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News : DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in Dar es Salaam
Posted by Robert Turner on 2007/2/19 17:10:00 (5551 reads)

The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in Dar es Salaam

19th February 2007

1. We, the primates and Moderators of the Anglican Communion, gathered for mutual consultation and prayer at Dar es Salaam between 15th and 19th February 2007 at the invitation of the Archbishop of Canterbury and as guests of the Primate of Tanzania, Archbishop Donald Leo Mtetemela. The meeting convened in an atmosphere of mutual graciousness as the primates sought together to seek the will of God for the future life of the Communion. We are grateful for the warm hospitality and generosity of Archbishop Donald and his Church members, many of whom have worked hard to ensure that our visit has been pleasant and comfortable, including our travel to Zanzibar on the Sunday.

2. The Archbishop of Canterbury welcomed to our number fourteen new primates, and on the Wednesday before our meeting started, he led the new primates in an afternoon of discussion about their role. We give thanks for the ministry of those primates who have completed their term of office.

3. Over these days, we have also spent time in prayer and Bible Study, and reflected upon the wide range of mission and service undertaken across the Communion. While the tensions that we face as a Communion commanded our attention, the extensive discipleship of Anglicans across the world reminds us of our first task to respond to God's call in Christ. We are grateful for the sustaining prayer which has been offered across the Communion as we meet.

4. On Sunday 18th February, we travelled to the island of Zanzibar, where we joined a celebration of the Holy Eucharist at Christ Church Cathedral, built on the site of the old slave market. The Archbishop of Canterbury preached, and commemorated the 200th anniversary of the abolition of the slave trade in the United Kingdom, which had begun a process that led to the abolition of the slave market in Zanzibar ninety years later. At that service, the Archbishop of Canterbury admitted Mrs Hellen Wangusa as the new Anglican Observer at the United Nations. We warmly welcome Hellen to her post.

5. We welcomed the presence of the President of Zanzibar at lunch on Sunday, and the opportunity for the Archbishop of Canterbury to meet with the President of Tanzania in the course of the meeting.

The Millennium Development Goals

6. We were delighted to hear from Mrs Wangusa about her vision for her post of Anglican Observer at the United Nations. She also spoke to us about the World Millennium Development Goals, while Archbishop Ndungane also spoke to us as Chair of the Task Team on Poverty and Trade, and the forthcoming conference on Towards Effective Anglican Mission in South Africa next month. We were inspired and challenged by these presentations.

Theological Education in the Anglican Communion

7. We also heard a report from Presiding Bishop Gregory Venables and Mrs Clare Amos on the work of the primates' Working Party on Theological Education in the Anglican Communion. The group has focussed on developing "grids" which set out the appropriate educational and developmental targets which can be applied in the education of those in ministry in the life of the Church. We warmly commend the work which the group is doing, especially on the work which reminds us that the role of the bishop is to enable the theological education of the clergy and laity of the diocese. We also welcome the scheme that the group has developed for the distribution of basic theological texts to our theological colleges across the world, the preparations for the Anglican Way Consultation in Singapore in May this year, and the appointment of three Regional Associates to work with the group. The primates affirmed the work of the Group, and urged study and reception of its work in the life of the Communion.

The Hermeneutics Project

8. We agreed to proceed with a worldwide study of hermeneutics (the methods of interpreting scripture). The primates have joined the Joint Standing Committee in asking the Anglican Communion Office to develop options for carrying the study forward following the Lambeth Conference in 2008. A report will be presented to the Joint Standing Committee next year.

Following through the Windsor Report

9. Since the controversial events of 2003, we have faced the reality of increased tension in the life of the Anglican Communion - tension so deep that the fabric of our common life together has been torn. The Windsor Report of 2004 described the Communion as suffering from an "illness". This "illness" arises from a breakdown in the trust and mutual recognition of one another as faithful disciples of Christ, which should be among the first fruits of our Communion in Christ with one another.

10. The Windsor Report identified two threats to our common life: first, certain developments in the life and ministry of the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada which challenged the standard of teaching on human sexuality articulated in the 1998 Lambeth Resolution 1.10; and second, interventions in the life of those Provinces which arose as reactions to the urgent pastoral needs that certain primates perceived. The Windsor Report did not see a "moral equivalence" between these events, since the cross-boundary interventions arose from a deep concern for the welfare of Anglicans in the face of innovation. Nevertheless both innovation and intervention are central factors placing strains on our common life. The Windsor Report recognised this (TWR Section D) and invited the Instruments of Communion to call for a moratorium of such actions .

11. What has been quite clear throughout this period is that the 1998 Lambeth Resolution 1.10 is the standard of teaching which is presupposed in the Windsor Report and from which the primates have worked. This restates the traditional teaching of the Christian Church that "in view of the teaching of Scripture, [the Conference] upholds faithfulness in marriage between a man and a woman in lifelong union, and believes that abstinence is right for those who are not called to marriage", and applies this to several areas which are discussed further below. The primates have reaffirmed this teaching in all their recent meetings , and indicated how a change in the formal teaching of any one Province would indicate a departure from the standard upheld by the Communion as a whole.

12. At our last meeting in Dromantine, the primates called for certain actions to address the situation in our common life, and to address those challenges to the teaching of the Lambeth Resolution which had been raised by recent developments. Now in Dar es Salaam, we have had to give attention to the progress that has been made. The Listening Process

13. The 1998 Lambeth Resolution 1.10, committed the Provinces "to listen to the experience of homosexual persons" and called "all our people to minister pastorally and sensitively to all irrespective of sexual orientation and to condemn irrational fear of homosexuals". The initiation of this process of listening was requested formally by the primates at Dromantine and commissioned by ACC-13. We received a report from Canon Philip Groves, the Facilitator of the Listening Process, on the progress of his work. We wish to affirm this work in collating various research studies, statements and other material from the Provinces. We look forward to this material being made more fully available across the Communion for study and reflection, and to the preparation of material to assist the bishops at 2008 Lambeth Conference.

