XVIII. They also are to be had accursed that presume to say, That every man shall be saved by the Law or Sect which he professeth, so that he be diligent to frame his life according to that Law, and the light of Nature. For Holy Scripture doth set out unto us only the Name of Jesus Christ, whereby men must be saved.

recchip	Posted: 2008/6/30 21:37 Updated: 2008/6/30 21:37
Home away from home Joined: 2006/2/23 From: Fairfax Virginia Posts: 170	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... CTMOM, I totally agree with you. There are certain "core articles" which are VERY NON-NEGOTIABLE (such as the ones you mentioned.) I particularly like your quoting of VII since somebody just today(in this discussion either here or TitusOneNIne) said that the Old Testament is not as much of Scripture as the New and that the Epistles are not as "important" as the Gospels when determining doctrine. We must always use Scripture as our final guide to test our doctrine. (Note, that is Scripture interpreted according to the way that the CHURCh since the first century as interpreted it, not the way the new "thinkers" of ECUSA interpret it.)

SaintElvis	Posted: 2008/6/30 21:40 Updated: 2008/6/30 21:40
Just can't stay away Joined: 2008/5/4 From: Posts: 125	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... No question the important ones are indeed clear. But why would I want to hold an article as a matter of doctrine that states Purgatory is a Romish booboo when they no longer require it's belief? Ditto the Pope interfering in civil matters of Merry Old England? Or those aimed at Puritans? That is silly. I will not. It is an exercise in ridiculousness. Surely a Synod of traditional minded Anglicans could get together and do some editing.

frjude	Posted: 2008/6/30 22:38 Updated: 2008/6/30 22:38
Home away from home Joined: 2005/1/9 From: Heartland Posts: 277	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... Purgatory may be a 'boo boo' if righteousness is 'imputed' to the believer. If it is 'infused' as I, and many other Christians believe, then it may not be such a 'boo boo' after all. There was also, was there not, an 'elephant in the room' at GAFCON, namely 'women's ordination'? How can a church be 'unified' when one allows this, and another does not?

frjude	Posted: 2008/6/30 22:42 Updated: 2008/7/1 17:23
Home away from home Joined: 2005/1/9 From: Heartland Posts: 277	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... [q Ah yes, but 'Sola Scriptura' IS the problem here. Who gets to interpret? Who does the 'testing'? Isn't this THE reason for 100's of Protestant denominations? AS I mentioned above, I reject 'sola fide'. THIS doctrine is nowhere found in the Bible, nor is it found in the teachings of the early church. Yet many Anglicans on this subject claim 'sola fide' to be the bedrock of the Christian faith. While I rejoice over GAFCON, I can see that there are many, many problems to be addressed and overcome before TRUE unity can occur.

Cennydd	Posted: 2008/6/30 22:56 Updated: 2008/6/30 22:56
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... Frjude, who's to say that WO is always going to be with us? If the Ordinal IS held as the standard by which clergy are ordained, it will pass. Maybe not soon enough for some like me, but it will pass just the same. Cennydd

recchip	Posted: 2008/6/30 23:42 Updated: 2008/6/30 23:44
Home away from home Joined: 2006/2/23 From: Fairfax Virginia Posts: 170	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... FrJude, Just where in that statement did you get that I was proposing Sola Scriptura. I stated, (right after what you quoted, the following: (Note, that is Scripture interpreted according to the way that the CHURCh since the first century as interpreted it, not the way the new "thinkers" of ECUSA interpret it.) I mean that the Scripture must be interpreted according to the interpretation of the church since the first century. i.e. Scripture must be interpreted according to Tradition. (not the tradtitions of the last few centuries but of the CHURCH CATHOLIC starting with the early Church Fathers, going to Augustine of Hippo etc.) Salvation comes through the "means of grace" i.e. the Word AND SACRAMENTS. Faith in Christ is required but how that faith comes about is what the disagreement is. When we recite the Creeds (Nicaen and Apostles) we state that we believe in "one baptism for the remission of sins". So, I guess we believe in the efficacy of the sacraments. RECCHIP

