ANGLO-CATHOLICS FACE ISOLATION AND DEMONIZATION
News Analysis
By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
8/14/2007
Anglo-Catholicism or "High" Church Anglicanism is facing extreme isolation and demonization, as the movement finds itself marginalized by the American Episcopal Church on the one hand and the Roman Catholic Church on the other.
The term "High Church" was first applied in the late seventeenth century to those individuals who were opposed to the Puritan wing of the Church of England. It is also called the "Oxford Movement." Later, in the nineteenth century, it was applied to the Anglo-Catholic or Tractarian movement in England from 1833 going forward. The best-known members of the High Church/Anglo-Catholic Movement were John Henry Newman, who converted to the Roman Catholic Church, John Keble, who remained in the Church of England, and Edward Bouverie Pusey.
As a distinct sub-group or branch of Anglicanism it came to prominence in the Church of England during the Victorian era and enjoyed widespread influence. The Oxford Movement, as it became known, was aimed at restoring High Church principles. Over the years many Anglo-Catholics gravitated to Rome following Newman, but most have lived uneasily if not painfully within the Anglican fold.
Their exact numbers are unknown but they are strong in England, parts of Africa, especially Central Africa, and the Caribbean. Pockets of Anglo-Catholics can be found among larger Evangelical constituencies and broad-church Anglicans throughout the Anglican Communion. They are often referred to as traditionalists and practice their faith with great solemnity and concern for catholic form.
They are, for the most part, intellectuals, high churchman who occasionally get taunted by Protestant Evangelical Anglicans for their "'smells and bells"' approach to the faith. They harbor an inordinate number of homosexuals some of whom live celibately, but many do not. Those that do live out the lifestyle do not flaunt their homoerotic behavior in the manner of such extrovert homosexuals as revisionist New Hampshire Bishop V. Gene Robinson. They deplore public displays of sexual expression and, for the most part, live quietly. While they pose no threat to the order and discipline of the church, their lack of evangelistic zeal which they often deride as "happy clappy" has not endeared their exercise of faith to a wider public. They oppose the ordination of women at all levels of the church and oppose (in principle) sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman.
While some do use the Catholic Missal many also use the Anglican Missal produced by the Oxford Movement. They are devout, godly, and are fiercely determined to maintain the traditions of the church against what they perceive as a prevailing culture of low (Protestant) churchmanship.
Anglo-Catholicism should not be confused with Affirming Catholicism, a movement led by the present Archbishop of Canterbury Dr. Rowan Williams and its American patron, Frank T. Griswold. This movement is inclusive of women to all levels of the church including the episcopacy as well as affirming of homosexuality if practiced within the realm of commitment. They regard themselves as reforming Catholics.
Today Anglo-Catholics around the world, but especially in the U.S. face isolation and demonization. Their ranks are rapidly diminishing. Within The Episcopal Church, they are a persecuted minority. Their views on women are deemed misogynistic and their views on the Book of Common Prayer (1662 or 1929) seen as out of touch with present realities.
In a number of dioceses their priests are not welcome. In at least one diocese, Long Island, there has been an all out bitter campaign by its bishop, Orris Walker, to harass and throw Anglo-Catholics out of the diocese. (This reporter sat with one such priest who recounted horror stories of the ways he and his fellow Anglo-Catholics suffered at the hands of this bishop. He subsequently fled to Rome.)
The truth is they are aging. Many of their churches are not drawing a new generation into the church. They are fighting an uphill battle with western culture that has accepted pluralism and diversity as the hallmark of the age. Anglo-Catholics have united under the banner of Forward in Faith International and number some of the finest theological minds in the world today.
Now, more than 160 years later, Anglo-Catholics find themselves in danger of extinction. Within The Episcopal Church there are three remaining Anglo-Catholic dioceses - Ft. Worth, Quincy and San Joaquin. Other dioceses like Springfield, Pittsburgh and the Rio Grande are very sympathetic towards them, but as they support the ordination of women they cannot strictly be called Anglo-Catholic.
One diocese - San Joaquin - is weighing its future in The Episcopal Church. Come December they will vote to stay or leave. The outcome of this vote may see the diocese leave the Episcopal Church in its entirety except for those individual parishes wishing to remain or leave for another jurisdiction. If the diocese leaves as a body it will be of historic import. The Bishop, John-David Schofield, has already been threatened by Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori should he try to cede the diocese from TEC.
Should any of the other Anglo-Catholic bishops and their dioceses decide to follow his example, there is little doubt that major civil action will result. It will be a huge public relations disaster, but it could also be the end of the Anglo-Catholic movement in The Episcopal Church. While Anglo-Catholic pockets of resistance can still be found in liberal and conservative dioceses, most are either leaving for greener ecclesiastical and spiritual pastures, or will leave after the Sept. 30 deadline set for the Episcopal Church to conform to the Windsor Report.
One bishop, Clarence C. Pope, Jr., (former Bishop of Ft. Worth) who has made three pilgrimages in and out of the Episcopal Church to Rome, and who recently announced he was crossing the Tiber again, told a news magazine that the Catholic movement in The Episcopal Church has degenerated from a theological imperative into haberdashery.
"The [Anglo] Catholic movement, which has been part of Anglicanism from the time of the Elizabethan Settlement, has gradually dissipated until we are left with lots of 'catholic' vestments worn in areas of The Episcopal Church where 'low church' used to be the order of the day," he said. The culprit, in what he believes to be the death of Anglo-Catholicism, is the usurpation of powers and prerogatives by General Convention. Bishop Pope argued that over the past generation, the "vote" in General Convention had led to the triumph of "political correctness" over sound doctrine.
He also said that the vision of corporate reunion "put forth by Pope Paul VI and Archbishop [of Canterbury Michael] Ramsey can now never be realized." The [Anglo] Catholic movement he said is at an end.
"General Conventions are not General Councils but they have come to behave as such," he said. "Doctrinal changes concerning holy matrimony, holy orders, and matters of sexual morality have put The Episcopal Church outside the limits of the Vincentia Canon, and marginalize everyone within it from the Catholic world."
He characterized his move to Rome not as a rejection of Anglicanism but as a culmination of a spiritual journey. The same might be said for the Rt. Rev. Daniel Herzog, the former Bishop of Albany, who announced after his retirement that he was returning to the Roman Catholic Church.
Any way you look at it, the move to Rome is a sweeping rejection by Anglo-Catholics of low-church Anglicanism particularly in the US. There are also some Evangelicals moving to Rome who have discovered "Low" Roman Catholicism.
A number of Episcopal priests and at least two other Episcopal bishops are thinking of crossing the Tiber after Sept. 30, VirtueOnline has learned.
Despite this, some of the most significant growth in Anglo-Catholicism in recent years can be seen internationally with the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC) and its American link, the Anglican Church in America (ACA), a branch that is growing, and absorbing smaller Anglo-Catholic churches that proliferate on the fringes of the Episcopal Church. The TAC is the largest body of Anglo-Catholics outside of the Anglican Communion and the Church of England. A feisty Australian the Most Rev. John Hepworth leads it. According to public records, the TAC is an international entity consisting of about half a million members with fewer than 33 bishops in 44 countries speaking seven languages. English is the least prevalent of these.
What has deeply and profoundly hurt and crippled Anglo-Catholics is the recent pronouncement by Pope Benedict XVI that the Roman Catholic Church is [still] the one, true church with all others being in some form defective and their orders "invalid".