The Panel of Reference

14. We are grateful to the retired Primate of Australia, Archbishop Peter Carnley for being with us to update us on the work of the Archbishop of Canterbury's Panel of Reference. This was established by the Archbishop in response to the request of the primates at Dromantine "to supervise the adequacy of pastoral provisions made by any churches" for "groups in serious theological dispute with their diocesan bishop, or dioceses in dispute with their Provinces" . Archbishop Peter informed us of the careful work which this Panel undertakes on our behalf, although he pointed to the difficulty of the work with which it has been charged arising from the conflicted and polarised situations which the Panel must address on the basis of the slender resources which can be given to the work. We were grateful for his report, and for the work so far undertaken by the Panel.

The Anglican Covenant

15. Archbishop Drexel Gomez reported to us on the work of the Covenant Design Group. The Group met in Nassau last month, and has made substantial progress. We commend the Report of the Covenant Design Group for study and urge the Provinces to submit an initial response to the draft through the Anglican Communion Office by the end of 2007. In the meantime, we hope that the Anglican Communion Office will move in the near future to the publication of the minutes of the discussion that we have had, together with the minutes of the Joint Standing Committee's discussion, so that some of the ideas and reflection that have already begun to emerge might assist and stimulate reflection throughout the Communion.

16. The proposal is that a revised draft will be discussed at the Lambeth Conference, so that the bishops may offer further reflections and contributions. Following a further round of consultation, a final text will be presented to ACC-14, and then, if adopted as definitive, offered to the Provinces for ratification. The covenant process will conclude when any definitive text is adopted or rejected finally through the synodical processes of the Provinces.

The Episcopal Church

17. At the heart of our tensions is the belief that The Episcopal Church has departed from the standard of teaching on human sexuality accepted by the Communion in the 1998 Lambeth Resolution 1.10 by consenting to the episcopal election of a candidate living in a committed same-sex relationship, and by permitting Rites of Blessing for same-sex unions. The episcopal ministry of a person living in a same-sex relationship is not acceptable to the majority of the Communion.

18. In 2005 the primates asked The Episcopal Church to consider specific requests made by the Windsor Report . On the first day of our meeting, we were joined by the members of the Standing Committee of the Anglican Consultative Council as we considered the responses of the 75th General Convention. This is the first time that we have been joined by the Standing Committee at a primates' Meeting, and we welcome and commend the spirit of closer co-operation between the Instruments of Communion.

19. We are grateful for the comprehensive and clear report commissioned by the Joint Standing Committee. We heard from the Presiding Bishop and three other bishops representing different perspectives within The Episcopal Church. Each spoke passionately about their understanding of the problems which The Episcopal Church faces, and possible ways forward. Each of the four, in their own way, looked to the primates to assist The Episcopal Church. We are grateful to the Archbishop of Canterbury for enabling us on this occasion to hear directly this range of views.

20. We believe several factors must be faced together. First, the Episcopal Church has taken seriously the recommendations of the Windsor Report, and we express our gratitude for the consideration by the 75th General Convention.

21. However, secondly, we believe that there remains a lack of clarity about the stance of The Episcopal Church, especially its position on the authorisation of Rites of Blessing for persons living in same-sex unions. There appears to us to be an inconsistency between the position of General Convention and local pastoral provision. We recognise that the General Convention made no explicit resolution about such Rites and in fact declined to pursue resolutions which, if passed, could have led to the development and authorisation of them. However, we understand that local pastoral provision is made in some places for such blessings. It is the ambiguous stance of The Episcopal Church which causes concern among us.

22. The standard of teaching stated in Resolution 1.10 of the Lambeth Conference 1998 asserted that the Conference "cannot advise the legitimising or blessing of same sex unions". The primates stated in their pastoral letter of May 2003, "The Archbishop of Canterbury spoke for us all when he said that it is through liturgy that we express what we believe, and that there is no theological consensus about same sex unions. Therefore, we as a body cannot support the authorisation of such rites.".

23. Further, some of us believe that Resolution B033 of the 75th General Convention does not in fact give the assurances requested in the Windsor Report.

24. The response of The Episcopal Church to the requests made at Dromantine has not persuaded this meeting that we are yet in a position to recognise that The Episcopal Church has mended its broken relationships.

25. It is also clear that a significant number of bishops, clergy and lay people in The Episcopal Church are committed to the proposals of the Windsor Report and the standard of teaching presupposed in it (cf paragraph 11). These faithful people feel great pain at what they perceive to be the failure of The Episcopal Church to adopt the Windsor proposals in full. They desire to find a way to remain in faithful fellowship with the Anglican Communion. They believe that they should have the liberty to practice and live by that expression of Anglican faith which they believe to be true. We are deeply concerned that so great has been the estrangement between some of the faithful and The Episcopal Church that this has led to recrimination, hostility and even to disputes in the civil courts.

26. The interventions by some of our number and by bishops of some Provinces, against the explicit recommendations of the Windsor Report, however well-intentioned, have exacerbated this situation. Furthermore, those primates who have undertaken interventions do not feel that it is right to end those interventions until it becomes clear that sufficient provision has been made for the life of those persons.

27. A further complication is that a number of dioceses or their bishops have indicated, for a variety of reasons, that they are unable in conscience to accept the primacy of the Presiding Bishop in The Episcopal Church, and have requested the Archbishop of Canterbury and the primates to consider making provision for some sort of alternative primatial ministry. At the same time we recognise that the Presiding Bishop has been duly elected in accordance with the Constitution and Canons of The Episcopal Church, which must be respected.

28. These pastoral needs, together with the requests from those making presentations to this meeting, have moved us to consider how the primates might contribute to healing and reconciliation within The Episcopal Church and more broadly. We believe that it would be a tragedy if The Episcopal Church was to fracture, and we are committed to doing what we can to preserve and uphold its life. While we may support such processes, such change and development which is required must be generated within its own life.

