Exclusives : PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by Common Cause Partners
PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by Common Cause Partners
By David W. Virtue in Pittsburgh
www.virtueonline.org
9/28/2007
Anglican bishops from ten jurisdictions and organizations took their first steps toward a "new ecclesiastical structure" in North America, it was announced by Common Cause Council of Bishops in Trinity Cathedral, Pittsburgh today.
Calling it an "historic time" in the life of the Anglican Communion, the Episcopal Bishop of Pittsburgh, the Rt. Rev. Robert Duncan, chair of Common Cause, said that 51 bishops will act as a "college of bishops" representing more than 600 Anglican congregations that make up Common Cause Partners which also includes a dozen mission leaders.
"This is a significant step towards a new Anglican province that will be recognized by a number of Anglican provinces and primates which embraces Common Cause Partners with a separate ecclesiastical structure called for by the bishops in Kilgali, Rwanda," said Duncan.
"We have been told by the General Convention that we are to be engaged in ecumenical dialogue with various groups that have not had a link with Anglicans," said Ackerman.
"We are confronted with the reality that there are numerous people in North America who consider themselves to be Anglican and thus it would be contrary to our Lord's call for unity not to be engaged actively in the reunification," Ackerman continued.
The bishops laid out a timeline for the path ahead saying they have committed themselves to working together at local and regional levels agreeing to interchangeable deployment of clergy. The bishops gathered here included leaders from the Anglican Province of America, (the Most Rev. Walter Grundorf), the Reformed Episcopal Church, (Presiding Bishop Leonard Riches), the AMIA (Bishop Chuck Murphy), the head of the Canadian Anglican Network, and newly elected bishops from some 15 offshore jurisdictions in Africa, Asia and the Southern Cone now with ecclesiastical bases in North America, as well as Forward in Faith, NA.
Asked by VirtueOnline if the Archbishop of Canterbury would recognize the new structure, Duncan said he did not expect immediate recognition, but "we will make our case" to him.
"We need to go to our partner provinces first, and then talk with the Archbishop of Canterbury."
Asked why it was necessary to form a new jurisdiction, Duncan replied it was because of the drift of the church in the West. Duncan said, when he was briefly in New Orleans, he spoke directly to Dr. Williams describing two very different understandings of the church. One is guided by the Word of God incarnate and the Word of God written, which he said embodied standards of faithfulness, holiness and spiritual fruitfulness. The other defines the wholeness of the church as a matter of inclusion and diversity without reference to revelation.
CANA bishop Martyn Minns said the bishops are working together rather than fragmentmentally and this was a "testimony of our working together."
Quincy Bishop and FIFNA president Keith Ackerman pointed to the 1998 Lambeth resolution that called for the reunification of the various continuing church bodies, "that we all may be one." The Episcopal Church's General Convention subsequently passed this.
Questioned by VOL about the legal, judicial and pastoral implications for his diocese, if it should attempt to pull out of the Episcopal Church, Duncan said that the Diocese of Pittsburgh's 142nd convention pointed to a majority of the diocese wanting "realignment."
"The Episcopal Church has not provided the room for us," he said. Duncan said this diocese was founded before The Episcopal Church came into existence and that there was historic precedence for secession when in 1861 the diocese broke with federation.
"We'll find a way to go through this that brings honor and glory to God and as a witness to the world." The Episcopal Church has already resorted to the courts. "I don't think the innovating inclusive, diverse church doesn't think that is consistent with the gospel we are called to proclaim."
Ackerman said that as the Bishop of Quincy he had inherited a constitution that says, "We are a diocese in the Anglican Communion. As president of Forward in Faith North America we have officially asked for the reunification and realignment of Anglicanism."
Ackerman said the bishops' time here in Pittsburgh was spent largely on mission evangelism and the sharing of resources with which God has gifted us. "It was not a purely political time; only two sessions of six were devoted to documents relating to the next ecclesial structure. Virtually no time was given to discussing TEC and their recent meeting in New Orleans."
During his sermon in the cathedral, Duncan said that there hasn't been an Archbishop of Canterbury worth killing since 1645, citing Anglican historian Philip Jenkins.
END
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| Poster | Thread |
|---|---|
| Fisherman | Posted: 2007/9/28 18:32 Updated: 2007/9/28 18:32 |
Home away from home   Joined: 2006/8/25 From: Dallas - Province of the Southern Cone, DoFW Posts: 675 |
 Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by...Glory and Praise and Honor to the Almighty.
