COLUMBUS, OH: Truth should be more important than unity
By Michael Nazir-Ali
COMMENTARY
The Telegraph
6/25/2006
In many ways, the United States is a study in contrasts. It is full of clashing colours and jangling messages. Socially and politically, it is very divided. The "neocons" have clear views on everything from Iraq to abortion, and the "progressives" have the opposite - but also equally clear - opinions on such matters. We would expect, then, to find these divisions reflected in broadly-based organisations such as the Churches and we would not be wrong. All of the so-called "mainline" Churches have this fault-line running through them.
Why, then, should I have been shocked on entering the Greater Columbus Convention Centre in Ohio, where the General Convention of the Episcopal Church (the Anglican Church in the USA) was being held? Should I not have expected tension, difference and debate? There was, first of all, culture shock. It felt to me like a trendy exhibition put together by some ultra-politically-correct organisation, with all the favourite causes of the fashionable prominent. There was, however, a more profound reason for feeling uncomfortable: it became plain quite quickly that this was not a conflict merely of styles, attitudes or even opinions but of two quite different views of religion.
One tendency that was informing the culture of the convention, in a major way, was to do with the diffuse religiosity of the present-day West. Such religiosity, in my view, has much in common with New Age ideas, vague as these often are, such as nature mysticism, or a sense of oneness with the world around, and pantheism, the belief that everything is divine: God is identified with Mother Nature and also with our own souls. Jesus then becomes just a special example of a god-self. Such a world-view is likely to be optimistic, inclusive and non-judgmental. It regards the world and the people in it as more or less as God intended them to be. Such people should be accepted as they are and, if they wish to be, fully included in the life of the Church without further question.
My natural friends in ECUSA, however, are those who want to hold on to the historic, Biblical and catholic faith as it has been received through the ages and in every part of the world. Such a view sees the value of God's creation and regards human beings as made in God's image but it also takes seriously what is wrong with the world and ourselves. We need to be saved from the consequences of our own thoughts and deeds as well as from the "wrongness" of the world. People need not just acceptance and inclusion but conversion and transformation. The work of the Spirit is not formless, vague and without direction, as some "progressives" would have us believe. It is, rather, that of witnessing to Christ, making plain the words and works of Jesus to us and glorifying both Christ and the Father who sent him. The Spirit is continually forming us so that we attain to the fullness of life in Christ.
Such a view of the Christian faith and of the Church that holds it need not be backward-looking. It should be able to engage with the moral and spiritual issues of the day. It can, for instance, uphold fundamental human dignity in the debate about beginning and end of life issues. Because we are in God's image, from the earliest to the last moments, there is an inalienable dignity that cannot be taken away. The abortion debate, for example, is showing us that change as a result of increasing knowledge need not always be in the permissive direction. A properly Christian view of marriage is desperately needed for the sake of family stability and the bringing up of children. Single parents can be heroic in what they do but it is generally recognised that a two-parent family is best for children. The prophetic books in the Bible and the ministry of Jesus himself enable Christians to give sacrificially to charity, to be involved in caring for the poor, needy and ill and to struggle for justice, compassion and peace.
Because Anglicanism has been a broad Church, these two ways of understanding faith have somehow continued to co-exist under one umbrella. But now the issue is not just about opinion but practice. One school of thought is wanting to change Church teaching on marriage as being a lifelong union of a man and a woman for the sake of mutual affection, support and the bringing up of children in the best circumstances possible.
There is a serious breakdown of marriage discipline and, while I was there, the ECUSA bishops passed a resolution indicating their advocacy of same-sex marriage. This happened without any debate on the nature of marriage and how the Church contributed to a public understanding of such a vital social institution. Some in the Church are willing to abandon catholic order, which Anglicans have continued to maintain under pressure from other Churches, and also to revise requirements regarding life-style for those to be ordained deacon, priest or bishop. There are others who are compromising the Church's belief in the uniqueness of Christ's person and work in the cause of multi-faithism. Such views are affecting the integrity of Christian worship and sacramental discipline.
In a broad Church, comprehensiveness must be principled, otherwise there is the risk of disintegration. It is this risk which is becoming actual as more and more people argue that the Anglican Communion is just a loose federation with few, if any, firm doctrinal and moral moorings. In the past, Anglican comprehensiveness has been grounded in acknowledging the supremacy of the Bible, the authority of what Christians have always and everywhere believed, and of the Anglican formularies, such as the Book of Common Prayer, the Articles of Religion and the Ordinal, which bear witness to this faith. Such foundations are more and more dispensable these days, and it is this which has produced our present crisis.
What then is to be done? Unity for Christians is precious and not easily given up but we cannot have unity at the expense of truth. If the truth is seen so differently by the various groups, and there is little hope of convergence, let alone agreement, would it not be better to take different paths rather then pretending to be on the same one? I sincerely pray that it does not come to this and that, even in the face of such differences, there will be the determination to walk in the same way. But if not, separation may actually lead to less bitterness, a greater willingness to converse and, perhaps, even some scope for cooperation in areas where this is possible.
As Christians, it is our duty to pray for the unity of all those who call themselves followers of Jesus but unity does not come at any price and it as well to be prepared for the worst.
---The Rt. Rev Michael Nazir-Ali is Bishop of Rochester in England
| Poster | Thread |
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| mcb123 | Posted: 2006/6/25 19:00 Updated: 2006/6/25 19:04 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/10 From: St. James Anglican Church, OKC, OK Posts: 182 |
In other words: TEC/ECUSA/WICCA....BUH-BYE!!!
"Choose this day"....well, they've chosen, n'est-ce pas? As Gandolf would say to those remaining in TEC/ECUSA/WICCA: "RUN, YOU FOOLS!!!" ![]() |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/25 19:43 Updated: 2006/6/25 19:43 |
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Unity for Christians is precious and not easily given up but we cannot have unity at the expense of truth.
