Is it over for the Imam of Canterbury?
News Analysis
By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
2/8/2008
Rumors have been circulating for some time that the Archbishop of Canterbury might resign following the Lambeth Conference.
Sources in the UK have told VirtueOnline that mounting pressure from nearly all quarters in the church make his job untenable since he has single-handedly offended almost every group in Anglican Christendom.
But will he? In his latest missive, the Imam of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams, called for Islamic law to be recognized in Britain. He declared that Sharia and Parliamentary law should be given equal legal status so the people could choose which governs their lives.
This raised the prospect of Islamic courts in Britain with full legal powers to approve polygamous marriages, grant easy divorce for men and prevent finance firms from charging interest.
His comments sparked a furor of responses, mostly negative from media, religious and secular pundits and some Islamic leaders, with one Church of England bishop calling on him to resign.
The Prime Minister, early on, distanced himself from Dr. Williams's remarks. Gordon Brown's spokesman said, "Our general position is that Sharia law cannot be used as a justification for committing breaches of English law, nor should the principles of Sharia law be included in a civil court for resolving contractual disputes.
"The Prime Minister believes British law should apply in this country, based on British values."
Dr. Williams's words opened a chasm over Islam between Church of England senior leaders, who are already trying to deal with an Anglican war over gay rights which broke out after Williams was appointed archbishop.
Within hours of the BBC interview being posted to their website, hundreds of commentators had written in to the site protesting, some calling for Williams' to resign.
The Bishop of Rochester, Pakistani-born Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, said this, "English law is rooted in the Judaeo-Christian tradition and, in particular, our notions of human freedoms derive from that tradition. In my view, it would be simply impossible to introduce a tradition, like Sharia into this corpus without fundamentally affecting its integrity."
Nazir-Ali is under police protection after receiving death threats for writing in January that Islamic extremism had turned some British communities into "'no-go' areas" and that there are ongoing attempts to "impose an Islamic character on certain areas."
Damien Thompson, editor of the Catholic Herald newspaper and a blogger at the Daily Telegraph, wrote that the Archbishop's comments were the "most monumentally stupid thing I have ever heard an Archbishop of Canterbury say. In fact, it's more than stupid, it's disgusting.
"The idea that 'one law for everyone' is 'a bit of a danger', as Williams argues, goes against every tradition of English law and culture that the Primate of All England is supposed to uphold." Thompson wrote that if he had been quoted accurately, the Archbishop of Canterbury "is lending his support to the establishment of a non-Christian theocracy in Britain."
"Has the Archbishop gone bonkers?" asked Ruth Gledhill, the religion correspondent for the Times. Gledhill said that "commentators of every variety," have been "stunned into blunt expression by the Archbishop of Canterbury's uncharacteristically clear comments on Sharia in Britain." Williams, she wrote, "wants women, children, all of us in fact, to have to kow-tow to some of the strictest, harshest and most draconian laws dreamed up by any religious system, ever, anywhere in the world."
"There might not be no-go areas for non-Muslims in Britain...But this is certainly the way to go about creating them." Thompson pointed out that Williams' credibility "is in tatters" in his struggle with the Anglican leadership in Africa over acceptance of active homosexual ministers that has threatened to destroy the Communion. "Anglicans in parts of Nigeria live under what is, in effect, totalitarian Sharia.
"What will the Archbishop of Canterbury's fatuous remarks about Sharia do to his authority as head of the Anglican Communion? Pretty well finish it off, I should think," Thompson concludes.
Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, said Dr Williams's comments gave "succour to extremists".
"He needs to understand that his words carry enormous weight," he said in a Channel 4 interview.
"What he seems to be talking about is a situation in which people are treated differently under the law according to their religion. People cannot be treated differently. Everyone should be equal in the eyes of the law. I don't doubt the archbishop's desire to accommodate diversity, but we cannot do so at the expense of our common values."
He described Dr Williams as "muddled" and "dangerous".
Williams' comments were condemned by Downing Street, the Tories and the chairman of the Government's Equalities and Human Rights Commission. They were described as a "recipe for chaos" by Culture Secretary Andy Burnham.
And on the continent a German Bishop protested Williams' comments saying a country needs a single legal system for everyone. " Bishop Wolfgang Huber, head of the Council of the Evangelical Church in Germany said integration can't be achieved through a dual legal system "Hoping to achieve integration through a dual legal system is a mistaken idea," Huber told Deutsche Welle in an exclusive interview. "You have to ask the question as to what extent cultural characteristics have a legitimate place in a legal system. But you have to push for one country to have one system."
A senior Church of England clergyman called for the resignation of the Archbishop of Canterbury, over his remarks supporting Sharia in England.
The call, from a long-standing member of the Church's governing body, the General Synod, demonstrates the strength of the backlash Dr. Williams faces from within his own Church - as well as from political and other faith leaders.
The senior Synod member, who insisted on remaining anonymous, told The Times, "A lot of people will now have lost confidence in him. I am just so shocked, and cannot believe a man of his intelligence could be so gullible. I can only assume that all the Muslims he meets are senior leaders of the community who tell him what a wonderful book the Koran is."
The Archbishop of York, Dr. John Sentamu, an ardent supporter of Williams, who has been fiercely critical of Muslim extremists, said last year that "the imposition of Sharia law in Britain as a Muslim society - that will never happen".
Even Muslim groups responded cautiously to Williams's proposals. A spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain said, "We will need to look carefully at the archbishop's lecture."