A lot of work ahead....... |
| deaconM | Posted: 2007/9/28 18:41 Updated: 2007/9/28 18:48 |
Just can't stay away   Joined: 2007/2/21 From: At Large Posts: 97 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Aah,
To be about who (and whose) we are and not who we arn't. May we never utter the words "Episcopal Church" again. It's all about Jesus, +/M |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/9/28 19:06 Updated: 2007/9/28 19:06 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... And while we're at it, let's toss out the phrase "Presiding Bishop," which smacks too much of TEC. Let's call our new primate what he really will be: an "Archbishop." I never want to hear "Presiding Bishop again."
Cennydd |
| venbede | Posted: 2007/9/28 19:15 Updated: 2007/9/28 19:15 |
Just popping in   Joined: 2006/11/15 From: middle Tennessee Posts: 15 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Onward and upward...
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| midwestern | Posted: 2007/9/28 19:31 Updated: 2007/9/28 19:31 |
Just popping in Joined: 2006/11/15 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... I try to limit myself to positive comments. I am glad to finally have something to say. Thank God! There is finally a group of Bishops who can speak plainly and show a way forward.
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| recchip | Posted: 2007/9/28 19:35 Updated: 2007/9/28 19:35 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/2/23 From: Fairfax Virginia Posts: 172 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Unfortunately, it looks like what I predicted over on Titus 19 is in fact true. I said that I thought that it looked like the "Orthodox" ECUSA folks would be "taking over" the work of those who remained faithful for so long and will evict them from their vineyards. The only people quoted are all ECUSA folks. (Ackerman, Duncan and Minns.) I know that Bishop Minns is "officially" CANA but for all intents and purposes, Truro is still ECUSA except for "officially." They still use the 1979 Worship Manual and are (Cana is) "open to Women's Ordination." Sounds like the same old ECUSA to me.
I would have felt more comfortable seeing a quote from either Bishop Riches or Grundorf who are NOT ECUSA and whose "Orthodoxy" is beyond question. |
| lkwells | Posted: 2007/9/28 19:47 Updated: 2007/9/28 19:47 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/2/19 From: Posts: 607 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... RECCHIP: You are correct in your instinct that this is just ECUSA 2.0 (ECUSA minus VGR). If you saw the live broadcast on SFIF, Grundorf and Riches were indeed interviewed. Their faces were bathed in smiles for the photo-op and they seemed to fit right in.
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| cjanning | Posted: 2007/9/28 19:51 Updated: 2007/9/28 19:51 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/12/19 From: Deep East Texas Posts: 279 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... I wonder how Ms. Schori and her advisors will spin this to the news media...
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| Lutheran | Posted: 2007/9/28 20:11 Updated: 2007/9/28 20:11 |
Just popping in Joined: 2007/1/4 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... I have as an outsider followed the travails of TEC with interest and prayer. It has been heartening to see so many orthodox Christians try to bring their beloved Church back into the fold.
I have one general question that seems critical to me and not very often addressed. Where will the orthodox anglicans end up on the issue of women's ordination? The denial of the Word of God that leads to homosexual ordination and same sex marriages started in earnest in our churches with the ordination of women. If you accept women's ordination failure to accept homosexual ordination is pure bigotry. The arguments in favor of both are the same (i.e. scripture is normed by culture and not culture by scripture). Are the posters here generally committed to a scriptural and orthodox church that rightly only puts men in the office? What about congregations generally? Where are the conservative Anglican bodies (i.e. third world) on this issue? I am not trying to stir up trouble, but it seems to me this issue is critical. Just as a clarification, I do not see it as critical because of some personal bugaboo about female priests. Rather, scripture is clear on this issue. Only by denying God's word can one accept female priests. No church that denies God's word will survive as a church. One of my older parishioners told me today that in my lifetime my church body would start having female pastors. I think the opposite is true. The tide has turned. The small minority of churches that allow for a female pastorate will get progressively smaller and this will cease to be an big issue over the next twenty or thirty years. The devil will I am sure find some other way to beguile and undermine the church. Oh well sorry that what started as a short question turned into a lengthy rant. May the blessings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be upon you all. Remember we are not the rich men who seek answers in worldly finery and signs, but rather those who rely in the help of the Lord, Lazaruses who sores are coverd by His righteousness. |
| DomWalk | Posted: 2007/9/28 20:15 Updated: 2007/9/28 20:16 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/6/9 From: Left Coast, USA Posts: 619 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... This is momentous, ankle biting notwithstanding.
