Exclusives : Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split Communion
GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE CONFERENCE THREATENS TO SPLIT COMMUNION
Middle East Archbishop Sounds Negative Note on GAFCON. Akinola Replies
Exclusive Report
By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
12/31/2007
The President Bishop of the Middle East, the Most Rev. Dr. Mouneer Anis, has written to the Primate of Nigeria, Archbishop Peter Akinola, asking him to reconsider the "timing and venue" of the announced GAFCON meeting of orthodox Anglicans in the Holy Land scheduled for June 2008, just a month before the Lambeth Conference meets in Canterbury.
In correspondence obtained by VOL, Archbishop Mouneer wrote saying he wanted to share his thoughts on the proposed GAFCON meeting.
"It will be a great joy for the Liberals if the conservatives boycott the Lambeth Conference. They will not find any resistance like the one made by the Global South Bishops in 1998. Secondly our absence will create a vacuum. I expect that at least 50% of the African Bishops will attend Lambeth Conference. Many of those do not have enough IT access and resources to fully understand the current crises. This means that 80% will attend and the strong voices from the South will be missed. The conservatives will find themselves as a minority between the Liberals and unaware African Conservatives.
"If we all attend, because Lambeth and the Anglican Communion are ours, we can change many things as in 1998. No one will force a specific agenda if we do not accept. Our presence can help those who are not aware of the problems."
Mouneer went on to cite St. Athanasius of Alexandria and his Bishop who went to Nicaea and fought the good fight against Arius. "They won. The creed that we say today was the result of this."
Mouneer said he was encouraged by the meeting in Nairobi, "where you reflected on the future of our Anglican presence. Like you, I am so disappointed in regard to the new theological direction of the churches in North America and other parts of the West. This direction undermines the authority of the Scripture, the nature of Christ, His death and resurrection. Like you, I am so disappointed because of the lack of discipline within our Communion. It is sad that we waste our time in meeting after meeting while TEC and Canada ignore all the warnings and requests of such meetings.
"I totally agree that we, the orthodox Anglican, should meet and discuss the challenges that are facing us and the ways that we go forward in the future. However, I am concerned about the timing you chose for such a meeting."
"It will be seen as an event to replace Lambeth Conference (LC). Especially after several of us have declared that we will not attend Lambeth Conference. This will prevent many orthodox Anglicans, especially from the West from attending such a meeting. Waiting for after Lambeth Conference will help us to understand what issues we need to discuss and how we can move forward. This will be mainly about the covenant. Will it be agreeable or will it be reduced to an unacceptable form? This also will help us to draft an acceptable one for the covenant which can be circulated before our meeting and signed during it. Many orthodox Anglicans will not be ready to sign any covenant before Lambeth Conference. We need to aim to be a covenantal family.
"If we met after LC, say November, will give us enough time to study and develop a structured network for the orthodox Anglicans in the world with all the needed statements of faith, mission, constitution and organizational structures. It will also give us time to agree beforehand about the possible outcome and recommendations of this meeting. A successful meeting requires very good preparation for the outcome; otherwise it will become another event like the previous Global South events. Without good preparation, possible division may occur during the meeting, especially among Global South members and those from the West who join for the first time.
"In regard to the site, 'Jerusalem', I doubt that we will get the support of the Bishop there for various reasons. Even if he agreed initially, things may change several months afterwards. This will put us in an awkward position. It is my region and I know it better than you. To say we will do a pilgrimage to attract Bishops, and yet it is not entirely a pilgrimage, is not right in my point of view.
"For the above reasons I would be grateful if you could reconsider the timing and the venue."
In a letter back to Mouneer, Akinola wrote saying how much he shared his perceptions and analyses of the situation we are in. "The new theological direction of the North American Churches and the lack of discipline are matters we both grieve about. I am also grateful that we share the same judgement that it is important that the orthodox Anglicans should meet and discuss the challenges before us. "You have again raised issues of the timing and the venue of such a meeting. I appreciate your concerns. I also agree with you that any discussion of a structured network for orthodox Anglicans with statements of faith, constitution and organisational structure needs proper preparation. We are not at that point yet and that is why we need to meet in June.
"I think it would be rather too precipitous to meet for the first time within a few months after Lambeth to try and engage in such structured realignment. What is most urgently required is an opportunity to meet and concentrate on our Lord, on the gospel, on his ministry and his mission and its implication for our obedience. We have dissipated so much energy and focused on TEC agenda for four years that we have not adequately discussed these matters of the greatest importance. We began to do so at the Africa Bishops conference at Lagos in 2004. We now wish to meet as a Global Fellowship to build on those discussions. Our meeting must not be in reaction to Lambeth. We must set the agenda of the gospel first.
"As we talked together at Nairobi, it became clear than a number of primates, leading a substantial number of bishops, feel they need to provide the spiritual care and encouragement which they would otherwise hope to receive at Lambeth, but which they cannot provide because of their principled objection to the current composition of the conference, which I believe you share. So our meeting is also necessary to provide that spiritual care.
"Be assured that we considered your important arguments carefully as we met in Nairobi. But we came to the unanimous conclusion that we needed to proceed. "I hope that you will trust the discernment of your brothers, their wish to remain in fellowship with you, and their earnest hope that you will feel most welcome to be with us in this time of gathering together and pilgrimage to lay the first steps for the future we all desire."
END
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| Poster | Thread |
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| Howell | Posted: 2007/12/30 20:36 Updated: 2007/12/30 20:36 |
Home away from home   Joined: 2007/1/13 From: Colorado Posts: 444 |
 Re: GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE CONFERENCE THREATENS TO SPLIT ...Methinks Dr. Anis suffers from a "senior moment" when he says: "If we all attend Lambeth, we can change many things as in 1998. No one will force a specific agenda if we do not accept." Oh? The truth of TEC post-Lambeth 1998 has been just the opposite. He gets it correct when he says "It is sad that we waste time in meeting after meeting, while TEC and Canada ignore all the warnings and requests of such meetings." But he should take his own advice.
