LIBERALS RESPOND
An Open Letter to my Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered
by V. Gene Robinson
June 24, 2006
Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
From V. Gene Robinson, Bishop in the Church of God in a blessed place called New Hampshire:
Many of you have been writing to me, in the aftermath of General Convention, to ask what I am thinking, now that the Convention has called upon the Church to deny consent to the consecration of partnered people as bishops. Frankly, like all of you, my thinking is all over the map. But here is where I am, only a few days later.
First, let's give ourselves some time to recover. In the first few moments of having the breath knocked out of us, we struggle just to breathe, unable to think about much of anything other than getting some oxygen back into our lungs.
We have been dealt a blow that has knocked the wind out of us. Let's be kind to ourselves, breathe a little, before we try to move on. Nothing has to be decided or done in the next few hours or days. Let's catch our breath, remembering that breath is a powerful image of the Holy Spirit in the Old and New Testaments.
Let's allow ourselves to be re-infused with that Holy Spirit which has never abandoned us, no matter what the Church does or doesn't do. Let's remember what DID happen at the General Convention.
Faithful gay and lesbian Episcopalians showed up and witnessed to the power of Almighty God working in and through their lives. You would have been SO PROUD of Integrity, Claiming the Blessing, the Episcopal Women's Caucus, The Witness, and countless other groups speaking on our behalf. Susan Russell, Michael Hopkins, Carol Cole Flanagan, Elizabeth Kaeton, Bonnie Perry and others too numerous to mention put their hearts, souls and every waking moment into representing ALL of us so very well and so faithfully.
We owe them such a great debt. Faithful gay and lesbian Episcopalians were EVERYWHERE, witnessing to God's saving grace in their lives - being so joyful and filled with God's Spirit, there was no denying God's love in their lives.
We gathered at Trinity Church to celebrate the eucharist as the people of God. Not only were the nave and balconies filled, but the basement and sacristy as well, with gay and straight alike proclaiming God's love for ALL of God's children. It was a glimpse of heaven, and of the Church as it ought to be. Let's not forget that we have been given a foretaste of the heavenly banquet where the marginalized are given an honored seat at the table.
The Episcopal Church declared its opposition to any constitutional amendment - federal or state - which would short circuit gay and lesbian couples seeking the civil right of having their relationships legally acknowledged.
On Sunday, we elected a Presiding Bishop who is committed to the full inclusion of gay and lesbian people into the life and work and leadership of this Church. The Spirit was palpable, once again in Trinity Church, as the election balloting unfolded before our very eyes, pushing forward to the election of the first woman as Primate and Presiding Bishop.
If indeed, as I have often said, this fight is really about the end of patriarchy, then that patriarchy was dealt an awesome blow in +Katharine's election. When the primates next meet, it will be a new day, and at the table will be a representative of the world's majority - women - incarnate in our primate. Thanks be to God for that! You go, girl!
To our joy, the House of Deputies refused to give in to threats from within and without our Church, and decisively rejected the call to withhold consent from partnered people elected to the Episcopate. We thought that was the end of it. But alas, it was not.
+Frank Griswold - who, let us remember, has been a sometimes reluctant, but ever faithful champion for us, and who has paid a great price for presiding at my consecration - brought back the "moratorium" resolution in a heavy-handed and inappropriate way (in my humble opinion). He seemed absolutely intent on getting this resolution through as a way of getting us all to the Lambeth table.
I don't know whether or not our Presiding Bishop-elect was coerced or merely persuaded to join in this appeal, but it is clear to me that her support for such an action provided the push needed to convince the Deputies to adopt a resolution more prohibitive than the one they had rejected the day before.
Gay and lesbian deputies, many in tears, not to mention our straight allies, rose to the microphones to pledge their support of our new primate as she goes off to represent us in unfriendly places, to "give her what she needs" to continue the conversation.
The scene of gay and lesbian deputies, willing to fall on their own swords for the presumed good of the Church, voting for this resolution against their own self-interest was an act of self-sacrifice that I won't soon forget. Keeping us in conversation with the Anglican Communion was the goal - for which the price was declaring gay and lesbian people unfit material for the episcopate. Only time will tell whether or not even that was accomplished.
Within minutes - yes, MINUTES - the conservatives both within our Church and in Africa declared our sacrificial action woefully inadequate. It felt like a kick in the teeth to the ones who had gotten down on their knees to submit to the will of the whole, even though the price of doing so was excruciating.
