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Exclusives : TEC: House of Bishops Rejects Primates' Ultimatum
Posted by David Virtue on 2007/3/21 6:10:00 (14157 reads)

EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES' ULTIMATUM

News Analysis

By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
3/21/2007

The Episcopal Church House of Bishops has finally fallen on its sword. It has declared its independence from the Anglican Communion. By rejecting the Primates ultimatum set out in the communique in Tanzania that it must be in full accord with the Windsor Report, it has chosen to walk apart.

Earlier in the week we were told by the national church's news service that the TEC would "talk but not act". We were clearly mislead. A news blackout was lifted yesterday when the House of Bishops issued three mind of the house resolutions affirming that The Episcopal Church desired to remain a part of the councils of the Anglican Communion; that the TEC's actions are determined solely by the General Convention of The Episcopal Church and its canons and constitutions, and finally rejecting the Pastoral Scheme of the Dar es Salaam Communique (Feb.19, 2007) declaring it "injurious to The Episcopal Church."

The House of Bishops also declined to enter into any pastoral initiative designed by the primates to care for congregations and dioceses who, for reasons of conscience, cannot accept the episcopal ministry of their bishop or primate. QED.

The HOB slapped the faces of orthodox priests saying "the number of those who seek to divide our Church is small," and then concluded with an upbeat report saying "our Church is marked by encouraging signs of life and hope."

On hearing the news The Rt. Rev. John-David Schofield, Bishop of the Diocese of San Joaquin, and whose diocese might well be the first to leave The Episcopal Church, told VOL that he was not surprised at all by what the HOB did, but only the speed with which it happened. "I thought the HOB would meet prior to Sept. 30, but they dismissed the Primates call out of hand. Now they have the gall to ask for the Archbishop of Canterbury to spend three days in prayer with them! Who are they kidding!"

"I think what the HOB did is arrogant, incredible, and they claim that they desire to be a part of the Anglican Communion, but what they are basically saying is we want do it in our way and in our time."

This is going to have a profound affect on orthodox Episcopalians throughout the US, said Schofield, "People are going to scramble to do their best with this news, but we are already seeing a falloff. Orthodox folk are leaving orthodox priests and even an orthodox diocese like mine because of the apostasy of the church. People are pulling in their horns and they don't want to be counted. It is having an effect on faithful Episcopalians and they are saying they want no more even with an orthodox bishop...it is having an effect on small parishes and hamlets...we experiencing a loss of people."

Schofield said that when the HOB makes this statement that it only affects a small minority of people, they just don't get it. The parishes might be few in number but the human losses are huge.

Asked about what he thinks his diocese will do between now and the next Diocesan Convention in October when the diocese could vote to leave the TEC, the Anglo-Catholic bishop said anything could happen. "I am not going to predict what will happen. I am still stunned and amazed that the HOB acted so quickly. I did not attend the meeting, so I cannot comment on any of the inner workings or discussions. However, it is now clear to all of us that the HOB has no intention of adopting the moratoria requested by the Primates. Many of us knew that much before they met at Camp Allen!

The Rt. Rev. Jack Iker, Bishop of the Diocese of Ft. Worth told VOL that he was disappointed at these recent HOB statements. "It is my hope that the Archbishop of Canterbury proceeds with the appointment of the Primatial Council, as planned, and that Katharine goes ahead and appoints her two members to the Council, as she agreed she would in Dar es Salaam. The Windsor Bishops will soon nominate a Primatial Vicar and the Pastoral Scheme will begin to function. If the HOB is interested in reconciliation and mission, they will not try to block it, but to cooperate with it."

The Anglo-Catholic bishop concluded his statement and said this: "The statement adopted at Camp Allen seems to say that TEC is going to have an Anglican Communion on its own terms, whether the rest of the world likes it or not."

The Rt. Rev. William Wantland, former Bishop of Eau Claire had this to say: "First, I am deeply disturbed by the action of a number of heterophobic bigots, who encourage homosexuals to engage in a practice which is cruel and deadly. 91% of all male homosexuals engage in anal sodomy. Regular practice of anal sodomy will shorten human life an average of 26 years, even without factoring in AIDS. These people, purporting to act in the name of the Church, are as evil as those who would give whiskey to alcoholics. What 815 2nd Ave. (the national church's headquarters in New York City) is urging is death on a grand scale, and calling it care and support of their victims, without any regard for what they are doing. Don't ever say that TEC cares for or loves its homosexual members.

"Second, the action is also based on a blindness to history. How dare they say that TEC is totally autonomous, and that TEC is not answerable in either liturgy or canon to others in the Anglican Communion. Do they not know how PECUSA came into existence? When an American Book of Common Prayer was first proposed in 1785, it was submitted to the Archbishops of Canterbury and York for approval. The Archbishops found it unacceptable, and the Americans were told to make a number of changes. Likewise, in proposed Constitution and Canons, the process for electing Bishops was unacceptable. So, in 1789, when General Convention met, it approved a BCP acceptable to the Archbishops, and a canonical process of electing Bishops that conformed to the demands of the Archbishops. There was absolutely NO claim of autonomy and the right to do as Americans pleased. But now, TEC has become an imperial force, answerable to no one.

