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Exclusives : PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Posted by David Virtue on 2007/2/22 5:50:00 (19361 reads)

PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
The Episcopal Church Put on the Defensive. Conform or else. Conservatives Protected

NEWS ANALYSIS

By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
2/22/2007

DAR ES SALAAM --"A new day has dawned," said Rwanda Archbishop Emmanuel Kolini to VOL over breakfast at the White Sands Hotel as he reflected on a newly minted communiqué. "You see, it will come out all right," he said with a huge irrepressible smile.

"But is there discipline in the document," I argued back. "It's there, you have to look for it, but it is there," he said, smiling broadly.

"We came very close to separation," said Southern Cone Archbishop Gregory Venables of this weekend's meeting of global Anglican leaders, "but Biblical doctrine and behavior have been affirmed as the norms in the Anglican Church," he told First Things magazine.

The calm waters of the Indian Ocean stood in dramatic contrast to the turbulent waters 35 Primates waded in, (14 of them new) as they squared off behind closed doors over the American Episcopal Church's inability to conform to the requests of the Windsor Report. The primary issue was the continued flaunting of same sex unions by revisionist dioceses many invoking 'local option'. But a lot more was going on. A lot more.

There was a first draft of the communique but it wasn't tough enough, VOL was privately told. It was back to the drawing boards. A second and final draft was finally accepted only after Archbishops Emmanuel Kolini, (Rwanda) Peter Akinola (Nigeria) Drexel Gomez (West Indies) had demanded a tightening of the language with no loopholes.

This time around the orthodox primates were determined that there would be no fudge, no slip through language like "listening" to the whine of homosexuals. What they asked for, and got, was the precise language of obedience with a time frame - September 30, 2007, almost a year before Lambeth 2008 to conform or else.

Archbishops Akinola, Orombi, Nzimbi had said as much in earlier missives floated through cyber space. Either the Episcopal Church show genuine remorse, (repentance is better than regret) cease same sex blessings or face a reduced status - perhaps associate, or even expulsion, for years of flagrant disobedience to Lambeth resolution 1:10. Archbishop Akinola had gone even further threatening to boycott Lambeth 2008 in Canterbury and holding a parallel Lambeth styled conference with his own CAPA African bishops and archbishops. It was a Damoclean like threat of momentous proportions that hung over the Communion and unnerved even the quiet, steely, Dr. Rowan Williams.

"We got it all" said another Primate to VOL. Dr. Jefferts Schori will have to go back to her bishops and explain herself, and the communiqué, and the invitation to Lambeth will depend on her answer.

Earlier indications in the week seemed to indicate that Dr. Jefferts Schori was getting a pass. The Episcopal Church got a favorable rating in two of three areas regarding the Windsor Report. Secondly Dr. Schori was elected by her colleagues as President of the Standing Committee for the Americas, prompting one observer to note, "Mrs. Schori should have been given the penalty box, instead she was made queen of the palace." The Anglican Consultative Council announced that hermeneutics (the science of interpreting texts) was the latest twist in an effort to prolong the agony of the communion after exhausting "conversation" and "listening" over how each province might interpret the explicit 'thou shalt not' texts regarding sodomy in Scripture.

It looked for all the world like Dr. Schori had finagled her way into the graces of the new unsuspecting primates, schmoozed the already committed liberal Primates like Phillip Aspinall of Australia and Andrew Hutchison of Canada, and successfully reduced the number of primates who would not take Holy Communion from 19 at Dromantine to 7 in Tanzania.

With each passing day the situation looked more hopeless. One man who kept saying otherwise was Martyn Minns the newly consecrated Nigerian bishop to the U.S. who announced at breakfast each morning that everything was going swimmingly. While convincing, many of us had our doubts, we had heard that song before. He was quite ebullient and dogmatic. The news floating out seemed otherwise. He clearly had both the ear of his boss Peter Akinola and an inside track that gave him abundant confidence.

A partial Covenant, quite orthodox, released earlier by West Indies Primate Drexel Gomez, also gave little clue as to what was really going on behind closed doors. Everyone was guessing. Conservative Episcopal bloggers in places like South Carolina and New York were pushing out so much inaccurate information that it was hard to tell conservative spin from speculation - even though most bloggers had few facts to work with.

The press briefings were often delayed because the Primates were continually deadlocked and the media came together later with each passing day. By Saturday night the press was on tenterhooks, speculation was running rife, and on top of it all Internet access had totally collapsed. Everybody was ready to pull their hair out. At 11pm it was announced that the Archbishop of Canterbury would make a personal appearance at the last press briefing in company with Archbishops John Chew (South East Asia), James Ian Ernest (Indian Ocean) and Drexel Gomez (West Indies). Drexel Gomez chaired the discussion of the Communique. We were told it was a unanimous report (hence no minority report). The Archbishop of Canterbury told us that Nigerian Primate Peter Akinola had signed off on it.

A seven-page communiqué was passed around (with a four page indices). Sudden shock hit everyone. The Episcopal Church had been put on notice, with a deadline to conform to the Windsor Report or else. General Convention's 2006, B033 resolution was a fudge; a failure that no one was buying into. Dr. Schori never appeared at any press briefing and was never available to the media the whole time she was there. That should have told us something. Apparently she was not even available to the Episcopal News Service who were forced to decamp with the rest of the media. The press corps immediately went to work on the communiqué minutes before the press briefing began.

And then it hit like a bombshell. The communiqué articulated the following:

* The Episcopal Church had created tensions so deep that it had torn the fabric of the communion, irreparably.

* The Windsor Report did NOT see a "moral equivalence" between the TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada's challenge to the standard of teaching on human sexuality articulated in the 1998 Lambeth resolution 1:10 and cross-boundary intervention.

* The Panel of Reference had proven less than useful in dealing with and addressing situations in the Anglican Communion where orthodox clergy and bishops were under siege by heterodox Bishops and Primates.

* The episcopal ministry of a person living in a same-sex relationship is not acceptable to the majority of the Communion

*A tentative handshake to The Episcopal Church for "taking seriously the recommendations of the Windsor Report", and "gratitude" for the consideration by the 75th General Convention." But that was short lived.

* Resolution 1:10 was raised as the bar below which to go was unacceptable. The Archbishop of Canterbury said there was no theological consensus about same sex unions...."therefore, we as a body cannot support the authorization of such rites."

* Resolution B033 of GC2006 was fudge and "did not give assurances requested by the Windsor Report."

* The TEC had not mended its broken relationships.

* A recognition that interventions, while undesirable, were needed until it became clear that provision had been made for the life of those persons.

* Recognition that a number of Episcopal dioceses and bishops could not accept the primacy of Dr. Schori and requested alternative primatial oversight from the ABC.

* The Episcopal Church had to make the first move to "healing and reconciliation".

The primates demanded three things from The Episcopal Church:

1. An interim response by Sept. 30, 2007 by TEC that it must fully embrace the recommendations of the Windsor Report.

2. For interventions to cease a "robust scheme" of pastoral oversight" must be provided for both individuals and congregations alienated from the TEC.

3. The PB must recognize that people have lost trust in her and she MUST embrace the Windsor Report in order to bring about an end to all interventions.

If this was done it was hope that further interventions would not be necessary. The catch is that the TEC itself would provide the extended episcopal ministry required.

* The appointment of a Primatial Vicar by Dr. Jefferts Schori.

WHAT has emerged from the communiqué and in private talks VOL has had with leaders is that the communiqué is the last line in the sand for The Episcopal Church. The Primates will no longer discuss the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality. It is done. They now want solid and sincere action from The Episcopal Church, not a parsing of words and phrases and half-hearted attempts though words like "regret" or using the canons to steamroll the ABC or orthodox parishes, dioceses, clergy or anyone else.

The first thing to note is that the winners in this communiqué are the Anglican Mission in America (AMIA) and Convocation for Anglicans In North America (CANA). They were affirmed in their ministry just as The Episcopal Church was invited to step back. The strategies of both the AMiA and CANA in starting mission movements were right, and that will not now change. All their bishops will be invited to Lambeth 2008.

If the TEC does not comply with the Windsor Report, Dr. Schori and her revisionist bishops will not be invited to Lambeth 2008.