The Future

29. We believe that the establishment of a Covenant for the Churches of the Anglican Communion in the longer term may lead to the trust required to re-establish our interdependent life. By making explicit what Anglicans mean by the "bonds of affection" and securing the commitment of each Province to those bonds, the structures of our common life can be articulated and enhanced.

30. However, an interim response is required in the period until the Covenant is secured. For there to be healing in the life of the Communion in the interim, it seems that the recommendations of the Windsor Report, as interpreted by the primates' Statement at Dromantine, are the most clear and comprehensive principles on which our common life may be re-established.

31. Three urgent needs exist. First, those of us who have lost trust in The Episcopal Church need to be re-assured that there is a genuine readiness in The Episcopal Church to embrace fully the recommendations of the Windsor Report.

32. Second, those of us who have intervened in other jurisdictions believe that we cannot abandon those who have appealed to us for pastoral care in situations in which they find themselves at odds with the normal jurisdiction. For interventions to cease, what is required in their view is a robust scheme of pastoral oversight to provide individuals and congregations alienated from The Episcopal Church with adequate space to flourish within the life of that church in the period leading up to the conclusion of the Covenant Process.

33. Third, the Presiding Bishop has reminded us that in The Episcopal Church there are those who have lost trust in the primates and bishops of certain of our Provinces because they fear that they are all too ready to undermine or subvert the polity of The Episcopal Church. In their view, there is an urgent need to embrace the recommendations of the Windsor Report and to bring an end to all interventions.

34. Those who have intervened believe it would be inappropriate to bring an end to interventions until there is change in The Episcopal Church. Many in the House of Bishops are unlikely to commit themselves to further requests for clarity from the primates unless they believe that actions that they perceive to undermine the polity of The Episcopal Church will be brought to an end. Through our discussions, the primates have become convinced that pastoral strategies are required to address these three urgent needs simultaneously.

35. Our discussions have drawn us into a much more detailed response than we would have thought necessary at the beginning of our meeting. But such is the imperative laid on us to seek reconciliation in the Church of Christ, that we have been emboldened to offer a number of recommendations. We have set these out in a Schedule to this statement. We offer them to the wider Communion, and in particular to the House of Bishops of The Episcopal Church in the hope that they will enable us to find a way forward together for the period leading up to the conclusion of the Covenant Process. We also hope that the provisions of this pastoral scheme will mean that no further interventions will be necessary since bishops within The Episcopal Church will themselves provide the extended episcopal ministry required.

Wider Application

36. The primates recognise that such pastoral needs as those considered here are not limited to The Episcopal Church alone. Nor do such pastoral needs arise only in relation to issues of human sexuality. The primates believe that until a covenant for the Anglican Communion is secured, it may be appropriate for the Instruments of Communion to request the use of this or a similar scheme in other contexts should urgent pastoral needs arise.

Conclusion

37. Throughout this meeting, the primates have worked and prayed for the healing and unity of the Anglican Communion. We also pray that the Anglican Communion may be renewed in its discipleship and mission in proclaiming the Gospel. We recognise that we have been wrestling with demanding and difficult issues and we commend the results of our deliberations to the prayers of the people. We do not underestimate the difficulties and heart-searching that our proposals will cause, but we believe that commitment to the ways forward which we propose can bring healing and reconciliation across the Communion.

END

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Poster Thread
Causidicus
Posted: 2007/2/19 20:19  Updated: 2007/2/19 20:26
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/3
From:
Posts: 1065
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Please sir, oh please sir, may I see the paragraph 35 secret schedule sir? Is it being kept with the secret plan to fix social security in Mr. Gore's lock box? Perhaps it is being held with the secret plan to end the war in Iraq?

Maybe its just a schedule c.

All in all, though, this is quite surprising given the rest of the events in Dar es Salaam.

Causidicus
bjoyfull
Posted: 2007/2/19 20:23  Updated: 2007/2/19 20:30
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2006/3/29
From:
Posts: 80
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
So much fudge. I think I'm becoming diabetic. KJS now rides on in majesty. Discipline my butt! Nothing has changed. My initial reaction stands...this is just more of the same ol' same ol'. It does indeed end with a whimper. I'm not waiting around for another round of Anglicans Gone Wild. Our lives are finite, not like this hideous play called the Anglican Experiment. I'll be 103 before this horse fertilizer is hashed out.
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/19 20:24  Updated: 2007/2/19 20:24
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 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
"16. The proposal is that a revised draft will be discussed at the Lambeth Conference, so that the bishops may offer further reflections and contributions. Following a further round of consultation, a final text will be presented to ACC-14, and then, if adopted as definitive, offered to the Provinces for ratification. The covenant process will conclude when any definitive text is adopted or rejected finally through the synodical processes of the Provinces."

Anybody care to take a stab at when this process might actually produce a standard with teeth?

lh
ejsteele
Posted: 2007/2/19 20:25  Updated: 2007/2/19 20:25
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Posts: 347
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Please excuse my ignorance, but did I miss something? I really don't see any proposals aside from "we will continue this at Lambeth". There is a long re-hashing of the same arguments we have all heard, but not a single conclusion that I can see.

The time has come for reformation within Anglicanism.

+Ed
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/19 20:26  Updated: 2007/2/19 20:26
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Posts: 354
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Did ++Akinola sign on to this thing?

lh
ejsteele
Posted: 2007/2/19 20:28  Updated: 2007/2/19 20:28
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 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Lionheart,

I wondered the same thing. It will be interesting to see if ++Akinola issues a separate release within the next couple of hours.

+Ed
Causidicus
Posted: 2007/2/19 20:29  Updated: 2007/2/19 20:29
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From:
Posts: 1065
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
lh wrote: Anybody care to take a stab at when this process might actually produce a standard with teeth?

How can I? I haven't even seen the secret schedule yet. It will probably take a special decoder ring from a box of cracker jacks to decipher it anyway.

