"The Covenant is a four-page document which summarises [sic] Anglican doctrine and makes clear that provinces that overstep the mark in future will be excluded until they 're-establish their covenant relationship'".

That means that all we Faithful have to do is WAIT and then everything will be O.K., right? Oh sure, I do not mind waiting.

NOT!

If this is what Anglicanism is, the homosexuals and bull-dykes can have it.

Joe of the Mountain, off to the hills to ponder what to do.

Well, that's it then. As I read the process contemplated it will stretch out well past Lambeth '08. There is a process for revision of the Covenant contemplated as well as a process of ratification by all the Provinces. It may never materialize in force. It certainly will not materialize for at least several years.

If ++Akinola signed on to this and actually intends to await this process, he is not the man I thought he was and a profound disappointment.

lh

Joe,

I, too, feel like I need to head for the hills. It is really pathetic that this is the best thirty whatever "leaders" of the communion can do. What they are saying is that either they agree with Schori or don't have the guts to say they don't in some meaningful way. Guess that pretty well slams the door here.

Off to find a continuing church. Open for directions.

Lord in your mercy..

Lionheart,

Akinola's voice was nowhere to be heard. Skipping Eucharist isn't exactly "give me liberty or give me death" stuff.

The Africans seem all smoke and no fire from what is observable at the moment. Most disappointing.

cennydd, cennydd, wherefore art thou?!,

Do you see now why I was also dismissive of the Anglican Communion, not just TEC?

lh

Dave, I too must agree with JotM. And I must say the entire "Freak Fest" spectacle of ECUSA prancing its way to "respectability" has left a bitter gall that will be hard to eliminate.

Almighty God, have mercy on us sinners.
Joe

daveball,

I hope bp_steele is right and that there might be some definitive statement forthcoming from ++Akinola. Failing that, I think the fat lady has sung - - and TEC called the tune.

lh

I will await word from +Duncan and my own Bishop, +John-David Schofield. Meanwhile, I grab my Prayer Book and Advil.

Bishop Duncan has scheduled a meeting with his clergy (and presumably anyone else who wants to attend) for Saturday. Let's see what leaks out between now and then.

Lionheart,

I pray I am completely wrong and that ++Akinola and the GS gang surprise us all with some sort of Godly proposal that shows incredible Christ like leadership and vision. Events so far do not portend well for that, however.

The gravity challenged lady can be heard warming up in the background.

Never fear, Lionheart....I'm here!

I, at least, am willing to give this thing a chance. I want to see how this will pan out before my wife and I make a decision....and even if we DO decide to leave, I guarantee you it will take a tremendous amount of soul-searching because of the diocese we live in, which is, as I'm sure you know, on the outs with ++Schori and TEC.

Patience is a virtue here.

Peace!

Cennydd

P.S.: I strongly advise everyone to thoroughly read and digest the Primates' Meeting Communique! Make sure you understand it before commenting on it.

What wimps! This is totally pathetic. All sound and no fury. Talk, talk, talk, like a group of old women gossiping away the afternoon.

Read it thoroughly, GiniO!

Cennydd

Cancel

For those who don't know where to see it all with the schedule:

http://www.anglicancommunion.org/acns/articles/42/50/acns4253.cfm

I'm not as encouraged as some by the September deadline. I don't see that it has teeth. It seems to just put off any action until that point without specifying any automatic response or what that response would be.

lh

Yeah, that's my assessment, too. We'll just have to wait and see.

Cennydd

"We'll just have to wait and see."

Have you ever heard of women, beaten by their husbands, who just can't bring themselves to leave, regardless of what he does. They just keep hoping that somehow, someway, he'll change and everything will be just peachy keen. Hope springs eternal, I guess. I think those who stay now are simply willing to go down with the ship.

Bon voyage,
lh

Hi Joe:

Somehow I knew this was coming down the pike last month.
Myself as priest and a few of the parishners that had reformed as a GS congregation only a few months ago have just left the GS and are in the process of reforming again in one of the Continuing Churches. No conection with "The Anglican Communion" is giving us now a sense of some real integrity for the first time.
Feels really good in fact to kiss Cantebury goodbye and all rest as well.

Never ever thought I'd say that. I'll miss many, such as ++Yong Ping Chung. But it's okay.

Blessings

Micro+

If these 38 believe that we will wait AGAIN, it is only because we have waited and waited many times before. Speaking for myself, I have waited patiently since 1989, and will wait NO MORE!!! My parish left TEC the day before Schori was invested. We are waiting for admission to CANA. But now, I do not believe we may be very interested in ANY Anglican jurisdiction. This Primates' Meeting seems to have been worse than a total waste. I have not been this pissed-off in years. Any ideas anyone??? Just don't mention anything about Rome. Rome sure as hell aint Home!

If we wait long enough, there will be nothing to wait for! It seems just so much more hyperbole.

TENTEX,

It depends on your sensibilities. I see you have rejected Rome out of hand. If you're an Anglo-Catholic you might try one of the Continuing Churches if there's one near you. If your sensibilities are more Protestant then perhaps the Reformed Episcopal Church might satisfy you. I'm Eastern Orthodox. I was once Episcopalian, then a member of the Anglican Catholic Church. Finally I got tired of the whole Anglican dogfight. I realize that my Church seems strange and foreign to some but it has made great inroads in the U.S. lately, gaining many evangelicals as well as Anglicans. There is a Western Rite approved for use in the Antiochian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. The Western Rite is based on older Anglican and Roman rites so it feels very familiar to Western Christians. You might get online on the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese website and see if there is a parish near you. Or, if you feel adventurous, just locate a few Orthodox churches in your area and visit. Many of the clergy and a significant number of people are Western converts.

Wherever you land, good luck and God bless,
lh

"Off to find a continuing church. Open for directions."

Dear Dave Ball:

Here is a good direction to head :

St. Alban's Anglican Church
Anglican Province of Christ the King
The Rev. Richard Livingston, Rector

Worship Address:
146 Pine Grove Road
(Corner of Rt. 45 & Kirk St.)
Pine Grove Mills, PA 16868

Mailing Address:
P.O. Box 170
Pine Grove Mills, PA 16868

Phone: (814) 234-4650
Fax: (814) 861-6868
Eastern Diocese

Orgelmstr

A big juicy curveball has just been served up to Bp. Bob Duncan and the Anglican Communion Network, FIFNA, AAC and any other orthodox group or diocese left In TEC. It is the bottom of the ninth, there are two outs, two strikes on the home team, one runner on base [named Akinola] and you are behind by a run. I don't care who the batter is - Duncan, Scofield, Ackermann, Iker, whoever. You now have one final swing! You either step up to the plate in the next few days and hit one out of the park or take your bats and balls home forever; you won't be needing them because the game will be over if you swing and miss. Forget the Primates. The whole world is now watching you! It is time you took responsibility for the outcome! Swing or else!

