Archbishop's comments at the final press conference in Tanzania
20th February 2007
May I echo the thanks for your patience which Philip has already shared with you - we're very appreciative of the fact that it is late and we're all tired.
Also before I start, I went from one session just to check the BBC news and heard more details about he appalling bombing on the train in India and I know that all the Primates will want to put on record their grief and shock about this and their prayers for all involved and their families.
What I'd like to do is touch briefly - very briefly - on the issues in the final communiqué of our meeting. As usual, you'll see elements there of narrative - this is what we did, these are the activities we shared and these were the subjects we covered. You'll notice the reference there to the commissioning of our new representative at the United Nations, and following on form that, some discussion of future work that can be done on the Millennium Development goals by the Communion, especially in the forthcoming conference in Johannesburg in a few week's time at which I hope to be present.
We also received and welcomed the report on Theological Education and identified a new project on interpretation of the Bible.
The business of following through the recommendations of the Windsor report covers, as you see, a great deal of our business and it touches on what we've called the listening process, and we had an extremely good discussion and report from Canon Philip Groves and a great deal of information about the variety of responses and perspectives around the world on these questions around listening to the experience of homosexual people and the challenges of equitable and patient pastoral ministry to them.
There's a reference to the report on the Panel of Reference, you've heard something already of the Anglican Covenant, but it's probably the remainder of the document, from paragraph 17 onwards that contains the meat of our recommendations.
In short, the feeling of the meeting as a whole was that the response of the General Convention of The Episcopal Church to the recommendations of the Windsor report, a response made at General Convention last year, represented some steps in a very encouraging direction but did not yet represent a situation in which we could say 'business as usual'. What that means in practice is spelled out in what follows.
We're still as a communion in a place where our doctrinal position is that of Lambeth 1.10 and where that position has been reiterated in a number of Primates' Meetings, ACC meetings and a number of other fora. That hasn't changed. However there are two factors which we needed to take seriously and engage with.
The first is this: the response of The Episcopal Church, while not wholly clear, represented a willingness to engage with the Communion and awareness of the cost of difficulty that decisions have generated, so our first questions is 'how do we best engage with that willingness?' How do we work with the stream of desire to remain with the Communion?
The second factor is the very substantial group of bishops and others within The Episcopal Church perhaps amounting to nearly one quarter of the Bishops who have spelt out not only their willingness to abide by the Windsor report in all its aspects, but to provide carefully worked-through system of pastoral oversight for those in The Episcopal Church who are not content with the decisions of General Convention.
So what you have before you is an attempt to see if there is, while the Covenant is being discussed around the Communion, to see if there is an interim solution that will certainly fall very far short of resolving all the disputes that are before us but will provide a way of moving forward with integrity. A system of pastoral care for the substantial minority in The Episcopal Church, an encouragement for them and others within The Episcopal Church in whatever desire they have to remain on stream with the rest of the Communion; and also, more importantly a way of beginning to negotiate a way through the very difficult situations that have been created by interventions from other Provinces in the life of The Episcopal Church.
We accepted the good faith of those responsible for such interventions, and we heard some very moving testimonies about that; at the same time they and we recognise that that can only be a temporary solution and the preferable solution is to have some kind of settlement negotiated within the church life of the United States.
Hence the recommendations of the Primates at the end; a proposal to establish a pastoral council; a responsibility shared between the Primates' Meeting and the Presiding Bishop, asking those bishops who have already offered to take up this responsibility to provide pastoral care within The Episcopal Church for the conscientious minority and a challenge to both sides really, a challenge to The Episcopal Church to clarify its position; a challenge also to those who have intervened from elsewhere to see if they can negotiate their way towards an equitable settlement within the life of the North America Church.
You'll notice that we also suggested, to pick up an unfortunate metaphor that's been around quite a bit, the kind of ceasefire in terms of litigation. At the very end of the recommendations you'll see that the very last paragraph that the primates urge representatives of The Episcopal Church and of those congregations in property disputes with it, to suspend all actions in law arising from this situation, None of us; none of us believe that litigation and counter litigation can be a proper way forward and we don't see that we can move towards sensible balanced reconciliation while that remains a threat in wide use.
Those are the bones of what we've said here; I'd like to put it in the context of the Covenant process which you've already heard a little about and to suggest to you that what it amounts to is a package, not one single proposal, not one single scheme, but a way of encouraging and nurturing certain elements in The Episcopal Church a way of clarifying the challenge overall that the Communion wants to put to The Episcopal Church within that time frame during which the covenant will be discussed and we hope eventually accepted. Thank you.
Question concerning homosexuality; is it a gift from God or is it a sin?
The teaching of the Anglican Church remains that homosexual activity is not compatible with scripture. The homosexual condition, the homosexual desire, we don't call conditions sinful in that sense.
Q Was the cost of keeping the communion together allowing other provinces to continue to trespass on the property of The Episcopal Church?
Well I think if you look at the communiqué you'll see that that's precisely the situation we're trying to rectify and to well, to end. Now that's not going to happen tomorrow, but that is certainly very explicitly there as a concern shared round the room.
Q What's this we hear about you guys joining up with the Roman Catholic Church?
What's this we hear about the end of the world ... I think what you hear is a really rather remarkably garbled version of a document which has appeared recently which simply states where we are practically in the limits of cooperation between ourselves and the Roman Catholic Church a document agreed by Anglican and Roman Catholic bishops around the world and suggesting what can be done in pastoral practice; it amounts to no more than that.
Q [response of the (TEC) House of Bishops ...] consequences of failure to spell out
I think it's impossible for me to speculate about the House of Bishops in the US and indeed the Presiding Bishop is not in a position, as indeed none of us is in a position to deliver the whole of the House of Bishops we hope that they will. On the specifics on the wording - well, these are the terms that have been put to them, I think it would be rather difficult if there were a response in other terms.
On consequences, you'll see there in the paper what seems a statement of bare fact; that if the House of Bishops cannot in good conscience - and that's an important phrase because there are consciences involved - on both sides of this debate. If the reassurances cannot in good conscience, then in fact the damage is not repaired, and that has to affect some of the consideration we would want to give about the organs of the Communion.
Q Including invitations to Lambeth?
Among other things, that'll have to be under consideration, I don't pre-empt a decision but that'll have to be discussed.
Q Archbishop Akinola ... has he chosen to walk away from this?
Archbishop Akinola has declared that he is prepared to support this document.
Q What message is this sending to people in the pews who are tired of this ... what would you say is the end goal?
The end goal is the Kingdom of God, isn't it, and that takes a while. What would I say to people in the pews? I would say first of all that Gospel remains the Gospel –that is the love of God, the challenge of God the love of God promising absolution, the challenge of God requiring change. That doesn't change and for people to go on in the baptised life, sharing Holy Communion, serving the world, there is no imperative bigger than that.
I said I went back from one session and put the news on and looking at the levels of human grief, terror and suffering around the world, it did seem to me that in many ways it's quite difficult to persuade people that the Church - I don't just mean the Anglican Church - has transforming good news when most of what people hear about us is our own internal divisions. There's a lot in this communiqué about what else we're doing, that is the other 97% of what the Church does in terms of the Millennium Development Goals and other matters. I do hope people will bear that in mind as the primary vision.
Q Primates concern about the problems of Africa; have they forgotten Africa?