Its director, Mohammed Shafiq said, "Sharia law for civil matters is something which has been introduced in some western countries with much success; I believe that Muslims would take huge comfort from the Government allowing civil matters being resolved according to their faith."
He added, "We are however disappointed that the Archbishop of Canterbury was silent when Bishop Nazir-Ali was promoting intolerance and lying about no-go areas for Christians in the UK by Muslim extremists."
In his lecture, 57-year-old Dr. Williams said that "we have to think a little harder about the role and rule of law in a plural society of overlapping identities".
The group most offended by Williams' remarks is African Anglicans from the Global South.
One bishop, who has faced death threats not once, but twice, is the Archbishop of Jos in Northern Nigeria, The Most Rev. Ben Kwashi. He told the BBC, "Our people are in shock that an Anglican Archbishop is calling for Sharia law. Rowan Williams has damaged his international reputation. If the Christians are the ones asking for Sharia Law, now that will be used against us who are saying that we do not think Sharia law will help the cause of freedom and the cause of the gospel of Jesus Christ in Northern Nigeria. So if he, the primate of England, is the one asking for it, now what he has done is to arm those who will now have more arguments against us who are saying 'We don't need Sharia law."'"
Kwashi went on to say, "We have experienced it. We know it and in the last nine years full blown Sharia law has been introduced in at least 11 states in Northern Nigeria, and what the church are [sic] experiencing in these states is, to say the least, unbearable."
When asked by the BBC how surprised he was that a Christian Archbishop should have suggested, in some circumstances, that Sharia might be an appropriate part of the legal system in a country like Britain, Kwashi replied, "I am shocked. I am disappointed. I am in total disbelief. Because my hope is that when he, Archbishop of Canterbury, comes to , for example, and he comes to visit us, we will take him to our leaders, some of whom are Muslims and some of whom are Christians, and he can then speak on our behalf where we are not having a fair share. Can we now look up to him as a man who can speak on our behalf? You all know about the cutting of hands in Zamfara State. You remember the case of the woman in Kaduna State who was going to be stoned to death. All of those kinds of things are what we now are saying that we must examine carefully the implementation of Sharia and we are putting our discussions across with our own Muslim friends around here."
Said Kwashi, "If you ask for the first step of Sharia law, you are going to get to the last of it. By 1960 when Nigeria got Independence, it began as penal code. Once it came to this generation, they upgraded it to full blown Sharia. So it is only a matter of time when you begin from somewhere that you get to the real thing."
So the question is who and where were Williams' advisors when he wrote this speech? Did he talk to his close personal friend, Geoffrey Cameron, over at the Anglican Communion Office? Did he share it with anyone in Lambeth Palace? If not, why not?
Is he deliberately trying to undermine the Global South?
Observers have told VOL that there is now bitter enmity between him and Nigerian Archbishop Peter Akinola. This was evident at Dar es Salaam where one bishop told VOL that "Akinola was shamefully treated by Williams."
What of the rumors that Williams knows exactly what he is doing and that he is trying to marginalize the African Archbishops by forming new alliances with Archbishop Ian Ernest, Primate for the Indian Ocean, along with Archbishop John Chew of Southeast Asia and the new archbishop of Southern Africa while capitalizing on the chaos of Central Africa to isolate the CAPA bishops.
Now you know why trust between Williams and the Global South has evaporated and GAFCON is a reality and orthodox bishops will not go to Lambeth. The waters are getting clearer by the day.
There can be little doubt now that Williams' credibility in Africa is destroyed. He will never be able to hold his head up in on that continent, again. Furthermore, one doubts he has any credibility in the Southern Cone or Sydney, Australia. The Common Cause Partnership will morph into a new province under moderator and Pittsburgh Bishop Robert Duncan, whether Williams likes it or not. They simply won't give a fignooten whether he recognizes the province or not, VOL has been told.
It is game, set and match for the Imam of Canterbury. All trust is gone. The Archbishop must resign and, at the very least, the Bishop of Rochester, the Rt. Rev. Michael Nazir-Ali, should be considered to take his place. No one else is fit to run the Anglican Communion, and unlike the Archbishop of York, John Sentamu, he has not compromised himself with the theatrics and institutional gamesmanship for which Sentamu is known.
If the Anglican Communion is to survive, and that is doubtful, this is the moment for change.
END
| Poster | Thread |
|---|---|
| SheepFeed | Posted: 2008/2/8 19:46 Updated: 2008/2/8 20:43 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/10/22 From: Posts: 134 |
It really doesn't matter what Williams does. Whether he stays or goes, Humpty Dumpty already fell. The Anglican Communion can no longer define itself. It is dead. As in, "All the kings horses and all the kings men..."
There will be no new covenant. The Windsor report has resulted in nothing. Representatives for half of Anglicanism will be absent Lambeth 2008. The ABC is no longer "first among equals" for them. The "instruments of unity" have failed. It is now time for the faithful to gather together and hear what God is saying to those in the historically Anglican church. Fear not. We have an infinitely greater instrument of unity - a great high priest, who is Jesus Christ, the Messiah and Savior! If you can, get yourselves or your priest or bishop to GAFCON. Lambeth 2008 is as relevant to the true Body of Christ as a World Council of Churches meeting. And that is because Williams and his apostate minions designed it to be precisely that relevant. SheepFeed |
| AnamK | Posted: 2008/2/8 19:52 Updated: 2008/2/8 19:54 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/28 From: Florida Posts: 24 |
Perhaps he could spend his retirement working for women's rights in Baghdad as a penance.