CC has declared, I believe, the intention to use the 1662 BCP, which is great news. Now the interesting part, the hammering out of the doctrinal and ecclesiastical guidelines. What will make it in? No WO? Adherence to the BCP, including the ordinal and the 39 Articles? Classical Anglican tenets regarding the creeds and the councils? Let's pray for wisdom for the college of bishops, and for the revival of true Anglicanism in the USA! Quote: During his sermon in the cathedral, Duncan said that there hasn't been an Archbishop of Canterbury worth killing since 1645, citing Anglican historian Philip Jenkins. Zing! ----- |
| PB1928US | Posted: 2007/9/28 20:23 Updated: 2007/9/28 20:23 |
Not too shy to talk   Joined: 2007/9/6 From: Posts: 40 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Not to be a wet blanket BUT...many questions go unanswered. 1) What is so common and what is the cause? It seems to be only the sexuality issue. 2) The Federation, which includes ACA, seems to be more of an orthodox body, some of whom are part of Common Cause. What is their future? 3) Anyone else very suspicious of Bishop Duncan? I'm sure he would like nothing more than to be recognized by Canterbury. Peter Toon recently committed to an educational endeavor geared towards Bishop Duncan regarding the 1662 prayer book which he apparently agreed to as doctrine along with the others in common cause. I believe Grundorf and Riches understand what they agreed too. I think Duncan sees it as a means to an end. The current Mandate goes into more detail. 4) The continuing churches are Anglican. Who is Ackerman talking about when he says they need to engage in dialogue with "various groups that have not had a link with Anglicans?" 5) where are the lay people? I for one will continue to wait for an orthodox body in North America. I agree this is ECUSA 2. We need to reach out to the TAC/ACA through the Federation. Am I really reading that we agreed to join forces with those that embrace Women's ordination and the 1979 Alternate book of Services? These are the very things that spurred the creation of the continuing anglican bodies in the first place!
 Lex Orandi Lex Credendi |
| DomWalk | Posted: 2007/9/28 20:28 Updated: 2007/9/28 20:40 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/6/9 From: Left Coast, USA Posts: 619 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Howdy Lutheran!
It's not just that Scripture is clear -- and in fact very intelligent and otherwise "orthodox" folks (who, by the way, are often spousally compromised on the issue), argue quite well from scripture that it's not crystal clear on the matter of WO. I disagree, but even I think there is some wiggle room (unlike for sexuality). It's that the other two pilars, Tradition and Reason, have also militated against WO for 2000 years. One hopes that many of those in the CC who, for whatever reason, did not initially oppose WO have, after seeing the reality of Robinson and Schori, come to the conclusion that the innovation of WO is an unmitigated disaster for the church, and have renewed insight into the wisdom of submitting oneself to the three pillars. If WO remains in vigor, this new structure will crumble, if it even gets built. Unfortunately, I disagree regarding the number of churches ordaining women. Not one has reversed course, have they? And those that do WO have seen a consistent increase in the proportion of women in seminaries, so that females now actually make up the majority of students in some denominations, like the PCUSA (if I'm not mistaken). It will take a generation for this to work itself out. The self-centered boomers still hold sway. ----- |
| rmadry | Posted: 2007/9/28 20:32 Updated: 2007/9/28 20:32 |
Just popping in Joined: 2005/1/12 From: Posts: 8 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Yes, a lot of work to be done, but it is past time to shake the dust off our boots and be done with the heretics and apostates.
Leave them to their own. |
| PB1928US | Posted: 2007/9/28 20:36 Updated: 2007/9/28 20:36 |
Not too shy to talk Joined: 2007/9/6 From: Posts: 40 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Rmadry,
We will need to wait and see if we are "done with the heretics and apostates." Lex Orandi Lex Credendi |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/9/28 20:47 Updated: 2007/9/28 20:47 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Don't be too sure that we'll continue to use the 1979 BCP. They're talking about a version of the 1662 BCP. Good move!
Cennydd |
| recchip | Posted: 2007/9/28 21:26 Updated: 2007/9/28 21:26 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/2/23 From: Fairfax Virginia Posts: 172 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... If it is the "Green Book" which Toon did for AMiA then there are problems there as well.
