DAR2007: FROM MY EAR TO YOURS...
By David W. Virtue in Dar es Salaam
www.virtueonline.org
2/16/2007
It's a waiting game. Speculation is rife about what is going to happen next. The Indian Ocean shimmers in the midday heat; the sand is hot and the pool uncomfortably warm as reporters sip water and beer while waiting, waiting, waiting. Behind closed doors, the Primates are in theological combat mode trying to hammer out a Covenant they can all live with.
Round one went to the liberals. The Windsor Report got a two-thirds rating pass by the Primates, and so, on the surface, it looks as though the liberals, who presently have the high moral ground, have nowhere to go but higher.
FROM MY EAR TO YOURS...
But this morning, at breakfast, an excited orthodox bishop told VOL that "it ain't over till the fat lady sings", and "think Rocky Balboa". So, surprises are still in store. The Global South archbishops have not yet mounted their main offensive; there is more to come. The line has only been breached temporarily; the ecclesiastical Maginot Line is still holding.
The clamp down on information is affecting even the Episcopal News Service, the official organ of The American Episcopal Church, whose reporters are no more privy to inside information than the rest of the media herd. Information control by the Anglican Communion News Service is total. Even their media office is off limits to the media. Some conservative bloggers, who THINK they know what is going on, know nothing. The next public statements will be on the much heralded COVENANT recommended by the Windsor Report which specifies more exactly what it means to be an Anglican. The Covenant goes something like this: If you sign on you receive membership status; if you don't sign on you get associate status. There is no such thing as formal excommunication in Anglicanism; that is far too unAnglican. Voluntary withdrawal is what was asked of The Episcopal Church, which somehow means that one freely chooses not to be included!
If the liberal Anglican Consultative Council pushes that too hard they might find their funding withheld from The Episcopal Church putting them in a Catch-22 situation.
ALSO present here, among the watchers and would be movers and shakers, are members of the pro-gay British organization, Changing Attitudes, whose leader, the Rev. Colin Coward, (his Nigerian counterpart is with him) is doing his best to keep a high profile among the archbishops. Already he has been seen sitting poolside with the liberal Southern Africa Archbishop Ndungane and having a brief encounter with Nigerian Archbishop Peter Akinola which found its way into the ultra-liberal Guardian newspaper whose Writer, Stephen Bates, loves to needle conservatives and "homophobic" Global South Primates for their inability to see the new reality of homoerotic behavior and ordain it to the episcopacy.
When Akinola happened into the lobby of the White Sands Hotel on his way to seeing his fellow Nigerian archbishop, he was accosted by gays and lesbians and quickly withdrew, but not in time for paparazzi photographers catching him with his hands held high in a "no comment" mode. Gays quickly pounced on this bit of theatre trying to make of it something that it wasn't. Oh, the pain of the archbishop not talking to THEM, when it has been made abundantly clear to all of us that the only public statement from the archbishops would be the daily press briefings.
ONE factor that is consistently being overlooked by the media is the reality of 14 new archbishops making a first time appearance. Whatever the Global South Primates have in mind, these new comers are not going to shoot themselves in the foot, knee or groin, and vote for schism. That isn't going to happen.
Of course, there are always silly American blogger theologians, some conservative, who make statements like, "the situation is redeemable but the archbishops are moving close to the brink" - sheer double speak. The situation is NOT redeemable, the Communion is doing what it always does - limp along with more "conversation", more "covenants", endless "listening" and the new antidote to absolute decision making, "hermeneutics" - the science of contextualizing sodomy. This is living proof that sodomy is an abomination in the Anglican Communion which it can apparently live with, merely an anathema, hardly a communion breaker.
Oddly enough, liberals are not claiming total victory even as conservatives feel betrayed by yesterday's results. There were no high fives among liberals. There is a sense, even by them, that it is not over and more surprises might be in store. Also what they want is FULL and TOTAL acceptance of their lifestyle, not a half-hearted acceptance or non-acceptance by a large portion of the communion. They want their sexuality fully embraced, and not in coded covenants that embrace them but not their behavior. As Mrs. Schori's aide, Robert Williams, said, "the spirit of Anglicanism will prevail here, and there will be a middle way forward. She will not waver in her stand for justice and inclusion of all people in the Body of Christ."
We shall know more ere long.