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The images in the Basra police file are nauseating: Page after page of women killed in brutal fashion -- some strangled to death, their faces disfigured; others beheaded. All bear signs of torture. Police chief Gen. Abdul Jalil Khalaf holds a book cataloging the dead. The women are killed, police say, because they failed to wear a headscarf or because they ignored other "rules" that secretive fundamentalist groups want to enforce. |
| FrankV | Posted: 2008/2/8 20:09 Updated: 2008/2/8 20:09 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/5 From: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 302 |
When you think it can't get any worse, it gets worse. Is there any bottom to it?
|
| bev123 | Posted: 2008/2/8 20:23 Updated: 2008/2/8 20:23 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/2/18 From: Posts: 12 |
I have heard the ABC referred to as Ruin Williams,and I have to say I cannot think of a more apt description of Williams!This man is so eager to please the liberal element , that he has compromised his position as the Archbishop of Canterbury , beyond repair. He would be a laughingstock if what he seems to stand for was funny, but unfortunately it is indeed ruinous for the people who suffer for his wishy washy pronouncements! In my view he stands for nothing ,possibly hates women,and has been taken over by an evil spirit.Yes he should be run out of town on a rail! And you know he do not even care about Muslim women to want to see them continue to be brutalized under sharia law.The people of Britain who suffered so much to be free from tyranny, should see to it that he is made such a pariah , that he would not be welcome in decent society.Cast him out for the good of his soul or what is left of it......
![]() |
| Strider | Posted: 2008/2/8 20:29 Updated: 2008/2/8 20:40 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/26 From: Posts: 339 |
Quote:
I am just so shocked, and cannot believe a man of his intelligence could be so gullible. Frankly, we could use an ABC who has a little less so called "intelligence" and more COMMON SENSE! ...not to mention one who listens to God's will instead of the rumblings of his own intellect. Strider <*)))>< |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2008/2/8 20:53 Updated: 2008/2/8 20:53 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
While it's certainly apparent....at least to us conservatives....that Rowan Cantuar has done much damage to the Communion, I don't fully accept the notion that the damage is fatal. Has he brought disrespect to the See of Canterbury? Many think so. Does the the See need to continue to exist? I think it does. It will....even for reasons of tradition.
Now having said this, it will be up to whoever succeeds him as Archbishop....should he resign....to repair and maintain the dignity and viability of the office, and by extension, the reformation and existence of the Communion itself. Cennydd |
| Romans828 | Posted: 2008/2/8 20:57 Updated: 2008/2/8 21:01 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/27 From: Posts: 246 |
This story is taking on a life of its own.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see Williams resign within one week. While I agree that Michael Nazir-Ali would make an excellent ABC, we should remember that Williams' selection was a bold move in the sense that he's the first ABC from outside England. If London really wants to keep the Church of England the center of the Anglican Communion, it would be wise to consider candidates from outside the UK. That would not be too bold a move in this situation, and consistent with the trend now established. |
| DJ1943 | Posted: 2008/2/8 21:06 Updated: 2008/2/8 21:10 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/11/30 From: Ohio Posts: 240 |
Is this guy serious. ABC said: "He declared that Sharia and Parliamentary law should be given equal legal status so the people could choose which governs their lives."
People chose which laws govern their lives? MY God, how liberal can this outfit get? Can you imagine what life would be like in the US if every ethnic group lived under a different set of laws. Can you imagine what kind of nightmare that would be for law enforcement? In some countries if a daughter commits adultry, she can be murdered by her family. Does that mean that the ABC suggests they do the same in Britai?. Man this is bizarre ![]() |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2008/2/8 21:30 Updated: 2008/2/8 21:34 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Romans828, there is only one problem:
By law, the Archbishop of Canterbury must be a British subject, since the Church of England is the Established Church and it would take an Act of Parliament to change that. It would make no difference if he were from Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland. It would mean disestablishment as in Wales in 1923, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Cennydd |
| Romans828 | Posted: 2008/2/8 21:31 Updated: 2008/2/8 21:31 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/27 From: Posts: 246 |
Friday, Feb 8, 6 PM Eastern:
The (secular) Fox News network has just declared ABC Rowan Williams their top choice for "Loser of the Week" (followed by 2 murderers). |
| Causidicus | Posted: 2008/2/8 21:35 Updated: 2008/2/8 21:35 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/7/3 From: Posts: 1095 |
Is it over for the ABC?
Yes, if his wife or daughter find out he is in favor of the imposition of Sharia law. Better start eating at restaurants, Rowan. |
| Romans828 | Posted: 2008/2/8 21:37 Updated: 2008/2/8 21:37 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/27 From: Posts: 246 |
Cennydd, doesn't Gregory Venables still hold British citizenship?
|
| Drummie | Posted: 2008/2/8 22:05 Updated: 2008/2/8 22:20 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/9/27 From: Posts: 512 |
I think Rowan Williams feels that he has progressed so far in his "enlightenment with queen schori that he isn't capable of resigning. He is too much full of himself and his 'prophetic wisdom (idiocy) that you couldn't buy him into resignation. I almost put retirement but that hints at an honorable departure, and his should be ignomous rather than honorable.