Feel free to join the PEC:

http://www.reformer.org/

We have nothing to offer but hard work. No money, no glamour. We do have the BCP, the 39 Articles, and the heritage of Cranmer and Ryle.

Given the fact that the Anglican church was founded in order to facilitate divorce; has historically persecuted gospel preaching ministers while defending the authority of unconverted ministers (see the controversies of Whitefield and Wesley); continues to educate its clergy in ungodly, Bible-denying seminaries; has consistently been the main vehicle for every heresy and immorality under the sun; and given the most recent developments whereby the church has called 'blessed' what God calls an abomination, I would like to ask you how anyone with any integrity can belong to the Anglican church?

As the Bible says, people who do not follow the teaching of Christ (ex: the prohibition of homosexual relationships, and women pastors) do not have God, and if true Christians do not separate from such false brethren, then they participate in their evil deeds (2 John 9-11). In other words, unless Anglicans separate from the TEC, and perhaps from the Anglican church as a whole, then it would seem they are participating in the abominable deeds of Robinson and co.

There are many faithful continuing Anglican churches (REC, APA, etc). I suggest you have the duty of uniting with them (assuming, of course, you think Anglicanism is most faithful to Scripture).

I say this having attended an Anglican seminary (and nearly lost my faith because of it), as well as having worked as an Anglican chaplain.

This is really sad.
The Anglican Communion is officially dead.
The Scriptures--forget it.
The Ancient Authorities--forget them.
The use of Reason--forget that.
We are all hip now. We sup at the trough of the endowment of TEC. We get cash from 825. And that is all that matters.

When Push comes to Shove, the Gold plays.
God or Mammon? I guess the Primates choose Gold.

Too bad. Gold buys you nothing at the Bema.

All those brave words. But when it came time to forego the fancy robes, the elaborate meetings, the transcontinental flights, the fancy hotels, the superb convocation arrangements: f*** the Gospel. Let us have the cash.

Oh, well.

It is time for a new church.

Angler2, I think there's something that you and other often nay-saying posters on this blog need to learn about those of us who have taken the "wait and see" attitude, and the same goes for those posters who climb all over us for not instantly leaving "right now....immediately!"

In my case....and I'm sure in many others, my wife and I are in the Diocese of San Joaquin. Our church here in Los Banos has been a mission for over fifty years, and during the past three years, we've experienced enough growth to the point where we have outgrown our church building and parish hall.

The diocese bought six acres of property for us, on which we plan to build a new campus....church, parish/community hall, and hopefully a school eventually. We have many thousands of dollars invested, and we're not about to give that up. We are staying with our diocese. Where our bishop and diocese go, WE go!

As I'm sure you must know by now, we voted at our last diocesan convention in December to delete all references to The Episcopal Church....with a view towards severing our connection with TEC if it becomes necessary. As required by our diocesan canons, a second and final vote may come in October 2007 at our next convention....barring any unforseen event which might change the date. At things now stand, I will probably vote in favor of the resolution, as I did in December.

Like you, we're frustrated at the events of the past few days, weeks, and months. Yes, TEC and PB Jefferts-Schori ARE apostate, and we will, I'm sure, seek to change affiliation. That is for Bishop Schofield and the Standing Committee to decide. We don't need to be pressured.

Cennydd

Dear Tentex:

Anglican Provice of Christ the King is rich in the faith, rich in Anglican tradition. Here is the contact information for our Nashville parish:
St. Peter's Anglican Church
The Rt. Rev. William C. Wiygul, Bishop
The Rev. Canon Thomas J. Cairns, PIC 931.381.9949

Worship Address:
508 East Iris Drive (Berry Hill)
Nashville, TN 37204

Mailing Address:
180 Longview Ridge
Hendersonville, TN 37075

Phone: 615-383-0443
E-mail: wwiygul@aol.com
Southern Diocese

Services:
Sunday School 9 AM
Holy Eucharist 10 AM

Visit the parish web site at www.stpetersnashville.org.


God Speed,
Orgelmstr

Orgelmstr,

Thanks so much.

See PM.

Blessings

Anger among conservative Primates was growing tonight as it became clear that the Episcopal Church of the US is to escape discipline for ordaining an openly gay bishop. Anglican Primates, meeting in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, are to ask all 38 provinces to unite under a new Anglican Covenant published in draft form today. US and Canadian dioceses that have introduced same-sex blessings for gay couples are also to escape discipline .

============

They escape discipline . . . for now.

I want to second Lionheart's recommendation to look into the Western Orthodox. Unless the Continuing Anglicans can get their act together, and unless the conservative TEC dioceses are now ready to get out of the TEC, the best chance to preserve Anglicanism may well be by way of the Western Orthodox.

My dear friends,

Anglicanism is NOT dead - even if the See of Canterbury were to fall into the ocean, Anglicanism would continue. As long as there are Holy Scripture, the historic creeds, and the Book of Common Prayer, Anglicanism exists.

While this is a severe blow to all that many of us hoped for, it is not the end of traditional Anglicanism, and certainly not the end of Christendom.

I propose that those of you who have not left TEC, at least begin to seek other options (i.e. the continuing churches); those of us in the continuing churches need to begin communicating more and fighting less; we all need to spend as much time in Bible reading and reciting the daily offices as is humanly possible.

I don't care if the fat lady sings an entire auria - as long as there are Anglican bishops willing to uphold the historic faith, there will be an Anglican presence.

Peace and grace,

Bp. +Ed Steele
The Traditional Church of England

Thanks lionheart and others who have offered their advice.

I'm not sure where I will land. My identity is Anglican. But, I'm sure that my parish will soon land in the right place, wherever that is. Leaving a nice building was easier than we expected. Many of us may soon find ourselves in unexpected places.

Cennydd - With all due respect I think there is something YOU need to learn. Not all of us live in your diocese!!! Neither FIFNA nor ACN was formed to serve conservative dioceses only. As far as your own diocesan process goes, take all the time you want, though I think every day of inaction puts your bishop [for whom I have great affection] and you in peril [especially now]. But as for those of us under oppressive, revisionist bishops it may already be "game over." The "waiting" for you is very different than it is for us. Can't you see that? Are bishops consecrated only to serve the church in their own diocese? Why bother affiliating with any orthodox group if that is the case?

Forgive the baseball metaphors. Spring training has started and I got carried away! My home team is usually playing from behind.

After reading this report and the actual proposed covenant, I can imagine Jesus walking into the Temple in Jerusalem; and instead of throwing all the money changes out, goes up to the chief priests and warning them that God the Father will be very upset with them if they don't stop the money practices and will punish them if they continue. Does anyone really think that the money changes would of left town?

The Primates want to practice nicety-nice with those who would destroy the fabric of the AC. How naive can they be?

