Well, whatever. If the Islamic leaders weren't complaining about the various ECUSA activist groups hanging around the meeting, they'd be complaining about something else.

All this waiting for something to happen of substance to happen in the Anglican Communion since 2003. All the bluster from the Global South will show them to be nothing but paper tigers if nothing is done. Looks like Anglican Communion is all style over substance. Sin has been made a negotiable concept. Take down the crosses and bring in the butterflies. It looks like its over. Anglicanism is just another big LibProt shindig.

Should have been expected.

I do not hesitate to agree with Muslims when they are right - - as they are about the intent of some at the meeting.

No Lambeth '08? That's interesting, if true. Yes, it is ironic that the Abp. apologized for slavery at a place where Arabs engaged in slavery and Christians came to abolish it. It is doubly ironic because there is no unequivocal condemnation of slavery in the Bible but there are repeated condemnations of homosexual activity, a main subject of the meeting, as the Muslims pointed out.

One must really have a sense of humor to appreciate it all.

lh

Yes, some members of the Anglican Communion are having wayward dealings in the areas of human sexuality.

But quite a few of the Islamic Faith seem to be stuck on killing people and blowing things up.

When it comes to "unrest," I believe Sheikh Azan Khalid Hamdani is worried about the wrong people.

Isaac

This article is interesting because it shows how the innovations in ECUSA have damaged our ability to witness to the world. However, this difficulty with witnessing is much more of an issue when we work to evangelize un-churched, de-churched, and lapsed westerners in the US and Europe. The fact is, I'm certain the Muslims wouldn't welcome us even if there were no "gay issue."

However, this obstacle can and will be overcome by our devotion to Jesus Christ. What I mean is that we can introduce Muslims to relationship with Jesus Christ and this saving relationship will hopefully move them from being anti-Gay (and anti-Western) to being pro-Jesus knowing about God's unconditional love for us and knowing that salvation and healing comes from Jesus. God loves practicing homosexuals just the same as he loves orthodox Archbishops. God is also calling everyone to change, to follow His teachings, and He will transform us!

This is how the world see the Anglican Church "the Queers' Church". The Evangelical Church of Tanzania was started by Germans missionaries, when Tanzania was a German colony, today it has 3.500.000 souls, it is conservative as the Missouri Synod, but is in full communion with the Church of Sweden, Elca and the Germans Church, they just don't talk about the subject.

According to this report http://www.centredaily.com/220/story/19027.html , Akinola didn't go there and the Archbishop of Rwanda did not take communion at the service. I am sure that he has a surprise for the revisionists.

If the Lambeth conference is cancelled, then is it not true that the Anglican Communion has ceased to exist? Have I not read over and over again that the Anglican Communion is defined by the repeated gatherings of the Lambeth Primates? To what extent will it be possible to make definitive assessments from these obscure indicators?

Poster: Sinner Posted: 2007/2/18 21:05:00

Ten primates boycotted the eucharist.

The realignment happens tomorrow
===========================

Wanna bet? Wake up from your dreams. There is going to be no realignment, no discipline for TEC, no granting of APO requests, no covenants, no new province, no nothing. Guess what -- we've all been HAD. ROYALLY.

The Revisionists win again. They get to have their gay bishops and get off scott free. They get to have their same-sex unions -- it's all right with the Archbishop of Canterbury and with the rest of the Primates. They get to say that Jesus is not the only way to the Father, and they get away with it scott free.

That's the reality of what is happening before our eyes. No orthodox Anglicanism in North America, no traditional, orthodox biblical values being preserved. You can kiss all of that GOODBYE.

It's over, pal. Get used to it. Anglicanism is DOA. It's up to you now to figure out what to do. Rome or Constantinople?

RevKGL,

RevKGL wrote:
“This article is interesting because it shows how the innovations in ECUSA have damaged our ability to witness to the world. However, this difficulty with witnessing is much more of an issue when we work to evangelize un-churched, de-churched, and lapsed westerners in the US and Europe. The fact is, I'm certain the Muslims wouldn't welcome us even if there were no "gay issue."

Good observation. To Muslims we are simply infidels, not matter our afflictions.