As Christians, it is our duty to pray for the unity of all those who call themselves followers of Jesus but unity does not come at any price and it as well to be prepared for the worst. Couldn't agree more.....however.....some of us have been prepared for the worst since 2003. But we're glad that leaders such as yourself have finally awakened to what we have known for years. |
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| rfwitt | Posted: 2006/6/25 20:45 Updated: 2006/6/25 20:45 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/12/18 From: Posts: 11 |
Here we see the results of the false teaching of the "clergy" and the "laity" distinction. For too long Christians in all the churches have left it up to the so-called experts (clergy). The mainline Protestant Churches are heading in the same direction. The RC church is slowly but surely moving in the same direction with its acceptance of the heretical teaching of "the two covenants" (The Jews don't need Christ - they already have the Father). It's about time the pew sitters woke up. Jesus said it, "You shall know the truth and it shall set you free". These "tin gods" have ruled to long it time for all Christians who love the Lord to say "NO, THIS APOSTACY WILL NOT STAND"
Richard................ |
| Compline | Posted: 2006/6/25 21:04 Updated: 2006/6/25 21:04 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/22 From: USA Posts: 63 |
The Bishop of Rochester is obviously very upset with the apostates of ECUSA. However I seriously doubt the ABC will do anything, good heavens he was appointed by Tony Blair after all.
Quote: 2 Corinthians 6:14 |
| AlMarsh | Posted: 2006/6/25 21:25 Updated: 2006/6/25 21:25 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/11 From: In exile Posts: 38 |
Compline, you seriously misunderstand the way in which our bishops are appointed in England. The prime minister can only appoint one of two candidates proposed by a Crown Nominations Commission composed of church members from our General Synod and from the diocese which is vacant.
I would not want a PM to have any say in the Commission - and they do not. The PM can not nominate. |
| FrGregACCA | Posted: 2006/6/25 21:49 Updated: 2006/6/25 21:49 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/24 From: Columbia, South Carolina Posts: 14 |
Quote:
We need to be saved from the consequences of our own thoughts and deeds as well as from the "wrongness" of the world. People need not just acceptance and inclusion but conversion and transformation. The work of the Spirit is not formless, vague and without direction, as some "progressives" would have us believe. It is, rather, that of witnessing to Christ, making plain the words and works of Jesus to us and glorifying both Christ and the Father who sent him. The Spirit is continually forming us so that we attain to the fullness of life in Christ. This is goes to the heart of what authentic Christian faith and practice is all about, and to deny it, as Hurricane Katharine, Louie, Susan, et. al., are doing, goes to the heart of the problem. M'shlama, Fr. Greg http://www.geocities.com/frgregacca/stfel.html |
| rossi | Posted: 2006/6/25 21:51 Updated: 2006/6/25 21:51 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/18 From: Redcar, England Posts: 639 |
AlMarsh you are wrong, if the PM don't accept
the tow names sent to him by the comission,he don't need to accept the names,he can ask for a new list,and you now that the archdruid is a New Labor Cronie |
| rossi | Posted: 2006/6/25 21:59 Updated: 2006/6/25 21:59 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/18 From: Redcar, England Posts: 639 |
AlMarsh,the two names sent to Tony Blair were
Willians and Nazir-Ali,and he chose the new age Willians. |
| Philippa | Posted: 2006/6/25 23:20 Updated: 2006/6/25 23:20 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/8/28 From: Posts: 489 |
Well said, Bishop Nazir-Ali.
I hope the usual arrogant revisionists don't come out and say that English is not your first language, either, so you have less of an understanding of things. I realize it is hard to determine tone in emails and posts, but I say the above with sarcasm and disgust and my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. Conservatives not "getting it" or not being properly "nuanced" are just more revisionist excuses and/or dodges-and-weaves. Pity that Mr. Blair did not choose this sensible, illustrious gentleman as AB of C. He obviously sees the big picture. I, too, understand the importance of unity, but not at all costs. Plus, I don't think unity need apply to those acting in a completely heretical, apostate, or non-doctrinal manner. If the radical sect of ECUSA had any integrity, it would have realized it was, in essence, coming up with a new religion or something very similar to Unitarianism or whatever is practiced by the Metropolitan Community Church--realizing this, and then breaking off and attempting a merger, would have been a more ethical act, rather than trying to negate and corrupt the entire Anglican Communion. The wild children here don't want a theological, ethical discussion of Scripture and sexuality at either the Lambeth level or a Communion-wide theological/doctrinal commission, because they truly know they have no leg to stand on, and they are the vast minority. They prefer cowardice and hiding under the "oh, but we're all autonomous provinces" skirt. It is my hope that time is running out on that pseudosolution, so God save us... In the One, Philippa |
| rossi | Posted: 2006/6/25 23:25 Updated: 2006/6/25 23:27 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/18 From: Redcar, England Posts: 639 |
The list of events of the diocese of New York
is announcing THE GAY PRIDE PARADE on june 25th. It says the diocese is registered to participate in this civic event of New York City. It also says that the diocese of Newark is organizing a street eucharist at the NY gay parade.Imagine sodomites wearing just pants receving the Holy Communion.This is the new TEC religion. |
| rossi | Posted: 2006/6/25 23:50 Updated: 2006/6/25 23:51 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/18 From: Redcar, England Posts: 639 |
Philippa English is a very plain language
anyone can learn it in just three/four months.English isn't my first language, I learned it in four months,Portugues (my first language),Castillan(what you call wrongly Spanish) and German are much more defficult to learn. Most of the primates of the Global South are from former British colonies,so English is the official language of their countries. Their education is all in English. |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/25 23:52 Updated: 2006/6/25 23:52 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Hey Archbish: Don't go lumping this not-liberal American in with the neocons!
If you insist on the conservative label, call me a Paleo-Con. Let the neocons keep their "Judeo-Christian" grotesquerie and their Israeli/Palestinian albatross. I'll content myself with Christ and Christ alone. |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/25 23:56 Updated: 2006/6/25 23:56 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Amen, especially about the "two covenenat" dodge.
Heavy sigh... |
| angseeker | Posted: 2006/6/26 1:48 Updated: 2006/6/26 1:48 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/1 From: Posts: 32 |
Here's a wonderful sermon on unity by a LCMS pastor. It is very much in line with the Bishop's statement.
http://www.holytrinitylcms.teamministry.net/sermon-info.do?view=0&grpId=4480&sermonId=1970 |
| Gander | Posted: 2006/6/26 3:04 Updated: 2006/6/26 3:04 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/31 From: Less than 1 Earth diameter away Posts: 452 |
Joe, I noticed that as well. I yearn to forgive the little bit of ignorance when it seems his communication arises out of a vast ocean of knowlege. Vast, but not complete.