C
Zechariah
Posted: 2007/2/19 20:29  Updated: 2007/2/19 20:29
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2007/1/23
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 40
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
A lot of us were too optimistic. I wish they had been far less forgiving towards the heresy of TEC.

And where's the schedule?

Soldier of Christ,
Zechariah
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/2/19 20:32  Updated: 2007/2/19 20:32
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 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
This is utter bullsh*t. You know what? The Pope can have "Anglicanism" -- or at least what passes for it today -- back. There is nothing in this so-called religion for me, not being queer, Lesbian, effeminate or wishy-washy.
frjude
Posted: 2007/2/19 20:36  Updated: 2007/2/19 20:36
Home away from home
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From: Heartland
Posts: 277
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Quote:
20.... First, the Episcopal Church has taken seriously the recommendations of the Windsor Report, and we express our gratitude for the consideration by the 75th General Convention.


This is complete and utter C-R-A-P. Sorry, but that is what this is.
Sinner
Posted: 2007/2/19 20:47  Updated: 2007/2/19 20:47
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 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
the schedule says that unless ECUSA stops blessing gays and confirms it will never consecrate another gay bishop by september 2007

the it is thrown out of the communion

until that date, ECUSA must allow all Christians to organise a parallel province that stays (nominally) inside ECUSA - with Bob Duncan as its primate.


ALSO similar provisions for separate strucures must be made in the CoE; Australia; NZ etc.

THE REALIGNMENT HAS BEGUN!!!
Jansson
Posted: 2007/2/19 20:49  Updated: 2007/2/19 20:49
Just popping in
Joined: 2007/2/15
From: UK
Posts: 4
 "same-sex relationships"
This may seem an extremely minor point, but it's actually profoundly revealing that paragraph 17 uses the term "same-sex relationships" to suggest relationships in which people engage in acts of homosexual sex.

"The episcopal ministry of a person living in a same-sex relationship is not acceptable to the majority of the Communion."

What horrid, nullifying, ruinous vocabulary. Do we not all have same-sex relationships? Fathers and sons? Brothers? Friends? Colleagues at work? Primates?

That even the Primates have not noticed their adoption of the vocabulary of hyper-sexualised post-modern life is grotesque. It points to the revisionists' sickening failure of faith and perspective, and also the unseen failures among too many who seek to uphold orthodox teaching.

It is also the revenge of too-polite Anglicanism. This document should be frank, not dainty. If paragraph 17 had said that most members of the Communion still know that bishops shouldn't engage in acts of gay or lesbian sex, then it would concentrate minds on what the others think -- which is that it sounds actually like good fun and maybe even the basis of jolly family life.

And then more of us would grasp just how much blood loss this Body of Christ has experienced and is experiencing.

Alas, they know not what they do.... No, in this case they know very well what they do -- but they hide behind a sickened vocabulary.
daveball
Posted: 2007/2/19 20:51  Updated: 2007/2/19 20:51
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/12/18
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2281
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Causidicus,

I used my "Sky King" decoder ring and it gives the completion date as "Star Date 3572.891." I suppose that's more than a couple Lambeths from now.
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/19 20:53  Updated: 2007/2/19 20:53
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 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
sinner,

Where did you get access to the schedule?

lh
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/19 21:00  Updated: 2007/2/19 21:05
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 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Nevermind, I found it.


"On Clarifying the Response to Windsor

The Primates recognise the seriousness with which The Episcopal Church addressed the requests of the Windsor Report put to it by the Primates at their Dromantine Meeting. They value and accept the apology and the request for forgiveness made [4]. While they appreciate the actions of the 75th General Convention which offer some affirmation of the Windsor Report and its recommendations, they deeply regret a lack of clarity about certain of those responses.

In particular, the Primates request, through the Presiding Bishop, that the House of Bishops of The Episcopal Church
1. make an unequivocal common covenant that the bishops will not authorise any Rite of Blessing for same-sex unions in their dioceses or through General Convention (cf TWR, §143, 144); and
2. confirm that the passing of Resolution B033 of the 75th General Convention means that a candidate for episcopal orders living in a same-sex union shall not receive the necessary consent (cf TWR, §134);
unless some new consensus on these matters emerges across the Communion (cf TWR, §134).

The Primates request that the answer of the House of Bishops is conveyed to the Primates by the Presiding Bishop by 30th September 2007.
If the reassurances requested of the House of Bishops cannot in good conscience be given, the relationship between The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion as a whole remains damaged at best, and this has consequences for the full participation of the Church in the life of the Communion."

Make of that what you will.

lh

http://www.anglicancommunion.org/acns/articles/42/50/acns4253.cfm
Pirate
Posted: 2007/2/19 21:06  Updated: 2007/2/19 21:06
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2004/3/19
From: Diocese of Atlanta
Posts: 115
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Joe and I are in agreement. Are we the only ones who can spot bullsh*t when we see it? Or are we the only ones willing to call a spade a spade?

It seems that our "friends" in the Global South have vanished and left us holding the bag, so to speak. (A bag of bullsh*t, as it were.) As far as I am concerned, there is very little left to fight for. By the time all this mess is sorted out I'll probably be too old to care anyway.

It looks like my church home has just burned to the ground. I best refocus my energy and get about rebuilding somewhere else.
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/19 21:11  Updated: 2007/2/19 21:11
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Joined: 2005/10/19
From:
Posts: 354
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
I do not take the above as automatic excommunication. I think if you actually read the operative language closely,

"remains damaged at best, and this has consequences for the full participation of the Church in the life of the Communion."

it could easily and reasonably be construed to mean that if TEC fails to give the requested assurances, the relationship with the rest of the communion remains as it is - - i.e., damaged - - and we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
daveball
Posted: 2007/2/19 21:15  Updated: 2007/2/19 21:15
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/12/18
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2281
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Lionheart,

My translation of this:

"We were not super happy with your wishy washy weasel worded response before, we really aren't happy now and we probably won't be a lot happier in the future but we don't have the guts to take a stand of any sort."