In one fell swoop The Roman Catholic Church rejected Anglican orders for failing, in their view, to sustain proper apostolic succession. While The Pope did not declare that all churches other than the Roman Catholic Church had invalid orders, the Eastern Orthodox churches for example, Protestants were his primary target. Evangelicals were not particularly concerned by the pope's stand as they have always had "issues" with Rome over such things as papal infallibility, the nature of the Eucharist, Petrine authority etc. Liberals have always held out hope that John 17 would bring about the fabled unity they were seeking, but organic unity and uniformity should not be confused.
Any hope of an olive branch of reconciliation for Anglo-Catholics now appears for the moment dashed.
For years Anglo-Catholics had pinned their hopes on an Anglican Use Rite approved by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, a proposed process for approving convert clergy. A number of priests were ordained under its canons in 1983. 80 have been ordained since then, with more on the way. An Anglican Use liturgy was finally approved in 1987.
While the Pastoral Provision is only available in the U.S., its availability is only for those priests and bishops who will take the necessary steps to cross the Tiber at which point the Rite is open to them. It is not available to Episcopalians or Anglicans who remain in TEC. For those seeking full communion with Rome, the Pastoral Provision is provided for them under the jurisdiction of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith whose Delegate directs the working of the Provision. Under the Provision, the ordination of married Episcopal priests was made possible. It also authorized the establishment of personal parishes in dioceses of the United States in response to the request of former faithful of the Episcopal Church in which they may retain certain liturgical elements proper to the Anglican tradition.
With the pope's recent pronouncement, any hopes that Anglo-Catholics may have entertained that they would be accepted as Anglicans with their Prayer Book and traditions into the bosom of Rome are gone, at least with this pope.
But one informed source told VOL, that he thinks the Pope's remarks are aimed more at the Anglican Communion rather than at Anglo Catholics. He is said to be sympathetic to the idea of receiving Anglo Catholics into communion along the model that Archbishop Hepworth has proposed -- but not under Hepworth's leadership. This, apparently, has been made clear to Hepworth.
For the moment, however, Anglo-Catholics are adrift and isolated.
Said one Anglo-Catholic priest, "I feel like a small beached whale. People are throwing buckets of water over me to try and save me. My real fear is being dragged back into the ocean where I am all alone."
END
| Poster | Thread |
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| angler2 | Posted: 2007/8/14 14:15 Updated: 2007/8/14 14:30 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/19 From: Posts: 110 |
"Said one Anglo-Catholic priest, "I feel like a small beached whale. People are throwing buckets of water over me to try and save me. My real fear is being dragged back into the ocean where I am all alone."
Here in a nutshell is the current crisis of Anglo Catholicism. This priest is both honest and pitiful as he describes the fear of engaging in the work of restoration which is the only hope for the inheritors of the Oxford Movement. Don't be afraid, Father - you are not alone! Anglo Catholics simply need a new strategy for the new realities we face. In fact, a major world wide conference of Anglo Catholic leaders is in order. We need to return to the same places our founders evangelized - the urban neighborhoods which are filling up with the new immigrant populations of America. The Catholic Faith cannot recover in a church like TEC which now serves politically correct elitists. Our aim should be towards the young, the marginalized and the emerging urban populations of African, Hispanic and other origins. Too much emphasis has been placed upon the few Anglo Catholic "shrine" parishes and too little on new missions and evangelization. Starting a new mission is as easy as consecrating a chapel in someone's home. Anglo Catholicism by itself is a beached whale, but when injected with a healthy dose of both Charismatic and Evangelical fire it can live again. This is exactly the worst moment to give up on the Anglo Catholic Tradition. Behind the baby boomers are several generations looking to sink roots in traditional symbols and practices of Christianity. Why do you think the pope restored the Latin Mass? It wasn't for the boomers! |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/8/14 14:21 Updated: 2007/8/14 14:21 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6863 |
With reference to our scheduled December convention, when we will vote for the second and final time on whether or not to remove the Accession Clause from our diocesan constitution....thus effectively removing us from TEC....I am quite positive that this resolution will pass with the required 2/3 vote.
We are Anglo Catholics, and I do not envision us remaining in TEC. I have no idea of where this vote will lead us, but one thing is abundantly clear....at least to me: We will not stay where we are not welcome! Cennydd |
| Bob4th | Posted: 2007/8/14 14:57 Updated: 2007/8/14 14:57 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/23 From: McDonough GA Posts: 37 |
That Mr. Virtue would only cite the Traditional Anglican Communion and the Anglican Church in America as "Anglo-Catholic" is dissapointing and somewhat misleading. Most of the TAC churches with which I am familiar would be better defined as "broad church". The "Anglo-Catholic" arm of the continuum is probably better represented by the Anglican Catholic Church, the Anglican Province of Christ the King, and the United Episcopal Church of North America, all of whom are in communio in sacris and pledged to full organic unity.
Father Bob Jones |
| railbirdbc | Posted: 2007/8/14 15:02 Updated: 2007/8/14 15:03 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/6 From: Posts: 767 |
In the 1970s the Diocese of British Columbia (Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada) was an Anglo-Catholic diocese. At least the majority of priests were Anglo-Catholic or Tractarian. But within the space of a generation they were either pushed out or eradicated by attrition. Today there are only affirming catholics left (lots of show, but no go). The same is true of the Diocese of New Westminster. Michael Ingham is a very good "Mr. Dress Up," but he and all his clergy are card-board-cut-out catholics. There are no real Anglo-Catholics (and certainly no Tractarians) left in either diocese. If a person is a real Anglo-Catholic in Western Canada, that person is a very lonely individual indeed. Most of the real Anglo-Catholics in the west went to Rome awhile ago.
But thanks David for this item. It's very informative. |
| Sodslaw | Posted: 2007/8/14 15:12 Updated: 2007/8/14 15:12 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/8/3 From: Orthodox Bunker Posts: 343 |
I have some very good friends who are Anglo-Catholics, many SSC priests. They would never be seen dead wth a guitar in their hands and they are sticklers for the Missal! Trouble is, as beautiful as the service is, it rarely gives people anything to take home with them and use for the week ahead. It gives some people a good "church" feeling, but somehow in these parishes the warmth and love is conspicuous by its absence. The problem is kicked up a notch when attending churches that are "lower than a snakes belly" where there is little or no reverence for the sacrament. Friends, we CAN have it all! Anglo-Catholic, Charismatic, and Evangelical CAN run together! And when they do, the churches explode with growth! People are hungry for it all, we must just be clever enough as priests to bring the worship together in a seamless and exciting way. We are competing for peoples time on a Sunday morning and we are trying to win souls for Christ and to feed and nourish those who come.
Being narrow-minded in any way will spell disaster for the local church. David, a first class article and the timing is perfect! |
| lkwells | Posted: 2007/8/14 15:25 Updated: 2007/8/14 15:25 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/2/19 From: Posts: 607 |
This article speaks of TAC as a "growing" organization. If DV has any statistical evidence of this, he should share it. TAC is unique among the various "continuing" bodies in its constant claim of enormous membership, but without any supporting numbers. A TAC writer here recently claimed "around 800,000 members." When I challenged this, it drew no response. On another thread there was a claim of "over 500,000 members." In reality, TAC has no hard numbers it is willing to share. We never see a breakdown diocese by diocese or congegation by congregation. The USA franchise, ACA, has fewer than 90 parishes or missions, with an average membership of 50 or less. The Australian and Canadian branches are much smaller, if their websites are even remotely accurate. The Vatican has surely detected this tendency, and would naturally be suspicious of shady claims of huge membership. Such "growth" as may exist comes only through congregations of one jurisdiction hopping over to ACA, but from personal experience I know that numerous strong congregations of ACA have left it in disgust with its ineffectual bishops, so this "growth" is really a wash at best.
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| gregory | Posted: 2007/8/14 15:40 Updated: 2007/8/16 17:17 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
Thanks to David V for this article.
