THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH WILL BANKRUPT ORTHODOX PARISHES THAT OPPOSE THEM
By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
July 2, 2007
The strategy of Episcopal Church leaders, lead by Presiding Bishop Katherine Jefferts Schori and her attorney David Booth Beers, is to go after orthodox dioceses and churches and litigate them into bankruptcy rather than allowing them to leave the Episcopal Church with their properties, says the president and CEO of the American Anglican Council (AAC).
Canon David C. Anderson told VirtueOnline that it is now apparent that the strategy of Mr. Beers is to spend millions of dollars, or whatever it takes, to keep properties from leaving the grip of the Episcopal Church. Liberal dioceses, with the assistance of the national church, will sue repeatedly until they win.
"The Episcopal Church (TEC) will probably sue everyone - that is to be expected. Even if TEC can't win consistently on law or on facts, it appears that they will sue anyway, to bankrupt parish churches and perhaps dioceses in legal defense. If a church or diocese can't afford to stay in court, however well they may (or may not) have law or facts on their side, they lose by default," he wrote in the AAC's weekly email message to subscribers.
Diocesan Bishop J. Jon Bruno has sued three orthodox parishes formerly in the Diocese of Los Angeles for their property. St. James Church had successfully won the right to retain their properties in two lawsuits in a lower court decision, but recently faced another round of litigation with the diocese winning on appeal.
Since the Court of Appeals decision went against two other California Court of Appeals decisions, one in 1981 and one in 2004 the California law is now in confusion. The case will need to go forward to the State Supreme Court.
In a victory for the Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles, a three-judge state appeals panel upheld the diocese's claim to the buildings and other property. of three conservative parishes that had severed their ties with the diocese.
The unanimous decision by a panel of the appeals court in Santa Ana reversed lower court rulings in the case impacts St. James Church in Newport Beach, All Saints Church in Long Beach and St. David's Church in North Hollywood.
"I believe this is a conclusive statement that the property will come back to us and that the lower court will be directed by this opinion," said Bruno.
Eric Sohlgren, lead lawyer for the three parishes, called the decision an anomaly, saying it ran counter to what he described as nearly 30 years of legal precedent in California. "Church property disputes have been looked at through neutral principles: who has the title to the property, who bought it, who maintains it and what state statutes say," he said.
"What the court said here was that if a hierarchical church wants to take control of local church property, all it has to do is pass a rule." Another parish, St. John's Fallbrook, and its priest, the Rev. Don Kroeger, face a third round of litigation from revisionist San Diego Bishop James Robert Mathes.
Twice the courts have rebuffed the diocese in its attempt to take the property back from the parish and its priest. In a letter to the clergy of the diocese, Mathes said that when canon law is breached and "all efforts to remedy the violation are rebuffed, it is necessary to use the civil courts."
Said Anderson, "This raises the serious question as to where the Episcopal Church is getting the money from to do all this litigation. Will someone crack open the Church Pension Fund and raid the pensions of liberals and conservatives to fund the litigation? Only time will tell.
Will someone crack open the Trust Funds of TEC and use their money for the litigation?" Two things are certain, TEC will continue litigating, and the faithful will not be deterred by such action, Anderson stated.
"It is a tragedy of the first order that a presiding bishop who preaches the "gospel" of Millennium Development Goals to save the poorest of the poor, is willing to spend millions of dollars litigating for properties that, at the end of the day, may only have a dozen people left in them."
Anderson cited the example of St. Paul's, Brockton, Mass. a parish that left the Episcopal Church and tried to retain the property and buildings that housed a massive social outreach to the community.
Activist pro-gay bishop Tom Shaw spent $2 million to keep the buildings from falling into the hands of its rector, the Rev. Dr. James Hiles, but the victory was pyrrhic and short lived. Hiles took 98% of the congregation and left to plant a new church. The church has a mere dozen parishioners left. St. Paul's "famed" kitchen, which fed hundreds each week, was shut down in 2005 for sanitary reasons. Rodents and fire caused eviction of the only ethnic group from the education building in 2006. A "For Sale" sign can now be seen out front of the building. The full story can be accessed here: http://tinyurl.com/3cynx3
"Mrs. Schori keeps reiterating that parishes are held in trust for future generations of Episcopalians, but there seems to be very little evidence that there will be future generations of Episcopalians.
There are less than 800,000 practicing Episcopalians now and that figure is dropping almost weekly with fleeing parishes and parishioners," said Anderson.
Anderson, whose organization represents some 80,000 constituents across the U.S. believes that a major exodus of Episcopalians will begin after the Sept. 30 deadline set by the Primates in Tanzania requesting the Episcopal Church's House of Bishops to "make an unequivocal common covenant" that they will not authorize same-gender blessings or confirm a candidate for bishop who is living in a same-gender relationship.
They also asked that no consents be given such a person unless some new consensus on these matters emerges across the Communion. "Based on the evidence and the actions of recent HOB meetings it is clear that the TEC has no intention of honoring that request. As a result more people will leave The Episcopal Church including the possibility of whole dioceses," said Anderson.
"It is clear we are reaching a point of critical mass. The Diocese of San Joaquin will vote one way or another to leave later this year. The Diocese of Albany will call a special convention after Sept. 30. Does Mr. Beers think he can litigate against entire dioceses as well as just parishes? If he does it will be a public relations disaster of the first order, reported in all the major media throughout the country.
Whatever happens, faithful Episcopalians will continue to leave with or without their parishes and form new ecclesial bodies and no amount of litigation will bring them back." Anderson went on to say that he is encouraged by the actions of faithful orthodox Episcopalians.
