Exclusives : It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episcopal Church That Is Lost
IT'S THE ANGLICAN COMMUNION NOT JUST THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH THAT IS LOST
News Analysis
By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
8/9/2007
Increasingly strident Anglican voices are being heard around the world indicating that it is not merely the Episcopal Church that is lost, but the Anglican Communion itself is so severely compromised that it too must split in order for truth, purity and holiness to be reinstated.
In Dallas recently at a meeting of the Anglican Communion Network (ACN), the Rt. Rev. Robert Duncan ACN moderator and convener of Common Cause said this, "What is needed is a completely new structure. Lambeth is failing, Canterbury is failing, the Anglican Consultative Council is prejudiced in a Western way and the primates are sadly divided north and south. We'll leave and they can take the stuff with them to hell, because that is where they will take it. This is Good Friday and we have to face it."
Earlier in the month the Rt. Rev. John H. Rodgers expressed similar sentiments in an interview with VOL. He said this, "I think a major division of the Anglican Communion is likely." When asked if eventual schism in the whole Anglican Communion with evangelicals in Africa and the West simply saying "we have had enough" and will go their own way, with TEC announcing that it has 15 countries lined up that will be their communion, Rodgers said, "yes, that seems most likely to me in the not so long run."
After exposing the Archbishop of Canterbury's real views on homosexuality in an article entitled "Williams Stealth Endorsement of Gay Agenda revealed in S.P.R.E.A.D. document" http://tinyurl.com/2knr5p the new interim Dean of TESM commented, "What a shocking mess! It is not just TEC! God is humbling us. We have assumed a global Anglicanism that is true and good and turned a blind eye to its actual condition. We have been idolatrous about the Anglican Communion. The truth is that for us to be faithful Anglicans we can no longer be simply identified with the present Anglican Communion. It must be reformed or divided."
At the Network conference in Bedford, Texas, Duncan elaborated on his views following a formal address saying that reformation of The Episcopal Church is a lost cause. Later, during a question-and-answer session, he criticized the Archbishop of Canterbury for not intervening more forcefully.
"The American province is lost and something will have to replace it," he said.
Bishop Duncan expressed his disappointment that the Archbishop of Canterbury had not supported Network members in ways that he and other Network leaders had hoped. "Never, ever has he [Williams] spoken publicly in defense of the orthodox in the United States. The cost is his office. To lose that historic office is a cost of such magnitude that God must be doing a new thing."
The aura of instability that now surrounds the communion is being heightened by the threat of 12 Primates to not attend Lambeth next year and by Archbishop Peter Jensen of Sydney suggesting an alternate Lambeth be held in London. Nigerian Archbishop Peter Akinola is also thinking of a gathering on African soil.
The CAPA bishops lead by Akinola maintain that the fabric of the Communion has been irreparably torn. This was borne out by many of the orthodox primates refusing to take communion at the recent primates' meeting in Tanzania.
In a statement called the Road to Lambeth, the CAPA bishops said that if those bishops who consecrated Gene Robinson were invited to Lambeth they would refuse to attend.
West Indies Archbishop Drexel Gomez told this writer that if there is a large group who do not attend [Lambeth] it will change the structure and significance of the Lambeth Conference.
It might well signal the end of the Anglican Communion. Gomez opined, "The big question is how can you have a meeting of the leaders of the communion in one place while refusing to address the issues that are tearing the communion apart and preventing the Anglican Communion from moving forward?"
The thoughtful archbishop, who desperately wants to keep the communion together, said that if the 12 Primates don't show up or only a small portion does, it means that half of the bishops representing two-thirds of the communion won't be represented. "The decisions of Lambeth represent the mind of the communion. We are seriously challenged by the present situation," said Gomez.
A coalition of orthodox Primates from the Global South, meeting in London recently, said that a fourth Global South Encounter is needed if the break up of the Anglican Communion is to be averted.
The real test will come when the US House of Bishops meets in New Orleans in September and the Archbishop of Canterbury makes a cameo appearance.
At this point in time, Williams garners little respect from the Network bishops although he commands authority from the Windsor bishops, who have privately said that they would be prepared not to attend Lambeth next year in order to keep the Episcopal Church in the communion.
On all sides there is a sense of betrayal. Conservative Episcopal theologians are divided, stretching and straining friendships over whether the apostasies and heresies of the Episcopal Church are worthy of flight or fight.
Dr. Williams, the upholder of homosexuality and homosexuals, has balked over the consecration of more openly homoerotic bishops and same-sex rites much to the anger of both British and American homosexual advocates. He is promoting a universal Covenant to hold the communion together. Many believe it is too late for that.
Now orthodox leaders like Bishops Duncan and Rodgers believe Williams is seriously compromised and will not acknowledge their orthodoxy or the pain they are going through as faithful Episcopalians who want only to uphold the faith once delivered for all to the saints. They feel horribly let down. Williams has done nothing to intervene as one Evangelical and Anglo-Catholic priest after another in the Episcopal Church gets ecclesiastically slaughtered, inhibited, deposed, and sued with their pensions being stifled by revisionist bishops. He is blind or indifferent to their plight; his silence leaves them feeling deeply betrayed.
If nothing of significance happens in New Orleans, when the Common Cause Partners meet in Pittsburgh at the end of September they may well signal that they too will not attend Lambeth along with many Global South bishops and archbishops. It will make schism inevitable.
September 30, 2007 will mark the day and year that will go down in Anglican history as the single greatest schism since the Reformation and the Archbishop of Canterbury will have no one to blame but himself.
END
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| Poster | Thread |
|---|---|
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/8/9 11:17 Updated: 2007/8/10 17:46 |
Home away from home   Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
 Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco..."Now orthodox leaders like Bishops Duncan and Rodgers believe Williams is seriously compromised and will not acknowledge their orthodoxy..."
With +Duncan and +Rodgers' use of the 1979 book and with their acceptance of women's "ordination" there are alot more people than Williams that don't acknowledge their "orthodoxy". Mainly because they are not orthodox. Conservative? You bet. Orthodox? Nope. I know that I am among the very few that continue to point this out, but if this new "Province" retains the innovations that sank ECUSA/TEC then this is a cruel joke on the truly orthodox Anglicans who are looking for a home. Sam + |
| cuervoria | Posted: 2007/8/9 11:42 Updated: 2007/8/9 11:42 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/6/15 From: College Station, Texas Posts: 541 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Agreed, Sam.
As a Baptist preacher once told me, "When women are in the pulpit, it means the men have left." de la Cuervoria |
| bpcranmer | Posted: 2007/8/9 11:45 Updated: 2007/8/9 11:49 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/4/14 From: PA Posts: 154 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Quote:
With +Duncan and +Rodgers' use of the 1979 book and with their acceptance of women's "ordination" there are alot more people than Williams that don't acknowledge their "orthodoxy". Correction, Bishop Rodgers does NOT accept women's ordination. But I agree with the general thesis. Many who have left (T)ECUSA have brought with them the germs of the same disease: lack of hermeneutical skills, terrible systematic theology, grasping at straws in church growth and leadership theory. I'm encouraged, however, when I run into an older pastor who recognizes his deficiencies and works to correct them. And let's face it, any one of us in ministry who thinks that they can stop learning, has lost the right to teach and lead. |
| lkwells | Posted: 2007/8/9 11:51 Updated: 2007/8/9 11:51 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/2/19 From: Posts: 607 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Good idea, Fr Sam. And flank that picture with pictures of the FIF bishops Schofield and Iker as they "ordain" deaconettes.
The news that the Canterbury-based Anglican Communion is not news to us; the only news is that more people are waking up to this fact. But incredible that one jurisdiction, which sometimes bills itself a Continuing Church and sometimes not, is now committed to getting in the good graces of Canterbury and his dissolving "communion." |
| otispage2 | Posted: 2007/8/9 12:18 Updated: 2007/8/9 12:23 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 615 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... The problem is not women’s ordinations – it is the homosexual agenda in TEC!
