Exclusives : PENNSYLVANIA: No Refuge For Anglicans Seeking Unity With Rome
NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME
By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
SCRANTON, PA: (6/5/2006)--Episcopalians in the U.S. and Anglicans worldwide got cold comfort from a Roman Catholic Prelate who told them that his church would not now, nor in the foreseeable future, offer an Anglican Use Rite with an Anglican liturgy, having Anglican Rite bishops with a parallel jurisdiction with Peter for Anglicans who want to remain in their church.
The Rev. William H. Stetson, Secretary to the Ecclesiastical Delegate for the Pastoral Provision, told some 150 Episcopalians and many who had converted to the Roman Catholic Church that churches like the Traditional Anglican Communion and other Anglo-Catholic churches could apply to Rome, but there were no guarantees that his church would accept them, except on Rome's terms. "I am not sure Rome will gather them in, in one uniate. It is not possible that CEC (Charismatic Episcopal Church) or the TAC (Traditional Anglican Communion) can have their own Pastoral Provisions."
"Clearly we were disappointed, but after further conversations during the Conference we understand that our task is to take the initiative towards the Holy See to seek some creative type of expansion of the Pastoral Provision. I remain hopeful of a way forward," said TAC Bishop David Moyer, rector of the Anglo-Catholic parish of Church of the Good Shepherd in Rosemont, PA. who attended a two-day conference on the use of the Pastoral Provision for Anglicans who have crossed the Tiber to Rome.
"As fully orthodox Anglican Catholics, we pray that the Holy See will recognize us for who we are," he told VirtueOnline.
But for Episcopalians and Anglicans who have swum the Tiber it was good news. The Pastoral Provision brought about by Pope John Paul II in 1980 making special pastoral provision for married priests and laity who had formerly belonged to the Episcopal Church, was working well, reported Fr. Stetson.
"The decision provided for the ordination of married, former priests coming from the Episcopal Church, and for the creation of personal worship communities which would be allowed to retain elements of the Anglican liturgy," said the Opus Dei priest.
Stetson said the 1980 decision by Pope John Paul II came as a result of two separate Episcopal groups: The American Church Union, headed by the late Canon Albert Dubois; and the Society of the Holy Cross, a priestly fraternity lead by Fr. James Parker. Stetson said the 1976 decision to ordain women motivated the orthodox Episcopalians. "They sought to retain the Anglican liturgical heritage," he said.
In 1978 the Conference of Catholic Bishops met and while they rejected any kind of "ritual diocese" approved the ordination of married men. "The Conference, at its May meeting in 1978 voted affirmatively and so informed the Holy See," said Stetson. In 1980 John Paul II gave his assent.
Bernard Cardinal Law was directed to develop a proposal containing elements for the pastoral provision for submission to the Holy See and to oversee its implementation.
Stetson noted that because of the present "confusion in the Episcopal Church" the number of inquiries from catholic bishops on behalf of Episcopal clergyman, "had dramatically risen."
The Opus Dei priest said that on the question of the liturgy, the 1980 decision specified that "the group retain certain elements of the Anglican liturgy; these are to be determined by a commission of the Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship in 1983."
The work of this commission resulted in the approval of the Book of Divine Worship which is now used in parishes and worship communities of former Episcopalians. Seven parishes are presently using it in different areas of the U.S.
Stetson highlighted two different situations. When asked the difference between being an Episcopal priest and a Catholic priest, one former Episcopal priest answered, "about twenty thousand dollars." Secondly Episcopal priests generally have less than 200 in the average parish; in the Catholic Church parishes of over a thousand are common, he said. He noted that with the demands made on married priests "led to serious repercussions on married life. The pastoral care of priests' wives is a new topic of the Catholic diocesan bishop."
The priest said that married former Episcopal priest would not lead to married Catholic priests in the future. "It is clear in everyone's mind that this is not a proving ground for optional celibacy in the catholic Church. In fact, the special challenges of a married clergy show the value of the norm of celibacy for the sake of the kingdom in the Western Church."