"The orthodox have all been wanting a new Province, but the question is how to get from where we are to where we need to be. We are seeing the birthing of what will be the future House of Bishops of a new entity, albeit a little ways still down the road. One of the dilemmas of being Anglican is that we need bishops, both for sacraments and for bold orthodox leadership, and we need a critical mass to be acquired to help things really move.
With new bishops being consecrated, together with the Anglican Communion Network bishops who might with their dioceses choose to realign away from TEC, a critical mass would be in place for some dramatic things to happen.
"I believe some exciting things are ahead. I am encouraging people to be optimistic, though real battles are obviously also ahead. At the end of the day the issues will not be about money and buildings, but 'the faith once for all delivered to the saints.'"
"Mr. Beers may bankrupt churches, even dioceses, but he and the leadership of the Episcopal Church cannot or will not stop the ongoing hemorrhaging of The Episcopal Church," concluded Anderson.
The American Anglican Council is a founding signatory to Common Cause Partners, and as a non-judicatory is present as an advocacy, educational, informational and diplomatic organization.
The AAC has 27 AAC regional chapters, 333 official affiliate parishes and 39 affiliate ministries and reaches 43,000 individuals through its Encompass newsletter. A weekly electronic update goes out to more than 23,000 email addresses.
END
| Poster | Thread |
|---|---|
| daveball | Posted: 2007/7/2 19:56 Updated: 2007/7/2 19:56 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/12/18 From: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 2377 |
Such an un-Christian strategy and course of action is certainly believable from the un-Christians who inhabit 815. The hypocrisy is breathtaking. However, that's the way they apparently intend to play it. This seems the ecclesiastical equivalent of "scorched earth policy".
I am certainly no lawyer but it seems to me that if they lose enough cases wouldn't the courts eventually rule additional suites as being without merit or frivelous? As an alternative, what would happen if a group of faithful entered a class action suit against TEC? Many things could be claimed, it would seem to me. Look at the result of the tobacco and asbestos suits on those sued. Few survive. |
| servant | Posted: 2007/7/2 20:25 Updated: 2007/7/2 20:25 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/10/3 From: Dallas, Texas Posts: 191 |
Quote:
"Does Mr. Beers think he can litigate against entire dioceses as well as just parishes? If he does it will be a public relations disaster of the first order, reported in all the major media throughout the country." The current scorched earth policy being adopted by TEC against orthodox parishes and dioceses should already be a public relations disaster of the first order ... but it isn't. It's being regarded as just an internal squabble. TEC's behavior should be understood and responded to as the outrage that it is. |
| Isaac | Posted: 2007/7/2 21:18 Updated: 2007/7/2 21:18 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/3/1 From: Texas Posts: 628 |
Litigation costs cut both ways.
I have an idea. Any parish that gets into a legal fight with TEC should mortgage its property to fund its litigation. Then, if they lose, let the bank have it. If they win, pay it off, hopefully in part with proceeds won from TEC. Isaac |
| john123 | Posted: 2007/7/2 21:50 Updated: 2007/7/2 21:50 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/12 From: Posts: 399 |
"One of the dilemmas of being Anglican is that we need bishops,"
Ah yes, bishops' the cause of all of the problems that we presently face. The dilemma that we Orthodox face is not that we need bishops. The dilemmas we face are the bishps. Spare us the bishops. |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/7/2 22:09 Updated: 2007/7/2 23:09 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
John123, there're "bishops," and there are BISHOPS. Mine is one of the latter. It is the "bishops" with which we need to concern ourselves here. Those so-called "bishops" are, for all intents and purposes, imps of the Prince of Darkness, and we need to treat them accordingly.
This nefarious scenario needs nationwide exposure, and to do that, we need media coverage....and this takes money....and lots of it! It may also be necessary for us to file a major Federal class-action lawsuit against TEC and Beers' law firm as co-conspirators. The problem is, who's going to start the ball rolling? Can dioceses do it individually? Sure! Can ALL ten Network dioceses do it together? Sure....but will they? I have the feeling that we're going to find out this winter. My diocese will vote this December....or so I was told by my bishop Sunday. Cennydd |
| Damascus | Posted: 2007/7/2 23:07 Updated: 2007/7/2 23:07 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/26 From: Republic of Karelia Posts: 640 |
Activist pro-gay bishop Tom Shaw
You don't really need the "pro-" for this to be an accurate statement of fact. Tom Shaw is the activist gay bishop of the Diocese of Massachusetts. The same goes for Dorsey Henderson in Carolina. At least Gene Robinson has the intellectual honesty to be up front about where he is coming from. Tom Shaw has been all over Boston TV campaigning on behalf of gay marriage and never once, in the interest of full disclosure, mentioned that he is a homosexual. It is that elephant in the room that everyone in Massachusetts knows about but doesn't speak of publicly. |
| Ikerliker | Posted: 2007/7/2 23:07 Updated: 2007/7/2 23:07 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2051 |
TEC is a sore losers club. If they can't have, nobody else will have it to enjoy either. Very childish and unchristian attitude. Then again, why should that surprise us.
|
| unitarian | Posted: 2007/7/2 23:13 Updated: 2007/7/2 23:13 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/12/31 From: Bryn Mawr, PA Posts: 307 |
This is the attempted Samson option. And it is full of peril for TEC.