My family church has seen two of our 1928 PB & Anglican Missal priests "swim the Tiber"... i even attended one their services when he became a RCC priest My family is trying to stay with "Anglicanism", have left TEc, presently use only the 1928 PB but it is difficult to deal/combine with the folks that push for watered down version(s) of Faith. No matter how hard one tries to accept "Anglicanism" there is always someone who harasses and demands less than i see that God offers. The more i read the more i see that many "Anglo-Catholics" are really closer to The Orthodox Faith than RCC. But they say the same Creed as the RCC. Go figure ??? i can only say that Evangelism is my top priority. A personal relationship with Jesus Christ that is shared with the unbeliever is what God calls me to do... Praying for Divine Guidance, humbly, gregory |
| gregory | Posted: 2007/8/14 16:01 Updated: 2007/8/14 17:01 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
lkwells, i clicked on your name and followed your link to your site... http://www.panix.com/~lkwells/
Your site seems to have been updated since my last visit years ago or maybe i didn't dig deep enough. Interesting, how when i refresh your Links page how the pictures change; http://www.panix.com/~lkwells/links.html Are you "Anglo-Catholic"? i know we have briefly chanted in 2005 before our church family moved away from TEc but i believe we need to met one of these Sundays or ??? gregoryps i find it difficult to understand Who is Who? Like Father Bob states... And how different words are interpreted. ![]() updated after reading this link; http://www.panix.com/~lkwells/anglican_faith.html (Before Today, i missed that link from the Beliefs page) i definitely need to visit St Michael's and get to know ya'll. |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/8/14 16:04 Updated: 2007/8/14 16:04 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6863 |
Lkwells, I share your assessment of the TAC in this country, and that's one reason why I am so hesitant about making a move toward them and one or two other continuing churches....for the present. For this and for other reasons....such as the results of my diocese's move this December, I am going to have to reluctantly wait and see.
I don't like it, but there it is. One way or another, however, I will be gone from TEC. Cennydd |
| Masha | Posted: 2007/8/14 17:44 Updated: 2007/8/14 17:44 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/11/6 From: Posts: 44 |
Hey, my friends--it's been a while, but reading these posts I wonder if I couldn't dry a few tears and turn a few frowns upside down with a couple of suggestions predicated on the statement I read in a post above about how Anglo-Catholic services don't give people anything to "take home" with them to sustain them during the week.
May I suggest reading the corporate prayers of the Church together if you don't already do that, or reading the psalms of the day or saying the Rosary or the Jesus Prayer, because Jesus is leading you on a steep, narrow path and it'll give you strength for the journey and make you surer than ever that you're not alone, because people all over the world are praying with you and for you! Be strong, because "in Christ there is no east or west!" Adding my own unworthy prayers, "Masha" ![]() |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/8/14 18:17 Updated: 2007/8/14 18:17 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6863 |
For what it's worth, Masha, I say an Anglican Rosary on a fairly regular basis....especially when I feel a spiritual need....and it does help! I have a beautiful set of rosewood beads, and I often find myself fingering them and contemplating when the need arises.
Cennydd |
| Masha | Posted: 2007/8/14 18:34 Updated: 2007/8/14 18:34 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/11/6 From: Posts: 44 |
May your prayers be set forth as incense, and the lifting up of your hands be an evening sacrifice, Cennydd!
"Masha" |
| stmike | Posted: 2007/8/14 18:54 Updated: 2007/8/14 18:54 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/10/19 From: Plymouth, NH Posts: 63 |
Plymouth, NH
August 14, 2007 Dear Ikwells et al, There are many varieties of Anglo-Catholicism. Some Anglo-Catholics are what is know as Evangleical Catholics: Those who are eager to reaach out and help people to come to a more personal knowledge of Jesus and His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. So it is that lively Anglo-Catholics were busy in the 19th Century starting up parishes in the West and setting up Nashotah House so as to train priests for life on the American frontier. At the same time Anglo-Catholics in the British Isles were busy setting up the Universities Mission to Central Africa and spresding the Faith to what is now Zambia and other nations in the region. It is true that under persecution in the past and in our present day some Anglo-Catholics have been so battered by the 'Liberal' Establishment of the day that they have retreated into an inward looking form of religion and have become preoccupied with secondary matteres. However Evanglical Catholics have been busy spreading the Faith and doing what they can to be a blessing to many, be they in the slums of east London or in foreign missions. So it is that in our time Anglo-Catholics of all kinds are doing what they can. Some are in Forward in Faith and are fighting for the Faith from within the established Church. Others around the world have found that they can not in good conscience support the Modernist leaders (I live in New Hampshire) and so have joyfully moved on and are now part of the Traditional Anglican Communion (and its American manifestation, the ACA). We are busy starting up faithful parishes which are free to spread the Gospel and uphold catholic teaching. The unchurched are coming to us, and we would like to have many more. As you have observed, some of our missions are still quite small; others are larger and have been able to constuct buildings of their own and engage in a variety of ministries. While we aren't that numerous here in North America, do note what David Virtue wrote in his article on Anglo-Catholics. Most of the membership of the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC) is actually located in Asia and Africa. Of the seven most used languages in the TAC, English is the 7th. So it is that the American portion of the TAC's 700,000 members is one of the smallest. May God bless all Anglo-Catholics (in the TEC, ACC, APCK, etc.)and faithful Anglicans of any kind as they engage in the important work which our Lord calls us to in these days. Yours in Christ's love, Dean Steward + |
| Romans828 | Posted: 2007/8/14 19:16 Updated: 2007/8/14 19:22 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/27 From: Posts: 246 |
Very good article, but it may share one common misconception.
The terms "high church" and "low church" do not mean "liturgical" and "non-liturgical." They are references to the degree to which one considers the church necessary for salvation. Over the centuries, those who saw the church as essential tended toward liturgy, understandably, and those who didn't did not, so people began erroneously using the terms in reference to liturgy. One can certainly have "low church" theology and be drawn to the smells and bells of Anglo-Catholic worship. I suppose the opposite is also true, but I admit I can't think of anyone who has a "high church" theology who shies away from liturgy. To the best of my knowledge, "Low Church Catholic" is a contradiction in terms, unless referring to a RC with an extremely revisionist argument. I am intrigued by one phenomenon that maybe someone can shed light on for me. The RC insistance that Anglicans are not in Apostolic Succession (while Eastern Orthodox are) is not related to the historic, unbroken line of ordinations, but to the exact words we Anglicans have used when ordaining. So, to fix this problem, why don't Anglo-Catholics just change the words to the RC standard, bring in bishops who the RCC does believe to be ordained in Apostolic Succession, and remedy the whole problem within a generation? (There are plenty such bishops out there...Eastern Orthodox, Old Polish Catholic, etc., and I'm confident that they could be pursuaded to assist.) There wouldn't have to be any concession that previous Anglo-Catholic ordinations were invalid; Visiting bishops could simply be involved for "Ecumenial" reasons. This solution seems simple and obvious enough to me. Why is no one pursuing it? |
| Climacus | Posted: 2007/8/14 19:29 Updated: 2007/8/14 19:29 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/2/19 From: Boston Posts: 86 |
Could someone answer two questions for me?
