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Exclusives : The Limits of Intolerance
Posted by David Virtue on 2007/6/3 12:10:00 (5625 reads)

THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE

News Analysis

By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
6/2/2007

If you believe the rhetoric of the Progressive Episcopalian movement, orthodox Episcopalians are "intolerant", "arrogant", "irrational", "abhorrent", "scapegoaters", "exclusionary", "narrow imperial ideologues", "Neo-Puritan", "fascist", "fundamentalist", "narrow-minded/totalitarian", "de-legitimizers", "extremists", "prevaricators", "bigots" and "un-Anglican".

Those are the words of the Rev. Nigel Taber-Hamilton, a priest in the Diocese of Olympia, and a deputy to General Convention Those are the words of the Rev. Nigel Taber-Hamilton, a priest in the Diocese of Olympia, a deputy to General Convention and a leader of the so-called Episcopal Majority, a group dedicated to expunging orthodoxy from the Episcopal Church in the name of tolerance.

In an article titled "The Limits of Tolerance", Mr. Hamilton accuses remnant orthodox Episcopalians, such as the American Anglican Council, the Anglican Communion Network, Forward in Faith North America, and, most recently, the "Convocation of Anglicans in North America" (Archbishop of Nigeria Peter Akinola's extra-territorial "Nigerian" mission to the U.S.A.), of well-planned and organized attempts to bring about the replacement demise of the Episcopal Church as the U.S. embodiment of Anglicanism.

He writes; "Until now we have not prepared well to face this assault. And so we have been blinded to this narrow totalitarian vision seeping into our nation's and our faith's - and even our Communion's - DNA. It is a vision that threatens to destroy our open North American society and emerging Christian identity."

He then launches into a tirade about those who would uphold the faith against its cultured despisers, "The truth is beginning to dawn on us, however: toleration has its limits. Unlimited tolerance will lead to the end of tolerance, for the tolerant will be stamped out, leaving only the extremists. A tolerance that is unlimited in scope and boundary-less in expression represents a fundamental error of judgment on our part."

"The canaries in the Anglican coal mine are our gay brothers and lesbian sisters and their supporters, attacked with increasing vehemence by the shrill voice of conservatism. Having spent the last 30 years berating and seeking to marginalize various ethnic minorities and women, conservative rhetoric condemning gays and lesbians has reached an Inquisitional pitch. If we are not alarmed by this trend, the liberating teachings of Christ will succumb to the religious fascism of our age."

Mr. Hamilton berates progressive Episcopalians for their failure to believe that the "application of reason" to the current conflict will "prove effective in convincing our opponents of the correctness of our cause." He then says that this is not only false but that it is time to fight back.

"These neo-Puritans are focusing intently on the destruction of tolerance's foundational values. Our demise would result in the success of their narrow and puritanical agenda within the broader Church, and herald a similar victory over the open society of our North American culture."

Mr. Hamilton then outlines a six-point plan to save The Episcopal Church.

* Keep the faith. We must continue on the pathway of diversity and inclusion begun with the ordination of women and the Book of Common Prayer 1979 in partnership with all of our members.

* Be clear that we will abandon no one, and especially not those minorities who have, historically, been oppressed by the Church.

* Be firm that, while we welcome everyone on this journey, we will not allow bigotry or threat to destroy this emerging vision of Christian faith in light of a God who makes all things new.

* Be vigorous in preserving the institutional integrity of the Episcopal Church, including taking immediate legal action when any attempt is made to alienate the real property of our denomination, encouraging every bishop and Standing Committee to do the same.

* Resist all attempts by some in our Communion to impose an un-Anglican institutional vision upon us and our fellow Anglicans worldwide, including opposing any Anglican "Covenant" or curial instruments, as threats to the faith on which our institutions are based.

* End the prevaricating, and, instead, organize, network, communicate with each other, speak out, and act.

What's wrong with this picture? A little history is in order.

WOMEN'S ORDINATION. When the issue of women's ordination was brokered into the Episcopal Church it was done not on the basis of sound theological reflection, but on the back of the civil right's movement. It was done with the understanding that those bishops who disagreed would not be forced to comply and that their consciences would be respected. If you haven't kept up with the news then you should know that those days are long gone, and now it is MANDATORY for all bishops to ordain women or face possible presentment and expulsion from the HOB. Dioceses like Ft. Worth and Quincy had to cut deals with neighboring dioceses to allow Special arrangements for women were made with neighboring dioceses so that bishops could, to keep their consciences from being totally violated.

