MRS. SCHORI'S FALSE GOSPEL
News Analysis
By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
2/7/2007
The new Presiding Bishop of The Episcopal Church, Katharine Jefferts Schori, has revealed herself to be the mistress of a post-modern deconstructed gospel that pushes earthly salvation, while placing atonement and eternal salvation right outside the orb of Christian conviction.
The 52-year old former oceanographer gave an interview to USA TODAY in which she expounded on what she believes the Christian Faith is all about.
She says she sees two strands of faith: One is "most concerned with atonement that Jesus died for our sins and our most important task is to repent." But the other is "the more gracious strand," she said.
It "is to talk about life, to claim the joy and the blessings for good that it offers, to look forward. God became human in order that we may become divine. That's our task."
Mrs. Schori wants us to reach out to a lost world, not with the timeless message of the Good News of God's salvation through faith in the risen Christ, but with social action.
"It's no longer the social norm to be a Christian," Mrs. Schori says. Her answer isn't to ramp up on orthodoxy but to reach out to all ages and cultures with Christ like social action, she told USA TODAY.
Mrs. Schori equivocates on such essential doctrines such as the necessity for atonement and the exclusivity of salvation through Christ; instead she believes and teaches that the more urgent task is focused on this world rather than worrying about the next world.
"It's not my job to pick" who is saved. "It's God's job," she told USA TODAY.
That, of course, is not the point. It IS God's business who is saved and who is not, but it IS our business to preach the Good News of God's salvation, leaving the results up to the hearer and to God. Mrs. Schori just reshuffled the deck of cards and took out the King of Hearts. By playing the card of who, whom, she avoids the message entirely.
Yes, sin "is pervasive, part of human nature," but "it's not the centerpiece of the Christian message. If we spend our time talking about sin and depravity, it is all we see in the world," she says.
Really. Mrs. Schori must think then that the "Passion of the Christ" was totally unnecessary, and that all the people who saw it (and were converted) were merely being deluded by the Savior of the Universe (who deigned to "become man"). He died a self-deluded Rabbi for the sins of the world because Mrs. Schori believes that money, and lots of it, imparted through 0.7% of TEC's budget and the UN's Millennium Development Goals, will save the world and make everyone happy with a nice middle class home, a 50-inch telly, 2.3 kids and a family dog who will live better than most Third World Bangladeshis.
It is no surprise then that the Rev. Canon David Anderson, president of the American Anglican Council, says her theological statements are not orthodox Christian, not [even] orthodox Anglican. Frankly, they're bizarre, he says.
He's right of course, but that's not the half of it.
By dispensing with the reality of sin and the centrality of atonement, Mrs. Schori dispenses with the need for a bloodstained cross and a sin-bearing Christ, thus reducing Christianity to a "gracious strand" of social activism.
It's ironic when you think about it. The great philanthropic organizations of America -- the Salvation Army and World Vision International, spend tens of millions of dollars annually assisting the poor around the world, while maintaining a solid understanding of the Gospel message that Jesus came into this world to save the lost sinners. The dying thief was not thinking of MDG's when, on his cross, he cried out to Jesus, "remember me this day when you come into paradise." Presumably, had Mrs. Schori been on the other cross, she would be bewailing the church's manifold failure to save the world, (at 0.7% of GNP), even as her unforgiven soul departed to another place.
Her statements reveal she is willing to dump the entire corpus of the Christian Faith into the garbage can of history for a more deserving social activism that goes way beyond what even mainline liberal Protestant denominations in America have been doing for the past half century. This kind of activism has left them dying on the battlefield of historic Christianity - and is now being replaced by a new and vibrant evangelicalism that is also, ironically, socially concerned and aware.
Mrs. Schori wants us to dispense entirely with the Great Commission, which is built on the Great Commandment, for a mess of socially active pottage that may (or may not) take man out of the gutter, while failing completely to take the gutter out of man.
The new leader of The Episcopal Church is prepared to jettison 'the faith once for all delivered to the saints' and then expect to sit down with the saints (archbishops of the Anglican Communion) next week in Tanzania. She may then wonder why a number of them might leave the room as she enters it!
Mrs. Schori just doesn't get it. At a time when there is a massive biblically-based evangelical renaissance in America, led not by TV evangelists, self help gurus or New Age peddlers, but by thinking evangelicals like Rick Warren, Mrs. Schori jettisons the faith faster than American colonists dumping crates of tea bricks from ships into Boston Harbor.