Don |
| Compline | Posted: 2006/6/26 4:42 Updated: 2006/6/26 4:42 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/22 From: USA Posts: 63 |
Quote:
Joe of the Mountain Posted: 2006/6/25 23:52:26 A particularly odious term and of relatively recent date. In times past Christian values were spoken of in the United States but sometime perhaps around the 1970s this pernicious term became introduced in the media and of course the dear populace regurgitates whatever the media feeds them. Then there are those "Left Behind" people and their Scofield Reference Bibles, what a sordid history that is best left in the trash. |
| Voyager | Posted: 2006/6/26 6:21 Updated: 2006/6/26 6:21 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/30 From: 90 ± 10 Astronomical Units (AU). Posts: 1594 |
Matthew 10:14
King James Version (KJV) 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. |
| lorica | Posted: 2006/6/26 11:56 Updated: 2006/6/26 11:57 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/26 From: Posts: 2 |
rfwitt, may I respectfully clarify one comment in your post? You write: <i>The RC church is slowly but surely moving in the same direction with its acceptance of the heretical teaching of "the two covenants" (The Jews don't need Christ - they already have the Father).</i>
The RC Church "teaches" no such thing nor will it ever do so. The document to which you allude--"Reflections on Covenant and Mission"--was a draft document issued by a study commission commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. As such, the document had absolutely no binding force, no authority whatsoever. It was not a statement by the bishops, but a study commissioned under the bishops' aegis---period. Members of the commission included non-Catholics. As soon as it became public, "Reflections" was (rightly) condemned as being in direct contradiction to authoritative Catholic Teaching. The U.S. bishops got the message. They never went any farther with it. It never became the subject of a pastoral lettrer or of any other official document issued by the bishops themselves. The Catholic Church operates on the principle of subsidiarity: The higher members of the hierarchy "trump" the lower members. The individual bishop rules his own diocese, but he is accountable to the Church Universal: If he teaches rank heresy, then the higher authority, the pope, can intervene. Well, there have been problems in the U.S. episcopate (now in the process of being resolved, as retiring liberal bishops are replaced by conservative ones--a definite, discernible positive trend). But please remember: Rome trumps the U.S. episcopate. The Magisterium, not the USCCB, is the source of authoritative Catholic Teaching binding on all Catholics. And, on the subject of the unique salvific mission of Christ and of the necessity of Christ for salvation, the Magisterium has spoken clearly, authoritatively, and definitively. Its answer is encapsulated in the Catechism and expressed with special force in the document "Dominus Iesus." Both resources are readily available online. I have no desire to shill for Catholicism; I respect the fact that this is an Anglican board. However, when my Church's teaching is misrepresented, I hope y'all will give me leave to correct the misrepresentation. Confusion re facts and details serves no good purpose. Thanks very much! And God bless.... Lorica, ex-Episcopalian |
| Wilhelm | Posted: 2006/6/26 15:05 Updated: 2006/6/26 15:05 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/19 From: The Colonies Posts: 172 |
Why have things been permitted to become so complicated? The church's business is well known to most of us. Any worship not centered around the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is flum-diddle. Resolutions that are a matter of State Department and National Affairs considered by the HOBs are totally inappropropriate and best left to the experts. Finally, it is beyond me that someone without a track record of leading one's own parish(s) could even be considered to be a bishop in this church, let alone the "grand mufti" of all bishops!
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| rfwitt | Posted: 2006/6/26 15:24 Updated: 2006/6/26 15:24 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/12/18 From: Posts: 11 |
Lorica,
Perhaps you need to investigate more fully what is going on. Do a search on Cardinal Kasper at Boston College. Back in 2002 when this so-called reflection was issued there was not a peep from any Bishop, Cardinal or the previous Pope that this so-called reflection was heretical. It was the traditional Catholics who blew the whistle on this teaching not the official church teachers. In the local (Charlotte) dioscese newspaper after this document came out the headline read, "The Catholic Church no longer believes in super-seccessionism " (the Old Covenant being replaced and finding its fullfillment in the New Covenant). The Bishop evidentlly seems to have approved since to was never a rebuttal. The genesis for this teaching was in a Vatican II document called "Nostra Aetea: (I think that'a the right spelling). The Catholic Cathicism makes reference to the same scripture (Romans 11: 28-29) as the document, "Reflections on Covenant and Mission". My brother who is an RC Priest who went to a conserative seminary in the 90's was taught this doctrine. When he questioned his professor he was met with "are you anti-semitic?" Case closed. The former Pope was active behind the scene in pushing this teaching and that's where Cardinal Kasper, his appointee comes in. I know that conservative and traditional Catholics don't believe this, but maybe you ought to inquire of your bishop where he stands on this issue. With Christian charity, Richard............. |
| rfwitt | Posted: 2006/6/26 16:42 Updated: 2006/6/26 16:42 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/12/18 From: Posts: 11 |
A fuller response to Lorica,
Lorica you state: “As soon as it became public, "Reflections" was (rightly) condemned as being in direct contradiction to authoritative Catholic Teaching. The U.S. bishops got the message. They never went any farther with it. It never became the subject of a pastoral lettrer or of any other official document issued by the bishops themselves.” Response: Number one: This document was on the official website of the USCCB for a period of time. The document was drawn up with the collaboration of Catholic and Jewish scholars. Cardinal Keeler headed up this group Number two: You state: “Reflections" was (rightly) condemned as being in direct contradiction to authoritative Catholic Teaching” Can you tell me which officials condemned this teaching? How many Bishops, Cardinals, etc. Give me some names. Number Three: Here are some quotes from this document which you seem to imply was done by some group in a corner without any official blessing. Note the teaching of the former Pope. Was he incorrectly quoted??? ================== In August of 2002, the Office of Communications United States Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a document entitled:, "Reflections On Covenant And Mission ". In this document the following teaching is put forward - that the Old Covenant (as we Christians refer to it) is irrevocable and that Jews can be saved under the conditions of that covenant. This is the actual quote from the document:, "Therefore, the Church believes that Judaism, i.e. the faithful response of the Jewish people to God's irrevocable covenant, is salvific for them, because God is faithful to his promises." The conclusion that is drawn from this statement, leads the Catholics that were involved in creating this document, to state, and I quote:, " Citing the growing respect for the Jewish tradition that has unfolded since the Second Vatican Council, and the deepening Catholic appreciation of the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people, the