The problem is that for a long period homosexuals have organized and manipulated the great Episcopal cash-cow called ECUSA/TEC! Hail Louie Crew and Jack Spong, et al. If ABC can discipline TEC, per Lambeth 1998, then the Communion may be saved. If not, it is rightfully doomed. That a few homosexuals can seize the governance of a once great branch of the Anglican Communion (ECUSA/TEC) is a feat that boggles the minds of true Anglican saints and Christian observers everywhere. Pansexuals rejoice, but true Christians bow their heads in shame that a gang of homosexuals can bring God’s wrath down on a once great church! (Rom 1:18-32) Dave Virtue's report accurately sizes the issue: "September 30, 2007 will mark the day and year that will go down in Anglican history as the single greatest schism since the Reformation and the Archbishop of Canterbury will have no one to blame but himself." ABC to the rescue? Judas betrayed Christ with only a few pieces of silver!I suggest ECUSA/TEC's money bags is the real cause for the propogation of the homosexual agenda in the Anglican Communion -- not woman's ordination. |
| Curious | Posted: 2007/8/9 12:32 Updated: 2007/8/9 12:32 |
Just popping in  Joined: 2006/5/2 From: Posts: 15 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... I have been reading this site for a few years and have a question and want to make an observation.
Questions: What is difference(s) between Conservatives and Orthodox? In the event of a real schism would these differences divide the church even further? Observation: There seems to me that there is often an event or date that is expected to have a dramatic effect on the TEC or the Anglican Communion and they don't seem to ever have that big of a bang, and then are replaced by the next event that will REALLY make a change. My two cents is that on October 1, 2007 things will be pretty much the same as they are on September 29. |
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/8/9 12:32 Updated: 2007/8/9 13:21 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... bpcranmer,
Correction to your correction my friend. You said,"Bishop Rodgers does NOT accept women's "ordination." You are wrong, unless Rodgers has left the AMiA. The Anglican Mission in America, of which Bishop Rodgers is a bishop in good standing, DOES "ORDAIN" WOMEN AS DEACONS. They simply reject WO where priests and bishops are concerned. Holy Orders are Holy Orders. If you go to an AMiA gig you will see women walking around in collars. Once again, someone else who thinks that AMiA rejects women's "ordination". As I said, AMiA are conservative and not orthodox in the classical Anglican way. Sam + |
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/8/9 12:38 Updated: 2007/8/9 12:47 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... "The problem is not women's "ordinations"- it is the homosexual agenda in TEC."
otispage2, Women's "ordination" IS part of "the homosexual agenda in TEC" and cannot be divorced from it. If you did not have "ordained" females like Schori, Wolf, Russell, et al, you would not have a TEC that has embraced wholesale homosexuality in the church. Vicky Gene would never have gotten where he did without "ordained" women in the councils of the church voting their radical feminist agendas through which INCLUDES lesbianism and gay blessings and clergy. WO is one of many cells in a much larger cancer and it is a mistake to think that one has nothing to do with the other. Pax, Sam + |
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/8/9 12:44 Updated: 2007/8/9 13:22 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Curious,
Though the answer runs deeper and is much more involved, here is an easy way to tell the difference in the present situation. Does an Anglican Church function as it did before the innovations of the 1960 and 70's came around? Can you say, "Nothing theologically has changed in this church, and its beliefs and doctrines are the same as they were one, two, or three hundred years ago? If the answer is 'yes', it is probably a church that functions in the classical orthodox Anglican way. If the church you are in has retained the innovations of the 70's such as women's "ordination", the 1979 Prayer Book with is theological issues, and it is perfectly at home with those things but just doesn't like the "gay thing", then it is probably only conservative. This is a very oversimplified response, but all that can be made here without posting too long. Orthodoxy and conservatism are not the same thing. The latter likes the other but divorces itself from ancient practice when it is convenient to justify a change that it prefers. If you need reference material for the above please let me know. Sam + |
| quissum | Posted: 2007/8/9 13:06 Updated: 2007/8/9 13:06 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/2/18 From: Posts: 338 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Thomas Becket, on his accession to Canterbury, renounced the folly of his former sinful life for exclusive devotion to God and will go down in history as a martyr and a saint; Rowan Williams would have done well to imitate this worthy predecessor. Instead, it is evident that he never recanted or repented of statements and attitudes that are utterly at odds with the high office he holds, and has brought into the dust.
Consider a few of his published comments, referenced from David's link above: "Liz Stuart [author of Just Good Friends: Towards a Lesbian and Gay Theology of Relationships] is able to point meaningly [sic] and effectively to the image of Sophia as the connection-making, time-taking energy of God in the world, the divine "Spiderwoman" whose life is found in but not extinguished by the event of Jesus - Jesus in the community of those he loves and who love him"; or, "contemporary debates suggest that we are getting worse all the time, with our obsessive searches for purity, whether radical or conservative; or, referring to scriptural rejection of same-sex relations as “an abstract fundamentalist deployment of very ambiguous biblical texts." It is perhaps fitting, even poignantly ironic, that the Anglican Church which began to validate a lustful king’s dynastic demands is tottering to dissolution on the issue of sexuality. And yet, God’s first commandment, having blessed the Human [adam], male and female, was “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it,” clearly a prime directive of His creative purposes. Sexuality is at the very core of Creation, the vital principle of God’s order, reflecting the life-affirming purposes of the Creator. The entrance of sin and human rebellion with the consequent fall of the Creation did not invalidate God’s sexual commandment, although male dominance and pain in childbearing were added—and, in time, sexual perversion of every variety. Nor is it at all surprising that the depravity which marks our sinful natures should often find expression in sexual perversion, whether by fornication, adultery, incest, or homosexuality—all of which distort God’s model of one male and one female in lifelong, family-forming union. Typical of pagan religious practice has been a deification of the fertility principle without recognition of the sanctity of marriage which, as God’s Word tells us, is an image of God and His people, thus a holy, inviolable bond. To be sure, in His grace to us sinners who violate His ordinances, so in sexual transgression God will forgive and restore the penitent. However, God’s purposes for His creatures, as expressed in our gender distinction physically and psychically, as well as his revealed purposes in Holy Scripture, have not been abrogated or altered. The Old Testament story of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 14-19) and the oft cited sins of the pagan Egyptians and Canaanites to be rejected by God’s people are striking reminders of God’s holy abhorrence of perverted sexuality. In the New Testament, moreover, sexual purity and the sanctity of marriage are foundational principles set forth for believers by Christ and His apostles and held intact by the Church for two millennia. To depart from this teaching is to depart from the Faith of Christ and His Apostles, not to mention denying the clear evidence of nature and violating the witness of our own conscience. Verily, any individual, society, or ecclesiastical body who dares to do so violates God’s clear command and merits His righteous judgment. So, it is “about sex”—and for good reason—that judgment is falling on the Anglican Communion and all other christian-professing denominations (and societies) that are seeking to alter the clear teaching of Holy Scripture on human sexuality. The ‘sanctification’ of sexual perversion has been ritualized in countless ways: whether primitively in the deification of the fertility principle with sacred groves, pillars (=phalloi) and sacred prostitutes (male and female); or by human sacrifice and the shedding of ‘fertile’ blood; or, most recently, the consecration of practicing adulterers and homosexuals to priesthood and ‘marriage.’ It should come as no surprise that an aspect of nature so basic as sexuality could be both a blessing--as the gift of our Creator-God--and a curse to those who reject and despise the Creator and His Law. Likewise for the Anglican Communion, centered on a corrupt hierarchy, presided over by a corrupt Archbishop of Canterbury, espousing corrupt teaching, the 'cup of the Sodomites' seems nearly full, and God’s judgment is at hand. |
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/8/9 13:16 Updated: 2007/8/9 13:16 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Quissum,
An apt treatment my good man. It would be hard to add anything to it. Very well said. God's judgement indeed. Sam + |
| Rachmnnoff | Posted: 2007/8/9 13:26 Updated: 2007/8/9 13:26 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/3/15 From: Mauna Kea@13796 ft. Posts: 338 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... FrSam,
You so presciently hit the nail on the head in re WO. It is a heresy of the Nth order and a pity that WO has crept into the Church. Of course, Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox Church will never entertain the question of WO - thanks be to God. Otispage2 will be miffed at me for taking this position and I regret that his brow might be furrowed. He argues so cogently and concisely the homo question that he has my respect. Again, I thank you FrSam for sharing your keen insight. Respectfully, SR |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/8/9 13:41 Updated: 2007/8/9 14:05 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Let's set things straight, folks: Only the Eastern Orthodox can claim to use the word "Orthodox." The rest of us are either "Conservative or Ultra-Conservative." I tend to lean toward Ultra-Conservative , but in a limited way.