"TEC is no longer a Catholic body. It is no longer even a Christian one. It is simply an embodiment of a corrupt, historically inaccurate, spirit of this age. And if the Anglican Communion does not see TEC for what it really is, even that Communion will be on its way to be a miserable footnote in Christian history."

The bishops did not address the key issues on which the primates have requested a response-namely, whether TEC will abide by the Communion's standard of teaching on human sexuality (as expressed in Lambeth Resolution 1.10) by giving its assurance that it will not permit rites for same-sex blessings or consent to bishops living in same-sex unions.

Canon David C. Anderson, American Anglican Council president and CEO had this to say: "Without even addressing the deeper issues of belief and practice, the House of Bishops has answered the primates with a resounding 'no' to the question of whether or not the church is willing to abide by the mind of the Anglican Communion. If they cannot accommodate on the structural points of the primates' requests - which left TEC with considerable power - I do not see how they will ever turn back on the theological points. The church's desire for complete power and autonomy goes hand in hand with its rebellion against Scriptural authority."

The Rev. Greg Brewer, rector of the Church of the Good Samaritan, the evangelical/charismatic priest of one of the largest parishes in the Northeast U.S., wrote to his parish saying the ball is now in the court of the Archbishop of Canterbury and the other Primates as to how they will respond to the Episcopal Church's clear stance of non compliance.

"The response of the Episcopal Church indicates that, barring a dramatic miracle, the Episcopal Church's participation in the Anglican Communion will be severely diminished- at best; and the impaired state of communion between bodies within the global Anglican Communion will become the norm. In other words, the break within Anglicanism will now move to some sort of official status. The question remains as to what will happen to the various parishes and dioceses within the Episcopal Church who want to remain in full communion with the rest of Anglicanism by complying with all of the requests found in the communique."

"I want you to know that I consider the response of the House of Bishops to the communique to be unbiblical, arrogant and unduly nationalistic. The very nature of being an international Communion requires that particular conflicts that are internal to a portion of the Communion be resolved within the context of the entire Communion- a Communion that still considers submission to Holy Scripture to be foundational to its identity. It is disingenuous for one part of the Communion to try to try to claim full membership in the Communion, and –at the same time- rebel against the clear teaching of that Communion! Besides, a global Communion must be internally cohesive if it is going to have any internal integrity or any common witness in the eyes of the rest of the world."

Brewer, whose parish still remains in the Diocese of Pennsylvania under its revisionist Bishop Charles E. Bennison, said that while some conservatives and liberals may rejoice that the break within Anglicanism seems to be moving full speed ahead, he was not one of them.

"I consider this state of affairs to be deeply tragic. In some ways this feels similar to the choice that was before many American families in the heat of the Civil War. Opposition to slavery and a commitment to national unity on the one hand, and the support of slavery and the right of the confederacy to determine its own governance on the other, split families and friends. The price the United States paid was very high indeed, and the wounds from that war still scar the psychological landscape of our country. As the Communion splits, no one within the Communion will come out of this conflict unscathed."

END

As more comments from Bishops and Archbishops become available, VOL will add them to new stories.

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Poster Thread
lionheart
Posted: 2007/3/21 18:31  Updated: 2007/3/21 18:31
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/19
From:
Posts: 354
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
I think too many are taking for granted that the ABofC and the CofE will somehow go along with TEC's ouster. That remains to be seen and the evidence is, at best, equivocal.

I'm also curious as to why anybody cares whether TEC can sit at this or that gathering with the other Anglican churches. Is it not more important precisely whom they are in actual communion with? Will CofE bishops and priests refuse communion to TEC clergy and laymen?

lh
ejsteele
Posted: 2007/3/21 18:34  Updated: 2007/3/21 18:34
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/10/18
From:
Posts: 352
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
It is good to know that the regulars on the VOL site saw Camp Allen in the same light as many of the conservatives in leadership. This was the HOB's way of declaring independence and full autonomy, which will or won't be their undoing.

The question now is this: what's next?

Ed
griever
Posted: 2007/3/21 19:31  Updated: 2007/3/21 19:31
Just popping in
Joined: 2007/2/23
From: San Jose,California
Posts: 15
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
Quote:
It is incumbent upon us as disciples to do our best to follow Jesus in the increasing experience of the leading of the Holy Spirit.


How can they ignore, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever"?

Quote:
...we do not believe that Jesus leads us to break our relationships.


But the actions of TEC, rejecting the requests of others in the communion, are the source of the breaks. How can they not see their own hypocrisy?

Quote:
We proclaim the Gospel that in Christ all God's children, including gay and lesbian persons, are full and equal participants in the life of Christ's Church.


How can they not see that neither Judaism nor Christianity have had anything to do with freedom of sexual choice, but rather have constrained sexual choice (to our great good)?