Catholic portion of the Reflections says that "campaigns that target Jews for conversion to Christianity are no longer theologically acceptable in the Catholic Church." "Reflections On Covenant And Mission" The document goes on to state: " At the present moment in this process of renewal, the subjects of covenant and mission have come to the forefront. Nostra Aetate initiated this thinking by citing Romans 11:28-29 and describing the Jewish people as "very dear to God, for the sake of the patriarchs, since God does not take back the gifts he bestowed or the choice he made." John Paul II has explicitly taught that Jews are: "i" "the people of God of the Old Covenant, never revoked by God, "ii "the present-day people of the covenant concluded with Moses, "iii and "partners in a covenant of eternal love which was never revoked." ====================== Here are some comments from Cardinal Kasper (spokesmen for the Vatican on inter-religious affairs) from: A lecture delivered at the Centre for the Study of Jewish-Christian Relations in Cambridge, United Kingdom in which the president of the Pontifical Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews discusses various aspects of covenantal theology. A selection of Cardinal Kaspers comments: “Nevertheless, according to the Apostle, the Jews still remain most dear to God because of their fathers, for He does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues (cf. Rom 11:28-29). In company with the prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and ‘serve him with one accord’ (Zeph 3:9)” (Nostra Aetate, n. 4). Pope John Paul II above all has contributed decisively towards achieving the breakthrough with this declaration, which can only be defined as historic, as well as to expanding and intensifying it. He has often repeated the term of the “unabrogated covenant” and made it the foundation of the redefinition of the relationship between the Catholic Church and Judaism.[28] Thus “Nostra Aetate” opened a new chapter in the predominantly dark history of the relationship between Jews and Christians. It represents a new beginning which has in the meantime found broad resonance in many declarations and official statements at Bishops’ Conferences, Synods and Ecclesial Commissions.[29] In the meantime the term “unabrogated covenant” has become the starting point and foundation of a renewed theology of Judaism within both Catholic and Protestant theology.[30] In place of the treatises “Contra Judaeis” we now find treatises “De Judaeis” or “Pro Judaeis”. For more recent theology Judaism is not only sociologically but also theologically a current entity. God’s covenant with Israel has not been overtaken and replaced by the new covenant. God has not abrogated his covenant with this people; he has not rejected or forgotten his people. God is still inclined towards these his people in love and faithfulness, in mercy, judgement and forgiveness; he is with them and among them in the difficult hours and times of their history above all. As a member of his people, each Jew continues to stand beneath the promise. ============================= Your response is the normal sectarian apologetic response. This is the same mindset that afflict all denominations. Defend the fort against all. Where has the Roman Catholic Church renounced this heretical teaching? The answer is no where. As one Catholic official stated, “The Catholic Church is a large ship - you have to turn it very slowly”. |
| larryl | Posted: 2006/6/26 16:43 Updated: 2006/6/26 16:43 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/26 From: Posts: 1 |
if truth is more important-then why did nine[or more] orhodox TEC bishops vote for Katherine Jefferts Schori SOLELY to "subvert",unsettle and show the bankruptcy of the TEC and the Communion?
Bishops should always vote in good conscience-never in a mean-spirited 'in your face' manner to usurp the process. Is this following Jesus? Their votes was used as a instrument to cause even futher division and not in unity,truth nor love. Shame on them. Their actions shows me that the Angelican community is morally bankrupt and full of contradictions. I'm meeting with my spititual director and considering going back to the Roman Catholic Church. The nine or more bishops actions are disgraceful. Truth and unity can never arise out of such hatred,contempt,and unholiness. |
| Wanderer | Posted: 2006/6/26 16:59 Updated: 2006/6/26 16:59 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/20 From: Posts: 2 |
Richard, you are absolutely right about what is going on in the Roman Catholic Church. Theoretically it is the Pope who has the ultimate teaching authority in the Church, but unfortunately the American bishops, many of whom are ultra-liberal, are running the show here in the United States. There is much being taught that is not orthodox. And it is indeed the traditionalists among both clergy and laity who have been trying to persuade Rome to do something. Rome doesn't seem to be doing much. And institutions like Boston College, which you mentioned, are notorious for their lack of loyalty to the teachings of the Church. Georgetown is another former stronghold of Catholicism that is now ultra-liberal. And whenever Rome does issue some sort of directive, the American bishops "take it under advisement" and take several years to consider it. This has been happening since Vatican II, which opened the floodgates. The Council was intended to reform, not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Lorica, I was a Roman Catholic. I was educated in Catholic schools and colleges. I always kept informed of what was going on. I was very active in the parishes I belonged to. We have many friends who are traditionalists and are also very informed. Believe me, the American church is very independent of Rome. I don't why Rome has let things get this bad. Now it's a little late to try to get the horse back in the barn. I may have said in the only other post I've put on here so far that one of the last straws for me in the RC church was when a group of teenaged girls in ballet outfits came twirling and leaping down the center aisle right after the Gospel. I don't see worship as entertainment. The Vatican rules for celebrating the liturgy clearly state that unless dancing as worship is a part of the indigenous culture, it is not to be used at Mass. Of course, as with everything else, the American priests and bishops do what they like. I camre to the Anglicans for the second time after having returned to the RC church and stayed for 20 years, hoping to see a return to orthodoxy. Instead I saw things like the appointment of Cardinal law to a position of honoe at a church in Rome - the Pope's own parish church. Law is the slimeball who made it possible for countless pedophiles and/or homosexuals to abuse heaven knows how many young boys and teens. Law knew about the abuse and quietly shifted the offenders to other dioceses or other parishes. In my view he is far gguiltier than the priests, who were bad enough. And Pope John Paul is even guiltier for appointing the man to a position of honor after he left the Boston archdiocese under a cloud. He should be in a monastery on his knees for the rest of his life in reparation to God and the people he hurt. No, Lorica, the RC church no longer holds the moral authority you think it does. And unfortunately the American RC's are just as New Age as others, if not more so. I too feel that truth is mor important than unity, and that we will be better off with fewer numbers and true faith than with large numbers and New Age drivel. Helen |
| Compline | Posted: 2006/6/26 17:43 Updated: 2006/6/26 17:43 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/22 From: USA Posts: 63 |
I have read, with some interest, the remarks by our Roman Catholic friend, and other posters.
