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Exclusives : Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says Williams
Posted by David Virtue on 2007/4/8 23:00:00 (6176 reads)

Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says Williams

By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
4/8/2007

The Archbishop of Canterbury told a small group of liberal and revisionist Episcopal bishops, meeting in South Africa recently, that the future of The Episcopal Church (TEC) in the Anglican Communion lies with the primates and not himself.

At the Boksburg conference on Millennium Development Goals and AIDS, Pennsylvania Bishop Charles E. Bennison, along with eight liberal TEC bishops, asked Dr. Williams; "When after September 30 will a decision about our place in the Communion be made, and will you be the one to make it?" Williams replied that he would leave the decision to the Primates - the same group that had authored the Communique.

"This left me fearful for our future in the Communion," wrote Bennison in a letter to his diocese. "On the other hand, his statement that he did not know when a decision would be made reassured me that no one is rushing to judgment or desirous to dismiss us."

Bennison said these demands were hanging in the air when the Boksburg conference convened, and seemed to hang over everything that went on at the conference.

"While the public agenda of that conference focused on how Anglicans worldwide can implement United Nations Millennium Development Goals such as gender equality, environmental sustainability, poverty eradication, maternal health, and child mortality reduction, the hidden agenda of the more than 400 Anglicans, gathered at Boksburg from around the world, concerned how our House of Bishops would respond by the September 30 deadline set in the February 19 Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, Communique of the Anglican Communion's Primates," said Bennison.

"Concerned that the Episcopal Church is practicing a standard of teaching on human sexuality different from that advised by the Communion's Bishops at the 1998 Lambeth Conference, the Primates requested that: (1) We commit to the design process for an Anglican Covenant (defining 'authentic Anglicanism') that will be discussed at the 2008 Lambeth Conference, later perfected by the Anglican Consultative Council, and then sent to each of the Communion's thirty-eight provinces for ratification - in our case, by the 2009 General Convention in Anaheim; (2) We not authorize same-sex blessings or ordain partnered or non-celibate homosexual persons; (3) We neither pursue property dispute litigation where rectors, wardens, and vestries have sought to wrest their land and buildings from the Episcopal Church, nor alienate properties from the Episcopal Church; and (4) We establish a Pastoral Council to negotiate structures for the pastoral care of parishes dissenting from recent General Convention decisions and appoint a Primatial Vicar to whom the Presiding Bishop would delegate specific powers and duties in places where her ministry is deemed unacceptable.

"Confirmation of my assessment came a few days later when two dozen bishops from elsewhere joined seven of us from the Episcopal Church for a heart-felt sharing of our expectations for the proposed 2008 Lambeth Conference, and whether it should be about mission or sexual ethics, or both.

An hour into the conversation Nathaniel Makoto Uematsu, the Primate of Japan, confessed with deep emotion how grieved he was when 'at the recent Primates' Meeting some said that if others holding some views on some things came to Lambeth, they would neither attend nor permit their bishops to do so.'

"There ensued what I can only call a 'holy silence' that lasted a seemingly endless time as thirty-one human souls and shepherds of Christ's church contemplated the seriousness of what had just been said and the lengths each may go to maintain communion with the others. But it was also an 'awkward silence' in the face of what is still for most an unmentionable a subject - sexuality - because it is considered so sacred."

Bennison went on to opine that the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communions' thirty-eight provinces also differ significantly over baptism. He said most of the provinces do not have in their Prayer Books the Baptismal Covenant "as we do."

"Amidst tensions between the Episcopal Church and the majority of the thirty-eight autonomous churches of the Anglican Communion it is important to recognize that the major difference between most of the others in the Communion and us is that they do not have in their Prayer Books the Baptismal Covenant," he said.

Bennison said that the wider Communion's difficulty with TEC's Baptismal Covenant came out during lengthy plenary sessions on the last full day of the Boksburg conference when he went to the microphone and argued that we should include the words, "We advocate opening the Lord's table to all, including infants and children, at baptism."

Bennison said Archbishop Ndungane, seated near him, "grimaced visibly. Someone went to a mike to challenge me about what I could possibly mean." Bennison said his suggestion was the most controversial of the day and the only one not included in the final document that came out of Boksburg.

At the final Eucharist of the conference, for which the Episcopal Church was responsible, "we included the words of our Baptismal Covenant, but called it a '"Baptismal Commitment,'" so as not to offend," he said.