Such a quick, obviously premeditated and patently cruel reaction from the Right can be seen only as the violent and unchristian act it was. So what now? It is too soon to strategize, too soon to know what it all means. But here are a few things I DO know:
The Spirit IS working in the Church. We cannot claim that the Spirit is working in the Church only when we get our way. We must continue to believe that that Spirit is working even when the Church takes an action which hurts us, when it seems to take us in the wrong direction.
We are in this struggle for the long haul, and so is the Spirit. We cannot fathom at the moment how this turn of events serves justice. But God will not be mocked, and God will be our salvation. Let's not forget that. We are STILL loved beyond our wildest imagining. That was true the day before Convention; it is still true.
This vote does not change that. Just because the Church lost its courage, just because the Church was willing to sacrifice US for access to a conversation with Anglicans around the world (which they hardly seem ready to engage in themselves), it does NOT mean that God has changed. If you listen carefully, God is STILL saying to God's lgbt children, "You are my beloved. In you I am well pleased."
This vote may say a lot about the Episcopal Church, but it says NOTHING about you and me as gay and lesbian children of God. Blessed Martin Luther King once said, "Pontius Pilate's sin was not that he didn't KNOW what was right, but that he lacked the courage to STAND UP for right." Pray for the Church.
We are in this for the long haul. OF COURSE there are going to be bumps along the road, perhaps a few places where the road has washed out completely. The journey toward justice is neither a straight line nor easy.
Just ask our brothers and sisters who are people of color, and still experiencing the pain of racism. Just ask our sisters who still pay the price of sexism and misogyny, both inside and outside the Church. We follow a savior who dealt with plenty of setbacks and disappointments - not to mention being "done in" by his friends. We are in good company here. But we won't last for the long haul without Jesus! Let's keep saying our prayers and listening to the One who knows and shares our burden.
We'll be watching.
Now that the Anglican Communion and the majority of Convention have gotten what they asked for, let's see if anything changes. Will the rest of the Communion finally be willing to engage in the listening process promised for the last 30 years? Will anything be done in the domestic dioceses of this Church to move us along, or will this only be seen as a "blessed" respite from this debate?
Will the Network dioceses and parishes give up their blatant drive to split this church apart and join us in our efforts to be reconciled, or will they only cry "not enough" and demand more? We'll be watching - and we'll want the "middle" to give us an accounting of what this Convention vote got them. And we'll be asking, "Was it worth declaring us less than children of God, marked as Christ's own forever?"
We are not defeated, for God is still with us. Let's remember that at its best, the Church has pushed the "pause" button, not the "stop" or "reverse"buttons.
If we continue to make our witness, and if those for whom this sacrifice was made continue to threaten and make one-sided demands, the Episcopal Church will see its mistake and find its prophetic voice again. Maybe it will even repent of the harm done to us in this faithless and fearful act. Time will tell.
In the meantime, we are not defeated, nor will we be paralyzed by this sad and woeful action. Dwelling on what happened and why will not serve us or the Church well. We need to turn away from yesterday and focus on tomorrow. We know how all this is going to end.
It is not arrogant to say that we believe we know how all this is going to turn out. It will end with the full inclusion of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered people in the life and ministry and leadership of the Church. It will take a long time.
Some or all of us may not live to see it. But happen it will! In a strange way, I think the conservatives know it too. All we're arguing about now is timing. It will be enough for each of us to play her/his own part. Each of us can provide a pair of shoulders for someone else to stand on, just as surely as we stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before us.
This is a never-ending march toward justice for ALL, and NO ONE is going to be left behind. In the end, the reign of God will come. And oh what a privilege it is for each of us to play a small part.
We are worthy of God's love - NOT because of anything we have done, but because God has MADE us worthy to stand before God through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. As I said at Convention, the Gay Agenda is JESUS! If we keep that ever before us, in the end all will be well.
I love, respect, appreciate and honor each of you more than you could ever know. Please keep me in your prayers, as you will be in mine. And to God be the glory!
+Gene
*****
"Peace! Be Still!": Marching Orders from General Convention
By Neil Elliott
June 23, 2006
"Who is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?" (Mk 4:35-41)
Even for those of us who were not at our church's General Convention, who could only listen and read the experience of our lay and clergy deputies and our bishops at second hand, this has been a stormy week.
