THE PRESUMPTION OF GENE ROBINSON
News Analysis
By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
1/27/2007
V. Gene Robinson, the homoerotic Bishop of New Hampshire believes, like the Blues Brothers, that he is on a mission from God - in his case, to unite the Anglican world over homosexual behavior.
At the center of the divide, Robinson, the Episcopal Church's first ordained homosexual bishop says he sees a higher purpose to the debate, and said so at a gathering of clergy in Hartford, Connecticut en route to Colorado and the Sundance Film Festival there to view a documentary film, featuring his story and those of four other gay families, that had been nominated for a grand jury prize.
Titled "For the Bible Tells Me So," it is about families split by their beliefs about homosexuality and Scripture. Robinson didn't mention that another Sundance movie ZOO expounded on the joys of bestiality, a position, along with polygamy, that logically follows now that the Pandora's Box of sexualities has sprung wide open in The Episcopal Church.
Robinson, now confident that he is winning the Culture Wars on sexuality in The Episcopal Church with the help of Mrs. Schori and her unleashed legal Doberman David Booth Beers whose job it is to keep bishops from losing their nerve and leaving the TEC, and making sure that their churches stay in line, is now prepared to go out on a limb and hurl it in our faces that the jig is up and he and his pansexual pals have won. His message is one of reconciliation, he says, but it is on his terms and not on those of the orthodox. He wants us to be reconciled to sodomy so he can feel good about himself, justify his lifestyle, and believe he is going to heaven.
Robinson is so confident of his position, and the rightness of his cause, that he publicly espoused the view that he and Nigerian Archbishop Peter Akinola would one day be heaven together. "I believe with my whole heart that the Archbishop of Nigeria [Peter Akinola] and I are going to be in heaven together. And we're going to get along together, because God won't have it any other way. So we better start practicing now," said Robinson to the dozen local church leaders at Real Art Ways cinema.
Really. The hubris of this statement reeks to high heaven. Robinson and his homosexual Episcopal pals have spent the last three years blasting Akinola for massive homophobia, fundamentalism, lacking diversity and inclusivity, narrow-mindedness, accusing him and the Global South Archbishops and orthodox American bishops of fomenting schism, when it is he and his friends who have brought on the crisis in the Anglican Communion, and now Robinson says that one day he'll be in heaven with the Nigerian leader!
This begs the question; would Akinola want to be in heaven with Robinson? The way to heaven is through the shed blood of the Lamb, through repentance and faith, through obedience to God's revealed will. Robinson believes he can discard the Moral Law of God; that he and a few of his friends can toss out thousands of years of received teaching just to suit his own (homo)erotic tastes and ends, and then says he will go to heaven. It is even the title of his new book "Going to Heaven".
Robinson presumes too much. He presumes on a God who will blink and then wink at his behavior. Robinson believes in a God who he thinks has changed his mind to suit his own homoerotic desires and fantasies; steadfastly refusing to conform to God's will, demanding that God conform to his will. That is a damaging, eternally dangerous fiction that no person who takes Scripture seriously should presume on. Robinson no longer believes in the efficacy of Christ's atoning work at the cross for our sins, he rejects the atonement as necessary for salvation, holding with Pa. Bishop Charles Bennison that the church wrote the Bible and can therefore rewrite it - to include homoerotic sex.
But God is not mocked. We reap what we sow. The Episcopal Church is emptying faster than a broken sewer pipe.
Then Robinson made an extraordinary statement about prayer. "The thing that has sustained me through all this is God has seemed so very close that prayer has seemed almost redundant. ... Sometimes God calms the storm and sometimes God lets the storm rage, and calms the child." Personally, "I couldn't be happier. I think that's the best revenge," he said.
So Robinson doesn't pray or need to pray. His end is to be "happy." How ironic. On the eve of his death Jesus spends the night in prayer in a garden, "sweating as it were great drops of blood" praying that "this cup would pass from me" but ready to do His Father's will. Robinson, by contrast, is so confident in his personal righteousness and the rightness of his cause, he can discard prayer, claim he is happy and announce to all and sundry that he has won.
When the lunch ended, Robinson hugged his host, Bishop John Selders of the Amistad United Church of Christ. Interesting, why were none of the three Connecticut Episcopal bishops anywhere to be found? Were they keeping their distance from the controversial bishop for fear that their presence would only heighten the tensions already present in the church and ratchet up the anger on Mrs. Schori when she attends the Primates meeting in Tanzania next month?
Clearly that was not a concern of Bishop Robinson. In an attempt to deflect and play down the crisis in The Episcopal Church, Robinson said the media exaggerated the strength and importance of the small minority of parishes at odds with the national church's liberal stance on homosexuality. The parishes are "seeking to get themselves recognized as the true expression of Anglicanism in this country and not inconsequentially get the Episcopal Church - I don't know what the word is - unrecognized as that legitimate expression. And I think they are using more conservative churches around the globe to support that claim," he said.
Robinson will not face the fact that tens of thousands of Episcopalians are leaving the TEC weekly, and while the parishes may be few in number, the number of people leaving is huge. The only figure to note is Average Sunday Attendance (ASA) and that figure is now well below 780,000 and sinking.
In a final blast, Robinson tried to dismiss the crisis in the Communion saying that in a world facing 40 million people dying of AIDS (a large proportion of whom are gay men practicing anal sex) and the gap only increases between rich and poor, "this seems like a waste of our time and energy, debating the rightness and wrongness of gay and lesbian people and their relationships," he said.
Not if the eternal destiny of souls is at stake, and archbishops like Akinola, and Uganda Archbishop Henry Luke Orombi, Kenyan Archbishop Benjamin Nzimbi, Central African Archbishop Bernard Malango and American bishops like Robert Duncan (Pittsburgh) believe otherwise, then what is at stake is the veracity of the life-changing message of the gospel itself - and that they will not compromise on.
Perhaps Robinson should be mindful of some words of Jesus who said that many would claim to speak for him saying, "Lord, Lord did we not...and He will say depart from me I never knew you."
END
| Poster | Thread |
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| dturk | Posted: 2007/1/27 20:11 Updated: 2007/1/27 20:12 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/26 From: Posts: 416 |
This article makes it pitifully obvious that this pathetic lunatic and reality waived bye bye to each to each other ages ago. How can anyone take this demented freak seriously? He has been about as uniting to Anglicanism as a cleaver slaming aginst a tenderloin.