The TEC will be reduced to "associate" or "observer" status within the Communion, standing on the outside looking in.

It is interesting to note that whenever Dr. Schori introduced herself in Tanzania, she did so by saying she was the Primate of The Episcopal Church and 15 other countries. Frank Griswold never said that. Why did she add this fact? As you will recall at GC2006 the ECUSA changed its name officially to TEC to embrace these other 15 countries.

There is the likelihood then that it will be the TEC not Akinola and the CAPA bishops who will step away, with Schori and her liberal/revisionist bishops now prepared to make the move away from the Anglican Communion and to form their own communion.

Already several revisionist TEC bishops have said that the TEC should go its own way rather than compromise over same sex unions or the unfolding sexualities in the TEC. Will she? Time will tell. The House of Bishops' spring retreat takes place March 16-21, and Dr. Jefferts Schori said that meeting will provide an opportunity to begin to "engage and discuss the possibilities." Nothing she has said to date would indicate how she and they will respond.

MONEY. The Episcopal Church funds a large portion of Lambeth 2008 and represents more than 70% of the budget of the Anglican Consultative Council, to the tune of millions of dollars. If the TEC walks, the ACC will suffer big time. When the TEC was asked last time to step back from certain committees and functions of the ACC, there were cries of outrage from angry homosexuals like Louie Crew and lesbians like Susan Russell breathing fire on the ACC suggesting funding be cut off. But it went nowhere. This time it could. Funding could dry up faster than water in a Tanzanian desert. The "listening" post of Philip Groves could also be affected. Money is still a powerful aphrodisiac that the TEC can use with great energy and resolve. All of Central and South American, Mexico and Brazil provinces are supported by money from TEC, hence their control over them.

LITIGATION. The TEC has been asked to stop all litigation, in particular to cease the litigious activity in the Diocese of Virginia. To date this has not happened. In fact VOL got word, upon returning to the U.S., that David Booth Beers has asserted that there is no question whatsoever regarding the TEC's status as a member in good standing of the Anglican Communion and he would continue to fight in such places as St. James, Elmhurst, Long Island.

PRIMATIAL VICAR. At the final press conference I asked the Archbishop of Canterbury if a Primatial vicar would be able to trump the canons of the TEC, and what authority will this figure have?

The archbishop replied, admitting it was a "slightly complicated concept." He said the Windsor bishops and so forth (meaning the Network bishops) should be given the right to nominate a person who will act in the terms that they recognize as constituting and offering adequate pastoral oversight. To that person the PB will delegate certain power, but that person will be responsible to the council, the Pastoral Council that will be set up, as a means of communications with the Primates as a body. Now operating under the canons and constitutions; that's a difficult one to be clear about, he said. (see full final press conference here: http://tinyurl.com/39wflo

On her way home Dr. Schori wrote three pages of reflections that only obliquely addressed her predicament. She wrote: "Both parties hold positions that can be defended by our appeal to our Anglican sources of authority - Scripture, tradition and reason - but each finds it very difficult to understand and embrace the other." Pittsburgh Bishop and Network moderator Bob Duncan said he was "cautiously optimistic". He and two other American bishops, Bruce McPherson from Western Louisiana and Christopher Epting, the church's ecumenical officer were also present, though still non-committal. "Anglicanism, as represented by the Primates at this meeting, has stood with the faith once delivered," said Duncan. We are in the midst of a reformation, and still have much work ahead for us." The question is will the reformation include the Episcopal Church? But an ultimatum was delivered this week that The Episcopal Church cannot ignore. When she meets with her bishops in March Dr. Schori will find the Network and Windsor bishops in one corner, the Diocese of San Joaquin ready to dump the TEC in another, moderate, middle of the road bishops who want to stay in the Anglican Communion will be in another corner and hard core revisionist bishops ready to tell Dr. Schori that they will defiantly oppose any change in the direction of a church that includes sexual sin of whatever variety. Integrity leaders are already screaming bloody murder about the communiqué and they will have more than a watchful eye on how things turn out. They will not tolerate capitulation, but then neither will Robert Duncan Bishop of Pittsburgh and his Network friends and David Anderson's American Anglican Council.

The final chapter of the Episcopal Church's future in the Anglican Communion is about to be written. The Law of non contradiction means that the Episcopal Church has too say it was wrong. That seems unlikely. The TEC, now dubbed The Emtpy(ing) Church can no longer rely on its money to sustain its hold on people. Dozens of orthodox congregations have walked away from their properties, many are litigating. The parishes might be few, the numbers leaving are huge.

The Episcopal church still has a willingness to engage the communion, but the cost will be heavy if it desires to remain in the Communion.

Despite its money, and its ability to get what it wants through money, the TEC must now face the fact that it is she, not the orthodox Global South who stands in the dock of both public opinion and the Anglican Communion, and she now must answer for her sins, and if she does not repent, she will be found guilty and punished.

END

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Poster Thread
desiderius
Posted: 2007/2/22 15:24  Updated: 2007/2/22 15:27
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2007/1/17
From: Darkest Africa
Posts: 75
 In the SAND, indeed
On paper it looks wonderful, but we know otherwise.

Anglicanism is chronically unable to say "no" to anything. Re-reading the communique one realises that there is no unequivocal statement that points to revealed truth. Despite her apostasy, despite denying the Christ and all TEC's other heresies, not to mention homosexuality, Schori was not called to account and never will be.

If TEC leaves the Dysfunction, as it probably will eventually, it won't be because it is called to account, but because its pride will be wounded if its status is downgraded. Can you imagine Paul or any of the apostles deciding to "downgrade" a church's status if it was teaching and advocating sin and apostasy? You've got to be joking. Either you kick them out or you leave them alone.

If it wasn't for the jurisdictional/legal mess as a result of boundary-crossing, TEC would have continued to get away with its heresy completely unchecked.

Someone who denies that Jesus is the only Lord and Saviour is not a Christian, let alone a minister or bishop. The fact that that issue was allowed to go unquestioned tells you all you need to know.

Primatial vicar? The study groups, committees and various fudge-makers will still be working out the details of that one in 2040.

End to litigation? What a joke! Knowing that its time in the Dysfunction is short, TEC is going to try to grab as much property as it can.

Money? TEC is going to be looking for as many provinces/dioceses it can take with it out of the Dysfunction as possible. Likely candidates? Canada and New Zealand for certain. At least half of Australia and most of Southern Africa (with TEC's native auxillaries, Tutu and Njongo). Rowan had better watch out, too, because the cash-strapped CoE is gonna need those Yankee dollars.
Romans828
Posted: 2007/2/22 15:28  Updated: 2007/2/22 15:28
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/6/27
From:
Posts: 244
 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
If the biggest axe over the head of TEC is that it may have to accept associate or observer status, then it sounds like the revisionists have won.

The only disadvantage for TEC not complying is the emotional-ego issue of how "Anglican" it is. But without a definitive statement from the AC to the contrary, TEC will continue to insist that it's Anglican. And by accepting associate or observer status, TEC will probably be relieved of its financial obligations to support the AC, and can still go on setting up its mini-communion. So TEC has a big financial incentive not to comply.

I reiterate what I said in earlier postings: if there was no majority of Primates to expel TEC last week, why should we think there will be a majority to do so after the House of Bishops fails to comply?
borgy
Posted: 2007/2/22 15:55  Updated: 2007/2/22 15:55
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2005/12/21
From:
Posts: 113
 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Once again, big deal. So the primates came down hard on TEC and the gays. Schori will beg off with a call for more time until the next General Convention 3 years hence. And, just watch, the primates will give it to her.

But far more important here, there was not a word from the primates about heresy in TEC. I guess denying the authority of Scripture and the uniqueness of Jesus Christ as Son of God and Savior is now an "option" for members of the Anglican Communion.
OtisPage
Posted: 2007/2/22 16:13  Updated: 2007/2/22 16:25
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/4
From:
Posts: 667
 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
The orthodox in TEC, those Saints who wish to preserve and honor "the faith once given" must also "draw a line in the sand":

Considering the past deceit, manipulation, sense of power with the Anglican Communion by Griswold (et al), how can any reasonable mature thinking orthodox Saint believe something will really happen to transform TEC?

Remember the carnage of orthodox priests, such as the Connecticut six (ect.).