For people get angry when they are sued, and we can expect more resistance than TEC does. This smacks of madness. Wasn't there a film, "Shoes of the Fisherman"? Now "Shoes of the Litigator"? How many will take up their briefcases and follow? Boston Unitarian |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/7/2 23:17 Updated: 2007/7/2 23:19 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Ikerliker, it's far worse than that! The heretic leadership of TEC is the Devil's cabal....and the sycophants in the GLBT movement....their supporters and fellow-travelers....are his imps....slaves, who scrape and bow to him, dance around his throne and do his every bidding!
Cennydd |
| otispage2 | Posted: 2007/7/3 0:07 Updated: 2007/7/3 0:10 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 615 |
Isaac nails it!
"Any parish that gets into a legal fight with TEC should mortgage its property to fund its litigation." It is the Russian strategy if 1812: burn the assets so the French will not possess and be sustained by them. Besides, the mgt left if the parish prevails will probably be less than building a new church. PUT THE WORD OUT: Mgt rather than surrender. |
| john123 | Posted: 2007/7/3 0:34 Updated: 2007/7/3 12:42 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/12 From: Posts: 399 |
Cennydd.
We are not on a level playing field. And this has to change. All homosexuals and lesbians in cleric positions in the church should be identified for what they are. Tom Shaw and Dorsey Henderson, for example, should always be identified for what they are, activist gay bishops. Only in this way will anyone listening to these people truly know what their agenda really is. And their aganda is not the Christian way of life. I am sure that many readers, such as myself, have no idea just how big this elephant in our tent really is. Perhaps someone would care to update me. |
| ZachS | Posted: 2007/7/3 0:53 Updated: 2007/7/3 0:53 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/1 From: Posts: 210 |
"The strategy of Episcopal Church leaders is to...litigate them into bankruptcy rather than allowing them to leave the Episcopal Church with their properties"
WELL DUH! You are suprised? What did you expect? A recent revelation Canon Anderson? You mean nobody saw this coming 5 to 10 years ago? |
| Guardian | Posted: 2007/7/3 1:05 Updated: 2007/7/3 1:09 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/9/21 From: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 184 |
Isaac,
I must say I like your idea, however, I doubt if it is truly practical. Bankers are a very conservative lot. Also, they do not live in a vacuum and are certainly aware of what's going on in TEC. I seriously doubt that very many will be willing to lend money where there is a strong possibility of litigation by either TEC or perhaps liberal members of a church against its vestry. Also, I think trying to raise money for legal fees will be far more difficult than for building a new church. Yes, I realize that some of the churches and facilities are worth ten of million of dollars, however, when a congregation begins spending $400 to $500 per hour in attorney fees on what may well be a five to ten year battle up and down the federal courts system, abandonment will become a much more attractive option. Guardian |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/7/3 1:21 Updated: 2007/7/3 1:21 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
ZachS, I'm reminded of a statement attributed to Adolf Hitler in 1941 concerning the Soviet Union, in which he said "we have only to kick in the back door, and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down."
In an ironic way, this applies to The Episcopal Church. Cennydd |
| david | Posted: 2007/7/3 1:46 Updated: 2007/7/3 1:46 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/4 From: Chillicothe, Ohio Posts: 2 |
It's about time that we heed the words of those bishops offering protection, i.e., to decide that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is more important than the buildings and other property. Where possible, it would be nice, although not essential, to hold on to some special items. But living the Faith once Delivered does not require even the most precious of material things. We must be willing to give up everything in order to proclaim the Gospel.
Let the dioceses keep their building and the small remnant of their "faithful" left behind, along with all the expense and debt. That is the "Tough Love" that might help save the Church in the end. Let's turn away from the Howards, Brunos, Shaws, Adamses, etc., and face the future with hope. God will not fail us. David |
| Howell | Posted: 2007/7/3 3:26 Updated: 2007/7/3 3:26 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/13 From: Colorado Posts: 444 |
Unfortunately Guardian is correct - bankers won't lend mortgage money to be used for litigation. However 10,000 orthodox Episcopalians standing outside 815 for three or four days with signs saying "Stop Suing Christians" while ignored by the New York Times, would probably get excellent coverage in the Daily News and local TV. And this could be followed up by a short bus ride to the Cathedral of St. John the Divine where we could all don clown's noses for a day. I'm ready to fly in from Denver!
|
| Leonardori | Posted: 2007/7/3 4:44 Updated: 2007/7/3 4:57 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/26 From: Posts: 37 |
"Unfortunately Guardian is correct - bankers won't lend mortgage money to be used for litigation." Howell
Drats! What a wonderfully creative idea to bankrupt parishes so nobody can worship in them should we lose to those wild living liberals who will grab em up and preach pagan devilery and rampant sexuality. I'll fly in and help too...maybe we could pass around a mitre blessed by one of our Global South protectors and get it filled up with gold to help funding for the righteous kingdom? Howell, are you Dean Howell? Bless your heart. |
| Leonardori | Posted: 2007/7/3 4:52 Updated: 2007/7/3 4:58 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/26 From: Posts: 37 |
"All homosexuals and lesbians in clerical positions in the church should be identified for what they are." Cennydd
You are so RIGHT! When you're right you're so RIGHT! Many of these betrayers of families and friends are passing for regular loving Chrisitans like us! Makes my blood boil to think we could be seeing them as they really are when they are just playing with us to survive living like that! |
| Leonardori | Posted: 2007/7/3 5:08 Updated: 2007/7/3 5:08 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/26 From: Posts: 37 |
...this applies to The Episcopal Church.
Cennydd Right again Cennydd, when you think about what they are now "doing" and what they did in California, Colorado, Virginia, Florida, South Carolina and beyond (and don't forget those rigidly insistant Smith +brothers of Mo, Conneticut and Az)...the whole nasty business will fall apart soon. |
| Caroll | Posted: 2007/7/3 5:51 Updated: 2007/7/3 5:51 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/2/22 From: Posts: 289 |
What is coming next? Sue the individuals who left ECUSA for Anglican or other churches. Who knows maybe that is what we can expect in the future.
