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Exclusives : Episcopal Church Decline Quickens In Wake of GC2006
Posted by David Virtue on 2006/9/20 8:20:00 (8470 reads)

EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006

Commentary

By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
9/20/2006

Nobody is buying any more what the Episcopal Church is selling. The Episcopal Church is imploding; it is running out of ecclesiastical gas. Like a reverse Ponzi scheme, those who got in first are losing more than Johnny-come-latelys. In fact there are very few coming into The Episcopal Church. Nobody is buying V. Gene Robinson's homosexual call to arms, even though every sermon he preaches starts and ends with himself. The Episcopal Church is not being flooded with homosexuals looking for a "sacred space" for their very unsacred behavior.

As large orthodox cardinal parishes like Christ Church, Plano along with a host of large parishes in Florida and California leave with their money and parishioners, increasingly what are left are medium-sized parishes, small missions and parishes run by retired clergy. Across the country churches are slowly but surely emptying. The more so in liberal ones, death catches up with them with aging priests and aging parishes waiting for the grim reaper. It's only a matter of time.

The truth is; there is only so many retired clergy and money to shuffle around before they can't fill the holes any more. Sooner or later the parishes get so small they close. The vast majority of the Episcopal Church's 7,500 parishes have less than 80 members, aged well into their 60's. They are not spiritually reproducing themselves because they have no transformative gospel to proclaim because nine out of the 11 Episcopal seminaries don't teach them what it is, and within a decade most of them will be dead and the properties sold. The new fangled doctrine of inclusivity is not selling. Second career priests will not ultimately staunch the flow either, nor will aging lesbian feminists, one of the fastest growing groups to enter the church. Seminaries like Trinity School for Ministry will increasingly cater to a non-episcopal but wider Anglican community both inside and outside the U.S.

The American Anglican Council tabulates that more than 72,000 Episcopalians (and these are faithful tithers) have left The Episcopal Church since GC2006 and there is no doubt this will only escalate over time.

In a number of dioceses we are seeing rigor mortis already setting in.

In the Diocese of Pennsylvania an estimated 100 out of 150 parishes are barely staying open, while Bishop Charles Bennison told one parish search committee looking for a new priest to consider hiring a gay or lesbian. Some 10 churches have already closed and 30 more are considered at risk, living proof that sodomy and bad liberal theology equals not only physical death but spiritual death as well. Bennison has emptied the trust funds, laid off nearly all his staff, and cries that he needs an additional $100,000 to pay the bills, when more than two thirds of the parishes can't even make their assessment!

The Diocese of Newark, which is about to elect a new bishop, who could be a gay man, is also courting suicide. The Record - the largest newspaper in northern New Jersey - published an extensive article about the decline of the Episcopal Church in the diocese of Newark and noted that under Bishops Jack Spong and John Cronenberg nearly 24,000 congregants - or 46 % of its membership since 1972 or so has been lost. It has also closed 23 congregations and "many congregations are struggling", a significant number have been incurring operating deficits. And some are in fear for their very existence. Furthermore not a single church has opened in 16 years, the report said. Within five years the diocese will be on life support looking to unite with another diocese just to stay alive.

This is the diocese of Dr. Louie Crew who now spends most of his retirement years running around liberal parishes propping them up with his doctrine of inclusion, and persuading fence sitting parishes that not to include practicing sodomites is just so unchristian.

And then there is the Diocese of Central New York where some 60 of 95 parishes won't or can't pay their assessment. The subtext is that they are barely staying afloat and don't have the money to pay the bishop, who is busy spending tens of thousands of dollars in lawsuits to take back properties he can't sell when he finally obtains them. Never mind that these orthodox parishes are going forward with news of God's inbreaking Kingdom. Fuhgetaboutit. "I want my property, ye shall not have it." Of course you can have it bishop and don't forget to mow the lawn and keep the cemetery clean, because the remnant, if there is one, won't be able to buy communion wafers in three months. The diocese is in financial free fall, embroiled in legal woes and fleeing parishes as well as non-paying parishes. Things are so bad there they had to make staff cuts after the disclosure that $43,000 was spent for a forensic audit of one single orthodox parish and its priest, whom the bishop hates, because, among other things, he is orthodox. The Rev. David Bollinger has turned around and sued the bishop for $1.20 million.

Look at the decimated Diocese of Florida - 16 parishes - most of them large, have left the diocese a spiritual wasteland, and Bishop John Howard thinks this is just fine. He recently boasted that when they have all gone he will start over and rebuild from the bottom up! "New life, mission, and ministry will begin in these churches... spending resources and improving our best efforts to rebuild those parishes and missions in our own Diocese which are now striving to re-enter the mainstream of our Episcopal tradition," cried Howard. And what sort of "good news" will that be that his remaining liberal and revisionist clergy are going to proclaim to foolish Floridians.

Or what of the Diocese of Northwest Texas under Bishop C. Wallis Ohl which is in a financial crunch because a number of cardinal parishes have left the diocese, chief among them St. Nicholas', Midland, causing a major financial crisis in the diocese. Some say that this will be the first ECUSA diocese that declares bankruptcy or is forced to align itself with another diocese.

And the Diocese of Kansas, which is staying alive largely on a deal cut by Bishop Dean Wolfe who got a $1 million over 10 years from the evangelical Christ Church in Overland Park, the largest parish in the diocese, so they could keep their property, but of course he had the "privilege" of inhibiting and deposing the priests, but not before he took their money. Apparently someone taught him how to read a balance sheet. But one day even that money too, will run out.

In the Diocese of Southwestern Virginia they passed the hat around recently to reduce their deficit. The Rt. Rev. F. Neff Powell tossed in $5,000 of his own money to get the ball rolling to reduce the diocese's deficit of $114,000. After putting out an appeal for more money the diocese raised an additional $47,000, but the question remains, how many times can you cry wolf? The diocese got a major shock when the largest single donor, St. John's, Roanoke, significantly reduced its voluntary diocesan pledge. "St. John's is not alone," said Bishop Powell. What will happen next year?

