Yes, it is "make or break time" for the Anglican Communion. TEC is broken -- never to be restored except as those parishes leave in observance of "the faith once given".

The homosexual agenda within TEC is a massive offense against God as unambiguously and clearly stated in Scripture. (Rom. 1:26,27, Lev. 18:22, 20:13, 1 Cor. 6:9, 1 Tim. 1:10, Gen. 19: 1-9, Judg. 19:22, 1 Kin. 14:24 and Jude 7)

ABC and the Anglican Communion have no choice in the matter! It is solely of God.

If the Anglican Communion is to survive it must be do so with a "true reconciliation" to preserve the "faith given" and the rejection of "relativism" and its unholy, Satanic manifestation of homosexuality disguised in a false agenda, a lie, of toleration and suffering and a need for same-sex companionship!

OtisPage,

How excellently you state the defining moment - Kudos to you sir.

Grace, Mercy, and Peace be with you and yours.

Humbly,

Tikhon

If an intact "Anglican Communion" emerges from this meeting, it will be a pantomime communion with slap-stick bishops - as this is not acceptable to the orthodox, they will not remain on board.

As we all know, someone WILL be leaving....

Call me skeptical, but what I would like to see is some orthodox come out and say that if the Global South Primates don't oust TEC completely at this meeting that they will leave for some other conservative Anglican body, neither TEC nor AMiA. That would be a fine gauntlet. Patience is not always a virtue. This, "oh, boy, the revisionists are really in trouble now." is a tired, very old song.

lh

My bet is on the Anglican Province of America or the Anglican Province of Christ the King. Better yet: Our own province....name yet to be determined, and allied with ????

Who knows?

Cennydd

tick . . . tick . . . tick . . . tick . . . .

Pray for the work of the Holy Spirit to be done! Pray! Pray! Pray! Then pray some more!

The inscrutable Divine Irony at work: What the decadent western world in all its pseudo-sophistication and 'advanced' (but increasingly godless) understanding patronizes and disdains--Africa--now holds the key to the future of the Anglican communion! How interesting that those who so "need" our money and expertise have the power (and one prays the conviction) to say "your money perish with you!" to the colorfully attired, yet spiritually apostate Jezebel of TEC-USA when she shows her face in Tanzania. How very typical of the liberal and heretical mindset to presume that their agenda transcends the understanding of the intellectually and spiritually 'simple.' Her presence inter patres is an affront to the historic Christian Faith, and her "gospel" is demonstrably antichristian. Such effrontery must be met with the resolve of the ancient councils that wielded solemn anathemata with apostolic authority. If, as one might well suspect, God's Spirit is moving east and south, this will be a dramatic moment in His-story of Salvation.

I'm going take a break from the frequent reading of VOL for a week, though I continue to pray that God's will be done.

I couldn't resist posting the comments below, by "Father Jake", via dailyepiscopalian.com
I find it remarkable to see how "the other side" thinks. Or, at any rate, feels:

Primates' Meeting...

... what we do know for sure is that come Monday morning, nothing of any immediate importance will have occurred at this meeting. Most likely there will be various recommendations. We may choose to consider these recommendations at GC2009. And then again, we may not. It seems to me we have dwelt on these issues long enough. Other than rescinding B033, I think it is time that we moved on to other concerns.

.... let's disarm the extremists with the truth, so that reconciliation can commence.

...the Archbishop of Canterbury... is called to figure out how to keep the largest and fastest growing segment of the Communion and the wealthiest Province, on which the Communion has come to depend, from each going their own way.

What a sad time. It is tragic to see the Anglican Communion come to this. It is not unlike the tragic split of thirty years ago when the so-called "continuing" Churches left over the issue of the ordination of women and prayerbook revision. ANd if the Primates don't act decisively this week it will happen again and we will have two sets of continuing Anglican Churches here in North AMerica. Now wouldn't that be just dandy? Three groups of Churches in the US and Canada all claiming to be Anglican. It will make us all look like a bunch of fools.

Yes the homosexual agenda within the Church stinks and is obviously against the plain sense of Scripture. May God bless the Primates, and may God have mercy on us all. Amen.

Tanzania, Tanzania.

Where is our foundation?

Our foundation is in Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition. If you look endlessly for loopholes, you will surely find them. But how should we read these divine guides that show us the way? Should they be read to justify our views, or justify His views? I believe that is the first concession that began our troubled course.

We defensively look at the revisionist doctrine of the “New Thing” the TEC is saying God is doing. Many have taken that leap of faith. That leap of faith is far different than the Leap of Faith that we take in our firm belief in Jesus Christ as our personal savior. But it does have a familiar ring to it. A comforting ring. A compassionate and tolerant ring. An inclusive ring.