Bennison said that while The Episcopal Church was singing "a new song" about human sexuality, he opined, "It is a song many in the Communion still find difficult to sing, largely because 'family' is still at the heart of their socially constructed relational lives. With its hierarchical organization, its patriarchal episcopate, and its bishops' wives presiding over each diocese' Mothers' Union, the church in many places of the Anglican Communion is still more of an extension of the 'family' than a diverse, inclusive community."

"By the end of our time in Boksburg, members of the Episcopal Church who were present felt that as a Communion we are in fact bound together indissolubly in Baptism and nothing we can do now or in the future can change that indissoluble reality."

He also said that others around the Communion would be profoundly grieved were the TEC to be dismissed from the Communion or have "our membership in it in any way downgraded. We are today the church that we are, informed by the Baptismal Covenant, and standing on the positions we have taken, including that on homosexual persons, and to be other than who we are is to fail the Communion by holding back from it the gift of who we are."

Bennison also said that if Presiding Bishop Schori were to be dismissed from the Primates' Meetings, or its representatives from the Anglican Consultative Council, or from the 2008 Lambeth Conference, "we would still continue to give our time, energy, and the 36% of the Communion's budget that we presently fund in order to see the mission of the Communion go forward."

Bennison, the ultra-liberal Bishop of Pennsylvania, faces presentment charges and will stand before a panel of his peers over allegations that he is financially mismanaging the diocese. He also faces civil charges of fraud and emotional distress, filed against him by Fr. David L. Moyer, a priest who was fraudulently and illegally "deposed" by Bennison. Moyer remains in his parish, the Church of the Good Shepherd in Rosemont, PA, despite efforts by Bennison to toss him out.

END

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Poster Thread
ZachD
Posted: 2007/4/9 2:40  Updated: 2007/4/9 2:42
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/11/10
From:
Posts: 1791
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
For Bennison and his ilk:

Shut up. Shut up, and shut up!
We are more than sick of your loathsome puke!

It is time to take a pair of shears to the beloved family photo! Beginning with the known heretics - snip snip!
Then deal the rest through examination of statements and actions within their foul administrations. Snip, snip.

Snip snip!


Until then, we cannot heal but only accomodate.
cuervoria
Posted: 2007/4/9 9:05  Updated: 2007/4/9 9:05
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/6/15
From: College Station, Texas
Posts: 541
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Quote:
" . . . the church in many places of the Anglican Communion is still more of an extension of the 'family' than a diverse, inclusive community."


Family [instituted by God in Genesis] BAD.

Hodgepodge of beliefs [Judges 21:25] GOOD.

How bass-ackwards can you get?

de la Cuervoria
Fisherman
Posted: 2007/4/9 11:43  Updated: 2007/4/9 11:43
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/8/25
From: Dallas - Province of the Southern Cone, DoFW
Posts: 675
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Says Bennison: " 'family' is still at the heart of their socially constructed relational lives."

I have said many times that these people neither read nor understand scripture; in this case book 1 - Genesis. They also neither understand basic biology nor the importance of human reproduction and offspring nurturing.

There's a reason for marriage, family and the continuation of the species. So Bennison is correct in this observation: " 'family' is still at the heart of their socially constructed relational lives."

And yet they would rather we not concern ourselves with this basic need mandated by God Almighty. Rather they would have us focus on same-sex unions where there would be no family or reproduction. And within a generation or so there would be no need for the UN and MDG's.

So for Bennison’s benefit I offer Genesis 1: 27-28 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

And this bishop is why " 'family' is still at the heart of their socially constructed relational lives."
daveball
Posted: 2007/4/9 11:55  Updated: 2007/4/9 11:55
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/12/18
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2377
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
As tempting as it may be to parse and critique this ridiculous statement, it would be a waste of time as there is nothing new in anything Bennison says therefore little meaningful comment could be offered.

I know I am getting really tired of hearing the same whining about "fellowship", "family", "communion" and the sickening "MDG in place of Gospel" stuff. Give it up. TEC wants fellowship on its terms. They want the entire army to change because they are out of step. Won't happen.

My only question at this point is "Why wait until September 30?"
boggy
Posted: 2007/4/9 13:01  Updated: 2007/4/9 13:01
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/8/29
From:
Posts: 167
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
"By the end of our time in Boksburg, members of the Episcopal Church who were present felt that as a Communion we are in fact bound together indissolubly in Baptism and nothing we can do now or in the future can change that indissoluble reality."