The one notable exception in recent years was the election and consecration of the Rt. Rev. Jeffrey Steenson, Bishop of the Rio Grande, who does not believe in women's ordination. He got the green light from then Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold on the understanding he would play ball with liberals in the HOB. Ironically, that may not work out as planned since Steenson is showing some testosterone in how he is dealing with orthodox parishes that want to flee his jurisdiction and the Episcopal Church. (His diocese recently passed motions demanding alternative oversight for parishes fleeing TEC). http://tinyurl.com/2hb88k

Can one doubt that it is only a matter of time when the ordination of pansexual priests, now already accepted, will go from optional to mandatory by The Episcopal Church and any bishop who refuses to ordain such a person, (as it will be deemed a justice issue not a moral one), will be labeled a traitor to the HOB and find himself excluded or fail to receive consents?

TOLERANCE. For more than 30 years the orthodox have been acquiescent to the point of nausea, tolerating the innovations of the Episcopal Church. So many lines in the sand have been drawn. One endless prevaricating language game after another has been played. Resolutions of one sort or another demanding that the faith be kept have been issued. The orthodox have been pushed to the very edge of the Episcopal Church.

Just look at the effort, albeit vain, by Bishop Keith Ackerman (Quincy) to get the Episcopal Church to pass a simple resolution (B001) affirming the authority of Scripture and basic tenets of the Christian faith. Mr. Hamilton and his gang of "tolerant" priests would not vote for it, (too exclusionary). Hamilton is accusing the orthodox remnant of intolerance because he won't uphold what he swore to uphold when he became a priest.

Was it tolerant to pass D039, which legitimized and ratified fornication at the 75th General Convention while bitterly opposing the passage of Lambeth Resolution 1.10 affirming the sacredness of sex within heterosexual marriage, or the passage of resolution B033, which called on bishops to "exercise restraint" by not consenting to the consecration of future gay bishops? Right after that we got V. Gene Robinson. Or what about the Windsor Report, which said that homosexuality, was "incompatible with Scripture" and disapproved of the blessing of same-sex unions?

It is not just the orthodox within TEC that urges caution and restraint; the vast majority of Anglicans worldwide have called for the same restraint, time and time again. From one primatial meeting to the next, from Brazil to Dromantine, from London to Tanzania the message has been the same - don't go beyond what Holy Scripture will allow or you will jeopardize your place in the Anglican Communion and your very souls.

Why in heavens name would African Archbishops, who had the gospel brought to them by Anglican missionary evangelists from England who told them very explicitly what salvation is and what it entails, forfeit it all by affirming sodomy - a behavior they believe, along with St. Paul, will jeopardize their place in the Kingdom of God. What fools would they be to play with loaded dice at a crap table when the odds of winning are zero?

The slow incremental take over of The Episcopal Church has been well documented. Mr. Hamilton can scream all he wants, but he and Louie Crew, Jack Spong and now 90 percent of the House of Bishops are on board with the Episcopal Church's new religion - right down to electing a woman Presiding Bishop which is so in-your-face to the majority of Anglicans who don't believe in the ordination of women to the priesthood let alone a female Presiding Bishop.

Mr. Hamilton has one objective: he wants to hammer into the ground a remnant of faithful priests and laity who have been steam rolled over by a bunch of fascist bishops. The most notable of these is Charles E. Bennison who cannot even stand the sight of orthodox priests like Fr. David Ousley and Fr. David L. Moyer, barely tolerates evangelicals like Fr. Greg Brewer, and who cannot affirm certain basic Christian doctrines while demanding complete fealty and obedience only medieval popes have sought to obtain. Look what history did to them!

Mr. Hamilton wants us to keep the faith, not THE Faith, but his version of the faith, which includes "the pathway of inclusion and diversity". Really. For orthodox folk "inclusion" is a pathway to hell, so why should they jump on that bandwagon, pray tell?