His sexuality aside, the big question is how could this cornucopia of psychological disorders and heresy ever gotten ordained, let alone consecrated a bishop. Instead of using seminaries as a source of ordinands, TEC might as well use inmates in the psycho ward at Bellvue or members of the Rosicrucians. |
| FrankV | Posted: 2007/1/27 20:50 Updated: 2007/1/27 20:50 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/5 From: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 302 |
The fact that Robinson attended the Sundance Film Festival says about all that needs to be said about his spirituality. The Sundance Film Festival is the sewer of Hollywood. A pit of excrement stirred by the souls of Satan’s servants. One of the movies praised as uplifting by the Los Angeles Times film critic had to do with sexual relations with a horse – bestiality. Will this be Robinson’s next effort? "I believe with my whole heart that the Archbishop of Nigeria [Peter Akinola] and I are going to be in heaven together. And we're going to get along together, because God won't have it any other way. So we better start practicing now," said Robinson to the dozen local church leaders at Real Art Ways cinema. No way Jose’. Robinson will be placed in the third level of the seventh circle of Dante’s Inferno with the other heretics and sodomizers; while Akinola will be playing his harp in Heaven. Robinson does not need prayer because he has already sold his soul to the Devil. |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2007/1/27 21:00 Updated: 2007/1/27 21:00 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Quote:
Robinson is so confident of his position, and the rightness of his cause, that he publicly espoused the view that he and Nigerian Archbishop Peter Akinola would one day be heaven together. So Vickie-Jean Robed-in-Sin has repented? HALLELUJAH! Okay... I was being silly ![]() |
| xecusa | Posted: 2007/1/27 22:11 Updated: 2007/1/27 23:27 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/3/6 From: Central OK Posts: 106 |
Dturk:
It is very simple how they got ordained. Just look at the 1979 BAS vs the original work of Cramner and the 1928 BCP, paying attention to the ordinal section, as well, some prayers are toned down to the point that asking for protection from sucumbing to wordly desires are no longer included...I guess they just aren't sinful anymore in the eyes of the "new church". As well, the dilution of the episcopate from invalidly ordained women bishops will continue the deterioration of the priesthood. The Church has always required five conditions for a valid Sacrament: proper subject, matter, form, minister and intention...four if not all of which are absent in the ordination of women priests, and subsequent women bishops ordaining male candidates and potentially all ordinations using the deficient rite of ordination and consecration from 1979 BAS. Xecusa |
| logos | Posted: 2007/1/27 22:48 Updated: 2007/1/27 22:48 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/4/17 From: Posts: 34 |
Among the Scriptures he and his folowers "tore out"
16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Hebrews 12:16 |
| cuervoria | Posted: 2007/1/27 23:33 Updated: 2007/1/27 23:33 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/15 From: College Station, Texas Posts: 541 |
It is even the title of his new book "Going to Heaven".
I really wish someone would proofread before they print this stuff. The title is "Going to Heave." de la Cuervoria |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/1/28 0:07 Updated: 2007/1/28 0:07 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
The more I hear and read about so-called "Bishop" Robinson, the more disgusted I get....not with just him, but ALL of the revisionist heretics in TEC! Every single one of them!
Cennydd |
| xecusa | Posted: 2007/1/28 0:10 Updated: 2007/1/28 1:23 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/3/6 From: Central OK Posts: 106 |
You all must google robinson and sundance...and you will get a hit on an interview with V. G. Robinson on his "starring role" in the film "The Bible tells me so"
http://tinyurl.com/2xjfby In it, he says, "The Bible is mine. It has stories about me, a gay man...The whole Exodus story is a gay and lesbian story." Then he goes into a comparison of his life to the Exodus story. WOW! Unbelievable. He is so full of " a spirit" |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/1/28 0:17 Updated: 2007/1/28 0:18 |
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Quote:
"Robinson presumes too much. He presumes on a God who will blink and then wink at his behavior. Robinson believes in a God who he thinks has changed his mind to suit his own homoerotic desires and fantasies; steadfastly refusing to conform to God's will, demanding that God conform to his will." Here is a good definition of insanity. Someone out of touch with reality. VGR is possibly insane or in denial. BHTech |
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| Cennydd | Posted: 2007/1/28 0:25 Updated: 2007/1/28 0:25 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
He's full of something alright, xecusa, but it AIN'T "a spirit!" I'm sure you know what I mean.
Cennydd |
| Guardian | Posted: 2007/1/28 1:01 Updated: 2007/1/28 1:01 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/9/21 From: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 184 |
"I believe with my whole heart that the Archbishop of Nigeria [Peter Akinola] and I are going to be in heaven together."
No Bishop Robinson, I do not believe you will be spending eternity in heaven with Bishop Akinola. Jude 1:13 is a much more likely description of what awaits you. "They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever." |
| FrPhillips | Posted: 2007/1/28 1:48 Updated: 2007/1/28 1:48 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/20 From: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 26 |
In the midst of the serious nature of this story, the prize line goes to de la Cuervoria, "Going to Heave."
I practically spewed my bourbon all over my keyboard, I laughed so hard. |
| Isaac | Posted: 2007/1/28 2:03 Updated: 2007/1/28 2:03 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/3/1 From: Texas Posts: 628 |
It brings our side untold benefit when bright lights are shined upon Vickie Gene Robinson.
Isaac |
| fastball | Posted: 2007/1/28 2:39 Updated: 2007/1/28 2:39 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/29 From: Oklahoma City Posts: 555 |
It is even the title of his new book "Going to Heaven".
------------------------------------------------- To be followed by his sequel, "Pervert at the Pearly Gates- A Gay Bishop's Tail." ![]() |
| ZachD | Posted: 2007/1/28 3:01 Updated: 2007/1/28 3:01 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1791 |
I can't wait to read and post at this thread!
Just queing up! |
| Antique | Posted: 2007/1/28 3:57 Updated: 2007/1/28 3:57 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/9/19 From: Posts: 42 |
It's just so--Oh! Thrilling!--to know our favorite bishop has his ecclesiastical duties so well in order that he has time to spend making a movie about himself. He's the first bishop ever to achieve such a perfect status over his flock that no one needs his time. Sort of gives one a tingly feeling all over!