At first, our diocesan deputies wrote of being overwhelmed by tears of joy and surprise when the House of Bishops -- which some characterized as a group of "old white men" -- elected a woman as Presiding Bishop. Some observers hailed the election as a clear sign that the Spirit was at work (though they didn't venture a similar hypothesis regarding the elections that had put all those "old white men" in office).
But then a "great windstorm arose." After the House of Deputies turned down on Tuesday a resolution that would have urged the church to refrain from electing or consecrating bishops whose "manner of life poses a challenge to the wider church," the House of Bishops passed just such a resolution, the now-notorious "B033."
Efforts to qualify or tone down or limit the effect of the resolution were defeated, at the urging of the newly elected Presiding Bishop who advanced the curious argument that taking what she acknowledged was a profoundly regressive "two steps backward" was the best way.
She then asked for permission to address the House of Deputies and made a similar impassioned plea, asking the deputies to take the extraordinary step of setting aside their own rules and taking up again a matter they had already decisively settled.
The result, some observers rather optimistically now declare, will be a costly but Christlike "renunciation" necessary in order to bring about reconciliation in the wider Anglican Communion. (There is another view: already a minority of bishops have signed a statement of dissent objecting both to the procedure and to the effect of the resolution.)
What's at Issue?
When both Houses of Convention declared an indefinite moratorium on the election or consecration of bishops whose "manner of life poses a challenge to the wider church," they apparently did not think they were talking about bishops who happened to be women -- although in the 1970s, some circles in the American church considered women priests not just a "challenge," but an "abomination."
Nor, evidently, were our bishops and deputies talking about bishops who had been divorced and remarried more than once. And quite clearly, they were not talking about bishops whose actions might signal to gay men and lesbian women that they were second-class members of the church.
They were talking about bishops like Gene Robinson, meaning not caring, charismatic pastors, but gays living in committed relationships. And so they "renounced" -- on behalf of the people who had elected them as deputies or as bishops -- the right of New Hampshire, or of any diocese, to elect another bishop like that.
Now some of those same bishops and deputies urge us to accept these results calmly, to exercise prayerful restraint, to accept this "renunciation" made in our name as a way toward peace.
The difference between this situation and that described in the "Stilling of the Storm" account in Mark 4 is that Jesus did not simply pronounce the storm stilled; Jesus stilled the storm.
We, on the other hand, continue to sail rough seas; the waves beneath our Episcopal boat are getting very high; and already some gay men and lesbian women have been washed overboard, or have jumped off what has become for them an inhospitable craft.
A lot of solemn and soothing talk about the importance of making this "sacrifice" for the sake of "peace" won't bring them back, and it won't quell the nausea rising in the throats of some people still "on board."
Presenting this action as a necessary "sacrifice" sends a clear message, though it's not the ones our deputies meant to send: that the sensibilities of one group -- including some of the most recalcitrantly conservative Anglicans in the world -- are far more important for the future of the Episcopal Church's "peace" than the sensibilities of another group, gays and lesbians, who are expendable.
This action declares that our Church can do nothing but acquiesce in the face of a scolding from the Primates.
"Sacrifice" and "Renunciation"
Already some observers have described this "renunciation" as following Jesus's way to the cross.
But renunciation is not something any of us can do for others. When our bishops "renounce" the means for churches to elect partnered gays and lesbians to ministries and privileges that they themselves continue to hold, it's hard to see how this is recognizably the way of the cross.
By now -- decades after feminist, womanist, and Queer theologians began to ask relentlessly critical questions about the rhetoric at work in our Church -- one might have hoped such language would readily be seen for what it is: mystification for the systemic patriarchalism and heterosexism that pervade our Church and that we cannot admit to ourselves.
Early after the release of the Windsor Report, some bishops advocated a moratorium not just on consecrating gay bishops in committed relationships, but on consecrating any bishops, as a way of responding to Windsor without compromising what many felt were clear and important theological and ecclesiastical principles.
That shared offer of renunciation has now apparently gone by the wayside. Discerning the Spirit. We've been told repeatedly that the Spirit was at work in the actions of General Convention.
But it is always the work of the church to discern the work of the Spirit, not simply to assent when we're told the Spirit has authorized a particular action.