God forbid! The discussion we had on the Millennium Development Goals, to come back to that again, focussed on many of these issues and we heard discussions not only of course about Africa, but certainly about Africa and other places. We heard about the challenge of corruption, the challenge of debt, the challenge of course about HIV and Aids, which is a major focus of a forthcoming conference in Johannesburg; and of course I had the privilege of being able to discuss some of these things with the President of Tanzania and with the President of Zanzibar during this visit and get some sense of what was being done in these terms.
Now one important fact here is that we have tired to reaffirm the capacity of the Church to deliver the Millennium Development Goals at grass roots level in a way that no other voluntary organisation can. This is a central theme in the thinking of many people in the Anglican Church at the moment and one of the challenges we have to rise to is whether we can better coordinate our work for development and in meeting these goals.
Q Primatial vicar - will he trump the canons? ...What authority will this figure have?
Well if you bear with me while I try and explain what is admittedly a slightly complicated concept. The Presiding Bishop has declared willingness to entertain the notion of a Primatial Vicar. What you have here is the model that those bishops within the United States who have declared their willingness to abide by Windsor and so forth should be given the right to nominate a person who will act in the terms that they recognise as constituting and offering adequate pastoral oversight. To that person the PB will delegate certain power, but that person will be responsible to the council, the Pastoral Council that will be set up, as a means of communications with the Primates as a body. Now operating under the canons and constitutions; that's a difficult one to be clear about.
Now you won't have, shouldn't have any bishop operating any canons and constitutions and the bishops we're talking about, never mind for a moment the practice of TEC, the canons and constitutions as such don't violate their conscience even if the practice does, so the challenge is to work out what that would mean, the proper degree of independence and critical engagement which I think is meant to be represented by the link to the Primates meeting as a whole, not just to the Presiding Bishop and the structure do TEC.
It's an experiment; pray for it.
ENDS
| Poster | Thread |
|---|---|
| KievCaves | Posted: 2007/2/20 19:40 Updated: 2007/2/20 19:40 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/19 From: Posts: 82 |
"Its an experiment;"
uh huh ... more like excrement |
| Gander | Posted: 2007/2/20 19:44 Updated: 2007/2/20 19:44 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/31 From: Less than 1 Earth diameter away Posts: 452 |
Or, to be brief:
Let them eat cake. Don |
| IMGB007 | Posted: 2007/2/20 19:55 Updated: 2007/2/20 19:55 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/15 From: Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 93 |
Quote:
So what you have before you is an attempt to see if there is, while the Covenant is being discussed around the Communion, to see if there is an interim solution that will certainly fall very far short of resolving all the disputes that are before us but will provide a way of moving forward with integrity. Sorry, too little too late. See ya. P.S. I think this is transcribed wrong. In keeping with everything else ABC has said and done, he surely said "moving forward with Integrity" and not "moving forward with integrity." |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/2/20 19:59 Updated: 2007/2/20 20:00 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684 |
Quote:
"To that person the PB will delegate certain power, but that person will be responsible to the council, the Pastoral Council that will be set up, as a means of communication with the Primates as a body." All well and good, but what "power" will that "Primatial Vicar" have? I'm not crazy about the idea, but let's see some suggestions before this is implemented! Cennydd |
| OtisPage | Posted: 2007/2/20 20:04 Updated: 2007/2/20 20:04 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/4 From: Posts: 667 |
ABC is obviously a party to the TEC strategy of "reconciliation through weardown".
Someone is lying, and it is obvious where the lie is and who are the liars. The deceit is apparent -- for the only decisiveness is that of accommodation. The Anglican Communion has lost its "theological balls" on the alter of revisionism where Scripture is subordinated to the sex act manifested by homosexuality. |
| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/2/20 20:17 Updated: 2007/2/20 20:19 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
"Those are the bones of what we've said here."
Yes, the bones of an emaciated body. Does anyone think that Katherine Schori, the Presiding Bishopess of all who are still members of The Episcopal Church (inluding the "conservative dioceses" which are still under her "authority"), really think that she will allow a primatial vicar to subvert her authority or agenda??? This option is dead on arrival because this "vicar" will answer directly to her. But hey, they have said to the orthodox remainers "wait 7 months" then they will hear what the TEC House of Bishops says about Tanzania. Then wait for Lambeth 2008. Then wait for a response from the Communion. Then wait for TEC to respond to the response. Then there will be another meeting scheduled in another year to talk about that. Oh, by the way, it is gonna take at least 3 years to hammer out a covenant that all can agree on. Wow. This is all a cruel joke to those who thought that Tanzania would bring resolution and relief. I pray for them today. Sam + |
| lionheart | Posted: 2007/2/20 20:22 Updated: 2007/2/20 20:22 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/19 From: Posts: 354 |
"If the reassurances cannot in good conscience, then in fact the damage is not repaired, and that has to affect some of the consideration we would want to give about the organs of the Communion.
Q Including invitations to Lambeth? Among other things, that'll have to be under consideration, I don't pre-empt a decision but that'll have to be discussed. Q Archbishop Akinola ... has he chosen to walk away from this? Archbishop Akinola has declared that he is prepared to support this document." So, there you have it. No automatic excommunication for refusal by TEC, just kick the can down the road. No automatic withdrawal of invitation to Lambeth, just kick the can down the road. Also, apparently from the ABofC's comments, ++Akinola signed on to this abomination. nuff said, lh |
| lionheart | Posted: 2007/2/20 20:25 Updated: 2007/2/20 20:25 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/19 From: Posts: 354 |
As has been observed for years on this site, talk and talk and talk with no end in sight and nothing but dwindling resistance to acceptance of revisionist ideas. The patient is terminal and the patient is the Anglican Communion.
lh |
| Isaac | Posted: 2007/2/20 20:35 Updated: 2007/2/20 20:35 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/3/1 From: Texas Posts: 595 |
Did you all catch this:
"We also...identified a new project on interpretation of the Bible." Isaac |
| lionheart | Posted: 2007/2/20 20:45 Updated: 2007/2/20 20:45 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/19 From: Posts: 354 |
angler2,
Yes, some people are being fooled by fussing from certain liberals that too much was given up. I don't think that's much of an indicator. Schori seems to be fine with it all and if SHE's fine, it's a royal reaming. lh |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/2/20 20:46 Updated: 2007/2/20 20:46 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684 |
Sam+, thanks! This bilious bile from Schori makes me sick! And that's not what I really wanted to say, but my gentlemanly upbringing prevents me from saying what I really feel. I'd get kicked off this blog if I unloaded my feelings on her....and Abp Williams, now that I've found out what he really stands for!
Peace! Cennydd |
| FrMikeLee | Posted: 2007/2/20 20:46 Updated: 2007/2/20 22:39 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/9 From: Tennessee Posts: 24 |
"The Anglican Communion has lost its "theological ****" on the alter of revisionism where Scripture is subordinated to the sex act manifested by homosexuality."
+Ridley, +Latimer, ++Cranmer, and untold other martyrs of the Evangelical and the Catholic positions, sacrificed their lives for Christian Truth. Even though they disagreed among and between themselves, none would have stood silently for the anti-scriptural pottage that is being put in place of the Christian birthright. How sad. Even sadder it is that no one among them finally stood to defend the true faith. "From those who have not, even the little they have shall be taken away." (and remember, they have not because they ask not) And so it ends. Fr. Mike Lee Sparta, TN |
| FrMikeLee | Posted: 2007/2/20 20:48 Updated: 2007/2/20 20:56 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/9 From: Tennessee Posts: 24 |
I wonder what in the world Tony Blair was thinking as he "stuck" the Anglican Communion with the current ABC?