There is no hard discipline in the Anglican Church as there is none in the TEc (Cult). So, the BullS... will continue, and continue, and continue....

H

After my 36 years in the ECUSA, and with concurrence with our recent members who themselves spent at least that much time in ECUSA, there isn't a lot of difference between the REC and TEC, except we test all we do by Scripture, read from our Bible, not a lectionary, and cannot afford Chasubles. We may not have the cathedrals and the grandeur, but we have God and only God's Word to sustain us and that is all we need. Our bishops are men of God, not men of mammon, meeting anyone of them will instantly show you that. My one regret is that I did not search for the REC 36 years ago. It would have saved me a lot of stress.

Jack Ross
Providence Chapel, REC
357 Hartford Rd
Mt Laurel, New Jersey

It is very telling when a church needs a "covenant" to simply state that whoever signs it believes the basic tenants of the Christian faith.

No wonder the Anglican Communion is in trouble.

cennydd,

I'm sorry you feel pressured by some here to leave TEC "immediately". The reason I'm sorry is that "feeling pressure" means that you really don't want to leave and you think others are trying to bully you into a choice you're not willing to make.

There is no "immediacy" to it. It's been over 30 years coming or three years (if you just count from VGR's consecration).

Whatever you decide, may God bless you. I'm not sure though that I'd rely on any TEC bishop, or any Anglican Communion bishop for that matter.

lh

It is on evenings like this, that I wish more of the continuing bishops would get on here and speak. People are hurting, they are angry, and they need to know that there is pastoral help available.

So how about it, guys? We keep saying we want the continuum to work together! Hello? Is anyone out there?

+Ed Steele

Not so very far from my alma mater!

I feel your pain MicroCar. Our parish is in a somewhat unique situation, but I note the presence of an REC parish in the next town over from it.

Time for some very deep thinking and prayerful reflection.

Game over, folks.

The orthodox Anglicans have been given the shaft again, and there is NO reason for any orthodox believer to remain within TEC. For the sake of your soul and your sanity, LEAVE NOW. Go to Rome, go East, go to that Continuing church down your street, go to a bible-believing evangelical church...just GO. The longer you stay in TEC, the more the revisionists are laughing at YOU. You'll feel much better once you're out, trust me.

I second Pebble's motion.

There are those who post here who are stumping for Rome, or for the East, or for the Continuum or the REC or whomever. It really isn't so important at this point. Just get away before the lightning strikes. Find someplace where traditional Christianity is believed and taught, someplace relatively safe from revisionists. Trust me, your soul will feel much better.

I left TEC back in the late 90's. I attended an EMC church for awhile when I was in school in another city. Upon moving back, I joined an Anglican Catholic Church in a town about 90 minutes from where I live. Finally, it got to be too much. It wasn't just the distance, it was an identity question. Try to explain that you're an "Anglican Catholic". Sounds like some little breakaway church, right? I'm not trying to insult Continuers. I'm just conveying my feelings about the situation at the time. People think if you break away from some major body in favor of a break away body that you must be some kind of religious nut. I was just remaining decent.

In any case, I decided to let go of the whole Anglican thing entirely. Why live with one foot in Anglicanism? To me it seemed to taint who I am. I mean, Anglicanism is about Canterbury, right? Well, explain that you're an Anglican not in communion with Canterbury. Right, religious nut again.

Now it's different. I've got a healthy parish full of decent people who are helpful in every way and are proud of their heritage and faith without any "explanations". I feel safe. Not necessarily physically. Christians must always brave external dangers. But internally and in the communion of faith of my Church, I'm safe. No arguments about things long settled. No Integrity banners. We fuss about finances or the archdioceses charter or whatever. Things Christians have fussed about since Pentecost. It's different. Happiness is . . .

May God lead you to a place where you can feel the same way.

lh

Truthseekr,

It is going to take several days to digest all this. Your comments are obviously deeply thought out. The communiqué is not like the 10 commandments, no questions asked, but rather of human origin with human error therein. However, our collective sails were set in another direction and we will not come about. With the end of the Dar es Salaam primates meeting the die is cast.

To others who have read and witnessed my faith in ++Peter Akinola, the GS and our U.S. conservative leadership - I continue to pray for them and our future. We may walk different paths depending upon what we hear from them in the coming days. But the focus will remain on God the Father and our Lord and Savior. A safe voyage to all.

‘The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.’ Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

Fisherman

H E L L O! Pebble! Is anybody home? Did you read what I said, and if you did, did it sink in?

Or do I have to repeat myself?

Cennydd

I have found joy, contentment and opportunities for ministry in the Evangelcal Free Church of America.

Web site: http://www.efca.org/
My local church web site: http://www.blackhawkchurch.org/index.php

I recommend it for those of you who are evangelical. One of their goals is healthy churches.

Watching the dissipation of The Episcopal Church, I have come to believe that all of the beautiful liturgy, classical music, lectionary, apostolic succession and priestly sacramental theology all have the ability to please us enough with themselves that we are satisfied without worshiping Father, Son and Holy Spirit with a truly converted heart. In other words, these things can act like a vaccine - to keep you from getting the real thing.

I would rather receive holy communion with bread and grape juice, as a memorial, with the real presence of Christ in my heart and the hearts of many around me, than to recieve Holy Eucharist at an Episcopal Church where there is the 'Real Absence' of conversion and obedience.

So, that's where I've been.

My prayers are with all of you who struggle with your own decisions. I can hardly believe the change in me from an Anglo-Catholic Evangelical to my current life. But it is wonderful for me, and I am growing and serving.

David

We knew the Holy Spirit was movingly mightily in Africa, and David Virtue reinforced there was hope. Say "Good Night, Gracie".

I'm wating a few weeks to see if any surprises are announced.

Then I'm deleting this and all other Anglican bookmarks from my browser. Bon voyage, indeed...

Many thanks to many posters for your commentary over the last year or so.

Cennydd: Yes, we're all home. We all read what you said. It DID sink in. No, you don't have to repeat yourself.

You said:

Quote:

SD

They were gutless. Its about the money, not God.

One does not invest dollars, one invests oneself in Christ.

Good point SixDays,

Someone once said that its impossible to change a man's mind if his living is at stake. But money is no subsitute for integrity and a clear conscience before God.

The doctrine of separation is not popular among Anglicans, I know. It seems more fitting for Plymouth Brethren (who themselves came out of the CofE). However, it is a Biblical doctrine nonetheless, one that is often forgotten or ignored by churches with a 'Constantinian' mindset. God calls us to separate from unfaithful teachers (2 John 9-11). Its not hard to go through the roster of teaching of the bishops and find most of them are heterodox. Money is not the question. Obedience to Christ is the question, and separation is the answer.

Support a Bible believing church, not one that mocks and profanes that name of Christ.

http://www.traininginchristianity.blogspot.com/

Cennydd: You said...