How can they with any intellectual honesty do such damage to the Gospel and still pretend it is the same Gospel?
ejsteele
Posted: 2007/3/21 20:14  Updated: 2007/3/21 20:14
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/10/18
From:
Posts: 352
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
I just went to Google News, searched under "Anglican", and saw that AP has put out the HOB response. So it is now in the news that TEC has decided to accept homosexuality over Christian teaching and tradition. One story (from France no less) had a statement from Susan Russell.

Quote:
The Rev. Susan Russell of the Episcopal gay advocacy group Integrity compared the bishops' statement to a "coming out process."


Doesn't that just make you feel all warm and fuzzy?

Ed
unitarian
Posted: 2007/3/21 22:11  Updated: 2007/3/21 22:11
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/12/31
From: Bryn Mawr, PA
Posts: 307
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
Okay, Brother Lewis and other acute legal minds. Here is how I, a simple doctor of humane letters, analyze this:

(1) The whole purpose of ECUSA was to stay in communion with Canterbury. That was, as we say in legalese, its raison d'etre.

(2) Now ECUSA is saying that its current reason to exist is completely different from that which the led to its founding, guided its development, canons, usages, etc.

(3) So that means that ECUSA is no longer, by its own clear assertion and flouting of the legitimate resolutions emanating from the aforesaid Canterbury, the legitimate representative of the Ancient See of Canterbury and its Archbishop, and those Bishops who remain in communion with that Ancient See, over here, nor does it even claim to be.

(4) In other words, ECUSA is seceding from Anglicanism. This is the opposite of what it has been claiming, namely that parishes that fail to follow its innovations are doing the seceding.

(5) Therefore, those parishes that wish to remain loyal to the Ancient See of Canterbury will of necessity have to look elsewhere for episcopal oversight, since ECUSA no longer even claims to be able to provide that on behalf of that Ancient See.

(6) This means that ECUSA can no longer claim to be the established legal representative or counterpart of the Ancient See of Canterbury over here, nor the fiduciary and trustee for the Faithful Departed, their goods, chattels, beliefs, endowments, mortal remains, buildings, etc. etc. etc. It has of its own volition, freely and without let or hindrance, coercion, threats, or any external interference whatsoever, decided to abandon and irrevocably to relinquish that role.

(7)So all of us who used to be called continuing or departing or whatever are actually remaining and loyal. The big establishment has done the departing.

(8) Any claim of power over parishes by ECUSA would seem to me to require foundation in some notion that ECUSA is carrying out the Canterbury mission in America, since that is what the whole thing was always about. If they abandon that claim, then they abandon and irrevocably relinquish any legal basis to coerce, sue, anathematize, depose, inhibit, defame, confiscate, sequester, excommunicate, libel, limit, proscribe, prescribe, supervise, administer, punish, admonish, discipline, &c &c any and all persons, properties, endowments, structures, &c. &c. hitherto belong to or appertaining to any and all component parishes, clergy, corporate entities, fellowships, day camps, monasteries and convents, columbaria, cemeteries, carillons, shrines, parking lots, parishoners, pets, icons, moveable and immovable property, &c. &c. of the aforesaid ECUSA, given that it has fundamentally changed its mission and rationale, and that therefore any exercise of such aforesaid powers, or attempt to do so, would be utterly unjustified, null, void, invalid, without effect, empty, ultra vires, and in violation of both the canons of the Church and the Laws of the United States . . .

I am sure you can improve on this. But they can't be The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, linked indivisibly to the Ancient See of Canterbury, and also, simultaneously, not be.

Which means they cannot push us around on the basis of authority that they no longer claim and that they have definitvely foresworn.

They are simply a group of confused men and women who wear funny clothes and hats, have some odd ideas, and favor the color purple.

(9) What ECUSA now becomes, and on what sandbox it is built, will be interesting to watch. But it should be no concern of ours, except as an instructive lesson in how not to be a shepherd.

Happy litigating!!

With a thoroughly warranted grim smile

Boston Unitarian
Fisherman
Posted: 2007/3/21 23:10  Updated: 2007/3/21 23:10
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/8/25
From: Dallas - Province of the Southern Cone, DoFW
Posts: 675
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
Ecclesiastes 12:8 'Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher; all is vanity.'

It will be interesting to see how those dioceses and parishes that requested APO or were on the fence will proceed. Bless them all.
bpcranmer
Posted: 2007/3/21 23:42  Updated: 2007/3/21 23:42
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/4/14
From: PA
Posts: 154
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH REJECTS PRIMATES ...
I, like many others, see this as a good thing. How now can any person calling themselves 'orthodox' or 'evangelical' or 'remotely interested in the Bible' continue to say "we'll wait until xxx yyy and THEN we'll decide."

"Choose this day whom you will serve ..."
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/3/22 0:09  Updated: 2007/3/22 0:09
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6862
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
No surprises here! After a five-day hiatus while my wife and I took our three granddaughters and their mom to Disneyland, I'm back at it again!