MichaelA	Posted: 2008/7/1 10:37 Updated: 2008/7/1 10:38
Home away from home Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... Amen Cennydd. Some of you appear to be more intent on emphasising what you don't believe, rather than what you do. I also have bad news for many people - Gafcon means WORK! The Gafcon declaration is fairly simple, and yet true to the Anglican tradition; but that is less than 10% of the battle. The real battle occurs at the level of individual congregations and missions. What are you doing to build up your church? To witness in your community? To make disciples of all men? What steps are you taking to bind up the broken-hearted, to save the lost? The Church was never meant to sit back, basking in its glory, but to actively be a light shining in the darkness. Leaders like Akinola, Venables or Schofield can give leadership, but then WE have to get on with our bit.

SaintElvis	Posted: 2008/7/1 11:57 Updated: 2008/7/1 15:11
Just can't stay away Joined: 2008/5/4 From: Posts: 125	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... There will be no 'one' Anglican Church in the USA if WO is not abandoned. As to purgatory, you are free to believe as you wish but it was Jesus who turned to the thief and said 'today you will be with me in paradise'. That is as instructive as we have about the afterlife until we get to Revelations and see the manner of worship of God (Anglo Catholic ) as practiced by those in heaven- as the vision of St John describes it. Beyond that it is speculation. I have no objection to pious speculation and I would not question your 'anglicanism' over such belief, but I think that the Romish mistake was demanding it as well as other innovations at the level of Dogma. An excellent treatment of Roman error can be read online in Charles Grafton's works (the great Anglo Catholic bishop). But again not all of these things are relative to today's RCC and so for those who get worked up over such things it borders on sin. While there may be some Roman bloggers who willfully employ the same tactic towards Anglicans those at the top hold no joy in what is happening to the faithful in the Anglican Communion. Be glad of those who pray for you where ever they may be. Just because you believe something don't mean it's true. If the Romans no longer believe it why should you? And, if the Romans no longer believe in purgatory (and I am sure some do but it is not dogma any longer), then in fact such things in the Articles demonstrates how 'dated' they are in some respects. Even the RCC's view on Justification has changed since that time.

Ikerliker	Posted: 2008/7/1 22:36 Updated: 2008/7/1 22:38
Home away from home Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2046	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... I think speculation at this juncture is premature. The ink is hardly dry. We will find out soon enough what will permissible. However, if we are upholding the classic Anglican Ordinal for clergy, that would not include women. Also if we are upholding the 1662 Prayer Book as the model, we are also eliminating WO and many other innovations that have "crept in". I am content to see what develops. If I don't like it, there are other options. So far, I am pleased with what has taken place and feel if Bishop Iker is happy, that is a good sign. One can't be much more Anglo-Catholic. He will not be a part of any organization that ordains women and neither will Bishop Ackerman. Rowan Williams should start looking for a new gig.

MichaelA	Posted: 2008/7/2 0:46 Updated: 2008/7/2 0:46
Home away from home Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... Fr Jude, I would also point out that "sola scriptura" does not mean that the Church has no other authority than the Bible, it simply means that scripture is alone at the top of the pyramid. I think the Latin phrase was formulated by Martin Luther - hardly a rabid protestant! His doctrine on this point was no more than a restatement of that of Wyclif. None of these men wished to see a split in the Church. Rather they restated a principle seen throughout the history of the church, that the mightiest prelate can be called to account by the Living Word. Consider e.g. the witness of +Robert Grosseteste in 1253 reminding the Pope that he can only command obedience in so far as his commands are consistent with those of Christ and his Apostles. Or St Athanasius in the 4th Century, exiled from his See on at least two occasions, yet refusing to abandon biblical truth simply because a majority of the church in his area succumbed to Arian heresy. This is not a matter of "private interpretation". As we have seen in the current controversy, there is rarely any real dispute as to what the Scriptures say. The problem is rather that sometimes mighty prelates like the Archbishop of Canterbury himself depart from the Word, and then the Church is entitled to call them to account, regardless of their position. So too with "tradition" - there is a huge variety of opinions and doctrines found in christian writers from the first few centuries. We recognise those who are the true Fathers of the Church by the extent to which their teaching was faithful to the teachings of Christ, his Apostles and Prophets, not the other way around.