In the Diocese of Los Angeles, Bishop J. Jon Bruno said recently that the present method of funding the diocese would have to cease. He cannot fund ministry from the assets of the diocese rather than congregational contributions. The diocese's corporation sole fund, which has been used to underwrite the diocese's ministries, including those for congregational development, will end. Contributions from the fund decreased by $500,000. Bruno wants parishes to increase their financial support and says that parishes not giving 12 to 15 percent need to increase their donations. What Bruno didn't say is that he is using millions of dollars to fund litigation against three parishes that have fled the diocese and ECUSA. He is losing money like crazy and is having to pay their legal fees as well!

The Diocese of Washington's operating budget is held up only by the endowment of one woman, the Soper Trust, to the tune of millions of dollars. For the diocese to stay afloat it will raid the Soper Trust this coming year for $1.26 million, but the projected diocesan budget for 2006 still appears headed for a deficit -- the very model of financial stress. Parish giving cannot sustain diocesan needs.

Many revisionist dioceses that are staying afloat do so because of Dead Men's Money. The national church dips into its mortuary pot (Trust Funds) regularly to stay alive as well.

Even when the bishop wins back the properties the victory is largely hollow. Bishop Bennison is learning the hard way. He threw out the rector of St. James the Less in Philadelphia and Fr. David Ousley took the whole congregation with him. Bennison now has to pay to keep the place up. He cannot easily sell it off because of its historic importance and cemetery. The doors are closed forever.

Now all these dioceses have two things in common. The first is that they are dying because they have no gospel to proclaim, and secondly these bishops have a pathological hatred of orthodox Christianity and those who would promulgate it. 'Give me sodomy and Vicky or give me death', is their rallying cry. And in the end it will be the death of the diocese.

So the question must be asked, how long will all this continue before someone cries 'stop, in the name of God, stop.'

END

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Cennydd
Posted: 2006/9/21 0:10  Updated: 2006/9/21 0:10
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6863
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
This is just the beginning! Wait until after November 1!

Cennydd
Cradle
Posted: 2006/9/21 0:28  Updated: 2006/9/21 0:28
Quite a regular
Joined: 2006/9/10
From: Tx
Posts: 69
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
David----an excellent commentary.

The Episcopal Church that I knew and loved has
already died. We are just "reading" the Church obituaries each week and wondering who will be the last one to leave, close the front door and walk out.
dhrose
Posted: 2006/9/21 1:17  Updated: 2006/9/21 1:17
Just popping in
Joined: 2004/11/1
From:
Posts: 1
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
I give...what happens on Nov 1st??
Cennydd
Posted: 2006/9/21 2:13  Updated: 2006/9/21 2:13
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6863
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Actually, the date is November 4th, when the new Presiding "Bishop," Katharine Jefferts Schori is installed. Watch for the exodus to accelerate!

Cennydd
sentinel
Posted: 2006/9/21 2:41  Updated: 2006/9/21 2:41
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/6/11
From:
Posts: 263
 Talk about a trainwreck
This whole sad affair is like a train wreck - horrifying to witness but you just can't keep your eyes off of the spectacle.

Hopefully, when TEC completely unravels, this will serve as a warning to any flirting with the same disasterous agendas such as PCUSA, ELCA, UMC, etc..
Causidicus
Posted: 2006/9/21 3:28  Updated: 2006/9/21 3:28
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/3
From:
Posts: 1095
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
The revisionist priests and bishops are reaping what they sowed. Having proclaimed that the holy spirit was doing a new thing they are receiving their reward. Ezekiel saw the same thing in his day. (Chapter 13)

6They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

7Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?

8Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

The consequences were not very pleasant then and they will not be pleasant now.

Lord have mercy.
C
Truthseekr
Posted: 2006/9/21 9:14  Updated: 2006/9/21 9:15
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/9/14
From: terra firma ................ ( just a pilgrim passing thru )
Posts: 784
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Quote:
The first is that they are dying because they have no gospel to proclaim, and secondly these bishops have a pathological hatred of orthodox Christianity and those who would promulgate it. 'Give me sodomy and Vicky or give me death', is their rallying cry. And in the end it will be the death of the diocese.

(great summary David)

Decisions - decisions - decisions.

Vicke Gene & sodomy

or

Financial, parish, & diocesian death...

Maybe they will get both!
sure as heck deserve it.
cuervoria
Posted: 2006/9/21 9:38  Updated: 2006/9/21 9:38
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/6/15
From: College Station, Texas
Posts: 541
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Just a question . . .

When will the first historic, city-centre ECUSA property be sold and reopened as a mosque? Can you envision the minarets?

olwol
stmike
Posted: 2006/9/21 10:32  Updated: 2006/9/21 10:32
Quite a regular
Joined: 2004/10/19
From: Plymouth, NH
Posts: 63
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Plymouth, NH

Dear Friends,
The destruction perpetrated by the Modernists (Revisionists, heretics, etc.) is truly spectacular. The next question is what will the orthodox do? What really is needed is for every orthodox parish to start up a mission on the edge of their territory so as to rescue the faithful who are being driven away by the heretics in TEC. This is especially needed in NJ where, as David points out, almost half of the Episcopalians in the Diocese of Newark have been driven away by the "Liberals" in the last thirty years. Here in New England we are doing what we can to serve those who want to remain orthodox Anglicans. We are currently looking for faithful Episcopalians in the the southern suburbs of Boston so as to form a parish. If people in the Westwood-Canton-Randolph-Dedham-Walpole-Norwood area want to have a parish started, they need to contact us now.
Yours in Christ's love, Dean Steward +
(603) 536-1794 or deanjr4@juno.com
Leonard
Posted: 2006/9/21 10:49  Updated: 2006/9/21 10:49
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2004/11/2
From: Denver
Posts: 141
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
The Lord bless your work, Fr. Steward. We'll mention your efforts at Matens.
DnNeal
Posted: 2006/9/21 12:30  Updated: 2006/9/21 12:31
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/9/26
From: Tennessee
Posts: 1302
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Quote:
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16 &17


Literally it reads "in dying you shall die" I'm told.

The warning has been there since the beginning. There is no excuse.

