It's good to find that these gentlemen are sticking to their guns by refusing communion with PB Jefferts-Schori. I sense a bit of optimism in this report, and I hope that optimism isn't misplaced.

Cennydd

So, it begins.
These seven are not alone.
The report of the sub-group should be rejected or relegated to the research bin, and a new North American province created or alternative arrangements outside TEC recognized and approved for orthodox parishes in the US and Canada.

Lord, have mercy.
Causidicus

Quote:

Bless the primates for their clear theology & witness about Communion.

Would that all the “traditional” bishops still in PECUSA follow their lead, and sacramentally disassociate themselves from the apostates... and this includes not receiving communion at their hands.

These primates understand both the spiritual and the evangelical implications of the act.


pax,
LP

A ray of hope from the Holy Spirit with the rising sun in the east. Yes, much better than the seed of skepticism yesterday.

These saintly men are in our prayers.

LP, AMEN!

oh, and not just Bishops ;
But Priests and Deacons, too.

AND layman and laywomen...
maybe even a bill for moving expenses in the offering plate.

humbly, gregory

So...OK... What exactly have these courageous AB's have to loose by continuing to "step out" or rather "continue the Church" ? Come on..dust the liberal,progressive, unbiblical Church from your ( and ours) sandals... Let Christ 'fill our sails'...and let's get on with our spiritual journey. AB Venables would be the perfect AB for the Reformed Anglican Church. Doc

If this "action" is the extent of what Akinola and his bunch actually DO at Tanzania then I think all of the predictions of the last 48 hours are true.

This meeting thus far seems to have been one big flop.

Of course, it's not over yet, but time is a closing in.

As of one hour ago the Christian Post's leading headline is : "Anglican Report Avoids Schism: CONSERVATIVES SNUBBED!!"

Just click news on the Google home page and search "Anglican" in the news and there it is.

We'll see if the emerging headlines are accurate, but it doesn't look good.

If it does play out as it appears that it is, Katherine Jefferts Schori is sure to be the Rock Star of TEC and their liberal left-wing saviour, ready to lead TEC even further into the Gnostic Abyss.

These men are all that stand between the faithful of the Anglican Community and the morass of apostacy rampant in the denomination. We must continuously hold them up in prayer.

Not to be disrespectful to the Anglican Global South... but this is NOT enough.

Will it be the future testimony that when it came time to take a stand for the Gospel the answer will be "We didn't take communion with them?!?!

I continue to wait and pray! Many years ago my Spiritual Director told me, "Put your faith in God, not in the Church; for the Church will let you down every time." How true that was and is.

Please dear God, let there be some GOOD news today!

John Riebe+

I suppose, in a certain light, this is somewhat encouraging. Of course, nothing has changed. They stated before that they were in a state of broken or "impaired" communion long before today.

I counted seven primates above. What about the others who have said before that they were not in "full" communion with TEC. Weren't there 22 at one point?

lh

Hey, Doc! It looks like you've just coined the name for a new orthodox Anglican province: "The Reformed Anglican Church!" GOOD! And I like your choice of an archbishop, the Most Rev Gregory Venables....a fine man!

Now, let's put that proposal in motion! How about it, your Graces? Are you going to help us or not....or are we going to have to take matters in our own hands and do it ourselves?

PAY ATTENTION HERE!

Cennydd

Maybe someone can help me out with this...
Why would the GS Primates make a statement to the media about not sharing Eucharist with looney lib Schori but did not address the media afer Day 2?
I think that this is why there is so much wild specualtion about what happened. If they don't address the media (which is mostly liberal), then the drive by media is compelled to draw their own conclusions.
If the GS Primates agreed not to talk to the media until the meetings are over, that was a big mistake. Too many times, I have seen liberals go to disgusting lengths to manipulate an all too willing media to get their hedonistic message out while conservatives take the "high road" and do not respond. We are all called upon by Christ to stand up for the truth. We constantly are losing the public relations war by not responding or interacting with the media.
We all know our mission as Christians is to bring people to Christ in order to save souls. Playing the public relations game is another tool to achieve this. There is no solice in taking the high road when hedonistic liberals spew lies and untruth.
I do not claim to understand what is going on at these meetings. I am just a layman from an orthodox diocese. However, being a marketing professional, I would tell these GS Primates as well as my bishop that we need to stand up, and use the media to get Christ's message out as effectively as the liberals do. That would go a long way for those of us who are worried about the happenings of the other day.