RevKGL wrote:
“However, this obstacle can and will be overcome by our devotion to Jesus Christ. What I mean is that we can introduce Muslims to relationship with Jesus Christ and this saving relationship will hopefully move them from being anti-Gay (and anti-Western) to being pro-Jesus knowing about God's unconditional love for us and knowing that salvation and healing comes from Jesus.”

Yes, all obstacles can be overcome through our faith in Jesus Christ. As far as “hopefully move them from being anti-Gay”, I think you miss the point. The Bible is anti-Gay. Christianity is anti-Gay. So to believe that knowing Jesus Christ will somehow make them change to not be anti-Gay does not fly. God does love us unconditionally, but Christianity is by no means unconditional. Holy Scripture presents us with the conditions we are called to follow as we serve Jesus Christ. Experimenting with condemned behavior and then living continuing in a condemned lifestyle takes one away from the Will of God. That does not prevent God from loving them unconditionally, but does leave them vulnerable to other devices and the influence of Satan. Homosexuality is a behavior. If you remove the sex act, there is no violation of Holy Scripture, but when you remove the condemned sex act, they are no longer homosexuals. We have been granted, graced and cursed with free will. Our sexual activities must fall within the guidance of Holy Scripture. Sex of any kind outside the bonds of marriage is not God’s Will, and we should refrain from it. Engaging in sexual activity is a behavior, and we have the ability to abstain, and are tasked to do so. Are we all sinners? Of course. We know when we fall short of His Guidance. Sometimes we know, and we do it anyway. And yes, He still loves us. But as faithful Christians we should not hold up that which is condemned in Holy Scripture as good and righteous in the eyes of the Lord, for surely it is not. That is simply false teaching, and that is clearly discussed in Holy Scripture. We deserve better from our church leaders, and our Lord Jesus Christ demands more of them. Homosexuality should be treated no differently than any other condemned affliction. The homosexual sex act is deviant and condemned in Holy Scripture. It is NOT a gray area left for our human discernment. If you believe in Jesus Christ and that His Holy Guidance is His Written Word, then you either believe, or you do not. There is a place for ministry to help those that are afflicted while bringing them to Christ. But you do them no favors by holding up their afflictions that are clearly condemned in Holy Scripture as equal and righteous in the eyes of the Lord. How they proceed as their hearts are touched by Jesus is between them and the Lord. For church leaders to guide the church to hold what is condemned in Holy Scripture as equal and righteous in the eyes of the Lord simply shows the lack of faith that the leaders have in Holy Scripture as God’s Written Word. God can and does love them despite their afflictions. I am sure God has a plan for them. We do not know what that plan may be, but we do know that their behavior places them in an inferior position with Christ.

RevKGL wrote:
“God loves practicing homosexuals just the same as he loves orthodox Archbishops. God is also calling everyone to change, to follow His teachings, and He will transform us!”

How can you possibly know that God loves "practicing" homosexuals just the same as He loves Archbishops? That is very arrogant and condescending. What we do know is that unrepentant sinners violate Holy Scripture guidance. God does not “love” their condemned behavior, He loves them in spite of their condemned behavior. All prople are much more than simply their afflictions. Afflictions are to be overcome through faith and following and serving the Lord. Holding up their condemned behavior as good, when it is clearly condemned, harms everyone involved. How can they be moved to change when their leaders are telling them that they have no need, because their behavior is equal and righteous in the eyes of the Lord? Those “leaders” presenting and teaching this viewpoint are false teachers. They lack faith in God’s Written Word. Their Leap of Faith in Jesus Christ has been compromised. They have been led astray. And those that follow those who teach false teachings also may be led astray. They have failed in their calling due to lack of faith. They may feel good, but being a Christian leader is not about feeling good. Christians are called to believe and serve God as perfectly as possible. Calling their behavior good prohibits those afflicted from doing so.

Always Faithful

As God condemns the Communion, Islam stands as God's witness against homosexuality, while homosexuals celebrate the betrayal of ABC in support of Spongism and the apostasy in TEC now spreading throughout the Communion.

Even Henry the VIII would be repulsed by what has happened.

And the Anglican Fathers burn again in their martyrdom -- but to no avail since their witness is dismissed in the name of "the right to orgasm" and "genital expression".