Recently I waas looking through a book of "Church Signs Across America" and noted several that TEC would do well to consider: 1. "Never Put a Question Mark Where God Puts a Period." 2. The Ten Commandments are Not Multiple-choice." 3. Following the Path of Least Resistance is What Makes Rivers,Men and Churches Crooked." 4. "Having Truth Decay? - Brush Up on Your Bible." 5. "Christians Who Speak Different Languages, Talk Babel." 6. "Forbidden Fruit Creates Many Jams." 7. "Eternity - Smoking or Non-Smoking?" |
| Greidinger | Posted: 2007/12/30 21:33 Updated: 2007/12/30 21:33 |
Not too shy to talk  Joined: 2004/1/10 From: Posts: 32 |
Re: GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE CONFERENCE THREATENS TO SPLIT ... Perhaps it might help give us some insight to what happened at the last Lambeth, in 1998 if one went to:
http://www.stephenswitness.com/2007/12/lambeth-diary-1998-week-one.html and read (at least week three). I found it very illuminating, and learned a lot I had never seen before. In case that didn't wrap, try this; http://tinyurl.com/25rnme Blessings, alway, Grandmother |
| ZachD | Posted: 2007/12/30 22:46 Updated: 2007/12/30 22:46 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1791 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... Quote:
"It will be a great joy for the Liberals if the conservatives boycott the Lambeth Conference." True. Quote: I expect that at least 50% of the African Bishops will attend Lambeth Conference. Many of those do not have enough IT access and resources to fully understand the current crises. This means that 80% will attend and the strong voices from the South will be missed. The conservatives will find themselves as a minority between the Liberals and unaware African Conservatives. African Bishops are not stupid. In fact, it has been rightly and generously stated, here, that they are better educated than the 'faux-doctorates' of the West. Does anyone think that these brothers-in-the-faith don't TALK to each other? And, yes, they are already a minority - but a minority that had the 'cahonees' to make a very real difference in the past, once they obtained enough courage to challenge manipulation and status quo. Quote: "Our presence can help those who are not aware of the problems." Like I said, the African Primates are not stupid. Quote: Mouneer went on to cite St. Athanasius of Alexandria and his Bishop who went to Nicaea and fought the good fight against Arius. "They won. The creed that we say today was the result of this." Nobody can argue with this point. The Conservative voice has been diminishing for years. Their presence would indeed adjust the balance of power at table. For some, though, this is too little, too late. The clock is indeed ticking on this global morass. Archbishop Mouneer said some beautiful and powerful things in New Orleans. I pray that he will trust in what the Lord will do with this 'less than perfect' situation. Archbishop Akinola is well-backed, and well informed. His love for Christ Jesus matches his love for our global communion. As this plays out, we all need to fast and pray. We need to beg God's intervention in all of our affairs. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/12/30 22:46 Updated: 2007/12/30 22:46 |
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Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... Abp. Amis writes: "For the above reasons I would be grateful if you could reconsider the timing and the venue."
I understand Abp. Akinola's gracious response to Abp. Amis to clearly mean that while he's grateful for ++Amis's concerns and largely agrees with them, the timing and venue of GAFCON 2008 will take place as announced. ------------ P.S. Hearty Congratulations David Virtue for being the first to report this important newsworthy item in the Anglican blogosphere. |
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| otispage2 | Posted: 2007/12/31 0:03 Updated: 2007/12/31 0:03 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 615 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... Out of Africa comes the resolve that will either save the Anglican Communion or determine its final conclusion as serving the god of relativism. The irony is this honors William Wilberforce (1759-1833) for emancipating those who now come to defend the “faith once given” that provided the moral and political basis for Africa’s freedom!
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| Sodslaw | Posted: 2007/12/31 0:25 Updated: 2007/12/31 0:25 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/8/3 From: Orthodox Bunker Posts: 343 |
Borderline Personality Church No I am not saying that Dr. Anis is leading a withdrawal or retreatng here, but if I were a gambling man, I would say that everyone will go to Lambeth and drink tea with Rowan. Politics and playing nice, rather than boundaries and gospel truth will be the death of our Christian heritage. I have predicted that Lambeth will be uninterrupted by this additional (but not alternative) conference, and I am still a nose ahead at beechers brook! (as they say in England).
The old, "get lost, come back, I need you" will not get us what we need. I would love to see all of these Primates and others decline Lambeth and bring the ABP to account. Attending sells out +Minns and +Murphy and all the other faithful bishops who were not on the guest list because their flavor didn't suit the taste of the host. Archbishop Akinola, if you are reading this, please stand strong, the Communion of the faithful needs your witness right now! |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/12/31 0:39 Updated: 2007/12/31 0:39 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Re: Borderline Personality Church I would much rather have ALL of the primates at Lambeth, and I would rather have them stand up and say "Now look here: Whether you like it or not, we are going to have our voices heard! You bishops from The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada have had things your way long enough, and now it's OUR turn to call the shots for once. We've got something to say, and you're going to listen for a change!"
Cennydd |
| Ikerliker | Posted: 2007/12/31 1:08 Updated: 2007/12/31 1:08 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2051 |
Re: Borderline Personality Church No matter when this is held, it will interfear with somebody's timeline so since it has already been advertised, I say go for it. Lambeth will be another Episcopal Jamboree and a waste of time. The liberals will not yield or be convinced otherwise that they are wrong.
TEc will throw their money at people and get what they want at Lambeth. Also, Rowan is supportive of TEc and the heresies they are spreading so what's the point anymore. It's time to split. |
| otispage2 | Posted: 2007/12/31 1:31 Updated: 2007/12/31 1:32 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 615 |
Re: Borderline Personality Church With respect, Cennydd, when you say, “we are going to have our voices heard!”, have you considered the fact those “voices” very clearly stated the issue in 1998 and were subsequently manipulated and lied to by ECUSA/TEC?
Have you considered the fact that ABC has done nothing – absolutely nothing – to hold them to account as being done by the “voices” from Africa? Given that which has occurred, how can we expect any other result other than Lambeth 2008 allowing TEC and Canada to pursue the lie that the Holy Spirit sanctions their bringing the Communion out of the dark ages of homophobic contempt for gays, lesbians and bisexuals? The issue is defined, TEC will not relent, and those who stand against them will be compromised further by lies, manipulation and the subjection that comes from TEC dollars spread liberally by the types such as Louie Crew to buy out the Communion. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/12/31 1:31 Updated: 2007/12/31 1:31 |
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Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... There has been speculation over whether the Bishop of Jerusalem was informed and aware that GAFCON 2008 was going to be held in his jurisdiction.
Well, given how the Archbishop of Canterbury conducted a secret Communion Service for gays without telling the Bishop of London in whose diocese the secret gay Communion Service was held, what does it matter about whether the Bishop of Jerusalem was informed and aware about GAFCON 2008? After all, the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams himself is modeling that diocesan boundaries can be crossed without giving notice or seeking permission. "But even his critics have been taken aback to learn that he did so by making an incursion on to the patch of the Bishop of London, the Right Rev Richard Chartres, without giving notice or seeking permission." From: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3111435.ece |
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| Craig | Posted: 2007/12/31 2:36 Updated: 2007/12/31 2:36 |
Just can't stay away   Joined: 2004/6/8 From: Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 72 |
Re: Borderline Personality Church Not to pile on, but I agree that any conservative efforts at Lambeth would be a HUGE mistake.