Forty years ago, the American popular magazine LOOK had an article about Vatican II and the changes therein which were due to the efforts of some Jewish people who felt that traditional RC theology was, "anti-semitic". One can search the web for it: How The Jews Changed Catholic Thinking. By Joseph Roddy, Look Senior Editor. LOOK Magazine, January 25, 1966, Volume 30, No. 2. |
| Wilhelm | Posted: 2006/6/26 18:32 Updated: 2006/6/26 18:33 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/19 From: The Colonies Posts: 172 |
It's suggestive, yet if you spoke with a rabbi or the mainstream in a synogogue, I wouldn't think they'd have much interest in meddling, unless invited by a crazed assortment.....
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| ZachD | Posted: 2006/6/26 18:39 Updated: 2006/6/26 18:45 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1782 |
The grass is not greener across the Tiber, or any place else, for that matter.
Thanks, Helen, and others. We need to petition God for His desires and plans for us! I do not believe that this tradition in all of its collective history, wisdom, and witness is in vain. The question for me is, "Where will God raise us up?" "What sign will His faithful children be called to, in witness to a post-modern heretical world? Scary and exhillirating times ahead! |
| lorica | Posted: 2006/6/26 20:19 Updated: 2006/6/26 20:22 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/26 From: Posts: 2 |
Helen, please do not put words in my mouth. I am not trying to sell anyone on Catholicism. I am merely defending my Church against misrepresentation.
The fact remains that "Reflections on Covenant and Mission" is NOT an official, authoritative document of the Catholic Church, nor does it represent official, authoritative Catholic Teaching. For official Catholic Teaching, see the Catechism. That's what it's for. I have been Catholic most of my life--except for a 10-year hiatus as an Episcopalian. I know as much about Catholicism "on the ground" as you do, if not more so. And I reject your representation of the U.S. Catholic Church as gross caricature and distortion. I have no desire to bash your tradition. Please do not bash mine. I have no desire to score points off of TEC. Please return the courtesy. Thank you. My only concern is to refute distortions and misrepresentations of Catholicism. If you'd rather swim the Bosphorus than the Tiber, more power to you. If you prefer the Anglican Continuum to Rome, that's nice, too--it's your choice. But if you misrepresent my Church by claiming that a non-doctrinal document issued by an episcopal commission is official Church Teaching, then I will respond. Thank you! :) Lorica P.S. BTW--I am rather disturbed by what appears to be an anti-semitic tinge to a few of the comments in this thread. So Vatican II was a Jewish conspiracy? Hoo-boy. ![]() |
| Compline | Posted: 2006/6/26 20:34 Updated: 2006/6/26 20:34 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/22 From: USA Posts: 63 |
LOOK magazine, as was its counterpart, LIFE magazine, was among the most popular weekly magazines in America in its time.
Think of Newsweek and Time magazines today. This may be the very first time that I have heard a mainstream popular magazine referred to as "anti-semitic" and frankly I was appalled by the smears against VOL posters. The article by LOOK Senior Editor may be read here: How The Jews Changed Catholic Thinking Let the truth stand on its own merit. Smearing one's fellow Christians is not very commendable behavior I might suggest. |
| roncriss | Posted: 2006/6/26 20:56 Updated: 2006/6/26 20:56 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/28 From: Posts: 9 |
I am astounded to see people here worrying about Catholic bishops' opinions of Jews and liturgical quibbles. For God's sake, don't you know your church has an openly homosexual bishop and has just elected a presiding bishop who is pro-gay, calls Jesus "our mother" and, in case you didn't notice it, sorta looks like a girl? If it wasn't for that deep voice and the butch haircut I'd really have my suspicions.
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| Truthseekr | Posted: 2006/6/26 22:12 Updated: 2006/6/26 22:12 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/14 From: terra firma ................ ( just a pilgrim passing thru ) Posts: 784 |
roncriss,
please ck your inbox, left bottom side of screen i sent u an PM private message truthseekr |
| ZachD | Posted: 2006/6/27 0:42 Updated: 2006/6/27 0:42 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1782 |
This is getting weirder by the minute.
This person is relatively unknown, yes? With no parish ministry to her credit? ASTOUNDING! |
| gregory | Posted: 2006/6/27 13:39 Updated: 2006/6/27 13:39 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4423 |
![]() Click here for more info Editorial Reviews From Publishers Weekly American Catholics divided over the future direction of their church have managed to agree on one thing in recent months: much reform is needed in the wake of the clergy sexual-abuse scandal. Weigel, a theologian and papal biographer (Witness to Hope: The Biography of John Paul II), outlines the shape he thinks it should take in this incisive analysis. More than a problem of clerical misbehavior, he writes, the present crisis is rooted in the church's failure to be faithful to its own teachings. He traces the current woes to a "culture of dissent" that he says was allowed to flourish after the reforming Second Vatican Council (1962-1965), creating an internal schism in the church. After the "truce of 1968," which allowed church leaders to publicly oppose Humanae Vitae, the papal encyclical on artificial contraception, without fear of reprisal, he says it became clear that the Vatican would not support bishops who wanted to maintain discipline among priests and theologians. Weigel lays much of the blame for the sexual-abuse scandal at the feet of the American bishops, whom he chides for acting more like corporate managers than apostles. But his criticism also extends to Rome, where he points to deficiencies in canon law and the Vatican's communications strategy. As expected, Weigel dismisses such reforms as abolishing priestly celibacy and ordaining women priests, but he counters with practical solutions, including changes in the way bishops are selected. This book should stimulate discussion among both progressive and conservative Catholics. Copyright 2002 Reed Business Information, Inc. |
| Philippa | Posted: 2006/6/27 17:47 Updated: 2006/6/27 17:47 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/8/28 From: Posts: 489 |
Rossi, I am well aware of this. If you read my post more carefully, you will note that what I am saying is that nasty revisionists use the fact that English is not a primate's or person's first language as a reason why said individuals do not "get" the gay agenda or supposedly understand something. You usually see this phenomenon when the Primate or person is right, or has said or stated something that revisionists don't want to hear.