First, are these married Anglican priests who convert to Catholicism allowed to continue their ministries? Or do they remained 'ordained' but can no longer perform the mass? Second, are more Anglican priests turning to Catholicism or Western Orthodoxy? Western Orthodoxy seems the more natural road to follow, seeing as Catholicism involves accepting a number of non-Vincentian beliefs. Cheers. |
| lkwells | Posted: 2007/8/14 19:33 Updated: 2007/8/14 19:33 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/2/19 From: Posts: 607 |
Fr Steward: Since you are so very positive that TAC has a huge overseas membership, perhaps you will favor us with some real statistics. There have been many vagantes sects which consisted of numerous bishops and their handful of followers who claimed to have huge numbers in other lands. It is regrettable that TAC/ACA has fallen into into this pattern; you have nothing to gain by it and these astronomical figures only erode your credibility.
Facts are: when ACA came into existence in 1993, its had 11 bishops consecrated at Deerfield Beach. (I was there to observe.) Practically all of these left ACA later, none under pleasant circumstances. (Not unlike the "witnesses" to Joseph Smith's golden plates, all of whom apostatized from the Mormon Church.) At the beginning, there were 6 dioceses in the USA. Two have collapsed and you have 4 remaining. Hardly the picture of spiritual health. There are many good priests in the ACA; I regard you as one of them. Likewise many splendid parishes lage and small which witness gallantly to the authentic faith. But you are doing yourselves no favor with outlandish claims of astronomical membership. |
| Romans828 | Posted: 2007/8/14 19:41 Updated: 2007/8/14 19:41 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/27 From: Posts: 246 |
While we're at it, the Roman Catholic Church also engages in gross exaggeraton. The Vatican claims some 1.1 Billion Church members woldwide, but the actual number of practicing RC's is much closer to a fifth of that. (Sounds like the Church of England, doesn't it?)
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| CalAggie | Posted: 2007/8/14 19:53 Updated: 2007/8/14 19:53 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/4/9 From: Davis, CA Posts: 156 |
I must say, this was an excellent article by Mr. Virtue and it could not have come at a better time. One criticism I do have, is the article was always in contrast to Roman Catholicism. Nothing was mentioned of the conversions of Anglo-Catholics to Orthodoxy or the Orthodox Churches creating the Liturgy of St. Tikhon which is based upon the BCP 1928 version. It would be funny to see if Orthodoxy recognized Anglican Catholic orders, what Rome would have to say.
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| Romans828 | Posted: 2007/8/14 19:59 Updated: 2007/8/14 19:59 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/27 From: Posts: 246 |
CalAggie, that test has already been run. Circa 1930 several of the Eastern Orthodox Churhes took official positions acknowledging the validity of Anglican orders. These have never been rescinded, although I'm sure nowadays many Orthodox would like to.
Rome never budged. The prevailing attitude among RC Bishops is "we've already got a great thing going here. Why mess with it." |
| Leonardori | Posted: 2007/8/14 20:06 Updated: 2007/8/14 20:06 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/26 From: Posts: 37 |
I am Anglo Catholic and I don't feel threatened or persecuted by anyone...the thing that I keep remembering is the Episcopal Church "Welcomes Everyone" and some of the "everyones" think and believe much differently than I do on a number of theological issues...I keep my eye on the alter and the cross as well as my own sinful nature.
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| railbirdbc | Posted: 2007/8/14 20:30 Updated: 2007/8/14 20:30 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/6 From: Posts: 767 |
Just to set the record straight, the High-Church Party of the 19th century was made up of a group of concerned and devout churchmen (mainly clergy) who were dissatisfied with the low moral and spiritual state of the Church of England. Their main concerns can be read in their Tracts for the Times (90 in number), in which they present what they saw as the critical needs and issues facing the Established Victorian Church. These men were serious Christians and their concerns were in no way ephemeral, but had an impact on the church that has lasted even into our own time, and can be witnessed in the contemporary attempts to preserve their views about genuine Christianity by those groups that have broken ranks with liberal Anglicanism and have set up parallel jurisdictions (i.e., Continuing Anglican groups). A quick backward glance at church history tells us that the Victorian Anglo-Catholics were very concerned with the practicality of the Gospel imperatives regarding social issues, and some of the most famous of them gave up promising academic careers and clerical advancement in order to minister in the poorest areas of Britain's largest cities (like London's East End). Furthermore, a careful reading of their lives shows us men who believed in and preached an Evangelical Gospel, while maintaining a "high" view of the church and its sacraments. Additionally, the Anglo-Catholics founded and ran the first theological colleges in England, thereby raising the standard of clergy education in both that nation and in missions abroad. The fact that Anglo-Catholics are hated and segregated today has to do with their insistence on maintaining the integrity of the Bible, the Holy Trinity, and the genuine Christ centered mission of the church. Indeed, if someone were to brand me a "filthy Anglo-Catholic," I would wear that epithet publicly and with deep pride. Do I have any takers?
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| etagert | Posted: 2007/8/14 21:27 Updated: 2007/8/14 21:27 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/4 From: Posts: 142 |
Climacus asked, "Are these married Anglican priests who convert to Catholicism allowed to continue their ministries? Or do they remained 'ordained' but can no longer perform the mass?"
Yes, priests received under Pope John Paul II's Pastoral Provision may continue their ministry and perform the mass according to the Book of Divine Worship (which is a form of the BCP that has been approved by the CDF.) See www.pastoralprovision.org CalAggie, There is a good discussion of the issue of Anglican orders here: http://www.usccb.org/seia/arc_anglicanorders_1990.shtml It also discusses the influence of Roman Catholic and Old Catholic participation in ordinations, and why the issue for Rome is not historical, but theological. |
| etagert | Posted: 2007/8/14 21:42 Updated: 2007/8/14 21:45 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/4 From: Posts: 142 |
Many have brought up the Orthodox Church as being a "suitable alternative" to Rome. I don't think this attitude is very respectful of either tradition. To ask whether Rome or Constantinople better fits your views on xyz issues seems to me the wrong way to go about things. One must inquire as to what/where is the Church, and what/where is the Truth. Then, you must either cease to be Anglo-Catholic, or join one of the many splinter groups. You cannot remain Anglo-Catholic and be Orthodox, or remain Anglo-Catholic and be Roman Catholic. It simply will not work.