Is that all?

Akinola, Kolini etc.

What. I can't hear you

It's about Jesus, remember.

Do not even speak with those who deny the total and unique sufficiency of Jesus the Messiah. To demonstrate that missing the odd eucharist with the pagan deceptors as meaningfull is an insulte.

I guess you've got your big buck comfy white upper middle class US congegations tithing now so it is enough (ie., Falls Church - CANA and Truro - AMIA).

Shame, Shame,

19 " I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds"
REV. 2: 19-22

DID YOU HEAR "that commit adultery with her"

Oh exuse me, that can't be you, you have an off shore Arch Bishop and Primate. Never mind, here is your paded pew in your climate controlled sanctuary that allows you to thumb your nose at the local TEC/ACC Bishop.

Woopee.

Quick some more money to Central and Eastern Africa. Ya, that will do it.

Puke


Micro+

My, my, aren't we quick to jump to conclusions.

This report appears that none of those involved in this report have changed their stripes at all.

Keep the faith as we say our prayers.

We know the end of the story; we just don't know how we will get there.

Blessings,
Smoke+

Hang on, brother Micro+.

Let us remind ourselves of what the primates can and cannot do.

They can declare their own national churches out of communion with PECUSA.

They can refuse to take communion with PECUSAn apostates.

They can offer jurisdictional refuge to fleeing PECUSA parishes.

All this they have done.

What they cannot do is, by fiat, kick out PECUSA from the Anglican Communion. That requires the ABC & ABY.

Nor can they, at primates meetings, cast more than one vote... no matter how much they may lobby others' votes... one vote on whether or not to accept PECUSA's response to Windsor; one vote on how to discipline PECUSA.

Nor can they force the ABC or Anglican Communion to set up a parallel jurisdiction in the U.S... though they can, for all practical purposes, do exactly that by putting together the different GS parishes under their purvue into one body by setting.

Nor can they force the Anglican Communion as a whole to recognize such a jurisdiction, even if they set it up on their own.

The fact is that those primates, who have broken communion with PECUSA and offered jurisdictional oversight, have already done all they can re. PECUSA.

Whatever comes out of Tanzania is necessarily a compromise, as it requires sufficient votes from all primates there, and was never going to be anything else.


The only other thing these primates could do would be to leave the Anglican Communion (such as it is).

But why should they?

Sure, the "traditionalists" are in the minority in the U.S. and Canada and a few other places. But, globally, the revisionists are in the minority in the Anglican Communion.

Why should the majority walk away from the minority?

It makes sense for the primates to take the "long view" vis a vis the Communion, to stay in it, and go through the multi-year process of working out a new Covenant-Communion which will exclude the revisionists... even if that doesn't mean a full-fledged disciplining of PECUSA from the current Anglican Communion -- which is (by its very structure) toothless & impotent anyway.


When it comes right down to it, the USA is not their problem. It's Episcopalians' problems.

They've offered oversight and support and prayers. They've voiced what concern they can in the Communion meetings. They've announced their impared & broken spiritual relationship with the apostates.

That's all they can do -- and they have better and more pressing things to do in their own lands than sit around ringing their hands over the apostates in PECUSA, like the current Episcopal fence-sitters who are still in PECUSA. (And this, by definition, includes +Duncan and +Schofield [to date] and +Iker and all the other "Windsor" bishops).


As long as you stay in PECUSA, you're in PECUSA.

And it's not the primates' job to change that -- nor, indeed, can they.

It's up to the "traditional" Episcopalians themselves.


So, look to see a few people see the light and leave PECUSA for the Continuing churches or the AMiA/GS.