The new evangelicalism has never been more alive, combining head and heart with gospel and social activism in a way that we have not seen since the beginning of the Billy Graham era and the more recent socially concerned evangelical renaissance.
John R. W. Stott, perhaps the greatest living Anglican Evangelical of the 20th Century, commenting on evangelism and social action, has this to say. "If pressed ... *if one has to choose*, eternal salvation is more important than temporal welfare. This seems to be indisputable. But I want immediately to add that one should not normally have to choose."
He is right, of course. As Archbishop William Temple put it, 'if we have to choose between making men Christian and making the social order more Christian, we must make the former. But there is no such antithesis'.
England and Europe are perfect examples of egalitarian societies where few, if any are left behind, but incidents of depression, (major use of anti-depressants) pill-popping, and social disorder are rising. Increasing numbers of sexually transmitted diseases, even violence, continue to rise, filling prisons and psychiatric institutions. Africa, on the other hand, has increasing poverty, high unemployment, HIV/AIDS, all the while it is experiencing a spiritual (Christian) revival the likes of which we have not seen in recent human history! Literally tens of millions are bowing their knee to the Lord Christ with the Anglican Communion in the forefront of major evangelistic efforts. China, too, as Communism declines, has a reported 100 million mostly Evangelical Christians, while card-carrying communists now number only 70 million and is shrinking.
What is even more amazing is that Mrs. Schori's MDG's emphasis failed in her former diocese. When adjusted for population growth or loss, Average Sunday Attendance for the Diocese of Nevada was number 99 (out of 99 dioceses) in The Episcopal Church, losing more than it gained. On the other hand, orthodox dioceses like Pittsburgh and South Carolina, that have a very clear fix on the gospel, ranked third and number one in Average Sunday Attendance. This speaks volumes about Mrs. Schori's false gospel.
What about the TEC's declining numbers? Mrs. Schori admits that membership is down from 3.2 million in 1960 to 2.2 million today, a downward trend similar to all the mainline churches, That is not the real statistic. Real attendance, that is, Average Sunday Attendance, reveals a figure of only 780,000 active Episcopalians.
Mrs. Schori downplays what she calls a tiny but influential number of churches, from Virginia to California, as being little more than "one-half of 1% of the 7,200 congregations," which, she says, have spurned her leadership and the liberal direction of the Episcopal Church to align with Southern Hemisphere traditionalists. What she omitted to say is, while the parishes might be few, the numbers of Episcopalians leaving is huge. For example, the departure of Christ Church, Plano, in the Diocese of Dallas, was the equivalent of the entire Diocese of Nevada!
The parishes leaving are often large cardinal parishes which, by their departure, can and do affect the finances of the diocese, as in the case of the Diocese of Northwest Texas, where Bishop Wallis Ohl faces a major crisis with the departure of his three largest parishes. The Diocese of Kansas lost its largest donor parish, but Bishop Dean Wolfe cut a deal to get income for ten years from Christ Church, Overland Park, and its 1100 parishioners, with Wolfe admitting that the departure of Christ Church put a financial strain on the diocesan budget. His diocesan administrator admitted that of the remaining 49 parishes, a third have fewer than 100 members and cannot survive without diocesan assistance.
Mrs. Schori is strangely silent about diocesan financial loses.
To hear her talk, the future of her denomination is brighter every day with many "healthy, vital churches." This is pure fantasy. The "healthy, vital churches" are leaving the TEC. Look what has happened in the Diocese of Florida. Nearly all the largest parishes have left that diocese, leaving only small parishes and missions to prop up the bishop and the fantasy of MDG's Mrs. Schori hopes will save the world. In the Diocese of Pennsylvania, the finances are such a mess that the diocese can only offer the national church about $200,000 instead of the $700,000 Charles Bennison would like to give to support Mrs. Schori's "vision."
Mrs. Schori forgets Luke 4:18 where Jesus says "the Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are oppressed." Mrs. Schori has no such gospel. Whatever good works she thinks she can accomplish with the minimal resources at her disposal, she completely overlooks the words of our Lord who said the poor we would have with us always. Mrs. Schori thinks she can play God and do better than Jesus with loads of money and an MDG plan.
But the biggest and most arrogant of Mrs. Schori's claims is her belief that she can unite the Anglican Communion with MDG's, even as her province withers and dies, while the provinces of the Global South thrive and grow DESPITE massive social problems.