I'm not surprised at any of this, and it looks more and more like the new Anglican province has a better-than-even chance of coming into being. I'm meeting with our vicar tonight and I hope to learn more.

Cennydd
leader1111
Posted: 2007/3/22 0:18  Updated: 2007/3/22 0:18
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/6/19
From: Hobe Sound, Florida
Posts: 237
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
Now that the HOB have told the Anglican Communion to go to hell, who wants to bet that the ABC, and the many other revisionist entities will want to give TEC Associate status so that we can discuss our differences during the coming years. After all excommunication is so final.
lkwells
Posted: 2007/3/22 0:58  Updated: 2007/3/22 0:58
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/2/19
From:
Posts: 607
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
What year is this? These comments make me feel like Rip Van Winkle waking up after a long nap. All the self-proclaimed "reasserters" (who have less and less to reassert) and other neo-Anglicans are at it again, whooping and hollering, bitching, whining, complaining, carrying on like a bunch of stuck pigs. This is how they acted in 1976 after WO and 79 bcp, later after the "consecration" of Barbara Harris, again after the Rightor trial, again and again and again after the outrage du jour, and now over a routine meeting of the HOB. The internet spasm of temporary indignation will last for maybe a month. After watching the ECUSA soap opera since 1976, I have long since lost any respect for the "orthodox" wing of that denomination. The liberal apostates have at least the honesty and integrity of truly believing their horrible theology. Their conservative opponents are a bunch of phoneys. Cennydd: hope you enjoyed Disney World. Sorry you didnt stop by for coffee while you were in the neighborhood.
fastball
Posted: 2007/3/22 1:30  Updated: 2007/3/22 1:30
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/6/29
From: Oklahoma City
Posts: 555
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
"The Episcopal Church House of Bishops...has chosen to walk apart."
-------------------------------------------------

Praise be to God who jealously protects His bride! Thank God TEC made this decision!!!
DavidS
Posted: 2007/3/22 2:10  Updated: 2007/3/22 2:10
Quite a regular
Joined: 2006/6/24
From: Evansville, IN
Posts: 49
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
I wish I could celebrate and be happy about this. However, I fear that all this really means is the end of the Anglican Communion. There is no way that the ABC is going to have the courage to throw TEc out. I sincerely hope I am wrong... but I just don't see it.

I think the ABC has been simply bluffing. Akinola isn't.
Cradle
Posted: 2007/3/22 2:20  Updated: 2007/3/22 2:20
Quite a regular
Joined: 2006/9/10
From: Tx
Posts: 69
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
Texans-----the battle is lost. The Alamo has fallen. Camp Allen is lost. The Episcopal Church
as we knew it and loved it is dead.
We need to gather an Army of Orthodox churches and
reform for a final battle.

REMEMBER THE ALAMO
REMEMBER CAMP ALLEN
PRAY

WE WILL WIN----IT IS GOD'S WILL
gatekeeper
Posted: 2007/3/22 2:32  Updated: 2007/3/22 2:32
Quite a regular
Joined: 2005/5/3
From: Texas
Posts: 59
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
"our Church is marked by encouraging signs of life and hope."

Just so: the fecundity of maggots teeming in a pile of manure.
russedav
Posted: 2007/3/22 2:33  Updated: 2007/3/22 2:34
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/6/8
From: Ft. Wayne, IN
Posts: 289
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
The deranged HOB actions are interestingly similar to what happened especially with the NICE in C.S. Lewis's "That Hideous Strength," the third and last part of his Perelandra Trilogy. I always marvel at the strange delusions of by far the vast majority of professing Christians that puny little man has "free will" (or more properly "free agency") to raise his fist or phallus against the face of God apart from God having hardened his heart to do so as He did to Pharaoh and as Romans 1 describes the power of our sovereign God so many today deny in their own arrogance, conservative or liberal, orthodox or revisionist alike, no less than the HOB did. 1 John 1:8,10 If we say that we have no sin/have not sinned, we deceive ourselves/we make Him a liar, and and the truth is not in us/and His Word is not in us. For the Biblical view of God's sovereignty versus the modern "free will" delusions of the arrogant illiterate (especially Biblically but not limited to it) and worldly the vast majority of professing Christians sadly are (who know almost nothing about embracing the cross), see a search on "free will" at www.desiringGod.org and the many other God-centered considerations there to the precious end of dying to self and living to Christ alone.
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/3/22 3:36  Updated: 2007/3/22 3:36
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6862
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
Don't think even for a MOMENT that the primates are going to receive this rejection from the Episcopal House of Bishops with any degree of favor, because believe me, they won't! The only thing this rejection will do is hasten TEC's departure from the Anglican Communion.

The very IDEA of asking for a meeting with Canterbury and the Primates' Standing Committee at the House of Bishops' expense is an insult of the highest order, as far as I'm concerned, and I hope that the primates see right through this little scheme!

Offering to pay the travel expenses of primates from the poorer provinces in order to do some arm-twisting in TEC's favor is disgusting beyond belief!