FROM J. GARY L'HOMMEDIEU... VOL Correspondent
ON DAY THREE the reporters have become the news. Not that any of them are doing or saying anything newsworthy per se. All of them seem to be speculating on what has been done and said so far by the Primates, along with what has not been done or said. Put it all together and... what does it mean?
Everyone is struggling with the same bewilderment: what did last night's press briefing really amount to? It sure sounded like the liberal consortium got a pass on everything that mattered. Based upon the Primates' genteel language regarding TEC's Windsor response, one can only come away wondering what all the fuss was about to begin with.
Among the reporters there are gays and straights, liberals and conservatives. The story, so far, is not the story any of them came to cover. Everyone came for the fireworks display, and it seems, in a way, everyone is more or less disappointed.
Conservatives appear a bit shell-shocked. It sounded last night like the liberal Primates outfoxed the Global South who, for whatever reason, gave in. No one knows why they might have given in, or to whom or what. Theories abound, both fearful and fanciful.
Sitting at breakfast, I commented that yesterday's meeting sounded like a sell-out. One colleague said emphatically that he thought that was much too strong a word. He couldn't quite tell me why he thought so.
Everyone is puzzling over the same data. We have made a point to verify that we were at the same meeting last night. It is reassuring to know we all saw and heard the same things. People are dazed, in denial. There is an unspoken refrain of "Say it ain't so" ringing in the ears of the orthodox.
I have also observed what might be called a continuum of hope. The scenario of yesterday's meeting, as it was presented to the press, can be interpreted to justify despair, hope, or triumph, depending on where you line up on the theological spectrum. Conservatives in their diverse interpretations are summoning personal effort to read into them their own hopes.
Another way to say this: they're grasping at straws. From the conservative perspective yesterday's Primates' meeting could be staged as "Rowan Williams and the Fudge Factory." A day later, conservatives are speculating on what sort of rabbit might be pulled out of a hat.
There's a message there. What reporters have gleaned is that, based upon the summary of yesterday's meeting, it would be illogical to anticipate that the orthodox Primates will deliver on their earlier rhetoric. Something else has to be in the mix. Some dramatic surprise, some ace up a sleeve, something almost magical would have to be revealed in an eleventh hour drama.
This is a formula for hope. Conservatives in the wings at Dar es Salaam are summoning hope that the orthodox Primates will surprise them, even though it looks like the moment has passed even for surprises. Yesterday's meeting has launched us into free fall. Sophisticated analysis quickly turns into wild fantasy, and it's hard to tell when one has switched from one to the other. Perhaps, the one thing we're all trying to deny is that the Primates' Meeting could, in the final analysis, prove to be a non-event after all.
END
| Poster | Thread |
|---|---|
| Romans828 | Posted: 2007/2/16 13:26 Updated: 2007/2/16 13:43 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/27 From: Posts: 244 |
I thought that many of those comments yesterday were big over-reactions, based on preliminary results as reported by a liberal Primate.
We will just need to wait a few more days and see what becomes of this conference. I've suspected, since first hearing the bad news, that Akinola is as head-strong on this issue as ever, but with so many new primates at the meeting, he doesn't have an easy majority to call upon. |
| gregory | Posted: 2007/2/16 13:40 Updated: 2007/2/16 13:40 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4423 |
Romans828, i agree with your post and like i said yesterday i think Bagdag Bob was coaching the liberal revisionists...
humbly, gregory ![]() |
| gregory | Posted: 2007/2/16 13:59 Updated: 2007/2/16 14:56 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4423 |
"an excited orthodox bishop told VOL that "it ain't over till the fat lady sings",
and "think Rocky Balboa". " ![]() gregoryps ""Everyone came for the fireworks display, and it seems in a way everyone is more or less disappointed."" OKAY ya want fireworks, Try this link; Click here and then keep clicking |
| JohnRiebe | Posted: 2007/2/16 14:25 Updated: 2007/2/16 14:25 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/4/27 From: Bakersfield CA Posts: 11 |
"For how many years have people said: "wait for the next meeting of Primates. There will be a bombshell"? Is this more of the same? More "listening"? Meanwhile, the persecution of the orthodox continues."
I continue to hope and pray. Time and opportunity are slipping away - if not gone already. Dear God, let there be some GOOD news today. John Riebe+ |
| lionheart | Posted: 2007/2/16 14:36 Updated: 2007/2/16 14:36 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/19 From: Posts: 354 |
"There is no such thing as formal excommunication in Anglicanism; that is far too unAnglican."