Mike+ |
| Romans828 | Posted: 2007/2/20 20:56 Updated: 2007/2/20 21:09 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/27 From: Posts: 244 |
Williams claims to be tired, but this press conference shows an Archbishop of Canterbury who isn't even in control of the facts.
Schori signed a communique calling for a Primatial Vicar, and now all Williams can say is that she's agreed to entertain the notion?? Williams doesn't even know what Schori's position is on such a crucial matter? He also doesn't know how a Primatial Vicar and Pastoral Council can or would operate legally given the constitution and canons of TEC. Williams also doesn't know what should happen if the majority, but not all, of the House of Bishops goes along with the recommendations. He also doesn't know if a recalcitrant TEC will have its bishops invited to Lambeth. According to the communique, Williams and the rest of the Primates don't even know yet if CANA and AMiA are to be included in the process. The feeling I get from Williams' comments is that he's much more concerned about ecclesiastical niceties about "intervention" than he is about the integrity of theology. Williams is one of those people who incorrectly believe that the precedent coming from the Council of Nicea is that the territory of the princes of the church is preserved in times of heresy. (Read the canons of Nicea -- the dioceses of heretics are NOT preserved from intervention, and Williams keeps forgetting about that fact.) He also incorrectly asserts that there was a desire of General Convention to comply with Windsor -- anyone following the convention knows that what little they passed they passed at the last minute and only under the influence of Griswold as he could see how little GC had done about Windsor. In short, Williams is in the dark and has no concept of any consensus coming from the Primates. This meeting in Tanzania was one of the most important meetings (potentially) in the history of the Anglican Communion; it was Williams' responsibility to make it productive and all he left us with is a fudge. The Anglican Communion has no meaningful leadership, and I can't see why anyone would have confidence in Williams at this point. It is time for the Archbishop of Canterbury to resign. |
| Borat | Posted: 2007/2/20 21:26 Updated: 2007/2/20 21:26 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/2/20 From: Posts: 1 |
Friends, I am just not buying it! What we all needed was solid answers NOW, solutions NOW, a new province NOW, Gene Robinson deposed NOW! Whatever happened to putting right the things that we have done wrong?, giving back what we have stolen? How can TEC allow Robinson to remain a bishop, and TEC remain in communion with Canterbury when Canterbury is saying NO to Homosexual bishops???. If he {Robinson} can remain, then it would be unfair not to consecrate other gays, right?. If he can have a cookie, why can't I ?
The only answer was to demand Robinson's removal, to demand a moratorium on Same Sex Blessings, to demand that TEC comply with Windsor, (which they haven't), and to break communion with TEC until such times as it had repented and was therefore ready for new life in the communion. Sadly, all we got was Schori (a non Christian?) seated, validated, and elected to the Primates standing Committee, and a weak as water covenant that has no teeth, and another 7 months of talking and listening. So more orthodox priests will be persecuted, more parishes will be forced to flee, and more souls will be lost. All because our primates lacked chutzpah at the table! Rome seems like the only option to me, and I am not even sure about that. I feel absolutely betrayed by a church that is no longer headed by Christians, and where money and power are the name of the game. How many times does the name Jesus appear in their written ramblings and why is the covenant a type of theo-legalise? Jesus spoke in plain and clear parables, His message was clear, make the Father's will simple to understand and all will have a chance at salvation. We have lost so many people from our church and it's not over yet. A week ago we all pinned our hopes on Dar Es Salaam, now we are looking to the great hope in September. Then what...February, or July, or August???? "TEC put on notice" came out of the Primates meeting in Ireland, they have had their chances, and they are still without discipline. We were promised that Dar would be different and it hasn't been, just more fudge and conjecture. I am hoping our godly bishop's can provide us with some 'real world' answers to how we are going to get away from TEC. I for one cannot accept the Primacy of Schori, but it seems that ++Rowan will not provide oversight, and perhaps we wouldn't want that based upon his recent acts in Dar. So where do we stand?? You may remember that when St Paul sent Onesimus back to his owner, he said that Onesimus was a good man, who had repented and wanted to start a new life. St Paul offered to make good on the money that Onesimus had stolen. The debt needed to be cleared. What a standard!! Even today when a court of law finds someone guilty of a crime, there is usually a monetary fine or a calculated period of time behind bars commensurate with that fine. This is why I know that the Anglican Communion is not serious about breaking with TEC. If they were, then they would demand that Robinson be removed and a letter of repentence sent from all who laid hands on him or who supported and consented to his consecration. Nothing less will do. While he remains in office we are still to the world a "gay church". They cannot truly become complient with scripture while he remains in office. Even if they don't consecrate more homosexuals, the precedent remains! As you can see, I am not at all uplifted by the spin on what really happened. The time for conservative action was at the table. Evidence admitted after the trial is inadmissable as far as I am concerned. Primatial Vicar..are you having a laugh!!! |
| IMGB007 | Posted: 2007/2/20 21:45 Updated: 2007/2/20 21:45 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/15 From: Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 93 |
This just in. TEC Presiding Bishop, the Wrong Reverend Katherine Jefferts-Schori appoints retired bishop John Shelby Spong to be Primatial Vicar to those dioceses who are disaffected. Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams comments, "Good show, old girl."
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/2/20 22:01 Updated: 2007/2/20 22:01 |
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"You gotta...know when to 'hold em'....
Know when to fold'em... Know when to walk away.... Know when to run...." ----------------- time to fold'em and run. DAG |
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| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/2/20 22:11 Updated: 2007/2/20 22:12 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684 |
IMGB007, please.....don't give that dame any ideas....she might be reading this!