For example: In the confession (Morning and Evening Prayer) it says "There is no "wholeness" in us." The 1928 (and 1662) both say "There is no "Health" in us." That is a major theological difference. Of course sin means we are not whole spiritually but our sins also cause us to suffer physical "lack of health" as a consequence of sin. |
| Sagamore | Posted: 2007/9/28 21:32 Updated: 2007/9/28 21:32 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2007/9/10 From: Posts: 137 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... "If you accept women's ordination failure to accept homosexual ordination is pure bigotry. The arguments in favor of both are the same (i.e. scripture is normed by culture and not culture by scripture)."
Exactly! Female ordination, especially the consecration of female bishops, in so far as it endangers the survival of the apostolic line, I think is far worse than what is going on with the homosexual issues. Indeed, sacramental validity aside, it is more or less a homosexual matter to see a woman trying to act in the person of Christ at the altar, or being the "father" of the parish family. One thing I have noticed at my own TEC parish though is that most Episcopalians-the typical pew sitter-is almost entirely uneducated about the ins-and-outs of the arguments for and against female ordination. There just seems to be a sort of attitude of, well, all these people higher up know more than me, so it must be OK. If they're of the younger generations, then it is also the almighty modern philosophical doctrine of "whatever" at work. For that matter, I've found the typical Episcopalian, compared to most other denominations, is pretty ignorant of religion and theology in general. I think this is a large reason why TEC's leadership has been allowed to get away with what it has. Certainly, the leadership in my own diocese and parish both make no effort at all to educate people to allow them to make informed decisions on these controverisal issues, that's for sure. Not to say that this is any excuse though. Individuals should, needless to say, take God more seriously than this and make an effort for themselves. |
| gartenfrau | Posted: 2007/9/28 22:09 Updated: 2007/9/28 22:09 |
Just popping in Joined: 2007/4/25 From: Posts: 4 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Sagamore, you just described my mother to a "T". I've tried to discuss what was happening in TEc and she prefers to be ignorant and becomes hostile when you point out how people like the Sponge contradict everything Christian. As long as she can sit happily in her pew each Sunday her spiritual life is fine. I think many of the elderly at her church are like this. I now understand why Bible study was never even mentioned while I was growing up...you'd become knowledgeable and begin questioning the leadership.
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| lkwells | Posted: 2007/9/28 22:13 Updated: 2007/9/28 22:13 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/2/19 From: Posts: 607 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Lutheran, I hope you will post here frequently, for the point you are making is an urgent one. The neo-Anglican movement will quickly dissipate, for it fails to grasp the close linkage between all that is represented in VGR and the modernism established by GC-76 Minneapolis. As long as unisex liturgies and priestesses are tolerated, the protest over sexual morality is meaningless and hypocritical.
When ECUSA decided (in the face of Scripture, tradition, and universal consent) that the sexuality of a priest is unimportant, it decided by inference that the sexuality of one's bed-partner is likewise unimportant. Those who tolerate priestesses while rejecting VGR as a bishop really owe the poor man an apology for their inconsistency. |
| lkwells | Posted: 2007/9/28 22:28 Updated: 2007/9/28 22:28 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/2/19 From: Posts: 607 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... "Don't be too sure that we'll continue to use the 1979 BCP. They're talking about a version of the 1662 BCP. Good move!"
Cennydd, while editing and producing a new BCP might be a good move, it would be an enormously time-consuming and expensive project. The amount of $$$ which went into the production of the 1979 thing (I cannot call it a Prayer Book) was staggering, even before each local parish faced the cost of equipping all pews with the new book. Is this really a priority? As RECCHIP correctly points out, a re-write into "modern language" (so-called, it's really Toonese dialect) opens up the cracks to theological error, and RECCHIP has already spotted one example. There are indeed others. This is a bad idea all around. Knowing my CC brethren as I do, I suspect there would be pressures to start making all sorts of changes. Where to put the Gloria in excelsis? Add "holy" to the marks of the Church in the Nicene Creed? What about the filioque? How about the epiclesis? Then it's katey-bar-the-door for a tedious and unprofitable Prayer Book revision controversy. Someone once said, If it's not necessary to change, then it is very necessary not to change. 1928 BCP is just fine; in fact it will be the defining line for true Anglican orthodoxy. |
| sentinel | Posted: 2007/9/28 22:41 Updated: 2007/9/28 22:41 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/6/11 From: Posts: 263 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... "Asked by VirtueOnline if the Archbishop of Canterbury would recognize the new structure, Duncan said he did not expect immediate recognition, but "we will make our case" to him."