"People are dazed, in denial." I'm not sure what to say. I suppose it's a good idea to wait til the end of this meeting, since at least the meeting will have a firm end date. If the first statement above is true, then to that precise extent Anglicanism is unChristian and unBiblical. The second statement is doubtless true. All that is required of one or more primates as a little bit of courage. Not the kind of courage necessary to face the lions or Muslims or to keep the faith when being tortured to death or having loved ones tortured to death in front of you. This is not heroic courage we're talking about, just common courage. Perhaps the primates will suprise you, read from the biblical texts concerning excommunication and cease communication of any sort with the revisionists unless and until they choose to explicitly repent. Let us hope so. lh |
| Romans828 | Posted: 2007/2/16 14:41 Updated: 2007/2/16 14:41 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/27 From: Posts: 244 |
I, too, regret that rapid excommunication appears off the table in Tanzania, for TEC certainly deserves it.
At this point, what we can hope for is a strongly worded, orthodox covenant, and every province can decide for itself whether it wants to sign on. It may take until GC2009 (good grief!), but TEC may simply have to make its own decision about being in or out of the Anglican Communion. |
| gregory | Posted: 2007/2/16 14:46 Updated: 2007/2/16 14:46 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4423 |
Romans828; i received the following from a friend and thought of you and all here and our situation;
February 16, 2007 – God’s Purposes in Our Difficulties – Romans 8:28-29 -28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. ' If we could choose the number of difficulties we want to face in a month, most of us would pick zero. Yet, God sees value in difficult times. Through His mighty power, He uses trials to accomplish His plans. One of God’s purposes for us is a growing intimacy in our relationship with Him. But He knows we struggle to put Him first over our own interests. Many of us place higher priority on family and friends than on companionship with God. For others, finances, work, or even personal pleasures interfere. When the Lord sees that our attention is drifting away from Him, He might use hardships to draw us back so we’ll refocus. Another reason God allows difficulties is to conform us to the image of Jesus. Pain is a tool that brings areas of ungodliness to the surface. God also uses it to sift, shape, and prune us. The sanctification process, the building of Christlike character into our lives, starts at salvation and ends with our last breath. A third purpose for stressful circumstances is to reveal true convictions. Our faith is tested in tough times. It’s easy to say, “God is good,” when things are peaceful. But when everything goes wrong, what do we believe about Him? Do our words and actions reveal an attitude of trust? King David endured many heartaches: a disintegrating family, personal attacks, and betrayal by close friends. But through his trials, he gained deeper intimacy with God, stronger faith, and more godly character. Won’t you let God accomplish His purposes in your present situation? prayerfully submitted, gregory |
| db4him | Posted: 2007/2/16 14:49 Updated: 2007/2/16 14:49 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/19 From: Posts: 423 |
This may be all we can expect out of this largely liberal gathering. The real fireworks may have to come afterwards.
I cannot believe that when it's all said and done, the bishops who have been so faithful to the orthodox cause to this point will sell out. |
| Smoke | Posted: 2007/2/16 14:53 Updated: 2007/2/16 14:53 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/27 From: Diocese of Dallas Posts: 93 |
Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus:
The faithful need to stop speculating and pray more. Is it God's Church or not? Wait, my friends until it is over before the analysis begins and we hear back from Bishop Duncan and others. Life is too short to base the future of the Communion on speculation. I am often reminded that opinions are like noses, everyone has one! Blessings, Smoke+ ![]() |
| MicroCar | Posted: 2007/2/16 14:57 Updated: 2007/2/16 14:57 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/6 From: Posts: 391 |
Is that all?
Akinola, Kolini etc. What. I can't hear you It's about Jesus, remember. Do not even speak with those who deny the total and unique sufficiency of Jesus the Messiah. To demonstrate that missing the odd eucharist with the pagan deceptors as meaningfull is an insulte. I guess you've got your big buck comfy white upper middle class US congegations tithing now so it is enough (ie., Falls Church - CANA and Truro - AMIA). Shame, Shame, 19 " I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds" REV. 2: 19-22 DID YOU HEAR "that commit adultery with her" Oh exuse me, that can't be you, you have an off shore Arch Bishop and Primate. Never mind, here is your paded pew in your climate controlled sanctuary that allows you to thumb your nose at the local TEC/ACC Bishop. Woopee. Quick some more money to Central and Eastern Africa. Ya, that will do it. Puke Micro+ |
| gregory | Posted: 2007/2/16 15:02 Updated: 2007/2/16 15:02 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4423 |
db4him, TRUE -->"The real fireworks may have to come afterwards."
