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As Eye See It : If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? - by Paul Marshall
Posted by David Virtue on 2007/1/15 13:20:00 (2390 reads)

If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas?
A MOTION FROM THE RUSTBELT AS OUR MEETING APPROACHES
Being sure the obvious is said

By Bishop Paul Marshall
1/14/2007

I have always been captivated by the realism about human interaction found in the seven undoubtedly Pauline Epistles, our earliest testimony to Christianity: for Paul, the living out of the gospel is always a matter of imperfect personalities and events, redeemed and being redeemed, giving and embracing comment and correction on the way. Spirits are to be tested, and behavior in the Body addressed.

Compare Paul's own report of his conflict with Peter over the latter's suspension of eating with Gentiles, and his report of what went on at the Jerusalem summit with Luke's much smoother and curial account of relations at a "council," and we begin to see more clearly the apostle's consistency behavior and his point of view about leadership. For good or ill, most people acknowledge that Paul led the formation of the Christianity we know.

It is wise to consider on the meta level his operational principles of directness in truth-telling. Let us also consider his directness in truth-acting: circumcision decisions on Timothy and Titus are radically different because how those decisions related to Gospel truth at certain places in certain times.

With St. Paul, we must dare to look at and respond to the vessels and the circumstances, all of which struggle to bear the Gospel. Being more modestly gifted than my apostolic namesake, I will limit my theological observations while trying not to avoid naming the issue and person that concerns me in the Church as much as President George Bush does in the orbis terrarum, and I assure you that do I write to him often.

The most un-biblical part of traditional Anglicanism is its politeness, its charm, its unwillingness to confront and hold accountable those who have sought and accepted positions of supreme leadership. We in the Episcopal Church often brag about our Church's failure to address slavery as though that were a virtue and not a disgrace. The Church held together while humans died in chains and even bishops (both north and south in the beginning) traded in human flesh. We now have put the British emancipator William Wilberforce in our calendar but do not make his commemoration one of fasting and lament for our heritage of cowardice in the name of togetherness. The words and deeds of Paul and even more certainly of our utterly tactless Lord Jesus suggest that charm is less important than candor or provocative questioning, that real love in times of disagreement is often something quite uncomfortable. It seems no accident that historically we are enthralled by John, whom we cannot understand, rather than Paul, whom we can but would prefer not to.

That said, my subject, with both regret and trembling, is the Archbishop of Canterbury, but only in the very limited sense of his functioning toward our house and to some extent our Church. That is a tiny and limited subject and I do not intend it for a discussion of the content of the myriad ministries in which he is engaged. As one too old to have anything to gain or lose, I will try to say what may be obvious to others but risky for them to voice. I hasten to add that this is not a matter of condemnation: he needs no witness from me to his reputation as a pious and good man, great in so many ways, and someone whom I overall admire as writer, teacher, and moral voice in the UK. I believe with all my heart that his intentions are at least a good as any of ours. I write of a perceived chain of mistakes in policy and deed, mistakes, not evil. I have made perhaps more than my share of system mistakes, so I know one when I see one.

It will, however, not do to say, as one persistent soul on HOBD frequently does, that because Rowan is so smart and knows things we do not, he must be right in his approach to us. I stopped believing that about leaders during Vietnam, which this is not, of course.

A Gestalt bouquet: I am sadly impressed that my friend and neighbor Bob Duncan, peace be to him, and a few of his supporters, have had more time with Rowan Williams than has our entire House, or even our Church gathered in Convention. The long-distance intervention in our process during the last moments of the Columbus convention has made us a laughing-stock. (Katharine wonderfully rolled with that without losing her integrity, a marvelous first inning.) The public words of welcome he gave to our new primate would have made a Laodicean proud for their restrained enthusiasm. The widely-publicized Lambeth Palace photograph of Rowan, Frank, and Katharine all standing as far away from each other as the camera lens would allow has not been without its effect on many among us. A dismal icon of formal communion without a hint of affection or connection has been sent to the entire inhabited world.