I am surely NOT of this revisionist opinion, and I have always firmly believed it to be a garbage argument, as most Primates and those for whom English is a second, third, fourth, or eighth language speak and understand better English than me(and English is my first). In Christ, Philippa |
| MichaelA | Posted: 2006/6/27 22:24 Updated: 2006/6/27 22:24 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
Lorica, your protestations do not convince.
I have experienced on this list how Roman Catholics will take anything that they choose in Protestantism grossly out of context, in arguing against it. For example, I exchanged several posts with a would-be Roman Catholic who insisted that the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons were Protestant denominations, and thereby thought he had "proved" that Protestants disagreed on fundamental issues. All we are seeing here is the usual process - there is a great deal of dissent in the Roman Church. The dissent occurs at lower levels - at diocese or archdiocese level, or through episcopal commissions etc. Since these are rarely ratified by Rome, they can be disclaimed by any Catholic apologist who is embarrassed by them, yet often they continue being put into practice without Rome taking any step to deal with them. That is the key point, well understood by Roman churchmen - the careful employment of *lack* of action is a far more potent weapon than speaking plainly. Its a very clever way of having your cake and eating it too. Claim to be the infallible and inerrant Holy Church, whilst at the same time allowing bishops in America, South America, France, Switzerland etc to do their own thing. But tromp on anyone like Marcel Lefebvre who actually takes Roman tradition seriously. Oh well, the joy of politics will continue, a fun game for all. Regards Michael |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/27 22:46 Updated: 2006/6/27 22:46 |
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Dear Lorica
Stand your ground. There are many on this web site that will try to bash Rome at the first opportunity they get, even to the point of suggesting Rome has something to do with ECUSA demise. As they say a good offense is the best defense. God Bless BHTech |
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| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/28 18:29 Updated: 2006/6/28 18:29 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Amen.
Pax, Voyager. |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/28 18:37 Updated: 2006/6/28 18:37 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
"The Culture of Critique" by Kevin Macdonald, professor of psychology at Cal State Long Beach.
Reading this book kept me awake at night in shock, disillusionment, and anger. |
| roncriss | Posted: 2006/6/28 21:30 Updated: 2006/6/28 21:30 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/28 From: Posts: 9 |
Michael,
I was hesitant to repsond to your post, but couldn't resist. Do you really think that constitutes a response? Do you think an uneducated Catholic who doesn't understand that Mormons and JWs are not Protestant represents Catholicism? What do you think that proves? You think the fact that there is dissent among Catholics at lower levels is something to point out? What about openly gay Episcopal bishops, priestesses and presiding bishops? Obviously you don't understand Catholic teaching on infallibility. It doesn't extend to every bishop or every priest. What you should be addressing is the legitimacy Catholic doctrine as it contrasts with that of the Episcopal Church: "The Catholic Church has never felt that priestly or episcopal ordination can be validly conferred on women. A few heretical sects in the first centuries, especially Gnostic ones, entrusted the exercise of the priestly ministry to women: this innovation was immediately noted and condemned by the Fathers, who considered it as unacceptable in the Church. It is true that in the writings of the Fathers one will find the undeniable influence of prejudices unfavourable to women, but nevertheless, it should be noted that these prejudices had hardly any influence on their pastoral activity, and still less on their spiritual direction. But over and above considerations inspired by the spirit of the times, one finds expressed—especially in the canonical documents of the Antiochian and Egyptian traditions—this essential reason, namely, that by calling only men to the priestly Order and ministry in its true sense, the Church intends to remain faithful to the type of ordained ministry willed by the Lord Jesus Christ and carefully maintained by the Apostles." (Declaration on the Admission of Women to the Ministerial Priesthood) 2357 "Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex....Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved." (Catechism of the Catholic Church) I would be happy to discuss this with you or any other person at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catholicbible/ Pax et Bonum, Ron |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/28 22:14 Updated: 2006/6/28 22:14 |
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Thanks for the link Ron. I also sent you a private message.
BHTech |
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| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/28 23:00 Updated: 2006/6/28 23:00 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
"We are the Knights Who Say 'Anti-Semitism'!
"And you must cut down the tallest tree in this wood with ... a ... "Kafelta fish!" ![]() |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/28 23:05 Updated: 2006/6/28 23:05 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Dearest Brother BH,
That happens because, as it says at the top of the web page, this is an "Anglican" website. You must be confusing it with www.ewtn.org/poaching_episcopalians.html JOTM, Protestant in a Protestant Site |
| gotc86 | Posted: 2006/6/28 23:09 Updated: 2006/6/28 23:09 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/4/20 From: Posts: 15 |
Bishop Duncan comes through:
http://www.pgh.anglican.org/news/local/pittsburghaltoversight Some may think it's not going far enough, but Bishop Duncan has taken each step carefully and prayerfully. |
| DTaylor | Posted: 2006/6/29 2:20 Updated: 2006/6/29 2:20 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/28 From: Orange County New York Posts: 68 |
I'm listening to bishop katherine on NPR right now. they discussed how Archbishop Rowen is talking about a tierd a "Communion" and bishop katherine is talking about a "covenant"
She is also stating that the changes that Rowen is talking about won't take place this week, this month or even this year! oh boy..... |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/29 2:43 Updated: 2006/6/29 2:43 |
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Thanks for the tip and link Joe. Seriously though you should take it in sometimes. That is www.ewtn.com. It's good.
God Bless BHTech |
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| MichaelA | Posted: 2006/6/29 3:27 Updated: 2006/6/29 3:27 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
roncriss, you appear to be addressing a somewhat different question to what I was dealing with. Lorica was complaining about his beliefs being misunderstood and replaced with a "man of straw". I was pointing out that I had seen Roman Catholics doing the same thing to protestants.