We all want desperately to bring all people to Christ. In and of itself, that is a good thing.

There is no question that the Episcopal Church leaders have lost their way. Their decisions and actions must be revisited. But it must be done in a thoughtful and Christian manner. They are unintentionally destroying that which we hold most dear, and we feel betrayed. They believe their theology is new and vibrant, and we see it as old, lost, and not founded on Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition. Though we do have more in common than we have that divides us, the question is how to proceed.

We proceed by going back to the fundamentals. By going back to our calling to follow and serve the Lord our God. The Episcopal Church leaders made concessions early and often. They made decisions as individuals, and not as a church foundation. The role of a church is far different than that of an individual, for the church has great influence that affects many more people than just the ones presently represented.

I sincerely believe that the Episcopal leadership believed then, and believe now, that they were doing a good and noble thing. They rested their arguments in human reason and compassion. They negotiated in good faith with the best of intentions. They were ripe for confusion because they believed that they are better and more compassionate than others throughout our history. They discussed theological views with those that were not believers and felt betrayed by Holy Scripture, Holy Tradition and even Christianity. These people are very familiar with religion and the Christian religion and are quite intelligent. But their agenda was firm and somewhat hidden in it’s presentation. Their discussions did not begin with the foundational guidance from Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition. They began immediately in the details, which can be twisted if not read as intended. That was their plan and agenda from the beginning. Because their discussions were presented in a Christian format, they were discussed from the position that they were actually believers, when they were not, and are not, believers in Christianity. This process exposed that you cannot convince firm non-believers through quoting Holy Scripture that the guidance from Holy Scripture applies to them. By permitting the discussion to start in the middle before the Christian foundational groundwork was laid, it gave a tremendous advantage to the non-believers with the agenda. By letting the non-believers dictate the direction and content, they became over matched and confused and made concessions. These concessions were made in good faith with people that were not acting in good faith. The non-believer’s agenda was selfish and not in the best interest of the church, the Christian faith or true believers in Jesus Christ. Those with the non-believing agenda were able to then confuse those that were weak in their faith and convince them that what was condemned in Holy Scripture was actually righteous in the eyes of the Lord. They were converted to the view that Holy Scripture had a different meaning than that interpreted in Holy Tradition. A veil of ignorance and arrogance descended over them. They made a leap of faith in opposition to Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition. They sincerely believed that it was the Holy Spirit that was guiding them. But would the Holy Spirit casually oppose Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition? Yet the Episcopal leaders accepted this without hesitation. Without additional guidance. Even though the majority of the Anglican Communion was opposed to their new found theology. They sincerely believed they were right, and Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition were wrong. Therefore everyone else would have to come to accept their theology, as they were right and all opposing them were simply not blessed by their elitist ideas.

They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. This is the prime example as to why this is so true and timeless. If you read Holy Scripture without foundation and with an agenda, you can find anything you wish to find. But that is NOT how Holy Scripture is to be read. It completely misses the point. What the Episcopal leaders have come to accept as compassion and inclusiveness is anything but compassionate and inclusive. On an individual level, we can be understanding and compassionate in this way. There is a place for this. But on a Christian institutional level, the church has a responsibility to ALL their people. Those afflicted with behavior that is condemned in Holy Scripture must for the moment travel a much less clear path in that area. Concerning that affliction, they are walking separate from God’s Will. That does not mean that they are completely walking separately from God’s Will, and that they cannot be blessed with His guidance in other areas of their lives. As servants and followers of our Lord Jesus Christ, we still sin and are lost without His magnificent guidance. We all have afflictions that are not of His Will. The place of the church is to be the calm and consistent foundation in the storm through our faith in Jesus Christ and our Triumvirate God. The church can accept us as we are, as sinners. Our leaders are to be patient and lead us to the more perfect path, no matter where we are on our journey. They cease to meet that objective when the church leaders lead the church away from that calm and takes us headlong into the storm. When they not only accept our afflictions, but tell us those afflictions are good and righteous in the eyes of the Lord, they lead us away from God, for our afflictions are not the Will of God and lead us to further stray and undermine our relationship with God. The objective of the church is to provide the most perfect path for following and serving Christ. We MUST follow Christ as perfectly as possible. Those with unhealthy afflictions must follow a less clear path. Forcing all the believers to take this unclear path is NOT the Will of God. In so doing, the Episcopal leaders have lost their way as leaders and have violated their Holy Vows.

How to resolve this?