MichaelA	Posted: 2008/7/2 2:44 Updated: 2008/7/2 2:44
Home away from home Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... "Archbishop Justice Akrofi (West Africa) also signed it." I am glad to hear that. ++Akrofi has been rather quiet in terms of public statements over the past few years compared to his fellow GS Primates, yet West Africa is as much a bastion of orthodoxy as Nigeria or Uganda. So it is good to see that there is no issue with their support for Gafcon.

bpcranmer	Posted: 2008/7/2 15:58 Updated: 2008/7/6 21:20
Just can't stay away Joined: 2006/4/14 From: PA Posts: 150	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... OK, that's a good example, and one that doesn't concern me at all. I was concerned that there would be an assertion of unintelligibility of some essential matter, based on the specious argument often lofted that "we can never really understand the Articles because we don't speak the English of that day, don't have the same training, aren't living in the same cultural / historical milieu, so actually the Articles could really mean anything at all." The kind of matters you raise are worthy of discussion, clarification, perhaps even change for our day. But at least there is no denial of the essential intelligibility of the Articles.

SaintElvis	Posted: 2008/7/2 20:17 Updated: 2008/7/2 20:17
Just can't stay away Joined: 2008/5/4 From: Posts: 125	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... That is a good example. On one hand one can ask what is the ultimate disposition of the elements in reservation? On the other hand after the Institution of Communion by our Lord he was 'reserved' and carried about, then lifted up on a cross and worshipped! Sort of makes you think...

sabigail	Posted: 2008/7/3 0:42 Updated: 2008/7/3 0:42
Just popping in Joined: 2008/6/30 From: Posts: 2	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... Sorry, but they'll back down. The orthodox have talked about doing something for years, they have pretended to do something, but when push comes to shove they cave in. Wish it was different. Wish it was an historic moment. Wish Rowan was moved out of his smiling, dialogging lethargy. But wishes don't change reality.

MichaelA	Posted: 2008/7/3 5:37 Updated: 2008/7/6 21:20
Home away from home Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... " On that logic one should also bury the bread and wait for it to rise after three days, and sundry other bizarre things. One can take "logic" to amazing lengths. Jesus and his apostles gave us very few commands about the Lord’s supper. With regard to the bread, Jesus told us “this is my body”, but the only active command he gave us was “do this (i.e. eat it) in remembrance of me”. He also told us that “this cup is the new covenant in my blood”, but again, the only active command he gave us was “do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me”. Nothing about reserving it, lifting it up, carrying it about, and definitely nothing about worshipping it (which no Jew would ever have done). All those ideas appear hundreds of years later, culminating in perhaps the greatest foolishness: the medieval Thomist claims that the bread is now no longer bread in any sense but the accidents. Our Lord left us lots of scope as to how we run our worship services, so if you want to do some particular things in your ceremonies, go right ahead. But don't expect all Anglicans to follow suit.

MichaelA	Posted: 2008/7/3 5:53 Updated: 2008/7/6 21:21
Home away from home Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869	Re: JERUSALEM: Historic Moment As Orthodox Anglicans Rati... I would say that it is the other way around: whilst many Roman Catholics privately do not believe in purgatory, it remains a dogma of the Roman catholic church. A “dogma” is an essential doctrine laid down in the fourteen alleged “general councils” or in an ex-cathedra papal pronouncement. Roman Catholic dogmas are not optional, and they are immutable, i.e. they cannot be repealed or changed by anyone. The Council of Trent is one such general council. In Session XXV it laid down purgatory as a dogma: “Since the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, following the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecumenical council that there is a purgatory, and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils, be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ, and be everywhere taught and preached….” The current Roman catholic catechisms confirm this. All that happened in 1989 is that Pope John Paul said that purgatory was not to be thought of as a physical place, a la the mountain in Dante’s "Inferno". What Saint Elvis may be thinking of, is that many Roman catholics do not agree with the concept of purgatory in any sense. That is true - there is a wide variety of belief among Roman catholics. But Roman catholic dogma remains unchanged - belief in purgatory is essential.