But also look to see the majority of fence sitters try to put a hopelessly unrealistic optomistic spin on whatever comes out of Tanzania (be it a little or a lot) and use that as an excuse to draw yet another line in the sand; to come up with yet another rationalization for staying put... to put off any action until yet another vacuuous deadline (e.g. Lambeth 2009).

Because, when it comes right down to it, those fence-sitters still in PECUSA after 40 years of increasing apostasy simply cannot bring themselves to break away from that apostate institution, cannot take seriously the spiritual danger of being in communion with those who have denied Christ -- because they cannot bring themselves to leave the comfortable parish, or the pension plan, or the security, or the prestige... or whatever.


Most of them are happy to sit on the fence and gripe and claim that they are "standing firm"... but few of them are willing to do the one thing that actually counts... leave PECUSA.


So, no, don't blame the primates for what's happening in PECUSA.

They have, quite frankly, done all that they can.

And it's not their problem.

It's PECUSA's.


pax,
LP

Prayers are requested.

Network Leadership Calls for Patience and Continued Prayer
for Primates’ Meeting

Pittsburgh, PA -- In a short communication to the Anglican Communion Network office today, Bishop Duncan said he wanted to thank all members of the Network for the tremendous outpouring of prayer support this week. He added that he was who he needed to be during his presentation to the primates of the Anglican Communion which took place on Thursday, February 15 in Tanzania.

"Please keep praying for Bishop Duncan, and everyone involved in this critical moment in the history of Anglicanism. There is still much work to be done. We must be patient and trust that God’s good purposes will be accomplished in Tanzania," said the Rt. Rev. Jack Iker, Network Bishop of the diocese of Fort Worth.
As is customary, the primates of the Anglican Communion and all others participating in this meeting have been asked not to comment on the meeting itself until its conclusion. The meeting ends on February 19.

Finally! All I had been reading so far was about more "dialogue" and "consultation", about how TEC had met the "spirit of the Windsor Report"

lapittengr wrote,

"It makes sense for the primates to take the "long view" vis a vis the Communion, to stay in it, and go through the multi-year process of working out a new Covenant-Communion which will exclude the revisionists... even if that doesn't mean a full-fledged disciplining of PECUSA from the current Anglican Communion -- which is (by its very structure) toothless & impotent anyway."

I think essentially you are correct, but I wonder the following:

What is a "Communion" that is not in communion with one another? I mean, we talk about the "Anglican Communion". It seems that all it amounts to at this point is a continued commitment to dialogue. Is it not time to be done with the whore? What precisely is preventing the Global South Primates from walking away from TEC and anyone who remains in communion with TEC? It is certainly not Christianity that is preventing them. Christianity commands it.

Nonetheless, you're right. All that those who call themselves "orthodox" need to do to have peace and regain some Christian integrity is to exit any church that is in communion with TEC, directly or indirectly. Then there is no need to care in the slightest whether this or that meeting goes your way or whether someone "finally does something."

lh

Quote:

A wonderful and succint statement. It counters the easy believism (and hypocrisy)of the revisionists who say beliefs don't matter around the "table" but matter everywhere else. Just ask the marginalized and persecuted traditionalists in TEC.

Beliefs matter and they can and do create divisions. They are supposed to.

Matthew 10:34-38

34"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

But only seven of them stood fast. Sigh.

Blessings,

Neal

With all the handwringing that has gone on, I wanted to express thanks to those who, before this meeting ever began, warned us not to expect the GS bishops to call down fire and brimstone.

This is Machaivellian POLITICS, a dirty dogfight, an argument with fools . . . and I'm willing to trust the wisdom of those who choose not to play "Scribes vs. Pharisees" to please the headline writers. To lapittengr especially: I think you've identified the essential problem — those monkeys in the pews: "See-no-evil," "Hear-no-evil," and "Speak-no-evil."

de la Cuervoria

Well lapitteng for once I disagree with you on a couple of points.

