Exclusives : JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent Structures in Place
JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent Structures in Place
By David W. Virtue in Jerusalem
www.virtueonline.org
6/26/2008
Leaders of the Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCON), in a preliminary statement, say that while there will be no formal split from the Anglican Communion, permanent structures are being put into place to be true to the Bible, to continue the work of mission and to do so as Anglicans.
Kenya Archbishop Benjamin Nzimbi said that the Archbishop of Canterbury and the four Instruments of Unity had "betrayed and abandoned" the Anglican Communion and therefore new structures are necessary.
"GAFCON is a movement, not a moment in time. We need an agreed upon theological framework and appropriate structures to sustain its growth into the future. Permanent structures will be put in place to sustain its growth."
The leaders recognize the need for a new North American province "for faithful Anglicans who live in provinces that have abandoned the traditional teaching of the Bible."
The statement concluded by saying that GAFCON leaders will reach out to other Anglicans around the Communion "who share our common faith".
Asked by VOL if the Queen of England, as the supreme Governor of the Church of England, had been approached about worsening conditions in the Anglican Communion and the possibility of a new structure being formed, Archbishop Nzimbi replied that GAFCON leaders are not fighting the Queen.
"We respect the Queen, but the present structures have departed from the traditions of the Church of England and so when those structures have betrayed us, we need to say we must wait on it. We need to go back to what we have received."
Asked about possible names for this future entity, Nzimbi simply said GAFCON. Another source said Global Anglican Conference.
Questioned about homosexuality, panel member Dr. John Akao, a bishop from Nigeria, said both the Old Testament and New Testament forbade it. "We cannot practice that which is not allowed. It is repugnant to the Scriptures." He also said, in answer to a question about who was financing whom, that provinces would be self-supporting.
Nzimbi said every pilgrim has had multiple opportunities to provide concerns, hopes, and suggestions to the statement committee throughout the week.
The first draft of the statement will be read to all pilgrims on Friday, June 27. The statement will be finalized before GAFCON ends on June 29.
GAFCON leaders say they will meet again in two years to reflect and expand on the structures.
END
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| Poster | Thread |
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| patulous | Posted: 2008/6/26 14:56 Updated: 2008/6/26 14:56 |
Home away from home   Joined: 2007/5/18 From: Posts: 1746 |
 Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ...Sounds like those at GAFCON are doing well. Tomorrow will tell.
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| DomWalk | Posted: 2008/6/26 15:00 Updated: 2008/6/26 15:00 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/6/9 From: Left Coast, USA Posts: 619 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... And for now, those structures are all that really matters. The breaching of the walls of geographical ecclesiastical tyrany has taken place. Now, the ground needs to be defended.
The "intercontinental ballistic weapons of schism" have struck! + + + |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2008/6/26 15:13 Updated: 2008/6/26 15:14 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... While this is certainly good, I foresee the time when there will be a formal schism. The continued intransigence on both sides dictates it.
Cennydd |
| warmac9999 | Posted: 2008/6/26 16:51 Updated: 2008/6/26 16:51 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2004/2/16 From: Posts: 1447 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... As I have said many times here, the split is being driven from the bottom up. As such, it is difficult to predict when the leadership of the orthodox and the revisionists will formalize what by then will be so obvious as to be defacto. Recognize that the momentum for split has been growing and nothing thrown around by the revisionists has done anything to stop it. From listening to dialoging to threatening to suing to locking out the faithful, nothing has worked and nothing will work.
The decline of TEC is admittedly at the rate of upwards of 1000 per week. No one can trust the TEC numbers and so no one really knows how fast things are moving. |
| Traktaryan | Posted: 2008/6/26 17:36 Updated: 2008/6/26 17:38 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/7/16 From: Posts: 706 |
Confusion I hate to rain on the parade, however, a few questions come to mind.