This is come as you are, stay as you are, repentance not necessary. True diversity is not about women or blacks in the church. Orthodox parishes have as good a sprinkling of both in my experience as do liberal parishes. Homosexuals and lesbians can be found in a large number of congregations including orthodox ones, but they are not breaking down the doors to get in despite Louie Crew and Bishop Robinson's belief that they would. With only 1.4 percent of the national population officially homosexual, Episcopal Church statistics reflect only slightly more than that.

Despite Mr. Hamilton's cry, no orthodox Episcopal parish has "abandoned" or not welcomed anyone into their congregations. Homosexuals and lesbians are self-discriminating when it comes to parishes THEY choose to attend. Why go to a parish that preaches a gospel of repentance when you can go to one that affirms your aberrant sexual behavior!

Mr. Hamilton says that we should "welcome everyone on this journey, we will not allow bigotry or threat to destroy this emerging vision of Christian faith in light of a God who makes all things new." Now that all depends on what journey or road you happen to be on. If it is the narrow way which leads to light, life, and salvation, that's one thing. If it is the broad road which leads to personal self-destruction, that is quite another. The truth is bigotry has become the domain of liberals and revisionists.

This past week VOL faced a case of pure fear and intimidation by a revisionist bishop when this writer sought information from the Diocese of Missouri. Two remaining orthodox priests were approached and both refused to assist. One said, "I don't want to get involved" while the other party said, "We don't have any pertinent information to share with you." Those were the nicest words they said. Why? Because Bishop George Wayne Smith has let it be known that he monitors VirtueOnline and the Midwest Conservative Journal, a blog that exposes what is going on in the Episcopal Church. Watch out if your name appears on it. That's intimidation.

DIVERSITY AND BIGOTRY. Revisionist bishops will not allow ordinands to attend Trinity Episcopal School for Ministry for fear of spiritual contamination, or take TESM's ordinands into their dioceses - young evangelical men and women filled with the Holy Spirit who will preach the life saving message of Jesus and fill churches. How does Mr. Hamilton explain liberal Episcopal parishes that are emptying while departing parishes fill borrowed halls, borrowed churches and the occasional synagogue? Can he explain why the average age of Episcopalians is in the mid 60s and the average size of a congregation is in the lows 70s!!!

Is Mr. Hamilton blind to the fact that tens of thousands of Evangelical Episcopalians have left and continue to leave the Episcopal Church each week because Bishop Robinson's manner of life is being thrust down their throats as a "wholesome example" when they know in their guts it is not, and don't want their children exposed to his lifestyle!

Mr. Hamilton wants liberal bishops to come down hard on priests and parishes that want to keep their properties. "Be vigorous in preserving the institutional integrity of the Episcopal Church, including taking immediate legal action when any attempt is made to alienate the real property of our denomination, encouraging every bishop and Standing Committee to do the same," he writes.

Parishes that were built by the labor, sweat and dollars of parishioners should blithely turn them over to a bishop and national church that never built a single parish because of the Dennis Canon, according to Mr. Hamilton. He should have a word with the Rev. Don Armstrong about that kind of thinking. The National Church is a taker not a giver. It has never laid a single foundation stone of a parish and , expects a tithe to promote a mission conservatives don't believe in. Protesters are told to either take a hike, and face inhibition and deposition or stay and conform.

Fellow liberals and revisionists are asked by Mr. Hamilton to assist in all attempts to impose an un-Anglican institutional vision upon us and our fellow worldwide Anglicans. He wants us to oppose any Anglican "Covenant" or curial instruments, which he says are threats to the faith upon which our institutions are based.

Now what faith is that exactly? It is certainly not the faith of Thomas Cranmer or J.C. Ryle or N. T. Wright, or of John Keble, John Henry Newman or Edward Bouverie Pusey. Hamilton's "faith" is that of Spong and Countryman, Louie Crew and Steven Charleston and various other theological illuminati of the left who long ago abandoned any semblance of the "'faith once delivered to the saints."' Anything that smacks of orthodoxy like Resolution 1:10 or Covenants or Windsor Reports that proscribe homosexual activity must be expunged from the record and joyful pan sexuality must be free to reign like the great god Pan and Sufi the Rumi.