I sincerely hope and pray that TEC does break up, and I hope it happens this week, or next week....anytime before September 30th.

Tomorrow would be nice!

Cennydd
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/3/22 3:41  Updated: 2007/3/22 3:41
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6862
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
Lkwells: Sorry, but I don't like coffee. And I can't afford the air fare for six to Disney World, so I took 'em to Disneyland. BTW, I heard some rumblings about a possible CC/Orthodox connection somewhere along the way.

Would be nice!

Cennydd
bradhutt
Posted: 2007/3/22 4:17  Updated: 2007/3/22 4:17
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2004/5/5
From: Washington D.C. Metro Area
Posts: 146
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
The Glass is now empty and become crystal clear. The Churches are empty, their pockets and purses are empty, and the Faithful have vanished . Who do these Episcopal Bishops really represent? Such arrogance. These bishops need to glance over their shoulder and see just who in their flock is still following them. IT IS NOT THE MAJORITY of Episcopalians they falsely claim. The Majority of Laity we know clearly oppose their bishops divisive actions that fail to uphold the Faith delivered and ignore the "Common Good"
chaps
Posted: 2007/3/22 4:45  Updated: 2007/3/22 4:45
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/2/11
From:
Posts: 446
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
TECA is behaving crassly, so please allow me to clarify this dispute with a crass analogy.

The “Anglican” label is a global trademark for an English brand of Christianity known as “Anglicanism” that is sold through the national partners of the “AC.” Under the terms of their partnership agreements, each of the national partners has an exclusive and protected sales territory defined by its national boundaries, is prohibited from selling outside its protected territory, is obligated to diligently promote and sell Anglicanism within its own territory, and is forbidden from selling any competing product.

The American partner, TECA, is manufacturing, promoting, and selling TECism, its own “knock-off” version, under the Anglican label in the United States and to some extent, abroad. This has led to consumer complaints, since TECism lacks the same salvic efficacy of Anglicanism, and it has upset the other national partners, since TECism is giving Anglicanism a bad reputation in their territories.

The national partners have repeatedly reminded TECA of the partnership agreement's terms and warned it to stop manufacturing, promoting, and selling TECism. TECA has responded by trying to persuade the partners in the AC to replace Anglicanism with TECism and has continued its own marketing of TECism, discouraging its local distributors from from selling Anglicanism and persecuting those who persist in doing so. Some of the local distributors who recognize the superiority of Anglicanism have canceled their distribution agreements with TECA and resumed selling Anglicanism, which they obtain through a “gray” market from other national partners in the AC.

At the latest meeting of the AC in Tanzania, the national partners demanded that by September 30, TECA (a) no longer allow extreme TECists to become members of its management team, (b) cease providing an extreme TECist feature, and (c) coordinate with other national partners so that local distributors may obtain Anglicanism directly from them instead of through the “gray” market. Their reasoning was that the “gray” market activity by other partners was a compassionate response to faithful Anglican consumers in a market where TEC was delivering TECism in direct competition against Anglicanism. Upon her return to the United States, KJS, the managing partner of TECA, called for a period of “fasting” in TECA from installing extreme TECists in management and from supplying extreme TECist features while she attempts to persuade the AC to at least allow sales of TECism if it won't replace the Anglican product line with TECism. Local TECism distributors accused her of disloyalty and refused to “fast.” Meanwhile, faithful Anglican consumers bemoaned the AC's failure to demand that TECA obey the partnership agreement — that they cease and desist from manufacturing, promoting, and selling TECism.

Following an off-site meeting at Camp Allen, the TECA partners responded by calling for a high-level conference between the AC and TECA upper management teams to work out a compromise regarding the AC's third demand, legitimizing the Anglican “gray” market, while ignoring the other two demands — at least for the time being. Anglican and TECist consumers worldwide are waiting anxiously for the response of the ABC, the managing partner of the AC, who is known to prefer the TECist product but whose feet are being “held to the fire” by some of the larger AC partners.

Note: A number of years ago, another group of local distributors, now known as the CC, realized that both TECism and the English brand of Anglicanism are phony and made alternative distribution agreements. They are now wondering what the big fuss is about.
Sinner
Posted: 2007/3/22 7:25  Updated: 2007/3/22 7:25
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2004/2/25
From:
Posts: 85
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
What happens next:

The realignment becomes reality.


San Joaquin, Pittsburgh and South Carolina - along with about 10 other diocese - are already arranging special general conventions of their diocese when they will be able to [B]leave ECUSA for good

The Primates will recognise the Network and Duncan as bishop as the new province.

Then the Network sues ECUSA to recover all the assets because the Network is the only Anglican province in the US - and the court reads the constitution of ECUSA and says [b}yes!


And when Archbishop Duncan eventually retires, he consecrates his successor at the National Cathedral.
Rachmnnoff
Posted: 2007/3/22 8:57  Updated: 2007/3/22 8:57
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/3/15
From: Mauna Kea@13796 ft.
Posts: 338
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
Nothing really earth-shattering has happened at Camp Allen - Come on! It was only an affirmation by the revisionist *plurality* that TEC is just one cult among many - this one worshipping the *quintifectal* demiurge of GLBTQ!!! Imagine a five-headed deity representing TEC - It'll probably have the Hindu's scratching their head.