Shori may act and she may not – given that she may be constrained by the very large body of homosexuals infested, now invested and now controlling TEC.

So what should the orthodox do? Sit back and let the homosexual activists (Shorie, et al) control this without involvement by the orthodox?

It would be naive for the orthodox to not leave during this time period of the next nine months.

If the lawsuits on property are to be relinquished – that is TEC’s action – that doesn’t say such an action is done without prejudice. It is to be seen to be believed in any event. Lawyers salavate for their fees in prosecuting the orthodox who wish to leave with their property.

In any event, if the commitment by TEC to the Anglican Communion is realized – there is the possibility to rejoin TEC.

But TEC’s reputation – and the belligerence of many Bishops cannot be reconciled by a great movement of repentance based on sorrowful confessions.

Why? These Bishops have crossed the line into apostasy – and Hebrews 6:4-6 prevails!!

TEC is loaded with deceit and one will be a fool to believe deceit will not be the continuing tactic.

What has happened here is the Anglican Communion has signaled that TEC will be out in nine months.

That is the true reconciliation – and the orthodox that hold dear the “faith once given” must be prepared to assemble its own system of governance to remain part of the Communion.
DnNeal
Posted: 2007/2/22 16:37  Updated: 2007/2/22 16:39
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/9/26
From: Tennessee
Posts: 1302
 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Quote:
The Episcopal church still has a willingness to engage the communion, but the cost will be heavy. If it desires to remain in the Communion.


What traditionalist will be left in TEC in one year's time? How much more will those who bravely remain have to endure?

Schori and the revisionists are fully convinced of the justice of their position and they will continue to press it in the US and elsewhere. They are convinced they are being unfaithful if they don't. They have proven that they will "take it to" anyone in this country who disagrees.

Will the traditionalist primates calmy sit back waiting politely? Playing nice? For a year?

It is the same old story for at least one more trying year.

Quote:
Despite its money, and its ability to get what it wants through money, the TEC must now face the fact that it is she, not the orthodox Global South who stands in the dock of both public opinion and the Anglican Communion, and she now must answer for her sins, and if she does not repent, she will be found guilty and punished.


The dock of public opinion stands with TEC and what kind of punishment would it be really to be out of the AC? TEC has the money, and public opinion, and influence in 15 countries according to Schori (there's a slap in the face for the primates) and may not understand the problem with shrinking adherents for a while.

Punishment? Please.

And what about the other revisionists in the midst of AC? Does this also apply to them?

Neal
lapittengr
Posted: 2007/2/22 16:38  Updated: 2007/2/22 16:39
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/21
From:
Posts: 195
 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Even if all this optomistic spin of the document is correct,

IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE

Even if PECUSA's attempts to beg off until the HOB & HOD meets at GC are rejected; even if typical PECUSA vacuuous lip-service is called for what it is; even if the September date isn't postponed; even if the Whining Revisionists decide they'd rather just accept a dis-invitation to Lambeth 2008 than keep playing the lip-service game; even if the 38 primates are actually able to come up with some sort of "discipline" they can agree on (or, perhaps, to insist that the ABC put in meaningful discipline); etc etc etc -- even if all this happens

IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE

PECUSA will still push its apostate anti-Christian anti-Scripture anti-Tradition new religion; "traditionalists" will still be marginalized and (if episcopal candidates) denied consent; the seminaries will continue to crank out theologically clueless secular humanists as the new generation of clergy; departing parishes will still have hordes of lawyers descend upon them... so that even if everything 'positive' that might happen in September does happen in September...

IT STILL WON'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE


Those who do not wish to be contaminated by the institution and theology and spiritual poison of PECUSA will be in exactly the same situation then as they are now.

The time to make a stand was 30 years ago, with the Continuing church, which saw this future coming. The time to continue to put off that decision is running out.

You're either in apostate PECUSA or you aren't. And nothing the primates did in Tanzania, or might do in September, makes any difference.


Quote:
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. (Deuteronomy 30:15-20)


pax,
LP
leader1111
Posted: 2007/2/22 16:40  Updated: 2007/2/22 16:40
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/6/19
From: Hobe Sound, Florida
Posts: 233
 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
What a wonderful rosy picture, but the communiqué asks for nothing of substance.

As desiderius and Romans828 clearly point out TEC has only been asked to say that they regret what they did, and to curb their sexual agenda a little bit.
• They don’t have to believe in Christ, or the Resurrection;
• They don’t have to stop ordaining practicing homosexuals or any other sexual perversions (just don’t marry them);
• They don’t have to believe in Sin;
• They don’t have to repent, or excommunicate the many heretics
• They don’t need to stop persecuting traditional parishioners, parishes, priests or dioceses (just quietly exterminate them like the Anglican Church of Canada)
• They don’t have to teach the “receive word”;
• They don’t have to approve the moderate revisionist (ACN/AMiA/South Carolina/etc) or traditional (San Juaquin/Ft. Worth/Quincy) bishops with same when replaced;
• They definitely don’t have to believe in Apostolic Succession (what’s that);
• But most importantly, they don’t have to be, or accept, Christianity!

Sorry, gentlemen but this is not a victory by any definition; but an unrecognized and undiagnosed death by the revisionist cancer spread by TEC/ACC/CoE/NZ etc., and all led by the revisionist ABC telling us comfortable words to make us forget reality. Even if the aforementioned leave we are still stuck with the revisionist ABC. The committees are stacked. The decisions predetermined. The repulsive Anglican Consultative Council sounds so rock solid. Many of the “clueless” in the pews will think that peace reigns on Earth, and will stay with their revisionist priests and bishops because they told us the other Anglicans now understand us.

We should and must be smarter than this.
Marlin
Posted: 2007/2/22 16:48  Updated: 2007/2/22 16:48
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2007/1/9
From: Springfield Ohio
Posts: 38
 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Quote:
Many of the “clueless” in the pews will think that peace reigns on Earth, and will stay with their revisionist priests and bishops because they told us the other Anglicans now understand us.


This is where the major problem lies. There are many who are clueless because they are being told lies or, as in my parish, not told much of any thing at all.

My problem in the future will be trying to ge enough people together to plant a church that followes the true teachings. I know this isn't going to be easy.
dturk
Posted: 2007/2/22 17:23  Updated: 2007/2/22 17:23
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/5/26
From:
Posts: 404
 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
If a line was drawn in the sand, it is not a very deep one. It is about as deep as the commitment to orthodoxy and scriptural primacy, than runs in a majority of those in leadership positions, in The Anglican Communion, the majority, of whom, are more interested in the pomp, power and politics than in preaching the Gospel.

Heresey is heresey. It should not be tolerated in any way, especially among those in positions of Church leadership. Perverted and unrepentant apostates like Bishops Pike, Spong, Righter, et al, should have been rebuked and shown the door years ago. The fact that these clowns were allowed to remain in power and infect the Church with their toxic heresey is one of the main reasons that there is so much moral confusion in both TEC and the Anglican Communion today. This has resulted in a communion that approaches any controversial issue with the thrust of a confused jellyfish.

They have one last chance to stand-up to heresey. If they waffle now, they will lose all credibility.
nmsdesigns
Posted: 2007/2/22 17:23  Updated: 2007/2/22 17:23
Just popping in
Joined: 2005/7/15
From:
Posts: 2
 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
As a 66+ year Anglican (was episcopalian from birth) I am glad in 2003 I made the decision to abandon a sinking ship and joined an AMIA small church. The only thing I would say to those in AMIA, do yourselves a favor and abandon the false Prayer book and Hymnal from 1979 and 1982. They are as bad as the homosexual issue. It is time to get back to the Faith Once Delivered.
HowieG
Posted: 2007/2/22 17:55  Updated: 2007/2/22 17:56
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/1
From: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 231
 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Retorical questions: Assuming that revisionist Bishops refuse to comply with the Primates demands by 9/30, does that mean that they have walked away from the AC? And if that be true, then does that mean that the respective diocese is now vacant? And what then becomes of those parishes that hold true to the Word of God? Will they be absorbed by whom? Spectulation???

I don't expect TEc (Cult) to be wholly intact come fall. What needs to be addressed by the "traditional" Bishops, is Plan B, whether it be the Network or some other mechanism. I don't trust the Vicar approach as that there is too much control by the PB, and I doubt that it would be anywhere ready come 10/1.