"However, we wouln't be happy if we didn't leave you a big out on this one so here it is. If some 'consensus across the communiopn' should emerge that queer stuff is OK, then you're home free. We'll argrue about that for decades so you have at least that long to stay behind each other"
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/19 21:19  Updated: 2007/2/19 21:19
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Joined: 2005/10/19
From:
Posts: 354
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
daveball,

Sounds like you have a pretty good command of Anglicanese!

lh
PRISCA
Posted: 2007/2/19 21:20  Updated: 2007/2/19 21:33
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/8/3
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 269
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
I believe this to be the material we all need to see:--

The Key Recommendations of the Primates

Foundations

The Primates recognise the urgency of the current situation and therefore emphasise the need to:

affirm the Windsor Report (TWR) and the standard of teaching commanding respect across the Communion (most recently expressed in Resolution 1.10 of the 1998 Lambeth Conference);
set in place a Covenant for the Anglican Communion;
encourage healing and reconciliation within The Episcopal Church, between The Episcopal Church and congregations alienated from it, and between The Episcopal Church and the rest of the Anglican Communion;
respect the proper constitutional autonomy of all of the Churches of the Anglican Communion, while upholding the interdependent life and mutual responsibility of the Churches, and the responsibility of each to the Communion as a whole;
respond pastorally and provide for those groups alienated by recent developments in the Episcopal Church.

In order to address these foundations and apply them in the difficult situation which arises at present in The Episcopal Church, we recommend the following actions. The scheme proposed and the undertakings requested are intended to have force until the conclusion of the Covenant Process and a definitive statement of the position of The Episcopal Church with respect to the Covenant and its place within the life of the Communion, when some new provision may be required.

A Pastoral Council

The Primates will establish a Pastoral Council to act on behalf of the Primates in consultation with The Episcopal Church. This Council shall consist of up to five members: two nominated by the Primates, two by the Presiding Bishop, and a Primate of a Province of the Anglican Communion nominated by the Archbishop of Canterbury to chair the Council.
The Council will work in co-operation with The Episcopal Church, the Presiding Bishop and the leadership of the bishops participating in the scheme proposed below to negotiate the necessary structures for pastoral care which would meet the requests of the Windsor Report (TWR, §147–155) and the Primates’ requests in the Lambeth Statement of October 2003 [1];
authorise protocols for the functioning of such a scheme, including the criteria for participation of bishops, dioceses and congregations in the scheme;
assure the effectiveness of the structures for pastoral care;
o liaise with those other primates of the Anglican Communion who currently have care of parishes to seek a secure way forward for those parishes within the scheme;
facilitate and encourage healing and reconciliation within The Episcopal Church, between The Episcopal Church and congregations alienated from it, and between The Episcopal Church and the rest of the Anglican Communion (TWR, §156);
advise the Presiding Bishop and the Instruments of Communion;
monitor the response of The Episcopal Church to the Windsor Report;
consider whether any of the courses of action contemplated by the Windsor Report §157 should be applied to the life of The Episcopal Church or its bishops, and, if appropriate, to recommend such action to The Episcopal Church and its institutions and to the Instruments of Communion;
take whatever reasonable action is needed to give effect to this scheme
and report to the Primates.

A Pastoral Scheme

We recognise that there are individuals, congregations and clergy, who in the current situation, feel unable to accept the direct ministry of their bishop or of the Presiding Bishop, and some of whom have sought the oversight of other jurisdictions.
We have received representations from a number of bishops of The Episcopal Church who have expressed a commitment to a number of principles set out in two recent letters[2] . We recognise that these bishops are taking those actions which they believe necessary to sustain full communion with the Anglican Communion.
We acknowledge and welcome the initiative of the Presiding Bishop to consent to appoint a Primatial Vicar.
On this basis, the Primates recommend that structures for pastoral care be established in conjunction with the Pastoral Council, to enable such individuals, congregations and clergy to exercise their ministries and congregational life within The Episcopal Church, and that

the Pastoral Council and the Presiding Bishop invite the bishops expressing a commitment to “the Camp Allen principles” [3], or as otherwise determined by the Pastoral Council, to participate in the pastoral scheme ;
in consultation with the Council and with the consent of the Presiding Bishop, those bishops who are part of the scheme will nominate a Primatial Vicar, who shall be responsible to the Council;
the Presiding Bishop in consultation with the Pastoral Council will delegate specific powers and duties to the Primatial Vicar.
Once this scheme of pastoral care is recognised to be fully operational, the Primates undertake to end all interventions. Congregations or parishes in current arrangements will negotiate their place within the structures of pastoral oversight set out above.

We believe that such a scheme is robust enough to function and provide sufficient space for those who are unable to accept the direct ministry of their bishop or the Presiding Bishop to have a secure place within The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion until such time as the Covenant Process is complete. At that time, other provisions may become necessary.

Although there are particular difficulties associated with AMiA and CANA, the Pastoral Council should negotiate with them and the Primates currently ministering to them to find a place for them within these provisions. We believe that with goodwill this may be possible.

On Clarifying the Response to Windsor

The Primates recognise the seriousness with which The Episcopal Church addressed the requests of the Windsor Report put to it by the Primates at their Dromantine Meeting. They value and accept the apology and the request for forgiveness made [4]. While they appreciate the actions of the 75th General Convention which offer some affirmation of the Windsor Report and its recommendations, they deeply regret a lack of clarity about certain of those responses.

In particular, the Primates request, through the Presiding Bishop, that the House of Bishops of The Episcopal Church
1. make an unequivocal common covenant that the bishops will not authorise any Rite of Blessing for same-sex unions in their dioceses or through General Convention (cf TWR, §143, 144); and
2. confirm that the passing of Resolution B033 of the 75th General Convention means that a candidate for episcopal orders living in a same-sex union shall not receive the necessary consent (cf TWR, §134);
unless some new consensus on these matters emerges across the Communion (cf TWR, §134).