I would also point out that not only Rome, but also the Orthodox believe that theirs is the One True Church. They view the Western Church as being heretical and schismatic, whether Protestant or Catholic. The writings of J. Overbeck, who was instrumental in establishing the "Western Rite" make for interesting reading on all of this. (The writings are from the nineteenth century, when certain Anglo-Catholics, along with the Old Catholics, were in discussion with the Orthodox.) |
| chaps | Posted: 2007/8/14 21:43 Updated: 2007/8/14 21:43 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/2/11 From: Posts: 446 |
Romans828 wrote:
"So, to fix this problem, why don't Anglo-Catholics just change the words to the RC standard, bring in bishops who the RCC does believe to be ordained in Apostolic Succession, and remedy the whole problem within a generation? (There are plenty such bishops out there...Eastern Orthodox, Old Polish Catholic, etc., and I'm confident that they could be pursuaded to assist.) There wouldn't have to be any concession that previous Anglo-Catholic ordinations were invalid; Visiting bishops could simply be involved for "Ecumenial" reasons. This solution seems simple and obvious enough to me. Why is no one pursuing it?" Thanks for binging up this very important point, Romans828. In fact, I'm sure that the bishops of at least some of these Churches would be willing to facilitate Anglo-Catholics getting themselves organized into a unified Church...if only they were asked. And there's the rub: through the years, the bishops of the Anglo-Catholic splinters have put preserving their own fiefdoms above the welfare of Christ's Church. Please pray for strong and wise leadership. Blessings, chaps |
| Frcorny | Posted: 2007/8/14 21:48 Updated: 2007/8/14 21:48 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/2/20 From: Holy Cross, Warrensburgh, NY Posts: 67 |
Climacus,
As a matter of fact four of the largest RC churches in the Diocese of Fort Worth are headed by former Episcopal priests (married and with family). I myself am an Anglo-Catholic who preaches the Gospel from the pulpit, evangelizes all the time, genuflects, prays to Mary, uses incense and the Anglican Missal. I do all unapologetically and unabashedly. Our church (Holy Cross) seems to be doing quite well, thank you. I've nothing against happy-clappy worship ..... emotionism does and will draw many people to Christ and if it feeds your particular Spirituality, cool! When they mature as a Christian and are ready to encounter the "meat" of real liturgy, they are welcome at Holy Cross! :) Yours in Christ, The Anglican Paplist, SSC "No desertion, no surrender; Dig a pit for the Cross ![]() |
| CalAggie | Posted: 2007/8/15 1:07 Updated: 2007/8/15 1:07 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/4/9 From: Davis, CA Posts: 156 |
Romans said
CalAggie, that test has already been run. Circa 1930 several of the Eastern Orthodox Churhes took official positions acknowledging the validity of Anglican orders. These have never been rescinded, although I'm sure nowadays many Orthodox would like to. Was it not the Russian Church that recognized this, and then owing to the Bolshevik revolution and the change in authority amongst the Eastern Churches, it was not recognized amongst all of Eastern Orthodoxy in the middle of a confusing period? This is what I was told. And so Anglican Orders were not considered valid because all the Orthodox churches did not agree on it. And Bishop Kallistos said "The Orthodox Church, however deep its longing for reunion, cannot enter into closer relations with the Anglican communion until Anglicans themeselves are clearer about their own beliefs." And like that quote, I think amongst Anglo-Catholics (as well as all of Anglidom) there is a wide range of prevailing views. From those in the Communion who believe in the power of Historic Sees, to exclusionists in the continuim who hold anyone in communion with unorthodox are just as bad, and the Anglo-Papists (whom I am very confused by), and those want nothing to do with Orthodoxy and Rome, and even the confused, who believe they are both Protestant and Catholic. And then there are the Liturgists, who affiliate with Anglo-Catholics but really just like the ornate and might even be revisionists. Oh what a lot we are. I honestly do not know how to make sense of this mess. Which Anglo-Catholics are right... The funny thing about Anglicanism... is its plurality. I thought I was fine when I self titled myself an Anglo-Catholic... and then only to find that term was another blanket for a whole host of views... And because of this I'm flirting with Orthodoxy... |
| Zonaras | Posted: 2007/8/15 1:32 Updated: 2007/8/15 1:41 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/30 From: Posts: 217 |
Gregry noted, "The more i read the more i see that many "Anglo-Catholics" are really closer to The Orthodox Faith than RCC. But they say the same Creed as the RCC. Go figure ???"
Gregory, both the Roman catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Churches consider the Creed of Nicaea as revised by the Council of Constantinople in 381 to be the summation of what it is necessary to believe to be either Catholic or Orthodox. It should be noted that the text of the version used by the RCC is at variance with the older version used by the EOC. The RCC version of the Creed (as does tthe text of the Creed in any version of the Book of Common Prayer) contains the filioque clause, which the EOC considers a pernicious set of words. A pope added the language; the EOC points out that only an ecumenical council can makes changes in the Creed. Secondly, this clause-- in the opinion of the EOC-- creates an understanding of the Holy Trinity which is incorrect. The EOC would argue, if you don't understand the Creed correctly, your whole belief structure is flawed. Many western Christians do not understand why the EOC takes this position. For more detailed discussion of the origin of the Creed, one could read J. N. D. Kelly's _Early Christian Creeds_, a standard work on the topic. For a more detailed discussion of the Orthodox Church's objections to the filioque clause, see Timothy Ware's book _The Orthodox Church_. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/8/15 2:57 Updated: 2007/8/15 2:57 |
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Dear Climacus & CalAggie
To add to what Etagert has already directed you to, there is a good and recent discussion on an article entitled The Anglican Right for married Anglican clergy seeking ties with Rome, its history, current status and its use as an ecumenical tool. Blessings Kimlm |
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| TheRector | Posted: 2007/8/15 3:41 Updated: 2007/8/15 3:41 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/6/11 From: Western Illinois Posts: 7 |
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| lookingup | Posted: 2007/8/15 11:49 Updated: 2007/8/15 11:49 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/4 From: USA Posts: 94 |
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| sentinel | Posted: 2007/8/15 12:16 Updated: 2007/8/15 12:16 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/11 From: Posts: 263 |
"Anglo-Catholicism or "High" Church Anglicanism "
Don't quite agree with making anglo-catholicism synonymous with High Churchmanship. I happen to know high churchmen who would not fit the description of Anglo-catholic. |
| Zonaras | Posted: 2007/8/15 13:20 Updated: 2007/8/15 13:20 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/30 From: Posts: 217 |
Here in New England, the High church is synonymous with Anglo-Catholicism. Smells and bells, etc.
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| Baring-G | Posted: 2007/8/15 21:30 Updated: 2007/8/15 21:30 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/8/8 From: Republic of Florida Posts: 146 |
The characterization of ACA/TAC as Anglo-Catholic is not valid. When I was in it, I would have characterized most of its parishes as "Middle Church".I left it and joined APA, which is uniting with the REC next year and is rushing headlong to Protestantism. For the last few years, I have been in the Anglican Catholic Church under the dynamic leadership of Archbishop Mark Haverland. The ACC, UEC and the APCK are moving ahead to eventual reunion. The Anglican Catholic Church is a real home to this Anglo-Catholic.
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| leader1111 | Posted: 2007/8/16 0:42 Updated: 2007/8/16 13:44 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/19 From: Hobe Sound, Florida Posts: 237 |
Is Anglo-Catholicism or “High” Church Anglicanism facing extreme isolation. IMHO no more then usual. As you state most of the persecutions sited have been going on for so many years and are very old news to most Anglican Catholics, and traditionalists.