<<LITIGATION. The TEC has been asked to stop all litigation, in particular to cease the litigious activity in the Diocese of Virginia. To date this has not happened. In fact VOL got word, upon returning to the U.S., that David Booth Beers has asserted that there is no question whatsoever regarding the TEC's status as a member in good standing of the Anglican Communion and he would continue to fight in such places as St. James, Elmhurst, Illinois.>>

Until the PB puts a leash on Beers, et al, the fruits of TEc (Cult) remains as rotten as before. Also, someone please open the window shades in his office so he can see what the world is doing. He reminds me of a meteorologist giving the weather report before looking outside to check it out first.

H
ZachD
Posted: 2007/2/22 18:23  Updated: 2007/2/22 18:23
Home away from home
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
What needs to be navigated is a morass of filth, and not a new day dawning, I am afraid.

Just what are these broadly smiling ne'er-do-wells talking about? Do they think the TEC will now say, "Gosh, we're sorry?"

Just wait for the pie in the sky smoke to clear from the bongs, before the sights and sounds of civil war is upon us. This is the fruit of decades of tolerance; on "nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more!" "Say no more!" "Say no more!"

I actually have no idea what will happen now! I kinda don't wanna be a part of it!

But many are along for the Ride Of Filth!
patience
Posted: 2007/2/22 18:55  Updated: 2007/2/22 18:55
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Wow! Tough crowd.

A number of these posts seem angry at everything - the revisionists (for obvious reasons), the primates for not making it all right quickly, this article for sounding too optimistic...

The leaders of the Anglican communion have set out a time table for unequivocal action by the TEC. For most here its too little too late. For revisionists they are going berserk over the intolerence of it all. What interesting times when an outcome sees such dispirited postings from all directions.

This lent, may I commend the words of our Lord, "Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world".
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/22 19:01  Updated: 2007/2/22 19:01
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
patience wrote,

"The leaders of the Anglican communion have set out a time table for unequivocal action by the TEC."

So? The only thing that matters in the slightest is to what they have actually committed in the event that TEC fails. I do not see that anyone has committed to doing anything to TEC if it does not comply. There is implication but nothing controlling. Therefore, nothing of consequence actually occured, except disappointment of those who were expecting courage.

lh
leader1111
Posted: 2007/2/22 19:11  Updated: 2007/2/22 19:11
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Marlin
Planting a church is never easy, but it can be so rewarding spiritually, and the good you will do in spreading the word will in many ways mimic the path that Christ took.

Regardless, of numbers that you attract to your new plant NEVER LOSE FAITH. There is nothing more important then what you will do. Remember that Christ’s home churches usually had a small number of parishioners at each location, so do not be discouraged in the beginning.

I have been involved with six new Traditionalist Continuing Church parishes (No WO/No 1979 PB) with varying degrees of success. If you are Broad/High Church then I believe you will be happier with the CC. If you Evangelical (Protestant Anglican) then you may want to look elsewhere such as the AMiA/ACN if your only problem is 2003 and the sexual agenda.
* Taking a whole parish and property is the easiest way to start;
* Next, a core group from a TEC parish leaving the building allows for a group of friends and critical mass to hit the ground running;
* Key levels of support:
- Under 20 parishioners probably will rent, or use sympathetic supporter’s facilities, until larger. The most difficult time.
- Between 20 – 40 parishioners will concentrate on their building fund and have a modest budget
- Over 40 you start to grow more quickly as people now see “success”, so time to plan buying a modest church.

If a large group of parishioners are not leaving one church where everything is familiar, then you will have to be flexible with your liturgy. Broad church is common, or with a little High church elements. High church members tend to be in larger cities. Broad in smaller cities or rural areas.

Involve others as much as possible. It is vital. Have a new visitor package available from day one for new people and give it to them before the service starts (they will explain your beliefs), and the larger group you are affiliated with to add substance to their joining. Ask the new parishioners if they need anyone to guide them through the order of service. Even if you have no children in your initial attendance have a designated person who will have an immediate Sunday school class if families enter. Ask any parents with small children if their children would like some refreshments and a Sunday school. Have it ready. The parents love the break to enjoy the service, and they want something for the children, or they will never return. You must be prepared from day one, and a Grandmother type for the children wins hearts for Christ.

Advertise, advertise, advertise as much as you can afford, storefront signs are good, submit articles to the local paper and do as many mall bake sales as possible with a big banner.

Others will join you from lapsed RC’s, lapsed Episcopalians and persecuted TEC churches within 10 miles, and a few from a 20-40 mile radius.

Contact one of the major Continuing Churches, to see if they have others in the area who have expressed an interest. Often there are. Personally, I have been involved with the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC) in the US, Canada, and worldwide, and the Anglican Catholic Church (ACC) in the US (depending on which was in the area), and am familiar with the APCK and APA. TAC is by far the largest worldwide. I definitely have my favorite, but if one already exists nearby support it. I personally would not join the multitude of small Continuing Churches for various reasons. Do your research. Some are good but some are just not for me. Often, the larger CC churches may also have a retired traditionalist priest who would be willing to get you started since they say the daily offices in their homes every day, if your TEC priest isn’t leaving with you.

This is not exhaustive, but email me if I can be of further service.
FrSam+
Posted: 2007/2/22 19:56  Updated: 2007/2/22 20:25
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
"PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND.........again."

Who wants to bet, right now, that this will NOT be the final "line in the sand"????

Who wants to be bet that after September 30, 2007 there will be yet another date to consider the response that will be submitted by TEC before or on that date?

The lines in the sand are starting to look like lines on a ruler now. We've all heard "okay, this is really it. We really mean it now! We've made up our mind and spoken. We really are serious this time."

Only time will tell but it seems like Gary, David, and several others had to work awful hard to finally make Tanzania a good thing. I trust these men and respect them, but I have an uneasy feeling that a hurricane has been made of a spring shower.

But....time will tell.

For their sakes and for the few hopeful left in TEC I hope that this report is right. After all that they have endured (albeit unnecessarily in my opinion for they did not have to stay) they deserve a victory.
deaconM
Posted: 2007/2/22 20:44  Updated: 2007/2/22 20:44
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
(re-post, was nixed earlier)
What a long 10-days! I have fretted over the
tidbits that eked out and the many posts here and
have arrived at the same place that Gary
describes (I have seen ++Kolini grin that way
before). Having finally garnered a modicum of
peace, I was greatly blessed by this morning’s
psalm:


Fret not yourself because of evildoers; be not
envious of wrongdoers!
For they will soon fade like the grass
and wither like the green herb.

He will bring forth your righteousness as the
light, and your justice as the noonday.
Be still before the LORD and wait patiently for
him; fret not yourself over the one who prospers
in his way, over the man who carries out evil
devices!

Refrain from anger, and forsake wrath! Fret not
yourself; it tends only to evil.
For the evildoers shall be cut off,
but those who wait for the LORD shall
inherit the land.


The wicked borrows but does not pay back, but the
righteous is generous and gives;
for those blessed by the LORD shall inherit the
land, but those cursed by him shall be cut off.


A first post is always awkward… so let me say by
way of introduction that I have been a silent
participant in this site for several years and
speak now to thank you for the record of your
struggles that have been so informative to me.
As for my biases: I had fidelity with the First
Promisers and departed ECUSA as soon as possible
after GC2000.


Blessings,
+/M
deaconM
Posted: 2007/2/22 22:18  Updated: 2007/2/22 22:18
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
"The first thing to note is that the winners in this communiqué are the Anglican Mission in America (AMIA) and Convocation for Anglicans In North America (CANA). They were affirmed in their ministry just as The Episcopal Church was invited to step back. The strategies of both the AMiA and CANA in starting mission movements were right, and that will not now change. All their bishops will be invited to Lambeth 2008."


The best part of being “out” is focusing on who we are rather than trying to articulate who we aren’t (like we did for soooo many years). We have been so busy making disciples and planting churches that there has not been much time for bothering about TEC. I knew I had arrived when someone was complaining about the choice of PB and I was able to respond “ECUSA had a GC this year?!