The Primates request that the answer of the House of Bishops is conveyed to the Primates by the Presiding Bishop by 30th September 2007.
If the reassurances requested of the House of Bishops cannot in good conscience be given, the relationship between The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion as a whole remains damaged at best, and this has consequences for the full participation of the Church in the life of the Communion.

On property disputes

The Primates urge the representatives of The Episcopal Church and of those congregations in property disputes with it to suspend all actions in law arising in this situation. We also urge both parties to give assurances that no steps will be taken to alienate property from The Episcopal Church without its consent or to deny the use of that property to those congregations.

Source: http://www.anglicancommunion.org/acns/articles/39/00/acns3948.cfm


I apologise that this lacks all special formatting.

I am personally sad to see that my own Diocese and our plight as conservatives does not get a mention.
Brize
Posted: 2007/2/19 21:32  Updated: 2007/2/19 21:32
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2006/11/9
From:
Posts: 21
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
In short, more mush from the wimps.
bjoyfull
Posted: 2007/2/19 21:33  Updated: 2007/2/19 21:39
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2006/3/29
From:
Posts: 80
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
I am so angry with myself right now. I feel like a Trekkie that has hung on every parsed word about some seismic decisive event that that is always just beyond reach. We have been rope-a-doped. Don’t you see, there isn’t any intention to ever do anything decisive now? Decision and punishment is always pushed down the tracks further and further away. Now it’s September. In September it’s going to be next March. Next March it’s going to be November and so it goes into eternity. I have wasted several years sitting in front of this damn computer hoping to actually see the realization of orthodox vindication but none cometh. And it’s not only not likely but it “ain’t" going to happen folks.
I should have been using this time to find another spiritual home.
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/19 21:37  Updated: 2007/2/19 21:39
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/19
From:
Posts: 354
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
PRISCA,

I posted part of this above, the part centering around the deadline. I'm not impressed with the language used and can't really say it's much of a deadline. The Pastoral stuff is interesting, but it has two from the Primates (maybe that will be one orthodox and one revisionist) two from the PB (any guesses as to the character of them?) and a chairman Primate appointed by the AB of C (again, any guesses as to that one's character?).

In short, I don't see glowing hope in this puppy.

bjoyfull: yep, that about sums it up.

lh
TENTEX
Posted: 2007/2/19 21:43  Updated: 2007/2/19 21:43
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/1/25
From: Murfreesboro, TN St. Patrick's (CANA)
Posts: 240
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
These wimps can go Windsor Report themselves to death.
PRISCA
Posted: 2007/2/19 21:50  Updated: 2007/2/19 21:50
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/8/3
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 269
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
lh:

Depending on the way it is implemented, this scheme may be the mechanism whereby realignment in the USA branch will gather steam. Myself, though it is not my church, and I have not endured your pain, except of course when trying to worship south of the Line, I still pray for repentance in the ECUSA leadership. The Lord desireth NOT the excommunication of a bad bishop, but rather that he may turn from his wickedness and be reinstated! Realignment of hearts is the best solution of all.
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/19 22:02  Updated: 2007/2/19 22:03
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/19
From:
Posts: 354
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
PRISCA,

Excommunication and death are two separate things, I wouldn't confuse them as you do. Does not a "bad bishop" deserve excommunication? I don't mean simply in the punitive sense or in protection of the faith, but in the gracious sense. If I err and proclaim heresy or apostasy, is it not a service of kindness to me to warn me and then exclude me from the altar? Do I not deserve that correction in order to alert my errant soul from slumber? I may persist even if excommunicated, but it may be just the thing I need as well. Otherwise, I am indulged in my error and the church is not doing its job.

lh
Theophilos
Posted: 2007/2/19 22:06  Updated: 2007/2/19 22:06
Just can't stay away
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From:
Posts: 91
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Folks, the game is over. Is time to move on.
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/19 22:07  Updated: 2007/2/19 22:07
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From:
Posts: 354
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Bear in mind, the time for decisive action was many, many moons ago. This is far too late an attempt at correction to be taken seriously in the first place. Moreover, it just draws things out further, with no end in sight. The longer people hang on, the longer they have to endure this procrastination. The revisionists know that the "orthodox" cannot be placated outright so their strategy is to keep some glimmer of hope alive and put off anything of substance - - forever.

lh
Climacus
Posted: 2007/2/19 22:29  Updated: 2007/2/19 22:29
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2007/2/19
From: Boston
Posts: 85
 Scripture and Separation
Many of us here are familiar with the Biblical injunctions against homosexuality, and take them seriously. However, may I also remind you of the many Biblical commands to separate from false teachers, such as 2 John 9-11 and Romans 16:17-18?

If you take the Bible at all seriously, please separate yourself from the Anglican church, especially in Canada and the US. You have one life to live before God. Please be faithful to him, and join yourself to a gospel-preaching, Bible believing church. I know many people would rather try to 'reform' the Anglican communion, but I see no precedent in the N.T. for the concept of reform, but everwhere see the command to separate. Nor do I see any evidence that efforts to reform the church actually work, given the history of the Anglican church. Rather, put Christ first, and separate, for your own good, and for his name's sake!
VESTRY
Posted: 2007/2/19 22:42  Updated: 2007/2/19 22:42
Just popping in
Joined: 2007/2/19
From:
Posts: 1
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Dr. Ruin Williams has exschoriated the Anglican Communion. Pardon me, excoriated, is the correct spelling. To rub raw as in strip to the bone.
HowieG
Posted: 2007/2/19 23:43  Updated: 2007/2/19 23:43
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/1
From: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 231
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
<<25.... We are deeply concerned that so great has been the estrangement between some of the faithful and The Episcopal Church that this has led to recrimination, hostility and even to disputes in the civil courts.>>

There is more to this communique that is omitted in this report. (WHY???)