For fireworks right now CLICK below; http://www.fireworkspop.com/Liberty_.htm gregory |
| Smoke | Posted: 2007/2/16 15:07 Updated: 2007/2/16 15:07 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/27 From: Diocese of Dallas Posts: 93 |
Patience is still a virtue. Please pray.
Network Leadership Calls for Patience and Continued Prayer for Primates’ Meeting Pittsburgh, PA -- In a short communication to the Anglican Communion Network office today, Bishop Duncan said he wanted to thank all members of the Network for the tremendous outpouring of prayer support this week. He added that he was who he needed to be during his presentation to the primates of the Anglican Communion which took place on Thursday, February 15 in Tanzania. "Please keep praying for Bishop Duncan, and everyone involved in this critical moment in the history of Anglicanism. There is still much work to be done. We must be patient and trust that God’s good purposes will be accomplished in Tanzania," said the Rt. Rev. Jack Iker, Network Bishop of the diocese of Fort Worth. As is customary, the primates of the Anglican Communion and all others participating in this meeting have been asked not to comment on the meeting itself until its conclusion. The meeting ends on February 19. |
| Romans828 | Posted: 2007/2/16 15:19 Updated: 2007/2/16 15:27 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/27 From: Posts: 244 |
Gregory, thank you for the thoughtful posting. I had a feeling early on that Romans 8:28 was going to be a great, continual reminder to use for the current struggle in the Anglican Communion.
Truthfully, I woke up in a very bad mood this morning, wondering how things in Tanzania were going to get even worse. It is hard to remain faithful when depressed. One thing that the drama of the last three years has done for me, is point out that there really isn't a church on this planet where I think I'd be really satisfied. I mostly agree with Orthodox theology insofar as I understand it, but I find it culturally stifling and evangelically dead as a doornail. I agree with much of the ecclesiastical work of Roman Catholicism, but I don't think I can ever agree to its theology, especially its understanding of the role of authority in theology, and besides my experience with the Roman clergy is that most of them are just plain mean. No pietism there that I can find. I don't care for most Protestantism because I'm not a sola scriptura kind of Christian, and I need liturgy and other things that Anglicanism can offer. I think the tiny Anglican denominations don't provide enough room for me to grow, and they beg the question of what it really means to be Anglican when they're out of communion with mainstream Anglicans. For over 20 years I've been hoping that the via media really works, but now I'm more skeptical of that than ever. Things like Pentecostalism and Mormonism are so wacky that they're not even on the table for me. So where does this leave me? I find myself in search of a kind of Catholicism that has both freedom and energy, size, piety and a dependable theology. That church doesn't exist, as far as I can tell. So I have to settle for something less. Anglicanism isn't perfect, but if the Primates in Tanzania fail us, it looks like I'll have to pick my poison. I'm not really that pessimistic, just dissatisfied with the whole ecclesiastical landscape. BTW, I'm a UF alumnus. You live near Gainesville? |
| gregory | Posted: 2007/2/16 15:28 Updated: 2007/2/16 15:28 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4423 |
Romans828, "I'm a UF alumnus. You live near Gainesville?" YES! i was the EE Lab Manager for years receiving my paycheck from UF...
Most importantly though is where i spend alot of my satisfied cyberspace time; Start here; http://www.stmichaeloc.org/index.cfm?pageID=9 Be sure to click on helpful links and reading list. Blessings, gregory |
| Isaac | Posted: 2007/2/16 15:30 Updated: 2007/2/16 15:31 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/3/1 From: Texas Posts: 595 |
"Hermaneutics"
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| Howell | Posted: 2007/2/16 15:45 Updated: 2007/2/16 15:45 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/13 From: Colorado Posts: 441 |
"Take the LONG view"? "Wait until Lambeth 2009?" Good grief, people. I'm 69; how many more years do I have? If TEC now says it no longer believes Jesus is the only Way to salvation, what ELSE WORSE does TEC have to do to warrant either a complete break from them or a complete shunning of them? By the way, Community shunning USED to be a very effective tool.