Or is that a shudder I feel? I'm trying to remember who it was... Our good +Robinson, I think... who made the same sort of claim about the book of Ruth being all about a lesbian experience. The day will come when he says Jesus and Peter had thing going on. You know, all those times Jesus asked him, "Do you love me, Peter?" And really--just what WAS Aaron doing alone in the tabernacle every weekend all those years in the hot, steamy desert? Who did he have in there with him? Had to be man, you know, as women weren't allowed beyond the courtyard. (Ooh! Those hateful misogynists get my knickers in a twist! If only they'd let a WOMAN handle everything, SHE at least would have asked directions so they wouldn't have gotten lost for 40 years!) And the LBG<whatever the letters are> political groups say there isn't any such thing as a "gay agenda." Ha! Trying to recast the Bible into a series of gay stories certainly qualifies as an agenda! I've no intention of seeing the film, but I hope he discredits his teachings in it. There's no laughingstock like one who makes himself as such. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/1/28 5:35 Updated: 2007/1/28 5:36 |
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The radical militant homo/lesbo/trans/bisexual-fundies can dream all they want - If they want to change, all what they need to do is throw themselves at the Throne of Our Triune God and begin confessing, repenting and turning away from their intrinsically disordered and deviant carnal desires.
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| Kent_Wms | Posted: 2007/1/28 11:26 Updated: 2007/1/28 11:26 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/2/4 From: Arlington, VA Posts: 90 |
I will bet that one of Mr. Robinson's more foundational presumptions is that everyone will be going to Heaven. Ergo Akinola, Orombi, Duncan, etc. will be there with him.
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| OtisPage | Posted: 2007/1/28 11:45 Updated: 2007/1/28 11:47 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/4 From: Posts: 667 |
Robinson’s witness is an abject confirmation of the evil denying God and serving self.
Here is a man who has defiled first his marriage, then the Episcopal Church and thereby the Anglican Communion, and the witness of the Christ’s morale code of sexual relations – explicitly stated and confirmed by tradition that reaches beyond the act to intent! (Matt 5:27, 28) The evil possessed in aberrant sexual practices – of which same-sex relations is Robinson’s, Spong’s and Griswold’s mark of disgrace – is the core issue of the soul in sizing one’s character. It is not that we sin in sexual matters – a great offense against God and one’s personal character, only reconciled by a humble and truthful confession (1John 1:8-10), it is the prevarication, the rupture of the truth, that one’s promiscuous sexual conduct and aberrant practices is not sin – as homosexual’s profess and swear in the name of “the right of orgasm” and “genital expression” as advocated and condoned by Robinson’s (et al) witness. That a once great church (TEC) has not risen up to repel this evil – that in the name of inclusion and relativism has embraced the evil, betrays TEC’s Saints and the Anglican Communion. This brings the lesson of Sodom and Gomorrah to the present scene that God has “thrown over” to themselves (church and individuals alike) the evil of same-sex relations (Rom 1:18-32) that exemplifies Robinson’s witness. |
| john4woman | Posted: 2007/1/28 15:21 Updated: 2007/1/28 15:21 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/28 From: california Posts: 104 |
"Robinson presumes too much. He presumes on a God who will blink and then wink at his behavior."
I recently read something similar that was said by an athiest who, when pressed, stated that if there was a God, then ALL would be taken to heaven and if not, then he, the atheist, wasn't interested in such a God. The hubris of these people knows no bounds, nor will their regret on Judgement Day! |
| cjanning | Posted: 2007/1/28 17:03 Updated: 2007/1/28 18:25 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/12/19 From: Deep East Texas Posts: 279 |
The Epistle of Jude 1:17-19
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. Bp. Robinson has a "spirit", just not the Holy Spirit. |
| lionheart | Posted: 2007/1/28 17:48 Updated: 2007/1/28 17:48 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/19 From: Posts: 354 |
The truly diabolical part of it all is that TEC, which enables and encourages this person, claims to be Christian in some way. If they were just honest and open and said, "We no longer believe in Christianity and are no longer Christians. We will call ourselves the assembly of {fill in the blank), a non-Christian entity.", then it would not be so offensive. They could forsake scriptures they don't believe in and take down the crosses. But instead, they try to drag the name of Christ through the filth and claim to be His church. They are truly a cancer. They have destroyed TEC from within and their fellow revisionists have, to one extent or another, infiltrated most of the churches. They are children of the greatest Liar.
lh |
| lionheart | Posted: 2007/1/28 17:55 Updated: 2007/1/28 17:55 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/19 From: Posts: 354 |
Formerly, if someone had nasty inclinations such as attraction to those of the same sex, to small children, to animals, etc., they would strive to remain celibate, keep it to themselves or their confessor, and live with the burden. Some sinned but did so discretely, not out in front of God and everybody. Now we call one kind of deviancy mentioned above "gay" and are being taught to pin that label on someone who suffers from these desires. We are taught to think of it as an "orientation". The language itself has been turned against us. It's a shame the change has been gradual. Remember, that's how you boil a frog, turn up the heat so slowly that he doesn't notice too much.
lh |
| CarlGustav | Posted: 2007/1/28 20:05 Updated: 2007/1/28 20:05 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/8/23 From: Wisconsin Posts: 14 |
"I believe with my whole heart that the Archbishop of Nigeria [Peter Akinola] and I are going to be in heaven together. And we're going to get along together, because God won't have it any other way. So we better start practicing now,"
Since I am reluctant to predict anyone's eternal destiny, that might indeed happen but Bishop Robinson may have to spend a lot of time in the refining fires before he links up with Bishop Akinola in heaven. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/1/28 22:52 Updated: 2007/1/28 22:52 |
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God's peace. CarlGustav said: " Bishop Robinson may have to spend a lot of time in the refining fires before he links up with Bishop Akinola in heaven."
Well, I suppose that's charitable--as is calling Robinson a bishop--but if what Robinson calls Christianity is in any sense true, then I am in complete ignorance of holiness and the Gospel. Of course, Robinson would agree with me (as he put his arm around me and drew me close). Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~ |
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| ZachD | Posted: 2007/1/29 1:35 Updated: 2007/1/29 1:35 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1791 |
Tikhon - Thanks for your 'intrinsically disordered' comment. I was queing that up for my response to this thread. Intrinsically disordered goes for his ghoul-inspired lug-nut peers, as well.