The perceived distancing did not begin with Gene Robinson. My neuralgia on the question of the ABC's witness and function has been growing since his disastrously insensitive comments on 9/11 -made in New York!- which were alone nearly communion-breaking for lay people in grief, and which have never been effectually mended. People in my own diocese who lost loved ones in that attack have never recovered from the insensitive academic speculation of their galactic leader asking those covered in blood, ashes, and strewn body parts to reflect on the bombers and "why they hate" the US. It is an important question, but one painfully misplaced in time and space. It would have been pastorally wise, if the relationship in Christ were really valued, for Lambeth to work endlessly to overcome that perfectly valid but tragically inept obiter dictum, but no. Curates know that moments of grief are to be ministered to for what they are and save the dazzle for much later in the process.

This situation of alienation was regrettably worsened by his remarkable distancing of himself from a church that has followed his own carefully thought-through teachings on sexuality, teaching that he only last year suddenly dismissed as a sin of his academic youth. The appointment to the Windsor drafters of North American representatives wonderfully devout but historically disinclined to advocate vigorously for the position of their church was not his sole responsibility, but the buck sure stops there. Like many of you, I have submitted to all, not some, of the demands of the Windsor report as a reluctant gesture of good will to the Communion and sacrifice of principle for the sake of those who may be weaker brethren. Cannot that be reciprocated? And so on and so on.

By Rowan's subsequent actions and inactions the situation has for me now reached a proportion manageable only by the combination of prayer and surrender to the belief that God will work this out through the usual means - crucifixion and resurrection. But before we get ready for life alone, we deserve to hear from him, in the room with us, an explanation of his distance and intentions. We are all busy, and we show up where we believe it is important to go. Let's hope we become important. [An oddly parallel situation on the other side: just recently the Bishop of Durham has roundly attacked evangelical bishops in the UK for acting on doctrinal points of view he has abundantly fueled for years. If we dare to teach, we must accept the possibility that we will be heard and believed by those for whom the life of the church is more concrete and less speculative than academics ever imagine.]

The situation of the shunning of North American bishops would be painful under any circumstances. The pain is more intense here because it comes from the withdrawal of a human who was friend, teacher, and colleague to many in this church - with no notice that either his opinions or commitments were in flux. The archbishop has appeared to my knowledge only once in the US since 2003, and that was the briefest of visits to raise money for a function of the Communion. He cancelled a date for a joint meeting with Canadian and US bishops with no real excuse, and has made no effort to reschedule what could have been a fellowship-redeeming encounter. Our relationship to the one who is expected to be first in a world-wide college of bishops is distant, confused, and multiply-triangulated. We are ceaselessly told by those who would destroy our church that the ABC endorses this or that crudely divisive action or position. Questions to Lambeth on these occasions are sometimes met with silence and sometimes with stunning equivocation. This distance, confusion, and triangulation ought not to be. One of the basics of episcopal - or parish - pastoral care is that one gets with and stays as close as possible to those who may be seen to be problematic. The Pope went to Turkey. Can the Archbishop of Canterbury not come to meet us just once at a regular or special meeting in any city he would care to name?

A very highly-placed COE figure told me personally last September that he thinks Rowan has been "badly advised" in what this person admitted was callous treatment of the US and Canadian churches. I rejoice in the hint that Rowan may wish have an authentic connection with us, but I cannot accept that report of bad advice as sufficient mitigation: as a bishop I alone am responsible for my actions. I connect with my churches not with my words as much as by being among them. Leaders are leaders because they show up when it is not pleasant to do so.

All of this said, it seems necessary to report my perception that the nadir in Rowan's overall relationship to the US, Canada and perhaps South Africa has been the appointment of a virtual lynch mob to draft the Covenant that will by all reports attempt turn a fellowship into a curial bureaucracy in which the worst elements of the great and oppressive Colonizer and of the Resentful Colonized will as meet as a scissors to the denigration of significant number of God's people who were almost equal in Christ for one brief shining moment. Are North America, South Africa and many other parts of the Communion (not to mention "much cattle") of such little value in the grand scheme? Does anyone think that the COE itself will not split if a continent and a half are among those permitted to be set adrift?