"We have many thousands of dollars invested, and we're not about to give that up...."

I'm sad for you. Mamon, comfort and secure.

Please don't repeat yourself. There is nothing left to say.

Goodbye

Micro+

There are a few cards left to play, but this is looking very much like the end.

We all know the prime directive of any bureaucracy is to preserve the bureaucracy. It seems that is what is happening here. Preserving the structure and the bishops’ turf trumps all. Christ, the Bible, tradition, and conventional morality, not to mention orthodoxy – these are secondary considerations. (And, frankly, some of these can be seen to discriminate against people.)

I fled Iowa for Quincy (a short drive across the river). I’ll wait to learn Bishop Ackerman’s response before deciding if we must travel on. Perhaps we will find refuge in the Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic churches…

It is so sad to have the church leave us behind as it traipses off after popular culture to try to seduce it. Talk about the Whore of Babylon!

It appears the Spirit has departed TEC and the Anglican Communion to boot. Some of them may be glad for it. It will make it all the easier to be inclusive. It will make more room under their big tent for Buddha and the Maharishi. As a priest I know – someone who has no problem with homosexual marriage – says, all the rivers enter into the same sea.

I pray for understanding how this is part of God’s plan and not just a victory for Satan. In the words of Tolkien, the Enemy is on the move.

George Strait has a new song about a couple who was very much in love and broke up. They are deciding what to do with the common possessions such as wedding pictures and the big four poster bed. The chorus to the song is "just give it away, just give it away". How appropriate that a church that began as an act to approve sexual picadello ends in the same way. It is over. The building and the vestments....well, just give 'em away,...just give 'em away.

"The doctrine of separation is not popular among Anglicans, I know . . . however, it is a Biblical doctrine nonetheless, one that is often forgotten or ignored by churches with a 'Constantinian' mindset."

I don't think the Orthodox or Roman Catholics have forgotten about "the doctrine of separation". The Anglo-Catholics who left in the 70's didn't forget it either. Seems like this amnesia is largely a protestant affair.

lh

OK, I have read the communique c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y. It is 100% pure weasel-wording. All about people's hurt feelings and boundaries; nothing about reconciliation with the Almighty.

Gentlemen, Ladies, before we fall totally into despair I strongly suggest that you look into what is being said about the meeting, the communique, the schedule and the proposed covenant at the revisionist and gaybie websites. Many of them are frothing at the mouth in rage and all are frustrated.

You might also consider listening to what Orombi is now saying post meeting. It is not business as usual.

Did the traditional/orthodox parishes get the shaft? Everybody, including the gaybies, got shafted from their point of view, it seems.

Am I happy or do I think this is victory? Of course not, but before I despair, surrender or quit I intend to listen to what AMIA and CANA parish priests have to say.


Be careful what you ask for.
Causidicus

Perhaps God is testing us. Perhaps He wants to force us to make a decision...like the decision the members of the early Church had to make (offer incense to Caesar or be executed). The easy way for everybody would have been for the Southern Primates to split, to force TEC out of the Anglican Communion. Then the decision to leave would be easy. But Jesus didn't save us the "easy" way. No one in their right mind could refer to death by crucifixion as "easy". Maybe God wants us, for once in our spiritual lives, to make a "hard" decision. Remember, God is in control, not the ABC, not Schori, not V.G. Robinson. God gave us free will. He expects us to use it.

I'm not sure anyone is still reading this thread, but I'll keep going anyway...

Many of the "news" sources say that the Primates' document made demands of the TEC; well I don't see it. The word "request" is used - not "demand".

Additionally, if the AC is ready to reject TEC, then why elect "Kate" to its highest committee? It seems that if there were any question of what the future holds, then the PB of TEC wouldn't be part of the group that helps plan Lambeth!

Sorry, but I think the media is trying to make this more exciting than it is.

+Ed

Very disappointing. Some people are not going to change churches, they'll just stay home. Not a good option, but certainly many will choose.

Fiona

The Global South primates and especially Peter Akinola are fools. After all the build-up to this meeting, how could they possibly go in without counting noses to see how much support that they actually had. While they were blustering and posturing, KJS and ECUSA were quietly lining up support to save their bacon. This is the most absurd debacle that I have ever witnessed.

Shame on the Global South for going in unprepared and getting their heads handed to them. Shame on the so-called "moderate" primates for lacking the courage to stand for anything other than the continuation of the institutional church that gives them power. As much as I detest KJS and ECUSA, I have to give her kudos for making Peter Akinola look like the dope that he evidently is. Anybody who has jumped on the CANA bandwagon had better think twice about that endeavor. I think that ship may be headed for the rocks.

I hope that Peter Akinola is seated next to Gene Robinson at Lambeth 2008. That would be the ultimate irony. One has to seriously question what future that the Anglican Communion has. If you can't build a consensus around defending the authority of Scripture, they are just a few years behind ECUSA in the race to irrelevance.

Even though my family and I have been attending an LCMS church since July, I'd not completely abandoned hope of returning to an orthodox Episcopal/Anglican church...until yesterday. When I read the Communique, my first thought was of how the rest of the Communion let TEC get off "scot free." VGR is still a bishop...and KJS is still PB AND is recognized by the rest of the Primates (including the Global South). Since they did not stand up against TEC's ongoing heresy, they're now party to it--Williams, Akinola, Venebles, and all. Skipping Eucharist a time or two makes for nice symbolism...but when it came time to ACT, the Global South showed as much spine as the marine creatures KJS studied in her past career. They all deserve each other, and I, for one, hope Akinola and KJS are seated next to each other at Lambeth 2008. They're like Pilate and Caiphas...

The part of all this is so sad, is that nothing has changed. I think everyone held out hope because of all the posturing by all sides involved. But, when it came time to speak out, everyone became mute, after being deaf and dumb already. Anglicans have always been famous for writing religious gobblygook. The more a document weighs, the more importand and wise it must be. When you get down to the nitty gritty, what's wrong with Anglicanism is that it has become a number of loose cannon leaders and loose canon churches, charged by even looser canon bishops. If the church cannot police itself, it's the end of Anglicanism as an "organized" religion. What is left is a group of disorganized bishops, dioceses and churches. We waited, we waited some more, and then finally this. Warnings and documents will not change anyone's heart. The traditional Anglican church as people have known it for 400+ years is dead. It didn't die from without, it died from within. If anyone has a doubt is what is going to happen in September, where have you been hiding.

Anglican leaders rule on gay bishops

By ELIZABETH A. KENNEDY
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

DAR ES SALAAM, Tanzania -- Anglican leaders demanded Monday that the U.S. Episcopal Church unequivocally bar official prayers for gay couples and the consecration of more gay bishops to undo the damage that North Americans have caused the Anglican family.