It's simply bad theology to imagine that the Spirit is more present when red-robed bishops gather than when laypeople gather for prayerful deliberation. It's simply bad theology to imagine that the Spirit is more at work when someone holding our church's highest office makes an impassioned plea than when our duly elected deputies reach a decision through careful consideration.
If any part of the House of Deputies' action was a deference to episcopal authority rather than the exercise of the solemn charge to which deputies had been elected, we can certainly recognize an old and familiar Episcopalian habit: but it's simply bad theology to mistake habituated deference (if that was involved) for the work of the Spirit.
On one point, at least, I think our bishops are right. We are being called in this hour to a peculiar exercise of Christian renunciation. We must renounce the false calm of patriarchal order, even if it is the dominant model that saturates our scriptures, and even if it gives soothing familiarity to the rhythms and gestures of our courtly liturgical style.
We must renounce the comfort and familiarity of heterosexist privilege, even if it pervades our tradition, and even if it allows "us" to live in the cocoon of blithe illusion that "we" have the choice of welcoming "them" "in" to our assemblies. We who have a strong sense of belonging in the Episcopal church -- of having stronger stomachs and "sea legs" as the boat rolls and pitches beneath us -- must ask what right we have to feel safe and secure in the midst of a storm that gives such distress to others around us.
Perhaps we have become complacent with the easy language of "welcome." Perhaps the Spirit is calling us to share in the alienation, fear, and betrayal felt by those who have experienced this Convention as profoundly unwelcoming.
--The Rev. Neil Elliott is a priest in the Episcopal Diocese of Minnesota, a New Testament scholar, and member of the Episcopal Peace Fellowship in Minneapolis, Minn. He may be reached by email at NeilElliott@msn.com.
| Poster | Thread |
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| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/25 16:46 Updated: 2006/6/25 16:46 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
This is one of the most selfish, self-centered, narcisisstic, pathetic, fetid, vapid, empty, whining, indulgent, rolling-in-the-mud-of-the-pig-stye crap I've ever read.
And I sat through an entire Womyn's Studies class in 1992 so that's saying a lot. Vickie Jean, you are a freak. And a loser at that. No wonder the only job you could find is to be a pseudo-bishop in a fringe cult of a once proud church. BLAH! |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/25 16:50 Updated: 2006/6/25 16:53 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Quote:
If indeed, as I have often said, this fight is really about the end of patriarchy, then that patriarchy was dealt an awesome blow in +Katharine's election. When the primates next meet, it will be a new day, and at the table will be a representative of the world's majority - women - incarnate in our primate. Thanks be to God for that! You go, girl! Vicki Jean, you certainly have done your personal best to destroy the patricarchy. While it is possible for self-hating males to amputate their members, it is something of a bummer that there is no known way to remove the Y Chromosome. Heavy sigh, Vicki Jean. You're stuck being a man whether you like it or not. |
| Philippa | Posted: 2006/6/25 16:52 Updated: 2006/6/25 16:56 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/8/28 From: Posts: 491 |
It's hard to tell if these are the words of a supposedly victimized whiner or simply the anti-Christ.
I will never regard anyone who repeatedly chooses sodomy as ANY kind of spiritual authority. Sowing every acre in New Hampshire with salt might not be a bad idea. Time to go take a shower and spend some time on my own knees... In the One, Philippa |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/25 17:02 Updated: 2006/6/25 17:02 |
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What is the state of LEAC's petition?
Time for the orthodox layity to unite and take back our church which was Hi-Jacked in the 70's Force out the Godless, heritical, and perverted elements and wash the church clean in the blood of Christ, who the revisionists don't recognise anymore. |
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| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/25 17:03 Updated: 2006/6/25 17:03 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
What your'e reading Philippa does not rise to the level of anti-christ; it is too absurd for the Evil One.