It appears this is a very ugly end to a once great church!

"The fact is, I'm certain the Muslims wouldn't welcome us even if there were no 'gay issue.'"

I can distinguish between radicals and the rest of Islam. Those who were born Muslim but lack any strong devotion to Islam might be reached by the Gospel, but not if the church presenting it approves of abominable behavior. Moreover, Muslims in general, not the radical element, have a superior morality on this issue (and a few others) than modern Christians. It works to our detriment and we should be ashamed.


" . . . and this saving relationship will hopefully move them from being anti-Gay (and anti-Western) to being pro-Jesus . . ."

If "gay" means "practicing homosexual", then anti-gay is pro-Jesus. Christian teaching is easy to understand if explained well. We do not recognize "gays" and "straights". We recognize human beings who are susceptible to a variety of sins. One such temptation is a taste for perversions such as homosexual activity, pedophilia and bestiality. So long as a person strives to reject those temptations they are fighting the good fight. I dare say that there have been many saints so afflicted who nonetheless resisted temptation, persevered and became outstanding examples of the best Christian behavior.

Anti-Western is irrelevant except insofar as we deserve revulsion for exporting the embrace of perversion.

"God loves practicing homosexuals just the same as he loves orthodox Archbishops. God is also calling everyone to change, to follow His teachings, and He will transform us!"

God's love is open to all. Practicing homosexuals reject it in favor of surrendering to evil passions. His teachings are preserved and propagated through the Church and Christian tradition. That teaching does have the power to transform, to drive sins into remission.

lh

"It appears this is a very ugly end to a once great church!"
_______________________________________

Yes, and one end plotted and contrived for a long period of time - to carry that thought further.

I will wait to see what will happen tomorrow - more "tearing", more "rupture", more blood. Remember the sacredness of blood? God remains steadfast in the face of our fickleness. Woe to us. I forsee a Babylonian conquest!

God may yet again use others to fulfill his purposes.

ZachD: Perhaps my good friend your eternal optimism has taken a blow of notice. I understand, been there.

Maybe it is no longer and has not been for a long time God's Church to save. The Idols have been everywhere. Being in The Anglican Communion or being in communion with Canterbury or saving the American church or saving the Canadian church or the Church of England or building up for self edification the AMIA/ACIC/CANA, Bolivian, Ugandan and so on and so on's oversees jurisdictional transplants.

What about the Canadian General Synod? The next Episcopal General Assembly? The next Lambeth?

Enough! It's all self serving bullshit. And yes maybe the Lord sees it that way and has for a long time. It all needs to die. The Church may very well be meant to die in order for Jesus to be exalted.

It in every aspect must be about Jesus or it is worthless dung. Dar ES Salaam was little more.

God speed in Christ Jesus my friends.

Micro+

MicroCar wrote:
"Maybe it is no longer and has not been for a long time God's Church to save."

You raise an excellent point, Micro+--many folks post here with the assumption that it is God's will for TEc and the Anglican Communion to be rescued. That could be a case of seeking to impose our will instead of God's will. And, if it's not God's will, it sets us up for feeling that God "let us down," when He may, in fact, be in the process of destroying something that is evil--so that we can move on to what He has blessed.

Blessings,

chaps

"Only if Henry stuck the turkey leg in her beak to shut her up."

I'm down with that!!!

:)

"the archbishop preached on 1 Cor. 13"

Known as the Chapter of LOVE.

Try this use the concordance of the Bible for the word Love; How many references do you SEE?
Lots and lots of references.

Now do the same for the Koran; How many do you SEE?
ZILCH ! nada! Zero!

Am i correct ?

humbly, gregory





For clarity, the above picture is an Islamic clerk with the sword and not a protestant TEc minister.

For Micro, and Caus.:
My optimism lies on a continuum, I guess.

Those who follow my humble bloggings will hear repeated themes, depending on the uncontrolled state of my mood disorder!
[Psych. nurse making joke.]

Yes, we at once under discipline and perhaps even having Icabod inscribed above our doorposts.

But we within are loved of God, and my grief vacillates between the poor souls within - those dying - those doing the killing - those responsible for overseeing and protecting.