Let the revisionists run free at LC08. Let them dance naked with clown feet and rainbow hair. Allow them to put their apostacy on parade, unopposed by any level heads. Maybe we'll get some great pics of Schori in her silly vestments flying a kite off the palace steps. The gamesmanship is over. How many times on this board have posters said enough is enough? Well, enough IS enough. It is time to get on to the important things. Craig. |
| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2007/12/31 4:47 Updated: 2007/12/31 4:53 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... Cennydd
“I would much rather have ALL of the primates at Lambeth, and I would rather have them stand up and say "Now look here: Whether you like it or not, we are going to have our voices heard! You bishops from The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada have had things your way long enough, and now it's OUR turn to call the shots for once. We've got something to say, and you're going to listen for a change!" Thank you! Amen! otispage2 “With respect, Cennydd, when you say, “we are going to have our voices heard!”, have you considered the fact those “voices” very clearly stated the issue in 1998 and were subsequently manipulated and lied to by ECUSA/TEC?” It matters not what they do, only what we do, or do not do. So Lambeth 1998 worked properly and forced the revisionists to subsequently lie? I would call that a limited success not a failure. The lies are in and there for everyone to see. That is actually ammunition for Lambeth 2008! ”Have you considered the fact that ABC has done nothing – absolutely nothing – to hold them to account as being done by the “voices” from Africa?” I think we are all painfully aware of this. The numbers are still on our side. The person sitting as the ABC has been a disappointment. It is time for him to be forced to live up to his commitment as ABC. That cannot be done by staying home in protest. ”Given that which has occurred, how can we expect any other result other than Lambeth 2008 allowing TEC and Canada to pursue the lie that the Holy Spirit sanctions their bringing the Communion out of the dark ages of homophobic contempt for gays, lesbians and bisexuals?” Lambeth 1998 had limited success. I have faith that Lambeth 2008 can clarify those earlier successes and be even more successful, with God’s help. ”The issue is defined, TEC will not relent, and those who stand against them will be compromised further by lies, manipulation and the subjection that comes from TEC dollars spread liberally by the types such as Louie Crew to buy out the Communion.” The question is not whether Tec will relent, but whether we will. Tec’s determination is not being called into question. It is our firmness in faith, resolve and determination that is being called into question. Will we simply surrender the Anglican Communion without a fight? Right now, that is the question. I do NOT believe that is God’s Will and calling for us! TheTruth, “How can we do this when everyone is arguing over minutia?” I am sorrowed that you believe this is all just “minutia”. ”I challenge everyone who posts on this site to spend the time they would normally on doing Christian deeds in 2008. Feed the hungry, house the homeless, volunteer in your communities, sacrifice oneself for the greater good of humankind.” You confuse good deeds for “humanity” with Christian deeds. Human “good deeds” are not in themselves the Good News”! Jesus Christ being the only way to the Father and providing us with God’s narrow path for our salvation is the Good news! You can “feed the hungry, house the homeless, volunteer in your communities, sacrifice oneself for the greater good of humankind” and not know Christ or be saved. You can be an atheist and secularist and still accomplish theses things. ”We can make this world a better place, you and me, but we're not going to get it done through arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.” We wish to make the world a better place through faith in Jesus Christ as our personal savior. It matters not “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” or how many homosexuals it takes to screw in a light bulb. ”We are all sinners and have the blood of Eden running through our veins, All will be well to the extent we make this our primary focus.” You gave got to be kidding! Just where is that secular statement found in Holy Scripture? Our primary focus MUST be on Jesus Christ as the only way to the Father and walking God’s narrow path that leads to salvation! ”May the Lord continue to richly bless you all.” May you find Jesus Christ as your personal savior and permit Him to guide you to live your life with Him at the center of your life. That is where there is true joy and peace. Feeling good about nice and warm and fuzzy good deeds does not last or in themselves lead to salvation. May you experience the true blessing of our Lord Jesus Christ. |
| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2007/12/31 4:56 Updated: 2007/12/31 4:56 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Borderline Personality Church Craig,
"Let the revisionists run free at LC08. Let them dance naked with clown feet and rainbow hair. Allow them to put their apostacy on parade, unopposed by any level heads. Maybe we'll get some great pics of Schori in her silly vestments flying a kite off the palace steps." Let's not. Let them do this in their own convention, not ours! |
| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2007/12/31 5:03 Updated: 2007/12/31 5:12 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... I have nothing but the greatest respect for the Most Rev. Dr. Mouneer Anis. He should have been an integral part of planning GAFCON. It was a mistake that he was not.
But that does not negate the necessity of this conference. His wisdom must be taken into account. It would be very bad should the people contacted when setting up this conference undermined it by withdrawing their support at the last minute. Though the Most Rev. Dr. Mouneer Anis was not included in a timely manner, his support now is imperative. I pray he will find it in his heart to provide assistance to ensure this conference is a success. This planning conference can be the salvation of Lambeth 2008, and not spell the demise of it. The Orthodox must be prepared for Lambeth 2008! |
| boggy | Posted: 2007/12/31 13:19 Updated: 2007/12/31 13:19 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/8/29 From: Posts: 167 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... The global communion is gone. Time to move on.
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| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2007/12/31 14:02 Updated: 2007/12/31 14:03 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Pray for Healing of a Fraying Mutual Trust TruthUandD, I like your handle! That is so true, and particularly poignant in these times. Your comments reveal the poor communication and confusion over this quickly assembled conference. The defensive reaction when it is brought to their attention is understandable. Great things are happening, and when we follow the Lord individually when called, the communication with others at times get caught up in the haste to do what you are called to do. As the dust settles, you realize you were not alone in being called, and others have vital portions of the calling that are necessary for the calling to come to fruition. That is how God's Plan plays out. We are only human, and we all comprehend His calling in our own way. It is always very personal, as our relationship with Him is very personal in its very nature. I explain to my children in trying times that the Lord is teaching them patience, and that His Plan will emerge in His Time, not our own. There is a time for action, and there is much to do and we must be prepared. To get there we need to get moving. Sometimes we begin by going from 0 to 100 believing He will do the steering. God then slows us down, but does not bring us to a full stop, because movement was the goal, not the breakneck speed. Sometimes we are called to begin the movement, but not called for its completion. Others are at times called for that purpose. We are on the front lines of the battle. Movement in the right direction is important. We must all realize that we are just a part of His overall plan. Some may seem more important than others, but to God they all come together for His purpose. Believing that our part of His Plan is the most important undermines our ability to meet that calling. Humility is required. Now is the time to humbly pray for His guidance as we proceed. The movement has begun. His Plan is much larger than one person, one group or one institution. Let us all come together in Christ to do His Work as He deems appropriate! May God's guidance and blessings be with us as we humbly proceed. Onward Christian soldiers! |
| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2007/12/31 14:15 Updated: 2007/12/31 14:15 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... boggy,
The global communion is NOT gone. Be careful what you pray for, you may just get it. keep your thoughts positive in these trying times. God has not given up. All is possible through our Triumvirate God! We have much to be thankful for. Our blessings far outweigh our problems, even in these trying times. Now is the time to stand up and be counted! Will we be soldiers on fire for Christ? Or will we sit back and complain that His Work cannot be done because it is too difficult? We all have a part to play in His great plan. Will you heed your calling? Be still and listen. He is calling you. There is much to do and prepare for. Let us do it with joy in our hearts as we proceed in God's Will! His Will be done. Amen. |
| otispage2 | Posted: 2007/12/31 18:48 Updated: 2007/12/31 18:48 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 615 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... The leaders of the Anglican Communion have participated in and allowed a long standing infestation of apostasy
God’s Wrath is operative when either disbelief or apostasy (a manifestation of disbelief) is the cause. This clear lesson in Romans 1:18-32 also has application in corporate entities as fully demonstrated in TEC and the Communion today. Is it any wonder that in being thrown over by God, the manifestation of His wrath is that of being thrown over to the basic sin of sexual excess of the most perverted type depicted as sodomy? Is there any question that both Scripture and Tradition sustains this judgment? The revisionists sneer at the conservatives. There is a record of meetings attempting the “reconciliation” within the then ECUSA! That reconciliation had as its objective the isolation and defeat of the orthodox, the defeat of Christianity, and the conquest of relativism with “New Age” ideals emphasizing and supporting the secular same-sex sexual revolution. The record of manipulations and lies since 1998 are established. These are established and verifiable facts! The orthodox are now convicted by the lies and manipulation of the revisionists as employed prior to and succeeding Lambeth 1998! The revisionists have dealt in bad faith to destroy the "faith once given"! They are ambitious in crucifying historical and present Christianity by substantiating it is homophobic and historically bigoted on the question of same-sex sin. If Lambeth 2008 is held with the revisionists it will be an admission by ABC to continue the “conversation” to wear down the orthodox by time and resources that favor the revisionists. The Communion as now constituted is ruptured, The Anglican Communion is a house divided and cannot stand! (Mark 3:25) ABC’s challenge is where will he cast his lot? He cannot ride two horses at Lambeth 2008 – but he will try! There is no hope for the Communion as it now stands. The schism has happened! And those who truly love God and the “faith once given” must leave and not be contaminated by the evil now propounded. The time for talk is over! A restoration of orthodoxy has not happened and will not happen in the present Communion structure dominated by TEC and Canada. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/12/31 19:08 Updated: 2007/12/31 19:08 |
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Re: Pray for Healing of a Fraying Mutual Trust Dear Fire_Ready,
Thanks for the welcome! I really appreciate the wisdom in your post too. I think your children are very lucky to have a father who gives them such wisdom. FYI, it's because of the post below from SFIF that I jumped over to the GSA blogsite last night: A further comment by Dr. Poon (quoting a rebuking email he has received from a GS Primate and apparently suggesting it was really drafted by a newly consecrated American Bishop) is at http://www.globalsouthanglican.org/index.php/weblog/comments/questions_on_gafcon [12] Posted by driver8 on 12-31-2007 at 12:31 AM So I followed driver8's suggested link, read Dr. Poon's comment and responded to it with my comment which is only about an hour-and-a-half after his comment. Then I went back to watching my movie. Movie finished. I go back to the computer. Lo and behold! Both his comment and mine have mysteriously disappeared. Luckily I was able to save it. (I do wonder whether my response comment to Dr. Poon spurred the eventual deletion of his comment and mine.) Then I go back to SFIF and see the following by driver8: I should say, unless I am mistaken, the comment I reference above at #12 seems to have been removed. Perhaps it was posted in error or haste or as the result of a misunderstanding? [14] Posted by driver8 on 12-31-2007 at 01:28 AM So this morning I click on SFIF and see that Thinking Anglicans' Simon Sarmiento saw Poon's comment just like driver8 and I did. So I attempted to post a comment on TA letting them know that I saw the very same comment by Dr. Poon and that my response to Dr. Poon was also deleted. And that anyone could read my (deleted) comment over at VOL's blog. But Thinking Anglicans is a moderated blog and my comment was never posted there after many hours of waiting. I take it that they want exclusivity for breaking this story of Poon's airing of private GS laundry in the public blogosphere. Or perhaps TA doesn't want folks to link over to VirtueOnLine. I don't know. Whatever. Onward Christian Soldiers to a Happy 2008! |
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| borgy | Posted: 2007/12/31 19:21 Updated: 2007/12/31 19:21 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2005/12/21 From: Posts: 115 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... Gene Robinson will be at Lambeth 08 invited or not. He will be all over the international media. It will be ALL GENE ROBINSON, ALL THE TIME! The orthodox in attendance will be made out to be homophobic jerks. Nothing the orthodox say or do will receive any attention. So the question is: why go?
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| Craig | Posted: 2007/12/31 21:27 Updated: 2007/12/31 21:27 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2004/6/8 From: Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 72 |
Re: Borderline Personality Church Fire_Ready,
With all due respect, LC08 is their convention. Several on this thread have suggested that those who choose Christ over the apostasy of the western Anglican church are not being true to Christ's teaching. Nonsense! Another meeting would only be to engage in more diplomacy; and, as everyone knows, the purpose of diplomacy is to prolong crisis. Bottom line? I think you put more stock in Anglicanism as an institution than as a movement of faith. Craig. |
| Craig | Posted: 2007/12/31 22:13 Updated: 2007/12/31 22:13 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2004/6/8 From: Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 72 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... Roland wrote: "For those who want to save Anglicanism, Abp. Akinola is a bigger obstacle than Bp. Robinson."
Only to the extent that Bishop Robinson is NOT the core issue. Your position appears to echo Dr. Poon's position - which are linked on another thread - that "the communion structure - with Canterbury as its focus – provides the only viable lifeline." However this position has been effectively countered on many occasions. Ephraim Radner responded to Poon, thus: "...the center of Anglicanism – an ecclesial reality whose vocation is provisional, and in service of the larger Church and world – is the lived reality of Scripture-in-Communion, the power of the Word of God shaping and transforming the lives of human beings into the image of Christ... the characteristic shared vehicle for this has been, and rightly should continue to be, the Scriptural worship of the Common Prayer tradition we have in trust, foundationally ordered by the Daily Offices and Eucharist." Craig. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2008/1/1 0:37 Updated: 2008/1/1 0:37 |
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Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... Archbishop Akinola writes to Amis: "We have dissipated so much energy and focused on TEC agenda for four years that we have not adequately discussed these matters of the greatest importance."