In a statement ending a tense six-day meeting, the leaders said that past pledges by Episcopalians for a moratorium on gay unions and consecrations have been so ambiguous that they have failed to fully mend "broken relationships" in the 77 million-member Anglican Communion.

The Episcopal Church, the U.S. wing of world Anglicanism, must clarify its position by Sept. 30 or its relations with other Anglicans will remain "damaged at best."

"This has consequences for the full participation of the church in the life of the communion," the leaders said.

The meeting in Tanzania was the latest of several attempts to keep Anglicans unified despite deep rifts over how they should interpret the Bible. The long-simmering debate erupted in 2003 when Episcopalians consecrated the first openly gay bishop, V. Gene Robinson of New Hampshire.

Anglican traditionalists believe gay relationships violate Scripture and they have demanded that the U.S. church adhere to that teaching or face discipline.

Supporters of ordaining gays believe biblical teachings on justice and inclusion should take precedence. They have accused theological conservatives of demanding a conformity among Anglicans that never before existed. The communion was founded in the 16th century by King Henry VIII and spread worldwide by the British Empire.

Discussions at the closed-door gathering this past week were so highly charged that drafting the final statement for the 38 Anglican provinces took hours longer than expected.

In 2005, Anglican leaders had asked the Episcopal Church to temporarily stop electing gay bishops and developing official prayer services for same-sex couples.

The top Episcopal policy making body, called General Convention, responded by asking church leaders to "exercise restraint by not consenting to the consecration" of candidates for bishop "whose manner of life presents a challenge to the wider church." The request is not binding.

On official prayer services, the convention rejected proposals for a churchwide liturgy for gay partners. However, a small number of U.S. dioceses have moved toward developing local prayers and some dioceses have allowed priests to conduct the ceremonies privately.

Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, the spiritual leader of the communion, does not have direct authority to force a compromise. He said the requests contained in the document released Monday "will certainly fall very short of resolving all the disputes, but will provide a way of moving forward with dignity."

Canon Kendall Harmon of the Diocese of South Carolina, a leader among Episcopal traditionalists, said the document "is not everything I would have wanted," but he was encouraged that Anglican leaders "made specific calls with specific deadlines."

I'm still reading the thread. There is nothing else available. I would have thought that by now we would have heard something from the conservatives who attended the meeting.

I used to post here on a regular basis. I quit because it became apparent that most of those who come here merely wanted a venue from which to vent. This forum provides that. They didn't really want to do anything to effect any real change. I became branded as a "nay-sayer" so I left.

Having returned, recently, I find that I was right. Only those who have left the TEC or those who came here as representatives of a continuing group, have anything of any real value to say. The only answer is to disassociate from Canterbury. Associating with a group from outside the US accomplishes nothing as long as that group still has ties to the CoE. That means that you STILL belong to the same "club" as does the TEC. That seems so easy to understand that I can't figure out why there are any conservatives still left in the TEC. As has recently been pointed out, there is only one reason that people seem to remain. Money! It is so sad that it boils down to that. The argument of Loyalty to the Bishop doesn't wash either. The liberals could make the same claim.

I live in an area where there is no continuing Anglican church within a reasonable drive. There is also no orthodox church nearby. Non-Liturgical and "Halleluiah" Churches don't inspire me. That leaves me with only the RC. I began their inquires class and was informed that the difference between the RC and other churches is that the seat of authority lies with the church at the RC and with the Bible at other churches. Without the Bible as the foundation, it just doesn't seem right to me. So, I'm still looking.

God will take care of me. He always has.

SD

Tomorrow is Ash Wednesday, the first day of Lent. I would humbly suggest that everyone spend some time repenting of any way that we have been responsible for this mess; by our failure to commend the faith that is in us, by our timidity in the face of obvious errors and wrong doing, by our laxity in prayer, self denial and modeling the life of Christ in our own life, and by our failure to grieve over our sins. I have much to confess in each of those areas. I believe that the way forward begins with an act of confession and repentance. Like Peter we must see the horror of our betrayal, return to the Lord and tell Him how much we love Him. This is the first step in cleansing our souls and discerning the right direction for the future. I wish all here a holy Lent!

Micro+, I certainly hope you didn't get the wrong impression that money is the most important thing to us here at St Alban's.....it most definitely isn't! For many years, we struggled, and we finally reached the point where we knew we needed money to build. That's why we applied to the diocese for help.

We are using that money to build new church facilities which will enable us to house our growing Church Family.....one which is committed to the Great Commission. Unfortunately, it takes thousands of dollars to do the job which we want to do.

We are thoroughly orthodox.....but apparently not orthodox enough for some people! So if we don't "leave immediately....right now!," as some want us to do, please know that there's a reason behind all this. That reason is the spreading of the Word of God....directly from the Bible....right here in Los Banos! And we're doing that very effectively, according to the new people who've come to us.

No further explanation is necessary.

Cennydd

artistree, Thank you for posting the "Anglican leaders rule on gay bishops" article.

mmm...



humbly, gregory

Check the News ladies and gentlemen:

By Morris Mwavizo and Rebecca Trounson, Special to The Times
February 20, 2007

DAR ES SALAAM, TANZANIA - Anglican leaders wrapping up a
tense meeting here Monday called on the U.S. Episcopal Church to state unequivocally that it will bar the blessing of same-sex unions and stop
consecrating gay bishops in order to heal a rift that threatens to split the
worldwide Anglican Communion.
The Anglican leaders gave the U.S. church a deadline of Sept. 30 to clarify
its position, warning that if the requested reassurances could not be given
by then, the Episcopal Church ran the risk that its relationship with the
global communion would be "damaged at best."
The communique also hinted at possible expulsion, noting that such damage
"has consequences for the full participation of the church in the life of the communion."

While many of the mainstream media sources are calling the Anglican Primates meeting in Tanzania a rebuke of the Episcopal Church, and even though some liberals are seething about the outcome, I don’t think conservatives should be too hopeful yet.

Yes, I know people like Canon Kendall Harmon (Diocese of South Carolina) stated there will be real consequences if TEC doesn’t change, but I just don’t see it…and I’ll tell you why.

First of all, TEC’s newest “star”, Katharine Jefferts Schori, was elected to represent the Americas on the Primates' Standing Committee. She is now one of five Primates to serve on such, which means she is on the committee that helps determine the course of the Anglican Communion. Is that the type of action that would be taken if TEC were in any real danger of losing a major place within the Anglican Communion?

Secondly, the only threatened result of TEC not meeting the requests (vice “demands” as reported in the media) is that they may have less than full participation in the Communion. But what does that mean? Indeed, the actual paragraph in the Primates communiqué simply says:

“If the reassurances requested of the House of Bishops cannot in good conscience be given, the relationship between The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion as a whole remains damaged at best, and this has consequences for the full participation of the Church in the life of the Communion.”