Do you think for a moment that if the Province of Nigeria reversed its evangelistic thrust and took up MDG's as its new mantra that it would continue to grow and reach its goal of 36 million saved souls under Archbishop Peter Akinola?
Furthermore, the fiction, floated by bishops like John Chane of Washington, that Global South archbishops are not concerned for the welfare of all their people, is a myth needing to be exploded. In recent months, Archbishops Peter Akinola (Nigeria), Benjamin Nzimbi (Kenya) and Henry Luke Orombi (Uganda) have all spoken out about government corruption in their respective countries. To say they are not socially concerned is pure rubbish.
The Anglican Communion is on the brink of collapse. The divisions seem irreconcilable. The Bishop of Durham, Tom Wright, seems now to agree that is the case. http://tinyurl.com/2fswj8 Mrs. Schori cites Gamaliel, in the Book of Acts, who said, 'Well, what you're about may not be right, but we'll just have to wait and see what comes of it. If it is of God, then there won't be any stopping it.'"
The truth is the train has left the station and next week it will stop in Dar es Salaam, where Mrs. Schori might be invited to get off, graciously of course, and if she doesn't, the other primatial passengers might alight, cross the tracks and jump onto a kingdom train that is bound for glory. There won't be any MDG's to contend with, just a train full of saved souls singing the praises of Him who died and rose again. Sadly Mrs. Schori will not be one of them.
For the USA TODAY story click here: http://tinyurl.com/2wyqc7
END
| Poster | Thread |
|---|---|
| ZachD | Posted: 2007/2/7 17:06 Updated: 2007/2/7 17:09 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1791 |
I am fascinated (in a morbid sense) with the 'archbishop bedfellows' above and below the 49th parallel.
Eerie and insular, they seem to be making [beautiful] music together[yaak]. I can't wait for the Tanzania Tango! We shall see, what indeed the American and Canadian legacy will be. Something rancid, undoubtedly. The kind of stuff spewed out of Mouth! |
| dochurt47 | Posted: 2007/2/7 17:15 Updated: 2007/2/7 17:15 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/3/1 From: Posts: 9 |
Schori:
"God became human in order that we may become divine." ===================== And all this time I thought only Roman emperors could make the seemingly impossible jump from human to divine. |
| mathman | Posted: 2007/2/7 17:17 Updated: 2007/2/7 17:17 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/26 From: Rockville, MD Posts: 1064 |
The trouble is not that ??Schori's gospel is false. The trouble is that it is an anti-Gospel. See Gal 1:8-9.
She is proclaiming a word which is not The Word. She is proclaiming a message which is not The Message. Truly I say to you that you have in ??Schori the explicit fulfillment of Jude 4. She has turned the grace of God into licentiousness and denied our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ. And she sits in the chair which should be occupied by a defender of the faith. After reading the USA Today article, it is incomprehensible to me that any person with the most basic familiarity with the Gospel could regard as ??Schori as bearing any relationship whatever to Christianity. And She is going to be welcomed by the prelates? God forbid. |
| lionheart | Posted: 2007/2/7 18:22 Updated: 2007/2/7 18:22 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/19 From: Posts: 354 |
"She says she sees two strands of faith: One is 'most concerned with atonement that Jesus died for our sins and our most important task is to repent.' But the other is 'the more gracious strand,' she said.
It 'is to talk about life, to claim the joy and the blessings for good that it offers, to look forward. God became human in order that we may become divine. That's our task.'" How does man become divine, to be lived by God's Energy, to acquire the Holy Ghost, except by repentance and reformation of one's character? She accepts the goal without really understanding it, and rejects the means. lh |
| Isaac | Posted: 2007/2/7 18:33 Updated: 2007/2/7 18:33 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/3/1 From: Texas Posts: 628 |
False Profit: See Enron.