It doesn't matter what he does though. He has become irrelavent to global Anglicanism and Christianity despite what Dr. Toon preaches about unity through Canterbury. You must have a Christian occupying the see of Canterbury to have unity with him and Rowan has progressed to the point that he serves everything BUT Christ. "The Prime Minister believes British law should apply in this country, based on British values." I wouldn't have said should, I would have said WILL. Cennydd: The See of Canterbury will continue in the Church of England. But that has nothing to do with what could become the See of the Archbishop of a new world wide communion. That See could be Bermuda, Jerusalem, Buenas Areas, Washington DC, or wherever it is decided it should be. I feel sure it will be in a larger traditionally Anglican city etc. But as head of the church for conservatives I think Canterbury is done, if for no other reason that to distance the orthodox from the heterodoxy that has come from there of late. If I am not badly mistaken Venebles is a British Subject. |
| AnamK | Posted: 2008/2/8 22:15 Updated: 2008/2/8 22:15 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/28 From: Florida Posts: 24 |
Quote from BBC
But Bishop of Hulme, the Rt Rev Stephen Lowe, criticised the "disgraceful" way in which the archbishop had been "ridiculed" and "lampooned" by some. "We have probably one of the greatest and the brightest archbishops of Canterbury we have had for many a long day," he said. |
| daveball | Posted: 2008/2/8 22:21 Updated: 2008/2/8 22:21 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/12/18 From: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 2377 |
My Brother Cennydd,
I am afraid we do not completely agree that the damage to the See of Canterbury as the First Among Equals of the Communion is not fatal. The damage was fatal long ago when Williams and his three predecessors failed to discipline the American church and other revisionist elements. It was over when the past four inhabitants of the See of Canterbury failed to insist on the expulsion of the likes of Spong and Pike. Demented old Rowan just sealed the deal and brought the problem into the spot light. If Canterbury has lost its moral authority as an instrument of unity, and it has, why is there any reason that it should be anything other than a failed See like Los Angeles or New Hampshire or many others? Even if the next Archbishop was a steller and Godly man, something unlikely given the state of the C of E, it would take generations to rebuild any confidence in Canterbury and for it to even be considered an equal among equals in the Communion. No, given where the C of E is and where Canterbury has gone, tradition gets nothing here. It will be a very long time before it could contribute meaningfully to any reformation. Time to move on. I favor electing the first among equals from among the legitimate Primates on a regular basis. I favor a strong role for the head Primate and the association of the Primates. This is not "Romish", this is simply effective organization. |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2008/2/8 22:43 Updated: 2008/2/8 22:46 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Daveball, the damage is fatal to the Communion AS WE'VE KNOWN IT, but that doesn't mean that the Communion can't continue under a different leadership.
For anyone else to serve as Archbishop of Canterbury would mean the repeal of British Law, which has historically mandated that the man holding that office must be a subject of the Crown. And in answer to your question, Romans828, Archbishop Venables is a British subject who would, in my opinion, be a fine choice for the job. The question is that since he is also OUR archbishop now, who would we find to replace him as Archbishop of the Southern Cone? Now that I've said this, bring on GAFCON! Cennydd |
| daveball | Posted: 2008/2/8 22:53 Updated: 2008/2/8 22:53 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/12/18 From: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 2377 |
Cennydd,
Understood. I ask, however, why the Communion, which is dependent upon God alone, must be dependant upon the See of Canterbury? Let the Brits appoint a loyal subject if that is what the law requires and let the Archbishop of somewhere else serve a term as the Primus Inter Pares. What are your thoughts on the Primates as a group playing a more powerful role in maintaining discipline? |
| Fisherman | Posted: 2008/2/8 23:10 Updated: 2008/2/8 23:15 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/8/25 From: Dallas - Province of the Southern Cone, DoFW Posts: 675 |
When +Ben Kwashi speaks out on a subject of this nature regarding someone like the ABC I know the situation is serious. After GAFCON, if the ABC is not already irrelevant he will be.
Should by some remote possibility the Anglican Communion survive, I believe that 3 of the 4 instruments of communion will become irrelevant. The Primates will be running the ship. |
| warmac9999 | Posted: 2008/2/8 23:20 Updated: 2008/2/8 23:20 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/2/16 From: Posts: 1463 |
The only way for the Anglican Communion to survive at this point is to replace Rowan Williams with a strong Christian man who is willing to cut his losses in the various liberal areas, and then directly compete with them on their own turf for the property and the souls. A man with a strong sense of Christianity and morality is quite capable of arresting the decline and growing the church. Short of that man, the Anglican Communion is done.
This, of course, would cause controversy. But at least it is a controversy with the potential for a positive outcome for all Christians. |
| Umbridge | Posted: 2008/2/8 23:51 Updated: 2008/2/8 23:53 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/2/8 From: Posts: 32 |
I have been enthralled by the stuff that has been going on with the Anglican community since Gene Robinson was elected. I have been tempted to visit our local Episcopal church. I once sent an email asking the church it's stance on the whole Gene Robinson issue so I could make up my mind as to whether or not I would visit. I got the following response...