I think the reasoning for leaving the Anglican Communion is in fact required action by the GS.
First, the CoE, and by acknowledgement the ABC, are revisionist and only behind TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada in their race away from the faith once delivered.
God’s instructions are first and foremost to disassociate immediately from false teachings. Only the Continuers have obeyed scripture.
Secondly, the traditionalists have never won as all the controls of the theological and sexual agenda are with the revisionists. For traditionalists to stay would put them in a miserable, never ending hell of dealing with the revisionists. Who would choose to go to Hell and be tormented for life, when you could be free. “Stay in for the long term and work out a Covenant-Communion over the years.” We have done that for over 30 years and you can clearly see where that has gotten anyone. NOWHERE! From 40 traditionalist Diocesan Bishops in 1976 to 3 in 2006. The end is unbelievably near and those remaining will soon beg for death. But what about their flocks? Recent history says that if the leaders don’t leave, the parishioners will leave individually, and the more that leave the faster the balance of power will shift within those few dioceses. That’s what happened to the other 37 bishops. In research I did over 15 years ago I found that the vast majority of people who left TEC over those 15 years went on to no church. Sleeping in on Sunday or golf occupy the majority now. They were tired of the battles, and the human spirit is weak, and they were lost to Christ.
Most of the ACN/Windsor/etc. bishops are spineless and are not going to leave TEC. Not in your wildest dreams.
Nigeria alone has 30% of all Anglicans, and add to that other orthodox and you are well into the majority. The insignificant US, Canadian, New Zealand and CoE revisionists Average Sunday Attendence (ASA) total is at most under 5 million. That leaves 72 million potential members for whatever the traditionalist/orthodox Anglicans are called.
But it does no good to talk about leaving or changing things. Talk is cheap. Action is all that counts. Absolutely, nothing else.
As you have often stated the Continuing Churches (High/Broad/Low) would be an ideal solution, but most of the contributors on this website ignore the best solution at hand, and with so many new parishioners so much could be accomplished for Christ. But, as you and I have rightly said before the vast majority of traditionalists/orthodox still in TEC will once again justify to themselves that they will compromise and talk for another 5 years until all of them are gone. Listen for the excuses for staying when they soon start. It will be guaranteed to make you cry. I saw all of this 30 years ago and these people don’t learn.
Who amongst the traditionalists/orthodox would not leave and join a group representing 50% or 70% or 90% of the world’s Anglicans. As it stands now you have a situation of everyone having to do everything individually and in total isolation. This is not right. The GS doesn’t have to wring their hands, they just have to confront TEC/ACC/CoE and display themselves as a safe haven. Believe me the GS will be rewarded in heaven, and, I have no doubts, the generosity of those they shelter over time.
The truth is that as long as you are part of the Anglican Communion you will be dominated by the revisionists until every last one of you is exterminated. And that won’t be very long in coming.
The ABC has chosen to side with his revisionists in destroying the traditionalists: the vast majority of the church. No matter what the outcome of this farce of a meeting, the ABC and his group have already said no issues will be decided at Lambeth 2008, only prayer, friendship and discussion. This is the last chance.

When I posted yesterday I was very frustrated with Akinola and his friends, but after read this report I am feeling better.

Oh lionheart, well said:

"All that those who call themselves "orthodox" need to do to have peace and regain some Christian integrity is to exit any church that is is in communion with TEC, directly or indirectly, directly or indirectly. Then there is no need to care in the slightest whether this or that meeting goes your way or whether someone "finally does something."

Yes "...directly or indirectly...in communion with TEC... regain some Christian integrity is to exit..."
"...regain some Christian integrity is to exit..."
"..regain some Christian integrity is to exit..."
". regain some Christian integrity is to exit...
" regain some Christian integrity is to exit

Don't wait for the sake of the warm comfort of your padded suburban TEC, ACC, CoE or GS "can't wait for the coffee hour so I can socialise and feel good with my Network leader about our righteous congregation and it's not so pensionless clergy"

Micro+

This is indeed the last chance for the traditional point of view in North America and probably Europe.

As to the GS either they immediately reject revisionism in all its guises and provide a safe haven for the remainder in North America and the British Isles or they will find themselves fighting the same vile tactics, techniques, and battles in their countries that have occurred in North America. In fact, the revisionists and the gaybies are already trying to organize in Nigeria and have a base of operations in South Africa.