We state that TEC has marginalized Anglo Catholics. Wow, nothing new here and it’s true: a rapidly dying, former Christian church (TEC) which believes in almost nothing, is doing it’s best to destroy Anglo-Catholics, but so what, they are trying, and being even more successful at destroying Evangelical Protestant Anglicans. In both cases the individuals, parishes and priests are simply going elsewhere. We see these events every day. As with Christ in the home churches of his early years, true Christians can attend a Continuing Church (any is better then none), or if one is not available, form one. “WHEN TWO, OR THREE, ARE GATHERED IN MY NAME I WILL GRANT THEIR REQUEST.” Have the guts, as Christ did to start something. You don’t need stained glass windows, and pews for 500, but you can bring the received word and scripture to your own family, and others who are no doubt in the area and yearning to gather. You won’t die as Christ did, so quit complaining that you might actually have do some work. Most RC and Anglican scholars and theologians who I have heard comment on the RC position recently expressed by Pope Benedict XVI fully believed he was laying down the law on beliefs to Roman Catholics (and by implication the rejection of the heretical Anglican Communions Unitarianism) and the almost heretical changes which both John Paul II and Benedict disagreed with after Vatican II. Standards were relaxed, sins deemphasized, a move to general confessions (which the RCs had always said were not the equivalent of personal confessions), and a bland, less reverent liturgy. Wow, this sounds like the anarchy and 1979 PB revisions of TEC. The Canadian Roman Catholics have recently broadcast a video on TAC and the RCs quest for unity as they feel there is a lot in it at www.saltandlighttv.org. Hence, this Papal change is an encouragement and an authorization to return without restrictions to the Latin Mass. The RC traditionalists are NOT to be hindered under orders from the Pope. Simply put, the Pope said these are the reasons why you are a RC. They were needed and long over due. Yes, some Anglo Catholics have joined the RC church, but in my experience most, and I mean a very large majority have simply left TEC and gone nowhere. They pray privately, and I have dozens of examples. Initially, as an original member of the Continuing Anglican Catholic Church (ACC) thirty years ago with Bp. Doren, and much longer as a member of TAC (both the ACA and the ACCCanada), and in recent years after moving a member of an ACC parish, I can say that both the ACC and TAC are a mix of Broad and High Church. Other then the largest Continuing Churches (and not because of size) I do not consider the other one man band churches to be real (although we Continuers are constantly branded by these other 30 or so, so called “churches.”) Remember anyone in the US can set up a church or call himself a bishop, or Anglican. I personally only consider the following to be legitimate because they all came from the same Anglican or Episcopal stock: ACA/ACC/APCK/UECNA/APA/HCC (sorry if I missed any) but after these I don’t generally have a high regard. Equally, stop complaining about an “alphabet soup” and instead get down on your knees and pray, and start serving the Lord. One of the most upsetting things to me personally are the constant repeating as Gospel, of the mantra that all bishops of Continuing Churches want to preserve their power, and want to make everyone a bishop. They love to try and destroy the traditionalist Continuing Church by innuendo, but repetition of false accusations is not only vindictive and unchristian, but also untrue of most of these churches. Where are these hundreds of bishops we are accused of having. At this stage in my life I would love to ask those that can’t say anything nice about those that have fought the traditionalist battles for thirty years (on your behalf whether you like it or not) to give them a break, or at least get your facts straight. In my experience, TAC is the Continuing Church that has most consistently tried to join traditionalists together over the last 20 years. Almost half of the ACC joined TAC (what was the American Episcopal Church [AEC] at that time), but some other Bishops at that time in the ACC led the rest away from joining forces. There is always an excuse, and yes, all the main Continuing Churches should be together. I thought it was sad then, and even more sad now. TAC, as we recently heard, offered the APCK the headship of the new union, if he wanted. Now that’s really being power hungry. The APCK always refused any unions or talks of unions (including my visit in 1994 to offer a thread for some discussions). It’s a free country and you don’t have to unite. Events are now overtaking us as almost the whole Eastern half of the APCK has now come together with the ACA in the last month. Welcome in the name of Christ. The remaining Western half of the APCK has now quickly said they may have some interest in maybe, eventually joining the ACC over a long period of time. We shall see. TAC wants to send their seminarians to the REC seminary, and REC will add instruction to cover Anglo Catholic needs. Praise God! The UECNA has also recently rejoined with the ACC after separating years ago. In life I have found that you cannot force people to use common sense, but sometimes it just happens. Although Abp John Hepworth, the TAC Primate, is an exceptional and godly man, and has a background remarkably similar to that of Bp. Schofield of San Joaquin, there are many other Continuing Bishops working hard behind the scenes. In the Continuing Church you get no accolades, no press and no pay because you do it for Christ. The other disgusting thing that keeps some people happy, is reciting whether TAC, or anyone else, has 300,000, 506,682 or 712,020 parishioners. Get a life! As a Christian what I like to concentrate on are the many success stories: • The whole Diocese of the Torres Straites which had previously been under the ACAustralian Primate (Anglican Communion) came totally over to TAC. Every parishioner, every church, everything and they are thriving. The Torres Straites Diocese has more parishioners then many TEC dioceses. THANKS BE TO GOD! • The Continuing Church has been so successful that St. Stephens College (1-12 Grade) in Queensland, Australia (TAC) now has over 1,000 students and are running out of room, and as a result they are going to open another college to match the unprecedented demand for a traditional, orthodox Anglican education by the young and their parents. • That a three million pound restoration of St. Katherine’s Priory and Church is underway in the ancient see of Lincoln to provide TAC with a cathedral for those in the UK; and St. Agatha’s, Portsmouth, UK (the size of a cathedral and beautiful photos at www.themessenger.com.au) has also now been restored. What a magnificent testimonial to our belief in Christ • That the ACC parish in West Palm Beach, Florida is close to starting construction on a new multi million dollar church and facilities for the people in the revisionist diocese of Southeast Florida THERE IS SO MUCH GOOD NEWS IN THE CONTINUING CHURCH. THIS IS THE NEWS THAT THE PEOPLE OF CHRIST NEED TO HEAR. THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE AND THE RECEIVED WORD OF CHRIST. |
| Ikerliker | Posted: 2007/8/16 2:20 Updated: 2007/8/16 2:20 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2051 |
Anglo-Catholicism is alive and well at St. Clement's Philadelphia. Several hundred people attended High Mass for the Assumption of the BVM tonight.
No, it's not Affirming Catholicism there. No priestesses running amuck. Thanks be to God! The full choir sang Haydn's Missa Sti. Johannes de Deo in Latin accompanied by organ and strings. Our Lady's image was carried in procession. The Preacher was the Rev'd Richard Alton, Sometime Rector of St. Mark's Locust St. who gave an inspiring sermon and was made a Guardian of the Shine of Our Lady of Clemency this evening. You can still find the faith once delivered in DioPA. -Chuckles was no where in sight! Thanks be to God! |
| Fr_Rob | Posted: 2007/8/16 3:58 Updated: 2007/8/16 3:58 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/10/20 From: Posts: 15 |
Thank you David Virtue, angler2, Sodslaw, railbirdbc, and leader1111 for your uplifting and interesting posts. I think it's especially important to focus on the positive achievements, as leader1111 has done, since God knows we can all list the many inadequacies and deficits that have plagued the Anglo-Catholic, Tractarian, and Continuing Church Movements. If we keep the Gospel firmly before us and busy ourselves with prayer, evangelism, outreach, spiritual growth, and strategic alliances where possible, many of the problems of the past will fade into the background. We have a glorious heritage and one that is deserving of our full support.
Fr. Rob, ACC priest |
| CalAggie | Posted: 2007/8/16 4:27 Updated: 2007/8/16 4:27 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/4/9 From: Davis, CA Posts: 156 |
I have an inquiry for the continuers.
Why do you use the Tridentine Mass over the Holy Communion Rite in the 1928 prayer book? And do all Anglo-Catholic parishes use Sanctus Bells? |
| DomWalk | Posted: 2007/8/16 4:43 Updated: 2007/8/16 4:43 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/9 From: Left Coast, USA Posts: 619 |
etagert:
I believe he forgot a leading "the" in the domain name. Here's the site URL: http://www.themessenger.com.au/ And here are the images all in one place on Google Image search: St. Agatha's pics in Google Images Couple more pics here: http://www.hago.org.uk/venue/st-agatha/index.html (leader1111: hope I got this right...) |
| shytech74 | Posted: 2007/8/16 9:50 Updated: 2007/8/16 9:50 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/4/23 From: Ontario Canada Posts: 1054 |
As a member of the TAC Anglican Catholic Church of Canada, recently Confirmed as a middle aged man, my knowledge of the recent history of the anglocatholic movement has been gleaned from books and reading rather than via personal experience. I will say this: Yeah, there is a lot of politicking that goes on in Continuing dioceses, same as with any other church. Yeah, there are bishops and priests who lack evangelistic zeal, same as with any other church, yeah there may be gays, what else is new? I do believe that the incidence of closet gays is far less in the Continuing Church than the mainline Canterbury communion.