They have surrendered the truth for a lie. They are also 'given over' to foul and obscene desires. You have all heard the disordered ones on this blog. They feel that God and the rest of us owe them something. We owe them the world. The world will then not be enough, either! They will want more. They will stand before Almighty God at the (white throne) judgement, and shake their fists and gnash their teeth! They have eaten the bread and tasted the provision of the 1st. in Rebellion, and have worshiped him. The only hope that remains for this lot, likely, is the prayers of the faithful that God will rescue them before it is too late. And Br_Carlo: thanks for the imagery, but no thanks! ![]() |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/1/29 3:57 Updated: 2007/1/30 4:01 |
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ZachD,
You're welcome dear sir. Ya know - one does get exhausted with all the attempts by the *homo-fundies* and their enablers seeking to *normalize* that which is *abnormal* - Whoah, make that *intrinsically disordered abnormalities*. In Xrist, Tikhon |
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| billyum | Posted: 2007/1/29 4:05 Updated: 2007/1/29 4:05 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/18 From: Morgan Hill, CA Posts: 52 |
If the TEC continues on its present course, I would say give it perhaps another 30 years (or less) and TEC will become another relatively insignificant "ecclesiastical flophouse" like the Unitarian Universalist church.
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| nancyrowe | Posted: 2007/1/29 10:14 Updated: 2007/1/29 10:14 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/9 From: NH Posts: 105 |
I won't presume to say with certainty that VGR is beyond "going to heaven." That is up to God himself.
So, with that in mind, here is the scenario where Gene Robinson and Akinola are in heaven together, and getting along: AKINOLA (REGIONAL MAGISTRATE OVER 100 MILLION CHRISTIANS, LIVING IN A SQUARE-BLOCK MANSION, AND HIGHLY FAVORED OF GOD): "Gene, would you please dig the hole a little deeper?" GENE ROBINSON (squeaked through, no heavenly reward at all): "Sir, Yes, Sir, I will dig the hole deeper!" ![]() |
| mathman | Posted: 2007/1/29 10:28 Updated: 2007/1/29 10:28 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/26 From: Rockville, MD Posts: 1063 |
At least now we know what "Project 2020" is all about. It is to have the membership in TEC down to 2020 persons by the year 2020.
How, exactly, do you have a Christian denomination without God? The Unitarians at least have a Creator. But the new TEC seems to have "God is love". Or so I assume from the convocation of the Annual Meeting of the Diocese of Washington recently. The service was not invoked in the name of the Triune God. There were no warnings concerning taking the Eucharist in an unworthy manner. And the only references to the Resurrection were in the mandated text of the Consecration. #@&%?Robinson is just the harbinger of the future of TEC. He is reserved in everlasting chains under densest darkness for the judgment of the great day. I read that somewhere. Oh, yes. And outside are dogs, sorcerers, immoral persons, idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Let the reader understand. It is going to be ugly on the day described in Matt 25:31. That word "begone" ought to send a chill up your spine! |
| gregory | Posted: 2007/1/29 12:58 Updated: 2007/1/29 13:57 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
QUOTING
A man cannot think himself out of mental evil; for it is actually the organ of thought that has become diseased, ungovernable, and, as it were, independent. He can only be saved by will or faith. The moment his mere reason moves, it moves in the old circular rut; he will go round and round his logical circle,... ...the madman is quite sure he is sane. But over his cell shall be written, with dreadful truth, “He believes in himself.” It is absurd to say that you are especially advancing freedom when you only use free thought to destroy free will. The determinists come to bind, not to loose. ![]() ...very well presented by a serpent eating his tail, a degraded animal who destroys even himself. ... As we have taken the circle as the symbol of reason and madness, we may very well take the cross as the symbol at once of mystery and of health. Buddhism is centripetal, but Christianity is centrifugal: it breaks out. For the circle is perfect and infinite in its nature; but it is fixed for ever in its size; it can never be larger or smaller. But the cross, though it has at its heart a collision and a contradiction, can extend its four arms for ever without altering its shape. Because it has a paradox in its centre it can grow without changing. The circle returns upon itself and is bound. The cross opens its arms to the four winds; it is a signpost for free travellers. Okay maybe you'd like to see from where i am quoting then CLICK! humbly presented, gregory |
| Philippa | Posted: 2007/1/29 17:24 Updated: 2007/1/29 17:24 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/8/28 From: Posts: 489 |
David, I realize you're trying to get the news out, but it might be to the point where there's no longer any reason to give this narcissist and his pathetic filth a sound byte.
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| ZachD | Posted: 2007/1/29 19:14 Updated: 2007/1/29 19:14 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1791 |
Thanks, Philippa.
It is a pity that we don't hear more from you! Blessings, |
| warmac9999 | Posted: 2007/1/29 22:43 Updated: 2007/1/29 22:43 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/2/16 From: Posts: 1463 |
There are no trends that favor the current direction of the Episcopal Church. Not only are people leaving, but others are not arriving (particularly the young families). Volunteerism is shrinking as people just go to church and leave - they want to be left alone and not get into confrontations.
Elsewhere on this board was the comment that the Episcopal church will be reduced to a sect by 2030. If you follow the situation in the Canadian church, which undertook these liberal revisionisms much earlier, then the Episcopal church will eventually just disappear from national public view in a few decades. The loss of 40,000 congregants per year may be a small number to Schori and the other revisionists, but it is a strong indicator of disapproval and distrust by the most active laity. It is quite possible the the Episcopal church will claim 2 million members for the foreseeable future just to make the numbers look good. Far more telling is the decline in average Sunday attendance which should drop under the 700,000 mark this next year and under 500,000 within the next decade. The only things propping this mess up are the endowments and the anticipated revenues from the sale or rental of abandoned churches to Muslims. (And if you think this isn't the case, just look at what is happening to the great churches of Europe.) |
| willpath | Posted: 2007/1/29 22:44 Updated: 2007/1/29 22:44 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/3/4 From: Northwest Posts: 67 |
Gregory - thank you for the link.