"The growing crisis of theological and moral authority both in the Episcopal Church and in other Protestant denominations ins likely to result in a new wave of priests, ministers and lay people seeking the sure home of the Catholic Church. "They will bring to the Catholic Church the sound Christian traditions that have sustained them since the Protestant Reformation: a love for Sacred Scripture; joy in singing to the Lord; eagerness to spread the Word of God; and from the Anglicans a long and rich history of English in the liturgy."
"The Pastoral Provision has served till now as the harbinger of this new springtime for Christianity in the United States," he said.
The 2006 Anglican Use conference drew priests nationally and internationally, with people from every Anglican Use Rite in the country said Eric Bergman, Director of St. Thomas More Society of St. Clare's Church in Scranton.
There are over 100 married Roman Catholic priests in the U.S. drawn from both the Episcopal Church and other denominations, said Fr. Stetson who has been involved for 26 years with the Pastoral Provision.
Stetson said he was enormously impressed with the 2004 Plano conference where he had been invited as an unofficial observer by Pittsburgh Bishop Robert Duncan, and noted the tremendous applause then Cardinal Ratzinger's letter was received which praised the orthodox wing of the Episcopal Church for its faithfulness.
Stetson said the future of the Pastoral Provision was not an ecclesiastical, administrative, liturgical or cultural one. "It is of the essence a theological and a spiritual one. It is in our desires to bring together that all may truly be one in that communion of truth...that comes from the sacraments of the church...guiding, leading and pushing it forward and reaching beyond sociology to the truth of Jesus Christ."
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| Poster | Thread |
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| Smoke | Posted: 2006/6/7 2:51 Updated: 2006/6/7 2:51 |
Just can't stay away   Joined: 2006/2/27 From: Diocese of Dallas Posts: 96 |
 Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROMEDear Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus:
We have lost too many good priests to Rome. Father James Parker among them who says he is still shunned by the majority of the Roman priests because he is married. Seems like they (Rome) forget that for the first 1500 years of the Church, all priests could marry. An organization of 10,000 priests stand ready to serve the Church, however, they choose a wife during their priesthood while in Rome, while we can come in with a ready-made family. And we wonder why morale in so poor in the RC Church among priests? Double standard? Blessings, Smoke+ P.S. Please pray for me as I attend "Genital Convention" starting Sunday. |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2006/6/7 3:30 Updated: 2006/6/7 3:32 |
Home away from home   Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 7348 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME I for one am not about to "swim the Tiber." Now or any other time, and I am going to continue to do battle for what is right, and serve God as an orthodox Anglican! I think that Christianity as expressed by orthodox Anglicanism is worth fighting for!
Cennydd |
| MarkP | Posted: 2006/6/7 4:27 Updated: 2006/6/7 4:29 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2004/11/11 From: Diocese of El Camino Real Posts: 320 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME "...but there were no guarantees that his church would accept them, except on Rome's terms."
Rome only on their own terms? Quelle surprise! |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/7 6:53 Updated: 2006/6/7 6:53 |
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Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME "Smoke gets in your eyes" - sniff, sigh, ohhhhh, ahhhhh - such poignantly melancholic sweet sorrow.............
You can betcha that genitalia will be foremost in the minds of the revisionists during the convention - How would one otherwise account for their stupidity? Blessings and Peace be with you, Giovanni |
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| lkwells | Posted: 2006/6/7 10:59 Updated: 2006/6/7 10:59 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/2/19 From: Posts: 607 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME If anyone wishes or desires to become a Roman Catholic, there is already a procedure in place, readily available in every RC parish in the world. This is called the RCIA program. Just call the parish office and enroll. They will be happy to help you.