So we must always talk about him, not to or with him. Like so many of you, I have been disheartened by the succession of "second gentlemen" from the COE who have addressed our House in Rowan's stead while over-insisting that that they were not at all doing so. No bishop of the left, right, or center, was taken in, and our colleague from Missouri pointed this out on one occasion with deft words that the Sage of Hannibal, MO, himself would envy. Even our steadfastly bucolic local papers here in rustic Pennsylvania would not be deceived by such over-wrought protestations of mere coincidence or fortuitous invitation. By these speakers, one of whom just happened to have a specific list of a dozen or so things we had to do, all but the most anxious of us have been inevitably alienated. How can it help bonds of affection for Communion leadership to so overtly and maladroitly play us for chumps? There is a kind of contempt for our intellect there whose sting almost matches the pain of the overall strategy of isolation.

Having now had three successive messages delivered to us by what some UK friends describe as "fully accredited members of the British Olympic Patronizing Team," I take this (perhaps not entirely welcome to her) opportunity to thank Katharine for her outstanding integrity and clarity of focus since her election, and accordingly to urge her that no foreign bishop whatsoever be given the privilege of addressing the House of Bishops of this Church until the ABC can personally enter this country and speak to the House himself and deign to entertain the level of frank questioning that his counterpart the Prime Minister might have to endure among those he leads and serves. We all do get cable news and know what the wonderful British tradition of questioning in the house can helpfully add to common life.

As I began, I end. My text is Paul's reminder to Peter that he USED to eat with Gentiles until he found it unhelpful to his plan for the church. After decades of close fellowship, Rowan has steadfastly chosen the comfortable path of being Peter when we need Paul, and unless he can make an overwhelming Gospel case for it, I cannot help but anticipate that he will be remembered as having chosen a path that was not courageous or well-defined and actually fostered schism. I cannot now imagine what it will take for him in the long run to re-create good relations with the US and Canadian houses, but hope that the effort will be made should we somehow be allowed to remain in communion.

For now, I call on our own amazingly composed and delightful Leader to require heightened integrity on ABC's part and to remind him that without _pares_ there is no _primus_ _inter_ which he may by any significant sense claim to preside.

I do not, cannot, ask the ABC to agree with us: we are a body of bishops who hold many views and we could be wrong about any number of our positions and actions. I do not ask that he endorse the actions of this Church, even if they can claim that they were to some extent his idea. He doesn't have to receive communion. He doesn't have to eat or hang out with us. He certainly ought to meet us face to face and accept accountability for his breath-taking words and actions us-wards. He needs above all to square what he has said and done in terms of congruence with what we can know of the ministry of the fleshly Messiah.

No more messengers; no more cell phone calls to defeat the integrity of this Church's polity. If Rowan really believes what the Lambeth press office says he believes about us, it is past time for him to say it to our faces, and have the goodness to listen to the response of those who have to live with the results of his choices. This would be, I believe, fair play and look very more like the New Testament.

Reluctantly yours,

Paul Marshall
Bishop of Bethlehem

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Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/1/15 17:01  Updated: 2007/1/15 17:07
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Let Mountain Joe tell you about his experience with ?Marshall, a one-time "orthodox" minister.

Several years ago, one of his priests ministered to my mother who was dying of cancer at a hospital in his diocese. The FiF/NA minister, then rector of St Stephen's Whitehall, volunteered to travel some distance to see mom. I note the local ECUSA parish priest came too, but that is not germane to this larger story.

The summer after my mother passed away, Marshall began to harass this Godly priest. I emailed him to protest the persecution of this obviously holy priest, as was widely reported in Forward Now! and on VOL.

Would you believe Marshall had his secretary contact me, to summon me to his cathedral and explain myself to him?

It took a few months of wrangling, but I was determined to face him and tell him what I thought of his attitude toward the minister who was so kind to mom.

On the very day I was to see him, his secretary called me on my cell phone, saying, "there's no point in seeing Bishop Marshall since [the minister] has resigned St Stephens and is moving out of the diocese."

I demanded the appointment be kept just the same.

So I arrived at his office, near to St Luke's where mom took her chemotherapy... Marshall kept me cooling my heels for fifteen minutes or so, then came out of his office to meet me in the ante-room.

While I offered my hand and thanked him for taking time to meet with me, HE STARTED SCREAMING AT ME, "I'M A BISHOP AND HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF PERSECUTING [minister]???"

To say I was taken aback was something of an understatement. However, seeing as I deal with the public all the time, with a lot of loon-left hotheads like him, I engaged him and proceeded to demand that he not speak to me in such a tone. Ha! His face was red and puffed up, perhaps like jmichel's is most of the time. He was starting to gather spittle at the corners of his lips.