My translation: if TEC continues to sin, then they will continue to not be liked by all the Primates, and might have to sit in the back of the room at Lambeth 2008. There is nothing that even hints at complete exclusion from the Anglican Communion now or in the future.

By the way, for those hoping for another province in the United States, please note that the Primates only called for measures that will “enable such individuals, congregations and clergy to exercise their ministries and congregational life within The Episcopal Church…” There is nothing said about life outside TEC.

I am not going to tell anyone what to do because we each need to make our own decisions. But I pray that all conservatives, including the continuing bishops, see this as a priority to work together. Let's stop waiting for others to act, and get something going.

Peace,

+Ed

artistree; Thanks for the info. However, the TEC has demonstrated that they don't really care what anyone does or thinks of them. Additionally, the time frame of Sept 30 is just another attempt to prolong the inevitable. -SD

+Ed; You are right on the mark! -SD

Dear Mathman,

The Anglican Communion has been dead for several decades now, but traditional Anglicanism lives on in bodies such as the Anglican Catholic Church, the Anglican Province of Christ the King, the United Episcopal Church, and others. In fact, there's a bustling ACC church not too far from you in Alexandria, VA:

St. Andrew and St. Margaret of Scotland
(703) 683-3343
http://www.standrewandstmargaret.org

This parish, and the ACC in general, are working hard to carry on the classical apostolic, Biblical, and Catholic faith, worship, and discipline of traditional Anglicanism.

Fr. Rob
ACC Priest

For what it's worth, I ran across the following article this morning from the New York Times: "Anglicans Rebuke U.S.Branch on Same-Sex Unions," by Sharon LaFraniere and Laurie Goodstein, and published February 20, 2007. I think some of the comments are worth a read.

Cennydd

Cennydd,

I read that piece this morning, but I have to admit that I don't trust the NY Times a whole bunch. After all, just a few days ago they had the Anglicans and Catholics all but joined at the hip (LOL).

Keep up the good fight, and know that many of us in the continuing churches are praying for all our brothers and sisters caught in the fray of TEC.

Peace,

+Ed

Damascus,

I know you are hurting and grieving, all of us are.
Still, there are a number of good God fearing leaders in the Anglican Communion, both at this DAR2007 meeting, and also still left in ecusa...

These leaders have tried hard to lead in a biblical manner, and have gotten outvoted. In the exact same situation, do you believe even yourself could have done better? If the deck was stacked and you did not have the votes?

How could they have been sure in advance? There are a bunch of weasel mouthed slippery folks in the pile, plus what, maybe 14 brand new Primates that had never met the test of fire like this before. How would you really know who could stand on biblical truths and perservere and who would sell out or just fold from the pressure?

I still have great respect for ++ Peter Akinola and all the GS Primates that took a stand. These folks, and all the conservate orthodox leaders still left in ecusa, have got to be hurting right now, and praying to figure out what to do next... Many of them had endured much to stand and perservere this long.

It is not the time for other Christian warriors, to be shooting our own walking wounded in the back.

Chill, hang on for a couple of weeks to see what shakes out, or walk right now if you need to...whatever...

But lets do not take out our frustrations on those who strive to perservere for Godly truth...

peace of the Lord,
truthseekr

What must be recognized is that decades of ignoring the revisionist left has left the Christians outside the door of the Episcopal church. What is now inside is clergy with little interest in religion and a great deal of interest in their paychecks.

The laity must decide. Some like the 60s hippie religions - this is about 10% of the laity. Some don't care or simply won't change because they don't really know what to do or are too tired/old to change - this is about 60% t0 70% of the laity. Some understand what is happening and are repelled enough to change - this is about 20% to 30% of the church. Over time, the middle group will wither away and what will be left is a church of a few hundred thousand politically correct left-wingers.

Essentially, the Episcopal church is now on a path to destruction. The Africans know it but they also know that the Episcopal revisionists hold the money at this time. They will wait this thing out even if it takes a couple of decades - which it most assuredly will.

As a member of the laity, I don't have time to wait this mess out. I have left for more Christian pastures and I condemn the Episcopal situation at every turn because I want Christians to understand that they are at risk in such a church.

Perhaps our most fundamental problem is that most Anglicans who say they/we believe in the authority of scripture, actually don't. St. Paul says that the test of an Apostle is signs, wonders, and miracles (2 Cor 12:12). What candidate for the episcopacy has ever been questioned about the signs, wonders, and miracles following his ministry? Why should any of us have ever placed our faith in apostles who fail to meet the test set out by St. Paul?

+The Watchman

Fiona wrote:
"Very disappointing. Some people are not going to change churches, they'll just stay home. Not a good option, but certainly many will choose."

Very good point, Fiona. This is particularly true with the elderly. I personally know of many elderly people who refuse to participate in or donate to their TEc parish because they're repulsed by the homosex-promoting social agenda, but they don't have enough energy to help start something else. The only way they're going to go anywhere is if all they have to do is show up--and, in many cases, if somebody drives them there. I think this is why TEc's donations are down.

Blessings,

chaps

Just picked this up from Fox News. Now something must be clarified by September 2007 or we primates just might do something. Of course that something is another deadline just to keep this thing going indefinitely. This is what the Chinese call death by a thousand cuts - and it is disgusting. And, by the way, who would not pray for homosexuals? That is what good Christians do. However, good Christians do not accept homosexual behavior as normal. They recognize that homosexual behavior is perverted and dangerous and nothing for children to emulate.
----------------------------------------------

DAR ES SALAAM, Tanzania — Anglican leaders demanded Monday that the U.S. Episcopal Church unequivocally bar official prayers for gay couples and the consecration of more gay bishops to undo the damage that North Americans have caused the Anglican family.

In a statement ending a tense six-day meeting, the leaders said that past pledges by Episcopalians for a moratorium on gay unions and consecrations have been so ambiguous that they have failed to fully mend "broken relationships" in the 77 million-member Anglican Communion.

The Episcopal Church, the U.S. wing of world Anglicanism, must clarify its position by Sept. 30 or its relations with other Anglicans will remain "damaged at best."

"This has consequences for the full participation of the church in the life of the communion," the leaders said.

The meeting in Tanzania was the latest of several attempts to keep Anglicans unified despite deep rifts over how they should interpret the Bible. The long-simmering debate erupted in 2003 when Episcopalians consecrated the first openly gay bishop, V. Gene Robinson of New Hampshire.

Anglican traditionalists believe gay relationships violate Scripture and they have demanded that the U.S. church adhere to that teaching or face discipline.

Supporters of ordaining gays believe biblical teachings on justice and inclusion should take precedence. They have accused theological conservatives of demanding a conformity among Anglicans that never before existed. The communion was founded in the 16th century by King Henry VIII and spread worldwide by the British Empire.

Discussions at the closed-door gathering this past week were so highly charged that drafting the final statement for the 38 Anglican provinces took hours longer than expected.