I have to agree with Philippa; things will be better (i.e. more positive) when the ecclesiastical divorce is final, and the orthodox will have no particular reason to concern themselves with little Gene's personal problems. Unfortunately, while some clarity is approaching, it will be many years before the mess is cleaned up.... |
| sentinel | Posted: 2007/1/30 0:58 Updated: 2007/1/30 0:58 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/11 From: Posts: 263 |
Quote:
Since I am reluctant to predict anyone's eternal destiny, that might indeed happen but Bishop Robinson may have to spend a lot of time in the refining fires before he links up with Bishop Akinola in heaven. Respectfully, I must point out that such a sentiment is foreign to Holy Scripture. The Scriptures a quite clear that those who practice homosexuality will not inherit the kingdom of God. Either he will repent in this life and turn to Christ and trust in him alone for salvation, or he will spend eternity in hell. ![]() |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/1/30 4:18 Updated: 2007/1/30 4:18 |
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Another fabulous article by our dear DVirtue I must say.
VGR's presumption is a trait of narcissism. Maybe one could add that he assumes everyone will sooner or later jump on the bandwagon. How does the old saw go: Don't assume since you make an ass out of (U) you and....... Could this be VGR in the air? http://www.freedesktopwallpapers.net/funny/jackass.jpg |
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| desiderius | Posted: 2007/1/30 9:44 Updated: 2007/1/30 9:44 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/17 From: Darkest Africa Posts: 75 |
VGR is clearly a graduate of the Belinda Carlisle School of Theology... Heaven is a Place on Earth.
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| gregory | Posted: 2007/1/30 10:12 Updated: 2007/1/30 10:13 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
willpath, You are welcome. i like the link because it saves me a bunch of money... well and the info is great.
humbly, gregory http://www.ccel.org/ |
| ZachD | Posted: 2007/1/30 11:57 Updated: 2007/1/30 15:29 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1791 |
VGR in the air.
Thanks Tikhon. I lol'd. http://www.freedesktopwallpapers.net/funny/jackass.jpg .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ![]() |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/1/30 14:18 Updated: 2007/1/30 14:18 |
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You're welcome ZachD. The proverb of Buridan's ass and the shenanigans of VGR are becoming curiously similar. The *indecision* of both spell their ignominious demise.
In Xrist, Tikhon |
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| cjanning | Posted: 2007/1/30 14:42 Updated: 2007/1/30 14:42 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/12/19 From: Deep East Texas Posts: 279 |
If VGR is in the air, I'm putting on my gas mask...
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/1/30 15:11 Updated: 2007/1/30 15:11 |
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cjanning,
Methinks you're onto something, sir. *VGR* - a gas used for subduing *inferior* people - will cause violent coughing, vomiting, and respiratory distress. Tikhon |
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| Curious | Posted: 2007/1/30 15:38 Updated: 2007/1/30 15:38 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/2 From: Posts: 15 |
It seems that every article and every blog on this site is "we are right they are wrong", "we are going to heaven and they are going to hell". There is no doubt. Everything is absolute.
But when someone else says they are sure of something they are presumptuous, full of themselves, committing the sin of pride. Just doesn't seem right. |
| ZachD | Posted: 2007/1/30 16:37 Updated: 2007/1/30 16:40 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1791 |
In actuality, my dear 'curious', you are looking right!
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| sentinel | Posted: 2007/1/30 17:58 Updated: 2007/1/30 17:58 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/11 From: Posts: 263 |
Dear Curious,
The only thing that we can be sure of, the only thing that is absolute is God's Holy Word. It is not presumption to speak the truth but is the height of presumption to disregard what God has said and create a new "truth" in its place. VGR is horribly self decieved, and TEC is carrying the rope with which he will one day hang from if he does not repent and turn to Christ. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/1/31 11:53 Updated: 2007/1/31 11:53 |
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Curious wrote:
"It seems that every article and every blog on this site is "we are right they are wrong", "we are going to heaven and they are going to hell". There is no doubt. Everything is absolute." That's an interesting observation, Curious, but not accurate. First of all, almost any assertion you make about "every" article or thread on VOL is bound to be false because there are different authors who present different points of view—although the majority of authors on VOL have an orthodox Anglican point of view, there are actually quite a few articles by authors who are liberal (for example, see "TEC: Liberal Bishop Lashes Out At Archbishop of Canterbury," various statements by liberal TEc bishops/dioceses, etc). Second, almost any assertion you make about "every" person who posts on VOL is bound to be false because they have different points of view—although the majority are orthodox Anglicans, there are also TEc liberals who post on VOL as well as non-Anglicans (I am one of them, for example). And there are differences between orthodox Anglicans—some are AngloCatholics and others are Evangelical Anglicans. There are a number of threads on VOL where debates between the two groups disprove your portrayal of “every article” and thread being “absolute”—the debates are often passionate, with each side arguing that it is “right” (but not always—sometimes it's much softer than that and occasionally the same poster will present both sides of an issue), but they aren't saying that they're going to heaven and the others are going to hell. And there are differences between AngloCatholics in the UK and the US and between Evangelical Anglicans in the UK and the US, which also disprove your portrayal of “there is no doubt” and “everything is absolute." There are also differences between those who left TEc after the 1979 BAS was introduced (the “continuers”), those who left after the confirmation of VGR, and those who are still in TEc. Third, there is a polarization in Anglicanism about many of the topics discussed on VOL. The most polarized of these issues concerns the presenting issue of homosexual behavior, but there are also other presenting moral issues (eg, abortion, extra-marital heterosexual behavior, divorce, etc) that are polarized. The polarization about these moral issues is based on a polarization about doctrinal and theological issues, the most significant of which is differing views of Scripture. Traditional Anglican theology holds that Scripture is inspired and, thus, inerrant, authoritative, and descriptive of an unchanging Christian Faith, which informs the interpretation of Scripture and society on matters of faith and morals. In contrast, liberal Anglican theology views Scripture as inspired, but the Christian Faith as continuing to evolve (“revised”) along with society through inspiration (“God is doing a new thing”) and, thus, society as informing the Christian Faith on matters of faith and morals and the interpretation of Scripture. When interpreted according to the plain sense of Scripture and the unchanging Faith utilized by orthodox Anglicans, Scripture condemns tolerance of behaviors such as homosex and liberal Anglican revisionism as heretical and, when interpreted according to the social values and evolving faith utilized by liberal Anglicans, Scripture condemns the orthodox Anglicans' condemnation as Pharasaic—“legalistic,” “proud,” and “self-righteous”—and, thus, orthodox Anglicans are guilty of the liberal Anglican sins of being “noninclusive” and “intolerant.” The orthodox