I'm not going to defend any bishop's action or inaction....that's not for me or anyone else to decide. Everyone of us is entitled to his or her own opinion, and I'd just as soon let it go at that. We are free to agree or disagree. I happen to share "Ultra-Orthodox" views with many of you, but I'm not about to let them get in the way of worshipping God as I see fit. Privately, I talk to Him without using a prayer book, since I don't feel that it's always necessary to do so except in corporate worship. A little latitude now and then doesn't hurt matters....so long as it doesn't go too far. The Anglican Communion in its present form is sick....and some way must be found to cure it. Cennydd |
| Climacus | Posted: 2007/8/9 13:57 Updated: 2007/8/9 13:57 |
Just can't stay away  Joined: 2007/2/19 From: Boston Posts: 86 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... "and the Archbishop of Canterbury will have no one to blame but himself."
I take issue with this statement. The current state of the Anglican church has little or nothing to do with the ABC. He isn't the Pope. Rather, the church has been festering with heresy and sin for the last several hundred years. In other words, EVERY Anglican is to blame for the current state of the Church, because they've all turned a blind eye to lukewarmness, supported faithless priests, bishops, and seminaries with their money, and have allowed things to snowball until now. |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/8/9 14:14 Updated: 2007/8/9 14:14 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Agreed! Rowan Cantuar shouldn't have to shoulder all of the blame. It's unfair to accuse him, since he's nothing more than a figurehead. The rot has come from within, and it needs to be excised! The problem is how to accomplish that!
Leave the Communion? For some, that might be the solution, but for others, it isn't. Working towards change from within might be the better thing to do, instead of attacking it from without. This is, after all, GOD'S Church....not ours to do with as we see fit. HE will decide....not us! We can only hope that what we do is the right thing to do, but we need to remember that He, and only He....is the Final Authority....the Final Arbiter. Cennydd |
| dturk | Posted: 2007/8/9 14:32 Updated: 2007/8/9 14:32 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/5/26 From: Posts: 416 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... The Anglican Communion is like a family of immigrants that long ago dispersed to a variety other countries, adopted other cultures and are now having a family reunion, after not having any contact each other for five generations.
This "communion" essentially consists of two groups with irreconcilible theology. The only thing that holds this mess together is a name and faltering inertia. Rowan Williams is a morally and theologically- challenged, ivory tower academic and dilletent who is totally devoid of any leadership skills. He is, at his core, a left-wing heretic who is trying to play the role of moderate and thus, is very unlikely to support any sort of orthodoxy, because he simply does not believe in any of it. Unless he forces himself to make a decisive move and does so very quickly, the Global South is going to take matters into their own hands. Rowan will then become totally irrelevant. Liberals can't build anything. Their standard modus operandi is to sneak their way into an existing organization and to exploit and then to destroy it. This is exactly what happened to TEC and the Anglican Communion. |
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/8/9 14:40 Updated: 2007/8/9 14:40 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... "Only the Eastern Orthodox can claim to use the word "Orthodox."
Untrue, though I have noticed that you used the big "O" in your post. The Eastern Orthodox no more own the word "orthodox" than the Roman Catholic Church can lay sole claim to the use of the word "catholic." If you look it up, the word "orthodox" has meaning and useage outside of the Eastern Church. Sam + |
| Baring-G | Posted: 2007/8/9 14:50 Updated: 2007/8/9 14:50 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2007/8/8 From: Republic of Florida Posts: 146 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Wow! After thirty years, they have finally gotten the message. The Congress of St. Louis was right after all! The root cause was Feminism and its far Left agenda has brought this nonsense situation in Anglicanism now. The Church of the Congress of St. Louis is in the process of reuniting- The Anglican Catholic Church,The United Episcopal Church, The Anglican Province of Christ The King are coming together. Conservatives, return to Holy Tradition and join us.
 |
| otispage2 | Posted: 2007/8/9 16:36 Updated: 2007/8/9 16:39 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 615 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... FrSam I believe you seriously dilute the matter citing the “woman” issue. The issue is homosexuality, not woman’s ordination.
Your bias against women may be right for your own belief, but it doesn’t map on the issue facing the Anglican Communion or TEC today. The major cause of the homosexual takeover was not the ordination of women – though that matter has been exploited by homosexual activists such as by Jack Spong. Bisexualism (for both males and females) appears to be the “closeted issue” for both bishops and priests who are not overtly gay or lesbian. And in many instances where they have now declared, their bisexuality preceded the eventual declaration. This was true with the Bishop of NH and others. The infiltration by homosexuals – not woman – is the major sin issue that has offended God, as certainly as God blessed and honored Mary in being the mother of Christ! (Theotokos ) (Rom. 1:26,27, Lev. 18:22, 20:13, 1 Cor. 6:9, 1 Tim. 1:10, Gen. 19: 1-9, Judg. 22:19,1 Kin. 14:24, Jude 7) |
| drklj | Posted: 2007/8/9 16:38 Updated: 2007/8/9 16:38 |
Just popping in Joined: 2006/9/11 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... I find it interesting that to most of the commentors on this site womans oridination and Homesexual accetance is the problem facing the Anglican comunion. I personally see the problem in that the majority of the leaders especially in the TEC do not accept Jesus as Lord and SaviorThe fact that the divinity of Jesus are not preached he even is thought dead in some epipiscopal churches is the root of the problem
I see a multitude of "orthdox" that need to exam themselves and see if they are not looking to themselves for answers rather than the guidance of the Holy Spirit which is also in question at TEC since they really don't believe in the Holy Trinity which is our one God. This is what we need to emphasize acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior and the Jesus is the one and only way to the Father. When we totally submit our will to his things will change and we can get on with spreading God's word which happens can be found in the authoritative word of God in the Bible. |
| sentinel | Posted: 2007/8/9 16:45 Updated: 2007/8/9 16:49 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/6/11 From: Posts: 263 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Quote:
To lose that historic office is a cost of such magnitude that God must be doing a new thing." Bp. Duncan, what a completely weak statement to make - you are starting to sound like the revisionists. God is not doing a "new thing" God never changes. post edited - ok, I was letting my mouth, err fingers, get away from me... |
| Causidicus | Posted: 2007/8/9 17:06 Updated: 2007/8/9 17:08 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/3 From: Posts: 1095 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... So, revisionism is spreading through the communion like morbus gallicus in Europe in 1494; if not treated soon the patient will go tertiary.
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| sentinel | Posted: 2007/8/9 17:30 Updated: 2007/8/9 17:30 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/6/11 From: Posts: 263 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... " I believe you seriously dilute the matter citing the “woman” issue. The issue is homosexuality, not woman’s ordination"
The issue is faithfulness to holy scripture The ordination of women as well as the open acceptance of sinful lifestyles go hand in hand because both are a blatant disregard of the teaching of Sctipture. I'm assuming that you are attempting to use the citation of God blessing Mary with being the Mother of Christ as an apologetic for WO. This is a gross mishandling of God's word. |
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/8/9 18:17 Updated: 2007/8/9 18:17 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... "Your bias against women may be right for your own belief...."
Nice try. This approach is a TEC tactic at its finest. I am not "biased" against women, I just believe that the Church catholic has done a fine job in defining their roles in the Churh prior to the 1960's and 70's, and that DOES NOT include women's "ordination." Just because I disagree with homosexuals doesn't make me homophobic. Just because I disagree with abortion doesn't make me "anti-choice". Just because I disagree with women's "ordination" doesn't mean I am biased or bigoted. Those approaches were tried on me in ECUSA and they didn't work. Don't call names. Stick to the subject. Support what you say with solid orthodox teachings of the Church, or we can just have a "feelings fest" where everyone can celebrate "diversity and tolerance", the very things that brought TEC to where it is now. Pax, Sam + |
| SixDays | Posted: 2007/8/9 19:08 Updated: 2007/8/9 19:08 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/2/23 From: Posts: 312 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... It is crystal clear to me that FrSam+ has hit the nail squarely on the head, as he is prone to do.