Blessings,

Neal
boggy
Posted: 2006/9/21 12:38  Updated: 2006/9/21 12:38
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/8/29
From:
Posts: 167
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
It was always the money. The lifeblood of the revisionists was always easy to stop, just hard to see for some reason.
frcochran
Posted: 2006/9/21 13:05  Updated: 2006/9/21 13:05
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/6/28
From:
Posts: 544
 Re: Talk about a trainwreck
sentinel,

Somehow I don't think the example of TEC will resonate with the revisionists in other denominations. It seems to me that the way things are unraveling in TEC is precisely what the enemies of God want.

john+
Philippa
Posted: 2006/9/21 13:22  Updated: 2006/9/21 13:23
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/8/28
From:
Posts: 489
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Well, in light of what David has written here, does anyone with any sense believe this is the Holy Spirit at work?

The revisionist gospel is not the true Gospel and nor is it of God--if it was, it would not wreak such havoc everywhere it goes, and everywhere you look. Getting on the Crew-type bandwagon and believing that all who have a problem with this stuff are just not "enlightened", or the "chosen" is a grossly inaccurate, suicidal, sad joke.

If anyone wants to see the source of this "gospel", they should check out hell rather than Heaven.

In Christ,

Philippa
DnNeal
Posted: 2006/9/21 13:29  Updated: 2006/9/21 15:55
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/9/26
From: Tennessee
Posts: 1302
 Re: Talk about a trainwreck
Fr. John,

You are so right!

It is a hallmark of nihilistic thought, cut adrift from any idea of "universals", that people do not learn from experience. Richard Weaver chronicled this in "Ideas Have Consequences" and I read it again in Thomas Hibbs book "Shows About Nothing: Nihilism in Popular Culture from the Exorcist to Seinfeld" and Jerry Seinfeld himself constructed his show to reflect that very phenomenon...on purpose.

Even our experiences are cut off from our experiences in nihilism. Amazing isn't it and completely counter-intuitive but true.

Could anyone have come up with a more subtle and powerful way to deconstruct the Faith than that?

Neal
gregory
Posted: 2006/9/21 14:34  Updated: 2006/9/21 14:34
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/8/4
From: Nflorida
Posts: 4436
 Re: Talk about a trainwreck
gregory
Posted: 2006/9/21 14:41  Updated: 2006/9/21 14:41
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/8/4
From: Nflorida
Posts: 4436
 Re: Talk about a trainwreck


A Genuine Awakening
ReviewerDouglas P. McManaman from Aurora Ontario
Date:08/04/2000 1:54:20 PM

Thomas Hibbs is a professor of Philosophy at Boston College. In this particular work, his prose is simply masterful. The work contains not a trace of evidence of a cynical spirit. The tone throughout is gentle and the analysis of and insight into selected films is both penetrating and vast in scope. One easily detects a mountainous weight of education and learning behind the pages of this relatively short piece of writing. In it Hibbs traces the gradual changes in perspective on evil (and goodness) that lurks behind the production of American film, and he very carefully demonstrates how these changes insidiously move in the direction of Nietzsche's special brand of Nihilism. The connections that he draws between lines in episodes of Seinfeld (and other sitcoms) and the philosophical implications of Nietzsche's thought is truly astounding and enlightening, so much so that one inevitably has the feeling of being slowly awakened from a partial slumber. The book is so rich in ideas that before finishing it, one will likely have made plans to read it again.


=========

This is a difficult find ;

Temporarily Unavailable to Order

unless ya want to pay high...

gregory
Anonymous
Posted: 2006/9/21 14:55  Updated: 2006/9/21 14:55
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
another "liberal" denomination in the USA that "misreads" the Bible and has a "mistaken" perception of morality etc etc etc AND, of course, is seeing its numbers decline.

September 3, 2006 .................... LCMSNews -- No. 55

Latest statistics show drop in LCMS membership

If there's a bright spot in the Synod's statistical report for 2005, it's that "back-door" losses -- the number of adults removed from congregational rosters (not counting deaths and transfers) -- have declined by 2,453 members. That figure dropped from 44,219 in 2004 to 41,766 in 2005.

But LCMS membership and contributions from members to congregations also declined, as did the number of baptisms, confirmations, and Christian education programs/students, according to 2005 congregational statistics reports.

Baptized membership fell from 2,463,747 in 2004 to 2,440,864 in 2005, a drop of nearly 23,000 members. And confirmed membership in 2005 was 1,870,659, a decrease of 9,554.

LCMS Senior Research Analyst Dr. John O'Hara attributes the loss of members to a "continuing trend" that is affecting most mainline Christian denominations.

In the 1950s and '60s, churches saw a "natural increase" because families were larger, O'Hara noted. Today's families are much smaller, and societal norms regarding religious participation have changed, he said.

"The expectation that you went to church [every Sunday] isn't as prevalent as in the '50s," said O'Hara. "You have to work harder to get the people in the front door."

The downward trend in membership and Sunday-school students -- in spite of a rising U.S. population -- also is a sign that "we're not reaching as many people as we could reach," he said.

Membership figures for 2005 were based on reports from 81 percent of the Synod's 6,144 congregations. Nineteen percent did not provide information on membership, so figures from their previous reports were used to compile the data for 2005.

Also down are contributions from members to congregations, which fell $10,945,272 -- from $1,307,764,010 in 2004 to $1,296,818,738. Those figures do not include contributions members give directly to LCMS entities.

The shortfall of nearly $11 million in 2005 is due primarily to the "under-reporting of contributions," says O'Hara, who estimates that some 29 percent of congregations did not provide that information.

LCMS Secretary Dr. Raymond Hartwig, who supervises the Synod's Office of Rosters and Statistics, which compiles the information, says it's "less than helpful" when congregations choose not to report -- a phenomenon that occurs every year. And, he says, "it's a little puzzling, since we've simplified the forms to the extent that it would only take a few minutes to complete them and return them."

Every three years, the Synod's national office asks district staffs and circuit counselors to contact their own congregations in an effort to get the forms returned because "delegate representation at the coming convention depends on the statistics we receive," Hartwig said. "Our [return] goal is 100 percent, and one of these years we're going to get there."

According to the 2005 report, of the nearly $1.3 billion congregations received in contributions, they gave $120.2 million for work beyond their own ministries. This "work at large" total includes money forwarded to the 35 LCMS districts, which then send a portion to the national and international work of the Synod. Congregations sent $3.2 million less for "work at large" than in 2004.

In 2005, the Synod had 6,144 congregations served by 5,343 pastors. The number of congregations declined by seven, while the number of active pastors increased by 20. Average attendance at weekly worship services was 164.2 in 2005, compared with 173.6 the previous year.