Come on in. The waters fine.
+/M
Marlin
Posted: 2007/2/22 22:40  Updated: 2007/2/22 22:40
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Leader1111

I pm'd you with a response.
DavidJacks
Posted: 2007/2/22 22:55  Updated: 2007/2/22 22:55
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Neal is most likely absolutely correct. Political Correctness is generaly with this TEC outfit. Inasmuch as it has plenty of money it does not need the Anglican Communion. It's apostasy is not so regarded by the secular world; and indeed the TEC, as it is no longer Christian but secular itself, will just carry on as it has been; indeed the pace may even accelerate.

The jokes in the satire section of this site aren't so farfetched after all.

It seems as though most posters on this thread are of a mind which understands what is going on.

DJ
Climacus
Posted: 2007/2/22 23:56  Updated: 2007/2/22 23:56
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 Separation is the only option
Friends,

The ordination of non-celibate gay bishops is just the tip of the iceberg. If the Primates had a difficult time deciding to bring the TEC to task on that issue, there can be no reasonable hope that it will ever discipline the TEC for undermining the authority of Scripture, or for failing to uphold even the most basic tenets of the Christian faith. Separation is the only option left open for orthodox Anglican believers. Please see my post on the subject at:

http://www.traininginchristianity.blogspot.com/

Cheers,
Climacus Redivius
justlookin
Posted: 2007/2/23 3:00  Updated: 2007/2/23 3:14
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 An expected defeat, not a disaster
The primates' meeting was a defeat. Not a disaster (as the first communiques would lead us to think), but certainly a defeat.

And we could have expected it, because this defeat was the likeliest outcome. Not only because Williams controlled the agenda of the meeting, but also because the orthodox primates had only 7 or 8 reliable votes: Nigeria, Uganda, Rwanda, Kenya, Tanzania, Southern Cone, South-East Asia, perhaps Central Africa. The fact that these provinces include most of the actual membership does not translate into voting power. So the orthodox primates were sure to be outvoted. The only hope of success would have been for them to refuse to sit down at the table with the Octopus woman and the most egregiously infidel primates (e.g., Hutchinson of Canada), and threaten to walk away from the meeting and the Communion, taking with them two thirds of the membership, unless a truly Christian agenda was discussed and approved.

This is what I hoped beyond hope, but I knew it was very unlikely that the orthodox primates would take such an extreme stand. Mtetemela was constrained by his duties as host, others by their habits of politeness, of respect for the see of Canterbury, or by the natural hesitation to take such a step. Even Akinola, surely the boldest, ended up sitting down and discussing, instead of walking away.

In the event, the orthodox primates were actually bolder and more tenacious than one had the right to expect. In spite of being outvoted, mobbed and fast-talked by the revisionist majority, they stood firm. They demanded that TEC be declared non-compliant with Windsor (in spite of the ridiculous conclusions of the advisory panel) and be given a time limit for full compliance. They demanded that a parallel primatial structure be created in the US. They refused to admit that their annexation of former TEC parishes had been wrong, refused to give them up, demanded that TEC stop the lawsuits against them. One can imagine the pressure that was exerted on them when they refused to sign the final communique and held up the meeting. It is a tribute to their clout and their staying power that they obtained most of what they demanded, in spite of having a small minority of the votes.

So then, why was the result a defeat?
(1) Because the parallel primatial structure for the US orthodox dioceses and parishes is stillborn. With a control panel composed by four revisionists and one orthodox, with only the powers graciously delegated by Ms.Octopus, it is going to be another DEPO. And we know how well THAT worked.
(2) Because there are no means of enforcing the sanctions on TEC, and no willingness either. When September comes and TEC offers a token compliance or no compliance at all, the ABC is going to sit still and do nothing.
(3) Because the primates sat with Ms.Octopus and recognized her, a pagan priestess, as their peer. Because most of them took sacrilegious communion with her. Because the Anglican Communion is still headed by a semi-pagan revisionist, and Akinola and Co. are still members of it. Because the Anglican fudge has not been strained into its separate components, the orthodox on one side and the revisionists on the other; it is still standing and still fudgy.

But seriously, what else could we expect? That this primates' meeting would dissolve the Anglican Communion and create a new orthodox Christian communion in its place? Hardly. Those who speak of a missed occasion should realize how improbable it was to obtain more than what was obtained. Another deadline. Another set of demands on TEC, with somewhat clearer language. Another DEPO. Agreed, they will turn out as useless as the previous deadlines, the previous demands, the previous DEPO. But what else could a meeting of primates, many of which are revisionists, accomplish?

The Anglican Communion is certainly not going to declare its own dissolution, or to facilitate the creation of its own replacement. It is up to member provinces, member dioceses, member parishes, member individuals to have the courage to leave the Anglican Communion, and the patience to build another communion piece by piece. The assembled primates won't do it for you. Consider also that the higher the level the more difficult the operation is. It is relatively easy for an individual to leave a church and join or found another. It is more difficult for a parish to do so. Even more difficult for a whole diocese; my compliments to San Joaquin if it can pull it off. Very hard for a whole province; maybe a confident province like Nigeria with a bold leader like Akinola can do it, but I'll believe it when I see it.

So, Anglicans who are still there, start moving. If you wait, nothing significant will happen between now and September, and nothing significant will happen in September either. They only events that will happen are those that you will make happen.
FormerEC
Posted: 2007/2/23 11:11  Updated: 2007/2/23 11:11
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
David and Gary and all other optimists:

I think you can see from all the comments that almost no one is buying this. How many more times can you say, "This is it...this is REALLY IT!" Why is it so important to remain in an apostate church? Why is it so important to "win?" You're not going to win. It's over. Turn out the lights. Find a Biblically-based church.
deaconM
Posted: 2007/2/23 12:06  Updated: 2007/2/23 12:06
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
KJS on the object of our devotion: “We’re entering Lent and there’s probably not a better time for us to receive this communiqué …This is a season to remember who is the focus of our faith and it is not we, ourselves.”

And earlier: “God became human in order that we may become divine.”

This self worship is logically at the root of “passions” symptomatic of the state of Christianity in America. The lectionary seems to daily oppose everything out of the mouth of the rulers of this world.

This mornings NT: For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age. (Titus 2)
Chris2
Posted: 2007/2/23 12:11  Updated: 2007/2/23 12:11
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
You are known by the friends you keep.

If you are still in TEC, and making "orthodox" noises, then all you are doing is lending some credibility to the apostasy.

The rich young man stayed to bury his father. Peter left his boat _immediately_.

Only you can choose this day.
deaconM
Posted: 2007/2/23 12:21  Updated: 2007/2/23 12:22
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
One of my favorite maxims is: “No one is completely useless…one can always serve as a bad example.”


I don’t want to set myself up for lampooning, but I do have an honest question.
I slipped a little this morning and began to wonder if there was anything good contained in TEC’s perspective on social justice. Clearly compassion is a Christian virtue. Then I encountered a verse instructing slaves to be submissive and pleasing to their masters (Titus 2:9). No question but that slavery is unjust, but the Word makes no effort to speak to that social injustice at all, but only to the heart condition of the believer. (again, please show me some grace here.) What does TEC claim as their basis for their perspective on social justice?

Thanks
+/M
gregory
Posted: 2007/2/23 12:40  Updated: 2007/2/27 18:01
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From: Nflorida
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 Re: DRAW LINE THROUGH THE CHEESE
Hey we been fooled again and again...
It ain't fudge it's swiss cheese;
TEc has been cutting the cheese for too long.
boggy
Posted: 2007/2/23 12:43  Updated: 2007/2/23 12:43
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Dr. Schori wrote three pages of reflections that only obliquely addressed her predicament. She wrote: "Both parties hold positions that can be defended by our appeal to our Anglican sources of authority - Scripture, tradition and reason.

Wrong.
Chris2
Posted: 2007/2/23 13:11  Updated: 2007/2/23 13:11
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
deaconM,
What is social justice, anyway? Is it a new improved kind of justice? How is it any different or better than just plain ordinary justice?

Just wondering:)
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/23 13:30  Updated: 2007/2/23 13:35
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Marlin wrote:

"You can't effect changes if you run from the front lines. They are doing more than just complaining here, they are taking some kind of action to try and effect a change from within."