FrSam+, I commend you. Keep up the good work! SD |
| Frcorny | Posted: 2007/8/9 19:14 Updated: 2007/8/9 19:14 |
Quite a regular  Joined: 2005/2/20 From: Holy Cross, Warrensburgh, NY Posts: 67 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... What a joy to be in the fray again!
It is about OBEDIENCE to God on both the WO and sexuality issues! Men and women are different and serve different purposes. A look at the blueprints should make that pretty clear. And God has called males to the priesthood. That is the witness of Holy Scripture and the Holy Church throughput 2000 years. It is also the witness of the vast majority of Christianity throughout the world today. Let feelings and emotions go! Obey God! He knows what is good and natural. There are so many ministries in which women excel. There is no need to prove one's "worth" by demanding the right to celebrate the Mass. None of us are worthy. But, for whatever reason, God chose men to serve at His altar. If you want to know why, ask Him. AP |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/8/9 23:23 Updated: 2007/8/9 23:25 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... It now appears that we reasserters have gotten to the point where we....some of us, anyway....are fighting among ourselves....and this has got to stop forthwith!
How can we expect to call ourselves Christians if we resort to this? Don't you think it's time to act like Christians, instead of just talking like Christians? I do! A little agreement now and then would go a long way. It's time for a "time-out," folks! It is GOD'S Church, after all....not OURS! Cennydd |
| orgelmstr | Posted: 2007/8/10 0:06 Updated: 2007/8/10 0:06 |
Quite a regular  Joined: 2004/9/29 From: CT Posts: 48 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... "I tend to lean toward Ultra-Conservative , but in a limited way."
"It is GOD'S Church, after all....not OURS!" Cennydd, I don't know how you can hold both opinions in one brain. One would think that faith in God would require a person to accept all that the Almighty puts before us. But not you, no, you continue to pick and choose what pleases you. You want to look like a member of the Orthodox, but in actuality, you are a liberal, and unwilling to give up your liberal ways. Some day you really should figure out where you stand. This eating your cake and wanting to have it still sitting pretty on your plate is getting old. Worse than that, you have no credibility, since the only thing you really stand up for is yourself, while ECUSA continues to trash the Christian faith. Orgelmstr |
| otispage2 | Posted: 2007/8/10 0:25 Updated: 2007/8/10 0:30 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 615 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Respectfully I am not calling names, FrSam. I am giving my view on "nailing the issue" being decided.
Bias is based on belief, and your belief on the woman issue is the matter I think you are wrongly employing. How? By diverting the issue from where it belongs -- and that is the takeover of TEC and the Anglican Communion by homosexuals. You can point to when the boat started leaking -- but you appear not to have a practical solution how to stop the boat from sinking. How can you, when you are indentifying the wrong problem? I suggest those you criticize are those trying to save some from the sinking ship -- Duncan, et al! For you to point the finger at "women" diverts the issue from where it rightly belongs -- and I believe the homosexuals are pleased by the confusiion you introduce by your "opinion" -- no matter how sincerely held. I believe the issue ABC faces is political --- not religious -- and those who leave the Communion do so at the risk of losing the huge financial assets of TEC. The homosexual activists are betting that the count of dollars will be a greater factor in swaying ABC and the Communion than the religious argument on numbers of people in Africa. In any event, the woman argument within the religious argument -- given TEC's ignorance of Scripture -- is a historic nit. Sorry that I have offended you FrSam. (2Pete 1:2) |
| bpcranmer | Posted: 2007/8/10 0:44 Updated: 2007/8/10 0:44 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/4/14 From: PA Posts: 154 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Quote:
The Anglican Mission in America, of which Bishop Rodgers is a bishop in good standing, DOES "ORDAIN" WOMEN AS DEACONS. You're right at this point. But two items: deaconesses are an historical and Biblical order. And historically, Anglicanism has not handled the deaconate well, neither for males nor females and it definitely needs work. |
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/8/10 1:51 Updated: 2007/8/10 2:00 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Otispage2,
You have not offended me, I simply disagree, nothing personal. I feel that we are truly not communicating. I am not "diverting" the issue but looking at the whole picture. Nowhere have I said "the whole problem is the women", I have merely pointed out their role in the present mele'and the mistake that I believe +Duncan makes when he keeps "ordaining" them, and I don't think that placing the entire blame on the homosexuals alone is accurate as you assert. Many of the "homosexual activists" that you are so angry with in TEC are FEMALE "PRIESTS", and they use their positions of authority and influence to ram their agenda down the throats of people like you. I have consistently said that W"O" is only one of the "holes in the sinking ship" to use your metaphor. For +Duncan to launch a new boat with the holes of W"O" and the 1979 book in it is to condemn the new ship to the fate of the old one. You said that "you appear not to have a solution to keep the boat from sinking". Not true, I do have a solution but TEC doesn't want to be told to REPENT and return to her first love. Short of that there is no solution and I believe the ship will definitely sink. You can either jump on one that has a solid hull with no holes (orthodoxy), or you can leap on a "new one" with just a few holes inspired from the sunken vessel before it and perish (ACN, AMiA, et al). The choice is yours my friend. No offense taken here and an apology is not necessary, though I appreciate your spirit of humility. God Bless, Sam + |
| Keble | Posted: 2007/8/10 2:20 Updated: 2007/8/20 22:25 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/11/13 From: Posts: 206 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... The sad truth is that Fr. Sam is correct in that the +Duncan crowd is 30 years or so behind the curve.
Fear not, the non-jurors of the continuum welcome the ECUSA remnant - but your female clergy types may not pass beyond the altar rail. Keble |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/8/10 2:31 Updated: 2007/8/10 2:33 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Orgelmstr, I really couldn't care less about your opinion of me....God knows, I've heard worse! Liberal ways? Surely you jest!
I don't accept women's "ordination," I have a lot of misgivings about the so-called "1979 Book of Common Prayer," but I do like the service of Compline which was added....although some object to it, and I actually prefer the 1662 Book of Common Prayer versus the 1928 book. Also, I DO wish the Church would restore the Lay Order of Deaconess for those women who want to serve. I condemn the ordination and consecration of non-celibate gays, and I disapprove of them serving in positions of authority anywhere in the Church. I am not known as a Liberal in this diocese, and it might interest you to know that when the time comes to vote again to eliminate the Accession Clause in our Diocesan Constitution at our convention this December, I will vote as I did last December: FOR the amendment to eliminate that clause. I have been one of the most active proponents in this diocese for leaving TEC for many months, and I have no intention of changing my position for any reason. I hope I've made my position clear. Cennydd |
| chaps | Posted: 2007/8/10 2:32 Updated: 2007/8/10 2:32 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/2/11 From: Posts: 446 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... bpcranmer wrote:
“deaconesses are an historical and Biblical order.” Although that is true, it is misleading in the context of the discussion. As has been explained on other threads, deaconesses are not female deacons. The deaconesses in the Early Church did not do the same things as deacons – deacons were clergy (ordained into Holy Orders) in the Early Church, but deaconesses remained members of the laity and thus had no sacramental role whatsoever. Blessings, chaps |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/8/10 2:34 Updated: 2007/8/10 2:34 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... "Deaconesses are not female deacons." Exactly, chaps!
Cennydd |
| Keble | Posted: 2007/8/10 2:44 Updated: 2007/8/10 2:44 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/11/13 From: Posts: 206 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Cennydd
Please check your PM Keble |
| TheStudent | Posted: 2007/8/10 2:44 Updated: 2007/8/10 2:44 |
Just popping in Joined: 2007/1/2 From: Posts: 13 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... I have enjoyed this thread very much, and I appreciate the various comments being given and received here by you all. I am an Anglican priest who has left the Canadian Anglican Church. I just got to the point where much of what you are all saying (and I mean all of you from every side) came home to roost and it was time for me to evaluate soberly what it was I was doing.