The Anglican Communion Primates must not start in the middle as the Episcopal leadership had done. They cannot permit the direction of the discussion to be dictated by the non-believers, as the Episcopal leaders had done. They cannot permit themselves to be confused by agenda driven appeasers that have had the veil of ignorance and arrogance dropped over them. They must begin with the foundation that binds us as faithful followers and servants of our Lord. The ONLY Leap of Faith must be that of belief in Jesus Christ as our personal savior. We must rely on our God given guidance, not human compassion, to accomplish this. Everything else flows from that. When the Episcopal leaders try and manipulate details, the Primates must immediately test those questions against the foundation that binds us. If any afflicted behavior is condemned in Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition, it is NOT the correct stand of Christianity to hold it up as equal and righteous in the eyes of the Lord. It does not lead the followers to the more clear and perfect path for our worldly journey following and serving Christ. The best must be held up as the best, and the least must be tolerated, but not confused as being the best. That is how the church serves their followers and serves the Lord.

Pray for guidance. May the Grace of God be with our Anglican Primates during this most difficult of times. May they have firmness of faith and be guided by God’s Light that surpasses all understanding. Amen.

"Better yet: Our own province....name yet to be determined, and allied with ????"

Personally, I think that the U.S. needs to be relegated to a missionary diocese completely under another, godly, primate - not "alligned" with one.

There is still a lot of spiritual immaturity and rebeliousness that needs to be put in subjection to Christ before the U.S. is ready to stand on its own feet again.

<<desiderius wrote: ... I'd be asking why all those "concerned" orthodox folk in TEC just don't quit TEC altogether. Then they can join one of the breakaway groups and come under the episcopal oversight of an orthodox bishop.>>

Thre are many reasons why orthodox folks just don't up and quit TEc (Cult), one of which you mentioned: geographical. Unless you live near an Anglican or an "orthodox" church, one is not going to be driving for an hour or more to get to the place. Also, if one is true to ones self, that church will become part of their personal life. Again, who is going to drive an hour or more each way to attend an hour+ event several times a week?

Those of us who are very troubled by the actions of the TEc (Cult) and can't just up and leave, can only seek out a neighboring Episcopal Church that rejects what Schori and others are selling. There are oasis within the Episcopal Church if one looks hard enough. OR, one can leave the Denomination all together (go RC, Congregational, non-denomicational, etc).

Furthermore, there is more to a Church than just the teachings. What is the Worship Service like? Does it "calm" the inner beast: e.g. music - traditional, modern, or mixed; language - ancient English or modern, etc. Are the Worship Leaders of all ages? What is the Religious Ed. program like? And much more.

Finding a Church that makes one comfortable in all areas is a challenge. And unless one is nearby, then, one either has to hold their nose, or stay home. Neither is a good choice.

If I seem pestimistic here, it's because I see no hope for TEc (Cult), and the viable options are few.

H

Cennydd:

The name "The Anglican Province of Christ the King" is already taken and I don't think that Archbishop Morse would give it up.

Fiona

Fiona, I meant that we should become PART of APCK if we don't get a new province.

Cennydd

A pack with the devil and a battle for souls.

What I would like to see is a compromise forced on TEC that would set up a new orthodox province in North America and an agreement that parishes can move freely between the two provinces with their property. Then let us battle for the hearts and souls of men. I have confidence that orthodoxy will prevail.

I have left the TEC but grief for the people still within.

Here is my humble orthodox fantasy: AB Venables is raised up as the next AB of Canterbury. This recommendation comes out of the AB's meeting to the Queen. TEC is booted, The Canandian Anglican Church is booted. A new North American Province is formed and all members of Common Cause come together with Bishop Bob as the new AB. Hell freezes over and I walk on water. Whew ! That felt good. Doc

HowieG wrote,

"Furthermore, there is more to a Church than just the teachings. What is the Worship Service like? Does it "calm" the inner beast: e.g. music - traditional, modern, or mixed; language - ancient English or modern, etc. Are the Worship Leaders of all ages? What is the Religious Ed. program like? And much more."

Well, let's see . . . It is true that there is more to a church than just its teachings; however, the teachings have to be the core of what it is and if that is not sound the rest is surely rotten. I suppose you could continue in an apostate church because you like the building and the choir. I also think you can be fairly certain that if the teaching is wrong that the Religious Ed. Dept. will be propagating the same bile. I don't know what a "Worship Leader" is so I'll withhold comment on that.

I do not mean to be too hard on those who stay in TEC out of some sense of superiority or spite or whatever. I genuinely believe that the longer people stay in TEC the more they get used to its evil. Slowly you accept this or that little thing. Slowly you think to yourself, "oh, this little part isnt' so bad. I can even see the wisdom in it." Slowly the temperature rises and you, the frog, are cooked before you even know it. And your soul is lost. That is the danger you run by staying one instant longer. Isn't that too much to risk?