Cennydd |
| tony_s | Posted: 2007/2/20 22:16 Updated: 2007/2/20 22:16 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/2/26 From: Posts: 2 |
IMHO there are some unhelpful, cynical and even invective reamrks on this website... other pages more so. http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/uploads/smil3dbd4d99c6eaa.gif
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/uploads/smil3dbd4d99c6eaa.gif Agreed, there has been much tension and suspense these last days, and patience with these leaders we are stuck with is at an all-time-low. I confess I swing from pessimism to tiny sprinkles of optimism, then remember what we are called to: FAITHFULNESS to the Lord and His Word. However, before throwing in the towel, I do recommend a read of the Covenant before you discard it; there are Gospel mandates included, calls to task for TEC('bout time too!) AND sincere recognition of the seriousness of the mess. What puzzles me is the apparent wholesale adoption (TEC already, now RW) of the MDGs!!! What the heck have they got to sdo with the Gospel Mandate to go and make disciples?!!! Can anyone briefly post a history of UN, its spiritual origins / orientation (hidden agendas???) http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/uploads/smil3dbd4dcd7b9f4.gif http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/uploads/smil3dbd4dcd7b9f4.gif |
| lapittengr | Posted: 2007/2/20 22:29 Updated: 2007/2/20 22:29 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/21 From: Posts: 195 |
Let's look at the essentials here
Look at what ++Williams focuses on in terms of the “bones” of the Communique and PECUSA: PECUSA has to clarify, and the “Global South parishes” have to be ‘returned’ to PECUSA under the Primatal Vicar system. This, for him, seems to be the heart of what was said re the Episcopal Church—and addressing jurisdiction-crossing draws a lot more of his attention in his “bare bones” summary than the few lines about “clarification”. In a follow-up question, it becomes clear that the consequences for PECUSA’s failure to renounce its revisionism remains very vague and indeterminate. Not only that, the communque itself, in addition to providing PECUSA with a number of other excuses for delay (e.g. “jurisdiction crossing, in violation of Windsor, is still going on”... and the ABC himself says here that won’t be fixed by September; plus, of course, all sorts of “procedure” and “we need diocesean convention” delaying tactics) has also this “conscience” opt-out clause: Quote: if the House of Bishops cannot in good conscience – and that’s an important phrase because there are consciences involved – on both sides of this debate. If the reassurances cannot in good conscience, then in fact the damage is not repaired, and that has to affect some of the consideration we would want to give about the organs of the Communion. So look for PECUSA to delay the September deadline first with complaints about other primates crossing jurisdictional boundaries, then procedural delays (we have to wait for GenCon), then appeals to “conscience” by PECUSA, all of which will be used as excuses to put off replying to this repeated request for compliance with Windsor until after Lambeth 2008. Note, too, that the situation, if/when PECUSA is actually forced to expressly reject Windsor, is described as “remaining” strained… i.e. if PECUSA refuses, the status quo continues. : : On the Primatal Vicar—which I think is the deathknell for the “traditionalists” not just in PECUSA but also the Global South parishes—look at what is said. First, the solution is all about getting everyone back into PECUSA. The G.S. parishes are described as a "temporary solution", and that the prefered solution is to negotiate some settlement "within the Episcopal Church"... it’s all about keeping everyone in PECUSA. Second, the Primatal Vicar system is seen as temporary and ultimately inadequate: Quote: they and we recognise that that can only be a temporary solution and the preferable solution is to have some kind of settlement negotiated within the church life of the United States. Third, the question about the ‘status’ and ‘authority’ and under what ‘canons’ this P.V. will operate was met with a great deal of obfuscatory fudge, of which perhaps only the last line was at all clear: “It’s an experiment; pray for it.” He repeats that the P.V. will have only those powers willingly delegated by the P.B., and that the P.V. will be reporting to the Primatal ‘Council’ (which, remember, is 40% KJS-cronies and 60% compromise candidates): Quote: To that person the PB will delegate certain power, but that person will be responsible to the council, the Pastoral Council that will be set up, as a means of communications with the primates as a body. But just what “canons” this P.V. is operating under remains ambiguous at best… my money is on any authority being given to the P.V. being conditioned on remaining under PECUSA’s canons & General Convention. : : In sum, then, I think that, judging on the ABC’s summary, the real “meat” of this Communique is not so much the call for PECUSA’s clarification (a clarification which will be postponed and fudged as long as possible) but is, rather, the Primatal Vicar system which will arrange for the surrendering of G.S. parishes back to PECUSA. So I stand by my analysis of the Communique and its probably terminal impact on those ‘traditionalist’ Anglicans who are not in the Continuing churches - or, at least, the AMiA and maybe CANA. pax, LP |
| Romans828 | Posted: 2007/2/20 23:14 Updated: 2007/2/20 23:14 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/27 From: Posts: 244 |
Hey, did you hear Susan Russell on the Jim Lehrer News Hour a few minutes ago?
She said that if the Episcopal Church does what the Primates ask, she and like minded liberal parishes of the TEC may secede! As angry as all of us are over the fudge coming from Tanzania, it is gratifying to know that the world press is unanimously (as far as I know) interpreting the communique as an ultimatum to TEC, and the liberal Episcopal blogs are hopping furious right now. |
| Bob4th | Posted: 2007/2/20 23:20 Updated: 2007/2/20 23:20 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/23 From: McDonough GA Posts: 37 |
Dear all,
Several years ago, I found myself in the position that many are in regarding the Episcopal Church and its stubbornness in apostasy. With an eight year old daughter for whom my wife and I were responsible, I knew we had to leave the Episcopal Church but did not know where to go. As a formed RC Priest, I really did not want to reswim the Tiber and was never really comfortable with Eastern Orthodoxy. I was quite lucky to have accidentally found the Anglican Catholic Church. For those who are looking for a home, the ACC and the APCK (among others) might be a good place to come to rest for a while. At least when we fight (which isn't often anymore), it's not about core matters of faith. We'd love to see you. - Fr. Bob Jones, Diocese of the South |
| lapittengr | Posted: 2007/2/20 23:28 Updated: 2007/2/20 23:28 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/21 From: Posts: 195 |
Quote:
the liberal Episcopal blogs are hopping furious right now. I fullly believe this is mainly just posturing, so as to rack up as many "victim" points as they can (*sob*whine* no one listens to us! *sob*whine*) and spend those points on arranging for more delays, watering-down, and compromising. It's what they've done before... remember the reaction to Windsor? pax, LP |
| Romans828 | Posted: 2007/2/20 23:34 Updated: 2007/2/20 23:35 |
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Bob4th,
please check your inbox. I just sent you a private message. |
| CalAggie | Posted: 2007/2/21 0:36 Updated: 2007/2/21 0:36 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/4/9 From: Davis, CA Posts: 156 |
It is very interesting that just months ago it was the TEC that was apostate and now it seems the Communion as a whole is sick with sin...
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| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/2/21 1:29 Updated: 2007/2/21 1:29 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684 |
Romans828, it wouldn't surprise me if Ms Russell really came unglued at the news from Tanzania.....in fact, I think she just did! With the influence her bunch at Integrity and Claiming the Blessing have had in TEC, along with the communique (such as it is) from the Primates, only to see it waning, this amounts to panicky activity on her part.
The Primates' telling TEC that if they don't sign on to the Covenant by September 30th is a slap in the face for her, as far as I can see, and it could be that she's retreating into a defensive mode by saying that the Liberal dioceses might leave. I don't think she'd say something like this if things were going well....and it appears that all may NOT be going well in TEC with regard to the GLBT lobby after all! Cennydd |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/2/21 1:31 Updated: 2007/2/21 1:31 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684 |
And you're right about the Liberal blogs being hopping furious! GOOD!!
Cennydd |
| bcwright | Posted: 2007/2/21 2:55 Updated: 2007/2/21 2:55 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/7/4 From: Posts: 520 |
It will be interesting to see if this turns out to be a real ultimatum (with teeth) or just a slap on the wrist. However given the fact that ECUSA has already been given what amounts to an ultimatum in the form of the Windsor Report, only to have the primates waffle on the implementation of it and kick the footbal down the field until September, does not produce a lot of confidence that they will be much more decisive then either.
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| bcwright | Posted: 2007/2/21 2:59 Updated: 2007/2/21 3:01 |
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(Sorry, backed up to wrong page in history & got same article re-posted).
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| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2007/2/21 8:09 Updated: 2007/2/21 8:54 |
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“In short, the feeling of the meeting as a whole was that the response of the General Convention of The Episcopal Church to the recommendations of the Windsor report, a response made at General Convention last year, represented some steps in a very encouraging direction but did not yet represent a situation in which we could say 'business as usual'. What that means in practice is spelled out in what follows.”