In 2005, Anglican leaders had asked the Episcopal Church to temporarily stop electing gay bishops and developing official prayer services for same-sex couples.

The top Episcopal policy making body, called General Convention, responded by asking church leaders to "exercise restraint by not consenting to the consecration" of candidates for bishop "whose manner of life presents a challenge to the wider church." The request is not binding.

On official prayer services, the convention rejected proposals for a churchwide liturgy for gay partners. However, a small number of U.S. dioceses have moved toward developing local prayers and some dioceses have allowed priests to conduct the ceremonies privately.

Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, the spiritual leader of the communion, does not have direct authority to force a compromise. He said the requests contained in the document released Monday "will certainly fall very short of resolving all the disputes, but will provide a way of moving forward with dignity."

Canon Kendall Harmon of the Diocese of South Carolina, a leader among Episcopal traditionalists, said the document "is not everything I would have wanted," but he was encouraged that Anglican leaders "made specific calls with specific deadlines."

However, the advocacy group Integrity, which represents Episcopal gays and lesbians, accused the leaders of bigotry, and urged Episcopalians to lobby their bishops to reject the demands.

Episcopal Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, who supports gay relationships, said in a brief statement after she left the meeting that talks among Anglicans must continue.

The final statement from Anglican leaders expressed worry over feuding within the Episcopal Church and the wider communion. Some U.S. parishes have left the Episcopal Church to affiliate with Anglicans in Africa. Nigerian Archbishop Peter Akinola has set up a network for conservative U.S. parishes as a rival to the Episcopal Church. Lawsuits have been filed over Virginia-area churches that joined with Akinola and want to take their property with them.

Anglican leaders called on all sides in the conflict to end their lawsuits and recommended the creation of a pastoral council and a special vicar to oversee the minority of conservative U.S. dioceses and parishes that feel they cannot accept Jefferts Schori's leadership. Among the goals of the plan is to create an alternative so U.S. parishes stop affiliating with overseas Anglicans — a violation of communion tradition.

Anglican leaders also released a draft set of common principles meant to allow Anglican provinces to remain independent, but recognize their actions have an impact on each other.

The proposed Anglican Covenant, which will likely be revised before it is finalized years from now, states that a church could lose full membership in "extreme circumstances" but could take steps to regain its full member status.

Cennydd wrote:
“... please know that there's a reason behind all this. That reason is the spreading of the Word of God....directly from the Bible....right here in Los Banos! And we're doing that very effectively, according to the new people who've come to us.
“No further explanation is necessary.”

No explanation is possible—and this is addressed to all those who are still in TEc. Scripture as well as both the Apostolic Canons and the canons of the Ecumenical Councils forbid praying with schismatics and heretics either in private or in public. They also forbid your clergy, under the penalty of being defrocked and excommunicated, from functioning with or under schismatic or heretical clergy.

It really is that simple—just follow Scripture and the Canons. They tell you to leave—period. They don't tell you to wait until you can hold on to the property. They don't make any provision for staying because you believe you're still “spreading ... the Word of God ... directly from the Bible” (which is not really possible when you are in communion with schismatics or heretics)—or for any other excuse. You are acting like Martha (see Lk 10:38-42): you have allowed yourself to become “distracted with much serving” (v 40) so that “you are worried and troubled about many things” (v 41)—things which Christ has not asked you to do—“But one thing is needed” (v 42)—listening to Christ's words and doing what He has asked you to do. That does not exclude Martha's role—serving Him—but you've got to get your priorities straight: first you need to hear His words and obey Him—by leaving TEc—and then serve Him in the new faithful community—by “spreading ... the Word of God ... directly from the Bible ... right here in Los Banos!” Then you will be like Mary—you will have “chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her” (v 42).

Blessings,

chaps

How far the Anglican Communion has moved from its historical and "apostolic" roots is every day more evident. Clearly, the spirit of the ecumenical councils is hardly that of the current generation of bishops. But, then, that was an uncompromising time...

In any case, "time for reconciliation" is a 'sporting' response ('Give peace a chance' and all that 'Sixties rot) but MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, TEC-USA is not about to compromise in any meaningful or substantive way. TEC-USA utterly lacks the 'good faith' necessary to true Christian compromise and reconciliation--indeed, theirs is a different 'faith' altogether. The true disciples of their spiritual father, the Adversary himself, they will temporize, endlessly conference in "conversations" ad nauseam, with the sole intention of wearing the opposition down. They love it, of course, for it not only renders the opposition malleable to their will, while giving the appearance of liberality and sensitivity, but it is also aesthetically pleasing. If Schori's disarming charm and colorful garments (not to mention the filthy lucre she represents) fails to win over the Africans, the velvet glove and mask may just come off (one can only hope!) to reveal the true spirit of TEC-USA.

Satan's way is vulgar mimicry of God's Truth, so expect a veritable cornucopia of 'god-talk' and empty phrases (including biblical references--the worst hypocrisy from the revisionists), the false hurt and (self-endorsing) 'martyr complex'--the whole putrid spectrum. It's the Big Lie, as Goebbel's so astutely observed, that has the best prospects of passing for truth. Who did the Lord Jesus say was a 'liar from the beginning' and the 'father of lies'? Revisionists, of course, do not believe that this is a real spiritual battle--or that "Satan" even exists (his best deception of all). True believers, however, have God's Holy Spirit, who alone can guide and steer us to the only truth in Jesus Christ. Grant your people discernment and wisdom, O Lord, in these perplexing times!

The Ecumenical Councils didn't mess around did they? The Truth meant something then and it does so now.

The good Fathers would never have let things get this far.

Blessings,

Neal

chaps; Yours are exactly the insightful posts that are needed here. Thank you. SD

ROMA, June 3, 2005 – Cardinal Giacomo Biffi, now 77, was archbishop of Bologna from 1984 to 2003. A theologian and a great scholar of Saint Ambrose, he has assembled some of his writings which are not strictly theological in a volume recently published by Cantagalli.

The title of the book: "Pinocchio, Peppone, l’Anticristo e altre divagazioni [Pinocchio, Peppone, the Antichrist, and other Meanderings].”

The Antichrist referred to in the title is the one described by Russian philosopher and theologian Vladimir Sergeyevich Soloviev in the last book he wrote before his death in 1900: "The Three Dialogues and the Story of the Antichrist."

Why does Cardinal Biffi want to bring this back to everyone's attention today? Because – he writes ¿– "Soloviev announces with prophetic clarity the great crisis that afflicted Christianity during the last decade of the 20th century."