End the prevaricating, and, instead, organize, network, communicate with each other, speak out, and act, says Hamilton. Oh Mr. Hamilton, you and they have been doing that for over 30 years. You have all but won the cultural wars. You have taken over the Episcopal Church's seminaries, most of its bishops have rolled over to your way of thinking, the pulpits are filled (even as the pews empty) with your people, the media levers (Episcopal Life and nearly all the Diocesan publications) are controlled by liberals, the purse strings have been in your grip since the reign of Edmund Browning, and you have driven all but a tiny and fearful minority out of The Episcopal Church. Only a handful of orthodox dioceses remain, and if my sources are correct, they won't be around much longer.

Come Oct. 1, Mr. Hamilton will begin to see a slow but steady exodus from the Episcopal Church. The less than 800,000 remaining practicing Episcopalians, a mere speck on the backside of global Anglicanism compared to provinces like Nigeria, Uganda and Kenya, will evaporate even further. The orthodox are fleeing even as we speak. Your prescription for total control will be a hollow victory. Your "tolerance" will have triumphed.

You have made your own Procrustean bed of intolerance, Mr. Hamilton, and you will have to lie in it.

END

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Poster Thread
john123
Posted: 2007/6/3 22:42  Updated: 2007/6/4 13:48
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/7/12
From:
Posts: 394
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
David. Take a deep breath, relax, and let it out slowly. Enjoy the rest of the day.

Those of us who have the misfortune to live in the Diocese of Olympia are only too aware of the lunacy, and some would add, meanness and vindictiveness, that is alive in the Episcopal Church in this Diocese. And this is why the Diocese is dying.

Let me give you an update and another example of lunacy and meanness.

Readers will recall your comments about the debacle surrounding the salary of the Dean of St Mark's Cathedral who, it appears, was unable to live on a salary less than $175,000 a year. What is so interesting about all this, as now reported in the June issue of the Episcopal Voice - the diocene rag - is the fact that one of the staff that was laid off because of a budget shortfall, the Rev Janet Campbell, Director of Liturgy and Arts, was not only forced to move because of being laid off, but she was within 13 months of earning her pension.

Is it ever any wonder that the Rev Janet Campbell stated that "The Church is the worst employer." True she may feel this way, but the dean must think the opposite.

How many people in the congregation earn $479 a day, plus benefits.

But the dean and this outrageous salary raises a number of vexing questions..

Just what does a dean do to earn $479 a day? What would be the consequence if he failed to show up for work for the next 12 months? Nothing. I don't think he would be missed. Think of all the many members of the congregation who are better educated, more experienced, who work long hours and have demanding jobs and responsibilites who do not earn even 50% of what the dean now earns.

And so it goes on. A position in the Episcopal Church is no longer a calling . It's a job; and a very well paying job with no responsibilites or accountabilites. And this is, but one of the many cancers that is eating away at the body.
Fisherman
Posted: 2007/6/3 23:01  Updated: 2007/6/3 23:01
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/8/25
From: Dallas - Province of the Southern Cone, DoFW
Posts: 675
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
'Until now we have not prepared well to face this assault. And so we have been blinded to this narrow totalitarian vision seeping into our nation's and our faith's - and even our Communion's - DNA.'

Herein lies the problem Mr. Hamilton. It takes DNA in order to reproduce. Without reproduction your 'faith' will perish.
Ikerliker
Posted: 2007/6/4 1:32  Updated: 2007/6/4 1:32
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/1/16
From: PA
Posts: 2046
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
Inclusion includes everybody but US! Funny how that works.

Within 5 years, TEC will collapse in an apostate heap. I stated before, KJS will be the last TECkie standing. She'll get to turn out the lights when she leaves.
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/6/4 1:41  Updated: 2007/6/4 1:41
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6772
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
If the dean can't live on what the diocese was paying him before he got the raise, there is something very, very WRONG with this idiot's thinking! Now, my wife and I don't live in that area (thank God!), but we're retired and living quite nicely, thank you very much, on around $60,000 per year!

He needs to think about this: There are undoubtedly many people in the diocese who work far harder for about half of what he gets for doing so little, and they think they're fortunate to earn what they do!

He also needs to remember that his occupation is a CALLING....NOT a PROFESSION!