![]() |
| Dominic | Posted: 2007/7/3 9:59 Updated: 2007/7/3 9:59 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/10 From: London Posts: 285 |
They may well attempt to bankrupt those who oppose them - they may well succeed. However, which is more important:
1. Having the truth of the Gospel and eternal life with God in His heaven; or 2. Having a few dollars? |
| JimMcNeely | Posted: 2007/7/3 11:13 Updated: 2007/7/3 11:13 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/4/7 From: Posts: 699 |
Why do battle on TEC's field? Leave the property and go be about the Gospel!!
-Jim+ |
| aspire1983 | Posted: 2007/7/3 13:07 Updated: 2007/7/3 13:09 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/10/12 From: FORMERLY Diocese of Virginia / Now CANA Posts: 421 |
Quote:
Why do battle on TEC's field? Leave the property and go be about the Gospel!! There are considerations in favor of seeking to keep the property... these include, but aren't necessarily limited to the following: 1. The parish community may believe that they are called by God to go ahead and do battle on the front lines of the new Anglican reformation and to take the field and win victory. 2. In many cases, the parish property was bought and paid for by the parish with no assistance from TEC or their respective dioceses. In many other cases, any assistance that had been received has been long since repaid in full. Neither the diocese nor TEC has any real claim to financial interest in these properties. In the final analysis, it is the people of the parish, with God's help, who built the parish and hold the deed. 3. The churchyard may contain the remains of family members... not only ancestors, but also sons and daughters... so that there exists an element of emotional cruelty on the part of the revisionists (both TEC and the diocese) that should not be tolerated. 4. Claims by TEC that they want to keep the property to honor our forebears who built the church is ludicrously bogus. If George Washington, who was involved in both Truro and the Falls Church, was cognizant of what was going on in the church today, the loud whooshing sound you would hear at the Mount Vernon gravesite would be George spinning rapidly in his grave. 5. The claim by TEC that they want to keep the properties for future generations of Episcopalians is ludicrously bogus. Someone else made the point: "WHAT future generations?" The biblically orthodox (those who are likely to have the most regular Average Sunday Attendance) aren't interested in subjecting their children to the revisionist theology which will undoubtedly ensue, once their dear old pastor retires. The diocese will undoubtedly fill his slot with a person of questionable orientation. SO... the orthodox are departing, and the Clueless Pewful aren't likely to be of sufficient numbers to sustain the property if it is left to them. 6. There is no particular reason why an orthodox parish should want to enrich the blasphemers and heretics of TEC by freely handing over the edifice of worship which they built and which in many cases was previously sanctified by a godly bishop. I personally can only see that as so much high-flown casting of pearls before swine. |
| servant | Posted: 2007/7/3 15:29 Updated: 2007/7/3 15:29 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/10/3 From: Dallas, Texas Posts: 191 |
I understand why other denominations are reluctant to speak out about what is perceived as largely an internal battle within TEC and the Anglican Communion. However, the actions of TEC and other liberal branches of the Anglican Communion reflect badly on Christianity in general.
In theory at least, TEC is a branch of the Christian church, even if it is pagan in practice. We know from the writings of St. Paul, that Christians should call other Christians (and those publicly purporting to be Christian) to account. I wonder what advice St. Paul would have for Christianity in general as it sees one of its branches abandon the faith, attempt to use the legal system to steal property from parishes, and bless that which God has told us is repugnant to Him. Perhaps there would be more pressure against TEC's scorched earth policy if leaders of other denominations would speak out against this outrage that is being committed against Christianity in the name of Christianity. |
| john123 | Posted: 2007/7/3 15:47 Updated: 2007/7/3 15:47 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/12 From: Posts: 399 |
Servant
You raise a very interesting point. Why don't they? Your additional comment is even more challenging to my mind. "In theory at least, TEC is a branch of the Christian church, even if it is pagan in practice." The TEC is now nothing more than a cult. It is not Christian in theory or by other measurement. Christians should no longer sit with them. |
| db4him | Posted: 2007/7/3 16:37 Updated: 2007/7/3 16:37 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/19 From: Posts: 425 |
"This raises the serious question as to where the Episcopal Church is getting the money from to do all this litigation. Will someone crack open the Church Pension Fund and raid the pensions of liberals and conservatives to fund the litigation?"
One of the reasons so many of the orthodox clergy have stayed this long is to insure their pensions... how ironic if their pension is ultimately used to fund the very legal actions against them! What ever happened to 1 Corinthians 6:1-8: Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life? So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren, but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers? Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. |
| servant | Posted: 2007/7/3 16:54 Updated: 2007/7/3 16:54 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/10/3 From: Dallas, Texas Posts: 191 |
Quote:
What ever happened to 1 Corinthians 6:1-8 Didn't you hear? TEC came to understand that the Bible is not the Word of the Lord, but is just a book describing the human experience with God, with a little history (not to be taken too literally, of course) and some nice poetry. Furthermore, it came to TEC's attention that the Bible was written by a relatively small group of men who had no appreciation of our modern and diverse culture, and who did not understand that God would come to learn from human experience. Therefore while the Bible might have been appropriate to those who wrote it, it doesn't apply to the enlightened elite in TEC. At least that's one point of view ... but not one on which I'd want to stake my eternal life. |
| warmac9999 | Posted: 2007/7/3 16:55 Updated: 2007/7/3 16:55 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/2/16 From: Posts: 1463 |
The counter strategy is for every member of every leaving church to sue the diocese and the bishops specifically. Constantly being on the defensive and never knowing when the revisionists will strike again is not going to work. As I said in a previous post, the diocese cannot easily defend against 10,000 small claims scattered around the country.