I have lots of room for the "your ass is grass" place, from an eternal perspective. [A Paul test.] We need to be 'finished' so that the Lord will
make all things new!; and it wouldn't be a lie, this time around!

We press on - wherever we are pressed!.....

Buggery is not an unknown practice within the Islamic community. Does anyone here believe to the contrary?

I understand that this is a great hypocrisy; mention it, and you answer with your life!

The incidence of homosexuality occurs everywhere.
(No sin that effects you that is not common to man.)

I can't imagine the horrible pull of the broken inclination of the flesh (powerful enough) and the threat of death if secrecy is betrayed in Sharia-land.

Very well, but then the credibility of their reaction is questionable. Zanzibar is simply their turf and official Anglican visits are unwelcome. The "gay-issue" is a complete red herring. For all we know the're still engaged in practicing slavery there, which they were contentedly doing so well into the 20th century.

May I remind my fellow Christians here of a few things: When the Christian crusaders took Jerusalem they repeated the above picture of beheading en masse, except it was Christians beheading Muslims. There's a famous depiction of the scene.

The "gay-issue" is not a complete red herring. Muslims think that we are morally decadent because we embrace homosexuality as decent. They are right, even by our own traditional standards.

While I disapprove of a number of things in their religion, they certainly have refused to accept feminism and gay rights. We should be men enough to admit that fact.

It is true that there is homosexuality in Islamic cultures; however, it does not become normalized as in the West. It is ruthlessly repressed and does not become culturally accepted. There is theft and murder in the West, it is not culturally accepted either (except in the case of abortion, of course).

lh

lh,

i admit your fact(s).

Now, Did you do a search of the Koran for the word Love?

humbly, gregory

gregory,

I understand your point. Nonetheless I think you seek to prove too much. I have no interest in searching for the word "love" in the Koran. Love means many different things to different people. To perverts it can mean all types of abominations. Try searching for "compassion", "mercy" and "beneficence". You will get more hits.

lh

PS: The Arabic terminology of the Koran is translated in different ways into English. "Love" is a broad term subject to a wide variety of meanings. The above terms I mentioned would be included in the meaning of "love". Let us not forget that in the KJV "faith, hope and love" are translated, "faith, hope and charity".

Zach:

The draft covenant has been released. The preamble affirms the primary role of scripture in Christian faith. The final part includes a reference to setting those apart who no longer conform to the covenant. However, the entire document is written in such broad terms that anyone of intellect could drive the proverbial truck through it. DV should eventually post the whole thing here and the comments will be Legion.

Schori was elected to the standing primates committee by the North Americans.

No discipline, no effective alternative arrangements, no second province,yet , but the final press release/conference is yet to come.

Still refusing to despair,
Causidicus.

deleted, in light of breaking news

lh

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the powerful in those lands conduct themselves in any manner they so please regardless of what they enforce in others or so readily condemn.

Quote:

You forgot Jesus' preference: one's prayer closet.

A friend, an scholar which studies Islam, tells me that it is very common among certain Islamic peoples. I also seem to remember "Turkish prisons" as about the worst place a man could find himself. (There was a movie about that very subject and it was obvious the other convicts and the guards enjoyed homosexual rape of the protagonist.)

"You forgot Jesus' preference: one's prayer closet.'

The oldest (@1600AD) Orthodox church building in America, is located in St Augustine Florida, is the closest thing to a "prayer closet" i have ever seen or experienced...
AWESOME in every direction!!!
i will have to find my links and name before i can relate more on my statement.

humbly, gregory

Wilhelm, My veterans friends that have been there tell me just what you posted but in gross language.

Even to the level of there being a "men's night out" which is really the ones who have same sex desires and that is their night to "practice pleasure" without women...

humbly, gregory

Let us assume for a moment that there is about 3% of the population who will end up developing same sex desires, regardless of the culture, whether here or in Muslim lands. Now, in the West we extoll it as a virtuous lifestyle. It's the subject of a rights movement, a darling cause of the liberal, and incresingly centrist, establishment, and ubiquitous on TV, print, etc.
In Muslim lands, in general, it is openly reviled as filthy, sick and evil, it is seriously repressed by strong social pressures, and often the penalties are violent if a person is arrested for such activity (and they are). Now, granted, it goes on in Muslim lands too. It may be, like alcohol and pork, one of the fashionable vices of the elite. Nonetheless, socially and culturally it is much less of a problem because there is a profound difference in the amount of social toleration granted. In this light, the Muslims' way is superior to ours on this issue. Sodomy used to carry the same stigma in centuries past in the Christian world - - alas, no more.

lh

lh, i failed to say my veteran friends say about the same as you. The point is that the veterans said theis was happening in places where the veterans "freed the people" and for what?