“Business as usual” has lead to heresy. The Primates got bogged down in all the details and forgot what the responsibility of a Christian church really is and the responsibilities of the leaders of the church are. Focus is important. Supporting the UN Millennium Development Goals can be a helpful thing. But giving it more weight than it deserves, as the Anglican Communion is just a rather small player, but wants to ride the exposure express, is more of a distraction than a focus at this time and in this way. ”We're still as a communion in a place where our doctrinal position is that of Lambeth 1.10 and where that position has been reiterated in a number of Primates' Meetings, ACC meetings and a number of other fora. That hasn't changed. However there are two factors which we needed to take seriously and engage with. The first is this: the response of The Episcopal Church, while not wholly clear, represented a willingness to engage with the Communion and awareness of the cost of difficulty that decisions have generated, so our first questions is 'how do we best engage with that willingness?' How do we work with the stream of desire to remain with the Communion?” Once again, stuck on the details and missing the point. The way forward is simple with divine guidance provided in Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition. It has been there the entire time. They are still dancing around how best to minister to homosexuals. The TEc and some of the others have made an attempt to minister to homosexuals. Their approach was tragically flawed. Instead of concentrating on HOW to properly minister to homosexuals, once again they got nervous and looked for something that could distract them from doing so. Changing the subject and ignoring the issue does not solve it. Just chastising TEc will not solve it. Even excommunicating the TEc will not solve it. The issue is HOW to minister to homosexuals and bring them to Christ in a compassionate Christian manner without sacrificing our faith in the process. Homosexuals make people nervous. People want to be compassionate and inclusive and do God’s work. But the history of the church has been to either ignore them or cast them out. They are people created in His image just as the rest of us. They are sinners and fall short in their faith, just as the rest of us. We minister to the sick, the infirm and criminally insane, yet because homosexuals make us nervous, we historically have looked for ways to be distracted so we would not have to deal with them. By not living up to our responsibility to minister to them, we have created this mess. The way forward is to present a healthy way to do so for everyone involved and approach it in a Christian manner. We now have that degenerative condition we call guilt and the need for atonement. The TEc has taken this to the extreme. Their approach has been guilt ridden to the point of self flagellation. They have beat themselves senseless and actually feel good about it. Their need for atonement is so great that they are willing to sacrifice everything to make up for it, to the point of forcing their entire congregation to place the homosexual sex act on an alter and worship it. That was just modern era stupidity. That does not minister to the homosexuals in a Christian manner at all, and does not adequately lead them to Christ. It only ensures that others are afflicted with the homosexual mindset. Calling it wrong and aligning yourself against it makes you feel better, but it still does not solve the problem. You see the error, but not the way forward, other than once again ignoring homosexuals and casting them out, which is why we are where we are in the first place. God loves homosexuals in spite of their affliction just as He loves us in spite of our afflictions. In some ways we are also unrepentant sinners, as we continue to sin and look to rationalize our errant afflictions away. Homosexuals are no different. But homosexuals make us nervous. We would rather minister to a murderer than a homosexual. That needs to change. And until that changes, the situation will be controlled by Satan. Homosexuals are far more than just an affliction for perverted sex acts. Just because we have afflictions does not mean we can’t be good people otherwise. We can still be graced by God in other areas of our lives. There is a better and more Christian way of ministering to homosexuals. That is the way forward. Distracting ourselves with the latest fad, as the UN Millennium Development Goals, only act as distraction so we do not have to do something that God has called us to do because it makes us nervous. Get over it, and get on with God’s work. This is only a big issue because we have successfully hidden from it for so long. THAT is the solution. Once accomplished, this huge problem will simply cease to exist. |
| DavidS | Posted: 2007/2/21 10:42 Updated: 2007/2/21 11:43 |
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Withdrawn
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| Taggie | Posted: 2007/2/21 11:06 Updated: 2007/2/21 11:06 |
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I left TEC back in 1991 after the attempted consecration of the first female bishop. (also in Conn. if memory serves) I went to Rome mainly because in my very low church region there were no alternatives, no continuers, no REC, no English speaking Orthodox. Now as I look back I thank God for his providence. My stubborn heart would have looked almost anywhere else but Rome! Over the last 15 years I have come to appreciate the truth of it's teachings while sometimes despairing of the behavior of it's members, both clerical and lay. But remember, the warts are in the sinful people who belong to the Church, not it's teachings, or it's polity.
What I see in the continuing disintegration of the Anglican Communion, which is still dear to my heart, is the lack of a mechanism to decide on truth. OK, we can say "biblical truths" all day, but in the end someone has to define them in particular times and circumstances. Rome has the magisterium and, by the grace of God, the papacy, protected from error in matters of faith and morals by God's gift of the Holy Spirit. (That is if Jesus was serious about the gates of hell not prevailing against it.) In Anglicanism, the mechanism is Robert's Rules of Order. One can sit and politely debate, but, if Dr. Shori's position carries 51% of the vote that is where the communion goes. Whether we speak of TEC, the Anglican Communion, or any of the continuing churches, in the final analysis the majority vote is the ultimate authority. If you can believe that the Holy Ghost will infalibly inform such votes then rejoice and stay where you are. Perhaps God really is doing "a new thing" with homosexuality as we were told in 1979 that he was doing in ordaining women,and as we were told in 1930 about contraception, and as we were told in 1534 about divorce. Perhaps God does change with the times. On the other hand, if Jesus was serious when he told Simon that he was now Peter "upon this rock!" then He must have left a mechanism for the Rock to function, not just until Peter died, but through his successors until He comes again in glory to judge the quick and the dead. The Roman Catholic Church, The Barque of Peter, is quite leaky, most of the leaks caused by us sinners who sail in Her. She faces daunting challenges. The waves of secular humanism and Islam are very big. You are all most welcome to come aboard and help us bail. May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Ghost, be with us all evermore. |
| DnNeal | Posted: 2007/2/21 11:28 Updated: 2007/2/21 11:28 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/26 From: Tennessee Posts: 1302 |
The bottom line is that the wolves are still among the sheep. And we all know what a wolf really wants with sheep.
Where in Scripture do we see that this is a good idea? The plan remains intact. Lord have mercy on those who buy into this, Neal |
| dwwagg | Posted: 2007/2/21 11:41 Updated: 2007/2/21 11:41 |
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Fire_Ready:
I would have to disagree with you regarding the ministry to homosexuals. We are all sinners, but we know that some sins are worse than others. I am addressing sins particularly noted as abominable,unforgivable, and sins of not obeying the ten commandments. The mission of any church is to minister to all sinners. There is no problem in ministering to sinners, but people want their Priests, and Bishops to be on a higher spiritual and moral level. Hence the problem that most every church in the world faces today. Should anyone who is openly committing a serious,abominable,or unforgivable sin, and is not repentant of those sins be called to a position of ministry in any church? I am not a Priest or Bishop because I do not have my life in such order that I could minister to others in that capacity. I am too busy keeping my own life in order. That is why I am part of the laity. Spiritual leaders should be called to a higher level in every facet of their life. The pride of these leaders clouds their good judgment. They believe that because they are called of God, he ignores their sins. What humble man or woman would not step aside from any church leadership position if they knew they had become a lightning rod for controversy, and that the controversy was shaking a 400+ year old church at its foundations. Pride and vanity as sins by church leaders are the root of the issue, not ministering to sinners. The more pride and vanity occurs, the more it becomes acceptable. The pride and vanity of church leaders will cause a churches downfall. God's church is perfect, the people in God's church aren't, but we should expect more of our church leaders. Maybe if they can't lead in God's word, they should follow God's word. |
| SixDays | Posted: 2007/2/21 11:47 Updated: 2007/2/21 11:47 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/23 From: G.K.K. Posts: 304 |
Taggie wrote:
Quote: If you can believe that the Holy Ghost will infalibly inform such votes then rejoice and stay where you are. Perhaps God really is doing "a new thing" with homosexuality as we were told in 1979 that he was doing in ordaining women,and as we were told in 1930 about contraception, and as we were told in 1534 about divorce. Perhaps God does change with the times. On the other hand, if Jesus was serious when he told Simon that he was now Peter "upon this rock!" then He must have left a mechanism for the Rock to function, not just until Peter died, but through his successors until He comes again in glory to judge the quick and the dead. Taggie; That was really thought provoking. Thank you. SD |
| smokymtn | Posted: 2007/2/21 12:41 Updated: 2007/2/21 12:41 |
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Greetings all. I think the comments of Ruin Williams reveal his agenda. In his comments, he states:
"The second factor is the very substantial group of bishops and others within The Episcopal Church perhaps amounting to nearly one quarter of the Bishops who have spelt out not only their willingness to abide by the Windsor report..." Am I to believe that 3 out of every 4 Bishops in TEC are in favor of same-sex blessings and the bishopric of Vicky Gene? Further: "So what you have before you is an attempt to see if there is, while the Covenant is being discussed around the Communion, to see if there is an interim solution that will certainly fall very far short of resolving all the disputes that are before us but will provide a way of moving forward with integrity. A system of pastoral care for the substantial minority in The Episcopal Church, an encouragement for them and others within The Episcopal Church..." A "substantial minority"??? Did you all realize you are now a minority in TEC? I left the apostate church several years ago and belong to the Orthodox Anglican Church, one of the growing continuing churhes in the U.S. We have no affiliation with Canterbury, and after reading this amazing spin by the supposed Chief Defender of the Faith, I'm really glad we don't! God bless you all. Pax, Smoky |
| gregory | Posted: 2007/2/21 13:16 Updated: 2007/2/21 13:19 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4423 |
Archbishop Williams' Comments do NOT mention Jesus Christ even one time.