Why? What worth is there to remaining in the Anglican Communion while heresy is tolerated? I am not sure how to take all of this. There is still some outstanding issues that need to be resolved. WO, liturgies, etc need to be thoroughly dicussed before unity can be a serious discussion. I do desire to see a new Biblically orthodox body in the US but If these issues are not resolved, this will turn into a mess. |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2007/9/29 0:03 Updated: 2007/9/29 0:10 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... From the little bit I've heard from a handful of principals, there is among the ECUSAn remnant a dawning realization the 1979 Book of Common Heresies was, in fact, a species of misdirection. This was stated in specific reference to the "baptismal covenant" but would, one might assume, carry over to the other obvious "bait and switch" examples in that wretched book of lies.
Praise God that minds and souls are being opened to the truth! As to the Gloria etc... I really cannot in any circumstance imagine our Lord damning us for errors of sequence, syntax, or grammar. Had Christ wanted us to use a precise language and liturgy, one might suppose he would have ordained it. On the other hand, human reason can observe that the 1662 BCP coincided with an explosion of Godliness throughout the English-speaking world. Given our meager means of human discernment (i.e., "spiritual regression analysis"), a case can be made for reversion to the mean of the 1662 simply on the basis of "GO WITH WHAT WORKS". The 1662 and the King James bible were the standard for the last time of a united English-speaking Christendom. Whatever their flaws (and I do not subscribe to the ideological basis of most of the criticism), THEY WORK. How? Why? Only God knows. But they do in fact confer blessings on those that use them as worship helps. That's good enough for me. And seemingly also for Duncan etal who are presently reconsidering their 1970s vintage prejudices. PRAISE YE THE LORD! JotM |
| ZachD | Posted: 2007/9/29 0:07 Updated: 2007/9/29 0:22 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1791 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... The Lord's Name be Praised!
Yes, Joe, this Cannuck knows the language, too. The BCP remains firmly placed within my memory banks. Occasionally when visiting a traditional and godly parish, I get looks of amaze coming my way as I participate freely and verbally in the 1962 Eucharist service - with empty hands! And yes, we are far from through the tangled mess that we are newly seeing unfold before our eyes. WO gets little support here, but what this troubled spot shows, it that structurally, ecclesiastically, and authoritatively, we've got lots of trouble. Add to this the dismay of the unaware middle - and how this will be interpreted in that camp - makes my head spin! The minions of evil will be charged with the task of promoting confusion, fear, and angst, in all rank and file. This will be spiritually milked for all it's worth, guaranteed. A man-made debacle of sin and rebellion; and torn fabric, to boot! We gotta be on our knees, pleading God for mercy. GOOD NEWS on this Province, though. I've got a ring-side seat! |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2007/9/29 0:07 Updated: 2007/9/29 0:07 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... There is a legal theory that recognition by Cantuar will be useful in property suits, i.e., that the parish/diocese is fulfilling its trust obligation to the Anglican Communion.
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| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/9/29 1:56 Updated: 2007/9/29 1:56 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... I've listened to arguments pro and con with the Prayer Book issue, and I've reached the conclusion that the 1979 Book will probably be on its way out following the official creation of the new province.
It does have some minor good points, but either the 1662 or 1928 books are much more preferable. We can argue about the best points of each after we get the new province up and running, and therefore, I think it best to get the show on the road first. As for women's ordination, I think it may be on its way out, but it isn't going to happen all at once. My opinion, of course. I think....I hope....that we've all learned our lesson by now that this issue has been a Church-wrecker, and something must be done about it. If not, we could face trouble later. It's best to nip it in the bud as soon as possible. Cennydd |
| Yo-Am | Posted: 2007/9/29 2:22 Updated: 2007/9/29 2:22 |
Not too shy to talk Joined: 2006/8/20 From: Posts: 24 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... I hope you are right about women's ordination Cennydd. We know REC and APA are opposed, along with 3 of the 4 TEC dioceses planning to join. And I know that some parishes in the Pittsburgh diocese are opposed as well. So in terms of the overall numbers in this new body what percentage would be against ordaining women? I pray that Bishop Duncan realizes that the success of this venture will depend on giving up this practice...