This is an old canard that lingerers use to justify their lack of will and sentimental attachment to TEC and the Anglican Communion, "we are fighting the good fight from within". The problem, as chaps observed above, is that it is unChristian to fight evil from within an evil communion. Once the leadership has abandoned the faith you have no moral or honorable choice other than to depart. Otherwise you enable evil.

Unless you have lost all connection with reality, you must know that TEC is lost, utterly. Those in charge have adopted a rival religion and show every sign of aggressively pursuing it and no sign whatsoever of doubt, let alone repentance. Moreover, the revisionists aren't just in marginal control, they're in firm control. The gates of hell have decisively prevailed against TEC.

You're attempting to invade, or refusing to leave, hell in order to convert the demons. Christ Himself might be able to do that but since you have no Christian mandate to do so, and since the likely result is that you will, ever so slowly, be converted to revisionism, you are not doing good but are recklessly tempting the Lord.

lh

PS: For the sake of your own souls and that of your children, please take this to heart. You can't save anybody if you're on the sinking ship. The ship's going down. Nothing can stop it. The only sensible way to proceed is to find a lifeboat and help others aboard. The lifeboat is not TEC, it's done.
Dominic
Posted: 2007/2/23 13:50  Updated: 2007/2/23 13:50
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
It has been asked: "What is social justice, anyway? Is it a new improved kind of justice? How is it any different or better than just plain ordinary justice?"

The ONLY justice worth having is God's Justice. The rest come from the hearts of men and result in the garbage produced by all those who do not hold to Scripture as the innerrant Word of God, as well as leading people gaily down the road to hell.
FatherR
Posted: 2007/2/23 14:01  Updated: 2007/2/23 14:01
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
As far as I can tell this will only lead TEC further down the road of apostacy. Nothing at all has been addressed to the absolute heresy coming from the mouth of the PB. We can comply on the sexuality issues all we want but we are still far far down the road to becoming nothing more than a liturgical Unitarian-Universalist Church. And at the present moment I am seriously considering my options outside ECUSA.

"As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord," and not Mrs. Schori and her heresy.
gregory
Posted: 2007/2/23 14:08  Updated: 2007/2/23 14:47
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Dominic, Good post.

Please read the following link first presented by my brother Joe;

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2001/365/

humbly, gregory

HEY Chris2, Read the above link.
ejsteele
Posted: 2007/2/23 14:08  Updated: 2007/2/23 14:08
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
For those who have asked: social justice is the term used for applying Scriptural theology to dealing with issues in society; it is not a bad thing, IF properly conducted.

For example the reforms that took place in the 1800's regarding slavery, child labor, and such; or the current care being called for in Africa for victims of AIDS, and poverty worldwide. Many of the documents of Vatican II (for the RCC) appealed to social justice worldwide.

The sad part is that many, particulary here in the U.S., twist Scripture to justify agendas that are not theologically sound.

+Ed
Chris2
Posted: 2007/2/23 14:27  Updated: 2007/2/23 14:27
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
bp_steele wrote:
"social justice is the term used for applying Scriptural theology to dealing with issues in society".

That would be basic Christian missions.

I really was asking the question rhetorically, because I think it is important to differentiate between your definition, bp_steele, and the colloquial sense of the term, which I believe is more like "applying gut-wrenching issues as motivation to political activism" if I may dramatize slightly. I would submit that political activism has no place in the Church. Your definition is a restating of basic Christian mission, which we definitely should be doing as a Church. The political version, we have no business with. It's all part of the prevailing mental fog.
Anonymous
Posted: 2007/2/23 15:24  Updated: 2007/2/23 15:24
 Re: DRAW LINE THROUGH THE CHEESE
Great graphic, Gregory. Do you have a hi-res version? Could you email it to me?!
bpcranmer
Posted: 2007/2/23 16:04  Updated: 2007/3/22 0:07
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
The problem is being treated as if it were politics and realignment. Instead, it's about truth and falsehood. In my judgment, the time of realignment and political sophistication is over. It's time for reformation and simple purity.

Cranmer, Latimer, and Ridley died for this mess??

See my essay on Realignment or Reformation at www.bishopcranmer.com
gregory
Posted: 2007/2/23 17:37  Updated: 2007/2/23 17:37
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 Re: DRAW LINE THROUGH THE CHEESE
joeames, done check your PM inbox.

gregory
warmac9999
Posted: 2007/2/23 19:03  Updated: 2007/2/23 19:03
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
There is a rather familiar story about the wise man building his house upon the rock and a foolish one building his upon the sand. A line in stone is clearly more significant than a line in the sand. If the primates truly wished to be clear, then the line in stone would be do this or leave, and it would be stated in the open not in some back door conversations.

The laity will either solve this problem or the Episcopal church, along with the churches of Canada and the UK, will disappear in a few short decades.
warmac9999
Posted: 2007/2/23 19:08  Updated: 2007/2/23 19:10
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
You have to recognize, by-steele, that the very words "social justice" no longer mean what they once did. They are but a mask for a very destructive secular socialist and immoral agenda driven by a group that would slaughter Christianity and anything even resembling Christianity without a single thought.

The revisionists are at war with Christians, and they will take Christian terrority in much the same way that Hitler, Tojo, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and others have take it - by persuasion and then force. Listening didn't work, if you recall, so we now see recourse to the law. Any bets that the homosexual community won't deliberately disrupt the prayer services of the orthodox? or take property by force and subterfuge (Bishop Smith comes to mind). War is hell, and rightfully so.
Truthseekr
Posted: 2007/2/23 20:46  Updated: 2007/2/23 20:54
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
DeaconM,

How about showing a bit of mercy,
To a dude that has been fighting a cough
For nearly a couple of weeks.

Your id picture,
The one with the hand,
Choosing to take the "red" pill...
Had me laughing so hard I nearly passed out!
I just don't know if too many of the people posting here know the background of that picture, the choice being made...

Your subtle comparison of ecusa,
To the villainous role in that movie,
To the evil, that keeps people living in a dream world, from birth to death,
Is so insightful,
That the hairs on the back of my neck are still standing up...

Thx for the laughs
Truthseekr
Theophilos
Posted: 2007/2/23 21:27  Updated: 2007/2/23 21:46
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
My dears anglo catholic folks this is a Protestant Denomination, and this is the way that we deal with problems in a Protestant Church, who want be catholic or Orthodox should leave, it never will change. I have thought about what happen in Tanzania and I agree with David, the things are not so bad for the "Conservatives Anglicans"(not those who act like Romanists), We Anglicans conservatives must fight to have our DENOMINATION back in the West, The liberals revisionists have the control of almost all the others Great Protestants traditions in the west and are taken together those from the Global South, but the Anglican and Baptist traditions are the only two where the conservatives have some control.And this fight will be very hard, but I am sure that we will win. Look at the reaction of the liberals revisionists, they are furious, some liberals are saying that they prefer schism. If Akinola put his name at that communique, is because it is the last chance for the revisionists from TEC, Canada, England etc. The smile of Mrs Schori after the meeting was a smile from who had had hard time there. They will now have to tolerate the conservatives, the conservatives will need to use this opportunity to gain ground within our DENOMINATION. They will need to sign the COVENANT if they want to be part of the Communion and I am sure that IT will be very traditional, and the good Protestant 31 Articles of Faith and the Glorious 1662 BCP will be part of IT, what means that the night mare of liberals will become true " the ANGLICAN COMMUNION will become a CONFESSIONAL PROTESTANT DENOMINATION"
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/23 22:31  Updated: 2007/2/23 22:31
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Theophilos,

In a sense, I agree with you. At this point, all the Anglo-Catholics of principle have left TEC for the Continuum. All that is left, for the most part, is revisionists and protestants who have compromised their beliefs.

". . . but the Anglican and Baptist traditions are the only two where the conservatives have some control."

Well, that's true of the Baptists. There is the Southern Baptist Convention for which I have considerable respect. There is also a Cooperative Baptist Fellowship in league with the revisionists. There is a separate church, the Reformed Episcopal Church, where conservatives have control. They have absolutley none in TEC.