Not true.
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/4/9 13:08  Updated: 2007/4/9 13:29
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6862
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Daveball, I too am sick and tired of Bennison and his cronies! The sooner the primates give 'em the heave, the better! And +++Williams is right in saying it's up to them to make the decision, and not him. I think that he too is tired of this crap, and wants to wash his hands of the whole deal.

I think he has said he is doing just exactly that.

Cennydd
APBIDDLE
Posted: 2007/4/9 14:19  Updated: 2007/4/9 14:19
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2004/3/20
From: Franklin, TN
Posts: 28
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Playing the victim just isn't playing very well, Benny+. My only question, given the responses of the HoB and PB, is why wait for September 30th?
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/4/9 14:31  Updated: 2007/4/9 14:31
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Quote:
But it was also an 'awkward silence' in the face of what is still for most an unmentionable a subject - sexuality - because it is considered so sacred."


I was half-way joking about "The Sacrament of the Holy Orgasm".

I see that our TEc bishops are not.

May the Lord God Almighty have mercy on America.
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/4/9 14:36  Updated: 2007/4/10 16:16
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Quote:
Bennison went on to opine that the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communions' thirty-eight provinces also differ significantly over baptism. He said most of the provinces do not have in their Prayer Books the Baptismal Covenant "as we do."


All the more reason to burn the 1979 Book of Abominable Services!

If you or your child was "baptized" according to that formulation I would be very worried. Yeah yeah yeah the baptism itself seems to be by water and "in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost" but -- big but --

You also committed yourself, essentially, to be a Bolshevik Revolutionary. Think I'm kidding? Read Lenin's "What is to be Done?" (email me if you can't find it on the web.)

Here's a serious proposal: create a "Baptismal Covenant Dismissal" ceremony, undoing all but the legitimate elements of Holy Baptism still present, in rump form in the 1979BAS, and committing the sad soul to the true Christian faith as found in BCP 1662 etc.

Thank God I insisted my boy be baptized by 1662, against my rector's written instructions to me.

^^^POST-SCRIPT: I should make clear that we were finally permitted to use the 1662 service, but only in a private, family ceremony. Sorry for any confusion out there!
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/4/9 14:41  Updated: 2007/4/9 14:41
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Thank you fisherman.

Bennison ("BenniSin" as some in Philly call him) is insane.
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/4/9 14:42  Updated: 2007/4/9 14:42
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
"Nuts!"
john123
Posted: 2007/4/9 15:17  Updated: 2007/4/9 15:21
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Joined: 2006/7/12
From:
Posts: 399
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Good morning Cennydd. A rainy day in the North West.

I know that you have feelings for Williams. I don't. He is a failed leader and, as a consequence, part of the problem and not part of the solution, unless of course he resigns immediately.

Cennyd you note that you "think that he (Williams) too is tired of this crap, and wants to wash his hands of the whole deal". To my mind, this is precisely the problem. Nobody knows what Williams really thinks, if indeed he thinks at all.

As for washing his hands of the whole deal, I think Pilot and Christ quickly come to mind.

And this to my mind is the crux of the matter. Williams has never stood tall for God, Christ, the Bible and orthodoxy as you and I understand things. As a consequence, for myself, I "think" that he supports the revisionists. At least, to my knowledge, he has never unequivocally stated he does not lean in their direction.

And so we are all left to "think". But none of us really knows what Williams thinks. In this regard, instead of grabbing the bull by the horns, so to speak, and saying loudly and clearly, here I stand and fall, he has attempted to be political and negotiate the basic tenents of our Christian Faith. But, as you and I know Cennydd, the basic tenents of our Faith are are not negotiable. As a consequence, he has failed all-God, the revisionists and the orthodox. Had Williams said "No" at the beginning we would not be in the mess we find ourselves today.

It takes me back to the operations center in my old naval days. To the question,"what is the Captain going to do' would come the reply, "he is.....". I can never remember hearing anyone saying " I think the Captain ....." Such uncertainty would have resulted in chaos. Everyone on the team has to know in uniquivocal terms where the Captain stands.