False Prophet: See KJS. |
| DnNeal | Posted: 2007/2/7 18:37 Updated: 2007/2/7 18:40 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/26 From: Tennessee Posts: 1302 |
lionheart,
Thank you for pointing this out. Her use of the sentence, "God became human so that we may become divine" could have been taken from any one of a large number of Church Fathers accepted generally as "great" by all traditionalist Christians. It reflects the earliest understanding of what it meant to become "sons" of God. There are many scriptures which could be cited in support. From the traditionalist understanding the "becoming divine" means to become children of God, "partakers of the divine nature" (see II Peter 1). It is to them more than a covenant applied externally as a covering but transfiguration of man body, soul, and spirit by the infusion of His divine Life or "energy". Jesus use of Psalm 82:6 in John 10 reflects this as well: 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? Schori's problem is she sets these up as polar opposites because her presuppositions are not Christian in any traditional sense. Her presuppositions require her to see a difference and to denigrate the first so-called "strand". She does not view the creation as "fallen" and hence it does not need a supernatural intervention to essentially "heal" and restore it. All it needs is a lot of "tolerance" and "inclusiveness". Thanks again, Blessings, Neal |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/2/7 19:01 Updated: 2007/2/7 19:01 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Quote:
"And she is going to be welcomed by the prelates?" Sure, mathman! They'll say "hello" to her and ask her to explain herself and TEC's actions, and then they'll go off by themselves. The rest is up for speculation. Cennydd |
| warmac9999 | Posted: 2007/2/7 19:06 Updated: 2007/2/7 19:06 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/2/16 From: Posts: 1463 |
I really wonder how any Christian, who is a Christian in faith, can abide this garbage. The best news is that as Schori talks, she discloses an agenda far removed from Christian principles - and, to her, the further the better. Over time, TEC will simply wither. What a sad and evil state of affairs.
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| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2007/2/7 20:07 Updated: 2007/2/7 20:07 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Naw... Pharaohs did it all the time, too.
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| dturk | Posted: 2007/2/7 20:47 Updated: 2007/2/7 20:47 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/26 From: Posts: 416 |
"Mrs. Schori equivocates on such essential doctrines such as the necessity for atonement and the exclusivity of salvation through Christ; instead she believes and teaches that the more urgent task is focused on this world rather than worrying about the next world."
You're in the wrong Kathryn. Instead, you should have gone into social work or politics. |
| dturk | Posted: 2007/2/7 21:02 Updated: 2007/2/7 21:02 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/26 From: Posts: 416 |
""Mrs. Schori equivocates on such essential doctrines such as the necessity for atonement and the exclusivity of salvation through Christ; instead she believes and teaches that the more urgent task is focused on this world rather than worrying about the next world."
You're in the wrong profession Kathryn. Instead, you should have gone into social work or politics. "What about the TEC's declining numbers? Mrs. Schori admits that membership is down from 3.2 million in 1960 to 2.2 million today, a downward trend similar to all the mainline churches, That is not the real statistic. Real attendance, that is, Average Sunday Attendance, reveals a figure of only 780,000 active Episcopalians." Even if TECs membership figures are correct, this represents an alarming decline in actual membership of 32%. Taken as a percentage of the US population, which increased from about 190 million to about 300 million, in this timeframe, the TEC, as a percentage of the population,plummented from 1.6 to 0.7 percent-- a whopping decline of almost 60%. |
| Guardian | Posted: 2007/2/7 21:15 Updated: 2007/2/7 21:15 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/9/21 From: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 184 |
"It's not my job to pick" who is saved. "It's God's job,"
True ??Schori, but it is your job to be a sheperd to your flock and to lead them on the path to salvation as found in Holy Scripture. |
| Causidicus | Posted: 2007/2/7 23:13 Updated: 2007/2/7 23:13 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/7/3 From: Posts: 1094 |
One wonders whether to laugh, cry or grab the barf bag when she speaks. She is barely a foot soldier in the army of post modern humanist thought but, she is now elevated to the post of presiding Bishop of the tattered remnants of The Episcopal Church of the United States of America. An undeveloped and disreputable theology, a crude understanding of the humanist agenda and its two century march through western civilization, these asinine statements and, good gravy, she is presiding Bishop of...what??? She has to be someone's tool as, she isn't fit for anything else.