Cennydd
Causidicus
Posted: 2007/6/4 3:37  Updated: 2007/6/4 3:49
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/3
From:
Posts: 1076
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
The gaybyrage lobby is a "canary in a coal mine"? What? They don't look unhealthy to me. In fact, they are screaming, raging, fuming and foaming at the mouth loud as can be. The insightful writer of the article pointed out that the ones dying to TEC style religion are the orthodox not the whining gayby's and their hate filled admirers.

But then, the Orthodox seem to find new life as soon as they die to the old one, don't they...

By the way, who is "David Virtu"? He writes an excellent article, much like Mr. Virtue.
lapittengr
Posted: 2007/6/4 6:04  Updated: 2007/6/5 15:09
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/21
From:
Posts: 195
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
Honestly, people, it's just the more of the same every day.

Why is anyone bothering to be surprised or outraged any more. The writing has been on the wall for 40 years.


I begin to seriously doubt that many folks still in TEc are ever going to leave -- the "traditionalists" or "reasserters" in it -- already tainted by 30 years of apostasy from the apostolic & catholic faith -- are just going to keep wringing their hands to feel good about themselves, and keep staying yoked to the rotting corpse and keep compromising bit by bit.

At some point, reading news and posting in outrage is no longer education and edification -- it's just avoidance and self-deception.


pax,
LP
otispage2
Posted: 2007/6/4 9:09  Updated: 2007/6/4 9:09
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/3/14
From:
Posts: 609
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
"To know a person's religion we need not listen to his profession of faith but must find his brand of intolerance."

Eric Hoffer (1902-83), U.S. philosopher. The Passionate State of Mind, aph. 215 (1955).
dvirtue
Posted: 2007/6/4 12:03  Updated: 2007/6/4 12:03
Webmaster
Joined: 2004/1/2
From:
Posts: 165
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
It was a mis-spelling now corrected.

David Virtue
VOL
Masha
Posted: 2007/6/4 12:30  Updated: 2007/6/4 12:30
Quite a regular
Joined: 2004/11/6
From:
Posts: 44
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
Causidicus said the best thing I've heard in ages:

"But then, the Orthodox seem to find new life as soon as they die to the old one...."

Christus vincit!
mathman
Posted: 2007/6/4 12:40  Updated: 2007/6/4 12:41
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/5/26
From: Rockville, MD
Posts: 1041
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
Where did the Rev. Nigel Taber-Hamilton learn his propaganda?
I took a course in propaganda once. TH+ uses all of the techniques.
He uses labels. He finds perjoratives and applies them. He castigates, intimidates, and mocks.
As Dr. Virtue rightly observes, the organization and the intimidation and the imperial ideology is on the side of the revisionists. Who organized and spoke with a single voice? Integrity and Via Media, that's who. Who systematically exercises narrow-mindedness? The revisionist Bishops who refuse applications to the Priesthood from any orthodox believer, that's who. Who prevaricates? The Presiding Bishops who make a promise to the Church and promptly turn around and break it, that's who.
And lastly, to be a fundamentalist is to hold to a system of thought and list of thinking and reasoning points without the ability or need to hear a different point of view. The revisionists, IMHO, are canonical and inclusionist fundamentalists. They will hear nothing about the validity or consistency of the canons. The canons, to hear them tell it, are dispositive in a way that the Bible is not. Inclusion is so fundamental that where radical inclusion conflicts with repentance, it is repentance which must go.

Pure propaganda, unenlightened with any ability to shine light on a difficult topic.
HowieG
Posted: 2007/6/4 12:57  Updated: 2007/6/4 12:57
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/1
From: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 231
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
Typical liberal revisionist diatribe by Hamilton. He can't win any argument based upon the merits of his position or knowledge, so, he attacks the person (in this case the orthodox believers. Name calling and the "off with his head" (regards to Carroll) mantra is what one would expect from the likes of Hamilton.

In the long run, it won't matter. This time next year, he will have is own religion to whine about when TEc(Cult) is on its own.

H
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/6/4 12:57  Updated: 2007/6/4 12:57
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6772
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
Mathman, you score some good points, as usual!

I'm going to come right out and label this Hamilton character and describe him for what he really is: A blatant liar and a heretic of the first order! A non-Christian and an abysmal excuse for a so-called "clergyman." He is nothing more than a mere shill for everything bad happening in the Church today.