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| Fisherman | Posted: 2007/9/29 8:02 Updated: 2007/9/29 8:02 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/8/25 From: Dallas - Province of the Southern Cone, DoFW Posts: 675 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Item 6 of the Theological Statement of the Common Cause Partners:
“We receive The Book of Common Prayer as set forth by the Church of England in 1662, together with the Ordinal attached to the same, as a standard for Anglican doctrine and discipline, and, with the Books which preceded it, as the standard for the Anglican tradition of worship.” Item 7: ‘We receive the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion of 1562, taken in their literal and grammatical sense, as expressing the Anglican response to certain doctrinal issues controverted at that time, and as expressing the fundamental principles of authentic Anglican belief.” Still a way to a constitutional convention. |
| Fisherman | Posted: 2007/9/29 8:17 Updated: 2007/9/29 8:28 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/8/25 From: Dallas - Province of the Southern Cone, DoFW Posts: 675 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... There were definitely 7, by name, (possibly 8 according to the photo http://tinyurl.com/2dtju4 ) TEC dioceses represented by their incumbent bishops in Pittsburgh this week as best I can tell at this point.
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| Butch | Posted: 2007/9/29 11:37 Updated: 2007/9/29 11:37 |
Just popping in Joined: 2004/2/14 From: Posts: 16 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... This is, of course, wonderful news and what so many of us have been waiting for. The issue of Canterbury's recognition is almost irrelevant. They will move ahead with or without it. And the Prayer Book matter will be worked out. But other questions are raised. Will this new structure be just a rehash of TEC minus the heresy? Will this clergy-driven movement have any room for the laity or will they be kept out of the decision-making process? Will the ordination of women continue and, thus, hinder dialogue with the Catholic and Orthodox churches? It will be interesting to see what happens.
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| Fisherman | Posted: 2007/9/29 13:22 Updated: 2007/9/29 13:33 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/8/25 From: Dallas - Province of the Southern Cone, DoFW Posts: 675 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... See Article 4 of the new structure posted earlier: The Leadership Council: The governing body of the CCP shall be the Leadership Council.
“2. The Leadership Council consists of the chief officer of each Partner, plus one member of the clergy (in whatever order) and one lay person from each Partner. The Leadership Council shall elect annually the Moderator of the Partnership from among the chief officers of the Partners. The General Secretary and Treasurer shall be elected annually by the Leadership Council from among its clerical and lay members.” |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/9/29 15:52 Updated: 2007/9/29 16:13 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Butch, I think most of us are as concerned as you are with regard to the laity being part of the decision-making process, which has been a hallmark of the American Church from its very beginning. Unfortunately, democracy in a Church also has its drawbacks, as we've seen in the past few years, and by this I mean that special interest groups such as Integrity and Claiming the Blessing have been able to exert a grossly undue influence upon the Church via the democratic process.
As a result, they have contributed greatly to the destruction of what was once a great and highly-respected Church, and The Episcopal Church isn't the only body affected by this, as we all are well-aware. The problem is how to correct this situation, and I don't think there is any easy answer to that question. The alternative is governance from the top down in the manner of the Vatican, and I don't think we want that, either. Perhaps somewhere in between. Cennydd |
| Sagamore | Posted: 2007/9/29 16:23 Updated: 2007/9/29 16:23 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2007/9/10 From: Posts: 137 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... "Will the ordination of women continue and, thus, hinder dialogue with the Catholic and Orthodox churches?"
Unless you're ready to accept Papal infallibility then there is no dialogue with the RCC. If you can accept, it then you might as well just join it now, if you can't, then there is nowhere to go with them. They do not consider it a debatable issue, and that is precisely why they don't participate in the World Council of Churches. Many RCs even consider this doctrine the defining belief of true Christianity, even more than the Eucharist or anything else. |
| cjanning | Posted: 2007/9/29 20:11 Updated: 2007/9/29 20:16 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/12/19 From: Deep East Texas Posts: 279 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Sagamore, the "Doctrine of Papal Infallibility" is quite limited. Only when the Pope, speaking from the "Chair of St. Peter" making a "de fide" (of the faith) pronouncement on faith and morals is such a pronouncement considered "infallible". The logic here is that the Holy Spirit would not allow the Primate of the "one true Church" to speak in error on matters of faith and/or morals. The concept of "Papal Infallibility" itself is rather recent, dating back, I believe, only to the 19th century.
Historically, enough Popes have been involved in enough heresies however, that the "Doctrine of Papal Infallibility" has pretty well been shot apart by many Roman Catholic theologians. The logical presumption is that if Popes speak infallibly in matters of faith and morals, then Popes always have done so (not just since the doctrine was promulgated). If it can be shown that just one Pope did not, the thesis of Papal infallibility is then disproved. |
| Sodslaw | Posted: 2007/9/29 23:19 Updated: 2007/9/29 23:19 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/8/3 From: Orthodox Bunker Posts: 343 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... I noticed that David Virtue has been in Pittsburg and in New Orleans to bring us first hand news coverage. This has been expensive no doubt. My check is in the mail to him, maybe we can all send an early thanksgiving and keep this valuable ministry alive! Thank you David!