Anglicans respond by pointing out that the liberal Anglicans are hypocrites, since they espouse tolerance but are intolerant of those who disagree with them. And so it goes on. There is also polarization because many of the liberals accuse the orthodox who condemn behaviors like homosex as hating those who engage in that behavior and denying God's love for them and many orthodox resent the liberals' systematic infiltration of TEc's organizations (eg, committees) and institutions (eg, seminaries) and their use of them to “take over” TEc. This polarization is the result of 35-40 years of dialog, which started out with the kind of discussion you seem to be looking for, but has become post-mature—talked about with no resolution for so long that the positions are well-defined and the rhetoric is strident. Curious wrote: "But when someone else says they are sure of something they are presumptuous, full of themselves, committing the sin of pride." This is actually an accurate description of most of TEc's bishops and social activists. You'll find out about this if you ever disagree with them or challenge them—some of them are real despots who can be incredibly nasty and vindictive. Curious wrote: "Just doesn't seem right." It sounds like you believe the truth about all issues is relative—that they're just a matter of opinion. That's true about a lot of things in life (eg, it would be absurd to argue that it is right to drink a Coke and wrong to drink a Pepsi), but not everything—some things are really absolutely true or not. For example, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever” (Heb 13:8) or He changes. He cannot be the same for some people and change for others—one groups is right and the other is wrong. Applying that to the current Anglican crisis, if homosex was a sin when the Scriptures were written, it is still a sin—Christianity is Faith in Jesus Christ, so if He doesn't change, the Faith doesn't change and what Christianity condemned in the beginning is still condemned—and, just as Jesus cannot be the same for some people and not for others, homosex cannot be a sin for some people and not for others. So, with both that and the above in mind, you need to look at the merits of the arguments presented instead of whether or not the poster argues absolute or relative truth—because some things are absolutely true. Blessings, wopriest+ |
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| stwulfstan | Posted: 2007/1/31 17:15 Updated: 2007/1/31 17:18 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/11/28 From: USA Posts: 8 |
Quote:
Mrs. Schori and her unleashed legal Doberman David Booth Beers whose job it is to keep bishops from losing their nerve and leaving the TEC, and making sure that their churches stay in line What?! Mother Jeff is mean? |
| xenophore | Posted: 2007/2/1 1:58 Updated: 2007/2/1 1:58 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/7/25 From: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 183 |
Quote:
The more I hear and read about so-called "Bishop" Robinson, the more disgusted I get....not with just him, but ALL of the revisionist heretics in TEC! Every single one of them! Cennydd, if this were actually true, you wouldn't still be in TEC right alongside them at the communion rail. Seeing as your bishop won't take any real measures to lead his flock to safety, what's it going to take for you to realize you need to start looking elsewhere for greener pastures? |
| Curious | Posted: 2007/2/1 2:08 Updated: 2007/2/1 2:08 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/2 From: Posts: 15 |
Wopriest+,
Thank you and others for their responses. I apologize for the "all's" in my statement. I often say that you can never be right if you say "all (blank) are (blank)" - and then I do it myself. Sorry. You said "Anglican theology holds that Scripture is inspired and, thus, inerrant, authoritative, and descriptive of an unchanging Christian Faith, which informs the interpretation of Scripture and society on matters of faith and morals. In contrast, liberal Anglican theology views Scripture as inspired, but the Christian Faith as continuing to evolve (“revised”) along with society through inspiration (“God is doing a new thing”) and, thus, society as informing the Christian Faith on matters of faith and morals and the interpretation of Scripture." This is the crux of the matter for me and the point that I spend a lot of time in thought and prayer about. I can't bring myself to believe the Bible is inerrent. I believe it contains everything needed for salvation, I believe in the nicene creed, I believe in "costly grace". The thought of gay sex is repugnent (forgive any spelling errors) to me, but I don't know if it is a sin. I know I may spend eterity wailing nnd nashing my teeth, but this is what I believe. I belive in much that the Orthodox speak about, but differ on many of the major hot topics. I believe the Liberals are wrong when the exclude or punish or bad mouth the Orthodox. I would receive Communion from and next to the most Ortodox of priests, I don't care if my donations go into his pocket. I would also receive Communions from Bishop Robinson. I wish the ABC would say "to be an Anglican, you must believe (blank) and let the chips fall where they will. I feel like a man without a country. I joined the Episcopal Church about 20 years ago because it wasn't "too Catholic" - a picture of Bishop Harris helped. Now it seems I may have joined the wrong church. Thanks again for your responses. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/2/1 10:08 Updated: 2007/2/1 10:08 |
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Curious wrote:
"This is the crux of the matter for me and the point that I spend a lot of time in thought and prayer about. I can't bring myself to believe the Bible is inerrent." This is indeed "the crux of the matter" not just for you, but in the dispute between the orthodox Anglicans and the liberals and between the Church and revisionists in general. I don't know any way to "prove" that Scripture is inerrant but, it may be easier if you approach the “inerrancy of Scripture” by exploring the basis of that belief. Belief in the “inerrancy of Scripture” is actually belief that the Scriptures inerrantly describe the Faith when interpreted as the Church interprets them. That is based on belief in (a) the authority of the Church to inerrantly interpret Scripture and (b) the inerrancy of Scripture. Belief in the authority of the Church to inerrantly interpret Scripture is based on its canonization of them (and its general authority bestowed by Jesus—see Mt 16:18-10). Belief in the inerrancy of Scripture is also based on its canonization of them, which was based on the Church's conciliar actions, which were based on a consensus of the Church. Belief that the consensus of the Church was inerrant in canonizing the Scriptures is based on belief in the inerrancy of the consensus' Faith, which is based on belief that the consensus inerrantly preserved the Faith, which is based on belief in (a) the demonstrated ability of a consensus of the Church to inerrantly transmit the Faith from generation to generation orally and in writing over a period of approximately 350 years (as well as Jesus' promise that “the gates of Hades shall not prevail against [the Church]”—Mt 16:18) and (b) the inerrancy of the Faith preserved by the consensus of the Church, which is based on belief in the inerrancy of the Faith taught by the Apostles. Belief in the inerrancy of the Faith taught by the Apostles is based on belief that the Faith was inerrantly transmitted to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit, which is based on belief that Christ (a) intended for the Faith to be inerrantly transmitted to the Apostles and (b) sent the Holy Spirit to inerrantly transmit the Faith to the Apostles. Belief that Christ intended for the Faith to be inerrantly transmitted to the Apostles is based on belief that He intended to give the Church an inerrant Faith, which is based on belief that He came for our Salvation, which requires an inerrant Faith, since Salvation is a state of perfection, which is required to be in the Presence of God, Who is Perfect. Belief that Christ sent the Holy Spirit to inerrantly transmit the Faith to the Apostles (that He promised to send the Holy Spirit for that purpose and fulfilled His promise—see Acts 1:8; 2:2-4, 33) is based on belief that Christ was able to send the Holy Spirit for that purpose. Belief that Christ came for our Salvation and that He was able to send the Holy Spirit to the Apostles are both based on faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God—the confession of faith upon which He built the Church (Mt 16:16)—since He is able to save us and bring us before the First Person of the Trinity as well as sending the Third Person of the Trinity to us because He is the Second Person of the Trinity. So, belief in the “inerrancy of Scripture”—that the Scriptures inerrantly describe the Faith when interpreted as the Church interprets them—is based on faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God—the confession of faith upon which He built the Church. Therefore, faith in Christ is incompatible with denying the “inerrancy of Scripture.” I pray that you find this explanation helpful. Blessings, wopriest+ |