I wouldn't give this guy the time of day, nor would I pay any more attention to him than a toad crossing the street!

Cennydd
Johnnh
Posted: 2007/6/4 13:20  Updated: 2007/6/4 13:34
Quite a regular
Joined: 2006/6/30
From: Princeton, NJ
Posts: 41
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
David, Of course you have it right in spades here. But the mess is so bad that I wonder if it can ever be straightened out in the Anglican Communion, especially in the English Church itself. What we have is not true liberalism, but a castrated mindset that is unable and unwilling to reflect and discuss the range of theology and anthropology necessary to envision Chrustian Truth in our time. It amounts to a cheap and facile "buzzword" sociology. I had a very close friend when I was a student long ago at the Episcopal Theological School in Cambridge. We were both Catholic minded Episcopalians. He entered the SSJE order, but after a few years he departed for Rome, saying to me, "I finally decided that the Episcopal Church is good for one thing and one thing only. It is good for LEAVING!" And that was nearly 30 years ago, for God's sake! A very bright and reflective individual, he eventually became a Dominican priest. He left for many of the reasons you suggest in your excellent essay above. The comprehensive, ecumenical and catholic mindset was gone and he knew it would never return. It's like a sinking ship. Not only that, but staying is for many of us as it certainly was for him, an enormous distraction of time, concentration, energy and serenity from a healthy spiritual attention to one's own life in common with others. When the English Church attempts soon to set some restrictive guidelines, it will be a complete circus, worth the price of admission. The essential fragmentation and weakness of heart and mind will then be revealed to all the world. It is largely (with certain glaring exceptions of which we are all aware)a whiny, effemniate church, lacking masculine clarity, tenacity and courage, and most of all, a deep faith!
Rachmnnoff
Posted: 2007/6/4 13:32  Updated: 2007/6/4 13:32
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/3/15
From: Mauna Kea@13796 ft.
Posts: 338
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
Nigel Hamilton needs to take a *chill pill*. The froth that he belches signifies unstable thought processes.
ejsteele
Posted: 2007/6/4 14:34  Updated: 2007/6/4 14:34
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/10/18
From:
Posts: 352
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
All of Nigel's faulty reasoning aside, there is something that troubles me for all orthodox (with a small "o") Christians.

One of the bullet points was: "Be firm that, while we welcome everyone on this journey, we will not allow bigotry or threat to destroy this emerging vision of Christian faith in light of a God who makes all things new."

If the progressives really believe this, then what is happening is a re-writing of Christian doctine. The "emerging vision" he speaks of is nothing short of the total deconstruction of our faith, which far too many people are falling for.
Granted, God does "make all things new" in context, but Jesus - God incarnate - is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

So while it is indeed infuriating that such garbage as good ol' Nigel has put forth is being written, the more important issue is that some people actually believe it.

Ed
Johnnh
Posted: 2007/6/4 15:11  Updated: 2007/6/4 16:10
Quite a regular
Joined: 2006/6/30
From: Princeton, NJ
Posts: 41
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
John Henry Newman in his Development of Christian Doctrine, says somehere that through history, the Church and its doctrine must change in the process of a long enriching develpment IN ORDER TO REMAIN THE SAME! There must be an organic continuity observable that makes for such change to be a true development, and not merely a novel departure in accomodation to contempory trendiness. Some of these people need to read Newman, but they wouldn't and even if they did, they couldn't possibly understand him! Their minds are on the Moon somewhere. This is what happens when religion is reduced to sheer gemutlich sentimentality.
Showmeguy
Posted: 2007/6/4 17:51  Updated: 2007/6/4 17:51
Quite a regular
Joined: 2007/3/29
From: Oklahoma
Posts: 58
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
Reading through statements from the revisionists, I'm reminded of what I received in the mail Saturday. It was the latest issue of Episcopal Life/Oklahoma's Mission, which I continue to get, even though I resigned from ECUSA/TEC over a year ago. I scanned through it, before relegation to file 13, not much but dissing of the Orthodox, and diatribes of what intolerant Neandrathals, those of us who choose to continue believing in the Scriptures, are. And they call US intolerant???
ZachS
Posted: 2007/6/4 21:41  Updated: 2007/6/5 2:36
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/5/1
From:
Posts: 210
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
lapittengr:

Well Said!