Instead, you have read the result of living in a hermetically sealed bubble of self-indulgent, self-congratulatory inbred world of the "gay lifestyle". These persons have convinced themselves, through incessant repetition and other techniques that bear a remarkable resemblance to "vain repetitions", that their bizarre fantasies are, in fact, reality. This can only be achieved when all external feedback is careful excluded from their lives. This feat is made possible by our remarkable "patricarchical" and "heterosexist" medical profession, our US economy that supports such parasites, and finally on the reservoir of undeserved goodwill as provided by your typically gutless Epsicopalian layman. Yes, these creatures are of our own making, the distilled ooze of the primordial slime we slough off in the pews of ECUSick, collected, boiled-down and cultivated into a decomposing mass of pure goop that cannot see outside its own Petri dish. Want to know how to eradicate such goop from our world? Flush it. Stop pretending to be tolerant when you're really feeling social pressure to shut up; complain when they act-out their warped sexuality in public; fire them from your workplace and deal with their lawsuits later; refuse to allow them in the Boy Scouts, your schools, or your cocktail parties. Fight fire with the Holy Water of your own Baptism in which you promised to fight the Devil, the wicked lusts of the flesh, and continue Christ's servant until your death. Yes, that is what those who were truly baptized promised. And it's time to keep your word. JotM. |
| ICXCNIKA | Posted: 2006/6/25 17:04 Updated: 2006/6/25 17:05 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/18 From: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 82 |
Joe of the Mountain,
Thanks for the helpful 'Cliff Notes' on this letter...it saved me from wasting my time in reading such a long, suredly heretical pontification. ![]() ...next article! |
| Traktaryan | Posted: 2006/6/25 17:45 Updated: 2006/6/25 17:45 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/7/16 From: Posts: 764 |
Off the scale. There is no way to respond to this. It's as if the writers of these two items and their intended audiences live in some other world that bears no resemblance at all to the one I know.
What can be said is that if the Archbishop of Canterbury and the CAPA Primates read this, it will only serve to expedite the excommunication of TEC. |
| goonole | Posted: 2006/6/25 18:10 Updated: 2006/6/25 18:10 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/26 From: Posts: 40 |
Robinson has clearly shown who he is....he is their god and he will continue in his lifestyle and promote it as good forever, regardless of the casualties of his evil choices.
He praises the "faithful gay and lesbian Episcopalians"......but somehow leaves out the bisexuals and trangendered. What gives Gene? Hmmmmmmm. I thought this was An Open Letter to my Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered. Are you not proud of the "faithful bisexual and transgendered Episcopalians"? (By thy way, how are bisexuals honored anyways.....they aren't in committed monogamous relationsips, yet you include them in everything?) That's all he's ever talked about is how committed they all are. I agree with you JOTM, nothing but self centered garbage. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/25 18:21 Updated: 2006/6/25 18:21 |
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What do you expect from a servant of the Father of Lies.
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/25 18:38 Updated: 2006/6/25 18:38 |
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VGR said "The Spirit IS working in the Church"
The father of lies and his spirits are working in YOUR church. Not the Holy Spirit as we understand it. |
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/25 18:46 Updated: 2006/6/25 18:46 |
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VGR said "We are worthy of God's love - NOT because of anything we have done, but because God has MADE us worthy to stand before God through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. As I said at Convention, the Gay Agenda is JESUS! If we keep that ever before us, in the end all will be well."
RUBBISH, RUBBISH, RUBBISH and MORE RUBBISH You lie to yourself, others and to God! Jesus said to the woman, go and sin no more. That includes all of us. May the Lord help you VGR. |
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| Cennydd | Posted: 2006/6/25 19:45 Updated: 2006/6/25 19:48 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 7352 |
Vickie Gene, if you think for one second that we of the Network are scheming to split the Episcopal Church, I've got news for you: You and your friends in "Claiming the Blessing," "Integrity," "Via Media," and other lesbigay front organizations are DEAD WRONG....and you KNOW it! Do you honestly think we're deaf, dumb and blind and ignorant? Don't you think we've been able to see clear through your subterfuge, your obfuscatory Episcobabble, and your "woe is me....they're picking on me again attitudes?" Go stuff a sock in it, bishop!
No, we're NOT scheming to tear the Church apart....you and Louie Crew, Susan Russell and company have done a very good job of that all by yourselves! And what's even worse, you and your New Age heretic supporters in the House of Bishops did it DELIBERATELY with malice aforethought! Cennydd |
| quissum | Posted: 2006/6/25 20:16 Updated: 2006/6/25 20:16 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/18 From: Posts: 344 |
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)
When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.” Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch. (Matthew 15:10-14) |
| djmalone | Posted: 2006/6/25 20:28 Updated: 2006/6/25 20:28 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/12 From: Tulsa, Ok. Posts: 8 |
What exactly is Via Media?