If all 40 odd primates don't boot this embarrasment from the club in Tanzania it's gonna be hammer time for the dissenters! Mercy me. Causidicus |
| lookingup | Posted: 2007/2/8 1:10 Updated: 2007/2/8 1:10 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/4 From: USA Posts: 94 |
Bishop J.C. Ryle, Expository Thoughts, Mt 17:12-20
"...our Lord gives us a general caution against the way of the many in religion. It is not enough to think as others think, and do as others do. It must not satisfy us to follow the fashion, and swim with the stream of those among whom we live. He tells us that the way that leads to everlasting life is "narrow," and "few" travel in it; He tells us that the way that leads to everlasting destruction is "broad," and full of travellers: "Many there be that go in thereat." These are fearful truths! They ought to raise great searchings of heart in the minds of all who hear them. "Which way am I going? By what road am I traveling?" In one or other of the two ways here described, every one of us may be found. May God give us an honest, self-inquiring spirit, and show us what we are! We may well tremble and be afraid, if our religion is that of the multitude. If we can say no more then this that "we go where others go, and worship where others worship, and hope we shall do as well as others at last," we are literally pronouncing our own condemnation. What is this but being in the "broad way"? What is this but being in the road whose end is "destruction"? Our religion at present is not saving religion. We have no reason to be discouraged and cast down if the religion we profess is not popular and few agree with us. We must remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ in this passage: "The gate is strait." Repentance, and faith in Christ, and holiness of life, have never been fashionable. The true flock of Christ has always been small. It must not move us to find that we are reckoned singular, and peculiar, and bigoted, and narrow minded. This is "the narrow way." Surely it is better to enter into life eternal with a few, then to go to "destruction" with a great company. In the last place, the Lord Jesus gives us a general warning against false teachers in the church. We are to "beware of false prophets." The connection between this passage and the preceeding one is striking. Would we keep clear of this "broad way"? We must beware of false prophets. They will arise: they began in the days of the apostles; even then the seeds of error were sown. They have appeared continually ever since. We must be prepared for them, and be on our guard. This is a warning which is much needed. There are thousands who seem ready to believe anything in religion, if they hear it from an ordained minister. They forget that clergymen may err as much as laymen: they are not infallible. Their teaching must be weighed in the balance of Holy Scripture: they are to be followed and believed, so long as their doctrine agrees with the Bible, but not a minute longer. We are to try them "by their fruits." Sound doctrine and holy living are the marks of true prophets. Let us remember this. Our minster's mistakes will not excuse our own. "If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." (Matt. 15:14.) What is the best safe-guard against false teaching? Beyond all doubt the regular study of the Word of God, with prayer for the teaching of the Holy Spirit. The Bible was given to be a lamp to our feet and a light to our path. (Psalm 119:105.) The man who reads it aright will never be allowed greatly to err. It is neglect of the Bible which makes so many a prey to the first false teacher whom they hear. They would fain have us believe that "they are not learned, and do not pretend to have decided opinions:" the plain truth is that they are lazy and idle abourt reading the Bible, and do not like the trouble of thinking for themselves. Nothing supplies false prophets with followers so much as spiritual sloth under a clock of humility. May we all bear in mind our Lord's warning! The world, the devil, and the flesh, are not the only dangers in the way of the Christian; there remains another yet, and that is the "false prophet:" the wolf in sheep's clothing. Happy is he who prays over his Bible, and knows the difference between truth and error in religion! There is a difference, and we are meant to know it, and to use our knowledge." |
| Ikerliker | Posted: 2007/2/8 2:44 Updated: 2007/2/8 2:44 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2051 |
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burn with brimstone. Rev. 19:20
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| bradhutt | Posted: 2007/2/8 8:21 Updated: 2007/2/8 8:21 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/5 From: Washington D.C. Metro Area Posts: 146 |
Mrs. Schori is the best thing that has happened to the Orthodox in the Episcopal Church in years.
She leaves no doubt as to how far down the cliff the leadership of this once proud church has fallen. |
| Ikerliker | Posted: 2007/2/8 11:07 Updated: 2007/2/8 11:07 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2051 |
Amen brother!
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| Falcon | Posted: 2007/2/8 11:53 Updated: 2007/2/8 11:53 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/16 From: A State Close to Heaven Posts: 137 |
“Mrs. Schori is the best thing that has happened to the Orthodox in the Episcopal Church in years.”