The number of baptisms, confirmations, and Christian education programs/students all fell between 2004 and 2005, according to congregations. But the number of adults gained by "profession of faith" grew -- from 12,878 to 13,114, an increase of 236.

Among the official acts reported:

* 31,701 children were baptized (down 1,150).

* 24,572 teenagers were confirmed (down 753).

* 18,684 adults were confirmed (down 469).

In the Christian education category:

* 3,922 weekday religion classes (down 230).

* 184,934 students in weekday religion classes (down 13,120).

* 24,078 non-members in weekday classes (down 2,582).

* 3,804 vacation Bible schools (down 181).

* 5,106 Sunday schools (down 224).

* 423,958 enrolled in Sunday school (down 27,456).
Damascus
Posted: 2006/9/21 15:00  Updated: 2006/9/21 15:00
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/9/26
From: Republic of Karelia
Posts: 640
 Re: Talk about a trainwreck
The United Church of Christ, known as Congregationalists in my part of the world, took exactly the same path that ECUSA has chosen back in the 90's. In less than a decade the denomination lost a third of its members and most of the marginal churches have now closed. As the church became smaller it also became even more ideological and extreme.

They now have a national advertising campaign going to try and draw in more like-minded people. Apparently they weren't inundated with a wave of homosexuals beating down their doors.

It would have been obvious to any astute person what was going to happen when ECUSA chose its present course. There was ample evidence to indicate that this would be a bad development. The UCC and ECUSA tended to have similar demographic profiles so why would you think that the results would be different?

The fact is that they did know what would happen and didn't care. When you forsake the Gospel message and choose to worship at the alter of unquestioning inclusivity, sometimes you have to accept sacrifices. Closeted gay bishops such as Tom Shaw and Dorsey Henderson, and perhaps the bi-curious Frank Griswold, knew that this would hurt the Church but thought that advancing gay acceptance was more important. They hoped that they would be able to slip this past the sheep in the pews, but were willing to face the consequences if they could not.

Those consequences are now here. The less committed bishops may be starting to have doubts about the wisdom of this course but the true believers will continue on at full steam ahead. The voluntary departure of the orthodox from their diocese merely saves them the trouble of purging them piecemeal. The fact that they are departing with their money is not a huge issue. Most will lose their properties and the sale of those will keep the diocese afloat long enough for the current bishops to reach retirement. After that, who the hell cares what becomes of things.
gregory
Posted: 2006/9/21 15:37  Updated: 2006/9/21 15:39
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/8/4
From: Nflorida
Posts: 4436
 Re: Talk about a trainwreck
PROPHECIES



"The chastisement will come when carriages go without horses and many accidents fill the world with woe. It will come when thoughts are flying around the earth in the twinkling of an eye, when long tunnels are made for horseless machines, when men can fly in the air and ride under the sea, when ships are wholly made of metal, when fire and water great marvels do, when even the poor can read books, and when many taxes are levied for war."

Mother Shipton - Sixteenth Century

====================================

"During this period, many men will abuse of the freedom of conscience conceded to them. It is of such men that Jude the Apostle spoke when he said: 'These men blaspheme whatever they do not understand; and they corrupt whatever they know naturally as irrational animals do... They will ridicule Christian simplicity; they will call it folly and nonsense, but they will have the highest regard for advanced knowledge, and for the skill by which the axioms of law, the precepts of morality, the Holy Canons and religious dogmas are clouded by senseless questions and elaborate arguements."

Ven. Bartholomew Holzhauser - Seventeenth Century


gregory
Philippa
Posted: 2006/9/21 15:43  Updated: 2006/9/21 15:50
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/8/28
From:
Posts: 489
 Re: Talk about a trainwreck
Yeah, a real godly agenda, isn't it, Damascus? Just one big happy family...

Of course, you are totally right about this...when the largest, richest parish in the National Church, regardless of theological views, leaves with their everything and the 815 "leadership" does nothing, the handwriting is firmly on the wall. Christ Church, Plano with a whopping 2200 on a Sunday and all of its wealth, mission, and evangelism and who cares if it walks out the door.

Well, when it all finally comes out in the wash, maybe TEC, or, the "Unitarian Liturgical Church" can merge with the UCC, or, as I've heard it called, the "Unitarians Considering Christ". At least then TEC would be what it is, rather than trying to masquerade as something it's not.

I'll reiterate my usual point--if all of this was truly of God, it wouldn't be like this.

But still, I am hopeful. I'm reminded of the words of the young, female Polish engineer talking to Ralph Fiennes's perverse, evil Nazi officer--"you will NEVER win this"...Rick Warren, too, believes that there are more important things than money and property. How many people do you know who are rich with beautiful houses but royally corrupt? I know some. It's the true Gospel that matters, and that will NEVER die.

In Christ,

Philippa
gregory
Posted: 2006/9/21 15:48  Updated: 2006/9/21 15:48
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/8/4
From: Nflorida
Posts: 4436
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006



"If anyone wants to see the source of this "gospel", they should check out hell"

And here is The Episcopal Church in picture form.

gregory
JCReigns
Posted: 2006/9/21 16:28  Updated: 2006/9/21 16:28
Just popping in
Joined: 2006/8/14
From:
Posts: 2
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
The Epsicopal Church will survive and will flourish. Nothing, not even you modern day Pharisees, is going to destroy this old dinosaur of a church.
fastball
Posted: 2006/9/21 16:35  Updated: 2006/9/21 16:35
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/6/29
From: Oklahoma City
Posts: 555
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
"The Epsicopal Church will survive and will flourish. Nothing, not even you modern day Pharisees, is going to destroy this old dinosaur of a church."
-------------------------------------------------

...said the last remaining Episcopal dinosaur.
db4him
Posted: 2006/9/21 16:58  Updated: 2006/9/21 16:58
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/5/19
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
There is nothing amazing at work here... the parties involved have two very different objectives.

Orthodox are looking to bring the Good News to as many as possible, and thus put a high level of importance on church growth. The more folks brought into Christ's Church, the more we are being faithful to fulfill the great commission.

The revisionist agenda, however, is not to bring as many as possible to Christ; it is, rather, to validate aberrant behavior and make it acceptable. These two very different objectives will invariably produce very different results.