SR
ZachD
Posted: 2007/3/22 9:46  Updated: 2007/3/22 9:46
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
I would not be putting a wager on that one, sinner.



The HOB did take an uncharacteristically decisive move. As I 'click away', I feel quite strongly that they have moved out of their charcteristic blather-blah-blah, BECAUSE they see that the time is right for an aggressive stroke to contrive and establish their own global brand of a church. That is my hunch. They are both brash and childlike. Forgive me for this, but arrogance and independence begets arrogance and independence.

Of course, no consensus statement has come out of the HOB. I am truly amazed that the House could have come up with such a strong statement so soon, upon meeting as a whole group. The plot has thickened. Several responses remain: Those of the ABC, the Primates so-called Standing Committee, the Global South, and of course, the continuing long slow bleed of the faithful - to differing pastures.

I cannot forsee a very interesting result!
angler2
Posted: 2007/3/22 11:00  Updated: 2007/3/22 11:00
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
The Episcopal Church has approximately 870,000 regular attendees in a nation approaching 300,000,000 citizens. Its capacity to form public policy or to influence the shape of American life is zero. Is this church of any further social or religious significance? You do the math!
DnNeal
Posted: 2007/3/22 14:31  Updated: 2007/3/22 14:31
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From: Tennessee
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
SinnerQuote:
What happens next:. The realignment becomes reality.


Now the hard work really begins. How will all the traditionalist Anglican groups find enough common ground on which to develop a sustainable unity?

It can't be done through theological minimalism I don't think or sentiment either. What will it look like?

Neal
FrSam+
Posted: 2007/3/22 15:12  Updated: 2007/3/22 15:12
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
No surprises here.

How anyone can be "surprised" by TEC's rejection of orthodoxy is truly confusing.

Oh, well. Business as usual.
Cennydd
Posted: 2007/3/22 15:22  Updated: 2007/3/22 15:22
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From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
Hey, Unitarian! Very interesting....and also very cognitive! You managed to smack the nail right square on the head!

Cennydd
lionheart
Posted: 2007/3/22 15:31  Updated: 2007/3/22 15:31
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
Sinner wrote,
"Then the Network sues ECUSA to recover all the assets because the Network is the only Anglican province in the US - and the court reads the constitution of ECUSA and says [b}yes!"

If you think the courts are going to agree with any new "orthodox" entity on the property question, I don't think you understand the power of money or the reluctance of courts to decide theological questions. The "orthodox" are sometimes too infatuated with illusions of their own power.

lh
unitarian
Posted: 2007/3/22 15:51  Updated: 2007/3/22 15:51
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From: Bryn Mawr, PA
Posts: 307
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
Chaps, you are brilliant. TEC is a franchise. And as with the KFC in Manhattan, rodents have been photographed in what is supposed to be the squeaky clean kitchen. Customers are staying away. If TEC declares they are no longer franchisees, as they have, then what will be their product? I remember India, Russia, China, etc. trying to come up with new drinks to outsell Coca Cola. Didn't work. Best thing to do is what the Chinese do--steal all the secrets.

But that is EXACTLY what TEC does not want to do. They WANT to reformulate--but New Coke was, how to say? a flop.

A wonderful, illuminating analogy.

Best

Boston Unitarian
deaconM
Posted: 2007/3/22 17:04  Updated: 2007/3/22 17:04
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
Dar es Salaam did not articulate ("dire") consequences tied to the ultimatum. The surprisingly early response (September being half-a-year away) rejecting the African communiqué out of hand doesn’t expedite the Communion’s response, as I’m sure nothing will be done until the stated deadline. It does, however, provide would be fence sitters plenty of time to consider what should be done.

My question is what, actually, will be done?
Leonard
Posted: 2007/3/22 17:22  Updated: 2007/3/22 17:23
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
The Canterbury Castrati are most likely to do nothing, but make a statement calling for more 'listening.'
DavidJacks
Posted: 2007/3/22 17:28  Updated: 2007/3/22 17:28
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
Hey Angler;

Good point! I was thinking basically the same thing. I had heard the attendance was only 780,000 though. I don't know which is true.

What is true, I suppose, is "who cares?" aside from those of us who have some curiosity, morbid or otherwise, about this once great church, now who-knows-what.

However, a little Christian sympathy to those poor souls still trapped within its snares would be in order.

Hey Joe of the Mountain;

I believe I misunderstood you during a previous thread. I did not understand the satirical intent of your suggestion to invite Episcopal Bishops and sodomites over for dinner. Now I do.

DJ
lionheart
Posted: 2007/3/22 20:30  Updated: 2007/3/22 20:31
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
"However, a little Christian sympathy to those poor souls still trapped within its snares would be in order."