Given that there will be "no formal split from the Anglican Communion" then what will the difference be from what we have now? Will these new "permanent structures" be in communion with Canterbury? Yes. Will The Episcopal Church be in communion with Canterbury? Yes. So, are the new permanent structures going to be in communion with The Episcopal Church? How could they not be if both are in communion with Canterbury? And what is to become of the issue of womens' ordination? What happens when a future Archbishop of Canterbury is a woman bishop? It's only a matter of time. Furthermore, the progressives of TEC are on record stating they have the will and the means to export what they've done in the U.S. all across the rest of the Anglican Communion. In these new permanent structures, how will the innovations be avoided? What means will be in place to protect these new permanent structures from simply voting in changes? What if some bishop in the new permanent structures decides to do something that goes against the rest? How the new province handle him (or her)? The problem seems to me to be that wherever the orthodox go, whatever new structure they come up with, they carry the seeds of their own destruction with them. There is no way of protecting the gem we call Anglicanism. It has happened right before our eyes. If you can get enough people on your side, you can simply vote into existence anything you want. You can recreate the church to be whatever you want it to be in Anglicanism. Until that changes, nothing in Anglicanism is ever going to be permanent. |
| Ikerliker | Posted: 2008/6/26 17:58 Updated: 2008/6/26 17:58 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2046 |
Re: Confusion I agree and will contribute more rain. There needs to be a disassociation from the Canterbury Communion or nothing has really changed. We are still "stuck" with a bunch of heretical lunatics who feel anything is permissible if it is part of someone's "life experience" or some garbage along those lines.
Personally I am about fed up. |
| SixDays | Posted: 2008/6/26 18:08 Updated: 2008/6/26 18:08 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/2/23 From: G.K.K. Posts: 304 |
Re: Confusion Let the rain pour!!!!!!!!!
This is not rocket science. If you belong to an organization and I belong to the same organization what difference does it make what we call ourselves? We should not be in communion with any organization that is in communion with TEC. Period. So, What has GAFCON accomplished? Not much, unfortunately. SD |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2008/6/26 18:12 Updated: 2008/6/26 18:59 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684 |
Re: Confusion Traktaryan, that possible future "female Archbishop of Canterbury" won't be from any "Church" outside of Britain. He or she must be a British subject appointed by Parliament.
That leaves Schori out, thank God! But then, it really won't matter, will it, because by then, she'll be the "Archbishopess of the Episcopal Communion," won't she? Cennydd |
| john123 | Posted: 2008/6/26 18:24 Updated: 2008/6/27 13:02 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/7/12 From: Posts: 392 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... Nothing has changed. There was an opportunity to sweep the apostates out of the orthodox tent. That opportunity is now lost.
One cannot rely on those presently pressing the orthodox case. The orthodox are led by nothing more than a bunch of little Williamses It is now left to the orthodox to walk. |
| FrankV | Posted: 2008/6/26 19:20 Updated: 2008/6/26 19:22 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/1/5 From: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 291 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... I was hoping for a much bolder grappling with the problems than I am seeing so far. Very frankly, yes, a schism that would set up a new communion of reformed catholic worship in the framework that is being expounded but not implemented. What is so holy about the Church of England when it isn't Holy? Does Elizabeth II have any of the DNA of Elizabeth I? Apparently not. Where is Cranmer when we need him?
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| otispage2 | Posted: 2008/6/26 19:40 Updated: 2008/6/26 19:40 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 602 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... This is a major victory for ABC. The "orthodox" have subordinated their interests to the homosexual controlled Communion. The shadow of evil has now stifled the once rightful complaint leading to GAFCON. Why has this happened? The answer is the weight of TEC's finacial influence. God save the Queen! The homosexuals have won!
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| john123 | Posted: 2008/6/26 19:45 Updated: 2008/6/27 13:03 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/7/12 From: Posts: 392 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... FrankV.
I share your concern.. There is nothing left in the Church of England at all. It is just a hollow shell of its former self Our problem today lies with the fact that those so called orthodox people in Jerusalem lack the self confidence to do the right thing, do what has to be done. Its unfortunate, but they lack the intestinal fortitude to cut the umbilical cord. As Otispage2 notes, "The homosexuals have won!" |
| patulous | Posted: 2008/6/26 20:04 Updated: 2008/6/26 20:04 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/5/18 From: Posts: 1746 |
Re: Confusion Lets wait for the draft on June 27, 2008 and see what we will see. Until then I say we're just summarizing.
God Bless GAFCON. |
| Fidelis | Posted: 2008/6/26 20:59 Updated: 2008/6/26 20:59 |
Just can't stay away  Joined: 2008/2/25 From: Sydney Posts: 72 |
Re: Confusion As wiser men than I have repeatedly said: it is the OTHERS who have wandered off, NOT us.