After a while, he calmed down and we spoke for about an hour and a half. He even signed his latest book for me and gave me one of his videos.

Through the course of the conversation, I discovered that Marshall is a true Baby Boomer Summer of Love believer. I told him he was flat-out wrong in his acceptance of active homosexuality, and he admitted he might very well be wrong about it... I flat-out told him as a bishop and a community leader, it was his responsibility to set the example of high standards -- and not to pander which is the easy way out.

I was struck by how belligerent he was on the matter of [FiF/NA minister] and how hateful he was toward me. I had said nothing at that point other than demand to set the record straight about the priest.

Were I anyone other than a 6'1", 250#, and (at that time) superbly physically trained in preparation for joining the Service, he might very well have bowled me over physically! Had I not had the strength of character that comes from years of dealing with Leftist bullies, I might have been bowled over spiritually.

But neither happened. Instead, I witnessed to him. For at least a little while, I held him accountable for his actions and teachings.

He even invited me to visit him again, "next time [I was] in town."

Sad. But this man is completely in thrall to his teenaged years in the 1960s, as he himself admits in his letter. There was more we discussed, which is beyond the scope of this report, some of which might be personal, but I hope this provides one experienced account of a "Revisionist" bishop and his own hatred, anger and blindness to the truth, all owing to the brainwashing he underwent as a boy and young adult growing up in the 1960s.

Keep this in mind the next time you want to sing Kumbaya and have loathsome feelings of contempt for those who reject the insanities of the Age of Aquarius BECAUSE WE GREW UP IN YOUR HATEFUL, HYPOCRITICAL SHADOW. We know you better than you yourselves know you. Your anger and resentment speak more to your own sense of self-betrayal than they do about "conservatives" or "haters" or "Religious Right" or any of the other wicked names you delight in calling.

Joe of the Mountain
Eyewitness who has remained silent until now.
Curate
Posted: 2007/1/15 17:03  Updated: 2007/1/15 17:03
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/4/8
From: England
Posts: 190
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
This is a very eloquent, witty, and outrageous attack from one of those who treated the rest of the world with the same disdain that he is now accusing the ABC of!

I wonder if he is even aware of his hypocrisy?
Anonymous
Posted: 2007/1/15 17:05  Updated: 2007/1/15 17:06
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
+Paul Marshall wrote:
"The most un-biblical part of traditional Anglicanism is its politeness, its charm, its unwillingness to confront and hold accountable those who have sought and accepted positions of supreme leadership."

There it is, the unvarnished truth. This is what must change in Anglican culture if there is to be a future for Anglicanism. Absent this, any "reformed" Church will eventually come to the same sorry end.

Blessings,

wopriest+
Gander
Posted: 2007/1/15 21:38  Updated: 2007/1/15 21:38
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/5/31
From: Less than 1 Earth diameter away
Posts: 452
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Joe:

Thanks for relating that. I'd only hope that he is on his way towards repentance. And I also note that your view of the "Age of Aquarious" crowd is precisely correct. I saw the insanity and lived among them. It is insanity to preach "Peace, peace!" when millions of innocent people are dieing because we've not the guts to stop it - in addition to adding to our own security at the same time.

"Insanities". Somehow there needs to be stronger word.

God bless every memory of your mother.

Don
Truthseekr
Posted: 2007/1/15 21:39  Updated: 2007/1/15 21:39
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/9/14
From: terra firma ................ ( just a pilgrim passing thru )
Posts: 784
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Quote:
By Bishop Paul Marshall
1/14/2007 (exact quote from bishop words above reference)

"Spirits are to be tested, and behavior in the Body addressed."


bishop,
If you occasionally read, and believed, your Bible,

- then you would know how to test the "spirits"...

- then you would know how to address behaviors in the Body...

- then you would know how your own words condem yourself...
Wordsworth
Posted: 2007/1/15 23:24  Updated: 2007/1/15 23:24
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2004/2/14
From: Pensacola,Florida
Posts: 71
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Joe of the Mountain; You have my respect and admiration for your courage and perseverance, and your faith. God Bless You !
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/1/16 0:47  Updated: 2007/1/16 0:47
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Don, my mother was a true saint. I never heard her utter an unkind word -- although she always spoke the truth without fear or concern of persons.