That is so very true. As just one tiny example of TEC's sinful distraction from the fulfillment of the Great Commission by the rest of the Communion, please see this comment from earlier this year. Which I think will happen again at Lambeth 2008 if the Orthodox Primates decide not to boycott. SITTING AT THE LORD'S TABLE: Primates explain absence at Holy Eucharist CONN/100207 A number of the Global South Primates have not shared in the Holy Eucharist today with their fellow primates. They include Abp. Peter Akinola, Abp John Chew, Abp. Benjamin Nzimbi, Abp Justice Akrofi, Abp. Henry Orombi, Abp. Gregory Venables, and Abp. Emmanuel Kolini. They represent more than 30 million faithful Anglicans. They have released this statement: "We each take the celebration of the Holy Eucharist very seriously. This deliberate action is a poignant reminder of the brokenness of the Anglican Communion. It makes clear that the torn fabric of the Church has been torn further. It is a consequence of the decision taken by our provinces to declare that our relationship with The Episcopal Church is either broken or severely impaired. Scripture teaches that before coming to sit with one another at the Lord's Table we must be reconciled. (Matthew 5:23-26 and 1 Corinthians 11:27-29) We have made repeated calls for repentance by The Episcopal Church and its leadership with no success. We continue to pray for a change of heart. We are unable to come to the Holy Table with the Presiding Bishop of The Episcopal Church because to do so would be a violation of Scriptural teaching and the traditional Anglican understanding, "Ye that do truly and earnestly repent you of your sins, and are in love and charity with your neighbours, and intend to lead a new life, following the commandments of God, and walking from henceforth in his holy ways; Draw near with faith" (Book of Common Prayer) This is a painful decision for us and also for our host and brother, the Most Rev¹d Donald Mtetemela. He understands our painful dilemma and accepts our decision. Pray for the Church." Friday, February 16, 2007 White Sands Hotel, Jangwani Beach, Tanzania |
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| DJ1943 | Posted: 2008/1/1 1:39 Updated: 2008/1/1 1:39 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/11/30 From: Ohio Posts: 240 |
Re: GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE CONFERENCE THREATENS TO SPLIT ... Gene Robinson is marrying his longtime male lover in June and no doubt he chose that date to coincide with the GAFCON meeting. What better time to draw attention to himself. Lambety 08 will be all about the homosexual issue and little else. What do they actually expect people to change their minds.
 Ain't gonna happen. Orthadox people will appear homophobic and people will leave as dissatisfied as ever. There are only 2 scenarios that can play out in all this !) the world wide communion tells TEC to get into line, or 2) they kick TEC out. Lets face it, this John Wayne, in your face philosophy by a trouser wearing ex. hippie (now the PB) may sound cool to some in TEC, but I doubt the rest of the world is all that impressed with it. |
| DJ1943 | Posted: 2008/1/1 2:21 Updated: 2008/1/1 2:21 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/11/30 From: Ohio Posts: 240 |
Re: GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE CONFERENCE THREATENS TO SPLIT ... Agenda for the 2008 Lambeth Conference,
London, England 8:00 am Opening Bible Burning Ceremony 8:15 am Nicene Creed (2008 edited version) 7:20 am TEC Presiding Bishop Schoris presentation: “The benefits of wearing the pants in the family” 7:25 am Non-religious prayer 7:45 am Ceremonial Secret Bishop Handshake 7:55 am David Beers presentation: “The Benefits of Constructive Wrath.” 8:00am Mini-Seminar - Bridal gifts for Gay couples: “Who wears pink, who wears white?” 8:15 am Gay Weddings & Civil Unions – Gene Robinson (Being held offsite at the Bike & Body Gay Bar 835 Fleet Street) 8:35 am PB Schori: Seminar Part II “If only I’d gotten my research grants, I wouldn’t have to wear this collar.” 8:40 am Time allotted for presentations by representatives of CANA, Nigeria and the Southern Cone. (Time permitting) 8:42 pm PB Schori for President of the U.S. - Cindy Sheehan and Susan Sarandon 10.00 am Roundtable discussion: “What exactly does the term “homophobic” mean?” 12:00 Lunch Baloney ala Carte 12:05 pm Collection for the Bishops “knee pads” fund 12:15 pm Presentation: "My way or the highway"– P. B. Schori 12:50 pm Writing Seminar: Topic: Effective threatening letter writing. – P. B. Schori 1:30 pm Satellite address by Bishop Duncan of the Pittsburg Diocese CANCELLED 2:00 pm Satellite address by Bishop Iker CANCELLED Satellite address by Sr. Warden from San Joaquin Diocese CANCELLED 2:50 pm TEC Schori proposes toast to the “Anything goes” party scheduled for Aug. 08 3:00 pm TEC Chancellor David Beers Presentation “The benefits of Conflict of Interests” 4:00 pm Early adjournment - Happy hour at the Bike and Body Club. |
| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2008/1/1 3:26 Updated: 2008/1/1 3:26 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... With all due respect and humility, my point still stands. The Anglican Communion is OUR communion and home.
When it comes under attack, do we simply walk away? They have come into OUR house and wish to dictate un-Christian policy! It is far easier to run from conflict. That has been their tactic. Provide conflict and watch the faithful run as they claim our resources. Those that think they will actually be "safe" by running to safer spiritual ground are mistaken. They will come for you. You feel you can run and hide in sanctuary. But they respect no sanctuary. "Run from our home, the apostates are coming!" "They are through the door, they have won! Abandon ship! Everyone to the lifeboats!" "To stay is to be contaminated! We can't possibly win! Quit and run while you still can!" Does that ring of faith or fear? Does this not display to everyone that they are most powerful, and we are simply spineless cowards, not firm enough in our faith to stand our ground? What would Jesus do? I have heard that term so many times, and it applies here as well. Would Jesus abandon His Church just because heretics entered? Would Jesus run, or would He engage? You may say we are not Jesus, but does Jesus not live within us? Is surrender without a fight really the Will of Jesus? I could understand if this were their communion, but this is OUR communion! It is the un-Christian revisionists that have entered our home! Shouldn't we give our faith every opportunity to overcome this? I humbly pray true Christians unite and see this through. May our Lord guide us. |
| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2008/1/1 4:06 Updated: 2008/1/1 4:07 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Borderline Personality Church Craig,
“With all due respect, LC08 is their convention. Several on this thread have suggested that those who choose Christ over the apostasy of the western Anglican church are not being true to Christ's teaching.” This may be true, though I have not seen it. ”Nonsense! Another meeting would only be to engage in more diplomacy; and, as everyone knows, the purpose of diplomacy is to prolong crisis.” I have been advised that Lambeth 1998 had limited success, and was undermined before and after the conference by the revisionists. That means this is OUR conference, not theirs. We dictated our will on Lambeth 1998, and can do so again, with God’s help. You confuse engagement with endless “dialog”. The time for dialog with those not really Christian is long over. It is time to clarify our communion and shine the light on the confusion perpetrated by these souls not of Christ. I am not talking about diplomacy. I am talking about clarifying the communion. What can the communion accept and agree to disagree with, and what is actually unacceptable? This is not a church issue, but a communion issue. Churches add additional clarity and compete for members. I believe we have some very basic requirements for inclusion into the communion: Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to the Father. That the way to salvation is on God’s narrow path, which cannot be widened by man. That we are all sinners, but strive for the most clear path to follow and serve the Lord. ALL sex outside of marriage between one man and one woman is a sin. That no behavior that is not blessed in scripture be held up as righteous in the eyes of the Lord. That leaders have a responsibility to provide moral clarity and those morally challenged are not up to the task of leadership. If these points are defined, all the “diplomacy” can be immediately ended. Either you are committed to the communion in this way, or you are not, and elect to walk apart. The Anglican Communion is a Christian communion. Conversation that does not fall within these parameters is inappropriate for convention conversation. That provides the clarity necessary for Lambeth 2008 to be effective and make a lasting difference. ”Bottom line? I think you put more stock in Anglicanism as an institution than as a movement of faith.” This clarity moves Anglicanism from being just another institution and ensures it becomes and remains a movement of faith! |
| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2008/1/1 4:22 Updated: 2008/1/1 4:22 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Pray for Healing of a Fraying Mutual Trust TruthUandD,
Thank you for your kind comments! I sincerely hope VOL provides you a wonderful Christian outlet for your thoughts and ideas as well as a way to receive news and information! Happy New Year! Always Faithful, Fire_Ready |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2008/1/1 16:53 Updated: 2008/1/1 16:53 |