As to the rest of your post thinking that Dar es-Salaam was not so bad, I will repost something below that I posted in Viewpoints.

lh
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/23 22:34  Updated: 2007/2/23 22:34
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Reposted from another article:

It is difficult to convince people of something that they have a strong emotional interest in disbelieving. Put yourself in the position of the revisionists of TEC for a moment. They have the money and power in TEC. They have a cautious ally in the AB of C. They are firmly commited to their new religion and have firmly rejected the old religion. They are projecting TEC as its own Communion with a presence in a number (15?) of countries. Their presiding "bishop" has been appointed to a prestigious post in the AC at the Dar es-Salaam meeting. If you believed as they did, and were committed, what would you be thinking?

I would be thinking that I have all the cards. I would be thinking that regardless of what the Primates do or don't do at any given time in the future that it doesn't really matter because my TEC can exist on its own, probably in communion with Canterbury but not with some number of GS primates. I would be thinking that for the sake of PR, it would be good if we looked like the victim and forced them to oust us. I would be thinking that the longer we can string out the process so that the dissenters (read the "orthodox" et al.) stay in, kicking up the ladder to their diocese and the national church, the better.

The GS primates have absolutely no power whatsoever to make TEC to do anything. All hope that they will repent or be cowed is in vain. That's not the kind of people you're dealing with. When it comes to physical courage, they're probably not a very alpha bunch. But they have groupthink, they have the money and they have their passions. These all reinforce themselves and make them blind and deaf to decency.

lh
swift
Posted: 2007/2/23 23:12  Updated: 2007/2/23 23:12
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
What the communique is about is simply to make it clear who is leaving whom.

In a game of chess, this might amount to "check." It remains to be seen whether this "check" will become a "checkmate" or whether, if TEC refuses to relent, it will be more akin to a stalemate.
ptay12
Posted: 2007/2/23 23:42  Updated: 2007/2/23 23:42
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Dr. Jefferts Schori was elected by the Archbishops of Central and South
America to head the Standing Ctte for the Americas. It had nothing to do
with Rowan Williams personally.

David Virtue, D.D.
deaconM
Posted: 2007/2/24 1:09  Updated: 2007/2/24 1:09
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Truthsekr,
Gratifying to know somebody got it. Thanks for the post.

There is more than one sermon in the Matrix!

+/M
FatherR
Posted: 2007/2/24 1:16  Updated: 2007/2/24 1:16
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From: Wisconsin
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
This entire situation brings to light the one fatal flaw of Anglicanism. There is not now nor has there ever been any one with the authority to discipline either an unruly bishop nor an unruly province. The best anyone can do is refuse to partake of the Eucharist with them. And unfortunately we in the Continuing Anglican CHurches are blest with the same fatal flaw which 20 or 30 years from now could result in the meltdown of the Continuing Churches. The most tragic thing about the whole situation is that it is the faithful who must pay the price for a Church that refuses to discipline itself. And as someone has said a church that cannot discipline itself is no church at all. We need only look at the fact that Mrs. Schori is on the Primates Standing Committee. That in itself speaks volumes.
lapittengr
Posted: 2007/2/24 1:41  Updated: 2007/2/24 1:41
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Quote:
And unfortunately we in the Continuing Anglican CHurches are blest with the same fatal flaw


Is this really the case?

The chief flaw of the C.C. movement, at the moment, is its factionalization. Thankfully this is a far lesser flaw than the many flaws of PECUSA and (IMHO) the excessive protestantism of the AMiA &c.

But as the C.C. pulls itself together, in the U.S., it will continue to be a jurisdiction which provides for internal discipline, as the strong jurisdictions have done. At least in the APCK, "unruly bishops" have usually been shown the door.

It's only when the C.C. -- perhaps building off the TAC's loose confederation -- becomes vibrantly international (a matter of decades not years presumably) that this issue will come up for them.

And, I expect, at that point, seeing the salutory lessons of the faltering A.C., there will be discipline -- under universal theological and canonical guidelines -- vested in a council of bishops.

That is, after all, truly catholic.

pax,
LP
gregory
Posted: 2007/2/24 11:09  Updated: 2007/2/24 14:02
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
My "dears"est Theophilos, you say;


"My dears anglo catholic folks this is a Protestant Denomination, and this is the way that we deal with problems in a Protestant Church, who want be catholic or Orthodox should leave, it never will change."
Your statement is spoken just like a revisionist and almost word for word.

i tried to stand the gap between "anglo-catholic" using 1928 Prayer Book and "protestant" using 1979 altertive book but once the 1928 crowd left the Nflorida Diocese and the revisionists took control then the evangelical crowd (1662, 1928, 1979 books) left the Nflorida Diocese then now all that is left are the "protestants" that are more "protestant" than the anglo-catholic and evangelical folks that left.

So your statement; "...who want be catholic or Orthodox should leave" is really hard to understand... ???
Especially on a site that is "catholic" as in whole and universal or as in Orthodox as is stated in this site's name;



Anyhow i hope we can identify the revisionist and can identify those who are with God whether one calls them traditional, conservative, reformed, catholic, orthodox etc...

humbly, gregory
angler2
Posted: 2007/2/24 11:30  Updated: 2007/2/24 11:33
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
David,

Whether or not the election of Schiori was independent of Rowan Williams is not important. She now, in your own words, heads the Standing Committee for the Americas [North, Central and South]. This gives me neither comfort nor confidence as we look to how this will play out. Also, it tells me that the matter of women in the episcopate is becoming settled doctrine in much of the Communion. Only a handful of archbishops refused to take communion with her. What was a radical innovation a few years ago is being quietly integrated into the life of the Anglican Communion. No matter how she got there, Schiori's presence at the table is the greatest sign of the meltdown of traditional Anglican faith and practice.
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/24 19:10  Updated: 2007/2/24 19:10
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
See, I told you.

Now, let's do the math. Is TEC going to repent? No. I hope we can all agree on that. So, to those of you still in TEC, the only question is when will you leave, not if (assuming that you're believing Christians of some sort). There are AMiA parishes here. They are still in communion with Canterbury but not TEC (I suppose anyway, however that works). So, if there's one around you, you could go there. Also, it's possible that this entire parish or that entire diocese might break away. Again, there's no rational reason to wait. TEC isn't going to reform. That's the only real variable. Those waiting for September will probably wait for Lambeth and beyond.

It just isn't rational to stay in any longer. If your church isn't leaving now, it's time to leave your church.

lh
chaps
Posted: 2007/2/24 19:30  Updated: 2007/2/24 19:30
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
lionheart wrote:
"If your church isn't leaving now, it's time to leave your church."

That's the bottom line. Being faithful to Christ requires taking action intead of continuing to sit there like a bump on a log.

Blessings,

chaps
MicroCar
Posted: 2007/2/24 20:44  Updated: 2007/2/24 20:44
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
deaconM:

You don't get it mate. Your Primate is still in institutional relationship with the heretics and apostates via the Anglican Communion as the hesitant dance the previous weekend revealed once again.

Therefore you are. Okay, so you can thumb your nose at the local TEC Bishop. Big deal. Your are still in the same communion, fellowship, association and structure as before Dar El Salaam. ++Kolini has seen to it. He and the Primates could have shunned but did not the preachers of other Gods. So he is part of the continuing problem, as are you.
Jump from the AMIA to a none compromised fellowship where the water is not tainted still and non TEC prayer books are permitted.

Micro+
deaconM
Posted: 2007/2/24 21:26  Updated: 2007/2/24 21:26
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
MicroCar,
Your position is very clear, I get it.

May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always!
+/M
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/24 21:45  Updated: 2007/2/24 21:51
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
To all,

I'm willing to make a prediction about how this is going to turn out. TEC's House of Bishops will issue some kind of waffling statement which will be acceptable to some, but not all, of the rest of the Communion. Subsequently, several GS primates will call for TEC not to be invited to Lambeth. That's when it gets tricky. How many GS primates will actually go to the mat? I'd say few more than the seven who refused communion at Dar es-Salaam. Churches like the CofE, Ireland, Scotland, Canada etc. will, regardless of anything else, remain in communion with TEC. There may be some two tiered system eventually set up, but it will be meaningless. There will be no insistence that full members forsake communion with associates. The waters will be muddy as ever, and the struggle will continue indefinitely.