He sorta speaks of a god ... He has lost the saltiness and is as dark as pepper. And does anyone see a Biblical reference used? humbly, gregory February 21, 2007 – Making a Lasting Impact Matthew 5:13-16 13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. 14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. ' First Timothy 2:4 says that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." His plan is to use believers to make an impact on the world. It's God’s will for each of us to live in such a way that we influence other people for their spiritual good. Jesus used two very distinct words salt and light to illustrate our mission. Salt is an additive used for flavoring and preserving. Its presence penetrates and spreads throughout any food on which it is sprinkled. As a result, there is a significant difference in flavor. Christians are to function the same way as salt: by spreading the appeal of Christ through our interaction with others. But, Jesus warns that the “saltiness” of our lives will decrease if we practice ungodly habits and attitudes. Chronic patterns of sin will render us “tasteless” and ineffective. Jesus also calls us to be light, just as He was (John 1:4, 9 - 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.; 1:9 That was the true Light which, coming into the world, gives light to every man.). Light drives out darkness, reveals what is present, illuminates the path ahead, and warns of danger. We're to do the same by reflecting the Savior’s presence through our conversation and conduct. Just as soot on a glass lantern diminishes its light, sin’s presence decreases the strength of our testimony and reduces our influence. The more sin there is in our lives, the less divine light we'll reflect. The composition of salt and the clarity of light are what gives them their power. Our character, which is who we are when no one is looking, can help or hurt our ability to affect our world. Consider the impact you can make by following God! |
| lionheart | Posted: 2007/2/21 13:40 Updated: 2007/2/21 13:53 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/19 From: Posts: 354 |
Taggie wrote,
' . . . if Jesus was serious when he told Simon that he was now Peter "upon this rock!" then He must have left a mechanism for the Rock to function, not just until Peter died, but through his successors until He comes again in glory to judge the quick and the dead." He was serious when He said what He said. But it's not what you said He said. He commended St. Peter for his confession of faith, named him Peter (petros), and then said "upon this rock (petra) . . ." referring to Peter's confession that Christ is the Son of the Living God. My Greek isn't too good but I believe petros refers to a movable stone and petra refers to a large immovable stone. On the last point, I'll ask some of the Greeks at church. Regardless, the Eastern Church has never understood the statement to establish the Roman idea of Petrine primacy, and that kind of demolishes its catholicity. "Perhaps God does change with the times." Perhaps He does. Perhaps He likes the new Mass which has lost its glory. Perhaps He really does object to the death penalty and just never bothered to mention it before. Perhaps He does believe in "social justice" and the schemes of taxation used to accomplish it rather than the charity He always seems to have endorsed. Perhaps. I doubt it though. lh |
| SixDays | Posted: 2007/2/21 13:55 Updated: 2007/2/21 13:55 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/23 From: G.K.K. Posts: 304 |
lh; I have absolutely no Greek training. Its good to have people like you who do. Thank you for your clarificaton. -SD
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| lionheart | Posted: 2007/2/21 13:59 Updated: 2007/2/21 13:59 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/19 From: Posts: 354 |
Reading the array of responses to these latest developments, I'm beginning to see that efforts to awaken those who have retained some of the historic faith who remain in TEC, and the AC, are probably going to reap a very low rate of return. I don't believe that the ecclesiology of those remaining is such that they actually see the problem of remaining in communion with the revisionists. The focus seems to be on "my orthodox parish". I'm not sure that this even rises to an Anglo-Protestant idea of what intercommunion means, but nonetheless it seems to be the prevailing opinion among the lingerers.
Good night and good luck, lh |
| ZachD | Posted: 2007/2/21 14:00 Updated: 2007/2/21 14:00 |
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Reposted, from the S.P.R.E.A.D. thread. I have not yet read this entire article, nor these responses. It just does not matter! (Which is not to suggest that friends don't say worthy things here.)
_______________________________________ Upon the advice of a friend, I yesterday emailed a contact person for a Continuing Parish in my own Canadian city. I had not known that this place had even existed! I await a response. Ash Wednesday is a fitting time for such an inquiry. My business is not yet concluded with the apostate house that is the Anglican Church. I wait for June, and in the several other loose ends that need to be explored and tied up. Blessings in Christ, all, |
| ZachD | Posted: 2007/2/21 14:03 Updated: 2007/2/21 14:07 |
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And lh,
If the lingerers know anything at all about the true and sad state of the church; they are either frightened, or in denial. Are we not all, at some level, Narcissists, in our broken state? We will seek pleasure and avoid discomfort at the same time. |
| lionheart | Posted: 2007/2/21 14:04 Updated: 2007/2/21 14:04 |
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SixDays,
My Greek is limited to church Greek. I looked up the terms in question to clarify my understanding. Don't look to me personally as a source of what koine Greek means though. As I said, I will ask some native speaker tonight to get a better understanding. lh |
| lionheart | Posted: 2007/2/21 14:07 Updated: 2007/2/21 14:07 |
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ZachD,
Yes it is a fitting time for examination, being the Lenten season and all. I hope many in TEC take the opportunity to reflect and make some permanent choices before the Feast of the Resurrection. Hopefully, some will die to TEC and the AC and be reborn into the Continuum or some other traditional churches. lh |
| SixDays | Posted: 2007/2/21 14:15 Updated: 2007/2/21 14:15 |
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Quote:
Upon the advice of a friend, I yesterday emailed a contact person for a Continuing Parish in my own Canadian city. I had not known that this place had even existed! ZachD; That is exciting news for you! I have no such luck. I suppose that since my TEC diocese is considered one of the most conservative, it was felt unnecessary to start a continuing church in my area. Therefore, the nearest one from me is over 2 hours away. Thats a bit too far for me to commute. You are blessed to have one in your city. -SD |
| Avanmar | Posted: 2007/2/21 14:23 Updated: 2007/2/21 14:23 |
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I am enjoying all the comments. Just wanted to add something positive...
"Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty strength. Put on the full armor of God so that you may be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." Ephesians 6:10-13 I am attending St. John's in Petaluma so I am interested in seeing the reaction from Rev. Miller to all this. |
| DnNeal | Posted: 2007/2/21 14:43 Updated: 2007/2/21 14:43 |
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A seventeenth century Roman Catholic scholar, Jean de Launoy, researched references to Matthew 16:18 ("Thou art Peter") and discovered that there were 17 Church Fathers who considered that Peter was the rock, 44 thought the rock was Peter's confession, 16 thought that the rock was Christ Himself, 8 thought the rock was the apostles as a whole.
Eighty percent did NOT consider the person of St. Peter to be the rock. This, along with a total absence of reference to papal supremacy and universal jurisdiction in the 7 Pre-Schism Ecumenical Councils, and the attempt by Medieval popes to base his supremacy on the forged documents The Donation of Constantine and The Isidoran decretals is enough for me. Want more? Check out Michael Whelton's book "Popes and Patriarch's: An Orthodox Persective on Roman Catholic Claims"--Conciliar Press. Blessings, Neal |
| doc4sale | Posted: 2007/2/21 15:01 Updated: 2007/2/21 15:01 |
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I am now thinking strongly that Bishop Murphy and the AMiA had it right in 2001...The only possible way to move forward was to divorce ones self completely and your Parish completely from then ECUSA and the Liberal wings of the Church. This whole thing smacks of yet more process, more "listening"...all of which is continuing to feed the furnaces of the revisionist/humanist secularists.(and pew sitters) I am convinced now that our own little "breakaway" congregation needs to get on board with the AMiA.... If the ACN and Bishop Duncan want to be suckered into more process you can count me out...Hmmmm, and the LCMS is starting to look better every day. Doc
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| Romans828 | Posted: 2007/2/21 15:06 Updated: 2007/2/21 15:06 |
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The Orthodox position on Peter continues from Mt 16:18 to Mt 18:18, wherein Christ gives the same authority to all the other disciples as he gives to Peter.
I'm surprised that I've never heard the following argument used before. Maybe I've just missed it -- but Peter also founded churches in cities other than Rome (Jerusalem and probably Antioch), so presumably these churches have the same authority as the Church of Rome. Also, Peter apparently did not FOUND the Church in Rome, but joined it. He arrived in Rome apparently in the early 60's, but the chuurch in Rome must have been founded by the late 50's, for that was when Paul's Epistle to the Romans was written. |
| DnNeal | Posted: 2007/2/21 15:32 Updated: 2007/2/21 15:32 |
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Romans 828
There is indeed much more to the Orthodox position and Protestants can benefit from it as well. By tradition St. Peter was the first Bishop of Antioch. But if it is the confession of St. Peter or Christ Himself who is the "rock" (as the majority of Fathers believed) then whether St. Peter or another Apostle started it doesn't matter. As the Orthodox have said all along the Bishop of Rome, by virtue of the position of Rome as the capital (as stated within Canon 28 of Fourth Ecmenical Council at Chalcedon), is "primus inter pares" (first among equals). I hesitated to address this question because it is technically off-topic but the question was entertained above. Blessings, Neal |
| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2007/2/21 17:06 Updated: 2007/2/21 17:32 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
dwwagg,
Thank you for your comments and providing me the opportunity to clarify mine. I think this is at the core of this issue. dwwagg wrote: ”I would have to disagree with you regarding the ministry to homosexuals. We are all sinners, but we know that some sins are worse than others. I am addressing sins particularly noted as abominable,unforgivable, and sins of not obeying the ten commandments.” There are no unforgivable sins. Yes, there are some worse than others. Unfortunately your position falls right into the jaws of the homosexual agenda. They wish to polarize us. Either we hate “fags” or we support the aggressive homosexual agenda. I do not believe I know anyone that has not disobeyed the ten commandments in one way or another. What we have done in the past is not as important as what we do from now on, because Jesus died for all of our sins, and all we need do is sincerely ask for forgiveness. dwwagg wrote: ”The mission of any church is to minister to all sinners. There is no problem in ministering to sinners, but people want their Priests, and Bishops to be on a higher spiritual and moral level. Hence the problem that most every church in the world faces today. Should anyone who is openly committing a serious,abominable,or unforgivable sin, and is not repentant of those sins be called to a position of ministry in any church?” I agree wholeheartedly! We deserve much more from our paid clergy. We pay them to be role models and beacons of light in Christ! Those active in committing condemned sexual acts should NOT be on the payroll! They have violated their vows! Those that “professionally” serve that have this affliction must have the firmness of their faith in Christ to abstain from sexual contact. dwwagg wrote: “I am not a Priest or Bishop because I do not have my life in such order that I could minister to others in that capacity. I am too busy keeping my own life in order. That is why I am part of the laity.” We have much in common. dwwagg wrote: “Spiritual leaders should be called to a higher level in every facet of their life. The pride of these leaders clouds their good judgment.” Their willingness to dwell in this activity displays their lack of faith. By looking for loopholes to justify their condemned behavior displays their lack of faith in His Written Word. Their pride and self preservation prevent them from honestly handling the situation. They are not leaders at all, and they no longer serve the Lord in their capacity. They have become heretics. dwwagg wrote: “They believe that because they are called of God, he ignores their sins. What humble man or woman would not step aside from any church leadership position if they knew they had become a lightning rod for controversy, and that the controversy was shaking a 400+ year old church at its foundations.” There are those that believe in the “once saved” selfish viewpoint, but they are on the road to disaster. Unlike the laity, our paid leaders lose their livelihood should they step aside, and they are ill prepared to earn a living without depending on church funding. They have become addicted to the kept life and talking theoretically for a paycheck. The world outside the church is not so understanding and forgiving. The real world we live in demands work and results. But those that are weak in their faith did not take it up professionally because of their conviction to Christ, but because it was the easy road. They will not willingly stand down. dwwagg wrote: “Pride and vanity as sins by church leaders are the root of the issue, not ministering to sinners.” I disagree. If the church had adequately ministered to homosexuals, we would not be in this predicament. The affliction of homosexual behavior would not have creped in the backdoor to be welcomed as if it was acceptable. It is that lack of attention of the homosexually afflicted that left them up to their own devices and as they became organized were not seen in the correct light. The church elected just to not see or understand the homosexual issue, let alone adequately address it. Even as homosexuality began permeating our seminaries, we still turned a blind eye to it. Then they became closeted priests. Then they cultivated their networks while we still refused to see or address the issue. Then these priest began being promoted to bishops, and we did not even then concern ourselves with it. Now they are coming out of the closet and openly living in homosexual relationships. Now we seem to want to go back to “the good old days” when we were blind to them and ripe to be exploited. Even if we should succeed, the cycle will then begin again. So the problem predates the revisionists that are presently causing the problem. They just reflect the problem. It will remain a problem until it is adequately addressed. God does not hate “fags”. There are enough people that truly want to help homosexuals so that not everyone has to be active in this ministry. But the homosexual ministry needs to be funded and managed. The homosexual ministry must be approached in a compassionate and Christian manner. One that does not call that which is condemned as equal or righteous in the eyes of the Lord. One that is caring enough to bring them to Christ. Their path will not be as clear initially as our path. They will need time for transition. Even if they are so afflicted that they can not change, they need to know God loves them. We should honor and support that ministry. We should not dwell on their limitations, but on the