The fact that TEC is shrinking at what to orthodox is an alarming rate is not the primary concern of the revisionists... it is, in fact, a necessary by-product of achieving their objective. A price to be paid, if you will.

The orthodox see the patient being slowly put to death, the revisionists see the patient as something that needs to be brought to the point of death in order to be remade in the image they desire. The patient may ultimately have no arms or legs, but will be an emaciated torso that operates with their belief system.
gregory
Posted: 2006/9/21 17:31  Updated: 2006/9/21 17:32
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Revisionists are trying to take away a person's free will.

God wants us to have free will.

Scareey either way...

humbly, gregory
DnNeal
Posted: 2006/9/21 18:57  Updated: 2006/9/21 18:57
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
JCReigns wrote:

Quote:
The Epsicopal Church will survive and will flourish. Nothing, not even you modern day Pharisees, is going to destroy this old dinosaur of a church.


Would you care to provide any evidence substantiating your prediction? There is plenty to suggest that it is going the other direction.

Neal
warmac9999
Posted: 2006/9/21 19:27  Updated: 2006/9/21 19:32
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
My thoughts on all of this go back to the mid-1960s and the rise of the anti-establishment movement in this country. Up to that point, the Episcopal church was a growing a vibrant institution that created and well served a local community of Christian followers. Then along came the anti-war and anti-community (or pro civil rights) movements. (By the way, I am not arguing against civil rights laws --- just noting that one of the results was the destruction of the coherence of like communities. Because of governmentally imposed changes and the rise of the left, the local church no longer supported ethnic coherence in the immediate vicinity but became an active and vocal participant in block busting or politically correct diversity.)

The Episcopal church was very much in the forefront of the diversity movement and just kept extending the diversity movement to the point at which there is now no coherent community and, even worse, no ideological principles upon which to create and maintain a coherent community. At this point, the Episcopal church is a collection of odd and ends, and a thoroughly destabilized organization.

As this sorry situation unfolds, the Episcopal church cannot do anything but decline in a manner similar to that of the Anglican Church of Canada - a church which is in about as serious a situation as a national organization can be. It should be no surprise to anyone that dioceses in those areas with the greatest liberals in charge are failing from the radical experiments of people like Bennison, Spong, Griswold and eventually Schori.
DnNeal
Posted: 2006/9/21 19:50  Updated: 2006/9/21 19:54
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 Re: Talk about a trainwreck
Thanks for posting these "books" Gregory.

I highly recommend them both. The first is a bona fide classic in the truest sense.

The second is extraordinary and I am reading it again.

They are the best expose of nihilism in Western culture along with Alan Bloom's "The Closing of the American Mind" and David Walsh's "After Ideology: Recovering the Spiritual Foundations of Freedom" that I have read.

Blessings!

Neal
patience
Posted: 2006/9/21 20:02  Updated: 2006/9/21 20:02
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Warmac,

Spot on! The lefties got to try out their alternative 'narratives' and its now a slow motion (although quickening) train wreck. Watch them look to assign blame elsewhere as the money dries up.

David - you got to the 'heart' of VGR's crusades - his sermon's begin and end with himself. How the progressive churches that like to promote his visits are blind to this is beyond me, but I suggest they get a short term high from his hitting the main revisionist talking points but the inevitable long-term chills roll back in - humanism and self exultation simply cannot provide for us the change of heart and transfiguration our hearts yearn for.

As orthodox believers, however, while we see decline, we must always be attuned to a calling to minister in love and truth, even to our nastiest detractors. We are on solid ground when we speak truth and call out falsity. I encourage VOL readers to avoid the trap of vindictiveness towards the wrecking-ball progressive crew, because it will only leave us stuck in place. VOL readers, be mindful:

- We have good news to share - lets get on and share it;

- the darkness cannot overcome the perpetual light of the living God; this is the everlasting Word of God. So don't fixate on the darkness, focus on the light of the world! He is always surprising with how much he does with our little...
gregory
Posted: 2006/9/21 20:20  Updated: 2006/9/21 20:21
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
patience, excellent post and what i try very hard to stay focused on.

"We have good news to share - lets get on and share it."

Christ is Risen!

Glory to Jesus Christ, the one from the Virgin Birth (Annunciation), the one that takes away our sins (Crucifixion ) and the one that offers Eternal Life (Resurrection),
gregory
rossi
Posted: 2006/9/21 20:30  Updated: 2006/9/21 20:30
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
The people who call themselves Orthodox Episcopalians are the responsible for this situation. What were they doing in the last 30 years? Why the American Anglican council has the control of just about 10% of the Episcopalian congregations. How many churches they have planted in the last 30 years? And the FiF people are not better. Is just to look at the numbers of the 3 FiF dioceses, they are small, they became a refugee for pastors that like to have the title father in front their name. They and their bishops past the last 30 years arguing about women bishops and priests. They are all about dressing up, ritual and decoration. If the people of the AAC and FIF, now ACN, had preached the TRANSFORMATIVE GOSPEL of JESUS CHRIST in the last 30 years the PECUSA wouldn't be in this situation. Now is too later to do any thing.
rossi
Posted: 2006/9/21 20:40  Updated: 2006/9/21 20:40
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Frehao I'm very familiar with the LC-MS, it was my Church in Brazil(230.000 baptized ), the problem is that it is a church for conservative old people. They have good teaching, but they worship like the Lutherans used to worship in Germany in the XVI century.
angler2
Posted: 2006/9/21 20:59  Updated: 2006/9/21 20:59
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Rossi - Surely you don't count the likes of Bps. Ackerman and Schofield amongst those who failed to preach the "transforming gospel" of Jesus Christ or who just like "dressing up." Come on, now! Anglo Catholic liturgy was and is one of the most dependable sources of new converts to the Faith - provided it is accompanied by soild biblical preaching and teaching. You are shooting at the wrong target. Church planting is important but so is maintaning strong parishes, and both men have done so brilliantly while under severe oppression.
Philippa
Posted: 2006/9/21 21:02  Updated: 2006/9/21 21:02
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Yes, Warmac, your post is beautifully accurate. Thank you.

You know, I have a graduate degree and didn't just fall off the bus; but, when I grow up, I want to be as well-read as Neal.



Thank you, too, Gregory, for posting the book information.