The Holy See has already made a generous provision for Episcopalians who cannot quite give up their accustomed liturgical dialect. To attempt to negotiate one's way into the RC Church, setting up terms of affiliation in the manner contemplated by Bishop Moyers, is unconscionable arrogance, showing scant knowledge of what Rome calls "Holy Obedience." I wonder how Fr Moyers would cope with a liberal RC bishop. There are quite a few around, I hear. |
| Anggrl | Posted: 2006/6/7 11:12 Updated: 2006/6/7 11:12 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/30 From: Posts: 176 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME This is typical RCC "stuff". They say they want unity--so long as its their way. I'm not about to swim the Tiber. No way, no how. We will be transferring our membership to the local REC in another few weeks. Yeah, and the celibate priesthood thing is a hoot. They won't allow their priests to marry but they're so desperate for priests that they'll gladly accept married priests/pastors from other denoms. What a joke.
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/7 11:17 Updated: 2006/6/7 11:17 |
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Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME BuaHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
You weren't expecting that, were you? |
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| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/7 11:39 Updated: 2006/6/7 11:41 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME It is a sad spectacle to see so-called "Episcopalian" or "Anglican" clerics beg recognition from the Church of Rome. More than that, beg admittance but on their own terms.
At least the CoR knows the difference between "Anglican" and "Roman"! Ha! Listen up catholiphiles, there has always been a way to hook up with the rump of the Holy Roman Empire: CONVERT. And if you want to CONVERT why do you care if you keep some silly liturgy or not? Isn't the important thing Rome's claim to authenticity??? BLAH. This would be like an a man calling his ex-wife, whom he divorced for a floozy some years earlier... Hello sweetheart -- it's me. "Who?" Me. I was wrong. I still love you and I want us to be together again. "Huh? Who did you say you are?" Ralph! "Oh. Ralph?! It's been 500 years!" Yeah, I know. Tempus fugit and all that... Can I come back now? "I don't know... I'll think about it." And I want to bring my new ex-wife with me, because I'm used to her after all these years and it wouldn't be the same without her. Do you mind? CLICK. Sad. Truly sad. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. |
| Gideon_FL | Posted: 2006/6/7 12:25 Updated: 2006/6/7 12:25 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/8/25 From: SW FL Posts: 169 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Fr. Wells,
Thanks for mentioning the RCIA program; I was not familiar with it. I found the following site very helpful: http://www.ecatholic2000.com/rcia/rcia.shtml If anyone has any personal experience with this program, I encourage you to post to the "swimming the Tiber" forum - http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=922&forum=1 Faithfully, Gideon |
| melkite6 | Posted: 2006/6/7 12:27 Updated: 2006/6/7 12:27 |
Not too shy to talk  Joined: 2006/5/23 From: Posts: 23 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Let's be a little specific here. In the first millenium, there were married priests. They were married first, and then ordained. That's the norm and the Orthodox Churches of the East continue that norm.
However, there has been no precedence in the Church for a priest, after ordination, to marry in either the East or the West. And that is the difference re those Catholic priests, who, after they were ordained AND TOOK VOWS OF CELIBACY, reneged on those vows and married. Wherever anyone falls in this issue, lets NOT equate the norm with the exception, which is, in the end what modernists and revisionists do for a living. |
| melkite6 | Posted: 2006/6/7 12:33 Updated: 2006/6/7 12:33 |
Not too shy to talk Joined: 2006/5/23 From: Posts: 23 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Joe of the Mountain:
There has always been liturgical diversity in the Church, East and West. Presently, there are 23 ritual Churches that make up the Catholic Church united to Rome. Each of these has its own spiritual emphasis, hierarchy, history and liturgical calendar. Some practice absolute celibacy, some the modified form of the Byzantine East. Even in the Eastern Orthodox Churches there are Western Rite parishes that follow the Faith Once Given in a clear Anglican manner. I suspect the reason Rome has difficulty with establishing an Anglican Rite is that there is no precedence, no ancient patriarchate connection with Canterbury. |
| hobbit | Posted: 2006/6/7 15:20 Updated: 2006/6/7 15:20 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2005/3/1 From: ireland Posts: 123 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Why would you want unity with Rome - their understanding of salvation is completely at odds with that of the Anglican church - that is if your a true anglican and still hold to the 39 Articles of Religion. Salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Added to that their doctrines concerning Mary, prayers for the dead, prayers to saints and of purgatory are not justified by a plain reading of Holy Scripture.