If you are going to try to keep the property, then sue the diocese for malpractice or misappropriation of funds. Otherwise, pick up stakes and leave. |
| warmac9999 | Posted: 2007/7/3 17:05 Updated: 2007/7/3 17:05 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/2/16 From: Posts: 1463 |
Something like 98% of all lawsuits end in a settlement of some kind. The TEC expects settlement but must push for damages through civil suits - and they want the property and to hell with the congregations who are already lost as far as they are concerned.
The way to stop this civil suit garbage is through plantiff actions against liberal dioceses and the national church itself. Imagine a little old lady filing to get her pledge money returned. It would embarass the heck out of the TEC. Now imagine 10,000 crade Episcopalians not only filing for their pledges but filing to have the entire diocese and national leadership replaced. You have to go on offense as defense allows the TEC to punish without real cost. Once they cannot predict what is going to happen, this type of viciousness will probably stop. Today, they can cherry pick their battles. Tomorrow, they can be inundated by lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit. What the orthodox have to recognize is that the revisionists recognize they are in a fight for their survival. The war they are waging is all out with no quarter given. If the orthodox are unwilling to wage war for their survival, then leave the buildings and start anew. |
| Climacus | Posted: 2007/7/3 17:15 Updated: 2007/7/3 17:15 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/2/19 From: Boston Posts: 86 |
Since people have pointing out that the Episcopal church has been apostate since at least 1873 (when the REC broke away), I struggle to sympathize with the churches who are only now trying to get away with their property. What do they expect when the vast majority of the TEC bishops, clergy, churches and laymembers are apostates, heretics, or 'cultural' Christians?
The Bible tells us again and again to separate from unbelievers, to not even greet them or receive them into our homes. It seems to me most Anglicans have not only ignored those Biblical injunctions, but have gone so far as to entrust millions of dollars worth of tithes and offerings in support of the ministry of unbelievers, a clear act of rebellion against God. In short, you reap what you sow. |
| aspire1983 | Posted: 2007/7/3 17:31 Updated: 2007/7/3 17:40 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/10/12 From: FORMERLY Diocese of Virginia / Now CANA Posts: 421 |
db4him - -
I would be rather surprised if TEC could get away with attacking the pensions...stranger things have already happened, though. Nevertheless, TEC is most probably getting their money from bequeathed endowments left to the Clueless Pewful parishes by Christian faithful. I know for a fact that bishops, say Peter James Lee, for example, have solicited funds from individual remaining parishes to shore up the diocesan shortfall. This is just an example of how the revisionist heretics are robbing the Christian dead. What Jesus said of the pharisees is so true of the revisionist bishops in TEC today: "They are white-washed sepulchres, filled with dead men's bones and all corruption!" |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/7/3 17:55 Updated: 2007/7/3 17:55 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Hey, Warmac! Wouldn't it be neat if roughly 200,000 individual lawsuits were filed against TEC? You know, the people who left between GC2003 and today? Can you imagine what it would be like defending against them?
Does the word CHAOS ring a bell? Cennydd |
| Baruch | Posted: 2007/7/3 18:48 Updated: 2007/7/3 18:48 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/15 From: Highlands Ranch, CO Posts: 119 |
John123,
The answer is simple, never elect anyone who wants the position. Look over who would be best and doesn't desire the job, a scholar, one who is a good rector and wants to remain so, and by all means never, NEVER a manager!!! ![]() |
| Leonardori | Posted: 2007/7/3 19:44 Updated: 2007/7/3 19:44 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/26 From: Posts: 37 |
Why do battle on TEC's field? Leave the property and go be about the Gospel!!
-Jim+ Really sensible thinking for those of us who may wish to let the new revelations of the spirit unfold before us with confidence and true faith...I'm always fascinated while driving through small towns throughout America how many well kept and thriving tiny corner independent Churches their seems to be...imagine the "freedom" to go about the business of worshiping God and being of service to ones entire faith community without the degredation of lawsuits and bitter words of divisiveness amongst our fellow Christians. |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/7/3 20:29 Updated: 2007/7/3 20:29 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
One thing must be made absolutely clear when the Second Anglican Reformation is completed in this country, and here it is:
Every parish must be incorporated as a separate entity, and they must own their properties. No "Denis Canon" must ever be permitted to pass! Cennydd |
| romkey | Posted: 2007/7/3 21:32 Updated: 2007/7/3 21:32 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/2/20 From: Posts: 2 |
What I was told today by someone who should know:
1. TEC is already making it difficult for some orthodox priests to collect their pensions, forcing them to sue. 2. The pension fund has already given money to 815 for legal costs. 3. TEC has signaled that it may go after not only the diocese and parish ... but individual vestry members if they vote to adjust their alignment. With Christians like this, we don't need Satan. There are a lot of interesting ideas above about how to deal with this, but the fact remains that it is in the interests of the orthodox to act in unison and to act soon. Time is not on our side. |
| Abigail | Posted: 2007/7/3 21:52 Updated: 2007/7/3 21:52 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/6/30 From: Posts: 7 |
The saddest thing in this whole mess is that the bishops who are filing suit are less concerned about the souls of men and women than about brick and mortar--and ultimately power. Where are the love, the justice, and the tolerance that are supposed to be hallmarks of this group? The answer is easy. Where God's Law is spurned, there can be no love, no justice, no forbearance. And where the Holy Spirit is blamed (credited?) for this "new thing" in TEC that is actually a denial of the very Scripture that He inspired, there can be only madness.