Lest you say that you are immune, consider this: The orthodox here are already half cooked and don't even know it. From Pentecost to the latter part of the 20th century, the universal consensus (with only very isolated exceptions) was that there was no basis for the ordination of women. Many frogs, after only a few decades in the pot, have wholeheartedly embraced this heretical notion. Do not kid yourself. Your sentimentality will be your demise if you do not leave.

lh

I wish that you would give it a try (APCK). It's been our church for the past several years. We haven't found it wanting in any respect. It was established by Godly and dedicated people back in '76/77 who know who they are and keep on track through following the holy scriptures.

"I don't know what a "Worship Leader" is so I'll withhold comment on that."

LH,

I can help you out with that.

A worship leader would be a kind of like the opening act before the minister takes the stage...er, pulpit.

Thanks sentinel, I'm not familiar with some terminology.

lh

Wilhelm,
I'm not sure to whom your post about the APCK was directed. I used to be in the Anglican Catholic Church when I lived near one. I finally converted to the Eastern Orthodox Church and am quite satisfied. I do however still have a great respect for the Continuers. I continue to believe that the faith of traditional Anglo-Catholics is practically identical to that of the OC.

thanks,
lh

... what we do know for sure is that come Monday morning, nothing of any immediate importance will have occurred at this meeting. Most likely there will be various recommendations. We may choose to consider these recommendations at GC2009. And then again, we may not. It seems to me we have dwelt on these issues long enough. Other than rescinding B033, I think it is time that we moved on to other concerns.

They speak of resolutions as if it were scripture...

Actually, Wilhelm, I think the APCK should join with US in any new Anglican province, and I'd hope that this new province would be a part of the Anglican Communion in whatever form it's re-created.

And I'd also hope that the other Churches of the Continuum would eventually join as well!

Cennydd

to Lionhearted: this is not a reply but a request for help in locating an aricle that I can not find now. It is an outline history of Ecusa's last 40 or so years. It may have been within a reply..... I look for your comments as I find your replies very informative and well put. I am in hopes that you can help me find this article again. surely 'preciatit. :-? Hw

Quote:

Sentinel,

that is your perspective of a worship leader.
It is a perspective often shared, by those who look down their collective noses at folks who worship or sing praises differently. It is a perspective often shared by those who feel only approved hymnal songs may be sung, almost always with a big fancy pipe organ, and a formal choir, using only hyms they are currently know and approve of...

It is a perspective that anyone not conforming to some sort of approved hymnal/musical/choir singing, is always just performing an opening act concert for entertainment before some sort of leader takes the stage...

Sentinel, Is that where you are coming from?

Lionheart, you asked a fair question, that I will answer by another posting.

truthseekr

Harriett, there are several articles out there concerning "an outline history of Ecusa's last 40 or so years. "
Maybe the following one is the one you look for??;

"Anglican Communion: Past Blessings, Present Challenges and Future Hopes"
Be sure to read the comments.

Blessings, gregory

later i add;

http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/1991/

http://walkingapart.us/ <--- BEST LINK !

Harriet,

Thank you, you are too kind. Under the section of Theology, Worship, etc. toward the bottom of the main page, there is an article titled "Walking Apart". It also may be what you're looking for. It has a timeline of TEC since 1930.

lh

VOL has been strangely silent for the last two days of what must be very exciting developments in Tanzania.

I'm sure our friend David Virtue would post good information if he could. This silence isn't like him at all.

I read on another website that Bob Duncan had his laptop computer stolen from his hotel room.

(You don't suppose that David Virtue lost his laptop in the same sweep??!! Na.)

truthseekr,

I wasn't intending to poke fun at anyone's idea of worship in my question. I have heard of priests, ministers, preachers, deacons, acolytes, etc. I sincerely am not familiar with the terminology of modern evangelical worship. My church doesn't have instrumental music at all, everything's a cappella. Our music is pretty cut and dried though. Beyond liking our way, I don't really have any opinion on other worship styles except to say that I'm drawn to the most traditional types. Nonetheless, that's just taste.

lh

While we await the first news from Tanzania, can someone refresh my memory: did I suffer a delusional moment, or did I read in one of the many postings over the past few months that a Parish's Vestry can at anytime vote to put its property in trust of the Diocese, or conversly reserve it for the Parish itself? And if this is not my delusion, does the ability to do this legally depend on which state geographically a Parish is in?