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| Sagamore | Posted: 2007/9/30 2:48 Updated: 2007/9/30 2:48 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2007/9/10 From: Posts: 137 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... "Sagamore, the "Doctrine of Papal Infallibility" is quite limited. Only when the Pope, speaking from the "Chair of St. Peter" making a "de fide" (of the faith) pronouncement on faith and morals is such a pronouncement considered "infallible". The logic here is that the Holy Spirit would not allow the Primate of the "one true Church" to speak in error on matters of faith and/or morals. The concept of "Papal Infallibility" itself is rather recent, dating back, I believe, only to the 19th century."
I'm well aware of all that. Bear in mind, to begin with, that you will have a very hard time getting RCs, even those who fervently believe this doctrine, to explain precisely how it works. The wording of the Vatican I Council, where this doctrine was first promulgated (and it's all the RCC has firmly said on it so far), is simply that the Pope is "preserved from error". The vast majority of RC believers today will tell you this is because the Pope's pronouncements must invariably agree to eternal truths, and are thus a form of revelation, or at least represent access to a deep and special spiritual knowledge of some kind. This view is the one most popular RC apologists push and is what is generally upheld as the "official" teaching by most of the RCC leadership. But Pope John XXII, in Quia Quorundam, stated that, no, the Pope is only infallible by right of the authority given him by the "key of power", that is, the power given to St. Peter to bind and loose (ie - he is always right because his word is law), and does not stem at all from the "key of knowledge", that is, access to any special insight on the objective truth. So any Papal decree is, thus, also reformable, which is the main point John XXII made quite clear. Get it? No? Good! 'Cause neither do I! :) "Historically, enough Popes have been involved in enough heresies however, that the "Doctrine of Papal Infallibility" has pretty well been shot apart by many Roman Catholic theologians. The logical presumption is that if Popes speak infallibly in matters of faith and morals, then Popes always have done so (not just since the doctrine was promulgated). If it can be shown that just one Pope did not, the thesis of Papal infallibility is then disproved." Brother, don't try to apply logic to any of this. Trust me when I tell you that it defies it handily. Even by the standard you give, then what is the official teaching of the RCC in the two cases (among countless) of discordance I gave in my last post? And whatever you could say, no matter how well reasoned, is still no more than your own personal opinion, as it would be with any RC you might ask. This is exactly why, as I said before, RCs are the only Christians who don't argue over what it is their church *should* teach, but instead argue about what it is it actually *does* teach. The really funny part is that RCs usually defend the divine need for papal infallibility by saying that without such an official statement of position, you end up like them dastardly Protestants, with all their varying individual interpretations. But what good is such an official statement when it itself is open to endless individual interpretation? Now, you can try to show die hard RCs the illogic of all this all you want and you'll have about as much luck as trying to teach your goldfish to recite Virgil. Believe me, I've tried. Even most who will agree it's illogical are still so brainwashed they still think it's somehow OK because it's the church, as if boldfaced lying has any place in speaking the Gospel truth. Until there is literally some kind of coup de tat in the Vatican, the RCC is a lost cause as far as meaningful ecumenicism goes. |
| Sagamore | Posted: 2007/9/30 3:06 Updated: 2007/9/30 3:06 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2007/9/10 From: Posts: 137 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Oops, the "last post" I refered to in my previous post was in another thread, but I was discussing whether the RCC's "official" teaching is what is stated in Unam Sanctum, that no non-RCs, not even the Eastern Orthodox, can be saved, or is it that such a view represents the condemnable heresy of Feeneyism? Is it what the Pope stated in the Syllabus of Errors, that all RCs are bound to work and fight to make the RCC the one established religion of any nation they live in, or is it what is said by the Vatican II Council, that RCs must respect and protect the freedom of full religious expression of all faiths? Unam Sanctum and the Syllabus of Errors were both clearly instances of popes stating their official teaching on matters of faith and morals, yet the RCC (largely, anyway) claims to hold precisely opposite doctrines, while simultaneously still saying that popes cannot be wrong when formulating such teachings. And there are literally COUNTLESS other instances of this sort of thing. Go figure...