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| Isaac | Posted: 2007/7/3 22:47 Updated: 2007/7/3 22:47 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/3/1 From: Texas Posts: 628 |
OK, I modify my idea. Mortgage the property to a consortium of parishners and other friendlies.
Isaac |
| orthodoxia | Posted: 2007/7/3 23:27 Updated: 2007/7/4 0:55 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/7/3 From: Posts: 2 |
I have a query, What are these Anglican/Episcopal Orthodox Parishes? I do stress the word Orthodox.
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| bradhutt | Posted: 2007/7/4 0:14 Updated: 2007/7/4 0:14 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/5 From: Washington D.C. Metro Area Posts: 146 |
Fellow Anglicans,
Are these Colonial Anglican Parishes listed below not worth fighting for? All were formed before this Country declared it's Independence in 1776. and Before the Episcopal Church was founded. They are being stolen before our very eyes by a unjust canon created to take property from the legal owners and without their vestry written authorization to do so. We are not Public Domain. So what do you propose to do about it? Run ? If everyone of the 0ne Million+ who have left the Episcopal Church would give a $100. to a legal defense fund it would raise $100 Million to fight TEC. See the AAC-W/Anglican Heritage Foundation Website www.anglicanheritagefoundation.org for more info. HISTORIC ANGLICAN CHURCHES IN COLONIAL AMERICA 1607-1776 SOUTH CAROLINA 1. St Andrew’s Church, Drayton Hall 1706 2. St. James Church, 1711, 3. St Helena’s Church, 1724 4. Christ Church, 1724 5. Strawberry Chapel, Cordsville 1725 6. Prince George’s Church, Winyah, 1742, <> 7. St Michael’s Church, 1752 8. Pompion Hill Chapel, Huger 1763 9. St Stephen’s Church, St. Stephen 1767 10. St. James, Church, Santee 1768 11. St. David’s Church, Cheraw 1770 NORTH CAROLINA 12. St. Thomas' Church, Bath 1734 13. St. Paul's Church, Edenton 1736 14. St. John's Church, Williamsboro 1757 15. Trinity Church, Chocowinity 1774 VIRGINIA 16. St.Luke's Church (Old Brick), Smithfield 1632 17. Jamestown Church Tower , Jamestown c .1647 18. Merchant's Hope Church, Prince George 1657 19. Grace Church, Yorktown 1697 20. St. Peter's Church, Talleysville 1701-1703 21. Yeocomico Church, Hague 1706 22. Christ Church, Christchurch 1714 23. Bruton Parish Church, Williamsburg 1715 24. Ware Church, Gloucester 1715 25. Lower Chapel, Hartfield 1717 26. Vauter's Church, Loretto 1719 27. St. John's Church, Hampton 1728 28. Upper Church of Stratton Major Parish, Centerville 1728 29. Chapel of the College of William and Mary, Williamsburg 1729 30. Upper Church, St. Paul's Parish (Slash), Crosses Corner 1729 31. Westover Church, Charles City Courthouse 1730-1737 32. Christ Church, Lancaster County 1732 33. Mangohick Church, Mangohick 1732 34. St. John's Church, King William County 1734 35. Old Blandford Church, Petersburg 1735 36. Old Donation Church, Virginia Beach 1736 37. Farnham Church, Farnham 1737 38. The Glebe Church, Suffolk 1737 -1738 39. St. George's Church, Pungoteage 1738 40. St Paul's Church, Norfolk 1739 41. Fork Church, Ashland 1740 42. St. Mary's Whitechapel, Lively 1740. 43. St. John’s Church, Richmond 1741 44. Hungars Church, Bridgetown 1742 45. Cattail Church, Aylett 1751 46. Abingdon Church, White Marsh 1754 47. St. John's Church, Chuckatuck 1755 48. Mattapony Church, Cumnor 1755 49. Aquia Church, Stafford Courthouse 1757 50. St. Paul's Church, King George County 1766 51. Christ Church, Alexandria 1767 52. The Falls Church, Falls Church 1767-1769 53. Pohick Church, Accotink 1769 54. Lamb's Creek Church, King George Courthouse 1769-1770 55. Hickory Neck Church, Toano 1773 56. Little Fork Church, Rixeyville 1776 MARYLAND 57.Trinity Church, Church Creek c.1675 58.St. Paul's Church, Fairlee 1713 59.St. Luke's Church (Old Wye), Wye Mills 1717 60.St. John's Church, Broad Creek 1722 61.All Hallows Church, South River 1729 62.St. Luke's Church, Church Hill 1731 63.Christ Church (Old Durham), Ironsides 1732 64.St. Thomas' Church, Croom 1732 65.St. Bartholomew's Church (Old Green Hill), Green Hill 1733 66.St. Paul's Church, Baden 1733 67.Christ Church, Chaptico 1736 68.St. Mary Anne's Church, North East 1742 69.St. Thomas' Church, Garrison Forest 17 43 70.Christ Church, Accokeek 1745 71.All Hallows Church, Snow Hill 1748 72.Middleham Chapel, Lusby 1748. 