The Network solution is not viable because of the various reasons already posited here; which I agree with, particularly wrt women's ordination. The continuing church hasn't grown in it's thirty odd years of existence and to my mind a plant that is alive should grow - especially if it is the church. Perhaps it was always meant to be a Bonzai tree? I mean no disrespect here at all, so please do not misunderstand me. Someone posted here that it is about Jesus Christ and I wholeheartedly agree to that. Each one of us as individuals is going to bow down before Christ on that last day and give a proper account of what we did with our time here that He paid for. What are you going to tell Him? For me, I couldn't continue in a church that has turned its back on the Gospel. The Body of Christ needs this schism to happen and I pray that through the breakup of this 'Communion' others will get a chance to truly repent and seek the continued healing and restoration Christ affords us all as children of God. What matters most is that we all tell a lost world the Good News of Jesus Christ. The Gospel is not a system or method, or theology or philosophy or way of worship...the Gospel is about the PERSON of Christ. So, the Anglican boat I was sailing in is sinking. So? Get in another viable boat and soldier on! I love the Anglican way of worship. I love the liturgy. I loved weekly and mid-week Eucharistic celebrations. I loved the old hymns. I loved the 1962 BCP. I loved being a servant of Christ as a priest. But you know what? I love Jesus more. Sometimes we have to let go of what we want in order to let God get what He wants. Thank you all for your comments thus far. |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/8/10 2:53 Updated: 2007/8/10 2:58 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... I just did, and if I were to consider going to a Continuing jurisdiction....and I might, if it becomes necessary....I'd take a look at the APA. There are a couple of parishes near my home.....one of which is 80 miles away. One is in Los Altos Hills (St Luke's Chapel), and the other is in Hollister. I know St Luke's well. Perhaps our diocese might make such a move once the bishop is deposed by Mme Schori. Who knows?
Cennydd |
| ZachS | Posted: 2007/8/10 3:56 Updated: 2007/8/10 3:57 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/5/1 From: Posts: 210 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... TheStudent: Splendid post. I'm a recently ex ACoC priest also. You are soooo right about letting go and letting God!
And further "Increasingly strident Anglican voices are being heard around the world indicating that it is not merely the Episcopal Church that is lost, but the Anglican Communion itself..." Exactly and finally! ZachS |
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/8/10 10:44 Updated: 2007/8/10 11:17 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... "The continuing church hasn't grown in it's thirty odd years of existence."
Simply untrue. Why do learned people such as yourself make statements like this? Is it just because you don't see us as a viable option? Do our numbers not match your standards of what is godly growth? I know you said, "I mean no disrespect here at all..", but when you make a drive-by statement like that what is your intention? Have you been to a continuing parish? Have you talked with our bishops about the growth they are seeing? The Continuum has grown quite a bit, ESPECIALLY since the Vicky Gene debacle. My parish, St. Thomas in Mountain Home, Arkansas is in the final stage of completing our brand new church building. We start painting next week. You are invited to come and see for yourself brother priest. If you do I'll pick up your hotel room. Here's a real invitation to come and see what Christ is doing in our midst. The United Episcopal Church of North America, of which I am a part, has grown by 3 parishes this year and we expect another 2 or 3 to be on board by the end of the year. Last year we were 25 parishes and we will end this year with 30, God willing. That is growth, albeit maybe insignificant in your eyes. I'm used to "hit and run" statments about the continuum because many here don't like the fact that we are around, but when something is false it is false. Some here value Anglican Communion membership over everything, but that doesn't devalue what God is doing in the continuum. You cannot truthfully say we have not grown in 30 years. I assume you said so because you just did not know what you were talking about. When TEC finally collapses we will STILL be here and growing, for God has used us to provide a home to many. Pax, Sam + |
| lkwells | Posted: 2007/8/10 12:37 Updated: 2007/8/10 12:37 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/2/19 From: Posts: 607 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Fr Sam is quite correct, and I can provide further data. My Diocese, Diocese of the South, Anglican Catholic Church, grew by a whopping 27% last year. This was partly explained by several existing parishes affiliating with the ACC, but virtually ALL of the old parishes of the diocese experienced significant growth. This is hardly a dying sect!
But for the sake of the argument, let's grant that the statement might be true (which it isn't). Just remember that PECUSA experienced no growth whatever and actually declined from 1789 until around 1830. The first bishop of New York (Prevoost) decided that the whole thing was a waste of time and stopped going to church. Then things turned around, and PECUSA grew more rapidly than the USA population up until 1968. (Coincidentally,that was the year that GC passed a canon authorizing the use of experimental liturgies, surprise, surprise) Since then TEC has shrunk. Does that dry period before 1830 mean that Seabury et al. were wrong to preserve an Anglican Church in the new republic? So the argument that the CC are not growing, while actually false, might just prove too much. It will certainly not work in favor of TEC institutional loyalists. While I'm at it, the neo-Anglican groups, with their Protestant church-growth mentality and fascination with big numbers, had better watch it. When the hoopla dies down as the public gets used to gay bishops, and they are left with work-priests in storefront churches as we have been, the megachurch model will prove irrelevant. I have already seen more than one AMIA plant fold up. Starting from scratch is not easy work. |
| lkwells | Posted: 2007/8/10 12:49 Updated: 2007/8/10 12:49 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/2/19 From: Posts: 607 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... "Fear not, the non-jurors of the continuum welcome the ECUSA remnant - but your female clergy types may not pass beyond the altar rail."
Actually, I would welcome some of those "female clergy types." I know a couple locally who would be an asset to our Church. I run into them frequently when I visit the hospital and we chat in a friendly way. If only they would get rid of their clerical collars, stop calling themselves "deacon" or "priest," adopt some badge of their ministry as deaconesses, then they could continue an invaluable role as commissioned lay workers. I could surely find plenty of ways for them to be useful in our parish. It's the praise bands that will not be welcome! |
| ZachD | Posted: 2007/8/10 13:12 Updated: 2007/8/10 13:12 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1791 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... for TheStudent,
Look for my PM (private message) by clicking on the "Inbox" icon in the left page column. |
| TheStudent | Posted: 2007/8/10 13:25 Updated: 2007/8/10 13:55 |
Just popping in Joined: 2007/1/2 From: Posts: 13 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Gentlemen,
I am speaking from my personal observations and discussions with continuing Anglican priests in Canada. I have visited a continuing church and worshipped there with them. I was approached long ago by the cathedral church in Ottawa at a time when the Anglican Church of Canada decided to 'affirm the integrity of adult same-sex relationships'. The local situation to which I use as a form of reference is this: there are a few congregations here that are being served by a team of older, retired priests; three to be exact. They serve diligently by going from parish to parish on each Sunday and at other times throughout the week offering services. This is commendable, but it is no way to grow a church. It sustains a church. The largest of these parishes has about forty parishioners, most have twenty or less. It has been this way for a long time. The people in the pews are being fed and watered in the Word of God and in the Sacraments, but they do not seem to be evangelizing. There seems to be no impetus to bring others to Christ. I could be wrong in this. I am attending a church that started in 1999 with 12 people in someone's basement. That church has since grown to well over 350 and has done two church plants. They are evangelical, reformed in their theology and charismatic in their worship style. They belong to a family of churches which are located throughout the US and in a few other countries; growing at a steady pace. Communion is celebrated each month and we all get together in small community groups each week for fellowship, accountability, growth, and encouragement. The men are men and the women are women. Christ is central, the Bible is the Word of God, the Sacraments are respected, the discipline of the church is present as well. Here you have the three marks of a true Christian church: (1) the Word of God faithfully preached; exposited and made plain, (2) the Sacraments; Lord's Supper and Baptism, (3) real church discipline. Anyway, the continuing church seems to me to be a church that has Chaplains attending their own flocks, hoping that they will magically grow exponentially in number. I once read that what defines this continuing arm of Anglicanism is what they stand 'against' and not what they stand 'for'. This was found in a document I Googled that was someone's Master's thesis, so it shouldn't be hard for others to find and read. There should be the same amount of growth in the continuing church as there is in these other Christian bodies don't you think? If not, what's the disconnect? Why aren't the continuing churches growing as well as these others? How many new priests are being prepared? How many are being paid full-time for their work of preaching the Gospel (which is a Biblical indicative--one who preaches the Gospel should be paid for it by those who hear it). One priest I spoke with here commented that he is one of the last members of the SSJE in Canada and there does not appear to be any 'new blood' as he called it, coming into the brotherhood. Is this sad? Yes, it is indeed. All this to say, where is God adding to His church? Where is He causing growth to occur? I'm not talking about the popcorn Protestant latest-fad emerging church Vineyard Willow Creek hyped type of growth...real growth within one's self and local church body. I just don't see any evidence of it in the continuing church. I do agree with your assessment and prediction about the neo-Anglican groups, and that is why I am not a Network member. At the end of the day, the Lord will place us where He most needs us to be, all for His greater glory and honour. (I should add that I have also read that great little book "The King's Highway" by George D.Carleton [basically a treatise on the continuing Anglican church and its beliefs] and "Women and the Apostolic Ministry?" by G. Richmond Bridge. I would recommend to all Anglicans the following book "The Panther and the Hind: A Theological History of Anglicanism" written by Aidan Nichols, O.P.) |
| frmarkcj | Posted: 2007/8/10 15:01 Updated: 2007/8/11 0:40 |
Just can't stay away  Joined: 2004/1/5 From: Kennesaw, GA Posts: 132 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Church growth does not consist of sheep stealing. In other words, church growth, denominational growth, diocese growth, etc., is only real growth when lost sinners are converted and baptized; when new brothers and sisters are born into Christ. Church growth is not when one parish in one branch of Anglicanism gets disillusioned and quits and joins another branch of Anglicanism.