Such as Marshall are beyond salvage without Divine intervention. They are proud. They are cock-sure of their own righteousness. I note that today is Martin Luther King Jr day and the talking heads spoke of him more reverently thant they do his purported boss -- Jesus himself.

How many babies were made into blood sacrifices, sacrifices of the "first born" by Leftist Liberalism? How much blood is on the hands of TEC and ?Marshall for not stopping it?

How many lives have been cut short because of homosexuality and its death sentence infections? How much of that blood is on the hands of TEC and ?Marshall for not stopping it?

How many black people have died at the hands of their own kind because the condescention of White Guilt removed from them all moral constraints, leaving the animals among them to prey on the rest at will? How much blood is on the hands of TEC and ?Marshall for not stopping it?

How many Americans have become destitute, penniless and broken because of illegal aliens who trespass and break-in to our sovereign country to steal money, goods and jobs from the most vulnerable of our fellow citizens - or undercut the wages they need to feed their families? How many Americans have died without the money to survive? How much of that blood is on the hands of TEC and ?Marshall?

The 1960s have been morethan a disaster - they have perhaps succeeded in cutting us off from our own past, severing us from our rightful heritage for the benefit of those that did not earn it nor who wish to emulate our ways.

I do not know if the West can survive the Sixties but if it is to survive, we ourselves must survive. If not, Who will take care of the billions who are now dependent on us?
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/1/16 0:48  Updated: 2007/1/16 0:48
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Thank you Wordsworth. It is not easy to do such things, but I try to find the courage every day to do it again and again. Someone must!
Fawkes
Posted: 2007/1/16 0:50  Updated: 2007/1/16 0:50
Just popping in
Joined: 2007/1/16
From:
Posts: 1
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Joe of the Mountain

You pegged Paul's modus operandi perfectly. I like to think of it as the 'Hannibal Lecter' effect. Let's keep him right out front where you can see him. And, Clarice, don't let him inside your head.
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/1/16 1:02  Updated: 2007/1/16 1:02
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Great allusion! Reminds me of a spectacle we saw on the way home from seeing it in the theaters:

What appeared to be a fire on the horizon was a dramatic auroroa borealis of many colors, with motion and sweeping moves that looked like draperies. In the midst of it all, a gigantic fireball meteor exploded!

What a memory - thanks for reminding me!
mathman
Posted: 2007/1/16 9:55  Updated: 2007/1/16 9:55
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/5/26
From: Rockville, MD
Posts: 1040
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Thank you, Joe.
Marvelous first-person account.
Can we get off the Martin Luther King, Jr. theme?
Nobody bothers to actually read what Dr. King wrote, or listen to what he said. His entire life and ministry has now been forgotten. His dream of a society and culture which did not judge based on skin color has come to mean a society and culture which judges on skin color first.
His dream of character being preeminent has become a culture in which character does not matter.
Quote:
The words of the dead are modified in the guts of the living.
T. S. Eliot

And the replacing of desires, hopes, and dreams by their opposites is just so painful! As well as wrong.
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/1/16 22:02  Updated: 2007/1/16 22:02
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
I hear you mathman. By today's standards, King is almost a reactionary conservative!

What I find most disturbing about the Left is their inability to

(1) distinguish fine points of their predicates that would tend to limit their zealous impositions on us and

(2) they don't know when to stop. I call this the "Broken Vector Theory"... They start running to the Left and just keep on going. And going. And going, trying desperately to "change the world" even if it means ruining it.

In effective King's legacy, The Content of a Man's Character becomes his ability to violate the rights of another.

Heavy sigh...



Blessings,
Joe
lionheart
Posted: 2007/1/16 22:20  Updated: 2007/1/16 22:20
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/19
From:
Posts: 354
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Funny, I was skeptical of the article because of its title, then I read Marshall's comments about TEC and slavery and I knew I didn't like the man. I, of course, don't endorse slavery and find it nasty as do we all; however, the Bible simply does not speak against it and Paul accepted the practice and the New Testament assumes it as a norm, throughout. So, as to the Christian faith, I see nothing for TEC to apologize for, given the understanding of all during that period.