And the same goes in the Church.
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/4/9 15:45  Updated: 2007/4/9 15:45
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6862
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
John123, I think that part of the problem with Archbishop Williams is that he is an academic who has been thrust into a role for which he was not eminently well-suited. Certainly, a better choice could've been found, but the question is, where else in the Church of England could they have found another choice?

My personal choice would have been +Michael Nazir-Ali, the current Bishop of Rochester, but I'm sure there are one or two others who would do just as well, or even better.

I don't agree with +++Rowan Williams on every issue....far from it. He is, and has been, too wishy-washy on the really important issues, and that's why I think he's out of his element.

The Church of England and the Anglican Communion need a strong leader who isn't afraid of making waves and stepping on people's toes if necessary. Not someone with the authority of a pope, but somewhere in between the Primates' Council and the equivalent of a papacy. In other words, a "first among equals" who has some real authority.

I don't know all of the answers, and I don't think any of us does. The truth is, we need to allow the primates time to come to a common consensus as to who has the final word in this Communion of ours, and to back that consensus with some real authority. But the problem with this is that some think they've already had enough time....more than enough, according to some!

Who knows how much time is enough? Should they rush quickly into something like this, or should they think things out carefully and thoroughly before making a decision?

Cennydd
fastball
Posted: 2007/4/9 16:18  Updated: 2007/4/9 16:18
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/6/29
From: Oklahoma City
Posts: 555
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
'..."we would still continue to give our time, energy, and the 36% of the Communion's budget that we presently fund in order to see the mission of the Communion go forward."'
-------------------------------------------------

Please don't! Besides you'll need all your time and energy trying to decide what to do with all those empty buildings. Just not enough homosexuals in this country to keep the doors open, darn it.

Oh, and you can keep your thirty pieces of silver as well, Judas. Maybe you can find a good deal on a field somewhere...

TEC is irrelevant to Christianity. Let them go their own way and get out of the path of the implosion.
john123
Posted: 2007/4/9 16:40  Updated: 2007/4/9 16:44
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/7/12
From:
Posts: 399
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Cennydd.

I was going to say,"I think". But this statement, I think", is what moved me to comment in the first place.

Cennydd. I know that you and I agree in so many areas. However, you and I do differ in one. To my mind, it is not a question of time. The issue should neve have been given time in the first place. It should never have been allowed to surface and then get out of hand. There should have been a statement loud and clear for all to aknowledge, understand. and, if they wanted to remain on the team, agreed to.

That position should have been made loud and clear by the spiritual leader of the communion. You agree -you are in. You do not agree -you are out. Period. game over.

No more time. No more talking. Either the Bible is right or it is wrong. If it is wrong, if truth is just relative and subject to change over time, then I might just as well roll over on a Sunday morning and go back to sleep as get up and go to Church.

No. To my mind, our Faith is a clear, straight forward, yes or no. There is no room for politics or compromise.

John
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/4/9 17:10  Updated: 2007/4/9 17:13
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6862
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
John, your answers are clear and to the point, as always....and I agree with you. The problem has been with those who disagree; namely of course, the revisionist heretics. I happen to agree that we should no longer tolerate TEC in the Anglican Communion, since they have so consistently shown that they actually intend to walk apart from us, and I am not at all pleased that the Archbishop hasn't come out forcefully on the issues facing us, and I have come to the opinion that he has to go.

I do not want the Communion to fall apart, and if it means that we need new leadership in order to keep us together, then so be it.

Our diocese of San Joaquin is, as you are well aware, in a somewhat precarious situation; being orthodox in a sea of heresy and apostasy. I'm also sure you know of our intention to formally sever our connections to TEC, as we voted to do last December. It will take a second vote this October at our diocesan convention for this to happen, and I am confident that it will, as I have said several times on this and other blog sites.

I cannot guess as to where we will go as a diocese, since that decision is in the Lord's hands, but I am assured that He will lead us on the right path.

I pray for the Church and the Anglican Communion.

Cennydd
daveball
Posted: 2007/4/9 17:22  Updated: 2007/4/9 17:22
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/12/18
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2377
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Cennydd, John and Others,

Yes, we obviously need new leadership. But would you not also agree that maybe it is time to reconsider the source of that leadership and its form?

I have suggested in another post that maybe the top spot should be opened up to any of the Primates, not just a British Bishop. In have also suggested that maybe the office, and possible some ancilliary organizational structure, be given some actual authority to define and discipline. This is a big change, to be sure.