My Diocese has grown by five parishes within the last twelve months, but the Church of Christ did not necessarily grow. Brothers and Sisters this is really an important distinction to make. For if we are only focused on the former and not on the latter then we are seriously deceiving ourselves. Let's face it, most Anglicans and Episcopalians of whatever stripe do NOT know how to evangelize or share the Gospel of Jesus with someone in order to lead them to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, to lead them to repentence and to seek forgiveness of their sins. We can argue about WO and Prayer Book issues till the cows come home and meanwhile lost sinners will perish and go to hell while we are doing so. Do we not get it yet?! For those of you who are so stuck on the 28 BCP how many adult baptisms have you done this year in your parish? Come on, fess up! For you priests who are so hung up on being the true Coninuers, how many people have you personally lead to repentence and faith in Jesus outside of the pulpit in the past two months? Again, fess up! If the answer is zero, are you really being Apostolic? And the same thing holds true for those who so adamantly hold to WO and the 79 Prayer Book. What about you? How many adult conversions have you been privileged to be used by the Lord in in the past few months? If the answer is zero, what is Apostolic about that? Enough of this wrangling. The real issue in TEC and in the entire One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is the authority of Scripture. Any other issue is secondary. What saith the Lord? Get your Greek New Testaments out and all of your lexicons and other grammatical helps, and you will see that you can prove a case for women deacons or deaconesses in the pastoral epistles. Period. Or, you can prove a case against them. Period. Now move on and admit that all of us this side of heaven see in a glass darkly and get about the business of carrying out the Great Commission. I have been to 79 services where the music was wonderful and uplifting and then the priest or bishop could not preach his way out of a wet paper bag and I wanted to get up and push him out of the way and take over. I have been to 28 services that were so dry and boring that I wondered why anyone would ever want to come to that church again. I love the 28 BCP for private use. For public use give me the 79 anytime. I can eat the hay and spit out the thorns. But you know what? THAT'S MY OPINION! Let it rest. I'll stand before my Maker with a clear conscience. Perhaps what we really need to be doing instead of arguing and getting on our tree stumps and pontificating, is to start praying for real revival in our parishes and dioceses and for a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit such as was seen in the great Welsh revivals. Perhaps what we need to do is start a season of prayer, fasting, and real repentence for our own short comings as clergy and laity for having failed to be Apostolic in our life and witness. Just some thoughts. ++Mark |
| otispage2 | Posted: 2007/8/11 3:29 Updated: 2007/8/11 3:30 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 615 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Yes ++Mark, "The real issue in TEC and in the entire One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is the authority of Scripture"
But the "real issue" for ABC and the Anglican Communion is political -- because Scripture is ignored! That is why the schism is a reality, and those following Scripture must depart -- for the homosexuals and money will prevail. Please God, I pray I am wrong. But I believe, following Scripture (Rom 1:18-32), that TEC and the Anglican Communion, as now formed, are being "thrown over" to their political exigencies, and those are not of God! |
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/8/11 11:19 Updated: 2007/8/11 11:58 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... TheStudent,
At least you admit that your statement came from your "own personal experience" and is not based on any facts "on the ground" as they say these days. Your statement, however, remains untrue. Beware of using "personal experience" as a sole guide in decision making. You can see where that very thing got TEC. Pax, Sam + |
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/8/11 11:54 Updated: 2007/8/11 12:03 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Otispage 2,
Earlier you said, "The problem is not women's "ordinations"- it is the homosexual agenda in TEC!!" Did you read David's "Digest" for this week? As you know I took issue with your assertion that one was a seperate problem from the other. I refer you to David's Digest and the paragraph that starts with "A VOL reader, The Rev. Fred-Munro," as he cites a bishop's experience at the convention when women's "ordination" was rammed through. The facts of the politics of that action reveal involvement in that convention with the following groups: 1) NOW- The National Organization of Women 2) Integrity- TEC Gay Lobby group 3) Roman Catholic Feminist organizations Radical feminism working hand in hand with "the gay agenda" as you call it to make women's "ordination" a reality in TEC, with the resulting payback of gay "clergy" acceptance. No "bias" against women, just following the facts where they lead. As I said earlier, one entity cannot be divorced from the other. I would be interested to know your thoughts after you read that piece. Peace, Sam + |
| TheStudent | Posted: 2007/8/11 13:15 Updated: 2007/8/11 13:18 |
Just popping in Joined: 2007/1/2 From: Posts: 13 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... FrSam+,
No, I said that it was from my personal observations and discussions (which were done 'on the ground')...not experience...please do not put other words in place of what I have put down. You can see where that very thing got the TEC. The 'continuing church' has NOT significantly grown given the amount of time it has had to get its act together and preach the Gospel among the nations, making new converts to Christianity. I stand by that observation and others have affirmed this via private email to me. One person asked me why I didn't go with the ACCC. I seriously prayed and considered it, and I mean very seriously, but in the end I could not reconcile its theology with that of the Bible. If the book "The King's Highway" (which was recommended to me as a good source of ACCC belief for both ordained and lay; being required reading for all) is what ACCC belief and practice is, I can't do it. ++Mark is bang on with his comments and observations and to that I offer him a heart-felt 'Amen'. |
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/8/11 14:10 Updated: 2007/8/11 14:42 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Okay Student,
Your personal "observations and discussions" do not fall under your experience with the topic at hand and your statement on our "lack of growth"?? Okay, I will not try to change your mind, for it all boils down to what you think "significant growth" is. So what is significant in your eyes? What's the magic number in your mind that would legitmize our existence? Maybe GENUINE growth IS small in its speed and numbers. I seem to remember Jesus starting with only 12 (just like your 1999 church--What if you used the same criteria with them in 2000 or 2001?). In reference to ++Mark's comments I say once again, the effective work of the Holy Spirit cannot always be gauged by numbers, be that baptisms, "decisions", and or whatever. I have lead people to Christ outside the pulpit (in the last two months, as if that means something) and they were NOT even Anglican and one of them had already been baptized as an infant. So does that one count?? More than one person has joined my parish that DID NOT come from a TEC parish. If there is "sheep stealing" or "pew swapping" going on it is not because I have worked undercover to snatch people from TEC, and if they do come from that church I count them no less significant than those who were unchurched. They come willingly on their own and most of them are maturing in Christ since they have left. Too bad there's not a number for sanctification that people can measure. I am responsible to preach the Gospel and take care of those entrusted to my cure. I am not responsible for the results (numbers) for it is God who gives the increase. I plant, but he waters and makes it grow. The truth is we can never be sure "how many" we have lead to Christ for some of those seeds won't grow until later. I have also seen churches succeed in the numbers game with many "decisions" and baptisms, adult and otherwise, and then watched as 6 months later many of those folks are nowhere to be found. High numbers DO NOT indicate God's approval one way or the other. The true measurement of one's ministry is the faithfulness in which he preaches the Gospel and the Word of God. If a man pours his heart into his ministry and in the preaching of the Word- and not a soul responds to it- it is NOT a reflection of whether or not he is "being Apostolic". If so, St. Paul could be counted as a failure at times. I respect ++Mark, but I hope he doesn't judge his clergy based on markers like these. God bless you were you choose to light, Sam + |
| ZachS | Posted: 2007/8/11 15:20 Updated: 2007/8/11 15:44 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/5/1 From: Posts: 210 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... ++Mark & FrSam+
"The real issue in TEC and in the entire One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is the authority of Scripture" No. The entire One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is where the authority of Scripture (ie. The Word) IS the bedrock for regenerated (born again) believers. You get my point? Blessings In the Messiah Jesus ZachS+ |
| Butch | Posted: 2007/8/11 16:35 Updated: 2007/8/11 16:35 |
Just popping in Joined: 2004/2/14 From: Posts: 16 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... As much as we (the orthodox) want to see a realigned Anglican Communion, what actually happens the day after Sept. 30, 2007? The Global South Primates will find it financially prohibitive to have an immediate meeting to make a determination about the Communion. How long do you think it will take for them to get together and make a decision (question to David)?