Quote:
Based off that email, I decided not to attend. I don't want to waste my time listening to an inclusiveness sermon/lecture. Anyway, this is my first "dip" into the Anglican mess, and I'd have to say it is quite messy! |
| Falcon | Posted: 2008/2/9 0:03 Updated: 2008/2/9 0:03 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/16 From: A State Close to Heaven Posts: 137 |
Sometime while ago I pointed out Occam’s Razor to Howell. Time to roll out Hanlon’s Razor. This from www.jargon.net/jargonfile/h/HanlonsRazor.html
"A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, that reads "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." The derivation of the Hanlon eponym is not definitely known, but a very similar remark ("You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity.") appears in "Logic of Empire", a 1941 story by Robert A. Heinlein, who calls it the `devil theory' of sociology. Heinlein's popularity in the hacker culture makes plausible the supposition that `Hanlon' is derived from `Heinlein' by phonetic corruption. A similar epigram has been attributed to William James, but Heinlein more probably got the idea from Alfred Korzybski and other practitioners of General Semantics. Quoted here because it seems to be a particular favorite of hackers, often showing up in sig blocks, fortune cookie files and the login banners of BBS systems and commercial networks. This probably reflects the hacker's daily experience of environments created by well-intentioned but short-sighted people. Compare Sturgeon's Law." Although I may be giving the ABC too much of a goat rope even with this explanation. |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2008/2/9 0:28 Updated: 2008/2/9 0:32 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Quote:
What are your thoughts on the Primates as a group playing a more powerful role in maintaining discipline? I'm all for it, daveball! The problem is that some of them need convincing that they have to do it, and of course, you know that Mrs Schori and Company will never accept it. Personally, I couldn't care less WHAT they think! I think we need it, and I think most of the Primates know it. Cennydd |
| RMBruton | Posted: 2008/2/9 2:52 Updated: 2008/2/9 2:52 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/11/4 From: Biloxi, MS Posts: 109 |
Allow me to offer some possible explanations for the troubling statements which Dr. Williams has made. Perhaps his Elegance is off of his meds, or maybe he got a hold of an expired box of hosts or even some spoiled sacramental wine? He might have slipped on his Prie dieu and smacked his head on his missal? What if his clerical collar is too tight, it may be cutting off the circulation to his brain? It could be that some fiend replaced his favorite incense with crack cocaine. No, I'm afraid it is much worse, he actually believes the things he is saying. The tragedy is that there are people making excuses for him at all.
|
| Liberty | Posted: 2008/2/9 3:00 Updated: 2008/2/9 3:00 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/3/6 From: Posts: 105 |
Rush Limbaugh criticized the silly dangerous one as well. Rowan Williams should dress in an abaya with a dunce cap as his casual dress. Formally, Williams should wear a clown suit so he leaves no doubt even among the silly who take him seriously.
|
| helpmelord | Posted: 2008/2/9 4:07 Updated: 2008/2/9 4:07 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/2/5 From: Posts: 66 |
Sharia Law is the "law" of the terrorists we are at war with. To suggest there is any value to their law is insane!
|
| SUSIED | Posted: 2008/2/9 13:22 Updated: 2008/2/9 13:22 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/2/8 From: Posts: 2 |
Clearly the man is not a Christian.
No one has mentioned the word 'treason.' It would seem, as previously posted, the ABC would subvert the sovereignty of Queen Elizabeth and of God. |
| Truthseekr | Posted: 2008/2/9 14:50 Updated: 2008/2/9 14:53 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/14 From: terra firma ................ ( just a pilgrim passing thru ) Posts: 784 |
sigh,
Rowan needs to retire to a new home wherein Sharia Law is practiced. Rowan could then work for homosexual rights for clergy of all religions, and womens rights, by trying to build a support group locally.. Seriously, if he stays as the ABC, What else, could the boy of Canterbury do, to cause further damage to his church? What else, could the boy of Canterbury do, in addition to the things he has already done, to convince people that his ship is sinking? What does it take, to finally convince someone when a cause is lost and it is time to cut their losses? Lambeth, to many, has become a bad joke. The episcopal brand name has been ruined to the point that parents with children usually will not consider attending a church with that name. The ABC Anglican brand name is on the greased skids and sliding into the sea of "who cares anymore". It is time, to leave the spiritually dead, to bury the spiritually dead. It is time, oh so way past time, for GAFCON. |
| Dominic | Posted: 2008/2/9 17:43 Updated: 2008/2/9 17:44 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/10 From: London Posts: 285 |
There is a phrase used in British politics at the moment - particularly appertaining to incompetent government departments or ministers.
"NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE." This phrase is remarkably 'fit for purpose' in this context. The American phrase for a president about to leave office seems fitting too. "HE'S A LAME DUCK." Though 'dead duck' might be more apposite! |
| Newshound | Posted: 2008/2/9 17:44 Updated: 2008/2/9 17:44 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/5 From: Posts: 238 |
I saw a story yesterday on Metrosource (a broadcast news organization), which quoted the British newspaper "The Sun" as saying "It would be easy just to regard Dr. Williams as a silly old goat, but he is dangerous''
Archbishop Williams seems to want to make statements calling the United States "imperialists" and now he is making statements that could both offend Christians and Muslims. I think at the very least, officials of the British government, including Prime Minister Brown, should have a talk with Dr. Williams about boundaries, or things are going to get worse. |
| BishopNedd | Posted: 2008/2/9 18:45 Updated: 2008/2/9 18:45 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/12 From: Diocese of the Chesapeake Posts: 16 |
I must admit that I feel for Dr. Williams. It has seemed clear to me early on, that his greatest desire since becoming the Archbishop of Canterbury, is for the whole thing not to fall apart on his watch. That didn't work out so well.
|
| bradhutt | Posted: 2008/2/9 20:06 Updated: 2008/2/9 20:06 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/5 From: Washington D.C. Metro Area Posts: 146 |
Can one be educated beyond their own intelligence?
|
| quissum | Posted: 2008/2/9 20:27 Updated: 2008/2/9 20:27 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/18 From: Posts: 338 |
Praemonitus est praemunitus, "forewarned is forearmed." Perhaps we are witnesssing the greatest--however unintended--lesson this ABC will leave behind by becoming a byword for ineptitude and spiritual treason.