One thing that is really stifling a lot of Continuing anglocatholic priests, in my opinion, is the fact that many must work a regular day job to support themselves and their families. This is in itself a very draining task, as any workingman will tell you; at the end of a hard day's work it is all one can do to cut the grass, eat supper and go to bed. Add priestly/church planting duties on top of that, and something has to suffer. Add onto that the reality of rented facilities...our parish meets in a small hall rented for Sunday mornings and on Christmas Eve, that's it. We have no midweek capabilities, as the priests home is tiny. I don't know of any fulltime continuing parish priests who do not either work full or part time, or are retired. And as any retired man will tell you, that losing one's vitality and other health problems can really sap your energy/ambition. Praise God for the old soldiers, but it is the young men we need to light fires under. I inquired of the Theological College here, St. Bede's, about studies, and received no reply. If you read their criteria for admission it is ridiculously stringent academically. This too is why they are regressing. Jesus didn't call the twelve most brilliant and Lettered men he found lounging on the beach in Galilee, He called the ignorant, the fishermen, the ones with potential written on them, not success. I understand the need for qualified clergy, one must be able to give an answer for his faith with humility and charity, but requiring "completed undergraduate work in philosophy" is asking for needless extras. With the relaxing of restrictions for the usage of the Latin Mass by the Pope, I can see a lot of wavering anglocatholics testing those waters out. Who knows, I may go there myself. |
| railbirdbc | Posted: 2007/8/16 14:31 Updated: 2007/8/16 14:31 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/6 From: Posts: 767 |
shytech
You raise a few good points about Continuing Anglicans, their attitudes, and especially their educational demands for persons hoping to become priests. I believe St. Bede's does offer a Licentiate in Theology for those who do not possess an undergraduate degree. The catch is, you must have the prior approval of your parish priest and the Diocesan Bishop to be admitted into the course of studies. This is not an unusual demand for a denominational school to make. But you're right about it inhibiting ordinary Christians from gaining a deeper knowledge of the Bible and Theology. One of the serious flaws of Anglicanism that has helped to bring about its downfall, has been its attitude to its laity and their place in the grand scheme of things. When the Anglicans finally did get around to thinking about lay education they designed Mickey Mouse programs which simply skimmed the surface of doctrinal and Biblical matters, or programs that were so laced with liberal double-talk that they taught nothing but heretical notions based on New Age thinking. It was (and is still) believed that laymen do not require deeper individual knowledge of the Bible or theology -- that is why you have priests. It's the clergy's job to tell you what to believe and why you should believe it. It is only within recent history that Evangelical Anglicans began to take the education of the laity seriously and started to offer seminary and college programs designed specifically for the laity. Now laymen can engage in parallel theological programs to the clergy, but the degree earned is usually a Master's in Theological Studies as opposed to the pastoral Master of Divinity program. However, if you are serious about engaging in a theological program of study, you can investigate several options available to the laity. One would be through Britain's Open Theological College (the program can be done by extension), or through a Canadian institution like Regent College, Vancouver, which also offers some courses by extension. You might also explore the University of London's Diploma in Theology program (also available by extension), but you should be aware that it tends to be more liberal in it's theology, and so you should choose your courses carefully. Whatever your decision, may God be your guide and comforter in each step you take. |
| Collin | Posted: 2007/8/16 14:36 Updated: 2007/8/16 14:36 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/30 From: Malaysia Posts: 15 |
I think Anglo-Catholics will find a better home in Western Orthodoxy. The Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese has its doors open specially for Anglo-Catholics. Whatever it is, I believe that after this, you will just be known as Orthodox Christians. No more Anglo-Catholics.
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| leader1111 | Posted: 2007/8/16 16:20 Updated: 2007/8/16 16:20 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/19 From: Hobe Sound, Florida Posts: 237 |
Thank you for correcting the web address of The Messenger I gave.
You also provided some other photos of St. Agatha's which showed how incredibly beautiful it has been restored. Some say that in a High Church mass the parishioners feel disconnected and not participants in the service. I totally disagree. I have a sense/feeling that I can't truly describe during the Mass that gives me a peace, perfect world feeling, and total sense of removal from the world outside. I feel so good it's truly indescribable. I hope others achieve the same joy that I do. What orders of service do we use as High Anglicans. Short answer I have seen everything, and they are all a joy. BCP1662/BCP1962/BCP1928 in the UK/Canada/US to the Anglican Missal, American Missal combined with the many fantastic hymns of our church and you can not help but be uplifted. The revised 1979 PB (TEC) and the Alternative Services in Canada and the UK as well as the Modern RC rite as so bland in language and feeling that they make me feel as if I am in a WalMart getting instructions for the next sale item. Never give up. |
| shytech74 | Posted: 2007/8/17 0:10 Updated: 2007/8/17 0:10 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/4/23 From: Ontario Canada Posts: 1054 |
Hi railbirdbc,
I have made the decision to not pursue studies for now. The ACCC requires that all those wishing to seek ordination MUST study at St. Bede's. Those from other non-TAC jurisdictions I suppose must simply prove that they are in agreement theologically to be incardinated. I've got too many irons in the fire as it is presently. ![]() |
| gregory | Posted: 2007/8/17 11:42 Updated: 2007/8/17 11:44 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
TheRector, i missed the link in your post till today when i happened to cross the hot link;
Truth is Harshly Indifferent to How I feel Thank You! i saved the link for future use. AND then i saw the second link in your post; http://gracegalesburg.blogspot.com/ humbly, gregory |
| Zonaras | Posted: 2007/8/17 17:19 Updated: 2007/8/18 2:55 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/30 From: Posts: 217 |
Collin, as a member of the EOC and a fan of Archbishop Philip Saliba, I feel your comments need to be modified. If you read this thread, you will find that there seems to be a disagreement over what Anglo- Catholic is. It is probable if an Anglo-Catholic/High Churchperson likes smells and bells and approaches his religion in much the same way that members of the RCC do, s/he might feel at home in either rite of the Antiochan Archdiocese or any branch of the EOC. The OCA and the AOC, as I am sure you know, are less ethnic than the Greek Archdiocese. If they are evangelicals (in the worst sense of the word., i.e bible thumping), they will feel very uncomfortable in either rite of the EOC where tradition often supersedes the Bible despite rhetoric to the contrary. In a word, a real protestant would have a prioblem with the EOC. In this respect, the EOC is similar to the RCC. The relationship between the clergy/hierarchy of the EOC and their laity might be problematical to many Anglicans/Episcopalians since it is the same as that of clergy/hierarchy of the RCC to their of the laity. Interpretation of the Bible pretty much is in the hands of the clergy and bible study, though it exists, is not really a strong tradition in the EOC. Some churches such as Holy Cross Greek Church In Pittsburgh, PA have a strong bible study program. The program, however, is run and directed by the priest and most people line up behind his interpretation. With all this being said, the are a number of successful Western Orthodox parishes here in the US. many of them are disaffected members of the RCC, though there are also some that were former Episcopal parishes. The issue is much more complicated than you make it seem.
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| unitarian | Posted: 2007/8/17 23:04 Updated: 2007/8/17 23:04 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/12/31 From: Bryn Mawr, PA Posts: 307 |
DV may well be right for clergy, at least for older clergy who joined one thing and saw it turn into something else.