Therefore, brothers and sisters, do not expect any 'schism'. This only occurs if one party forms ANOTHER church. It won't happen at GAFCON and it won't happen at Lambeth. This was never going to happen. Our duty is to simply STAND FAST for the faith as received through the Word and the Apostles. |
| MichaelA | Posted: 2008/6/26 22:17 Updated: 2008/6/26 22:22 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
Re: Confusion Traktaryan, Ikerliker, SixDays, John 123,
Your comments come across as rather naive. You seem to think that there is some 'silver bullet' whereby you can form a new structure that is immune to the attempts of the apostates. Such a church has never existed, and never will. Even in New Testament times, there was a constant struggle by the faithful against error and apostasy, and so it will continue until the last day. Gafcon will not take away all your problems, or your need to work. Gafcon *will* bring you godly and wise leadership, with a commitment to an apostolic church founded on the scriptures as they have been historically understood by the christian church. But that still leaves an awful lot of work that you have to do yourselves, in your own dioceses and congregations. As for Gafcon disassociating itself from Canterbury, at what point does this stop? For example, the Pope has sent messages of support to ABC, and he will also send a Nuncio to Lambeth - should Gafcon have therefore refused to receive the Papal Nuncio that attended Gafcon? That is the logical result of your argument that Canterbury must be anathematised because it still has relations with TEC (in case it is not clear, let me say that I think Gafcon were quite correct to receive the Nuncio and have dialogue with him - and I am no supporter of Rome!) Furthermore, to openly break ties with Canterbury would make things very difficult for faithful congregations in TEC, ACoC and CofE. At present, those congregations have been accorded a strong measure of legitimacy. I would have thought that Gafcon couldn't have made it more plain that they do not have fellowship with the apostate churches. Regards Michael |
| Traktaryan | Posted: 2008/6/26 22:49 Updated: 2008/6/26 22:49 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/16 From: Posts: 706 |
Re: Confusion MichaelA,
One of the key points of my post is this: it seems that whatever emerges from GAFCON, it is difficult to see how it will differ much from the current state of affairs in the Anglican Communion. You can create all the new provinces you want, but if every one of them is in communion with Canterbury, then what is the difference? You'll have TEC in the U.S., plus some new North American Province, both provinces of the Anglican Communion and both in communion with Canterbury. So? Secondly, the issue of womens' ordination is problematic now and, to repeat, in whatever kind of structure it is that emergers from GAFCON, the women's ordination issue will still be problematic. There has been no way to deal with apostates. Recall the Bishop Pike affair, the Bishop Wrighter trial, the election and consecration of Gene Robinson. Apparently there was nothing to stop any of these things from happening. Unless they come up with some way of stopping or preventing heretical innovations from being voted into law, the new GAFCON-thing will be just like TEC and the AC as they are now. The whole point is: what has GAFCON accomplished and/or what could it possibly accomplish? |
| SixDays | Posted: 2008/6/26 23:15 Updated: 2008/6/27 0:50 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/2/23 From: G.K.K. Posts: 304 |
Re: Confusion MichaelA;
Traktaryan has done a superb job in replying to you. Anything I would add would be redundant. SD |
| FrankV | Posted: 2008/6/27 1:31 Updated: 2008/6/27 1:31 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/1/5 From: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 291 |
Re: Confusion MichaelA: I guess that following your arguments we should just roll over and give it up. As I read scripture, there are a number of good arguments for disassociating oneself from unbelievers and apostates. Try 1 Cor 15:33 and 1 Tim 5:22 and then with particule emphasis on 2 Cor 6:14-17 which ends with, "therefore come out from them (unbelievers) and be separate, saith the Lord." It should not be impossible to set up a governance that would ensure doctrinal discipline, and it doesn't need to be a single person like the ABC or a Pope. We need a bold step at this juncture.
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| Sodslaw | Posted: 2008/6/27 4:07 Updated: 2008/6/27 4:07 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/8/3 From: Orthodox Bunker Posts: 330 |
Out! It's Wimbledon fortnight folks....
To play tennis you need these.....? I wonder if they will lend some to our bishops? Same game, same match, and for now "Advantage TEC". Williams will not move to give TEC the Windsor backhand, and so those who remain in the "Communion" are locked in a game they can't win! +Duncan says "Soon", but we have been hearing soon for years. When +++Williams says soon, or even recognises the problem, then I'll buy it! |
| Fisherman | Posted: 2008/6/27 12:05 Updated: 2008/6/27 12:05 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/8/25 From: Dallas - Province of the Southern Cone, DoFW Posts: 675 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... Sunday morning we will awake to many answers. Sunday evening we will retire with many questions.