blessings of having Jesus Christ in their lives. But neither should we praise their condemned behavior. We should work on mutual respect so we do not create hardship for them and they do not create hardship for us. This is possible, and is being done every day, you just don’t realize it because it is not made into an issue. This is as it is meant to be. The aggressive homosexual agenda wants only those on the extremes to be noticed. They work to amplify the differences. One side believes God hates “fags" and the other sees that homosexuals are in your face and rude. Success is when there isn’t a problem, but respect on both sides. But to advertise that success then leads to the chaos that follows. Christ is not at the helm of the aggressive homosexual agenda, Satan is. That has been extremely problematic. Bringing the light of the Lord to homosexuals will force Satan to flee, providing our Triumvirate God the opportunity to touch their hearts. We do not change people, He changes people. We just bring them to Christ. That is our calling. dwwagg wrote: “The more pride and vanity occurs, the more it becomes acceptable. The pride and vanity of church leaders will cause a churches downfall.” This is self evident as this has unfolded. Our vain and prideful leaders that are weak in their faith are a result of the problem after many years of neglect. dwwagg wrote: “God's church is perfect, the people in God's church aren't, but we should expect more of our church leaders. Maybe if they can't lead in God's word, they should follow God's word.” God’s Written Word is perfect. It is our flawed perception of it at times that is imperfect. A church is a direct reflection of their congregation. If the church does not follow the guidance of Holy Scripture, it is not truly a Christian church, but a cult. Telling them what they are doing is wrong is easy. Showing them the more Christian way to proceed is not so easy. But there is a much better and much more Christian way. It has been in front of us the entire time. We have used it effectively to minister to all other afflicted people. We just didn’t use it when it came to homosexuals, because homosexuals make us nervous. Homosexuality is really no different than any other horrible affliction. It should be treated as compassionately and in a thoughtful Christian manner as we have treated all the other afflictions we have adequately addressed. Once we stop hiding from it, and address it in a thoughtful Christian manner, we will overcome it. Sticking our heads in the sand and wishing it will just go away is not an option (although that is the prevailing sentiment at this time). We need to present a thoughtful and well managed homosexual Christian ministry. That will remove homosexuality from the “equal” status the aggressive homosexuals want to force upon us, but it will also provide homosexuals with the opportunity to know our loving and compassionate God. There will be transition on God’s timeline, not ours. They may never reach the clear path we have taken, but God will be at the helm and Satan will be returned to the screaming fringes of the homosexual community and homosexuals will have the opportunity to experience God. The afflicted priests and bishops will then be laid bare. Their responsibilities will be much more clear, and they will have to either shape up or ship out. |
| lionheart | Posted: 2007/2/21 18:57 Updated: 2007/2/21 18:57 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/19 From: Posts: 354 |
To get back on topic for a moment,
I just read ++Orombi's comments on the meeting and it seems that the same old snafu has occured. The revisionists are going to read the document one way and the "orthodox" another. Some see a closed ended 7 month process. That is not the case. TEC has seven months to mumble and delay and possibly put out another equivocation, perhaps to say, "ok, no authorized rites for same sex blessings, (but we'll continue to bless same sex couples), etc. Then, after the 7 months, the process will begin for the AC to figure out to what extent they have complied or not and what to do about it if anything. It seems that some of the more conservative GS leaders, for whatever misguided reason, think that this has teeth. The are absolutely wrong. I can tell from the AB of C's equivocation above that we're all not reading the same document. lh |
| ZachD | Posted: 2007/2/21 23:55 Updated: 2007/2/22 0:02 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1782 |
We certainly are not, lh.
I have already commented on the 'Jackals among us' on other threads. It is true that we cannot unequivocally unburden ourselves in a few swift strokes. Sitting in the Canadian situation, I wait for June. But I am active and not simply 'waiting'. Only God knows where this is going, and I perceive that 'faithful soldiers and servants' are still needed in this foul arena. This is not to stay indefinitely, though. But it is not up to me alone. I am here to play a part, even a small one, and make attempts to listen to God in all that I do. The rest is up to Him, to whom I learn to surrender everything. |
| chaps | Posted: 2007/2/22 2:21 Updated: 2007/2/22 2:21 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/2/11 From: Posts: 438 |
ZachD wrote:
“Upon the advice of a friend, I yesterday emailed a contact person for a Continuing Parish in my own Canadian city. I had not known that this place had even existed!” That's great news, ZachD! Please let us know what you find out. SixDays wrote: “I suppose that since my TEC diocese is considered one of the most conservative, it was felt unnecessary to start a continuing church in my area. Therefore, the nearest one from me is over 2 hours away. Thats a bit too far for me to commute. You are blessed to have one in your city.” I'm sorry to hear that there are no continuing parishes in your area, SixDays. I am very concerned about the relatively few number of continuing parishes. I think that there are a variety of reasons—situations like yours where the diocese is conservative so there's no perceived need, communities that are so liberal there's little interest, parishes in which the only identifiable conservative members are too elderly to do a start-up, etc. I know of several dioceses in which both priests and laity are afraid of retaliation by the bishop. As near as I can tell, their fear is that the bishop will condemn them and that they will be ostracized—that they will be cut off from their friends. I don't know whether their fear is valid or not, but it has kept them from acting. Whatever the reason, the lack of continuing parishes is a serious problem. Scripture and the Canons make clear that remaining in TEc or the ACofC is not an option. I believe that also applies to the Anglican Communion—they are so heretical that remaining in CANA, AMiA, etc isn't an option (unless they depart from the Anglican Communion). If there is sufficient interest in your area, those still in TEc or the ACofC could start one. If not, that means going somewhere else, at least temporarily—not going to church also isn't an option. What I suggest is what I tried to get started on VOL about a year ago: make a list of what you believe both theologically and about worship and then start visiting parishes to see what is the best “fit.” I think one of the most important things to put on the list is what you believe about authority in the Church and polity—factoring in the lessons learned from the current mess in the Anglican Communion. May the Holy Spirit guide you in your search for a new Church home. chaps |
| ZachD | Posted: 2007/2/22 9:11 Updated: 2007/2/22 9:11 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1782 |
Initial report to chaps:
My faithful and godly rector, whom I trust completely, informs me that this group is Pentacostal-turned-Episcopal. Now I applaud ANYONE who seeks ecclesial order and liturgy to round out worship practise, but true Apostolic succession?, . . . I don't know about that one yet. Still awaiting a response to my inquiry. |
| chaps | Posted: 2007/2/22 10:00 Updated: 2007/2/22 10:00 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/2/11 From: Posts: 438 |
ZachD wrote:
"... Pentacostal-turned-Episcopal." Well, that doesn't sound fortuitous. Is your faithful and godly rector open to the continuum and/or the Western Rite of Orthodoxy and, if so, how many of the parishoners would go with him? Blessings, chaps |
| DnNeal | Posted: 2007/2/22 11:36 Updated: 2007/2/22 11:38 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/26 From: Tennessee Posts: 1302 |
Yikes. "Pentecostal turned Episcopal"
There are many gnostic camels under the AC tent. How many innovative and skewed camels are there uner a "Pentecostal turned Episcopal" tent? Even if they somehow manage "Apostolic succession" that does NOT mean they are in the Apostolic Tradition. The beliefs and practices of the Apostolic Tradition are not something to pick and choose from but to accept as a whole. The word Catholic literally means "of the whole". Putting differing beliefs and practices together would be as Fr. Patrick Henry Reardan quipped "Frankenstein ecclesiology". What you would have is not necesarily what you were looking for. It's not very pretty, the parts don't fit well, and it behaves in erratic ways. Blessings, Neal |






