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| gregory | Posted: 2007/2/1 10:16 Updated: 2007/2/1 10:21 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
Curious, Thank you for posting.. Your words reveal how deeply you have been affected by the modernism of the Episcopal cult. (i know 'cause i've been where you are)
Please consider that TEc's abandoning the moral guide posts of the Bible is where the confusion is rooted. It is that lack of absolutes of good and bad that bring you to where you are... the only way you could receive Holy Communion from both faithful and/or unfaithful Priests. Click here for alittle more on what we need to see humbly, gregory |
| Curious | Posted: 2007/2/1 14:04 Updated: 2007/2/1 14:04 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/2 From: Posts: 15 |
Wopriest+/Gregory,
Thanks - you have given me much to think about. In addition to reading the bible more diligently I need to look at the Canonization of the Bible. I believe it was Canonized by the Catholic church and I believe the Catholic Bible is different from the King James. Can they be different and both inerrent? At the end of the day this is not a thing to be proved or understood. I will need the Holy Spirit to remove any scales from my eyes and reveal his truth. I try to live my life so if I die today I can face God and say I tried my best to please him. If I fail I will have an eternity of pain to figure out what I did wrong. I also don't want to tell God I was against this person being a Priest because she was a woman and that person because he had gay sex and have God say "How could you think that would matter to me?" It will take me time to digest all of this and I don't think I will be posting again any time soon (but I will continue to visit the site). Thanks again for your replys. You are in my prayers. |
| badcat | Posted: 2007/2/1 17:03 Updated: 2007/2/1 17:03 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/9/27 From: olympic peninsula Posts: 175 |
curiouser- How refreshing to meet a genuinely open mind that is not a sieve! May God richly grant your implied prayer to reveal His truth- Indeed Himself- to you. Amen. To wopriest and gregory- thanks for your gentle witness that speaks volumes. We traditional christians are so often accused of venomousness, even in those cases where it's uncalled for!
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/2/1 18:51 Updated: 2007/2/1 18:51 |
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Dear Curious
I echo the comments of Badcat in wishing you Godspeed in your journey to discovering the truth and a hearty thanks to Wopriest and Gregory for assisting you. Indeed you appear to be a very humble person in your writing. In all you do, pray first to ask the Holy Spirit to guide you towards an understanding of the truth and always towards his grace. If I may be so bold I could explain (briefly) a bit about the Bibles. Catholics and Orthodox have 46 books of the OT (Septuagint) and 27 books of the NT for a total of 73 books. Most Protestant Bibles have 39 books of the OT (Hebrew Bible) and 27 books of the NT for a total of 66 books. Martin Luther during the reformation removed 7 books sometimes called Deutro-Canonical books and they were originally placed at the back of the Protestant Bibles under the section called Apocrypha. Protestants also follow the Hebrew Bible. To find out why this was done you will have to do some further reading, but I can refer you to a good web site which explains some of the differences (http://www.cathtruth.com/catholicbible/cathprot.htm ). Wopriest and Gregory can also assist you as well. Peace and Blessings, BHTech |
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| ptay12 | Posted: 2007/2/1 18:58 Updated: 2007/2/1 18:58 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/3 From: Posts: 434 |
Curious,
The original bible was in Greek. It was translated into other languages. Translators may fail. The word of God never fails. Humbly Paul |
| lionheart | Posted: 2007/2/2 23:57 Updated: 2007/2/2 23:57 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/19 From: Posts: 354 |
Curious wrote:
"I believe it was Canonized by the Catholic church and I believe the Catholic Bible is different from the King James. Can they be different and both inerrent?" At the time when the authoritative canon of the New Testament was established in the 4th century, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church were united. As ptay12 points out above, the New Testament, at least the earliest manuscripts we have, was written in Greek. Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants do not disagree on the original Greek text of the New Testament. It's just that the translations differ - - i.e., what different translators think that the Greek means. I'll spare you too much detail about the Old Testament. Suffice it to say that the main difference has to do with the books accepted by the Catholics and Orthodox on the one hand, and Protestants on the other. But the inerrancy of the books we all agree on is not in doubt. There is some divergence of opinion as to which texts of the Old Testament are more reliable: the Septuagint (Greek), the Masoretic (Hebrew) or the Vulgate (Latin). However, as a practical matter, the differences don't amount to much and we all agree that whatever the original text was is inerrant. I don't think that such differences need to be a stumbling block. As to the comment about Bp. Harris and taking communion from Gene Robinson, I assume that you have been misled to a considerable extent as to what actually constitutes Christianity. To those of us who are traditionalists, the ordination of women to holy orders is not possible, or at least it would have to be authorized by an ecumenical council to be valid. As to Gene Robinson, we view his consecration as a bishop as a sacrilege in that he practices a behavior notoriously (out in front of God and everybody and on a continuous basis) that is condemned unequivocally as terribly sinful by scripture. You may read harsh comments here on VOL about him. This is mostly due to his role in promoting his disorder as normal and acceptable, if not praiseworthy. For us this glorifies an awful evil that he perpetrates with other sick individuals. It causes an entity calling itself a "church" to reject the moral teaching of Christianity. It misleads the public and impressionable souls into acceptance or embrace of an abomination. Your confusion is understandible and I wish you the best of luck and grace in finding your way. lh |
| xecusa | Posted: 2007/2/4 0:20 Updated: 2007/2/4 0:20 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/3/6 From: Central OK Posts: 106 |
And to the point of Lionheart...with regard to taking communion from Bp Robinson or Bp Schori...as well, if you take communion within ECUSA, you in essence take communion from Bp. Robinson and Schori, as the ECUSA sanctioned their Holy Orders, Robinson's relationship with his male lover, and both of their consecrations as Bishops. To be in Communion with ECUSA and most likely The CofE, and perhaps a large portion of Anglican Communion, you are also in union with the same.