Let us pray that a clear path is established. But the path must have guidelines and mechanisms to keep us on it and to limit those who walk upon it. And structure, like a ship, must have someone at the helm. |
| Conan | Posted: 2008/6/27 12:18 Updated: 2008/6/27 12:18 |
Just popping in  Joined: 2007/11/16 From: Posts: 12 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... I agree, in spirit, with the frustrations listed on this site. However, I strongly disagree with the tone of blaming the leadership. God is calling you, right now, to action. How many of you are asking others to come to church with you? Sharing the Gospel with friends, family or complete strangers? Working to help your priest (as he needs you as much as you need him)? Quit complaining about that which you cannot change and work hard to change what you can. We are all laborers in the vineyard. Knock off the chatter and get to work! The victory is already won.
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| ctowles | Posted: 2008/6/27 14:07 Updated: 2008/6/27 14:07 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/12/4 From: Posts: 477 |
Re: Confusion "it seems that whatever emerges from GAFCON, it is difficult to see how it will differ much from the current state of affairs in the Anglican Communion"
Difference #1. The sacrement of marriage will be for one man and one woman instead of any other combination of God's creatures. Difference #2 The belief in the Divinity of Christ. Difference # 3 Acceptence of the faith delivered Difference # 4 Belief that the only way to salvation is through Christ Difference #5 Words have meanings and those meanings shall be followed in the application of the Canons in spirit and deed I could go on but if you don't get the idea more examples won't help. Now, "You can create all the new provinces you want, but if every one of them is in communion with Canterbury, then what is the difference?" The problem you are having is your multiple use of the term communion and all its various meanings. You have created a linguistic trap of: which meaning of Communion am I using now? Bishops and Churches can be in Communion with eachother and not in communion with eachother depending on the meaning of Communion you are using (re. Schori). Bishop Akinola can be in communication, a form of communion, with Bishop Williams about not being in communion meaning I'm not comming to Lambeth and sharing a sacrament with an apostate. To Williams, communion is who's sleeping with who and is it gratifying enough to qualify as a religious experience that the church may bless. You have to watch with whom you are having communion and what type of communion you are having. The catholic term mass is useful. |
| john123 | Posted: 2008/6/27 14:11 Updated: 2008/6/27 22:07 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/7/12 From: Posts: 392 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... Conan.
You state "Quit complaining about that which you cannot change and work hard to change what you can". I would say "recognize what you cannot change and move on". In this case, walk away from those who won't walk away. Does not the Bible speak to this? Believe me, I for one have done just this. I have found a Priest of the Missouri Synod and a congregation that are uncompromisingly orthodox in all aspects. Its great to be with people who are Christ centered. Its great to be clear of the TEC cult and all the tensions and hates associated with that crowd. Walk away Conan and ask "others to come to church with you? Yes,share the Gospel with friends, family or complete strangers? Work to help your priest as he needs you as much as you need him. And in the men's Bible study group you may find others who will ask you, "why did it take you so long to wake up"?. Amen |
| AMIABill | Posted: 2008/6/27 22:49 Updated: 2008/6/27 22:49 |
Quite a regular  Joined: 2007/10/9 From: Posts: 58 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... The opera isn't over till the fat bishop sings (just kidding!). Let's not jumb to conclusions, please. First of all, it would have been premature for GAFCON to form a new province now because many of the bishops in attendance are going to Lambeth. Lambeth must take place before any final break can occur. Secondly, these sructures are probably going to be the structural FOUNDATION of the new communion when it is formed. What the orthodox bishops may due is claim that their GAFCON birthed structures are THE legitimate structures of the Angilcan communion, the old ones being rejected and rendered useless. In other words, it could be like that era when two medeival popes claimed to be THE pope - without declaring a formal split in the Roman Church. The leaders of each camp could battle it out as to which structure is the legitimate Anglican authority over the same communion! Of course, such a situation would evolve into two seperate communions over time. However, by not simply declaring a seperate communion it would strenthen the orthodox claim that they are the true Anglican communion and that the heterodox western chuches are the true schimatics.