Thoughts?
cjanning
Posted: 2007/4/9 18:29  Updated: 2007/4/9 18:29
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/12/19
From: Deep East Texas
Posts: 279
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
"This left me fearful for our future in the Communion," wrote Bennison in a letter to his diocese.

It seems to me that Charlie Bennison might be a bit more fearful of landing up in jail for the financial hijinks he'd pulled.
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/4/9 19:06  Updated: 2007/4/9 19:06
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6862
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Daveball, I've said the same thing about the office of Archbishop of Canterbury. As it stands now, this office must be occupied by a British subject, since the Church of England is actually a part of the Government, and therefore I believe that any change such as you suggested could come only after disestablishment. Apparently, there is some support for this in Britain, and perhaps one of our British cousins could expand upon this for us.

I see no reason why an archbishop from another province within the Anglican Communion couldn't be chosen to head the Church; especially if he were to come from another country within the British Commonwealth, such as Australia, New Zealand, or Canada, since the Queen is regarded as Queen of these countries.

And I do agree that the Archbishop of Canterbury needs to be given much more authority than he currently possesses; even to the point of discipline over errant provinces or primates. This authority could only come from the primates themselves, in my opinion.

Cennydd
john123
Posted: 2007/4/9 20:29  Updated: 2007/4/10 4:40
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/7/12
From:
Posts: 399
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Cennydd, Daveball and others of like mind.

We are agreed. Who cares where the spiritual leader of the Anglican Communio is from.? What his pedagree is? Not I. Our spiritual leader should be chosen from among the best qualified Anglicans anywhere in the world.

Yes, he should have powers. Powers to throw out those who thumb their nose at God, Christ, the Bible, etc. for example. But powers should also be provided to replace him should replacement be warranted. Where should this power of removal lay? It should, to my mind, lay in the hands of those who have the power to appoint him.--- the Primates of the Anglican Communion.

I fear that some will think I am becoming too RC. That is not intended. But the question needs an answer sooner rather than later, if we are all to hold together.

God's blessings
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/4/9 21:37  Updated: 2007/4/9 21:39
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6862
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
"Too RC," John? No, I don't think so. But something has got to be done, and the primates are the ones to do it! Whether or not the Archbishop will have the grace to retire, the choice for him will be to continue in office and hope that things will improve somehow, or retire for the good of all.

If I were a Briton and a member of the Church of England, I'd prefer the latter; coupled with a strong suggestion to Parliament that the Church of England be disestablished for the good of the Church.

Cennydd
Neill
Posted: 2007/4/10 0:10  Updated: 2007/4/10 0:10
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Joined: 2004/9/13
From: Pakistan
Posts: 158
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Cennydd, just a point of information on the constitution of the UK: the Church of England is not a part of the government. It is the Church by Law Established which gives it certain privileges and responsibilities, but being a part of the government is not one of them. True, there are a handful of bishops allowed to sit in the legislative upper house, the House of Lords, but their influence therein is minimal, and the House of Lords, being unelected, has only limited powers anyway.

A related point: it is sometimes stated that the ABC is chosen by the government but this is misleading. The General Synod of the Church has set up its own selecion procedure which results in two names being submitted to the Prime Minister for his final choice to recommend to HM the Queen for formal assent. The Monarch, unlike an American President, has no right of veto: under the Constitution she has to assent. This means that the General Synod's system of selection carries the prime responsibility for the person appointed to the top job in the C of E.

There is no requirement that I know of preventing the ABC being from an ecclesiastical Province outside England. AB Williams was previously in Wales, which is geographically and politically part of the UK but ecclesiastically not part of the Church of England. The Church in Wales was disestablished many years ago. I see no reason why the principle could not be extended to allow, say, an Australian bishop to become ABC, or a bishop in any country with the Queen as Head of State (in her capacity as Supreme Governor of the Church of England). It would be more difficult for a bishop from a country with its own Head of State.

Obviously, it is a legal spiders' web, and trying to reform it to deal with current requirements risks unravelling things best left alone. For example, many now call for disestablishment to free the Church to sort itself out without being hamstrung by constitutional niceties. However, at a time when moral revisionism is being pushed hard by the state and religious sensitivities trampled upon, is this really the time to let go? Some of us feel that it would just open the floodgates.
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/4/10 0:40  Updated: 2007/4/10 0:41
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6862
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Neill, Diolch yn Fawr (Thanks very much) for your clarification about the Church's relationship with Parliament. I am familiar with the selection process for appointment to the See of Canterbury.