I think it's fair to assume our benefactor Dr Virtue and his team have been traveling to Tanzania, which would more than adequately explain his absence!

Howell,

I think you'll get two very different answers depending on whether you're speaking from ecclesiastical law or civil law.

To the best of my knowledge, the so-called Dennis Cannon of TEC claims that all parish property is held in trust for TEC. With all the goings on with the new PB, I assume an ecclesiastical court would reach the same conclusion.

Civil law is quite different and varies by state, as you suggest. In states with strong common law traditions (including my home state of Georgia), real estate judgements are based on whose name is on the deed of the property, who paid for the property, and whether the owner signed away any interest in the property through a contract. Civil Courts are traditionally loathe to reach into denominational laws (canons) to enforce anything.

A local parish of TEC is typically a corporation, and the Vestry is its Board of Directors. If the corporation chooses to remove its membership from a super organization (such as TEC), it doesn't lose any of its own property rights in the process, because it has title to the property and paid for the property.

There may be other states that are normally less dependent upon common law, where denominations (and Dioceses) may have some rights in the eyes of the civil courts, but I'm not aware of them.

As far as I know, it's almost always the case in TEC that the local parish paid for the land and buildings, and if anything contributed money to the Diocese and TEC, not the other way around. Based upon that, my estimation is that the local parish will generally prevail in court if it wants to leave TEC.

(That contrasts with a Roman Catholic parish, for example, where typically the property is in the name of the local bishop or archbishop from day one. A RC parish would have a much more difficult time seceding, in court, than would an Episcopal Church parish.)

Ecclesiastical courts of TEC can issue all the rulings they want, but in fact it's the civil courts that will determine the actual result of any contested case.

I don't know if that answers your questions.

Romans828

Thanks Truthseekr, I live and learn.

lh

Thanks to you Lionheart,

I once was blessed, to be in an Orthodox Church,
and hear some of the singing... it was beautiful.

truthseekr

Gregory and Lionhearted, thank you, both. Do'preciatit. Keep talking. There are people who are listening. Cheers. Hw

Very much a media event -

Katie Nguyen is covering it for Reuters, Elizabeth Kennedy for AP, Jonathan Petre for the Telegraph, the usual suspects for ENS, Robert Pigott for BBC, Stephen Bates for the Guardian, Adrian Hamilton for the Independent, . . . don't know if Ruth Gledhill (Times) or Jane Lampman (Christian Science Monitor) are actually on site.

And of course the most reliable source, David Virtue. How big is the press contingent, D.V.? Did any American media send a reporter?

de la Cuervoria

cuervoria,

it´s a large group of journalists alright.

you may want to notice that, from all those you mention, DV is the only one who hasn´t produced a single piece of reporting. Not one.

Too busy carring notes and coffee trays for the SG folks, one´d suspect...

The Anglicans are splitting up. The American Episcopal Church has (by its infiltrated leadership) abandoned Jesus, God, Scripture, and all Christianity. Half the remaining Anglicans are only a few steps behind. The Methodists and Lutherans are, I understand, only a few steps behind that.

Maybe I'll join up with a Baptist congregation!

Who says that the Book of Common Prayer (in either its current form or the 1928 form or even earlier) is the only way to worship?

I think anyone who will not pursue a drumhead excommunication against High Priestess Jeff should be brought up on charges of effeminacy.

Christ commands that I do not lie, nor may I serve two masters.

I Corinthians 6.9

My, we're a little touchy, go_fish.

My point is that, having read all those contributors, I have yet to find anything worth reading . . . go figure.

de la Cuervoria

Hey Folks,

Since I'm the one who brought up the phrase "Worship Leader", let be clarify what I'm talking about.

Background first... I come from a RC background, involved with the "Charismatic movement" of the 70's - 80's, joined the Episcopal Church upon an invitation after a bad personal event with the local RC Church. (Before learning of the ECUSA Garbage.) I'm very heavy into Worship & Liturgical music (was instrumental in establishing Contemporary Christian music at my parish) and have played in many Churches and one Bishop installation.

The term refers to anyone who is involved with the Worship Service that leads the Congregation into song, prayer, etc. It is not the group that "entertains" the people before the sermon. It is a role that is taken very seriously. They do set the tone for the Service. Keep in mind, as I said, there is more to a Church than just teaching. If that were the case, then why bother going to a Worship Service when you can listen to an audio recording of the readings and the sermon.

BTW, a good music leader can easily choose music that would contradict a revisionist priest's false teachings. I've seen it done.