1. "Do you think an uneducated Catholic who doesn't understand that Mormons and JWs are not Protestant represents Catholicism? What do you think that proves?" The person involved was not uneducated, just unaware about this issue. Even an educated Catholic can say strange things at times (as can a Protestant). I was merely pointing out that Lorica should not consider that having his beliefs misunderstood is a problem faced only by Roman Catholics. 2. Nor have I ever suggested that Catholic teaching on infallibility extends to "every bishop or every priest". I don't know how good my understanding of it is, but certainly I was aware of that much. Infallibility is fundamentally bound up with the nature of the bishop in the RC church and is fundamentally exercised in congress with all bishops. In this respect the essential point about every prelate, right up to the Pope himself, is that they are *bishops*. Everything else follows from that. But I digress... I was pointing out that dissent even on quite fundamental doctrines can exist in a very real form in the RC Church, even though unacknowledged. I was also pointing out that there have been times in the recent past where RC prelates could have moved to quash certain practices or beliefs at a local level, and failed to do so. Whether or not one agrees with the doctrine of infallibility, it does not answer all questions. I would be the first to acknowledge that this sort of issue also applies to every other church. For example: one of the weaknesses of the historical Confessing Protestant churches in recent years has been our over-reliance on statements of assent to confessions of faith. An extreme Liberal can genuinely assent to e..g the Westminster Confession, yet mean something entirely different to what I would regard as the plain meaning of the words. 3. "What you should be addressing is the legitimacy Catholic doctrine as it contrasts with that of the Episcopal Church:" That is true to some extent, but I don't think it is the whole story. Much of ECUSA's problem has been that while official doctrine been openly challenged only recently, yet in reality it has been challenged "behind the scenes" for many decades. Some faithful Christians have been aware of this over the years, but did not move decisively to deal with it. I strongly approve of the Roman Catholic official doctrine. Being a calvinist (in a broad sense) I would arrive at the same conclusions by somewhat different means, but we all agree that what Scripture teaches and church tradition has followed over the last 2000 years could not be more clear. Regards Michael |
| roncriss | Posted: 2006/6/30 3:32 Updated: 2006/6/30 3:32 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/28 From: Posts: 9 |
Michael,
You would find that I am a knowledgable Catholic and can distinguish between Protestants, Anabaptists, Mormons and JWs. You wrote: "I don't know how good my understanding of it is, but certainly I was aware of that much. Infallibility is fundamentally bound up with the nature of the bishop in the RC church and is fundamentally exercised in congress with all bishops. In this respect the essential point about every prelate, right up to the Pope himself, is that they are *bishops*. Everything else follows from that. But I digress..." This demonstrates a nearly total ignorance of the Catholic doctrine on infallibility. The important point you should grasp is that it does not extend to the individual actions of bishops, or even the pope. All men are sinners. That says nothing about the validity of Catholic teaching, the more important issue. You wrote: "I was also pointing out that there have been times in the recent past where RC prelates could have moved to quash certain practices or beliefs at a local level, and failed to do so. Whether or not one agrees with the doctrine of infallibility, it does not answer all questions." This subject has nothing to do with infallibility. You really should study what the Church really teaches: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm Catholic teaching has always considered homosexuality gravely disordered and sinful. Catholic teaching also states that a priest must always be a male. The Magisterum hasn't changed teaching on this in 2000 years. Unlike in the Episcopal Church, dissidents are unable to change these doctrines. Catholic bishops who ordain women priests are excommunicated. Protestantism started by rejecting the authority of the pope and claiming the Bible as sole authority. It has now come to the point where even that authority is denied. Each person becomes her own "infallible" authority and the result is division after division. "The Roman Catholic Church is the only church that is neither a national church, nor a State church, nor a sect founded by a man; it is the only church in the world which maintains and asserts the principle of universal social unity against individual egoism and national particularism; it is the only church which maintains and asserts the freedom of the spiritual power against the absolutism of the State; in a word, it is the only church against which the gates of hell have not prevailed." (Vladimir Soloviev) I wish you all the best, but I think its pretty much over. Ron |
| MichaelA | Posted: 2006/6/30 4:40 Updated: 2006/6/30 5:10 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
Ron, again, you are reading things into my post that simply are not there. I never suggested that an individual RC bishop possessed infallibility, according to RC dogma. My point was that it was their status as bishops that is important in conferring authority. Nor did I say that the Pope speaks infallibly.
1. "This subject has nothing to do with infallibility. You really should study what the Church really teaches:" I never said that it did. YOU should really read posts properly before replying to them. I made the point, and I will make it again, that Rome has often allowed bizarre or unchristian practices to flourish in various parts of its domain. But as soon as someone complains, it says: "Oh that's not the official doctrine of the church, so its not really happening". A classic example of this was earlier on this thread. Helen told of her actual experiences in the Roman Catholic church. Lorica's response was: "I have been Catholic most of my life--except for a 10-year hiatus as an Episcopalian. I know as much about Catholicism "on the ground" as you do, if not more so. And I reject your representation of the U.S. Catholic Church as gross caricature and distortion." Lorica can say that his experience of the RC church has been different to Helen's - I have no problem with that. But to characterise her eye-witness account of her experiences as "gross caricature and distortion" simply amounts to calling her a liar. To say that not all experiences of RC Church were as bad as hers is valid, but to try to deny that she experienced what she in fact experienced is not valid, nor is it honest. 2. "Catholic teaching has always considered homosexuality gravely disordered and sinful. All faithful Christian churches believe that. Rome is not special. 3. "Catholic teaching also states that a priest must always be a male. The Magisterum hasn't changed teaching on this in 2000 years. Unlike in the Episcopal Church, dissidents are unable to change these doctrines. Catholic bishops who ordain women priests are excommunicated." Guess what? Scripture hasn't changed teaching on this in 2000 years either. That is why we don't need a Magisterium. The magisterium also eventually decided that priests must be celibate, which is clearly against scripture, AND a very dangerous practice into the bargain. Don't go trying to excuse your Roman cultic practices on the basis that you get a couple of other things right. 