|
| DomWalk | Posted: 2007/8/11 16:57 Updated: 2007/8/11 17:50 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/6/9 From: Left Coast, USA Posts: 619 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... TheStudent:
I've found Peter Toon's writings on the matter to be helpful. A quote: "If my old friend, the Australian Bishop, John-Charles, who taught with me at Nashotah House in the early 1990s, is correct in what he states, then the Continuing Anglican Church(es) are not really Anglican in any historical meaning of the word, for they have rejected the classic, historical formularies of the Anglican Way and adopted other formularies which take them into a kind of half-way point between The Anglican Way and both Rome and Orthodoxy." http://pbs1928.blogspot.com/2007/07/sin-is-key-to-present-state-of-our.html |
| Anggrl | Posted: 2007/8/11 18:13 Updated: 2007/8/11 18:13 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/30 From: Posts: 176 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... I have so many thoughts to all of the comments here. I can tell everyone that I was at one time in favor of women's ordination, abortion, etc. I was still politically conservative in many ways. At any rate, I attended an Episcopal Church but never read my Bible. I encountered Jesus Christ when I picked up the Bible and read all 4 Gospels in their entirety during Lent & I've never been the same. I have come to realize that WO was a huge mistake & I've also come to understand that I am to submit to my husband's leadership of our marriage/household. I can truly say that doing things my way & not God's way in the early days of our marriage nearly landed us in divorce court. We joined a REC because we could no longer be Episcopalian in good conscience. Now, I'm NO bra burner (not anymore, anyway) BUT one of the probs that I have with the REC is that women don't seem to have clear opportunities for leadership. Women are not allowed to serve on the vestry, read Scripture in church, etc. Girls are not allowed to serve as acolytes. It seems like the only thing that women are "allowed" to do is to organize potluck dinners & sing in the choir. It is frustrating as I can't sing. So where do I fit in? Where do my girls fit in? I think that it is a major turnoff for visitors when they walk in & see that women are clearly not allowed a place in worship or leadership (not talking about ordination) of the church. In addition, I find that everyone there seems to be pretty content with trad worship but not very growth oriented. There seems to be little support for outreach, youth ministries, etc. I suppose that is in part because people are tired/busy, etc. but our parish hasn't really grown even though we DO have a # of young people. Seems like there is an awful lot of apathy there. Just my 2 cents for what its worth.
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| frmarkcj | Posted: 2007/8/11 18:41 Updated: 2007/8/11 18:41 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2004/1/5 From: Kennesaw, GA Posts: 132 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Sam+ You missed my point completely if you think I am concerned about numbers. I had my fill of that in my SBC days. But you and I share a common bond I believe outside of church ministry. And the people we deal with in our secular (for lack of a better term) jobs could care less about WO and Prayer Books. You and I differ on the issue of WO as far as deacons are concerns, we agree on the matter of priests. But could you and I not be in communion with one another in a cause to further the cause of Christ to see lost sinners come to Christ?
You and I use different Prayer Books. But if you knew my view of Holy Scripture you would pobably think that I make many of the so-called orthodox Anglicans look like liberals. If we lived in the same town and were on the same force, could you not work with me on an evangelistic ministry at the county jail? Could you not share the Eucharist with me? This is what I am talking about. There is this virus strain going around these days that has infected folks that makes them give off an attitude of "I am more Anglican than you. I am a true Anglican, you're not." My Brother+, you have my respect for several reasons, but most of all because you are a true brother in Christ who is contending for the faith once delivered to the saints. Keep up the good fight of the faith. ++Mark |
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/8/11 18:43 Updated: 2007/8/11 18:43 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Domwalk,
Not that anybody cares about accuracy, I just would like you to know that this quote does not accurately describe me or anyone I know in the United Episcopal Church of North America. I have realized this week that there are basically two types of posters here: The convinced and the convinced. The first type is convinced that semi-orthodoxy is acceptable and they are free to pick and choose the definition of "Anglican" that they like and go with it. The second type is convinced that classical Anglican orthodoxy minus the innovations of the 1970's are the way to go and most of these guys are continuers. Since my last few conversations I have looked at the exchanges and see that each person (myself inlcuded) just reassert their position to the other who is convinced that they are right (often times myself). I question the value of all of this, especially considering the time that it takes to read and reply. I would be much better off spending that time in God's Word and in prayer, something I complain that I don't have enough time to do. I was wrong and have not been using my down time to the best use. For that I will repent after this, hopefully my final post. I have tried before to leave this forum and found that I missed the good parts, but the present atmosphere has now become so toxic that both of the convinced often turn and devour each other. That cannot be God's will. I will continue to be a continuer no matter what moderates or the merely conservative think. I know the truth about us and where I have been called to serve. I do not care if others do not see us as sufficeintly Anglican because of our lack of Rowan's approval. I wish everybody well and will now turn to examine myself to see what God would have me do with my available time. God's Blessings to all (including the TEC "stayers"), God have mercy on me, a sinner. Sam + |
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/8/11 20:50 Updated: 2007/8/11 22:54 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... ++Mark,
No longer posting here. Sent you a PM or you may go direct at samseamans@hotmail.com Pax, Sam + |
| lkwells | Posted: 2007/8/11 23:49 Updated: 2007/8/11 23:49 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/2/19 From: Posts: 607 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... DomWalk: This statement of Toon's needs to be parsed carefully. We have here a skewed statement, HIS very subjective spin of Bishop John-Charles's plea for unity amongst those Continuing Anglicans who derive from the Chambers succession and have not compromised their commitment to the Affirmation of St Louis. But thanks be to God, Peter Toon is not authorized to define Anglicanism. As far as we can ascertain, Toon is still a clergyman of TEC and his take on CC matters is of no importance or interest to us. He can go back to his project of re-writing the Prayer Book in politically correct unisex language.
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| CalAggie | Posted: 2007/8/12 15:26 Updated: 2007/8/12 15:26 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/4/9 From: Davis, CA Posts: 156 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... I was looking for Anglican books at the Main Library the other day and I as I was trolling through the stacks I found this one book that made me laugh: "Anglicanism: The Answer to Modernity". Oh that gave me a good chuckle. It is precisely that which it is not. The insidious infection of seculuarism has battered her walls and the Church has failed to man the parapets and has let her sneak in over the wall. Too many a bishop has ceased to be the good shepherd but has been the lazy one, flirting with his lover beneath the tree while the lambs are free to wander, or worse, have become the wolves themselves. This cancer creeps ever slowly, and disguises itself with words like "Open Mindedness" "Caring" and "Diversity". Before you know it, the Church like some poor trout has taken the fly and is hooked. As a flock that is made up of goats and sheep, marinos and suffolks, it has never been Anglicanism's job to set out a definite doctrine. She has worked, only because she has for so long stayed faithful to the scriptures, but modernity seems to have bested her. The church has failed to hold fast to scripture in this PC era and has become as arrogant as the Church she had long divorced. The underlying problem is the Church's perception of sin and grace. She believes that she has the ability, dare I say right, to say what is right and meet in God's eyes.