"At some point, reading news and posting in outrage is no longer education and edification -- it's just avoidance and self-deception.

Exactly. It is in this way that the orthodox so called have become as pathetic as the revisionists. Just another type of as you say "avoidance and self deception"

But careful, Esaldorie and MicroCar got tossed from this sight for confronting orthodox avoidance a little too contemptuously.

Lapittengr. You, Sinner, myself and a few other can only challenge the inherently inert self protective orthodoxy that remains in the TEC,ACoC and CoE so much. To call corruption by association as such, is dangerous.

Say no to censorship. Say yes to decisiveness, freedom, awareness, courage and action.

Actions speak louder than words.

ZachS
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/6/4 22:20  Updated: 2007/6/4 22:21
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6772
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
ZachS, there's no room for compromise!

I don't mind being labelled "intolerant" when it comes to telling the truth, and I'll go the extra mile in extolling that truth; even if it means being warned to "cool it."

But, I know when to cool it, and I have to admit that at times, if I wrote what I really thought, I'd probably get tossed, too! So I tone things down a bit....even if I don't like it.

Cennydd
lapittengr
Posted: 2007/6/5 1:32  Updated: 2007/6/5 15:08
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/21
From:
Posts: 195
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
Staying informed, keeping up on the news, networking -- these are all good things. The problem comes when they become a substitute for action.

As the Continuing church movement rightly diagnosed 30 years ago, TEc is lost to genuine Christianity. One might argue that it had not "crossed the line" yet at that point -- indeed, the movement which became the "Epsicopal Synod" (and eventually, some of the threadbare remnants of which formed the core of the AMiA last decade) argued exactly that.

But history has shown that the Continuers were right in seeing that the slide, at that point -- after Pike, the new BCP, WO, the agenda of those who controlled the seminaries -- was irreversable.


So the danger, now, is that folks use news and networking not to educate themselves on the issues and escape to a church which is not spiritually corrupting (either directly -- by the nature of one's parish, priest or bishop -- or indirectly -- by being in spiritual and sacramental communion with those who deny God; by being "yoked" to unbelievers) but rather use them to _avoid_ taking these necessary steps.


Commenting on news, posting outraged surprise -- well, that's all well and good.

But I think it counts for less than nothing if, come the next Sunday, you're back in a TEc parish giving time, money and energy to build it up -- rather than doing what you can to help your parish and its people escape TEc, or, if that's impossible, helping the faithful remnant to find or start a new genuinely Anglican Christian parish. Counts for nothing if you use your time, talent and treasure not to build up the body of Christ but, instead, to continue to give mouth-to-mouth to a corpse.


So, by all means, speak the truth with love. By all means pass along the news you get from VOL.

But when that becomes the "end" rather than the "means" -- when it strikes you as enough just to keep up on the news and post your shock at whatever the week's latest bit of apostasy and sins against the Spirit committed by TEc... and then you uncomplainingly and contentedly trot back to TEc again the next Sunday, thus spiritually receiving from and communing with Spong and Bennison and VGR and KJS -- then there's something wrong.


pax,
LP
ZachS
Posted: 2007/6/5 2:19  Updated: 2007/6/5 2:45
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Joined: 2007/5/1
From:
Posts: 210
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
Cennydd: What I'm saying and which lapittengr is saying still more delicately is that lingering in the TEC waiting for something ideal to happen visa your Bishop, the Network or the GS Primates is no longer holding much credibility. You can't wait for the likes of Howe, Schofield, Duncan, etc. to do something. Good men though they are, they are not yielding any signs that they are prepared to suffer any kind of loss.

Jesus said we must suffer loss in order to follow him. Losing the comforts of status, position, financial security and of giving up the idol of the familiar parish community with it's building MUST be made by orthodox Anglican/Episcopalian clergy and lay to be just that. To be truly and biblically Orthodox in the manner expected of us by our very first overseers The Apostles.

You must all translate your disgust into the actions of faith that makes not only a public and ecclesiastical statement but more importantly in terms of authenticity, a Kingdom statement, one that resonates into eternity!