In the One,

Philippa
jane4re
Posted: 2006/9/21 21:08  Updated: 2006/9/21 21:11
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
When will the first historic, city-centre ECUSA property be sold and reopened as a mosque? Can you envision the minarets?

Considering there are now more Muslim in this country that Episcopalians, this is not too farfetched a vision. However, they may not accept the property since they probably would not see it as "holy".
CDRMike
Posted: 2006/9/21 21:09  Updated: 2006/9/21 21:09
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
I suppose it is a sin to take delight in the demise of the TEC. Therefore I'll save my usual witty comments for a specific idiot, one that will get a new pointy hat on 1 November.
RCPeters
Posted: 2006/9/21 23:40  Updated: 2006/9/21 23:40
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
"Total Truth" by Nancy Pearcey is an excellent book for understanding how our church got to this place, where Truth is reduced to subjective impressions and experiences. It helps one understand those in control of the Episcopal Church, and provides armor and ammunition for the fight.

Reed
Anonymous
Posted: 2006/9/21 23:44  Updated: 2006/9/21 23:44
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Poster: rossi Posted: 2006/9/21 20:40:07

Frehao I'm very familiar with the LC-MS, it was my Church in Brazil(230.000 baptized ), the problem is that it is a church for conservative old people. They have good teaching, but they worship like the Lutherans used to worship in Germany in the XVI century.

------------------------------

Rossi,

Replacing "Germany" with "England"... don´t you get the "orthodox remnant" ideal?
BroSun43
Posted: 2006/9/22 1:20  Updated: 2006/9/22 1:20
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
When my wife, daughter, and I left TEC in July, our "lifeboat" was a new, contemporary LCMS church not far from our home. We opted NOT to go to ELCA (the Lutheran version of ECUSA), for fear that we'd only be leaving that body in 3 to 5 years as they continue down the same road as TEC. LCMS is not at all Liberal--perhaps you have your Lutheran abbreviations confused.
sentinel
Posted: 2006/9/22 1:38  Updated: 2006/9/22 1:38
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Quote:
They have good teaching, but they worship like the Lutherans used to worship in Germany in the XVI century


Sounds like my kinda church.

Having played guitar and bass in rock bands through my teens and early 20s and later on the "praise teams" in a denomination that was responsible for much of the contemporary worship played these days, I'll take a 1662 or 1928 BCP and a traditional hymnal anyday over happy clappy, camp fire song worship music any day.
Cennydd
Posted: 2006/9/22 3:57  Updated: 2006/9/22 3:57
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Sentinel, like you, I'm a guitarist, but I'm also a chorister with 50 years of experience in Church choirs. I also prefer the 1928 BCP, or failing that, Rite 1....which admittedly isn't perfect, but that's another story. I am not against using contemporary music....provided it's performed well, and in the right setting....which for me is an occasional youth service in the Parish Hall. I don't think that the Mass is the proper setting for contemporary music....particularly in a large church or cathedral.

I prefer to use the Hymnal 1940 instead of the Hymnal 1982, because the hymns are unaltered, and I don't like the de-sexification of today's book. We don't need to stick strictly to the Hymnal, but neither do we need to use "happy clappy campfire songs" ala the fundamentalist Protestant style, either.

Cennydd
ZachD
Posted: 2006/9/22 9:25  Updated: 2006/9/25 15:26
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
As a chorester from the tender age of 8, and well into middle-adult years (but not now), I applaud and echo some of these latest comments.

Lending my voice in the congregation these days, I robustly sing the traditional choruses with (sacred), unaltered words from my memory banks.

So much more worshipful and honouring to God!
So much more enlightening to me.

(My parish has blended the traditional with the contemporary in one service, and this has been somewhat successful as a 'convergent worship style'. It has been difficult on the elderly, with some notable exceptions.)

Addendum:
It has been good, very very good; to not get hung up on the 'pissing match' of the Where do you stand thread. I appreciate the respectfulness shown here. And I am pleased that this has been brought to the fore by 'patience'.
gregory
Posted: 2006/9/22 10:17  Updated: 2006/9/22 10:17
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006


http://www.gnpcb.org/sites/total.truth/

Do click the link

Poster: RCPeters Posted: 2006/9/21 23:40:08
"Total Truth" by Nancy Pearcey is an excellent book for understanding how our church got to this place, where Truth is reduced to subjective impressions and experiences. It helps one understand those in control of the Episcopal Church, and provides armor and ammunition for the fight.
BroSun43
Posted: 2006/9/22 10:57  Updated: 2006/9/22 10:57
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
"Poster: RCPeters Posted: 2006/9/21 23:40:08
"Total Truth" by Nancy Pearcey is an excellent book for understanding how our church got to this place, where Truth is reduced to subjective impressions and experiences. It helps one understand those in control of the Episcopal Church, and provides armor and ammunition for the fight."

What fight?! If the rest of the Anglican world can't bring TEC to its senses, and even ++Williams is saying that nothing in the way of change is going to happen anytime soon, what chance to ordinary folks have in effecting that change--other than by voting with their feet, and moving on? If Scripture is not enough ammunition in defense of orthodox Christian belief, I seriously doubt the liberals are going to listen to a contemporary author (other than one supporting the lesbigay agenda). Don't forget that Our Lord, in the Gospels, tells us how to deal with such folks. And my family made darn sure to knock dust from our sandals as we turned and left TEC.
rossi
Posted: 2006/9/22 14:26  Updated: 2006/10/2 18:16
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
BroSun43, the LC-MS is conservative "FUNDAMENTALIST", they regard the Bible as the literal word of God, and I agree with them. The problem is the worship. In my Congregation in Brazil the pastor was almost expelled from the denomination because started to use modern music and alternative liturgy, even that he is a orthodox Lutheran that think that only the Missouri Synod practice the true Christian Faith.
ZachD
Posted: 2006/9/22 15:28  Updated: 2006/9/22 15:28
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
WOW, lucky fella!