The PB, and other TEc (Cult) bishops who are suing everyone who disagrees with them where asked to stop the law suits. Does anyone actually believe that the power hungry so-called TEc (Cult) leadership will stop their attacks on the conservative Clergy and Parishes??? If so, there is some nice swampland in the Everglades that you might also be interested in.

H
FrSam+
Posted: 2007/2/20 0:05  Updated: 2007/2/20 0:05
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/7/15
From:
Posts: 555
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Okay, I think the time has come.

I told you.

Second Province. TEC kicked out. Blah blah.

Didn't happen.

Couldn't happen.

Won't happen.

Tanzania was the flop that many thought it would be. And where do the orthodox in TEC stand tonight?

The same place they stood in 2003 when V. Gene was counted among their bishops.

This is sad.

The good news is....the Continuing Churches are here if you need us.

Pax, Sam +

www.united-episcopal.org
lapittengr
Posted: 2007/2/20 0:30  Updated: 2007/2/20 0:30
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Posts: 195
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Parsing the Communique re TEC—A SYNOPSIS

9-12 Summary of Leadup to Windsor

Response to Windsor so far
13. A report on whining pro-homosexual-activity lobbiests is forthcoming.
14. The Panel of Reference has done nothing
15-16. The Covenent is in progress, and will take several more years of revision before being ready for examination by member churches.

On the Episcopal church
17. “The majority of the Communion” believes TEC’s homoerotic bishops are a problem.
20. “Episcopal Church has taken seriously the recommendations of the Windsor Report” [*cough*b------t*cough*]
21. “we believe that there remains a lack of clarity about the stance of The Episcopal Church” [Lack of clarity? Its contempt for Windsor seems pretty clear, actually.]
23-4. “some of us believe” TEC hasn’t backed away from its revisionism yet. [Do the others not believe this or simply think it’s a good thing that it hasn’t?]
25. Windsor-complient folk in TEC are being oppressed
26. Interventions by foreign primates have “exacerbated this situation” but they don’t intend to stop while the persecutions continue.
27. Some TEC dioceses have problems with Dr. Schori but “we recognise that the Presiding Bishop has been duly elected.”
28. We can’t do anything to help these folk in TEC—“such change and development which is required must be generated within its own life”

The Future
29. We need a Covenant to explain what “bonds of affection” means.
30. In the interim, gosh, it’d sure be nice if people obeyed Windsor.
31. TEC really ought to get about to obeying Windsor
32. Until then, jurisdictional oversight will continue to be offered
33. Even though the revisionists in TEC are honked off at this
34. Those who are intervening won’t stop until Windsor is embraced; those who are refusing to embrace Windsor won’t budge until primatial intervention stops. IMPASSE
35. The “Schedule” is the proposed solution to this impasse being recommended to the primates.

:
:

The Schedule

Goals
* affirm Windsor
* create a Covenant
* re-unite TEC and reconcile TEC with the rest of the Communion
* uphold autonomy and (pardoxically) interdependence
* be pastoral to those being persecuted in TEC

Pastoral Council
* Membership: 2 elected by primates (primates are mixed ortho- & hetero- dox), 2 elected by KJS (apostate), 1 primate elected by ABC (ambiguously heterodox)
* This council will work with KJS and other TEC bishops—but basically just “monitor” and “report” and “discuss” and not really do anything.

Pastoral Response—i.e. a “New DEPO” process to go about surrendering the “Global South” parishes back to TEC.
* The council (mentioned above) takes petitions from bishops who want to participate
* The bishops will nominate a Primatal Vicar to provide alternate primatal oversight, but only “with the consent of the Presiding Bishop"
* And KJS will determine what powers that Primatal Vicar shall have. ("the Presiding Bishop in consultation with the Pastoral Council will delegate specific powers and duties to the Primatial Vicar")

Once this is done, The Global South parishes will be returned to Episcopal Church oversight, under this Primatal Vicar. ("Once this scheme of pastoral care is recognised to be fully operational, the primates undertake to end all interventions. Congregations or parishes in current arrangements will negotiate their place within the structures of pastoral oversight set out above.")

This will be the new ‘status quo’ until the Covenant is put forth.

:

The primates also want a clearer affirmation of Windsor within 7 months or “the relationship between The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion as a whole [will remain] damaged at best”

The primates would really like everyone also to stop suing each other. Please?

:
:

Analysis to follow.

pax,
LP
lapittengr
Posted: 2007/2/20 0:43  Updated: 2007/2/20 0:43
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/21
From:
Posts: 195
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
The Communique—Analysis
== or ==
DEATH OF THE GLOBAL SOUTH PARISHES

The Communique says a number of forceful things about how PECUSA hasn’t really (according to some primates anyway) really lived up to Windsor or made adequate signs of repentence. This is stating the obvious.

Indeed, the Communique does a lot of stating of the obvious and rehashing the past or making sweeping generalizations about everyone’s opinions. It gives TEC yet another deadline to adequately respond to Windsor… but the only penalty for failure is that the relationship with the A.C. will “remain damaged”. Big whoop.

As to the situation itself, the Commuique says there’s an impasse: the revisionists/apostates won’t budge further on Windsor until primatal jurisdiction ceases; primatal intervention won’t cease until they think Windsor is being more truly embraced.

And so the primates have brokered a deal by which they surrender the Global South parishes back to the Episcopal Church, in the hopes that then TEC might reconsider living up to Windsor.

:

The “meat” of it, for those ‘stuck’ in TEC, is that proposed way forward. And, once you cut out the rhetoric and remove the statements of “opinion” and so forth, to look at what these parishes are being given up for, it’s pretty bleak.

* First, alternate primatal oversight will be offered by a “Primatal Vicar” who is acceptable to KJS.

* Secondly, the powers of that Primatal Vicar will be determined by KJS.

* Third, the primates’ “representative” in all this will be a Council of Five, working as a partner with KJS.

* Fourth, that Council of five will have 40% of its membership picked by KJS, another 40% will be compromise candidates who can be agreed upon by the primates as a whole, and the remaining member a primate picked by the ABC (who will pick another compromise candidate).