But this is standard liberal pablum. "Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa" and then the switcheroo - - "Oh, I was merely humbling up for the real attack, 'Tua maxima culpa!'"
lh
Ikerliker
Posted: 2007/1/16 23:01  Updated: 2007/1/16 23:01
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/1/16
From: PA
Posts: 2046
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
I have had dealings with +Paul as well. I was a member of St. Michael's Episcopal Church in Birdsboro, PA (dio Bethlehem) which +Paul closed. He does have a temper and actually threatened a member who dared to write to ++Frank for help. He backed his priestess who ruined the church and said the membership was a negative witness to the Gospel. The previous Rector (before the priestess), now Bishop of who cares, even turned his back on the congregation that supported him for Bishop.

The church was "mothballed" and several years later, after taking everything of value inside, the building was sold to I believe a Baptist congregation. The church celebrated it's 150th anniversary the year before it was closed and was the mother church of Birdsboro. The supposed circumstances leading to the closing were very irregular.

At first, I had hoped +Paul would be better than Chucky B in Dio PA, however, I quickly learned that while he may not be as revisionist, he is just as bad in other ways. Very impressed with his title and perceived power. He will use it any way he see's fit, because he can.

No loss when he retires. Maybe he should go to Turkey!!!
cuervoria
Posted: 2007/1/17 1:21  Updated: 2007/1/17 1:21
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/6/15
From: College Station, Texas
Posts: 537
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
The widely-publicized Lambeth Palace photograph of Rowan, Frank, and Katharine all standing as far away from each other as the camera lens would allow has not been without its effect on many among us.

Well, blimey. I never realized the absence of a group hug would upset the pagans so.

Yeah, I remember that photo of "the Liar, the Witch and the Waffler" and if I had the technical know-how I'd post it here . . . only because it seems to upset ?Marshall.

de la Cuervoria
willpath
Posted: 2007/1/17 2:39  Updated: 2007/1/17 2:39
Quite a regular
Joined: 2005/3/4
From: Northwest
Posts: 64
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
"What a piece of Episcobable. ....sheer obfuscation. I'm sure any English teacher out there would suggest it be condensed into about two paragraphs."
-------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the comment; No doubt the good bishop regards himslef as a Highly Intelligent Person Indeed, complete master of longer sentences.

In content and form, the text is a bad joke.
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/1/17 3:01  Updated: 2007/1/17 3:01
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
lionheart, I love your screen name - I used to publish an off-campus tabloid called "The Lionhearted" lol!

As far as slavery goes, I owe more than $160,000 in student loans and interest accumulated over my 21 years of formal, post-secondary and graduate education. That amount increases at ~7% average APR per annum. Thanks to the recently passed legislation, bankruptcy will no longer clear my debt which take in excess of $1,000 per month from my cash flow.

In essence, I am compelled to work whether I like it or not! Student loans must be paid before my mortgage. Before my health insurance. Before my car bill, all of which I can eliminate or discharge should the need arise.

But not my student loans. And I've been paying on them for twenty years already! And when I die, they will take what they can from my estate.

I am, in fact, in peonage to Collegiate Funding Services - a subsidiary of Chase Manhattan - and Citigroup.

No Jubillee year for me, whether I work or not. And if an H1B visa holder from India comes here and undercuts my wages, too bad for me, the loans must still be paid.

Joe the Indentured Peon-Serf of the Mountain
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/1/17 3:07  Updated: 2007/1/17 3:07
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Ikerliker,

Thanks for the story about ?Marshall. Glad to know his spit-spray wasn't personal!

Too bad about your church - I know it as I once lived near you and still get out that way to French Creek SP, occasionally coming into Birdsboro for supplies. (I also played tenor sax in a Salsa & Merengue band that met in a garage outside of town...)

I feel true sorry for those who have to live under your guy. Chuckles is nutty, but he isn't personally threatening. The few remaining orthodox parishes have ringed their doors with garlic, so he doesn't bother us anymore anyway
Ikerliker
Posted: 2007/1/17 10:47  Updated: 2007/1/17 10:47
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/1/16
From: PA
Posts: 2046
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Joe,

Thanks for the reply. I finally got up the nerve to post after visiting this site for months!