Small place, that heaven!
RCPeters
Posted: 2006/9/22 18:55  Updated: 2006/9/22 18:55
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
BroSun43, you asked "What fight?", and I agree with everything you say. The fight I mean is one-on-one with friends and fellow parishioners. To discuss and persuade, I needed first to understand where in the world they were coming from in their theology. I had found it incomprehensible that anyone in the church, in any role, wouldn't believe that the basic tenets of the faith are true. The existence in the church of men like Bp Spong I found mystifying. I needed to understand how there could be such a large number of like-minded people maneuvering the Episcopal Church into error without, until now, a real fight.
I found The book by Nancy Pearcy to be like a flash of lightening on this issue. She shows the origins and development, historically and philosophically, of the mindset that has all but overwhelmed our church and cut it from its roots.
Her book enabled me to understand how this has happened, and how to talk about it rationally. My reaction from the late 1960's until reading this book has been simply dismay, anger, and heartache. I feel now that there are great Christian thinkers weighing in on this disaster that is our culture and our culture-driven church, giving me the ammo I need to have rational, loving, and firm responses to what's happening. I haven't finished the book yet -- it is very meaty, and much of the philosophy underpinning the modern world is new to me and takes some understanding, but it is a great tool.
"Almighty God, give us grace that we may cast away the works of darkness, and put upon us the armour of light, now in the time of this mortal life, in which thy Son Jesus Christ came to visit us in great humility;" Collect 1st Sunday in Advent
gregory
Posted: 2006/9/22 19:37  Updated: 2006/9/22 19:37
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 Re: Talk about a trainwreck
Neal, The thanks belongs to you for i am happy to help.


Alan Bloom's "The Closing of the American Mind"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Bloom#Closing_of_the_American_Mind


======
David Walsh's "After Ideology: Recovering the Spiritual Foundations of Freedom"

A moving, lucid call for spiritual renewal, July 10, 2000
Reviewer: "tim_farrington" (Virginia Beach, VA United States) - See all my reviews
David Walsh's book is far more than a Christian critique of modernity. Through his profound readings of Solzhenitsyn, Camus, Dostoevsky, and Voegelin, he makes a compelling--even thrilling--case that the real "solution" to modernity's systematic impoverishment of our souls' longing for transcendence must come not from the facile rejection of modernity's values but from an immersion and understanding of these values so complete that it bottoms out in despair. Only a purgative suffering of the human and spiritual emptiness of the various ideological solutions can allow us to open our souls to a fresh experience of grace--we must pass through the fire of modern atheism and secular humanism in order to burn free of the unrealities inherent in these systematic rejections of divine order. If the book has a fault, it may be that it is too optimistic about the inevitability of this process unfolding on a large scale; but hope is a forgivable virtue. This is a beautifully written, closely reasoned book capable of changing lives.
DnNeal
Posted: 2006/9/22 19:59  Updated: 2006/9/22 19:59
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 Re: Talk about a trainwreck
Gregory,

I think Walsh's book may be my favorite book on the subject and it took me quite a long time to read it. It was well worth the time though.

It gets five full stars from me but so do the others I mentioned. At my age I have decided that I don't have time for bad books or bad movies or, most especially, bad theology.

Blessings

Neal
daleadams
Posted: 2006/9/23 20:04  Updated: 2006/9/23 20:06
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
"When my wife, daughter, and I left TEC in July, our 'lifeboat' was a new, contemporary LCMS church not far from our home. We opted NOT to go to ELCA (the Lutheran version of ECUSA), for fear that we'd only be leaving that body in 3 to 5 years as they continue down the same road as TEC. LCMS is not at all Liberal--perhaps you have your Lutheran abbreviations confused."
You may be right, BroSun43,
But I'm a fighter. I joined ELCA, and if I find myself betrayed as ECUSA did to me, I'll leave it, too.
LCMS thinks nobody else is Christian, apparently, having the gall to change the Creed from "Catholic" to "Christian", meaning themselves, I guess. They're Triumphalists.


Dale Adams
unitarian
Posted: 2006/9/23 21:07  Updated: 2006/9/23 21:07
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
What did the new religion people expect? Leave out issues of God. Any organization that lacks a mission it can articulate, has an erratic and undisciplined management, is unable to recruit new people, and relies on assets to pay the bills, is bound to go down the drain.

as ever

Boston Unitarian
Anonymous
Posted: 2006/9/23 22:16  Updated: 2006/9/23 22:24
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
I read somewhere that Bishops and other leaders at GC-2003 (perhaps not on the convention floor but in groups or whatever) were speculating:

If the church abandons the Bible and "goes gay", how many members will stay, how many will leave, and how many new members will be attracted by the new modern non-Biblical theology? Will revenues from the newly-attracted members equal or exceed revenues lost when orthodox members leave for other denominations?

It made me sick then, and it is sickening now.

And apparently the optimistic (for the revisionsist) calculations were seriously flawed.

The reason?

The purveyors of the gay agenda and other infiltrators were not out to take ECUSA or TEC from its members so much as they, driven by hatred, wanted to destroy a Christian denomination, and ECUSA or TEC was the easiest and most obvious target.

Like a group of vandals, they'd rather destroy than merely steal.

Consequently, the number of gays and other so-called liberals joining TEC has fallen far short of the predicted (or hoped-for) numbers.

There's not going to be enough Episcopalians, orthodox OR revisionist, to keep all these cathedrals, bishops, etc. fed. Those who remain will fight over the crumbs that are left behind. Unless one faction destroys the other, they'll all starve slowly.

And of course I'm not in the least surprised that the revisionists are blaming the orthodox.

Like a bunch of hippies! Yeech!
BroSun43
Posted: 2006/9/24 2:20  Updated: 2006/9/24 2:20
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
"I joined ELCA, and if I find myself betrayed as ECUSA did to me, I'll leave it, too.
LCMS thinks nobody else is Christian, apparently, having the gall to change the Creed from "Catholic" to "Christian", meaning themselves, I guess."

Dale-
I'm looking at the text of the Nicene Creed in my copy of the Book of Concord (for those unfamiliar with it, it is the Lutheran historic documents...and takes up more room than the last 25 or so pages of the BCP in the Episcopal Church). The language is exactly the same, including "catholic." In the German translation of the Nicene Creed, it says "Christian." But then, all Protestant denominations added to the Lord's Prayer during the Reformation.