Her Majesty's relationship with the Church is well understood in this country, and I understand the difficulty inherent in the appointment of a primate from a province whose country's government is not part of the British Commonwealth. That's why I mentioned Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

Pob Hywl! (Cheers!)

Cennydd
daveball
Posted: 2007/4/10 1:04  Updated: 2007/4/10 1:04
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From: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2377
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
I understand the potential problems with appointing someone to the See of Canterbury. Why does the leader have to be the See of Canterbury? Get GB out of it completely. Let the "home base" be wherever the chosen leader is.
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/4/10 2:34  Updated: 2007/4/10 2:34
Home away from home
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From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6862
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
In that case, daveball, let's plan on the next Archbishop of Canterbury being from Australia, Canada, or New Zealand....or somewhere else in the British Commonwealth. After all, being Anglican means being inextricably connected to England, doesn't it? In my Readers' Digest Illustrated Encyclopedic Dictionary, the word "Anglican" is defined as "of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the Church of England or any of the churches related to it in origin."

Any archbishop from a Commonwealth country should be able to occupy the throne of Archbishop of Canterbury, as long as he agrees to serve there. He would, after all, be a subject of the Crown and yet a citizen of his own country, it would seem to me.

Cennydd
john123
Posted: 2007/4/10 5:01  Updated: 2007/4/10 13:38
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/7/12
From:
Posts: 399
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Cennydd, I would argue that we must move beyond England and the British connection.

The Anglican Communion and Anglicanism has matured. Today, it can stand on it's own two feet anywhere. And it can be led by any Anglican from anywhere in the world.

What we ask, it seems to me, is that the spiritual leader be a decisive leader, a leader who upholds the basic tenets of our Christian Faith, a leader who will unabashedly exorcise apostasy, wherever it is found, without blinking an eye lid, a leader who will be totally respected, without reservations, by all.

(And, I should have added, to be respected one must earn that respect.)

Good night and God bless
mathman
Posted: 2007/4/10 10:40  Updated: 2007/4/10 10:40
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/5/26
From: Rockville, MD
Posts: 1064
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Quote:
Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!"

As I have posted before, there is no Baptismal Covenant. There is a New Covenant, or New Testament, enacted through the work of Jesus of Nazareth, called the Christ of God because of His Resurrection from the dead.
One enters the New Covenant through baptism, which symbolizes our incorporation into Jesus' death and resurrection (Romans 6).
So, to all you posters, I agree. It is time. There needs to be no more listening. Let us just get on with the divorce.
Ikerliker
Posted: 2007/4/10 11:34  Updated: 2007/4/10 11:34
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/1/16
From: PA
Posts: 2051
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
"and to be other than who we are is to fail the Communion by holding back from it the gift of who we are."

-Chuckles Bennison. Please shut up before you hurt yourself thinking again.
deaconM
Posted: 2007/4/10 14:49  Updated: 2007/4/10 14:49
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2007/2/21
From: At Large
Posts: 97
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
Thanks be to England and its unique political situation during the reformation for our heritage! I do think, however, that current reformation of the worlds most-populous protestant body might do well to rework the leadership structure and loose the Brittish tie. I'm sure that there are good analogies for origins and improvements being divergent (e.g. baseball in Japan), but I'm to dull to come up with a good one.

+/M
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/4/10 16:20  Updated: 2007/4/10 16:20
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
We in the US have a big one. It starts,

"When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another..."
FatherR
Posted: 2007/5/1 1:10  Updated: 2007/5/1 1:10
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2007/2/9
From: Wisconsin
Posts: 71
 Re: Primates To Decide Fate of TEC After Sept. 30, Says W...
I, too, would like to see the Church of England disestablished. The time of the state church is long past. ANd I think that we might very well try adapting some sort of legislation for the Anglican Communion where others than a British subject can become the Presiding Archbishop. Look what GB has given us! An Archbishop who doesn't have the backbone to lead the Communion!!! WHen I heard that Rowan Williams had be appoint AofC I was truly disappointed. At heart he is as liberal as Mrs. Schori. Let the Archbishop of Canterbury lead the English Church and let there be another Archbishop to preside over the Anglican Communion.
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