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Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... "Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split Communion"
Upon further reflection and a deeper analysis, and with all due respect to David Virtue, the title of this post casts entirely too much blame on the conservative orthodox Anglicans who are planning and attending the GAFCON event. The blog title seemingly lays the responsiblity or blame of an AC split upon conservatives. I would contend that it's the liberal apostates and heretics of TEC and the AC who are responsible for the tearing asunder of the AC. It is the liberals' blatant apostasy and gross heresy, coupled with and enabled by a poorly performing Archbishop of Canterbury, which must be held responsible for the AC split. Conservative Anglicans were left with no choice but to plan for GAFCON 2008. Here's excerpted examples of the presenting issue that is responsible for the AC split: "The Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, Katherine Jefferts Schori, told the BBC her church is paying the price for its honesty over sexuality. The threat of schism in the Anglican Communion was prompted by the appointment of a gay bishop. The US church appointed an openly gay man Gene Robinson as a bishop in 2003. "He is certainly not alone in being a gay bishop, he's certainly not alone in being a gay partnered bishop," she said. "He is alone in being the only gay partnered bishop who's open about that status." She said other Anglican churches also have gay bishops in committed partnerships and should be open about it. "There's certainly a double standard," she told BBC Radio 4's PM programme. The church has stated it will not officially authorise such services, but Presiding Bishop Jefferts Schori admits they do take place. "Those services are happening in various places, including in the Church of England, where my understanding is that there are far more of them happening than there are in the Episcopal Church," she said. From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7166964.stm |
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| Craig | Posted: 2008/1/1 17:34 Updated: 2008/1/1 17:34 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2004/6/8 From: Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 72 |
Re: Borderline Personality Church Fire_Ready,
Your description of the need for a covenant is right on target. As you say, "This clarity moves Anglicanism from being just another institution and ensures it becomes and remains a movement of faith!" The thing I want to know, however, is why we need a palace on the Thames to remain a movement of faith? Craig. |
| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2008/1/1 18:28 Updated: 2008/1/1 18:30 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Borderline Personality Church Craig, Thank you, and God Bless you!
That is an EXCELLENT question! The Anglican Communion is a well established communion, and our roots are tied to it. Can we begin a new communion? Of course we can. And we may have to if it is God's Will to also prune the ABC, C of E and the Anglican Communion itself from the vibrant tree of life through Christ and leave a very deep scar on the earth as a testament to His Wrath. The revisionists look to gain justification, not through Christ, but through our established institutions. I believe we must make every attempt to save what has been so valuable for us. Onward Christian soldiers! Always Faithful, Fire_Ready |
| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2008/1/1 18:36 Updated: 2008/1/1 18:36 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... TruthUandD,
You make a valid point. But remember, David Virtue's responsibility is to provoke thought and comment. This post was successful in both aspects! Thank you David Virtue! |
| DJ1943 | Posted: 2008/1/2 0:21 Updated: 2008/1/2 0:21 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/11/30 From: Ohio Posts: 240 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... A couple of weeks ago VOL reported that nearly $1,000,000 a year is being spent by TEC on lawsuits yet I'm not reading anywhere where that is a concern to anyone. Puzzled
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| DJ1943 | Posted: 2008/1/2 0:45 Updated: 2008/1/2 0:58 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/11/30 From: Ohio Posts: 240 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... Fire_Ready: I used to share your views on doing battle with TEC instead of running, but I've changed my mind for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, we can't beat them. So why go through all that frustration and spend millions of dollars on something we can't win? There is no way on Gods green Earth that TEC is going to change its stand on homosexuality and it's revisionist views and neither are we. The lines have been drawn in the sand, change that, the lines are now "cut in stone," and neither of us is going to budge. Meanwhile people are starving to death.
We have come to a fork in the road and I say lets take it. TEC can self destruct anyway it wants but I refuse to give them anymore attention and free press. Besides....regardless of what we say or do, the media will portray us all as a bunch of homophobics anyway. You see, all our frustrations and anger stem from the fact that we want them to change, but it isn't going to happen, ever. It's like asking Roman Catholics, Baptists or Lutherans to embrace our beliefs. In reality, the war is already over, and even though we wanted to win, it's was a draw, and it always will be. Therefore we have no choice but to move on. Why? Because there is no turning back. |
| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2008/1/2 1:44 Updated: 2008/1/2 1:44 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... DJ1943,
I was with you then as well. Yes, Tec is lost. The homosexual agenda has permeated the leadership of the Episcopal Church. When the Prime Bishop and the majority of bishops in the Episcopal Church have become homosexual agenda appeasers or enforcers, there is nothing the lay people and congregations can do. Your comments on the Tec are right on the money. The fight right now is not for the Tec, it is for the Anglican Communion. The homosexual activists want to do the same thing to the Anglican Communion that they did to the Episcopal Church. They look for justification through the Anglican Communion, not through Christ. They desire to turn Christianity to rubble and steal all of our resources in the process. We can’t change the direction of Tec, but we can fight for the dioceses and parishes fighting to leave Tec and ensure they have a home to go to. Lambeth 2008 can have a huge impact on that. If the Orthodox win at Lambeth 2008, it becomes clear to everyone that it is Tec that has left the faith, not the Orthodox. That can only be helpful in all the lawsuits. The war for the Episcopal Church is over, but the war for the Anglican Communion is not. In the Anglican Communion we have the numbers and the effective leaders to fight and win. Although the revisionists fought to undermine Lambeth 1998, the fact is that the convention went the way of the Orthodox. This is OUR convention. There is a choice in this matter! The only question is whether we will fight now while we have the numbers and the leadership. If we just “move on” from the Anglican Communion, where do we move on to? And even after we move on, the revisionists will follow as they begin to run out of money as they will not be self sustaining. Their gluttony for our resources will be insatiable. They will have the justification of the Anglican Communion behind them. They will be even more powerful and we will be more splintered. Every time they enter our institutions, do we simply run, leaving all of our resources behind for them? How long do you think we can do this? |
| DJ1943 | Posted: 2008/1/2 14:51 Updated: 2008/1/2 15:08 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/11/30 From: Ohio Posts: 240 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... Fire_Read
Don't get me wrong, if I thought I could fight TEC on this homosexual issue and win, I would. Problem is, I also believe that we both have such opposing views on this issue, there is no turning back for either of us. Am I for fighting for our properties....ABSOLUTELY. In fact, the chuch we belong to is going to have to do just that. We won't give them the satisfaction of "stealing" our property, but we won't make it a public spectacle either. Lets face it, we'd be portrayed as malcontents and homophobics anyway. We'll proably look at this and decide how far we want to go money wise and once it gets to the point of not being practical, give them the building. It's only a building and not worth bankrupting ourselves over. We'll simply build another. Are we running away, Nah. Fighting for a principle is a good thing, but it has to have limit and know when to "cut and run." As I said before, we have become 2 entirely different camps. It's reformation time again. To be perfectly honest with you....there is no way that TEC would be able to take on the expenses of all the churches they steal. If we really want to end their tyrrany and cause them to self-implode, maybe we should all give them our properties and move on. Imagine them having to take on all that added expense. It could literally drive them out of business. There's an old saying in management, "sometimes people don't get the message until you hit them in the pocketbook." Making TEC liable for millions and millions and millions of dollars in additional expenses could be the answer. If we can't get them to change their way of "doing business," then lets create changes in the marketplace that increases their operating expenses, making it more difficult to