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| sentinel | Posted: 2007/2/16 16:01 Updated: 2007/2/16 16:06 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/11 From: Posts: 261 |
"There is no such thing as formal excommunication in Anglicanism"
Then even if this can be cleaned up the same mess will occur all over again. "that is far too unAnglican" And far too unscriptural. ![]() That being said, though things the initial reports have not been complete promising, I do believe that Abp. Akinola is not one to back down. |
| Romans828 | Posted: 2007/2/16 16:06 Updated: 2007/2/16 16:06 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/27 From: Posts: 244 |
As I've always understood it, there IS such a thing as formal excommunication in Anglicanism. The Bishop has the prerogative to deny communion to any unrepentent, notorious sinner.
I still don't see anything unAnglican about booting out TEC, but it looks like we'll just have to be patient and see what they come up with. |
| Solomon | Posted: 2007/2/16 16:09 Updated: 2007/2/16 16:09 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/1 From: Posts: 7 |
Hmmm....a great deal of the "same ole, same ole" again rears its ugly perverted head. Could someone remind me why we actually had hope in the Global South Primates? Did we really have any hope there? Perhaps what we had was only a desperate last gasp of wishes that never had a snowballs chance to see the light of day. I realize it is not entirely over yet...but I can hear the fat lady warming up in the wings. Maybe we should just all make a final commitment to , "Come out from among them and be ye seperate". Unless the unheard of happens with the Primates in the remaining hours of time there I for one have now thrown in the towell. I will not expend another hour, dollar, drop of sweat, or ounce of effort, to prop up the heretical piece of trash that is known as TEC. We don't need the properties... we need an enounter with the living God. It will not be found in TEC.
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| lionheart | Posted: 2007/2/16 16:10 Updated: 2007/2/16 16:10 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/19 From: Posts: 354 |
When I first returned to this site a while ago, it seemed pretty clear to me that the current problem in Anglicanism is one of discipline. It is true that authority is essential, but I think lack of authority is only partially to blame for this current particular situation. Officially, Anglicanism rejects same-sex everything. This came out of Lambeth 1998 if I'm not mistaken. It just seems that no one has any serious intention of enforcing it. To my knowledge, TEC has never officially rescinded its adherance to the Lambeth Quadrilateral either.
There are three fundamental concerns in any church: What is the authority we all recognize that is superior to private interpretation? How does one guarantee that that authority remains orthodox? And how does one guarantee that the authority exercises discipline to guard the faith? I don't know that any church has perfect answers to these questions; however, it strikes me that TEC and the Anglican Communion have particularly weak answers to all of the above. lh |
| dturk | Posted: 2007/2/16 16:45 Updated: 2007/2/16 16:45 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/26 From: Posts: 404 |
For several years, there has been the expectation that there will be some rebuke of TEC, at the Anglican Communion, for their ongoing heresy.
It seems it isn't going to happen. There are two rules in the Anglican Communion: 1. Unity above all. 2. Whenever one is forced to defend the faith, fallback, punt, use lots of doubletalk and ultimately do nothing. This latest disaster called a Primate's Meeting only proves this point. Unless there are some last minute surprises, the Anglican Communion is an impotent and soggy piece of toast. |
| ZachD | Posted: 2007/2/16 18:29 Updated: 2007/2/16 22:30 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1782 |
"But this morning, at breakfast, an excited orthodox bishop told VOL that "it ain't over till the fat lady sings", and "think Rocky Balboa". So, surprises are still in store. The Global South archbishops have not yet mounted their main offensive; there is more to come. The line has only been breached temporarily; the ecclesiastical Maginot Line is still holding."
_____________________________________________ ZachD had no doubts. Too much is at stake here. D-Day us upon us. . . . a lesson to all the old ladies among us . . . Cheers, all! ![]() And Isaac, Your "Hermaneutics" made me laugh! Brilliant! |
| leader1111 | Posted: 2007/2/16 18:45 Updated: 2007/2/16 18:45 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/19 From: Hobe Sound, Florida Posts: 233 |
Not a good analogy. The Maginot Line was easily defeated by the Germans flanking the two sides and destroying the defenders who where fixed in position and surrounded. An easy win by those that are nimble.