73.Christ Church, Wayside 1750 74.St. George's Church, Valley Lee 1750 75.St. James' Church (My Lady's Manor).Manor 1755 76.St. Martin's Church. Berlin 1756 77.St. James' Church Tracy's Landing 1763 78.All Faith Church, Huntersville 1765 79.St. Andrew's Church, Leonardtown 1766 80.Trinity Chapel, Oldfields 1767 81.Emmanuel Church, Chestertown 1768 82.St. Andrew's Church, Princess Anne 1770 83.St. Paul's Church (Spring Hill), Hebron 1771 84.Christ Church, Port Republic 1772 85.All Saints' Church, Sunderland 1774 86.St. Barnabas' Church, Leeland 1774 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 87. St. Paul's Church (Rock Creek), Washington 1775 DELAWARE 88.Holy Trinity Church (Old Swedes), Wilmington 1698 89.Immanuel Church, New Castle 1703 90. Christ Church, Dover 1734 91. Prince George's Chapel, Dagsboro 1757 92. St. Anne's Church, Middletown 1768 93. Christ Church, Laurel 1771 PENNSYLVANIA 94. Gloria Dei Church, Philadelphia 1697 95. Trinity Church, Oxford, Philadelphia 1711St. 96. St. David’s Church, Radnor 1715 97. Christ Church, Philadelphia 1727 98. St. Peter's Church in the Great Valley, Devault 1745 99. St. Peter's Church, Philadelphia 1758 100. Christ Church, Upper Merion, Bridgeport 1760 101. St. Paul's Church, Philadelphia 1761 102. St.James' Church, Philadelphia 1762 103. St. John's Church, York 1766 NEW JERSEY 104.Old St. Mary's Church, Burlington 1703 105.Christ Church, New Brunswick 1743 106.St. Thomas' Church, Alexandria 1769 107.Christ Church, Shrewsbury 1769 108.St. Peter's Church, Freehold 1771 NEW YORK 109.Caroline Church, Setauket 1729 110.St. James' Chapel, Elmhurst 1735 111.St. John's Church, Yonkers 1752 112.St. George's Church, Schenectady 17 59 113.St. Paul's Church, Eastchester, Mount Vernon 1761 114.St. Paul's Chapel, New York 1764 115.St. John's Church, Oakdale 1765 116.St. Peter's Church, Van Cortlandtville 1767 117.Trinity Church, Fishkill 1769 118.Indian Castle Church, Indian Castle 1769 RHODE ISLAND 119.St. Paul's Church (Old Narragansett), Wickford 1707 120.Trinity Church, Newport 1725 MASSACHUSETTS 121.St. Michael's Church, Marblehead 1714 122.Christ Church (Old North), Boston 1723 123.King' s Chapel, Boston 1749 124.Christ Church, Cambridge 1759 CONNECTICUT 125. Old Trinity Church. Brooklyn 1770 NEW HAMPSHIRE 126. Union Church Claremont 1773 |
| bradhutt | Posted: 2007/7/4 1:13 Updated: 2007/7/4 1:13 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/5 From: Washington D.C. Metro Area Posts: 146 |
Some of the Historic Anglican Churches I listed on my previous post have been taken over by Revisionists. Our ancestors must be rolling over in their graves. But that doesn't mean they can't be taken back. We took back Christ Church, Accokeek MD. (1745) and All Saints', Chevy Chase MD. who experienced a 30% growth rate in the last five years under Rev. Al Zadig, a Network Priest.
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| bradhutt | Posted: 2007/7/4 1:25 Updated: 2007/7/4 1:25 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/5 From: Washington D.C. Metro Area Posts: 146 |
hahahahahahahahah,
We also call them like we see them. |
| dturk | Posted: 2007/7/4 2:36 Updated: 2007/7/4 2:36 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/26 From: Posts: 416 |
"What the court said here was that if a hierarchical church wants to take control of local church property, all it has to do is pass a rule."
There a few problems with this analysis. In the first place, in JONES v. WOLF, 443 U.S. 595 (1979), the Supreme Court did find for the denomination in a property dispute with a congregation that attempted to leave the denomination. However, there is some implication that this ruling might be applicable only when there were "no doctrinal disputes". Also, it makes no metion of what occurs when the congregation had a deed to the property before the denomination passed a regulation declaring the properties of all member churches were held in trust for the denomination. Since both of these two conditions apply to TECs potential property claims on its dissident member congregation's properties, it casts some doubt that this ruling would apply to TEC property disputes. |
| Solomon | Posted: 2007/7/4 3:30 Updated: 2007/7/4 3:30 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/1 From: Posts: 7 |
Hmmm....let's see now. Oh yes, I remember!
The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. There truly is nothing new under the sun is there? Schiori and Beers...there are not unique...they are just next. |
| bradhutt | Posted: 2007/7/4 8:16 Updated: 2007/7/4 8:16 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/5 From: Washington D.C. Metro Area Posts: 146 |
The Diocese of Easton, MD. hoodwinked their members by reincorporating all their churches a few years ago to tie them up forever,with or without theirvestry consent even to the point that their churches cannot go to civil court without consent of the diocese. BUT the Diocese exempted all of their historic Parishes who predated the diocese, because those churches had an "irrevocable charter" that could not be changed. All documented under Corporations and Institutions in the Sessions Laws of Maryland.
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| Leonard | Posted: 2007/7/4 10:25 Updated: 2007/7/4 10:25 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/11/2 From: Denver Posts: 141 |
The orthodox parishes need to start asking judges to dismiss diocesan 'With Prejudice.'
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| bradhutt | Posted: 2007/7/4 10:43 Updated: 2007/7/4 10:43 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/5 From: Washington D.C. Metro Area Posts: 146 |
It's more like False Inprisonment. Holding one captive by false charges.