The danger with this is the young man, who grows up an Episcopalian affirming everything man does as good based upon the theology of innovating bishops. He dies and is met by Saint Thomas who asks to see his hands, but without the wounds of his own cross, how than can he claim to have been saved by christ. The boy is baffled and asks Thomas, why if he lived a good life and did everything he was suppossed to do. Thomas sighs and tells the young man, you have not repented for your sins, nay you did not heed the lord's teaching to beware of adders and wolfs. I believe God will watch over his faithful and we will all see better days in the years to come. But the Anglican Communion as we know it will probably be no more. This motley crew will go their ways, the goats with the goats, the sheep with the sheep. I personally think, that The Episcopal Church should have been excommunicated formally by the Global South and allied Bishops of the West a long time ago. The Fathers would probably have done the same. The threat of Excommunication no longer is employed these days... Perhaps not even the entire church, Ms. Schori and Vicki Gene, much as Photius was to send a message. So long as we keep to the word and the faith of the fathers, we will be saved. |
| Guardian | Posted: 2007/8/12 19:15 Updated: 2007/8/12 19:18 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/9/21 From: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 184 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... For several months I have been thinking about the following question. When the schism occurs there will no doubt be an adequate number of priests. However, at some point in the not to distant future, new ones will be needed. Who is going to establish the seminaries? Do you think each Anglican group will do the same as the REC and create their own or perhaps two major ones will be established based on the question of WO?
Guardian |
| recchip | Posted: 2007/8/12 22:14 Updated: 2007/8/12 22:14 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/2/23 From: Fairfax Virginia Posts: 172 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Guardian,
I see the Pro-WO people using Trinity and the others using either ours (RES, Cramner House, Cummins) or possibly Nashotah. The ACA (which is one of our parters in FACA) has reccommended that their postulants consider RE Seminary in Blue Bell PA (and I would assume that that would apply to Cramner House and maybe, Cummins). |
| recchip | Posted: 2007/8/12 22:29 Updated: 2007/8/12 22:29 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/2/23 From: Fairfax Virginia Posts: 172 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Anggrl,
Hello Fellow REC'r. I read your comments and they made me wonder. As far as I know (and believe me, I checked) there is nothing in the Constitution and Cannons of the REC which prohibits female Vestrypersons, Wardens or LECTORS (as opposed to Lay-readers which is an office which "leads worship in the absence of the priest"). In fact, they had to pass a regulation which required AT LEAST HALF of the delegates to Diocese and General Convention to be male. Some parishes were electing only (or mostly) women and they wanted some men there(GRIN!!). As to the "acolyte" thing, that again is up to the individual rector/vicar. The rector has total control over the conduct of the worship and could allow or prohibit females, kids with freckles or people with glasses from being acolytes. Not that most would but they COULD. Now as to the women only doing Choir and Food, you have got to be kidding. The major thing that the ladies of the church do (other than getting their husbands to church on time-GRIN) is to run the Altar Guild. It is suicide for a man including the priest to try to involve themselves in the business of the Altar Guild. (GRIN). Chip in Fairfax, VA P.S. Where are you located? Your profile did not say. You make at least the fifth REC'r whose posts I have seen. We have yours truly in Fairfax VA, JRoss in New Jersey, Guardian in Arkansas and one other person from my parish who very occasionally posts. |
| Anggrl | Posted: 2007/8/13 1:54 Updated: 2007/8/13 1:54 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/30 From: Posts: 176 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Hello Fellow REC'r. I read your comments and they made me wonder. As far as I know (and believe me, I checked) there is nothing in the Constitution and Cannons of the REC which prohibits female Vestrypersons, Wardens or LECTORS (as opposed to Lay-readers which is an office which "leads worship in the absence of the priest"). In fact, they had to pass a regulation which required AT LEAST HALF of the delegates to Diocese and General Convention to be male. Some parishes were electing only (or mostly) women and they wanted some men there(GRIN!!). As to the "acolyte" thing, that again is up to the individual rector/vicar. The rector has total control over the conduct of the worship and could allow or prohibit females, kids with freckles or people with glasses from being acolytes. Not that most would but they COULD.
Interesting. I had no idea. The whole thing does bother me a lot. I'm really getting tired of feeling locked into the proverbial closet.  I sometimes feel like I have walked into a time machine & been transported back to the 1950's when I'm at our church. Male lectors, male chalice bearers, male ushers, male acolytes, male vestry. The whole thing is pretty ridiculous, but I put up with it for lack of being able to come up with any better ideas. It still beats the nuttiness going on in ECUSA by a mile. OTOH, our parish is missing out on the talents/gifts of 50% of the parish. OH, and I'm not trying to be a pain, but I'm not really all that into the Altar Guild, either. Looks like I'll have to stick with organizing pot luck dinners. (sigh) |
| NashotahB | Posted: 2007/8/13 12:36 Updated: 2007/8/13 12:36 |
Not too shy to talk  Joined: 2006/5/27 From: Posts: 27 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Zach, I think you're saying the same thing as +Mark and Sam+, just in another way. The point is, if Yeshua is not the foundation, we build on sand, and TEC is proof of that.
I have a query re: deacons. Historically, when were deacons first "ordained?" Were they not originally appointed? Women were deaconesses in the early church, but certainly not considered as part of any 'sub-priesthood' as it were. And when did 'ordination' as a deacon become a prerequisite to the priesthood? What do your historical documents tell us, and when will you return to the original ministry of service for deacons, do you think ... ever? Tikvah |
| patulous | Posted: 2007/8/13 13:20 Updated: 2007/8/13 13:20 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/5/18 From: Posts: 1778 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Matthew 24:2-4 NKJV
2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. The Word is true. Jesus proclaimed an end of the age and TEC has started the end to happen. Do not believe anything from TEC. Rowan Williams sounds lost and I believe that he will resign when he cannot make the proper decision and throw the episcopal church out. Bless you all, |
| recchip | Posted: 2007/8/13 16:51 Updated: 2007/8/13 16:51 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/2/23 From: Fairfax Virginia Posts: 172 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... AngGrl,
You mentioned that you have only male chalace bearers. That is a subset of LayReader (which IS limited to males.) Having said that, since you mentioned that the ASA of your parish is 35, there is really no reason to have any chalice bearers other than the priest!! As I said before, there is nothing in the cannons which prohibit females on the vestry, your parish's bylaws MIGHT. You should check. Many parishes don't prohibit it outright but the ladies just don't want to "run." I know that at our parish that none of our ladies are "chomping at the bit" to be on the vestry. Chip |
| Helena | Posted: 2007/8/13 23:35 Updated: 2007/8/13 23:39 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2006/7/16 From: Posts: 75 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Anggrl,
I understand your desire to use your gifts in the REC you are attending. I also am attending an REC as a "refugee" but have decided that it is not suitable for Episcopalian converts to dictate the religious practices of the rescuing vessel of Christ. I say "converts" because that is what we actually are, rather than sources of information for a church that has been doing the right thing for the past 100+ years. The REC has gained its strength from being faithful to the Word of God above all else in that time. My suggestion for the two of us would be to pray for understanding of both the REC and our own motivations. There is much to be said for encouraging the men to be our spiritual leaders. We can be encouragers and church community builders as well as have a ministry with the women while modeling Christian humility and the joyful reality of our salvation (healing) in Jesus. This is no small ministry. Finally, I realize now that I am more REC than TEC, since I don't think I would be comfortable anymore seeing a woman on the altar. I say this even though I know of several dedicated women who have been lay eucharistic ministers. I need a BIG break from all the trouble the New Age priestesses have caused. I see above that they can be lectors at times. I didn't know that, but it sounds good to me. I wish you a successful adjustment period to Anglican orthodoxy. |
| recchip | Posted: 2007/8/14 0:56 Updated: 2007/8/14 0:56 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/2/23 From: Fairfax Virginia Posts: 172 |
Re: It's The Anglican Communion, Not Just The Episco... Helena,
Welcome Fellow REC'r. I am so happy that you have found a home in our wonderful fellowship. Isn't it wonderful to be able to go to church on Sunday and not have to wonder whether you will hear the Gospel or whether you will hear some PC blather (like in ECUSA). Chip P.S. Where do you attend? Which parish? You make 6 "admitted" REC'rs who post regularly or semi-regularly on VOL. |