The distortions of this thinking--hugely prevalent, one fears, among too many bishops and other xian leaders in the West--is the inevitable result of the sustained and deep corruption of the wells of learning in the once great universities and seminaries of Great Britain and the United States. Having gone beyond a "liberalism' which at least recognized the validity of reason and the existence of truth, the postmodernism that informs the ABC and his ilk a priori denies Truth and ANY orthodoxy is antithetical and anathema to its divinized pluralism. As in ancient paganism, all are to be tolerated--except any who resist the spirit of such "benevolent" pluralism. What is also quite annoying about such as Williams--beyond the spiritually deadly disease that informs their thinking--is the sheer gnosticism pretending to be 'advanced thinking' that so casually and arrogantly spouts such a breathtakingly stupid comment as this about sharia having any legitimate place in a civilized country with a Christian heritage! Not only does it reveal a naivete that would be pitiful were it not so dangerous in a man of his position, but raises a genuine question of how really sane he is. This is a new one, however: One would have thought Williams more prone to antinomianism and 'cheap grace' than to endorse a legalism that makes the Mosaic legislation look like kindergarten. Well, at least you can't tie him down. It could be hilarious for the sheer incongruity were it not so very tragic and momentously inopportune. Observe closely, faithful bishops of the Global South and elsewhere; be warned! |
| ZachD | Posted: 2008/2/9 21:43 Updated: 2008/2/9 21:46 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1791 |
I'd like to remind this bloggership about the release of the S.P.R.E.A.D. Document last year at this time. "Our" ABC has been a busy fella.
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5546 |
| jfmckenna | Posted: 2008/2/9 23:17 Updated: 2008/2/9 23:17 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/4 From: Posts: 584 |
when they come to stone him to death, will he continue his stance of tolerance?
|
| Ikerliker | Posted: 2008/2/10 1:58 Updated: 2008/2/10 1:58 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2051 |
One can only hope he goes quietly.
Don't go away mad Rowan, just go away! Lord have mercy! |
| durham | Posted: 2008/2/10 1:59 Updated: 2008/2/10 1:59 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/7/26 From: Posts: 14 |
Heretics beget heretics, I guess. Or flock together.
|
| cjconner | Posted: 2008/2/10 4:21 Updated: 2008/2/10 4:21 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/14 From: Saint Paul Minnesota Posts: 53 |
It will be interesting to see how the lines are drawn in support of or against Rowan.
Did he stumble onto a clever way to save the Anglican Communion- A Church so divided yet united in a common new-found disdain for Williams? If he does resign over this, it signifies a shift in anxiety- however brief- from what divides the communion (TEC)- to the incompetence of Williams. Hopefully the next ABC is appointed as an orthodox uniter rather than a radical revisionist divider. |
| DurantFan | Posted: 2008/2/10 6:55 Updated: 2008/2/10 6:55 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/6/25 From: Davis, California Posts: 5 |
The Archbishop of Canterbury could save his position by rejecting Sharia Law and clearly embracing the history and traditions of the Anglican Church. The late but still popular historians Will and Ariel Durant provide solid guidance in their classic text, "The Lessons of History" (Simon and Schuster, 1968). On page 35 of this text, they say:
"Intellect is a vital force of history, but it can also be a dissolvent and destructive power. Out of every hundred new ideas, ninety nine or more will probably be inferior to the traditional responses which they propose to replace. No one man or woman, however brilliant or well informed, can come in one lifetime to such fullness of understanding as to safely judge and dismiss the customs or institutions of his or her society, for these are the wisdom of generations after centuries of experiment in the laboratory of history. Perhaps I should recast this quote to make it more relevant to this article and the ongoing division occurring within the Anglican Church. Let's try: "No single Archbishop of Canterbury, however brilliant or well informed, can come in one lifetime to such fullness of understanding as to safely judge and dismiss the customs or traditions of his Church, for these are the wisdom of generations of the faithful after centuries of experiment in the laboratory of history." The Archbishop of Canterbury must reject Sharia Law and embrace Church history and tradition. Without his strong stand, Sharia Law and the ongoing war between traditional conservatives and progressive liberals within the Church will bring about a death spiral. God Bless the Church! |
| MichaelA | Posted: 2008/2/10 7:42 Updated: 2008/2/10 7:42 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
Falcon,
A good point bringing up Occam's Razor. William of Occam formulated this as: “For nothing ought to be posited without a reason given, unless it is self-evident or known by experience or proved by the authority of Sacred Scripture.” Occam was not putting reason above scripture in matters of doctrine, but pointing out that even in the world of science, Scripture has authority. Rowan W would do well to listen. I agree that Rowan W is now nothing more than a "lame duck" ABC, in the eyes of the world as well as those of the Church. Yet there are many clerics in the Church of England who have supported him. Time for a reckoning with them as well. Regards Michael |
| yendor | Posted: 2008/2/10 9:27 Updated: 2008/2/10 9:27 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/11/3 From: Posts: 87 |
You have all got it wrong - this is really put on just to show the world that the Brits are better than the Yanks.