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| dvirtue | Posted: 2007/9/30 13:18 Updated: 2007/9/30 13:18 |
Webmaster  Joined: 2004/1/2 From: Posts: 175 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... Thank you so much for this endorsement. I truly and deeply appreciate it. There is more running around to be done, as a result I have been lax in asking for financial support. There are just so many hours in a day, and the hours at airports, in the air and driving is both exhausting and time consuming. Funds ARE low, but I won't let that stop me. I am grateful for any support readers of VOL might give. It is one of the encouragements of this work and ministry.
Warmly in Christ, David |
| RichHooker | Posted: 2007/10/1 19:41 Updated: 2007/10/1 19:41 |
Just popping in Joined: 2006/11/22 From: Posts: 4 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... I agree that the TEC members are dominating Common Cause and are not interested in including those of certain continuing jurisdictions. While it is great that the REC and APA were represented, other continuing jurisdictions were specifically uninvited. If all of us traditional
Anglicans cannot get together during this critical time in our history we are looking at a possible repeat of 1977. |
| aterry | Posted: 2007/10/2 0:08 Updated: 2007/10/2 0:08 |
Quite a regular   Joined: 2006/6/19 From: Virginia Posts: 54 |
 Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by...This is certainly history in the making, and I believe it may bring us to the point where there is a recognized orthodox Anglican provence here. I suspect that it will exist in parallel to TEC though.
Pax Deus |
| polyphemos | Posted: 2007/10/2 17:36 Updated: 2007/10/2 17:36 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/6/29 From: και Θηος δη μεχανη Posts: 630 |
New Ecclesiastical Structure .
OK. As they say in Texas Hold'em, I'm "all in." I will play these COMMON cards. I'm a Duncan Do-nut. Can somebody tell me how to get to a participating parish in or near Columbia, SC? Hope they like black labs.  polyphemos |
| Hesychios | Posted: 2007/10/6 15:17 Updated: 2007/10/6 15:17 |
Not too shy to talk  Joined: 2007/4/1 From: Posts: 30 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... "As long as she can sit happily in her pew each Sunday her spiritual life is fine. I think many of the elderly at her church are like this. I now understand why Bible study was never even mentioned while I was growing up...you'd become knowledgeable and begin questioning the leadership."
I do believe this is how the English were able to endure the pull from Rome, then back to Rome, then away from Rome once again. They kept their heads down, and firmly planted on their necks! From what I have observed the liturgical-spiritual life of an Anglican is pretty fulfilling in itself but not necessarily connected with, or dependant upon the goings-on at the cathedral chapter (or beyond). But there is something else at play here, when it comes to the elderly. They have lived their whole lives faithfully (according to what they can know) in at most two or three small parishes, and they want to finish out their lives without a lot of soul-searching and second-guessing. They want surety and stability, and they want to be buried out of the olde family kirk, not a rented high-school theatre hall. Perhaps now the Episcopal church has changed too much, perhaps now it is trafficking in illusions. If that is so, they might just buy into that illusion for a little while longer... Hes |
| Hesychios | Posted: 2007/10/6 16:13 Updated: 2007/10/6 16:13 |
Not too shy to talk Joined: 2007/4/1 From: Posts: 30 |
Re: PITTSBURGH: New Ecclesiastical Structure Announced by... "The alternative is governance from the top down in the manner of the Vatican, and I don't think we want that, either. Perhaps somewhere in between."
Look to the East for your model. It has worked for two thousand years without a Pope in control. Being in communion with a bishop of Rome is not the same as being in submission to one. Holy Orthodoxy was able to be in communion with Rome for one thousand years until the Gregorian Reform and a rise in Papal pretensions (the same pretensions which contributed to the bust-up of western Christianity some five centuries later). The conciliar model really does work when it has not been shot through with innovation and compromise. Holy Orthodoxy has proven this, and even the non-Chalcedonians have demonstrated a similar natural conservatism. These are deeply rooted historically Apostolic churches. Although these two communions have been separated from each other since the mid-fifth century over just ONE issue (which may have been more of a cultural-linguistic problem than one of heresy), neither communion has innovated theology beyond that point and all of the particular churches in either eastern communion have a glorious and respectful liturgy! They have accomplished this without any sort of Vatican central office, in fact they have done a better job at preserving liturgy, theology and order than the Vatican has even in the face of bitter persecution and mass-murder. And they are weathering the modern cultural storm, the materialist and consumerist age quite a bit better as well. The Anglican communion, as it is reconstituted, could be like this. But perhaps it never will... Something to think about. Something to pray over. Hes |