_________ My thoughts precisely, bradhutt. Long ago I read an interesting editorial that said the thing that destroyed the Soviet Union was laughter. After seventy years nearly everyone knew that the Communist system just did not work and was unsustainable. It had become the butt of billions of jokes. It was simply laughable to think things could continue the way they were. The situation in TEC has become so absurd that it, too, is rapidly devolving from tragedy to farce. Wasn’t it Peter Toon who predicted that Episcopalians would be quite successful in filling the pews of Evangelical, Roman Catholic, and Eastern and Western Orthodox churches? What a shame. Don't know whether to put a frowning or laughing smiley on this comment. |
| Helena | Posted: 2007/2/8 14:49 Updated: 2007/2/8 14:49 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/16 From: Posts: 75 |
Causidicus,
I second your observations of TEC's "undeveloped and disreputable theology" and absolutely everything else you say. ![]() |
| JPollard | Posted: 2007/2/8 14:56 Updated: 2007/2/8 14:56 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/24 From: Montgomery, Alabama Posts: 17 |
Looks like the die is cast, the time for separation has come. I pray the bishops act boldly in the faith at Tanzania. Stop his sinful foolishness, and proceed with the Great Commission!
Jeff Pollard Montgomery, Alabama, USA |
| Howell | Posted: 2007/2/8 15:07 Updated: 2007/2/8 15:07 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/13 From: Colorado Posts: 444 |
Could it be that Shori and Cindy Sheehan are twin sisters separated at birth? Both seem to be missing the gene related to "reality".
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| Marlin | Posted: 2007/2/8 15:31 Updated: 2007/2/8 15:31 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/9 From: Springfield Ohio Posts: 38 |
Quote:
Poster: dochurt47 Posted: 2007/2/7 17:15:20 This, beyond any shadow of doubt is pagan. How much more of this paganization of Christianity do we have to put up with before even the silent majority will wake up and get their heads out of the sand. |
| dedaze | Posted: 2007/2/8 15:49 Updated: 2007/2/8 15:49 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/20 From: Jacksonville, Florida Posts: 13 |
Sin is such a downer. I imagine if Jesus had our 2,000 years of theological reflection he probably woiuld have come up with the correct answer too. Imagine how wonderful the gospel would have been if it wern't so negative. I hope KJS can fix it.
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| DnNeal | Posted: 2007/2/8 16:17 Updated: 2007/2/8 16:17 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/26 From: Tennessee Posts: 1302 |
Katherine Schori's version of "God became human in order that we may become divine"
certainly IS pagan...The version coming from the Father's of the Church is not. The Father's never meant by that that men become God Himself but that they share in divine Life by grace. What did St. Peter mean when he wrote that we become "partakers of the divine nature" if not that we share in divine Life? Another term used in scripture is "glorification". What does this mean except that we share in God's glory by His gracious presence in us? It is equally impossible that God could take on human flesh. Even if you don't agree with this way of viewing redemption please don't misrepresent what it means to those of us who do. We do not agree with Schori's misinterpretation of the Patristic quotation and we are not pagans. Blessings, Neal |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/2/8 18:03 Updated: 2007/2/8 18:03 |
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DnNeal wrote:
"Katherine Schori's version of "God became human in order that we may become divine" certainly IS pagan..." Further to DnNeal's comments, Ms Schori's statement in context is heresy because only God is the Uncreated--humans are created and cannot become uncreated. Ms Schori and TEc advocate idolatry--they have "worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator" (Rom 1:25). Blessings, wopriest+ |
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| DnNeal | Posted: 2007/2/8 19:50 Updated: 2007/2/8 19:50 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/26 From: Tennessee Posts: 1302 |
Thanks, wopriest
Neal |
| kepha | Posted: 2007/2/8 21:55 Updated: 2007/2/8 21:55 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/11/16 From: Posts: 165 |
This is tragic. Someone who calls herself a Christian overseer finds something "ungracious" about the atonement which Christ made on behalf of us sinners and repentance unto life, which the book of Acts tells us is something which God grants. Ms. Schori simply does not understand the Gospel.
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| boggy | Posted: 2007/2/9 12:37 Updated: 2007/2/9 12:37 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/8/29 From: Posts: 167 |
It "is to talk about life, to claim the joy and the blessings for good that it offers, to look forward. God became human in order that we may become divine. That's our task."
This is not the narrow way of the cross. It is a downhill run. |
| willpath | Posted: 2007/2/9 20:38 Updated: 2007/2/9 20:39 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/3/4 From: Northwest Posts: 67 |
"This is tragic. Someone who calls herself a Christian overseer finds something "ungracious" about the atonement which Christ made on behalf of us sinners..."