We have done it with God's help and survived. You can too.
With much care.

ZachS
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/6/5 3:16  Updated: 2007/6/5 3:18
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6772
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
ZachS, we will do it with God's help, and we will survive! I am quite certain that we will do it in October at Convention; legally, and with proper notice to TEC.

Cennydd
lkwells
Posted: 2007/6/5 10:17  Updated: 2007/6/5 10:17
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Joined: 2005/2/19
From:
Posts: 607
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
lapittenger: One of your best lines: "are just going to keep writing their hands to feel good about themselves, and keep staying yoked to the rotting corpse and keep compromising bit by bit." Yes, I know people like that. One of them comments regularly here, even on this very thread.
lkwells
Posted: 2007/6/5 10:19  Updated: 2007/6/5 10:19
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Joined: 2005/2/19
From:
Posts: 607
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
"we will do it in October at Convention."
(The boy who cried wolf.)

Which October do you mean, Cennwydd?
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/6/5 12:24  Updated: 2007/6/5 12:25
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6772
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
October, 2007, when we take the second vote to remove all mention of The Episcopal Church from our constitution. Whether or not I am crying "wolf" remains to be seen.

I know you're only trying to be helpful, but I think you need to familiarize yourself about this diocese and know us before making any statements about us or our motives. I believe you've only heard part of the story.

Do some research into what we're doing before you judge us.

Cennydd
doc4sale
Posted: 2007/6/5 13:07  Updated: 2007/6/5 13:07
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2006/1/1
From: Michigan
Posts: 99
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
Well done David. Thank you again for speaking up for us and for the Reform movement. We are finally beginning to flush some of these churls out of their complacent and smug hidy holes. In Michigan the Bishops go about clapping each other on their collective liberal backs and smiling false and reassuring smiles for the cameras.... West Michigan must sell its Cathedral and the other Diocese are teetering on the brink of insolvancy...were it not for consistanly raiding monies in Trust who knows where they'd be ? Doc
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/6/5 17:38  Updated: 2007/6/5 17:38
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6772
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
Doc4sale, I have a feeling that some more dioceses are on the verge of going belly up unless they start selling off property in wholesale lots. Look for some to go to 815 for a handout....and guess where that'll come from!

Trust funds don't last forever, and endowments can be withdrawn, the last I heard. Of course, there ARE investments....but then, they're at the mercy of the stock market, aren't they?

Cennydd
patulous
Posted: 2007/6/5 21:14  Updated: 2007/6/5 21:14
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/5/18
From:
Posts: 1762
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
To all of you that write your weary prose on this story and others of weeks gone by, and of those that will surely arrive for your faithful pen, Read the "Almost Christian". A sermon by George Whitefield. Examine, read and listen and find yourselves in the words.
Wilhelm
Posted: 2007/6/6 16:55  Updated: 2007/6/6 17:04
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/6/19
From: The Colonies
Posts: 172
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
Good heavens, come now "Comrade" Nigel! That's just what the Fuhrer said before invading Finland.....

We're stuck on this wheel since the book of Genesis (reruns-reruns-reruns) until we die, unless we follow Christ.
Leonard
Posted: 2007/6/7 18:39  Updated: 2007/6/7 18:39
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2004/11/2
From: Denver
Posts: 141
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
I recall a poem I read many years back; I don't recall the author:

The other day I chanced to meet
an angry man upon the street.
A man of wrath;
a man of war.
He was a man who truculently bore
across his shoulder,
like a lance,
a banner labeled "TOLERANCE".

And when I asked him why he strode
thus scowling down the human road,
scowling, he answered: "I am he
who champions total liberty.
Intolerance being, ma'am, a state
no tolerant man can tolerate!"

"When I meet rogues," he cried, "who choose
to cherish oppositional views;
lady like THIS, and in THIS manner
I lay about me with my banner,
'til they cry 'mercy,' ma'am!"

Fearful I turned, and left him there,
still muttering as he thrashed the air:
"Let the intolerant beware!"
Caroll
Posted: 2007/6/8 6:21  Updated: 2007/6/8 6:21
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/2/22
From:
Posts: 289
 Re: THE LIMITS OF INTOLERANCE
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