To get all the things you mentioned;
"a rights movement, a darling cause of the liberal, and incresingly centrist, establishment, and ubiquitous on TV, print, etc."

AND a men's night out to practice pleasure.

"Sodomy used to carry the same stigma in centuries past in the Christian world - - alas, no more."

MMMmmm, Still does.
Yet to see the man that can ultimately seperate Sin from stigma.

h' g

| Now do the same for the Koran; How many do you SEE?
ZILCH ! nada! Zero!|

Actually, no, there are 86 occurrences of the word "love" in some form in a well-known English translation of the Quran. Here is one such verse: "Sura 2:177 but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for (the emancipation of) the captives, and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in time of conflicts."

If we are going to critique Islam - and there's plenty of room for that - let's do so knowledgeably.

bpcranmer, Thank you!

And i also take the understanding of Love being expressed by charity, etc. ...

Never said i do not make mistakes and will say i should be more careful. Which is why i wanted an answer from someone else.
i humbly apologise for my error.

Thankful, gregory

ps do you have a link
or are you using a book?

"'Sodomy used to carry the same stigma in centuries past in the Christian world - - alas, no more.'

MMMmmm, Still does.
Yet to see the man that can ultimately seperate Sin from stigma."

Will & Grace, Brokeback Mountain, Elton John, Integrity, virtually the entire academic establishment, Hollywood, etc. No, sodomy definitely and absolutely does not carry the same stigma in the Christian world, or at least what used to be the Christian world, which is still inhabited by many Christians who are subjected to this sick culture.

lh

gregory wrote,

"The point is that the veterans said theis was happening in places where the veterans 'freed the people' and for what?

To get all the things you mentioned;
'a rights movement, a darling cause of the liberal, and incresingly centrist, establishment, and ubiquitous on TV, print, etc.'

AND a men's night out to practice pleasure."

Yes, I often wonder about this myself. It is a very good point. What are we exporting when we export our way of life? Should Christians actually encourage the spreading of the modern American way of life?

What has our political system led to in the West? Are we happy with our societies in terms of traditional values? I think it may be time for Christians to actually rethink our commitment to the form of government that has developed in the United States and the UK in the latter half of the 20th century. It does not foster moral behavior or a moral society at all, in fact, just the opposite.

lh

lionheart wrote:
"What are we exporting when we export our way of life? Should Christians actually encourage the spreading of the modern American way of life?"

The "modern American way of life" demonstrates the folly of promoting excessive individualism and placing one's faith in society, secular laws, and government agencies instead of in God, Scripture, and the Church.

Blessings,

chaps

Lionheart and chaps, thank you for these postings.

i think chaps made the point i was trying to show.

"excessive individualism and placing one's faith in society, secular laws, and government agencies" does NOT equal the "Christian world".

Putting your faith and efforts into God, Scripture, and the Church is the Christian world.

Now i believe we all are on the same page and the questions are rhetorical ones...

Lion heart, You as well as chaps have helped me see and confirm it as true.
May God continue to bless you and those you witness to...

humbly, gregory

Good grief, immense wealth, slaves, a harem full of wives and concubines, full license to amuse oneself with stable boys and all under the auspices of the Islamic Clergy, while hanging, stoning or dismembering the less fortunate for their crimes and iniquities that violate Sharia, this is superior? "Over-there", this isn't considered hypocrisy in the slightest and doesn't raise an eyebrow. Is anyone here suggesting that they'd prefer living under such theocracy?

What we are exporting is Western Civilization which has some downsides. The freedoms it affords come with risks. Unfortunately, there are many who do much to attack and destroy Western Civilization's fabric which was largely woven through our religion. The reason as to why the attack is as old as what is spoken about in in the Book of Genesis through the words of the serpent. Satan's career is telling us that we don't need God. Many buy into this lie or would have us do so to see our demise and fall of Western Civilization.