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| Fire_Ready | Posted: 2007/2/16 19:02 Updated: 2007/2/16 19:02 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/21 From: Hotlanta Posts: 405 |
“The next public statements will be on the much heralded COVENANT recommended by the Windsor Report which specifies more exactly what it means to be an Anglican. The Covenant goes something like this: If you sign on you receive membership status; if you don't sign on you get associate status. There is no such thing as formal excommunication in Anglicanism; that is far too unAnglican. Voluntary withdrawal is what was asked of The Episcopal Church; which somehow means that one freely chooses not to be included!”
David, Of all the information passed on to date, this is really the heart of it. What all of this boils down to is not just how to proceed but what we are and what we are not. There are so many ways of looking at this issue, and they all feel justified in their views. Is force of will on others really the answer for any of the competing denominations? I think not. There is a better and more Christian way to proceed, and I still believe the Primates will find it, although not perfectly, and surely not to everyone’s (or anyone’s) satisfaction. Some people want TEc to be chastised and thrown out of the Anglican Communion. That will not happen, and it shouldn’t. When you say “If you sign on you receive membership status”, that tips the hat to what is happening. The Anglican Communion is a loosely defined Christian organization where we rejoice in what binds us. That is our love of our Lord Jesus Christ. The guidelines of the Anglican Communion were designed intentionally vague. The TEc has become more “liberal” than “Christian”. It damages our sensibilities, for we can easily see the fallacy in their approach. From an Anglican Communion standpoint, disagreeing and praying for His guidance is enough. How others interpret Holy Scripture, though important, is their problem, not that of the communion. But that is hypothetical and not a good approach if you and your family are caught in the thick of it. In order to “sign on”, there must be clear guidance of exactly what we are signing onto. Many people want to elect to walk apart from the TEc, but is that how this should be approached, and is that really God’s Will? Our Triumvirate God’s Will is that we believe, follow and serve Him. We are all sinners, and how we serve Him will necessarily be imperfect. So we are all on our journey with and for Christ. The path we choose will be imperfect. We select the most perfect path that meets our needs on our journey. We travel together in some areas, and apart in others. So instead of dwelling on that which separates us, we must concentrate on those things that we are in agreement on. The Primates clarify what it means to be in “communion” with the Anglican Communion. They display the lighted path for the journey of following and serving Jesus Christ. This joint venture provides us with community in Christ and is beneficial to all. So the lighted path is clarified. If a denomination cannot, for whatever reason, travel this path and refuse to sign on to it, and “if you don't sign on you get associate status”. In this way, the Anglican Communion does not make the decision to “walk apart” from non consenting denominations, it is those denominations that willfully elect to “walk apart” from the Anglican Communion. That is how it should be, and I think that is the “rabbit out of the hat” that will materialize. It leaves the opportunity for the dissenting denominations to walk away, but it does not remove the welco0ming red carpet. It will be the denomination’s decision on how they wish to proceed, not the decision of the Anglican Communion to simply grab them by the scruff of the neck and toss them out the door and slam it behind them (not that I don’t see the value in that, but that would not be God’s Will). In this way, the Anglican Communion stands in the middle of the lighted path with open arms inviting all to join them. That is how it should be. But they must refuse to leave that lighted path to appease any faction of the denominations that make up the Anglican Communion. Once that is done, the chips will fall as they must. If TEc “signs on”, which I certainly hope the Covenant is clear enough that to do so would require major change of direction for them, then they must uphold their obligations therein. Everyone wins. If they refuse to “sign on” because they feel the Covenant is too restrictive, they are offered “associate status”. That would bring about the fireworks everyone has been looking for, but not because of the actions of the Anglican Communion, but because TEc has rejected the Covenant, and refuse to walk in full communion. That would be their choice. The Anglican Communion could “walk together” with them in the areas of shared agreement, but agree to “walk apart” where there can be no agreement. Again, that is how it should be, as we have more that binds us than we have that divides us. The people caught up directly in the crosshairs of this disagreement will be disappointed. The homosexuals will not get blanket and complete acceptance of their lifestyle and homosexual behavior. They will be bitter and angry, but that is nothing new. The orthodox and the conservatives will be disappointed because their views were also not vindicated as being the better way forward by vocally rejecting TEC for their heresy. But the larger issue is what is His Will? Fighting factions only lead to opportunities for Satan. This would clarify the issues of the faithful servants and followers of the Lord to be free to choose what best meets their needs, which is once again how it should be. The TEc does not falter because the Anglican Communion pulled the welcome mat from under their feet, but very well may because of their terrible decisions. That is also as it should be. So I do not see the fireworks in the making, but I do pray for a clarified way forward. Those that survive and thrive will do so because of their Scripturally based actions. Those that die painfully on the vine will also be because of their own actions. All are welcome in the Anglican Communion if they elect to follow the lighted path of our Lord Jesus Christ. May the Lord guide the Primates as they proceed. |