Alas, there are no prisoners, only enablers.

lh
Tusker
Posted: 2007/3/22 20:46  Updated: 2007/3/22 20:46
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
Congregationalism: that's what it is for me. This physical church to which I go and have been supporting now going on three generations here in Dallas, is exactly that: a church, a place where I have memories, where I was married, buried family members, and saw, happily, the recent Yankee rector curl his tail and go back to Martha's Vineyard where he belongs. I could care less about ECUSA and and the current New York abominations. I will continue to confront these apostates to their faces and make their lives just as miserable as I can, just as one of theirs made mine for 15 years next door to me. I don't turn the other cheek. Never will. This church here in Dallas is my church where I go to be quiet and commune with God. To hell with the "sermons". I will continue to defend it, the church, where I go to make myself available to God, not its apostates, nor the sycophants, nor the "scientists and businessmen/women" cum laude hiding under yards of cloth pretending to be a bridge between religion and science and "society", and their yards of meaningless "good works". They are dead tinkling brass quasi-men and quasi-women whose heads have been lopped off. They just haven't tried to turn them yet.
mcgod
Posted: 2007/3/22 22:43  Updated: 2007/3/22 22:43
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Posts: 10
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
In Australia our bushfirefighters are very familiar with the practice of fighting fire with fire .

The current fashion of intimidating the orthodox , clergy and laity , with law suits needs effort and prayer to fight back. The gospel “turn the other cheek” description was to me a provocative act , depriving the occupying soldiers of the control by refusing to react predictably. When Jesus confronted the moneychangers in the temple “And so he fashioned a whip of cords and drove them from the temple”

The property disputes being used on the orthodox as a bludgeon ,in my simplistic view may be turned around in lawsuit.
(1) the property in question is owned by the Episcopal Church
(2) The Episcopal Church is defined as the religious organization (corporation or whatever is appropriate definition at law) which subscribes to the Articles of Religion and to the traditions of the church catholic
(3) Statements by HOB and PB demonstrate that they do not subscribe to the Articles of Religion or follow the traditions
(4) Therefore they are NOT the Episcopal Church
(5) Therefore they are not entitled to occupy or be in control of the subject property and funds ,and further are acting fraudulently claiming that they are
(6) Therefore the Courts are asked to Order their eviction forthwith.
And why from the distant land downunder should I be suggesting what you should attempt? Because , unless the TEC matter is resolved in orthodoxy there, the same will happen in Australia.

From all sedition, privy conspiracy,and rebellion; from all false doctrine, heresy and schism, from hardness of heart and contempt of Thy Word and Commandment. Good Lord Deliver Us.
Daboo
Posted: 2007/3/22 23:22  Updated: 2007/3/22 23:22
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
Romans 1:21-22, 24-32 (NIV)

(21) For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
(22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

(24) Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
(25) They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
(26) Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
(27) In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
(28) Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
(29) They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
(30) slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
(31) they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
(32) Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

________________________________________________

We should study this because what is written, couldn't possibly be what was meant.

Let those who have eyes, see, and those who have ears, hear. And those who have legs walk...no, run away from apostasy.



Chris
ahauber
Posted: 2007/3/22 23:46  Updated: 2007/3/22 23:46
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
Unitarian, greetings in Christ.

I wish I could be as positive as you are about these developments, but I don't think that 815 is operating as blindly as we would like to think they are. My guess on their reason for not waiting for the last minute to announce their apostasy is that they want as much time as they can get to sway as much of the communion to their side as possible. Remember that the vote in Tanzania was not strong against TEC and Canterbury is not strongly orthodox these days either.

If TEC can convince CofE and a few others to stay the course and not react to the demands of the Global South, then TEC will claim Anglicanism and avoid the legal difficulties of being conflict with it's own cannons.

On a positive note, these things have been expected, that there would be split in the communion along North and South lines. But 'fear not, thou mighty man of valor,' there will be an Anglican Church in North America whether the Episcopal church is part of it or not.

Andy
leader1111
Posted: 2007/3/23 1:34  Updated: 2007/3/23 1:34
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From: Hobe Sound, Florida
Posts: 237
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
Wow, what a suprise that the "Windsor Bishops" sided with TEC as their future. How could anyone be suprised given that they only had to be sorry for any grief they caused. Thank God they have decided to stay with the other revisionists and not contaminate those leaving the heretics.
We need to get those that want to leave out of this non Christian organization.
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/3/23 1:36  Updated: 2007/3/23 1:36
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
No offense taken, brother. Thanks none the less.

And I mean that seriously

JotM
Daboo
Posted: 2007/3/23 2:23  Updated: 2007/3/23 2:23
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Joined: 2006/8/21
From: Lynnwood, WA
Posts: 76
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
Quote:
We need to get those that want to leave out of this non Christian organization.