operate. Eventually, the money is going to have to come from somewhere and with their dwindling numbers, who'se going to pay......the folks in the pews. When that happens, those folks are either going to have to pay for those bills or demand a new board of directors. So you see, there is some advantage to running away. The less than $200,000,000 million dollars in their vank account could go away very very quickly. So how do we do it. Get a concnsus (I know, aint' gonna happen, but bear with me) Have every one who is leaving, fight them in court. This uses their money and thier time. When we reach a point, pull out and say ....you win. The liberal presss, tiring of reporting on all the victories of TEC would eventually have to shift thier focus to us (to keep it newsworthy) and they'd probably start portraying us as the victims in all this. In the meantime, TEC has spent enormous amounts of money on legal fees suing everyone who are leaving plus, in the end, they had to take on more expenses for the properties they get. They have a lot of money, but with a million dollars a year in legal fees and a dwindling number of members, by the time all the different parishes and diocese leave in 2008, they could be in real financial trouble. We will never ever change the philosophy of TEC on the homosexual issue. We wouldn't be running away from anything. Their ego is what's driving them so I say let's feed it. Let them win because in the end, it's going to cost them in many many ways. Without their "host" (the church) homosexuals will have to find another venue to support them and hopefully by then, even the silent majority will have had enough of them. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2008/1/2 15:46 Updated: 2008/1/2 15:46 |
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Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... Re: Global Anglican Future Conference planned for the Holy Land in June 2008
The Anglican Bishop in Jerusalem, Bishop Suheil Dawani, has expressed his concern about the Global Anglican Future Conference planned for the Holy Land in June this year. “Regrettably, I have not been consulted about this planned conference,” said Bishop Suheil. “The first I learned of it was through a press release. “I am aware that the post-Christmas announcement that this conference is to be held here has excited considerable interest around the Anglican Communion, and has become the subject of online discussion. Yet we Anglicans who minister here have been left out in the cold. “I also note that the Archbishop of Sydney, Dr Peter Jensen, who appears to be one of the organisers, is encouraging clergy and lay people from his diocese to attend the conference with him and his bishops. He speaks of the meeting taking place because the Anglican Communion is, he says, ‘in disarray over fundamental issues of the gospel and biblical authority’. “I am deeply troubled that this meeting, of which we had no prior knowledge, will import inter-Anglican conflict into our diocese, which seeks to be a place of welcome for all Anglicans. “It could also have serious consequences for our ongoing ministry of reconciliation in this divided land. Indeed, it could further inflame tensions here. We who minister here know only too well what happens when two sides cease talking to each other. We do not want to see any further dividing walls! “I believe our Primate, Dr Mouneer Hanna Anis,is also concerned about this event. His advice to the organizers that this was not the right time or place for such a meeting was ignored.” “I urge the organizers to reconsider this conference urgently.” -------------- See my post above about the Archbishop of Canterbury conducting a secret Eucharist for gays without consulting the local bishop of London. |
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| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2008/1/2 16:38 Updated: 2008/1/2 16:47 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... DJ1943,
The interesting thing about your comment is that you think we have opposing views, when I have made it perfectly clear we agree completely on the issues you present! Let me try and clarify it better. The Tec is lost. The homosexual activists, enforcers and appeasers now are in full control of the Tec, their policies, and their polity. The battle regarding this is lost. The only thing left is to leave Tec, and that is mostly about timing. Tec will die a slow (because of the old money from those that have died and left their fortunes to a church they would no longer recognize or approve of) and painful death due to God's Wrath and leave a terrible scar where there once was God's Blessings. It is the appeasers and their congregations that will be devastated. The homosexuals are not, and never were, Christian. The destruction of the Episcopal Church to them is one of the desires they had from the beginning. They felt oppressed by the church, and this is their revenge. They rejoice in our destruction and utilizing our resources for their un-Christian agenda. Yes, their finances will eventually fail as the money dries up. I have no doubt about that. But what will they do as this begins to happen? They will follow the money! They will begin the process all over again, with the same agenda. They simply enter our new institutions, and we once again head for the hills and safer ground, and they gorge themselves on our finances and the souls not able or unwilling to move on. My belief has nothing to do with winning over the Tec from the heretics. They own it. The faithful fighters have lost. That was God's Will. But continuing to run is a form of appeasement. I think if the faithful had realized the seriousness of the aggressive homosexual issue early on, they might have fought the fight differently. But we must learn from our mistakes. Knowledge is power. We now understand what their plans really are and the repercussions of not clarifying the core of our faith, and therefore giving them the foothold they need to hijack the church and now the Anglican Communion. We can use this knowledge to counter them more effectively. We must do this at Lambeth 2008! Not to save the TEC, for it has effectively become the Tec, The episcopal cult. As the Tec continues with their lawsuits, they need the cover of the Anglican Communion for justification. They no longer have the justification of Holy Scripture or even Christianity. If they lose their standing in the Anglican Communion, they lose the power that it provides them. The lawsuits affecting the departing churches and dioceses then display that it is the Tec that has left the faith, not the departing churches. The Tec has left the congregations, not the congregations leaving the church or the faith. This does not "win over" the Tec, but prevents their cancer from growing unimpeded. It hastens their demise. It inoculates the communion from further encroachment by this activist group as well as others. This is the battle that has not been lost. It has not even yet been fought! I say this is where we fight! The consequences are just too great to continue leaving and moving on. They have aggressiveness and Satan on their side. We have the numbers, the faithful powerful leaders and our Triumvirate God on our side. If we sacrifice the Anglican Communion without a fight because they have entered another one of our institutions, where will it end? When will we EVER be in a better position, or even as good a position, as we are in right now? The answer is that things will only continue to get worse. NOW, at Lambeth 2008, is the time and the place. We CAN succeed, with God's help! I pray that our faithful leaders comprehend this, and pray for His Guidance as they proceed. He cannot guide us in His battle if we refuse to engage and simply run once again. We place this in God's Hands. But we must pray for guidance and be willing to make the sacrifices we are called upon to make. I humbly hope this sufficiently clarifies my position. When He calls us, we must listen and follow Him as Christian soldiers. We must accomplish this in His way, and not our own. If I have been too wordy, please accept my humble apology. God Bless. |
| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2008/1/2 16:57 Updated: 2008/1/2 16:57 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... TruthUandD,
I am very disturbed at the lack of coordination of this conference with those that definitely should have been an integral part of organizing GAFCON. That said, I still approve of the place and the timing of this convention. I still pray that the slighted Bishops can find it in their hearts to support GAFCON and assist in making it a resounding success. Yes, they were slighted. There was a far more effective and Christ driven way to organize this conference. I do understand, however, that when the Holy Spirit moves you, you want to get moving and heed his call. I hope the planners of GAFCON have learned a valuable lesson and humbly repent for overstepping their calling and ask forgiveness from God and humbly request assistance from the Bishops they have slighted! Let us be united in this great calling! Onward Christian soldiers! |
| Dominic | Posted: 2008/1/2 17:05 Updated: 2008/1/2 17:22 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/7/10 From: London Posts: 285 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... The 'less orthodox' of the non-liberals will attend the fiesta in the UK. They will not achieve anything, just as they have not achieved anything in the past. The liberal lunatics will continue down their path to perdition, and will do whatever they want whenever they want, regardless of either the agreements at the conference or the teaching of Scripture. Stand apart from these people. Live by Scripture. Be bold, be brave and trust in the Lord.