| chaps | Posted: 2007/2/16 22:25 Updated: 2007/2/16 22:25 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/2/11 From: Posts: 438 |
Isaac wrote:
"Hermaneutics" A picture is worth a thousand words! Blessings, chaps |
| TENTEX | Posted: 2007/2/16 23:07 Updated: 2007/2/16 23:13 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/1/25 From: Murfreesboro, TN St. Patrick's (CANA) Posts: 240 |
I am willing to wait until Monday to see if anything real is accomplished, but not past Monday. For many years we have waited patiently for the next meeting, conference, or whatever. This no longer works. Something real must be done to remove TEC from the Anglican Communion. My parish has sacrificed much in order to remain faithful. Many others have, and are, too. Inaction by the Primates will be interpreted as abandonment of those of us who have been lead-on for far too long. Perhaps, if a few orthodox Primates remove their provinces from the Anglican Communion, that will work for me. I will go with them. Others will be able to follow later. Either way, results are needed by Monday. Promises and fudge will not do.
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| MicroCar | Posted: 2007/2/16 23:35 Updated: 2007/2/17 1:10 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/6 From: Posts: 391 |
Well said dturk:
"It seems it isn't going to happen. There are two rules in the Anglican Communion: 1. Unity above all. 2. Whenever one is forced to defend the faith, fallback, punt, use lots of doubletalk and ultimately do nothing" May I add a third: 3. Poor GS Primates must ordain highly paid white Anglo Saxon American males as religious professionals er Bishops for US fund raising/Mission/Convocations who appoint highly paid likewise white Anglo Saxon American network leader religious professionals and clergy for the same institutionalising reconstruction. Primate now tithe heavy of course remains in Anglican Communion still cozy with ABC in order to ..."ultimately do nothing" I love America Micro+ |
| Guardian | Posted: 2007/2/17 1:26 Updated: 2007/2/17 1:38 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/9/21 From: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 184 |
As the news slowly begins to trickle out of Dar es Salaam, the only comment I find myself wanting to make is to repeat the words of T.S. Elliot's in his poem "The Hollow Men":
"This is the way the world ends This is the way the world ends This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." Sorry everyone, but with the exception of the seven primates who refused to take communion with Schori, I see absolutely nothing positive coming out of this meeting. |
| MarkP | Posted: 2007/2/17 1:41 Updated: 2007/2/17 1:41 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/11/11 From: Diocese of El Camino Real Posts: 319 |
OK, let's put this in perspective. If the someone, somewhere, doesn't do something pretty quickly then +VGR and +Akinola will be sitting down to lunch together at Lambeth.
And VGR's partner will join the spouse's group on the programs at Lambeth: http://www.anglicanjournal.com/world/anglican-communion/lambeth-1998/019/article/spouses-program-varied/ "More than 600 bishops' spouses were kept busy with the spouses' program during the conference and it wasn't just women who took part but also five men, the husbands of women bishops." So either there's no Lambeth or +VGR will become the new celebrity at Lambeth. Papparazzi, get your cameras ready! |
| Craig | Posted: 2007/2/17 3:14 Updated: 2007/2/17 3:14 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/6/8 From: Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 72 |
If all the orthodox can muster is seven dissenters then the game is over. The "spirit of the times" over rules the "spirit of scripture."
The Anglican church is now just another go-along to get-along organization that has no ethical backbone. The prediction of the Windsor report being still-born has come to be truth. The communion now has no place at the table of world leadership...it is dead. May God's grace be upon us all. Craig. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/2/17 10:19 Updated: 2007/2/17 10:19 |
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If You Love Christ Craig, We're Always at the table!!
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/2/17 10:23 Updated: 2007/2/17 10:23 |
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If I thought my parents were like you I'd disown them,..and be ashamed for them!!
I was brought up Anglican,..true Anglican,..not the Southern Baptist version of Anglican!! |
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| FrSam+ | Posted: 2007/2/17 11:37 Updated: 2007/2/17 11:43 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/15 From: Posts: 555 |
Mr. Green may be a troll that is here to simply insult and pour salt into the wounds of those whose hearts are broken over TEC's apostacy.