4. "Protestantism started by rejecting the authority of the pope and claiming the Bible as sole authority. It has now come to the point where even that authority is denied. Each person becomes her own "infallible" authority and the result is division after division." Utter rubbish. What we see in ECUSA is the inevitable result of rejecting the authority of scripture. It soon leads to apostasy. that is why ECUSA is where it is now: it tried to make the authority of the church essential to the interpretation of scripture. The Roman Catholic church has also tried over the centuries to substitute itself as equal to or parallel to scripture. As a result it has also gone off the rails. Sure, its kept itself *officially* away from the homosexual apostasy, but its gone overboard in plenty of other things. Saying that each person in protestantism is their own authority is just Roman Catholic spin. Its what they want to believe. Every christian has scripture and the Holy Spirit. That beats every other man-made authority, such as the See of Rome. 4. "The Roman Catholic Church is the only church that is neither a national church, nor a State church, nor a sect founded by a man; it is the only church in the world which maintains and asserts the principle of universal social unity against individual egoism and national particularism; it is the only church which maintains and asserts the freedom of the spiritual power against the absolutism of the State; in a word, it is the only church against which the gates of hell have not prevailed." (Vladimir Soloviev)" Very amusing. This is what Rome doesn't do, whereas every true christian church does do these things. 5. "I wish you all the best, but I think its pretty much over." Rubbish. You don't wish us all the best at all, nor do we need Rome's good wishes. It can preside over its ramshackle empire with all its varying standards. The rest of Christendom will get on with preaching the word of God. Regards Michael |
| roncriss | Posted: 2006/7/1 4:39 Updated: 2006/7/1 4:39 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/28 From: Posts: 9 |
Michael,
Most of your responses don't require a response. But you showed a certain ignorance of Scripture by the following statement: "The magisterium also eventually decided that priests must be celibate, which is clearly against scripture, AND a very dangerous practice into the bargain. Don't go trying to excuse your Roman cultic practices on the basis that you get a couple of other things right." I wonder, if celibacy is so dangerous (you share an opinion with Madonna!), why Our Lord, His Mother, John the Baptist and St. Paul all survived it? Here is the Authoritative opinion. I will quote the KJV for your benefit: Matthew 19 10His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. 11But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. 12For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. And St Paul confirms the Lord's perspective: 1 Corinthians 7 7For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. 8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. 9But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. 10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. So many dangerous rules! [And before you make the predictable response: a man shouldn't become a Latin Rite priest if he hasn't GOT the gift. BTW, that is a rule in our Latin Rite churches, but most Eastern Rite or Byzantine Catholic priests may be married when ordained. Also many of our priests who are converts from Protestant sects are married.] Then there are these fellows: Revelation 14 3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Do you suppose maybe they died from too much dangerous celibacy? And I really do wish you the best. Peace and all Good, Ron |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/7/2 7:44 Updated: 2006/7/2 7:44 |
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Folks….these two stories are breaking over in England now. I thought everyone needs to read this. If you think APO is going anywhere, guess again. However, there are some prophetic statements about where the CofE is heading. These are both from the London Telegraph dateline today July 2, 2006. The first story was by Jonathan Wynee-Jones. Entitled “Liberals May Split From Cantebury over Homosexuals.” Here’s a clip…..
“Liberal clergy in Britain are preparing to turn to America’s Anglican bishops for leadership in a move that could produce “civil war” and destroy the Church of England. The Sunday Telegraph has learned.” “They are considering the drastic action after the Archbishop of Cantebury, Rowan Williams. Delivered a strong warning to liberals that they could be marginalized from the Anglican Church……” “Among the ideas discussed were the twinning of English and American parishes, and inviting more clergy from the U.S. to come to England on placements.” “There is also the radical possibility of an American bishop “overseeing” a liberal parish in this country, whose members feel marginalized by the imposition of traditional beliefs.” Now if any of you think this will stiffen the resolve of Rowan….guess again. Here is another article in the same paper datelined today July 2 as well. This article was posted by Mary Wakefield….here’s a clip….. “The sun was already high over Church Hill in Hertfordshire at 10:30 on Thursday morning as I followed Christina Rees through the garden, up to her front door.” “Christina is American by birth, but a member of our General Synod and chairwoman of Women and the Church (WATCH), which struggles to free the Church of England from patriarchal prejudice.” “And within the hour…she’d explained the Anglican Communion to me, unraveled all its competeing theologies and made it appear suddenly quite clear that despite his recent nod in the direction of the conservatives, the Archbishop of Cantebury will eventually go with the liberal flow….” Christina said “”You want to know what the headlines will be on July 10?” Yes, please. “They’ll all say the same thing: CofE votes for woman bishops!” So after women bishops in the CofE, you think openly gay clergy is next? “Let’s get real,” said Christina. “Look how many of them there are already. It’s just not official yet.” So is Rowan Williams thinking along these lines too? Christina just smiled. And maybe she’s right. It is true that in my part of London, a nice lady priest and her girlfriend run their parish side by side, and in the next door church, a gay priest and his partner do the same. If their spiritual leader thought they were making the Creator cross, surely he’d have put his foot down by now. And here the reporter is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. ROWAN WILLIAMS WILL NOT SEE THE BREAKUP OF THE COMMUNION FOR ANYTHING. HE WILL DELAY APO IF NOT OUTRIGHT REFUSE IT. EVEN IF HE DOES HE WILL NOT CLAMP DOWN ON THE HERETICS IN ENGLAND OR THE US. IT IS BEYOND HIGH TIME FOR YOU ALL TO REALIZE THAT THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND IS NOT IN OUR FUTURE. THE COMMUNION IS BEING BROKEN BY GOD HIMSELF AND IT’S NEW HEADQUARTERS WILL BE EVENTUALLY IN ALEXANDRIA EGYPT UNDER THE AFRICANS. DO YOURSELF THE FAVOR AND BREAK FROM YOUR OLD ESTABLISHED MINDSET…..ONCE AGAIN THE COMMUNION AS WE KNOW IT IS DEAD….DEAD…..DEAD AND SO IS THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND. |
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| gregory | Posted: 2006/7/2 13:23 Updated: 2006/7/2 13:23 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4423 |
A response from another place rootbranch's post is posted;
Poster: AlMarsh Posted: 2006/7/2 9:39:04 Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers. General Synod will decide, not the Sunday Telegraph or the somewhat confused Ms Rees. And it will be influenced by how the Anglican Communion shapes up: which is about to become a much more conservative shape. Which i agree one must understand the source and that one can be lead into helping spread false info... FEAR = False Evidence Appearing Real |















Conservatives not "getting it" or not being properly "nuanced" are just more revisionist excuses and/or dodges-and-weaves. 