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| Cennydd | Posted: 2006/6/25 21:24 Updated: 2006/6/25 21:25 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 7352 |
Djmalone, Via Media is supposedly an official Episcopal organization whose purpose is to steer the middle way between the extremes in the Church...."moderates" would be the best way to describe them. In reality, they have morphed/been hijacked/"used" by the LBGT crowd and become a lesbigay support organization, and therefore they are misusing the name, which orginally was meant to illustrate the "Middle Way" in Episcopal thinking.
That's my best description. Maybe someone else can describe them better than I. Cennydd |
| bcwright | Posted: 2006/6/25 21:26 Updated: 2006/6/25 22:05 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/7/4 From: Posts: 558 |
I actually do think that +VGR has some very good points about the resolution that finally passed. The fact is that that resolution was carefully crafted to say little or nothing, whilst appearing to say everything - therefore it is guaranteed to offend everyone except those who are just trying to paper over all of the issues and get everyone to "play nice" with each other. In a word, it was cowardly.
The resolution is reminiscent of nothing so much as Jesus' words to the Church in Laodicea in Rev. 3:14-15, or of Dante's aphorism that "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality." I will agree that his reaction that he and the rest of the gay lobby are somehow the "victims" of this toothless and vacuous wonder is more than a bit much. |
| bcwright | Posted: 2006/6/25 21:39 Updated: 2006/6/25 22:07 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/7/4 From: Posts: 558 |
(sorry for the double-post, I hit "refresh" when I wasn't getting anything back).
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| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/25 23:27 Updated: 2006/6/25 23:27 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
My pleasure, Icxcnika!
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| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/25 23:34 Updated: 2006/6/25 23:34 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Elizabeth I described her settlement of the Catholic thing as the "via media" ("middle path" in Latin) between the Roman Catholicism of her cousin Bloody Mary and the Reformed Protestantism of Cranmer et al. The Church of England was to be BOTH catholic (traditional) AND reformed (purged of man-made ritual and superstition).
The "Via Media" crowd appropriated this name much as Cennydd describes for their own attempt to "broker in" the homosexual agenda. How? Because Via Media is an honored term and honored accomplishment in the history of Anglicanism (aka "The Elizabethan Settlement"). It is the raison d'etre for the CoE ... so the homosex lobby uses it in the hope that its history of legitimacy will "rub off" on their own agenda, thus grease the skids for acceptance of homosexual behaviors by otherwise very proper Anglicans. It is, in a word, insideous. |
| RussReed | Posted: 2006/6/25 23:39 Updated: 2006/6/25 23:39 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/5/30 From: Posts: 2 |
Read Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13.
God does love us all, but He hates the sin, and according to Leviticus, homosexuality is not an accepted alternate life style nor is it blessed or going to be blessed by our Lord. Mr. Robinson and his group have sadly deluded themselves. According to the Bible, those who claim to be doing the Lord's work but lead others astray are in for an especially bad time in damnation. I pray that he and his cronieswake up before it is everlastingly too late. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/26 0:10 Updated: 2006/6/26 0:10 |
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In a discussion I got into with another parisioner at my church, on the biblical reffercenses to homosexuality in the new testament, he commented that the references were talking about the old testament as if the OT wasn't valid. This is how the progressives indoctrination works. This is a man that is older than me (61) and a lifelong Episcopalian.
In a hurry to go to go to the meeting about the GC, which was beginning, I didn't think untill later that I should have mentioned that OT references in the NT were to teach a lesson of moral values. Oh well can't win um all.. ![]() |
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| MarkP | Posted: 2006/6/26 2:10 Updated: 2006/6/26 2:11 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/11/11 From: Diocese of El Camino Real Posts: 320 |
"In a discussion I got into with another parisioner at my church, on the biblical reffercenses to homosexuality in the new testament, he commented that the references were talking about the old testament as if the OT wasn't valid." Marlin
It's also "fun" to watch their faces when you mention that Jesus quoted extensively (only) from the OT. For example, Jesus paraphased: "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:17 NIV It would be nice if liberals would stop talking once-in-a-while and read their Bibles. Oh, but reading the Bible wouldn't support their political agenda, would it? |
| rossi | Posted: 2006/6/26 8:40 Updated: 2006/6/26 8:41 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/18 From: Redcar, England Posts: 639 |
Here in England Gene's Brethren started
to rise against the Archbishop of Canter bury, today The Guardian(the official Bible of the liberal Christians in UK) has a article writen by a leading liberal scholar, criticizing the Willians response to the GC 06, saying that he has left his old fellows liberals to join forces with the Anglicans of the antigay gang that is lead by the Africans primates. |
| daleadams | Posted: 2006/6/26 12:51 Updated: 2006/6/26 12:51 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/2/1 From: Dixon, Calif. Posts: 975 |
Wow, a first!