I am no longer under Paul Marshall, I am back in Dio PA again in name only. I play at a Lutheran Church here in town so 99% of the time I am there. However, I sat next to Chucky B during a reception when he was at Christ Church for afternoon confirmation last year and brought up Georgia...he was the Rector of St. Luke's Atlanta while I briefly lived there. It was a disasterous time as he fired most of the staff, caused chaos and fled to EDS (most people would flee from EDS, LOL!) He hates talking about it so the few times I have talked to him, I always go there and watch him squim to change the subject.

Now he has done the same thing on a bigger scale with an entire diocese. Loved your garlic comment. Count Bennison, LOL!

Get a load of this:

On Sunday, February 11, 2007, at 10:00 a.m., the African Episcopal Church of St. Thomas will celebrate the life and ministry of its first rector, the Rev. Absalom Jones. The guest preacher will be the newly elected Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, The Most Reverend Katherine Jefferts-Schori.

Let me rush down there, NOT! Absalom Jones will be rolling over in his grave.

Peace,

Ikerliker
lionheart
Posted: 2007/1/17 17:46  Updated: 2007/1/17 17:46
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/19
From:
Posts: 354
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Joe,

Thanks for the good words about my moniker. I too have student loans, etc. in truly offensive amounts and, in a sense, it is similar to a kind of servitude. Of course, we could default and let it all go, living hand to mouth, but that's not much of an option.

It is not common knowledge apparently but the laws we used to have regarding the sale of property, which said the slaves thereon go with the property, were an inheritance from the old English feudal society where peasants passed with the sale of land. You go back far enough and we were all slaves of one sort or another. It matters what you do with what you've got now.
lh
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2007/1/18 2:14  Updated: 2007/1/18 2:14
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
It's a sorry day for the African Episcopal Church. I hold out hope that the AME will retain some backbone, but the assault is relenting.

I too spent a little time in DioGA ~ 2000. Strange place. The Gay Pride Parade was the talk of the consulting team at Delta Airlines. If those ex-flyboys only knew what their hired hands were like...

So I take it you are an organist. I believe you'll find youself in good company here! And don't worry about posting - screen names and a good dose of Internet good will are part of the VOL experience, although sometimes a thread gets pretty pointed. I believe you'll find this site an excellent way to sharpen your forensic debating skills the next time you give Ckuckles a hard time.

I'm still laughing at the story you told! Ha!
Ikerliker
Posted: 2007/1/19 12:08  Updated: 2007/1/19 12:08
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/1/16
From: PA
Posts: 2046
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Hi Joe,

Yes, Dio Georgia is a strange place. I was uncomfortable in Atlanta for a number of reasons, massive gaydom being one of them. It's unbelievable!! I was glad to return to PA.

Yes, I am an organist. Thanks for your kind words and welcome to VOL. I supppose there is a chance I will see Chuckles again, however, we will see what comes of the special convention extension and all these lawsuits, presentments etc... He really should go back to EDS where it's safe for him. He fits right in there with the rest of the lunatic fringe. Of course, I thought we couldn't get a worse Bishop than A Bartlett either so I shudder to think who would replace Chuckles. Maybe Satan himself.

I have a prayer request for anyone who reads this. My granddaughter is having open heart surgery at Hershey Medical Center on Monday morning. She will be 5 months old tomorrow. Her name is Isabella Grace. Any prayers would be greatly appreciated. We are very anxious about it because she is so small.

God's peace,

Ikerliker
Anonymous
Posted: 2007/1/19 12:21  Updated: 2007/1/19 12:21
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
Ikerliker wrote:
"I have a prayer request for anyone who reads this. My granddaughter is having open heart surgery at Hershey Medical Center on Monday morning. She will be 5 months old tomorrow. Her name is Isabella Grace. Any prayers would be greatly appreciated. We are very anxious about it because she is so small."

Added to prayer list. Please keep us advised as to her progress. You may also want to post on the "Prayer" topic under "Forum."

Blessings,

wopriest+
Ikerliker
Posted: 2007/1/20 15:25  Updated: 2007/1/20 15:25
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/1/16
From: PA
Posts: 2046
 Re: If the Pope can go to Turkey, Can the ABC go to Texas? -
wopriest+,

Thank you for your kindness and suggestion. I didn't realize there was a place for prayers. I am new and still learning the ropes of this site.

As soon as I know more, I will let you know.

Thanks for the prayers!!!

Ikerliker
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