I sense from some of the replys here that "traditional" refers to some set format. If that is the case, then the number of available alternatives to the crap that some TEc (Cults) parishes push is even less than I was looking for. It's no wonder then that the Evangelical Churches are growing faster than the buildings can be built; and subsequently, TEc (Cult), Anglican, RC, Lutheran, and others are seeing their numbers dropping.

It is apparant that Churches that enjoy the presence of the Holy Spirit during the Worship Service in all aspects of the Worship Service will grow. I've seen individual Churches of all denominations, including the Episcopal Church, that truly seek out God's Holy Teachings and puts into practice what Jesus taught us (or at least tries with an open heart) grow, while a Church of the same denomination a few miles away is dying for lack of members.

If there is any hope for the Anglican Communion, then this must be the at the core of any thing that comes out of Tanzania.

H

Truthseer,

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!

H

cuervoria, I´ll tell you about one thing that some other reporter on the ground did report about and which should catch your attention:

----This afternoon, following the first press briefing prior to the official beginning of the Primates meeting on Thursday 15 February, Davis Mac-Iyalla, Director of Changing Attitude Nigeria and Archbishop Peter Akinola, Primate of All Nigeria, met for the first time. ----

I, for one, am relieved that ol´ Peter didn´t attempt to exorcise Mac-Iyalla, or something of that sort.

However, this does raise a question: why didn´t Akinola ACTUALLY exorcise Mac-Iyalla? He actually HELD the dude´s hand! And chatted with him!! The horror!!

--- Peter Akinola asked Davis if they had met before and Davis said yes, they had met several times, when Peter Akinola came to inaugurate the Province of Jos. Davis told the Archbishop the story of the late bishop Ugede, when they had met at the bishop’s funeral. Davis also told Peter Akinola how he had spent the night at his house following Bishop Ugede’s death in Abuja. Davis went on to describe the formation of Changing Attitude Nigeria. Peter Akinola then remembered who Davis was and thanked him. ----

He... what?

----- The Archbishop jokingly asked Davis if he was officially invited to the meeting, and Davis replied that no, he is not a Primate. ----

So, this is how you deal with unrepentant homoerotic sinners... you JOKE with them?

---- They were joined by Colin Coward from Changing Attitude England who had met Archbishop Akinola at the Anglican Consultative Council meeting in Nottingham. We exchanged handshakes and greetings with the Archbishop, who was friendly and open.----

Again, I, for one, am relieved to witness this elementary sense of civility from good ol´ Peter.

But most posters here should be really, really worried. You know... first you talk to "them", then you thank "them", and next thing you know, you´re actually DIALOGUING with "them", and before you know it, you´re ACTUALLY removing your support from that crazy gay-criminalizing nigerian law. And, God forbid, good ol´ Akinola may come to find out that, yes Gloria, gay people are quite human, too, and quite christian life able, at that. And that has nothing to do with their sexual orientation.

Calm down, go_fish.

There is nothing wrong with being civil. It wasn't an ordination, was it? All right, then.

How long have you been feeling this way?

de la Cuervoria

How long have I been feeling... relieved you mean?

(???)

I don´t think it will last though. Peter HAS to live up to his reputation.

It may also be prudent to note that unlike many reporters D.V. has to pay his own way.

To my knowledge he does not have a TV network or major Newspaper supporting him and paying for his stories to go out.

He gives a tremendous amount of his time, energy, and MONEY to keep this site going. Unless a person helps to support him financially, they should be careful about criticizing him for not posting a report sooner.

I think many on this site are genuinely pleased, go_fish, that you felt relieved to see a side of Archbishop Akinola that the makers of his "reputation" — the media — don't often show.

He's a gentleman.

Humbly,

de la Cuervoria

PRESS RELEASE - DISCLAIMER- Davis Mac- Iyalla

"" The general public is hereby warned of the activities of a person who goes by the name of Davis (David) Mac Iyalla. He claims to be a homosexual member of the Anglican Church but extensive searches revealed that he is NOT registered in any of our over 10,000 local parishes as of the past two years. None of our over 6000 priests recognise him as an active member in any of their parishes.

He has finally been traced to be the same person who defrauded the then dying Bishop of Otukpo under the guise of marrying his daughter. Iyalla then closed down his own C & S church and took up an appointment with his then proposed father–in-law from whom he fraudulently obtained some church documents. On the death of the bishop mid 2003, Iyalla broke off the engagement and made away with large sums of money including salaries due to some staff. Since then, he has not been seen in Otukpo where he is wanted by the Police. He claims he was sacked and victimised for his homosexuality and uses that guise to further defraud unsuspecting foreigners.

Anyone relating to Davis (David) Mac Iyalla does so at his or her own risk.