:
:

The upshot is that, for the next however many years (perhaps a decade?) it takes to get a Covenant drafted, reviewed, revised, represented, sent to national churches, sent back for revsion, re-revised, re-reviewed, voted on, this will be the situation:

The primates are going to SURRENDER the Global South parishes back to TEc, to be under this KJS-stand-in “Primatal Vicar”, in order to try to encourage the revisionists (once the “primatal intervention” has thus ceased) to re-consider taking Windsor more seriously (yeah, right).

This Primatal Vicar has to be someone acceptable to KJS, and will have only those powers which she gives the vicar. And the Primatal Council advising her will consist of 2 KJS-picked cronies and 3 compromise candidates.

And, meanwhile, TEC policy—which confirms VGR but refuses consent to Fr. Lawrence; which will wait until the more conservative bishops retire and replace them with liberal ones; which continues to crank out apostates and theological non-entities from its corrupt seminaries—will continue unabated.

:

So, despite the “forceful” language used in describing some of the realities of the current situations, at that point where the Communique has any actual practical effect, I judge that, IMHO
it represents a TOTAL DEFEAT for “traditionalists".

I hope I’m wrong.

I fear I’m not.

pax,
LP
lionheart
Posted: 2007/2/20 0:55  Updated: 2007/2/20 0:55
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/19
From:
Posts: 354
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
It is difficult for any person to admit he is wrong, especially if it was in having faith in a once venerable institution. Perhaps there is hope for a solution next September, perhaps at Lambeth '08, perhaps after revisions to the proposed Covenant are offered, perhaps during the subsequent process of ratifications by the Provinces. Perhaps.

Perhaps those still in TEC should trust their bishops to do the right thing, perhaps they should trust their priests. Perhaps.

But TEC will not answer for you in the end. Nor will your bishop. Nor will your priest. Only you. Who in this life knows how long he has on this earth?

To those resigned to staying, may God bless you. You'll need it.

If not now, when?

lh
leader1111
Posted: 2007/2/20 1:35  Updated: 2007/2/20 1:35
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/6/19
From: Hobe Sound, Florida
Posts: 233
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Anyone who thinks this wasn't a total defeat for traditionalists needs their head examined. The net result is that if you remain in the Anglican Communion you are now considerably worse off then you were a fortnight ago. TEC has won the return of the Anglicans (Jews) to the concentration camps for final extermination. The UN should be called for this genocide.
The document states that the only way you can escape is to leave the Anglican Church.
Thank God for the Continuing Churches.
boggy
Posted: 2007/2/20 11:42  Updated: 2007/2/20 11:42
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From:
Posts: 167
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
They were gutless. It has always been about the money, not God.
Pirate
Posted: 2007/2/20 12:23  Updated: 2007/2/20 12:23
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2004/3/19
From: Diocese of Atlanta
Posts: 115
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
After having read the posts since yesterday afternoon, I have not changed my initial analysis of the primates communique-- it's all bullsh*t. There no longer exists a place in the Anglican Communion for orthodox Christians. Akinola, Duncan, et al. have shown that, contrary to what they have portrayed in the past, when the fat hits the fire, they don't have the balls to effect a change. They have exhibited a total lack of leadership by deserting their followers. They have run off the battlefield leaving the troops to be slaughtered. I commend to your reading 2 John 9-11 and Romans 16:17-18 posted previously.
ZachD
Posted: 2007/2/20 17:24  Updated: 2007/2/20 17:24
Home away from home
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From:
Posts: 1782
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
"So much fudge. I think I'm becoming diabetic."
___________________________________________

Wrong kinda fudge, I'm afraid, bejoyfull!
(Just starting to wade through this thread . . .)

Blessings, all,
DavidJacks
Posted: 2007/2/20 17:38  Updated: 2007/2/20 17:38
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2005/4/23
From: Upper Toadtown, California
Posts: 100
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
Inasmuch as I have not been a member of TEC, PECUSA,or any of that for some years now I have lurked here occaisionally and a certain morbid curiosity has compelled me to observe the dealings within the so called "Anglican Communion" and this new "TEC", as it calls itself.

It is interesting to see that so many posters are finally fed up with all the malarky. I do appreciate that these changes are hard, especially for those who had some hope; and I do applaud those who are finally able to leave this sad situation and wish the best for all for the future.

The truly incredibile thing is that anyone could stay with TEC who reads the Bible and reads the thoughts of this Ms. Schori! In Old Testament times would she not be stoned with stones?

Regards;

David Jackson
gregory
Posted: 2007/2/20 17:51  Updated: 2007/2/20 17:52
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/8/4
From: Nflorida
Posts: 4423
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
LP, Thank you for helping me see in the dark.

i believe you have brought the secrets of
this Communique' into the Light.



Will make for a less challenging Lent...

h' g
ZachD
Posted: 2007/2/20 20:46  Updated: 2007/2/20 20:46
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/11/10
From:
Posts: 1782
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
I'm glad that you qualified that last statement, David Jackson!




Hemp might help!
sfbigelow
Posted: 2007/2/20 21:46  Updated: 2007/2/20 21:46
Just popping in
Joined: 2006/2/1
From: Jacksonville Florida
Posts: 20
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
The fat lady has sung???
Now the Fish Lady is on the main governing body and the ANGLICAN church. She does not even believe in JESUS CHRIST. How can she be on a governing body that supposedly believes Jesus is THE way.

To the fish lady he is one of many ways.

What happened to the southern cone?????????

Lord and savior please show us the wayThe fat lady has sung???
Leonard
Posted: 2007/2/21 9:42  Updated: 2007/2/21 9:42
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2004/11/2
From: Denver
Posts: 141
 Re: DAR2007: The Communiqué Of the Primates' Meeting in
I must have missed something while working on my beer and brats for my tailgater: Are the fireworks over? Where's "Rocky Balboa"? Did he make his appearance yet?

Did I miss something............?
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