There are a couple of days/hours left, men. What will you do? Act and live free or compromise, again, and die a little more?

Causidicus,

Your posts are always keen and fun to read. My humble question - how does one die a little more when already dead like TEC? I must be missing something...

As long as Njongonkulu in South Africa(SA) is flapping his lips, the gaybies and revisionists will have their willing African manservant doing their bidding. I pray that +++Akinola will one day take *Njonjo* by the ear and let him *have it*.

Humbly,

Tikhon

Thank you Tikhon, it is good to know that someone notices. I was referring to the GS bishops who apparently failed to join the "magnificent seven" in refusing communion with the rainbow caped TECan high priestess.

I still look forward with great interest to the covenant the primates are now working on. There is so much it might contain or, so much it may not contain. It should be released Monday.

YHS
Causidicus

It's time.....

Rise up, O men of God!
Have done with lesser things,
give heart and soul and mind and strength
to serve the King of kings.

Rise up, O men of God!
The Church for you doth wait;
her strength unequal to her task;
rise up, and make her great!

Lift high the cross of Christ!
Tread where his feet have trod;
as brothers of the Son of Man,
rise up, O men of God!

-William P. Merrill, 1911

As the news slowly begins to trickle out of Dar es Salaam, the only comment I find myself wanting to make is to repeat the words of T.S. Elliot's in his poem "The Hollow Men":

"This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper."

Sorry everyone, but with the exception of the seven primates who refused to take communion with Schori, I see absolutely nothing positive coming out of this meeting.

Agreed.

The "Anglican Experiment" is finished...caught up in the skirts of Paris Hilton and the "reality-based community."

The only question now is whither the belivers in God's word.

Craig.

In a time when significant action is needed, we get this.

Big deal.

-Jim+

Causidicus,

I'm with ya on the results of that *covenant*.

Humbly,

Tikhon

These are brave and honest men -they understand the meaning of Eucharist. We should all pray they continue in thier outlook and faith.

Amen Rafael,


These seven are indeed admirable.

But if this is all that the traditionalists in the AC can offer then what does this mean for the AC?

I'm sure that it means what God means for it to mean whether our desires for a realigned AC are realized or not.

Blessings,

Neal

I think the time when suspense was reasonable has passed. For those who have seen the unbroken trajectory of Anglicanism over the last 30+ years, the outcome was not in too much doubt. The only real variable was what the GS primates were going to do. Did ++Akinola have enough backing to cause the Anglican Communion to exercise discipline. The answer to that, the only real question, has been given: No. It's he and six others.

I suppose there could be some radical surprise in the mix. But consider whether anything with teeth is going to come out of a meeting where 27 out of 34 primates present are willing to take communion with the PB of TEC. It ain't likely.

lh

I had a hope that some white horse would gallop in and smite the vipers, but it seems no anti-venom at this point can cure the patient's invenimation. I do not think we should blame Akinola & Company for any shortcommings at the end of this. In the end, they did what they could and it was up to us in the U.S. to do our bit. Akinola is a man, just like you and me, and the communion, rather, this Anglican Fellowship has benefits including wealth, which as much as we would all like to turn away from, does entail some sort of secutiy from uncertainty. Akinola first and foremost is looking out for his Jurisdiction, his Nigerian Church. I don't think he is going to do anything that may hurt his own flock. He is a noble man, but he is a man, and he isn't perfect. So just because we loose hope, let's not blame him. I truly believe he has tried very hard to help us in our plight. The forces set against God's Church truly are powerful, and while we are not under the threat of crucifixion, the message of salvation is perverted and threatens those who hear the whisper of the serpent's forked tongue. What should we do? I'm going to pray. And then pray some more. And then see what has been said at this meetings conclusion. It is hard to have faith in such difficult times...


"The kingdoms of Experience
In the precious wind they rot
While paupers change possessions
Each one wishing for what the other has got
And the princess and the prince
Discuss what's real and what is not
It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden" -- Bob Dylan