The Yanks could only come up with a TEC priestess who was a Moslem - the Brits have got an Archbishop! |
| db4him | Posted: 2008/2/10 13:29 Updated: 2008/2/10 13:29 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/19 From: Posts: 425 |
This dramatically raises the stakes with GAFCON. It is, in essence, the first Lambeth meeting of the new Communion.
God is not mocked, and for too long those in high places within the Communion have been openly mocking Him. This latest declaration by the ABC to equalize Muslim law with Judeo-Christian law is nothing less than that. These people call themselves Christians, but the words they utter and for many, the lifestyle they choose decries allegiance elsewhere. We must distance ourselves from them. |
| ACLins | Posted: 2008/2/10 22:48 Updated: 2008/2/10 22:48 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/3/31 From: Kentucky Posts: 242 |
Dr. Peter Toon offers this assessment of +Rowan Williams’ recent public statement about Sharia Law in the UK: “We can say things in the family circle that are not appropriately said at the Town Hall Meeting. The Rector can say things to the Church Vestry that are not appropriately part of the announcements on Sunday. The academic can propose ideas and policies in the Senior Common Room that are not suitable for a public lecture. A parent does not speak to the five year old child in the same way as to a teenager. Human beings have long been aware that not every thought, good or bad, in the mind requires expression in words in any company on any occasion. We are to discriminate between what to say, when to say it, how to say it, where to say it and to whom to say it.
In his tenure as Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan has from time to time made public statements in such areas as sexuality, international politics and American foreign policy, that are perfectly rational in themselves if delivered to friends in an Oxford Common Room; but, with an attentive media and the Web, are read by many in politically populist or common sense way. That is, any subtleties or sub-themes are missed and his statements with little context are sent into the world to be understood at one level only, the crudest one. With this experience under his belt, it is amazing that Rowan went a few days ago before the legal establishment in England and argued that it was time to allow the use of Muslim Sharia Law within British Law, just as Orthodox Jewish Law is allowed in certain areas. All perfectly reasonable and reflecting an appreciation of the powerful traditions of Islam, but a position which is a minority position in Church and State. Further, the Archbishop was not speaking to friends inside Lambeth Palace but publicly, with the press there to listen and report. Further, he was speaking within a country where tensions between Muslim areas and neighborhoods around them are ripe for explosion. Then also he was speaking as the leader of the bishops of the Anglican Family, and many of them live in situations where they face all kinds of difficulties and problems caused by the local imposition of Sharia Law. Rowan did not have to make this speech and say what he did. By this one speech, Rowan has lost much support in Britain, the Church of England, and the Anglican Communion of Churches. It appears that he is not able to discriminate between when to share his (complex) thoughts with his friends and when to share them with the world. This failure to discriminate would seen to disqualify him from high office. Regrettably, this business casts another cloud over the forthcoming Lambeth Conference, weakening his leadership and making it now very difficult to persuade the Nigerian Bishops to attend! Oh how very, very sad! More chastisement of the Lord upon the Anglican Family, already in such pain and confusion.” |
| Falcon | Posted: 2008/2/10 23:50 Updated: 2008/2/10 23:50 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/16 From: A State Close to Heaven Posts: 137 |
Amen, Michael.
Peace, Falcon |
| Roland | Posted: 2008/2/11 17:01 Updated: 2008/2/11 17:01 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/11/4 From: MaryLand Posts: 20 |
DV wrote: "He declared that Sharia and Parliamentary law should be given equal legal status so the people could choose which governs their lives."
I'm sorry, but he said nothing of the sort. All of the people who are criticizing +Rowan are basing their criticisms on misleading, sensationalistic headlines that misrepresent what he actually said. The subject of his lecture - and of the preceding BBC radio interview - was how the British legal system might accommodate the religious values of its citizens. It already does so, but mostly in ad hoc, informal ways. He suggested how one might begin to think about such accommodation in a more systematic way, and some issues that it might involve. Do you favor exempting Catholic pharmacists from filling birth-control prescriptions? If so, then you agree with the overarching point of +Rowan's lecture. The only people who should be upset at +Rowan's lecture are committed secularists. I'm sure Richard Dawkins is amused to see Christians doing his dirty work for him by arguing that the legal system should be uniformly secular and should not accommodate the values and concerns of religious citizens. |
| Dominic | Posted: 2008/2/11 17:37 Updated: 2008/2/11 17:37 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/10 From: London Posts: 285 |
The Times online reports that the Synod of the CofE today gave a 'repentant ABC a standing ovation'. I doubt this for two reasons.
1. He has been far from repentant, and has in fact denied that his comments were in any way encouraging the use of sharia law. When one of his direct quotes is:"There's a place for finding what would be a constructive accommodation with some aspects of Muslim law...” I find I can't call that repentant, but lying. 2. I know some evangelical men in Synod who would never give Rowan Williams a standing ovation - even if he were to be converted to the Christian faith they woud simply raise thanks to God. The media seem to have now decided it is time to be nice to him - can't think why! ![]() |
| SpaceCadet | Posted: 2008/2/11 19:15 Updated: 2008/2/11 19:29 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/30 From: Burleson, TX. Posts: 11 |
I think he does. Seeing as he is probably going to be our primate within a year, I would appreciate it if you don't lobby for his elevation to the ABC. I am sure he would be a vast improvement over the current one, but please leave him be. I have reached the point that communion with Canterbury is meaningless.