Place your trust not in princes and kings, or in worldly kingdoms, but in God alone and stand apart from them. How any true Christian can want to be part of such a mess or be allied by their attendance with such evil teachers of falsehood and lies I cannot imagine. It is more than time to be gone from among this bunch - for no matter how orthodox you may be you cannot change these unbelievers simply by sharing with them. They need the language of the Apocalypse and the language of Scripture spoken publicly and boldly to them - not hidden away in some meeting room - where, as we know, no-one actually has the courage to engage them with condmenation using the words of Isaiah, Paul or Peter. Place your trust in God alone, not in this shoddy 'denomination' which serves simply to perpetuate the power and the falsehoods of men. Do not be swayed by these weasel words from a man who clearly is more worried about how others may think of him and 'his diocese' than by the teaching of the true Gospel. I lost interest in what people think about me ages ago, for it does not matter one little bit. I do not seek to be liked by men, or to get the high seat at the banquets they hold. I seek only to preach my Lord, and to teach the truth of the Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ, and Him alone. What do you want? |
| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2008/1/2 19:46 Updated: 2008/1/2 19:46 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... Dominic,
“The 'less orthodox' of the non-liberals will attend the fiesta in the UK. They will not achieve anything, just as they have not achieved anything in the past. The liberal lunatics will continue down their path to perdition, and will do whatever they want whenever they want, regardless of either the agreements at the conference or the teaching of Scripture. Stand apart from these people. Live by Scripture. Be bold, be brave and trust in the Lord.” Be bold, be brave, and run from your home? How can you be brave and bold and still run from YOUR home? Exactly what is bold and brave in that? ”Place your trust not in princes and kings, or in worldly kingdoms, but in God alone and stand apart from them. How any true Christian can want to be part of such a mess or be allied by their attendance with such evil teachers of falsehood and lies I cannot imagine.” If the Anglican Communion was always this way, I would agree with you, but that is NOT the case! These degenerate activists have infiltrated OUR HOME! Our clarity has been lacking, giving them this foothold. The answer is not to “Be bold, be brave, and run away from our home!” There is nothing bold or brave in that. It is not God’s Will! Christian clarity will purge the un-believers from our communion. Yes, there are evil teachers of falsehood and lies in our midst. But this is OUR home! The objective is to purge these heretics from OUR home, not to simply appease them by running away leaving our resources and the power of the Anglican Communion behind. ”It is more than time to be gone from among this bunch - for no matter how orthodox you may be you cannot change these unbelievers simply by sharing with them. They need the language of the Apocalypse and the language of Scripture spoken publicly and boldly to them - not hidden away in some meeting room - where, as we know, no-one actually has the courage to engage them with condmenation using the words of Isaiah, Paul or Peter.” I do not want to be simply “sharing” with the unbelievers. I do not want to simply give them our buildings and institutions as a gift for their hijacking our churches and communions. I want to stop them and prevent further incursions! I want to root them out of our Anglican Communion and clarify our communion so this can never happen again! "Place your trust in God alone, not in this shoddy 'denomination' which serves simply to perpetuate the power and the falsehoods of men." AMEN!!!!! "Do not be swayed by these weasel words from a man who clearly is more worried about how others may think of him and 'his diocese' than by the teaching of the true Gospel. I lost interest in what people think about me ages ago, for it does not matter one little bit. I do not seek to be liked by men, or to get the high seat at the banquets they hold. I seek only to preach my Lord, and to teach the truth of the Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ, and Him alone." Once again, AMEN!!!!!! "What do you want?" I want to clarify OUR Anglican Communion in order to purge the cancer that has weaseled its way in. I want to fight while we have the resources and ability to do so. I do NOT want to feed the un-Christian agendas that have permeated the revisionist denominations with insatiable appetite for resources any longer! I do NOT want us to just run to safer ground and watch from a distance until they come for us once again. I say “BE BOLD! BE BRAVE! Stand and fight for what is right! Fight for the truth of Jesus Christ and His Good News! Do not run away from your home! That is not the least bit brave! Our God is all powerful! Through Him we cannot fail! But we must heed His call! If heretics entered His church, what would Jesus do? Would he simply leave his church, and appease them? Or would He engage? He would engage! Therefore, WE must engage! That does NOT mean we agree to further “dialog” with the un-Christian aggressive activists! That means we faithfully and forcefully clarify our communion in God’s Name and according to Holy Scripture! THAT is bold and brave. May we be bold and brave as we proceed in the Will of our Lord Jesus Christ. |
| DJ1943 | Posted: 2008/1/2 20:16 Updated: 2008/1/2 20:19 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/11/30 From: Ohio Posts: 240 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... Fire_Ready
Thank you for the clarification. No, I believe we're both saying the same thing just in different ways, however we are on the same page. I think none of this will be settled until TEC *(I loved your term The episcopal cult)  is exposed for exactly what it's become, a cult. I have another term for TEC "the episcopal cancer." Our government was formed using the Anglican church structure as it's model. We can impeach and throw out government officials who are inept, too bad we can't do the same thing for some church leaders as well. |
| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2008/1/2 20:24 Updated: 2008/1/2 20:24 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
Re: Global Anglican Future Conference Threatens To Split ... DJ1943,
"Our government was formed using the Anglican church structure as it's model. We can impeach and throw out government officials who are inept, too bad we can't do the same thing for some church leaders as well." Why can't we?? I say, "Let's Roll!!!!" Thank you! Whew!!!!!! |