In the figure of the Antichrist as described by Soloviev, Biffi sees "the emblem of the confused and ambiguous religious identity of the times we are living in now." He sees the singling out and criticism of "principled Christianity," an emphasis on "openness," obsession with "dialogue" at all costs, "in which there seems to remain little of the unique and incomparable person of the Son of God who was crucified for us, rose from the dead, and is now alive. It is the situation that Fr. Divo Barsotti denounced in an extraordinary, and extraordinarily true, statement, when he said that in the Catholic world of our time, Jesus Christ is too often simply an excuse to talk about something else."

In Soloviev's tale, the Antichrist is elected president of the United States of Europe, acclaimed as emperor in Rome, takes possession of the entire world, and finally imposes his command even over the life and organization of the Churches. But what Cardinal Biffi calls to attention is not this series of events, but rather the personal characteristics of the Antichrist. Here follow a few passages from his essay, which deserves to be read in its entirety, in which the cardinal summarizes these personal traits and explains what lesson they hold for the Church of today:


The days are coming, and are already here…

by Giacomo Biffi


The Antichrist, says Soloviev, was "a convinced spiritualist." He believed in goodness, and even in God. He was an ascetic, a scholar, a philanthropist. He gave "the greatest possible demonstrations of moderation, disinterest, and active beneficence."

In his early youth, he had distinguished himself as a talented and insightful exegete: one of his extensive works on biblical criticism had brought him an honorary degree from the University of Tübingen.

But the book that had gained for him universal fame and consensus bore the title: "The Open Road to Universal Peace and Prosperity," in which "a noble respect for ancient traditions and symbols was joined with a sweeping, audacious radicalism toward social and political needs and directives. Limitless freedom of thought was united with a profound comprehension of everything mystical; absolute individualism with an ardent dedication to the common good; the most elevated idealism toward guiding principles with the complete precision and viability of practical solutions."

It is true that some men of faith wondered why the name of Christ did not appear even once, but others replied: "If the contents of the book are permeated with the true Christian spirit, with active love and universal benevolence, what more do you want?" Besides, he "was not in principle hostile to Christ." On the contrary, he appreciated his right intentions and lofty teaching.

But three things about Jesus were unacceptable to him.

First of all, his moral preoccupations. "The Christ," he asserted, "has divided men according to good and evil with his moralism, whereas I will unite them with the benefits that both good and evil alike require."

He also did not like Christ's "absolute uniqueness." He was one of many, or even better – he said – he was my precursor, because I am the perfect and definitive savior; I have purified his message of what is unacceptable for the men of today.

Finally, and above all, he could not endure the fact that Christ is alive, so much so that he repeated hysterically: "He is not among the living, and will never be. He is not risen, he is not risen, he is not risen. He rotted, he rotted in the tomb…"

But where Soloviev's presentation shows itself to be particularly original and surprising – and merits greater reflection – is in the attribution to the Antichrist of the qualities of pacifist, environmentalist, ecumenist. […]

Did Soloviev have a particular person in mind when he made this description of the Antichrist? It is undeniable that he alludes above all to the "new Christianity" that Leo Tolstoy was successfully promoting during those years. […]

In his "Gospel," Tolstoy reduces all of Christianity to five rules of conduct which he derives from the Sermon on the Mount:

1. Not only must you not kill, but you must not even become angry with your brother.

2. You must not give in to sensuality, not even to the desire for your own wife.

3. You must never bind yourself by swearing an oath.

4. You must not resist evil, but you must apply the principle of non-violence to the utmost and in every case.

5. Love, help, and serve your enemy.

According to Tolstoy, although these precepts come from Christ, they in no way require the actual existence of the Son of the living God to be valid. [...]

Of course, Soloviev does not specifically identify the great novelist with the figure of the Antichrist. But he intuited with extraordinary clairvoyance that Tolstoy's creed would become during the 20th century the vehicle of the substantial nullification of the gospel message, under the formal exaltation of an ethics and a love for humanity presented as Christian "values." [...]

The days will come, Soloviev tells us – and are already here, we say – in which the salvific meaning of Christianity, which can be received only in a difficult, courageous, concrete, and rational act of faith, will be dissolved into a series of "values" easily sold on the world markets.

The greatest of the Russian philosophers warns us that we must guard against this danger. Even if a Tolstoian Christianity were to make us infinitely more acceptable in the living room, at social and political gatherings, and on television, we cannot and must not renounce the Christianity of Jesus Christ, the Christianity that has at its center the scandal of the cross and the astonishing reality of the Lord's resurrection.

Jesus Christ, the crucified and risen Son of God, the only savior of mankind, cannot be transformed into a series of worthwhile projects and good inspirations, which are part and parcel of the dominant worldly mentality. Jesus Christ is a "rock," as he said of himself. And one either builds upon this "rock” (by entrusting oneself) or lunges against it (through opposition): "He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but when it falls on any one, it will crush him" (Mt. 21:44). [...]

So Soloviev's teaching was simultaneously prophetic and largely ignored. But we want to repropose it in the hope that Christianity will finally catch on to it and pay it a bit of attention.

They just want you guys to wait, and wait, and wait some more. I've been waiting since the 70's for the Church to move more toward orthodox doctrine. But, why wait any longer? Anglicans have lost the apostolic succession they cherish so much, since a woman now heads up ECUSA. It's all gone guys - hard to take, but much expected.

It's the Anglican waiting game - they know they can out wait you!

Chaps responded to my point that many devout Episcopalians will just stay home. In a bizarre way, that is why my husband and I are back attending an Episcopal church, where we are not exactly welcomed but are enthusiastically tolerated Beyond having a sacramental place to worship God, we have the opportunity to bring the Eucharist to those who can no longer come to church. If this is all we do, it is enough. And don't tell me about the "continuing" Anglican churches--I, as well as my husband (as a layman), was forbidden to do so in that venue.

And to my Welsh brother in the San Joaquin Valley, I ask, when will the church in Los Banos be sending out missionaries to Diocese of California? We could do with some house churches.

Fiona

[color=660033]"Off to fiHere is a good direction to head :Here is a good direction to head :
St. Alban's Anglican Church
Anglican Province of Christ the King
The Rev. Richard Livingston, Rector

Only if you are a man, David. So if there is a Mrs. Ball or small female Balls, they will not participate, except in as Altar Guild members and as raisers of money for the men to distribute.

I guess I'm too much of a Protestant and too American for that.

Fiona

Chaps writesI personally know of many elderly people who refuse to participate in or donate to their TEc parish because they're repulsed by the homosex-promoting social agenda, but they don't have enough energy to help start something else. The only way they're going to go anywhere is if all they have to do is show up--and, in many cases, if somebody drives them there. I think this is why TEc's donations are down.

This is so true. So what are we supposed to do for these poor people? Just let them stay home with no visitation? Drag them off to the Baptist church down the street so that they can "be saved?" These souls need to be ministered to. They don't care who is bishop and what Sodomites are at the altar, they just want to be left to worship in peace.

Sometimes, I can't blame them and every Sunday I confess to the sin of contentiousness.

Fiona