Question...what church then do you go to?
patience
Posted: 2007/3/23 13:33  Updated: 2007/3/23 13:33
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
If you came to this news afresh (admittedly something hard for us on VOL to do), how would one not conclude that a group of privileged white guys has decided they don't need to be told what to do by Africans?
ctowles
Posted: 2007/3/23 14:40  Updated: 2007/3/23 14:40
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
"I consider this state of affairs to be deeply tragic. In some ways this feels similar to the choice that was before many American families in the heat of the Civil War. Opposition to slavery and a commitment to national unity on the one hand, and the support of slavery and the right of the confederacy to determine its own governance on the other, split families and friends. The price the United States paid was very high indeed, and the wounds from that war still scar the psychological landscape of our country. As the Communion splits, no one within the Communion will come out of this conflict unscathed."


To pose the questions before the TEC as questions akin to slavery and freedom and this country's civil war is truly sinister and a form of blaspheme. This is at the heart of the problem. The want their life to have meaning, that is why they are in church, and they accept this broken metaphor of homo struggle/slavery struggle as gospel never questioning the original metaphor and whether it is correct. If you say child abuse/sunday school enough the subconscious mind begins to hold the metaphor. This is why we repeat the Creed every Sunday, "one catholic and apostolic church," and why 50 years from now we will look at this rebellion, smile and say "they had their day for awhile" and should be a lesson to us all about accepting metaphors in serious thought rather than in poetry for which they were intended.
sactohye
Posted: 2007/3/23 15:13  Updated: 2007/3/23 15:13
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From: Fresno, CA, Anglican (and only) Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 73
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
Thanks to the HOB's latest slap to the rest of the Communion, the time has now come to choose:

1. To uphold Orthodox Christianity and follow the One True Lord, Jesus, to everlasting life.

2. To uphold heresy and follow the revisionists to everlasting damnation.

My family has chosen #1. In fact, we are going to be moving into the Diocese of San Joaquin within the next 2 months. Please choose wisely.

sactohye
lionheart
Posted: 2007/3/23 15:59  Updated: 2007/3/23 16:03
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Posts: 354
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
Tusker,

No doubt that you have a lot of attachment to your church. Nonetheless, does it kick up its share to the diocese and national church? Is any of that money your money? If so, you are funding the persecution of "orthodox" priests and laity within TEC. See the problem?

Daboo wrote,
"Question...what church then do you go to?"

How 'bout one that actually believes and teaches some traditional version of Christianity? How about one that, if you're a donating member, you don't have to live with the fact that part of your contributions are going to persecute the faith?

lh
quissum
Posted: 2007/3/23 18:05  Updated: 2007/3/23 18:05
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (I John 2:18-20)

My, how God's perspective puts things in true perspective. May our Lord grant His faithful people grace to persevere to the end. It is His blessed promise. Amen
bpcranmer
Posted: 2007/3/23 20:21  Updated: 2007/3/23 20:21
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Joined: 2006/4/14
From: PA
Posts: 154
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
Poster: gatekeeper Posted: 2007/3/21 23:32:42
"our Church is marked by encouraging signs of life and hope." Just so: the fecundity of maggots teeming in a pile of manure.


Now that's about as good a turn of phrase as I have seen in a long time!
Anonymous
Posted: 2007/3/24 1:04  Updated: 2007/3/24 1:04
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
Is it just me or is this insanity? There is a de facto break and a break is a break. Fractured communion is an oxymoron.

Are we witnessing the false teachings of the the false prophet?
unitarian
Posted: 2007/3/24 17:42  Updated: 2007/3/24 17:42
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From: Bryn Mawr, PA
Posts: 307
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES
Dear Andy,

Thanks. I tend to be optimistic, for reasons that are difficult to determine, given the state of things.

Still, whatever happens things are fragmenting. No longer is it clear just which fragment can claim to be "in charge."

And I'm not sure 815 are as clever as we sometimes imagine. They thought they would slip all this through and maybe a few grumpy souls would flounce out, but no more.

Instead they have a real problem. If the component churches split and the primates begin squabbling, then the problem gets worse and any solution becomes even more distant. I don't think that was part of their game plan.

I used to worry a lot about this. And it meant a lot to me to be an Anglican. Now just being an Orthodox Christian is enough--though I agree with you, that creed, in its Anglican form, is going to continue to exist--and I believe to prosper--here in the United States.

Warm regards

Boston Unitarian
orthotox
Posted: 2007/3/24 19:39  Updated: 2007/3/24 19:39
Just popping in
Joined: 2006/6/22
From: Canada
Posts: 7
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
"A wonderful, illuminating analogy." No doubt, Unitarian, and one almost worthy of the Master Parabler Himself. Like unto a bottle of Coca Cola, the New Wine of the Church cannot be imitated or put into the old bottles of corruption! But Africa alone, it seems, now affords the spiritual terroir for this precious red.
Dominic
Posted: 2007/3/26 7:15  Updated: 2007/3/26 7:15
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From: London
Posts: 285
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH HOUSE OF BISHOPS REJECTS PRIMATES�...
Can anyone te'l me why any even vaguely orthodox Christian would want to be part of ECUSA any more? Have you not all run for the hills?
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