He demonstrates a valid reality however. His is the attitude of most in TEC, and certainly most in her leadership. Mr. Green refers to the gnostic idea that TEC holds about their "table", not realizing that their table is truly set to suit them and not set by the nail scarred hands of Christ who died for them. As for the comments about "Baptist Anglicans", I have always found that when liberals can't discuss the issues with intelligence they resort to name calling and insults meant to disarm. This is the ugly face of the reality of Episcopal "inclusion" which really means aggreement, tolerance that really means acceptance, and diversity as long as your diverse opinion agrees with theirs. His attitude should stand as a warning to those who think that Mrs. Schori and those who agree with her are ever going to pay attention to orthodox Anglicans in an honest and serious way. You can bet that in private she laughs at the "conservative remainers" and jokes about them like this man. I'm sure Mr. Green and Mrs. Schori would be feel that they were in great company at tea together. There is only one Holy Table in all of it's various locations and I don't think the table that Mr. Green refers to is the one where Christ is seated. You may do lots of things in this life, but approaching Christ and His table on your own terms is not one of them. At least the Baptist know that. |
| john4woman | Posted: 2007/2/17 12:55 Updated: 2007/2/17 12:55 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/28 From: california Posts: 104 |
When there's not much to write about the writing really counts...this was such a well-written piece. Thank you.
I'm in somewhat of a dispirited mode. Having recently left TEC to join an Anglican church plant here in CA under Bp. Venables, however I'm heartened by his principled stand with the other 6. I'm praying for lightning, but all will happen according to His will. ![]() |
| DnNeal | Posted: 2007/2/17 14:00 Updated: 2007/2/17 17:21 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/26 From: Tennessee Posts: 1302 |
Quote:
I was brought up Anglican,..true Anglican,..not the Southern Baptist version of Anglican!! DavidGreen, What do you man by "true Anglican"? Is it like the Anglicanism of St. Augustine of Canterbury, The Venerable Bede, St. Edward the Confessor, or Hooker and Riddley? Or do you mean the group of folks such as Pike, Spong, Griswold and Schori? These completely abandoned the faith and practice of the former for something else entirely, except for administrative policy and even this is up for grabs with them. Only someone who does not know either theology or history could claim that these two groups represent the same thing. Which kind of "Anglican" are you? Neal |
| boggy | Posted: 2007/2/17 15:39 Updated: 2007/2/17 15:39 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/8/29 From: Posts: 167 |
what they want is FULL and TOTAL acceptance of their lifestyle
Gutless... |
| lionheart | Posted: 2007/2/17 21:02 Updated: 2007/2/17 21:02 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/19 From: Posts: 354 |
I don't know who this David Green/Anonymous fellow is but I don't think he knows anything about Christianity beyond "Episcopalians are supposed to be good revisionists and the Southern Baptists are the ones who object to acceptance of homosexuality or WO." That amounts to knowing nothing.
lh |
| ahauber | Posted: 2007/2/18 12:35 Updated: 2007/2/18 12:35 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/3/5 From: Georgia Posts: 149 |
UECNA said:
Mr. Green refers to the gnostic idea that TEC holds about their "table", not realizing that their table is truly set to suit them and not set by the nail scarred hands of Christ who died for them. Well said, Sam, very well said. It seems that they just don't understand that we are supposed to change into His image, no the other way around. Andy |
| ZachD | Posted: 2007/2/18 19:24 Updated: 2007/2/18 19:24 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1782 |
What a sad, sad pall, hanging in the air!
There is wisdom and sadness in many of the posts here. We are mourning the loss of what was expected to come from Tanzania. Perhaps too little will come of this, afterall. As I have posted before, I will support NOTHING of a Covenant where its drafters are complicit with undisciplined and uncorrected idolatry and perversion. The offending cancer(s) must first be tossed out before a Draft Covenant can be raised which will deal with the events that "have torn the fabric of the communion at its deepest level." AND, I have heard no confession or apology from ANY leader ANYWHERE, for the acts of tolerating that woman Jezebel in the church for over 40 years! You shameful leaders! You complicit hoard of 'lets not offend, now, gentlemen." I feel the emesis rising. Failing Monday and its aftermath, I'd say the laity had better carry the ball. The ecclesial ball as well! Disgusting! |











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