|
| aspire1983 | Posted: 2008/2/11 21:17 Updated: 2008/2/11 21:17 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/10/12 From: FORMERLY Diocese of Virginia / Now CANA Posts: 421 |
Quote:
"The idea that 'one law for everyone' is 'a bit of a danger', as Williams argues, goes against every tradition of English law and culture that the Primate of All England is supposed to uphold." The idea that Rowan Williams is a Christian is a bit of a joke! To suggest that having one law for everyone is dangerous is in diametric opposition to the Bible: Numbers 15:16 "There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you." (By the way, Row... in case you wondered... that was GOD talking in Numbers. Leave it to the Muslims to defend Islam. YOU'RE supposed to be defending the Christian faith!) |
| ahauber | Posted: 2008/2/12 2:41 Updated: 2008/2/12 21:25 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/3/5 From: Georgia Posts: 149 |
OK, let me get in my 2 cents worth before this response trail gets any longer.
Is it all over for the Imam of Canterbury? Yes, and perhaps more than that. When I first heard this story, I thought the old goat (what else can you call someone with a beard like that) had slipped from academically dysfunctional to medically delusional. But I watched the video and he seemed about as coherent as he ever does. So, I have to assume that he had said this with some purpose. It can't be to destroy the English system of law to accommodate a 3.5% minority in their population. It's the kind of thing that some air heads in this country might do to curry favor and buy votes but the English would rather give up their monarchy then their rule of law, which, I think, was the ultimatum that won them that rule of law to begin with. He has a purpose and we need to dig a little deeper to find it. It's fun to make fun of the ridiculous things that we see people doing who aren't supposed to be ridiculous. And I love a well crafted cheap-shot as well as the next guy but what the Imam of Canterbury has done it to fire the first real salvo in an attack against the primates of the Global South. He is saying, "You dare threaten MY Lambeth conference? I will threaten your puny lives! I will embolden your enemies to force their Sharia Law on you, to destroy your ministries, and to enslave your followers forever in the darkness and hopelessness of Islam." Yes, David, it's over for the Imam of Canterbury. For he has crossed a line from which he cannot retreat. He has exposed for all to see, clearly, the depravity of his own dark soul. But there's more. There is a 'defender of the faith' who has, in her usual fashion, remained conspicuously silent in this whole matter. It's not just over for the Imam of Canterbury, but for Canterbury itself. It's inhabitant and the one responsible for him have proven themselves to be incompetent and irresponsible. There is no longer any reason for the spiritual leadership of the Anglican Communion to reside in England. Selah! It's like when God turns the weapons of the enemy against themselves and brings about their own destruction. The old fool had meant to protect Lambeth and discredit the Global South leaders. Instead, he has destroyed whatever meaning was left in Lambeth and made GAFCON very, very, very important. It may not be funny anymore, but that's the way I see it. Andy |
| ACLins | Posted: 2008/2/12 23:21 Updated: 2008/2/13 12:11 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/3/31 From: Kentucky Posts: 242 |
Pray and fast for the protection of Christians around the world who are targeted by Sharia justified violence, especially young women of marriage age. Here is an example: http://tinyurl.com/3yaxsk
|
| orthotox | Posted: 2008/2/15 22:24 Updated: 2008/2/15 22:24 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/22 From: Canada Posts: 7 |
Her comes the Arch, the Collosus of Cant-
erbury, straddling Mecca and Sodom; All hail Hypocrisy's hierophant As he reaches out to... the bottom! |
| Chetty | Posted: 2008/2/20 1:23 Updated: 2008/2/20 1:23 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/12/11 From: Posts: 4 |
This is a scream. This has nothing to do with liberal or conservative. You know it's bad when even Muslim clerics prepare statements saying...that may not be such a good idea.. What a mess. Queen Elizabeth must be taking Lunesta to sleep through this.
|
| nuparadigm | Posted: 2008/2/22 20:57 Updated: 2008/2/22 20:57 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/4/16 From: Texas Posts: 7 |
His pathology has always qualified him as a member-in-good-standing of the Fellowship of the Doofi. I'm surprised that he hasn't been sacked.
|
| frfredl | Posted: 2008/3/15 20:55 Updated: 2008/3/15 20:55 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/6/14 From: Posts: 1 |
I suggest the Bishop of Durham, N.T. "Tom" Wright for ABC! Wise, orthodox, scholarly, solid. He might be the salvation (if one is possible) of the Anglican Communion.
|
| Anglican50 | Posted: 2008/3/17 2:31 Updated: 2008/3/17 2:31 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/3/13 From: Posts: 4 |
What Dr. Williams has done is pathetic to say the least. However, he actions reflect a Christian Church in severe peril. Dr. Williams comments giving Islamic Law parity with already established laws of our Judeo-Christian tradition is only the tip of the iceberg. According to the numbers, C of E attendance out of 25 million is about 7% every Sunday; but it gets better; since 1977 there has been English clergy who don't even believe in the Godhead of Christ. In addition the C of E will have pagan female bishops by 2012, making every ordination of a male priest invalid. The question is not whether or not Williams is done, the real questions to ask is whether or not the C of E is done. Also who cares whether Williams is done or not; the Cof E will only replace him with someone worse or marginally better. Let's face it, the last time the office was filled with someone good was Michael Ramsey in 1964.
|




