The only alternative I see to this is if some of the GS primates are brave enough to set up a rival, mutually exclusive, Anglican Communion centered in the GS (Alexandria?) which is not in communion with Canterbury. That's possible, but unlikely. I might have put money on that before Dar es-Salaam, but not now.

Consequently, as a practical matter, you'll have the same situation in this country as is the case now. There will be churches which wish to leave TEC and join some entity in "full Anglican Communion membership". The property battles will continue. The handwringing over "one last chance" and "hope on the horizon" will continue as well. That's the safest prediction of all. This is not how the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church operates.

lh
patience
Posted: 2007/2/25 1:15  Updated: 2007/2/25 1:16
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
"Get out now" seems to be a popular refrain for several posters here.

No person, no community, no church is beyond redemption if it genuinely repents. Christ hold's this out to us even to the last. What an awesome fact that is.

So although many here are happy to predict TEC will do nothing, and its all hopeless, I say perhaps its time to take a break from the internet. Yes, the facts up to now are not encouraging, but in matters spiritual a number here seem to be highly confident the battle has been lost. God has the final word, and I'm confident none of us has a full grasp of his plans in this.
chaps
Posted: 2007/2/25 2:05  Updated: 2007/2/25 2:05
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
patience wrote:
"God has the final word, and I'm confident none of us has a full grasp of his plans in this."

Yes, "God has the final word" and He instructs us: "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds" (2 Jn 10-11). Thus, by disobeying His instruction, you are as guilty as the heretics.

By urging us to be patient where Scripture specifies ostracism, you are "second-guessing" God--trying to overrule Scripture with human reason--the basis of revisionism, which is the same approach as that of TEc's secular humanists. Please at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that you don't believe in the authority of Scripture.

Blessings,

chaps
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/25 9:43  Updated: 2007/2/25 9:52
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
patience,

Don't take this as an attack because it's not meant that way. I think you're confusing two different things. First, forgiveness is always available conditioned on repentance. So yes indeed it is possible for some or all of those in TEC to repent. May God lead them to it. On the other hand though, once it becomes clear that they have left the faith or fallen into serious heresy, it is incumbent upon the faithful to separate themselves, just as chaps wrote above. While it is possible that TEC as a whole will repent, this is highly unlikely. Even if at some time in the future it did repent, that does not change the facts as they have materialized over the last years and decades. You could return if TEC truly repented.

To leave is a good thing for everyone involved. Not only is it mandated by Scripture and tradition, but it safeguards your soul as well as being a needed wakeup to the wayward in TEC. Lingering only encourages them in their error. At some point, the only Christian way to help them is from the outside.

What good does it serve to teach the faith, albeit compromised by a false sense of unity, from within an apostate institution? Any of those you "save" are still within that institution. They think it's ok to stay. The institution itself is a witness against your faith and works against you. Not only is it uncatholic beyond words, but it is unwise. To put it another way, if the Biblical injunctions to separate are ever, ever applicable, they are here.

All the stuff we hear about, "there is hope yet so I'm staying" is really a mask for the fact that you have personal or sentimental ties to the institution or the particular parish. These prevent you from leaving because it is emotionally traumatic. At least face that and put down a firm marker of when will be the time to leave. "Never hold hands with a jumper."

There is no call here for precipitous departure. The evil in TEC took hold long ago. Those still inside have had a very long time and a plethora of warnings. It's really a kind of "last call" situation.

lh
Theophilos
Posted: 2007/2/25 21:19  Updated: 2007/2/25 21:19
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Micro and lion heart you are right, the Global South, the England, NZ, Australia, Ireland, Canada Evangelicals(I include myself in this group), Anglican Communion Network and Windsor bishops and folks in USA, AMiA, CANA, are all a bunch of Protestants institutional the love our DENOMINATION. We all want be part of the ECCLESIASTICAL BODY( according to the Holy See we are not a proper church). My dear Gregory can you answer to me why so people who call themselves catholics want to be part of a Protestant denomination that according to Rome isn't a proper Church?
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/25 23:44  Updated: 2007/2/25 23:46
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Theophilos,

I was just using "uncatholic" to mean "not in keeping with the faith of the ancient Church", not necessarily the Roman Catholic Church. I'm not Roman Catholic.

Both Rome and the Orthodox understand our churches to be The Church spoken of in the Nicene Creed. Nonetheless, I used to be an Anglo-Catholic so often I speak in relative, inexact terms by necessity. If I were to be totally frank it would seem rude. We consider Roman Catholics to be schismatics and Protestants to be heretics, one and all. However, Anglo-Catholics are viewed by many Orthodox as about as close to the truth one can come absent becoming Orthodox. When we say there is "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" we understand this to mean visible unity. Neither Rome nor the Orthodox, because of our understanding of who we are, can acknowledge other "Churches". It's nothing personal. Sometimes we use "church" uncapitalized to make the distinction.

lh

chaps is Orthodox, BHTech is Roman Catholic, lapittengr is an Anglo-Catholic in one of the Continuing churches.
gregory
Posted: 2007/2/27 12:59  Updated: 2007/2/27 12:59
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Theophilos, you ask; "My dear Gregory can you answer to me why so people who call themselves catholics want to be part of a Protestant denomination that according to Rome isn't a proper Church?"

i think you think that if someone says they are "catholic" you think that means Roman Catholic.

Well as most people know the RCC were the first Protestants and that the Pope was the first Protestant but claimed the word "catholic" as "Catholic". (Word plays just like the revisionists in TEc.) Then RCC got arrogantly mad and claims all further revisionists have an improper church.
And they, RCC, continued to innovate/revise the Orthodox Faith.


It'd have been better if everyone would have returned to Orthodoxy/Orthodox Church. (It is not to late for us.) Which was the original faith in England before the splits that keep happening to the tune of over 20,000 protestant churches today. So now everyone has a protestant church that is defined by where you draw the line to stop the revisions.

hope that helps.

Lenten Blessings, gregory


ps i tried to answer your question.
Will you try to answer mine;

Ever wonder why this site is called;
"The Voice of Global Orthodox Anglicanism"?
badcat
Posted: 2007/2/27 23:16  Updated: 2007/2/27 23:16
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Posts: 173
 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
At first glance I thought deaconM's avatar depicted his stigmata!
curtpenn
Posted: 2007/2/28 20:10  Updated: 2007/2/28 20:11
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Dear LH,

I find that I almost always agree 100% with everything you post. Thank you for the good work. This morning, as usual, I attended a Men's Bible Study at my parish - a generally conservative/orthodox parish in the generally orthodox Diocese of Dallas. I've been advocating the need to disassociate ourselves from TEC for some time and have become increasingly frustrated with the lack of movement in this direction. I , too, doubt that anything concrete will come from the "line in the sand". However, several in my group are of the opinion that this is a good thing for one reason only - the legal arguments for those parishes who ultimately decide to leave TEC will be strengthened in the sense that they will be able to claim that it is TEC that has "left". Supposedly, this will make it easier to win any property disputes. I suppose there is some validity to this, but doubt that we (that is, the parish) will ever really develop the resolve to truly separate.

Regards,
C
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/28 20:26  Updated: 2007/2/28 20:26
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
curtpenn,

First, thank you.

Second, it is a precarious position that some find themselves in. If you can live with your bishop; i.e., if his episcopal visits aren't a problem because of his beliefs or actions, then I can understand waiting in order to make a stronger case regarding the property. I hope counsel has advised you all on that though. If you're not in contact with those who have successfully split and kept their property, or with some attorney or organization that has knowledge of TEC and the law in your jurisdiction, I would make contact to really get the lay of the land.

God bless,

lh
gregory
Posted: 2007/3/1 13:55  Updated: 2007/3/1 13:55
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From: Nflorida
Posts: 4423
 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
badcat, i, too, "thought deaconM's avatar depicted his stigmata"

i got a real good explanation from Truthseekr.

Guess you know more about The Matrix than me.

humbly, gregory
gregory
Posted: 2007/4/6 11:44  Updated: 2007/4/6 11:44
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From: Nflorida
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 Re: PRIMATES DRAW LINE IN THE SAND FOR UNRULY CHURCH
Theo' Rossi

""i tried to answer your question.
Will you try to answer mine;

Ever wonder why this site is called;
"The Voice of Global Orthodox Anglicanism"? ""


====
Guess Not ?


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