Though some misguided Churches especially in the Americas and lately in the UK have deviated from the Biblical teaching that homosexuality is highly displeasing to the creator God, The Church of Nigeria(Anglican Communion) together with many faithful Anglicans worldwide continue to see the practice as an aberration that God can and has been delivering willing people from.

The Church of Nigeria wishes to emphasise that she continues to minister to all her members regardless of the problems they face. Our Priests are adequately trained to counsel and pray with all manner of persons who go to them for help. ""

er.... gregory?

You're repeating a year old lie.

Check THIS out.

Statement by Changing Attitude (England) about allegations against Changing Attitude Network (Nigeria)

source: Changing Attitude

09 Jan 2006- The Rev. Canon AkinTunde Popoola, Director of Communications, Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion) issued two press releases published consecutively on 28 December 2005 on behalf of the Most Rev. Peter J. Akinola, CON, D.D, Archbishop, Metropolitan and Primate of All Nigeria.

The press releases directly and by implication make allegations against Mr Davis MacIyalla of dishonesty, fraudulently obtaining church documents and stealing large sums of money including salaries.

Canon Popoola has published these allegations but has produced no evidence to substantiate the very serious claims he has made against Mr MacIyalla. Canon Popoola has also failed to produce evidence of any legal action taken by the Church against Mr MacIyalla in relation to these alleged offences.

Changing Attitude (England) has recognised Mr MacIyalla as the co-ordinator of Changing Attitude Network (Nigeria). We take accusations made against him very seriously. With the help of Mr MacIyalla and other Nigerians we are compiling a dossier to provide evidence of his truthfulness and integrity to be used in any future legal action.

Changing Attitude (England) is taking legal advice about this matter. Canon Popoola must now put verifiable evidence into the public domain.

////////////////////

As for what "verifiable evidence" may mean... you may want to ask DV to ask MacIyalla himself.

If Akinola had any real faith, he would have preached the gospel of salvation to MacIyalla, right there, on the spot, and commanded him to leave his homosexual lifestyle behind.

Yet, Peter Akinola, knowing WHO he was talking with, still went on and SHOOK his hand, THANKED him and JOKED with him.

UTURN, Ashame that you get thrown off VOL only to create another username and continue to post deceptive information.
The gospel of salvation has been preached to MacIyalla. Yet he and his partners continue to try to persuade people to take their side. People need to choose to be on God's side and obey His Word. People like you who think persuading people to take their side does not change God's Word. It only changes their way and what God will say on Judgement Day.

humbly, gregory

PRESS RELEASE - DISCLAIMER
""The general public is hereby warned of the activities of some fraudulent personalities who exploit Christian love and the good name of the Church all in a bid to defraud unsuspecting people especially foreigners of money.

The trend has become alarming recently as we receive dozens of mails seeking to verify supposed priests administering bequests of none existing estates, missionaries selling pets that never get delivered or collecting aids for the sick or orphaned with seemingly convincing pictures. We have even seen a situation where a supposed knight collects money to organise homosexual meetings that only take place on sponsored news reports.

The Church of Nigeria strongly dissociates herself from all these activities and states categorically that no respectable minister of the Gospel in our Church nor indeed any true member sends unsolicited mails to people they have never met offering or requesting money.

Though we have over 6,000 ordained clergy, and an even larger number of evangelists and other lay workers, there are organised structures in the Church whereby identities can be verified even to include the ever growing millions of members of the Church.

The Church therefore advises the general public to verify identities of people before sending money to fraudsters who have not the slightest belief in God, but are only trying to use Church sentiments to lure people. AVOID them and IGNORE their mails. Such mails can be reported to the originating ISP (e.g. yahoo, hotmail etc). The mails can also be forwarded to our Government agency info@efccnigeria.org for tracking and prosecution of those involved when caught.

The Lord bless you as you remain steadfast and faithful in Christ.

The Rev. Canon AkinTunde Popoola""

Ashame?

Ashanti?

What you talking about?

In any case, Popoola fooled none with this attempt to smear MacIyalla. To the point that, ahem, during the first day of the current Primates' Meeting:

Peter Akinola asked Davis if they had met before and Davis said yes, they had met several times, when Peter Akinola came to inaugurate the Province of Jos.

AND

Davis told the Archbishop the story of the late bishop Ugede, when they had met at the bishop’s funeral. Davis also told Peter Akinola how he had spent the night at his house following Bishop Ugede’s death in Abuja. Davis went on to describe the formation of Changing Attitude Nigeria.

AND

Peter Akinola then remembered who Davis was and thanked him.