Xecusa |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2007/2/5 20:59 Updated: 2007/2/5 20:59 |
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Fortunately the teaching of the Church has (at least 25 yrs ago when I became an Episcopalian) that the Holy Mysteries and Benefits of the Eucharist are not dependent in any way on the worth of the minister(s) or the recipient(s) (Thank God for THAT), but upon the faith and attitude of the recipient.
The example used was one of a priest who is living a sinful lifestyle, celebrates Communion (a further sacrilege as I recall it stated); while he eats and drinks damnation unto himself, those who receive Communion are not tainted by the Celebrant's unworthiness and, provided they are seeking God's Grace and Forgiveness (and are forgiving their own adversaries), receive the Benefits therefrom. Of course, clergy who know of someone living a notoriously sinful lifestyle and are unrepentant about it are supposed, under certain circumstances, to refuse the Body and Blood of Christ to them. I have no problems with those who, out of conscious, can not or will not receive communion from certain revisionists (who themselves often do not believe in Christ or His Sacrament), I also have no problems with those who gather with other orthodox or faithful Christians (even if there are a few "revisionists" among them) to partake of the Sacrament. I worship in an "orthodox" parish (for now) and do not consider myself in union with VGR, the PB, or anyone else who is flagrantly opposed to the historic teachings of God's Church and/or the Word of God (the Bible). In fact, their return to the Faith is a predominant factor in most of my daily prayers. And I've other reasons for sticking around in TEC which I've explained in these posts. For now. I am saddened that there are some, perhaps many, who, when taking communion when I do, according to the Bible, are "eating and drinking damnation unto themselves". It is a very sad thing. Some Christians I suppose will simply not refuse the Body and Blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and will endeavor to faithfully receive His Holy Sacrament. I pray that number will increase. I pray that the Lord God, in his Power and Mercy and Might and Love, will help those of us who are faithful remain faithful, and win over to Him at least some of those who are not. A few have, after all, returned to us, may God be praised! |
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| gregory | Posted: 2007/2/5 23:40 Updated: 2007/2/5 23:43 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
"A few have, after all, returned to us, may God be praised!"
Marcellus, My prayers are that you will notice when the Holy Eucharist is not being done correctly or even with the words that are True... or say when the "priest who is living a sinful lifestyle" administers Holy Eucharist that is done with an alternate prayer book (1979). Most Episcopalians do not understand how much they have been affected by the revisions in the last 30 years. Especially if they came to the Faith during the last thirty years. In that case they just do not know how much is missing or how far from what God has to offer they are. i remember learning to be careful that when i think i was firmly standing that i was facing a great fall... you know the chapter and verse? humbly, gregory |
| patience | Posted: 2007/2/11 17:41 Updated: 2007/2/11 17:41 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/3 From: Posts: 313 |
I have come to this thread a week after the latest posting so may be late on this one. While I usually find much to agree with on VOL, and consider myself both orthodox in belief and conservative by nature, there are some real problems with some of the postings here.
We should not be questioning VGR's salvation. That is between him and God. If we take him at his word that he believe in Jesus then the matter is settled. Who are we do judge his suitability or otherwise for salvation when each of us are sinners. The postings here which question his salvation are way off the mark. Notwithstanding this, we may question his suitability for Church office. The often overlooked New Testament book Titus is a good guide to the personal character of Church leaders, and given VGR's behaviour and narcissistic outlook on life, there are many concerns about this fellow. Finally, for those who say to be in communion with the ECUSA is sinful - nonsense. I'm sticking around to see if we can win some hearts for Christ! |
| lionheart | Posted: 2007/2/13 19:28 Updated: 2007/2/13 19:28 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/19 From: Posts: 354 |
Marcellus wrote,
"Fortunately the teaching of the Church has (at least 25 yrs ago when I became an Episcopalian) that the Holy Mysteries and Benefits of the Eucharist are not dependent in any way on the worth of the minister(s) or the recipient(s) (Thank God for THAT), but upon the faith and attitude of the recipient." Yes, if a priest harbors evil in his heart, if he has faulty intention in his consecration, if he does some evil act and is in a state of sin, etc. it does not affect the validity of a sacrament. But what if he, through his public actions and statements of faith, renounces the faith? What if he becomes, effectively or openly, apostate? And what of those who remain in communion with apostates? patience, Perhaps your motivation is noble. But if you had eyes to see you would see that TEC is beyond salvation. Individuals might be saved, but the institution is a walking corpse. How can you act as a lifeboat while still being on the sinking ship? Communion with those in communion with VGR and the PB and the like is a sin. Eucharistic fellowship is like marriage. Each time you receive the eucharist in communion with them you are proclaiming that you all share a common faith. I pray for your soul that you are lying when you do so, because their faith is not Christianity. lh |
| gregory | Posted: 2007/2/14 16:28 Updated: 2007/2/14 16:28 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
patience, that is one scarey post you made...
i been there and awoke to the reality of the situation then i was really afraid as In Fear of God... lp states it well...That's when i stated finding like minded faithful believers and helped move our parish under Kenya... seems anywhere but with TEc is better... It is a life or death decision. Choose Life! prayerfully, gregory |








The fact that Robinson attended the Sundance Film Festival says about all that needs to be said about his spirituality. The Sundance Film Festival is the sewer of Hollywood. A pit of excrement stirred by the souls of Satan’s servants. One of the movies praised as uplifting by the Los Angeles Times film critic had to do with sexual relations with a horse – bestiality. Will this be Robinson’s next effort? 