But I think he is overly pessimistic as far as the faithful go. The fact is we go anywhere that the truth is on offer. Having made the pilgrimage from Unitarianism to Anglo-Catholicism (very common, I am told, perhaps because of the clarity each one stresses) I know very well why I am neither Roman Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox, much as I admire and venerate both traditions. I remember my Unitarian pastor in Boston recently remarking that what Protestantism lacked was "the Petrine ministry." What concerns DV is the increasing institutional chaos. This concerns me as well. And it must concern clergy who have given their lives and have some concern with such things as pensions and retirement. I've concluded, however, that the chaos is here to stay and will get worse. Anglicanism in its current form is falling apart. But what was long the way of Canterbury and of the Oxford Movement will survive in the ruins. It is hard for me to imagine the New Religion winning serious converts. (Though did you know Wicca is the fastest growing "religion" in our country?) Those who are serious will simply continue, even in an atomized communion. Eventually things will congeal. Some of my best friends are Jesuit China watchers. The SJ went through a crisis in the 1960s. Several of them left to marry. None wore clerical garb. No one was joining. Then a new recruit turned up--enthusiastic, absolutely orthodox, unashamed of the collar, and so forth. I cannot say he singlehandedly saved the order, but he marked a turning of the tide. Where did he come from? Only God knows. I'm just preparing some lectures on city bombing in World War II. Even at Dresden, casualties were relatively low--31,000 is the best estimate, from a firestorm that absolutely destroyed the heart of the city, leaving gutted and charred ruins. Out of which hundreds of thousands of survivors emerged. The current TEC leadership is attempting a firestorm of parish buildings. No doubt many will be taken. But we Anglo-Catholic believers will emerge from the rubble and carry on. The solemn high mass is a treasure. But my late friend Bao Ruo-wang (Jean Pasqualini) described a Christmas Mass celebrated by Father Hsieh in a Chinese prison camp in the 1960s. The Father absented himself from the work crew for a few minutes. The others watched out. He found an earth bank near a trash can, the contents of which were smoldering. He took his tin cup and a bit of ersatz biscuit he had hidden, and ran through the rite. A policeman approached on a bicycle. Pasqualini ran to warn him. But he was finishing up, and when the policeman pedaled by "all he saw was two Chinese warming their hands over a fire in an old oil barrel." He said it was the holiest mass he could imagine. That is how we should think. If we are driven out of the sanctuaries we have today, so what? We will build new ones. Gradually things will come together again. Boston Unitarian |
| Truthseekr | Posted: 2007/8/21 12:28 Updated: 2007/9/7 12:59 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/14 From: terra firma ................ ( just a pilgrim passing thru ) Posts: 784 |
Excellent article.
Thanks for the organized insight into Anglo-catholics. It fits most of the AC's I know with incredible accuracy. I would bet a bucket of popcorn, that there were some conservative AC's that were not happy with DV about some of the details of this article. Thanks to DV for a job well done yet again. truthseekr ![]() |
| DavidS | Posted: 2007/8/25 1:32 Updated: 2007/8/25 1:32 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/24 From: Evansville, IN Posts: 49 |
I thought everyone might want to know that the article lookingup posted has been exposed as a fraud and the Rev. Dr. Packer has made a statement that it does not represent his theology. I'm certain that no one on Virtue is trying to do anything inappropriate. It's the website that it can be found on that really misrepresents it as Dr. Packer's work. However, it might be a genuine mistake on their part as well. No one is sure how Dr. Packer's name got attached to it.
It can all be found at http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/5140 |
| FBarbarosa | Posted: 2007/8/26 4:33 Updated: 2007/8/26 4:33 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/24 From: Posts: 19 |
A very good summary, Mr, Virtue, but very negative and self-referential. For the gentleman who feels like "a beached whale" I offer the thought that your "beached whale feelings" place you much closer to Christ. Much closer. How "beached" do you think Christ felt? How abandoned? Remember, this is about Christ's sacrifice and God's presence in our lives. It's NOT about us. A zen buddhist would advise you to go deeper into those feelings of abandonment, really feel it all, see it all swirling around.
I never felt myself to be an "anglo-catholic" growing up, my sensibilities are far more old school Calvinist or Dutch Reformed. But I attended an episcopal church, and now attend an "anglo-catholic" parish. I take home ALOT each week after church, I think ALOT about what is said, and the lessons. I suggest that you clear your mind and actually pay attention to what is being said. There's alot there. |
| AdOrientem | Posted: 2007/8/26 23:35 Updated: 2007/8/26 23:35 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/8/26 From: Posts: 2 |
A couple of quick points. First while Pope +Benedict did affirm the teaching of the Latin Church that all other churches and ecclesial entities are to varying degrees defective he did not declare that all of them lack valid orders. Point in fact some orders outside of the Roman Church are recognized, namely those of the Orthodox Church. It should also be noted that many of the so called Anglo-Catholics (especially your TAC types) received their orders in part from other groups whose orders Rome is inlined to recognize. Since this happened long after the decree from Rome condemning Anglican orders as absolutely null and void it effectively recasts the question.
Also I fin it interesting that very little attention has been paid to the large number of Anglicans who are migrating not to Rome but rather eastward to Orthodoxy. My godfather is an ex Anglican (and one of the original supporters of the Affirmation of St. Louis). Many Anglicans are also discovering that they do not need to abandon the spiritual forms of Western Christianity to become Orthodox. The Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese here in the United States currently supports a vibrant Western Rite ministry which is heavily composed of former Episcopalians among others. They use two forms of liturgy one of which is closely modeled on the 1928 BCP. The other is a slightly corrected rendering of the traditional Roman Catholic Liturgy (Tridentine). It is worth remembering that there is an alternative to Rome for those seeking the Apostolic Church and who have concluded that ECUSA is lost battle. ICXC John |
| AdOrientem | Posted: 2007/8/26 23:38 Updated: 2007/8/26 23:38 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/8/26 From: Posts: 2 |
UGGG. Apologies for typos in the above post.
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| tradition1 | Posted: 2007/9/1 3:19 Updated: 2007/9/1 3:25 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/6/15 From: Posts: 13 |
Thanks for the excellent commentary. I belong to a TAC church that has typical problems of Anglo-Catholic Churches. The parish started in '77 with the Affirmation of St. Louis and some of the founding members are still around while many have long since passed away. We do have some young families but mostly I see a church full of infirmed seventy, eighty, and even ninety year- olds.
By definition, the prognosis for the future is not good with this kind of a demographic. These older folks are certainly important, but they are obviously not the future. We have failed to spread The Word enough and tend to be the "chosen frozen" local evengelicals like to mock. Many people I think do not even realize that the Continuing Churches exist because TEC will not tell you that there is another place for Traditional Anglicans. Before my wife and I joined our current church, we did not go to church anywhere for three years after falling out with our local bishop. Our neighborhood TEC parish had 200 official members ten years ago and well over $1 million in an endowment. The parish is now about 15 people on a good Sunday and spent down the ENTIRE endowment three years ago. They have no priest and are teetering on the verge of extinction. This speaks volumes to the weakness and lack of zeal for TEC in my area. The downtown cathedral that had 950 members ten years ago is lucky if they have 300 as of 2006. First and foremost, we must make our presence known for what we are for- not just what we are against. I left TEC six years before the whole Robinson affair because I felt TEC had no moral authority and was poorly led. I know for a fact lots of local former TEC people are crossing the Tiber to Rome OR going to the local Orthodox Church of America or Antiochian Orthodox Church. I know of a local Weslyan Church that had FIVE members a decade ago now has regular attendance of over FIVE THOUSAND!!! WHY? Because they spread THE WORD casting a wide net, they grew rapidly. The Orthodox Churches around me are expanding exponentially as well, but the nearest Continuing Churches are at least an hour away in literally all directions! I make the trip every week as I have for several years, but it is not terribly convenient or immediately accessible merely due to the distances involved. We need to make our presence known and renew the tradition of strong homiletics Anglicans are known for. Otherwise, we are a dinosaur in the throes of death. I have some serious doubts myself about the future of Continuing Churches because are numbers are so small. Why are we still so splintered after 30 years? Maybe we need to put away our over-bounding egos and unite as one front. Otherwise, we will be a minor footnote to the history of present-day Christianity. It is time to stop our in-fighting and become of one mind. |













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