------------------------------------------------- How true, how true. I hope she repeats these words openly in Tanzania - it should make the Primtaes' decision-making easier.... |
| FatherR | Posted: 2007/2/10 0:27 Updated: 2007/2/10 0:27 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/2/9 From: Wisconsin Posts: 71 |
willpath wrote: "This is tragic. Someone who calls herself a Christian overseer finds something "ungracious" about the atonement which Christ made on behalf of us sinners..." How sad. I too hope she speaks like this openly in front of the Primates in Tanzania. It really should make their decision-making a lot easier. It will because they will be able to plainly see how far the decision makers at 815 have strayed from the Gospel. We all need to take seriously the commands of the Lord to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, and heal the sick. That is part and parcle of the Gospel message, but it is certainly not the only part. We CANNOT neglect the part that says we are to go forth and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." We need both parts of the Gospel message.
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| logos | Posted: 2007/2/10 5:05 Updated: 2007/2/10 5:05 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/4/17 From: Posts: 34 |
Let her be the mascot for TEC and let her pose like this;
In her "wizard' costume she wore for her nstallation ceremony, holding a handbell with no clapper inside, symbolozing TEC - it's hollow, there's nothing inside. |
| unitarian | Posted: 2007/2/10 14:02 Updated: 2007/2/10 14:02 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/12/31 From: Bryn Mawr, PA Posts: 307 |
The genius and truth of the Christian message is that it locates the divine in the midst of suffering, abuse, disease, and so forth. Jesus embraced the outcasts and the sinners and healed the sick. Not unconditionally, but as part of His ministry. St.Francis embraced the lepers. This is very unlike many other religions which stress avoidance of the unclean (Hinduism, Judaism, to some extent Islam), or sanctification of the solitary individual (Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity misunderstood, certain types of mysticism), or escape from the world of "red dust" (Buddhism).
Sin is the fundamental reality of the human condition. If you seek proof that humanity is fallen, just look around you. Human effort alone is powerless to redeem man's own fallen nature, or to repair a fallen society. This is absolutely the core, as I see it. Did John the Baptist urge people to "reach out"? No. He said, "Repent." So did Our Lady of Fatima--Penance, penance, penance--whether we believe that she truly appeared or not. Can you imagine her instructing the witnesses:"go forth and be inclusive? Contribute more to the United Way?" No point in her turning up if that was all she had to say. Repentance and an understanding that we are ALL miserable offenders, having no health in us, is where it all begins. The social gospel crashed and burned last time around. Why should this time be any different? And it is offensive to suggest that the call for repentance is the less "gracious" strand (frankly I'm not sure the other is a strand in orthodox Christianity). My Christian Unitarian friends all agree that the awareness of sin, how deeply we are all mucked into it, is the beginning of the religious journey. Boston Unitarian |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/2/10 23:42 Updated: 2007/2/10 23:42 |
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Schori sounds like Satan's ideas: Don't worry about eternity, or salvation. Worry only about the world here around you, and what you can take from it.
Yuk. |
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| borgy | Posted: 2007/2/11 2:43 Updated: 2007/2/11 2:43 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/12/21 From: Posts: 115 |
Sorry folks. But when Dave returns from Tanzania his report is going to use the terms "mixed results," "no action taken," and "inconclusive" quite a bit. It will be the same for Lambeth next year...and the meeting after that...and the meeting after that...and the meeting after that....and the meeting after that....
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| Ikerliker | Posted: 2007/2/11 15:28 Updated: 2007/2/11 15:28 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2051 |
If that happens, then it IS time to get out. All will be lost!!!!
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| borgy | Posted: 2007/2/11 18:17 Updated: 2007/2/11 18:17 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/12/21 From: Posts: 115 |
I hope I'm wrong about prospects for the primate's meeting BUT GC 2003 was four long years ago. It took less time to fight World War II.
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| Laytone | Posted: 2007/2/12 18:30 Updated: 2007/2/12 18:30 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/21 From: Brewton, Alabama Posts: 90 |
She says she sees two strands of faith: One is "most concerned with atonement that Jesus died for our sins and our most important task is to repent." But the other is "the more gracious strand," she said.
Gee, that's a new development. I didn't know we were offered "multiple choice" options. In fact, the way we and our children were taught was pretty straight forward. "JESUS loves me this i know for the BIBLE tells me so." I don't remember MDG's as being an intregral part of either the Old or New Testament. Those were being addressed by the conquering governments of the time . . . Egypt and Rome. |


