If western civilization were to be destroyed and supplanted, those remaining in our faith will be either killed or practicing it in secret, as we're increasingly forced now via PC and other Church/State Constitutional "Issue" Frauds promoted under the guise of protecting our liberty.

gregory,

Thank you, you are too kind. We do what we can.

Wilhelm,

I wholeheartedly agree with you that there is much to revile about Islamic civilization. I simply think their "official" attitude toward homosexual activity is superior to ours. We have always had a similar degree of hypocrisy from our official attitude. But now our even our official attitude has embraced homosexuality. That is inferior and thus I think the Muslim critics mentioned above have a point. I don't see that as too controversial since Christians used to have the same attitude before the modern era.

Also, I can separate my faith from American notions of liberty. For most of Christian history, Christians have been fine with slavery and severe punishments for crimes.

lh

Poppycock. Their "official attitude" is worthless on matters they haven't the slightest belief in or intention of practicing. I don't see how one concedes moral high ground on this to them. That this Sheik would adopt such an insulting tone with his rhetoric would be an outrage if it weren't a matter he's certain to be laughing about in private. The villain is more concerned that his subjects exposure to western civilization and Anglicanism may become his undoing fearing the day that they no longer are beholden to him. Apropos, the western slavers never even visited Zanzibar. It was entirely based on Arab trafficking, probably his own papa being a player in that field if not himself. I don't understand Canterbury's contrition on this.

Well, whatever . . .

I'm indifferent to the comments regarding slavery. The stuff about sodomy boils down to this: Anglicanism has become a worldwide disgrace to all Christians, and deservedly so, for its endorsement of sodomy. Unless and until Islam stoops so low as to do the same, it is superior on this particular issue. The fact that some Muslims may be hypocrites on the subject is irrelevant - - all men are hypocrites.

cheers,
lh

Hear Hear

""Anglicanism has become a worldwide disgrace to all Christians, and deservedly so, for its endorsement of sodomy. Unless and until Islam stoops so low as to do the same, it is superior on this particular issue.""

So it's clear that only a few years back my parish removed the "Episcopal" word from everything,

And today it appears the word Anglican is also greatly tarnished.

gregory

Here you are, my brother: http://www.wright-house.com/religions/islam/Quran.html

bpcranmer says;

Here you are, my brother: http://www.wright-house.com/religions/islam/Quran.html


Gregory says THANK YOU! i will review that site, Gots to be better than where i was.

Hey Everybody, Take note and bookmark.

Pax on this Lionheart. I feel certain that I understand your point, perhaps we merely differ in how we value law versus spirit of the law or the intent to live by it's principles.

The reason I remarked on Canterbury's display regarding slavery is that as this gathering must be well aware, TEC and heaven knows who else in Modern Anglicanism have been making a big show of it to the point of studying resolutions to have an annual day of atonement with accompanying liturgy and the payment of "reparitions" to it's black constituents in line with certain social activists who shall be nameless. I find it nothing more than a shakedown and a further bashing of Western Civilization. To be perfectly frank, promoting homosexuality appears to be simply another strand in the same rope they intend on hanging us with. The very idea that a society must not recognize higher moral codes than law of the land is ridiculous and would be entirely fatal to us. It is simply evil and goes way beyond ensuring separation of church and state. Every schoolchild should be shown George Washington's prayer which is succinct on this. The fall of such a civilization, whom God favored, is all layed out to us in the Old Testament of course. Anglican/TEC leadership are another course of "useful idiots" determined to have us "repeat history". Perhaps if they were impressed into hard slavery upon the fall of this civilization, they'd see things differently, and write a new Book of Lamentations. Unfortunately, they'll most likely be dead and will impose this on our grandchildren.

Religion is being effectively banned in the west while simultaneously corrupted from within. Our generations from the late sixties onward have been increasingly dumbed down and are losing their ability to think. It's not difficult to see that this is a full attack on our civilization and how vulnerable we are becoming.

and with thy spirit, Wilhelm,

Yes, I got the feeling we weren't differing on facts or morality just perspective.

a pleasure sparring with you,

lh