AND

The Archbishop jokingly asked Davis if he was officially invited to the meeting, and Davis replied that no, he is not a Primate.

AND,

They were joined by Colin Coward from Changing Attitude England who had met Archbishop Akinola at the Anglican Consultative Council meeting in Nottingham.

AND, last, but not least,

We exchanged handshakes and greetings with the Archbishop, who was friendly and open.

UTURN, Of course, you know No SHAME.
And then so you post the above deceptions and lies.

VOLers, We need to note a common tactic by the Integrity folks/Changing Attitudes folks, so openly described in this report:

“If they remain inside their own enclave, contact with any of them will be impossible. However, if they want to speak directly to their own lobby group, beyond phone conversations, they will have to come outside. Then Davis will have an opportunity to introduce himself to other primates, including his own, Archbishop Peter Akinola, and engage with them as one Anglican to another. If, like David Anderson and Chris Sugden, they reveal a reluctance to engage, this will reveal the dishonesty of primates who claim to be committed to the listening process and to love their gay and lesbian brothers and sisters in the Anglican Church, but in reality, are unable to overcome their instinctive prejudice and fear.”

Much was made a while back of Archbishop Akinola leaving Louie Crew in the dust at a gathering and removing himself from Crew’s presence after Crew oiled his way over and introduced himself.

It’s common to try to put the orthodox leaders into the awkward spot of either 1) responding to the church political activist as “just a normal human being”—in which case there are subsequent essays about how great everything is between traditionalists and reappraisers and how such nice conversations are had “on social occasions” and how much of the speech by the traditional primates is just “public soapbox stuff that isn’t really sincere” because see how great things are going “privately” or 2) responding to the church political activist as . . . [drum roll] a “church political activist” and leaving that activist immediately upon introduction—at which point the only recourse by someone like Crew is to scream “bigotry” and “did not engage the Listening Process right there at the party”.

I personally think that, for these primates, it’s best to take the latter course, understanding that even the revisionist primates and bishops know *exactly* the game that is being played in these little staged encounters. ""

I think most commenters on this blog know the game too.

Nice Try, UTURN... but your dog does not hunt.


gregory

yeah, but Akinola STILL refused to preach to MacIyalla what Akinola says is an uttermost clear truth in the Scriptures and what Akinola has claimed is reason enough to split the Communion (and cross provincial boundaries, and talk hatred against homosexual people, and make an a$$ of himself and those who follow him every chance he gets to speak publicly about (what he believes to be) THE model for sexual expression of love.

INSTEAD, he shook hands, made jokes, gave thanks, etc etc.

No surprise there's talk about compromising.

UTURN, Your projections of yourself onto others is evident when calling someone an a$$. Isn't a$$ a combination of the two idols you bow your heads into? duh?

Wondered how long it'd be before you played "the hate card" again. Nice try, you need to read the hate card explanation three times and no more whiskey chasers.

"INSTEAD, he shook hands, made jokes, gave thanks, etc etc." LIAR! LIAR! LIAR!

""VOL has learned that Nigerian Archbishop Peter Akinola is not prepared to compromise even to the point of barring the Archbishop of York, John Sentamu from the meeting because VOL exposed him as a shill for the American Episcopal Church at GC2006.""
The Gospel was preached and just like you, some decided to jion with the a$$ instead of jioning with God. duh?

Keep flipping around lies ... your posts really help make the orthodox case.

humbly, gregory

"Choose this Day" video
SEE THIS VIDEO !!!
Watch free on the web at
http://www.anglicandecision.org/

Quote:

Hi Howie G and LionHeart,

oh yeah,
my posting has really frustrated somebody.
my posting on worship leader has been totally eliminated, along with the header from my posting,

then, earlier today,
I sort of questioned why in a posting on this link.

now that is gone also.

Esso Man,
is this how it started out before you got banned from boston?

I wonder if there is a box at the bottom that auto-notifes me if one of my postings is deleted...

truthseekr

Truthseekr, you say "my posting on worship leader has been totally eliminated,"
YES i briefly saw it but was occupied with "gofish" and then it was gone.
Would you PM me with your response?


"along with the header from my posting,"
Well not really because when Howie G responded the header was attached to his response.

i also saw a comment by Lionheart in the thread titled "Churches back plan to unite under Pope" was deleted. i wonder why? Lionheart wasn't even talking about RCC but responding to a new poster "TruthT" about a Orthodoxy question.

humbly, gregory

hi Gregory,
sorry, can not send the original posting,
i did not keep a copy.

truthseekr

Truthseekr, It's okay, i am happy to know you will continue to post and seek the Truth in it all.

Lenten Blessings, gregory