Joe of the Mountain posts *twice* on the same thread and I *agree* emphatically with both! And not just agree with Joe, but all the other posters as well! Dale Adams |
| BeckyB | Posted: 2006/6/26 13:40 Updated: 2006/6/26 13:40 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/22 From: Posts: 5 |
So the liberals aren't happy, the conservatives aren't happy, and the via media folks are still oblivious to it all?
Reading the homosexual bp's letter tells me that the Episcopal church has surpassed the Unitarians to be the premiere "gay church." Well, if nothing else, there should be great choir and drama productions. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/26 15:42 Updated: 2006/6/26 15:42 |
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Quote:
It's also "fun" to watch their faces when you mention that Jesus quoted extensively (only) from the OT. For example, Jesus paraphased: "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:17 NIV Some people are so indoctrinated (brainwashed) with the progressive doctrine they can't see anything else. You can only try to point out the error of their ways, you can't make them accept it. |
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| MarkP | Posted: 2006/6/26 19:21 Updated: 2006/6/26 19:23 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/11/11 From: Diocese of El Camino Real Posts: 320 |
...maybe I missed something. VGR thinks they lost? What about the issue on public rites for same-sex blessings? I can't find any reference in B033. I think there's going to be alot more crying and falling on swords--what a spectacle!
It seems like the bishop thing miffed VGR the most. ...a little power thing maybe? ...not exactly servant leadership! ...and I love the way they turned on FTG and refered to him as their "reluctant..champion" Happily, VGR avoided the term "puppet champion". ...and what about those bisexuals? I thought this ordeal was all about "NO CHOICE" for the same sex behavior. By definition, bisexuals can relate sexually to either men or women--what exactly is the Church's moral guidance where there's a choice in sexual behavior? I guess it's still "Anything goes!" OH, Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore. I said it once and I'll say it again, VGR is the gift that just keeps on giving. |
| goonole | Posted: 2006/6/27 0:32 Updated: 2006/6/27 0:32 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/26 From: Posts: 40 |
Ah, Mark.....thank-you for seeing exactly what I have. Notice that VGR leaves out part of who he addresses his letter to
"Faithful gay and lesbian Episcopalians showed up and witnessed to the power of Almighty God working in and through their lives." So, is he ditching the bisexuals and transgendered or were there not any "faithful" ones there. Why won't someone ask Susan Russell or VGR or the Queen why they lump the bisexuals in but then never mention them? It's only the gays and lesbians when it comes to press time. You're right though, it's anything goes. 2009 should have a resolution about polygamy, NAMBLA and incest. Oh, and one about age of consent. That will be the next things to talk about now that this convention is over. |
| bcwright | Posted: 2006/6/27 7:37 Updated: 2006/6/27 7:39 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/7/4 From: Posts: 558 |
...maybe I missed something. VGR thinks they lost? What about the issue on public rites for same-sex blessings? I can't find any reference in B033.
Everybody lost - the Left, the Orthodox, the Center, the rest of the Communion - just in different ways. B033 was an attempt to slip through something that might actually pass both houses, maintain some semblance of internal peace, and yet still have some chance of preserving relations with the greater Communion. It appears likely to be destined to fail on both of the latter counts - not least because so many of the other motions adopted were straight out of the Left's agenda, so this one will be viewed both within and without as an anomoly, both by the liberals and by the conservatives. |
| ahauber | Posted: 2006/6/27 16:58 Updated: 2006/6/27 16:58 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/3/5 From: Georgia Posts: 150 |
RussReed posted - I pray that he and his cronieswake up before it is everlastingly too late.
The problem with this is that Mr/Mrs Robinson dosen't believe that anyone is going to Hell (except the unrepentant orthodox, of course) and that he and all his friends are going to Heaven and, apparently, that Jesus wasted His time by going to the cross. He is in such gross and utter darkness that it will be miraculous on biblical proportions if he is ever turned. Andy Dante - "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality." |
