Many former Episcopalians I know who went over to ELCA are already expressing concerns that they may be in for the same fight all over again in that church. Hopefully ELCA will learn from the pending death of TEC that liberal politics and religion don't mix.
-Jeff
ZachD
Posted: 2006/9/25 15:38  Updated: 2006/9/25 21:26
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
"The purveyors of the gay agenda and other infiltrators were not out to take ECUSA or TEC from its members so much as they, driven by hatred, wanted to destroy a Christian denomination, and ECUSA or TEC was the easiest and most obvious target.

"Like a group of vandals, they'd rather destroy than merely steal.

"Consequently, the number of gays and other so-called liberals joining TEC has fallen far short of the predicted (or hoped-for) numbers.

"There's not going to be enough Episcopalians, orthodox OR revisionist, to keep all these cathedrals, bishops, etc. fed. Those who remain will fight over the crumbs that are left behind. Unless one faction destroys the other, they'll all starve slowly.

"And of course I'm not in the least surprised that the revisionists are blaming the orthodox.

"Like a bunch of hippies! Yeech!"
_________________________________________

Brilliant, Marcellus!
If not 'brilliant', then I just plain like it!

Where I come from, a retired Archdeacon seems to have some of the most vociferous hatred directed towards the Church, that I have ever seen! (And I have seen too much of what ought NOT to be seen in my brief 44 years). He is an angry, millitant, revisionist liberal, who has been a sexual pervert who has targeted children and defiled his marriage bed. He had enjoyed the 'corridors of power' throughout much of his carreer, and his family and friends' work continues!

Apostacy and rebellion have polluted the whole body of Christ. Biblical admonitions for love, discipline, teaching, correction, rebuke and order, have been cast aside by all, hoping for some bastardized notion of inclusivity to hold us together! The orthodox faithful are shamefully guilty for this morass in which we now find ourselves!

"Like a bunch of hippies! Yeech!"
Weren't the hippies the ANTIESTABLISHMENT, before they grew up (physically, only) to become THE ESTABLISHMENT?

Lord, have mercy!!
ZachD
Posted: 2006/9/25 16:02  Updated: 2006/9/25 16:12
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Jeff,

Lemmings don't learn much of anything, beyond 'follow the leader'!

This is a spiritual battle, visited by minions and strongholds of evil. A 'New Sodom' is being created before our very eyes.

But our God is the greater! And the Victor!

We should be engaged in fasting, prayer, and good works. We should be getting aquainted with the Word in humility, and in keeping short accounts with God; remembering that 'confession' and 'repentance' thing!

We should pray the water and blood of Christ's sacrifice to be poured over us. And for the full armour of God to be about us.

We should be praying for, rather than vilifing, those who are advancing evil as the next greater good. God loves their souls, too, and seeks that not one would be lost.
patience
Posted: 2006/9/25 19:21  Updated: 2006/9/25 19:21
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
ZachD

We are to live out redemption by stepping forth in boldness, confident in the gracious salvation offered in the shed blood and broken body of Jesus of Nazareth. Blessed be the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. What joy is HIS calling!
rossi
Posted: 2006/9/25 21:13  Updated: 2006/9/25 21:13
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Daleadam the Lutherans always used Christian Church instead Catholic Church, the ELCA has changed to Catholic Church.
ZachD
Posted: 2006/9/25 21:24  Updated: 2006/9/25 21:24
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 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Amen! to that, patience.

Boldness is lacking in many today; but not, thankfully, in all.


As Jesus lives and reigns,
thepilgrim
Posted: 2006/9/25 22:25  Updated: 2006/9/25 22:25
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Posts: 7
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
Rossi said . . . .

"The people who call themselves Orthodox Episcopalians are the responsible for this situation. What were they doing in the last 30 years? Why the American Anglican council has the control of just about 10% of the Episcopalian congregations. How many churches they have planted in the last 30 years?"

Well, all I can speak to is the state of Kentucky, where Orthodox have opened eleven new parishes in the last couple of years. Now ask how many new parishes TEC has seeded in the same time frame. I'll give you a hint: it's a LOT less than the orthodox.
Skyraider
Posted: 2006/9/27 2:15  Updated: 2006/9/27 2:15
Just popping in
Joined: 2006/9/27
From:
Posts: 1
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
No surprise that uploaded submissions reflect the fact that the Episcopal church we grew up with is disassembling. The trigger is geared to Bishop Robinson’s arrival on scene. Many of the uploaders quote scripture, others present the damaging numbers.

Regardless of the prose or the root given in this information exchange, the foci (plural, right?) are on the health of this which we love dearly...our church.

Each side rallies, neither gaining an edge. Real life in this crisis. The facts are these: Hard numbers reveal a serious and growing exodus of Episcopal members who, in their flight, maintain an ongoing, intense desire to associate with a church whose principles embrace the orthodox approach. Where can we find an Episcopal church that fits?

Good question.

I’m reminded of the French situation: When things are intolerable and beyond control, Storm the Bastille. Promises and meetings have failed the test of time. This is not a silent majority thing, it has become an unorganized majority flight pleading for leadership.

Banging Bibles won’t help. Collecting numbers won’t help. Doing something will.

Looking for a leader here.
Anonymous
Posted: 2006/9/30 12:17  Updated: 2006/9/30 12:18
 Re: EPISCOPAL CHURCH DECLINE QUICKENS IN WAKE OF GC2006
God's peace. Skyraider said: "Banging Bibles won’t help. Collecting numbers won’t help. Doing something will.

"Looking for a leader here."

If you're set on remaining Anglican, you don't need to look farther than Bp. Akinola. He's one of the very few who not only speaks the truth, but backs up his actions with words. Faith without works is dead! Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
gregory
Posted: 2006/9/30 12:41  Updated: 2006/9/30 12:41
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/8/4
From: Nflorida
Posts: 4436
 Re: Episcopal Church Decline Quickens In Wake of GC2006
The decline is close to the edge... Soon lifeboats will not be available;

ZachD
Posted: 2006/10/2 9:11  Updated: 2006/10/2 9:11
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/11/10
From:
Posts: 1791
 Re: Episcopal Church Decline Quickens In Wake of GC2006
Ominous, isn't it?

Excellent visual representation!

I will make an assumption, though, that the 'lemmings in the centre' will forever lack the brains or fortitude to seek out a lifeboat.

Those with wisdom and choice enough will always have a godly way of escape. "Always" will not be an option, forever. One day (soon), the day of decision will surely come for all who seek Life in Christ, and shun evil.
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