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| Guardian | Posted: 2007/7/4 13:54 Updated: 2007/7/4 13:54 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/9/21 From: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 184 |
There is an old legal axiom that goes like this:
"A town that cannot one lawyer can support two." Guardian |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/7/4 18:51 Updated: 2007/7/4 18:54 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Quote:
I have a query, What are these Anglican/Episcopal Orthodox Parishes? I do stress the word Orthodox. Orthodoxia, they are parishes which stress the orthodoxy of their view of Holy Scripture as opposed to the innovations of recent General Conventions beginning in 1973, when the 1928 Book of Common Prayer came under review; resulting in what is known as the "1979 Book of Common Prayer"....and later, when the "ordination" of women was authorized; both of which were and are still considered "unorthodox," and in opposition to that which Anglicanism outside The Episcopal Church and The Anglican Church of Canada have always believed. Cennydd |
| Howell | Posted: 2007/7/5 3:31 Updated: 2007/7/5 3:32 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/13 From: Colorado Posts: 444 |
If I were a lawyer, I'd be contacting one of the orthodox groups to solicite/form a group of orthodox Anglican lawyers to review and initiate some of the ideas proposed to challenge the Denis
concept. However I'm not a lawyer so don't know where to begin such an effort. But for the life of me I can't understand how a GC could pass such a law involving property without the express consent of every single parish's Vestry or even a majority of every single congregation. This is not doctrine or church policy we're talking about; it's hard assets. Surely someone or some parish must challenge Denis in a court of law!! |
| bradhutt | Posted: 2007/7/5 14:06 Updated: 2007/7/5 14:06 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/5 From: Washington D.C. Metro Area Posts: 146 |
Howell,
Absolutely- I am not a Lawyer either, but common sense dictates a class action counter lawsuit. The Episcopal Church initiated these actions and you fight fire with fire.The best defense is a good offense and we need to go on the offensive. |
| loonpond | Posted: 2007/7/5 15:16 Updated: 2007/7/5 15:16 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/10/10 From: ME Posts: 42 |
Just a few random comments: I don't think individual parishes can take out mortgages wothout diocesan approval, so that might not work. Secondly, how do you define Parish? What will happen is what's been happening for the past 40 years - the orthodox will simply leave. If the membership that leaves constitutes nearly the whole "parish," then TEC will be left with a vacant building - we've seen that before. Thirdly, unless I'm mistaken, there's never been any verifiable data to suggest that Tom Shaw is leading an actively gay lifestyle. He always tells people that he's a celibate monk. Does any one have any verifiable info to the contrary? If so, I'd be interested to know about it.
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| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/7/5 17:54 Updated: 2007/7/5 17:54 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
"TEC will bankrupt orthodox parishes that oppose them."
Not if they start out letting them have the bricks and mortar to begin with. If they do the only folks going bankrupt will be TEC when they can neither pay for or fill empty church property. When the leavers fight they are playing into the hands of TEC. When they leave lock, stock, and barrell and form anew they are always better off, both spiritually and symbolically. |
| Dominic | Posted: 2007/7/5 19:40 Updated: 2007/7/5 19:40 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/10 From: London Posts: 285 |
"One thing must be made absolutely clear when the Second Anglican Reformation is completed in this country, and here it is:
Every parish must be incorporated as a separate entity, and they must own their properties. No "Denis Canon" must ever be permitted to pass! Cennydd" It may interest readers to know that the Evangelical Connexion of the Free Church of England (following its split with the indiscriminately ecumenical FCE) has done just that. Written into the 'rules' is the right for any congregation to leave at any time with no penalty, financial or otherwise. This should be the way to go for all. |
| bradhutt | Posted: 2007/7/6 2:45 Updated: 2007/7/6 2:45 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/5 From: Washington D.C. Metro Area Posts: 146 |
Loonpond,
You are way too conservative-playing by the rules. There are no rules. Just do it. It's the Episcopal Way and it works. |
| Compline | Posted: 2007/7/12 4:55 Updated: 2007/7/12 4:55 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/22 From: USA Posts: 63 |
Quote:
Presiding Bishop Katherine Jefferts Schori and her attorney David Booth Beers, is to go after orthodox dioceses and churches and litigate them into bankruptcy rather than allowing them to leave the Episcopal Church with their properties, Strategy of the leftist politicians for a very long time, witness the same tactic used against firearms manufacturers in the United States. Gunmakers are small businesses just as the sellers are and likewise an orthodox parish doesn't have the resources to engage in prolonged and repeated legal tangles with the EC which was FUNDED by trusts and wills by orthodox members. What a despicable tactic these people are wielding against the brethren. |
| Rachmnnoff | Posted: 2007/7/27 12:21 Updated: 2007/7/27 12:21 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/3/15 From: Mauna Kea@13796 ft. Posts: 338 |
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
Using trust funds to litigate into oblivion those parishes who do not conform to the current fads and whims of TEC - Man oh man, what a bunch of crackpots at the helm of TEC. ![]() |
| ckelly6373 | Posted: 2007/8/3 21:15 Updated: 2007/8/3 21:15 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/2/14 From: Posts: 89 |
Quote:
"It is a tragedy of the first order that a presiding bishop who preaches the "gospel" of Millennium Development Goals to save the poorest of the poor, is willing to spend millions of dollars litigating for properties that, at the end of the day, may only have a dozen people left in them." My personal dealings with Bishop Mathes have not been pleasant or fruitful. He has the style of a dictator or tyrant. I would rather have a snake oil seller as bishop than him. He is not to be trusted and is very shifty. All he cares about are numbers and money and property. |

