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| Baring-G | Posted: 2008/6/28 0:01 Updated: 2008/6/28 0:01 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2007/8/8 From: Republic of Florida Posts: 135 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... John 123, Missouri Synod Lutheran pastors are not in Apostolic Succession, are not ordained by true bishops in that succession and are not priests. They are Protestant minsisters, although many of them are doctinally sound in their own tradition and are fine folks. I would suggest that those fleeing TEC join the nearest Anglican Catholic Church or another sound Continuing Anglican jurisdiction.If there isn't one nearby, then start one. Many of our Continuing Anglican parishes and missions have been created that way.
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| Traktaryan | Posted: 2008/6/28 1:27 Updated: 2008/6/28 1:27 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/16 From: Posts: 706 |
Re: Confusion ctowles,
You do a fine job of listing differences 1, 2, . . . 5 and more. The question remains: what or who is going to see to it that those differences stay put? All the things you mention we all once thought were fixtures in the Episcopal Church and Anglicanism. But now they're gone. What's to keep them from going away again? The presenting issue this time around was homosexuality. Next time, it will just be something else. A precedent has been set: you can vote on anything possibly imaginable and if the majority votes in favor of it, there's your new church. Centuries of male-only clergy? Wiped off the radar screen by a simple majority vote. Marriage according to Scripture, Tradition and Reason, namely one man and one woman for life? Gone by the board, voted off again. You've got to get rid of the idea that the church is a democracy. Where in the Gospels is there even one instance of Christ gathering His disciples together and saying, "Hey, I've got an idea. Let's vote to see if we should do it or not!" We hear over and over again that the Anglican Communion has no Magisterium, no authority figure comparabale to the pope to lay down the law. Well, until the Anglican Communion gets something like a Magisterium and/or vests the right kind or amount of authority in someone or something, then it is left vulnerable to the whims of the shifting attitudes and pleasures of the voting majority just like what has happened already. We might as well take down the cross from the steeple and put up a weather vane. Which ever way the wind blows . . . |
| frmarkcj | Posted: 2008/6/28 4:12 Updated: 2008/6/29 1:22 |
Just can't stay away  Joined: 2004/1/5 From: Kennesaw, GA Posts: 123 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... I will refrain from my final thoughts on this matter until the official release comes out. However, I must say that I have grown weary of all of the conferences, common causes, bishops meetings, and the like which have all offered a promise of a better day. What this tells me so far is that the coherency of the Anglican Communion and being Anglican, is more important that doing what the Scripture says and being Christian. Most of us have learned not to put our trust in princes, however, I believe that the orthodox faithful in the pews have been let down once again.
What good are new structures if they have no teeth? What good are they if dicsipline cannot be exercised against erring members? We all know what the outcome of Lambeth will be...business as usual. I cannot believe that the Apostles from whom we draw the sacred cow of apostolic succession, nor the Church Fathers would put up with TEC and the ABC like this. At some point there must be a separation where truth walks away from falsehood. If that means not being considered Anglican any longer than so be it. So what? Is it not more important to be faithful to the cause of Christ and the Church catholic than to an institution of human making? FOLLOW-UP.... I just read the GAFCON release on Stand Firm in the Faith. I think is wonderful that there was a sweet time of fellowship, worship, and visiting historic sites. And the Jersulam statement is worded very well. But, once again, nothing concrete about separating from apostasy and heresy and actually doing something about it. More waiting and watching Anglican Christianity lose face in the world. Again, it was patently obvious that it is more important to keep the institution together. |
| Getmeowt | Posted: 2008/6/28 18:09 Updated: 2008/6/28 18:09 |
Just can't stay away  Joined: 2008/1/23 From: Posts: 126 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... Agreed that there must be a separation--to do less will mean another 40 years of wandering in the desert.
Tossing around some ideas and possibilities, I came up with: Global Reformed Anglican Conference or Communion and its equivalent to the ABC (if there should be one) either be ++Venables or ++Akinola. To maintain its global emphasis, perhaps bishops or archbishops from all points of the compass be represented in a form of leadership: for example Kolini and Nzimbi from Africa, from the UK/Europe--Nazir-Ali, from North America--Schofield, from the Southern Hemisphere--Jensen. Just thoughts (wishes???). Something has got to change, that's for sure. My screen name sums up how I feel. I want some place to call home--Get...Me...Out |
| Keble | Posted: 2008/6/30 2:30 Updated: 2008/6/30 2:31 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/11/13 From: Posts: 206 |
Re: JERUSALEM: No Split from Communion but New Permanent ... Ho Hum. Nothing new here. Tutu is right - he says Anglicans love meetings.
Keble |