God bless hobbit |
| artistree | Posted: 2006/6/7 16:23 Updated: 2006/6/7 16:23 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/2/16 From: Lake Tomahawk Wisconsin Posts: 410 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME In an earlier post, Cennydd said,
"I for one am not about to "swim the Tiber." Now or any other time, and I am going to continue to do battle for what is right, and serve God as an orthodox Anglican! I think that Christianity as expressed by orthodox Anglicanism is worth fighting for!" I agree Cennydd. I don't understand the thinking of those in the TAC.I believe Orthodox Anglicanism is worth fighting for. Why be united with Rome when it still teaches doctrines contrary to Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition ? Purgatory, The Supremacy and Infallibility of the Pope, the Marian doctrines and prayers to the saints, celibacy of priests, cannot be defended by the Scriptures or the Apostolic Tradition. All of these doctrines are later additions and cannot be found in the teaching of the Early Church Fathers (Ante-Nicene).(Prayers for the dead can be defended with Scripture and the Apostolic Tradition).It seems to me that Orthodox Anglicans have more in common with the Eastern Church than with Rome. There is diversity within Orthodox Anglicanism. Personally, I hold to the 3 Historic Creeds of the Church but there are a few of the 39 articles that I cannot subcribe to. I believe that if the English Reformers had had access to all of the Early Church writings that we have today, the 39 articles would have a more Catholic/Orthodox flavor and less of a Protestant tone. But to be Orthodox is certainly not to be Roman because Rome has added to the faith once delivered. God's Peace, Artistree |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/7 16:33 Updated: 2006/6/7 19:10 |
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Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME I must be in a river or a pool with sharks but I will do my best starting with Salvation that hobbit raised. The following excerpt paraphased by me is taken from "Where is that in the Bible".
The Catholic church teaches that salvation is a gift from God (Ephesian 2:8-10) and that men and women must accept that gift through faith. Catholics do not believe that they have to work to "earn" their salvation. According to my understanding it is also dependent on how people make use of that free gift. Scripture shows that repentance and conversion are essential, but so it the obedience of faith and good works done in grace and through the power of God. Passages to support this are: Ephesians 2:8-9 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. Romans 2:4-8 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. Other suppoting passages include but are not limited to: Matthew 7:21-23, 19:16-17, 24:13, Luke 6:27-36, 6:46-49, 1 cor. 9:27, 1 John 3:7,5:3 God Bless BHTech |
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| Cennydd | Posted: 2006/6/7 16:46 Updated: 2006/6/7 16:48 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 7348 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Frehao the Nutcase is back! Quick, somebody call the Boys in the White Coats!
  Cennydd |
| CelticMyst | Posted: 2006/6/7 17:13 Updated: 2006/6/7 17:13 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2004/4/21 From: Anglican Orthodoxy Pre-Dates The Book Of Common Prayer Posts: 171 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Like I've said before, many of the ACN folks do NOT like Anglo-Catholics, do not understand them, often ask "Oxford Movement?" - etc...
The old hostilities between the catholic and evangelical parties are simply being calmed right now in order to fight the common enemy. Revolutionary politics 101: After the "evil" ECUSA powers are no longer the central threat, then party disputes will break out among the "orthodox" people. It happens in every major revolution. It is happening in Iraq right now. I have heard that many in the ACN leadership are reading "The Art of War" and such books. The best thing they can do is plan NOW for the evangelical-catholic divide. If I am reading things right, this is what they have done with the "non-geographical" FiF-NA convocation. Rome is not the only game in town. In the Orthodox Church married priests are not freaks and odd-balls. Once more I will say it: THERE NEEDS TO BE A VISIBLE AND HIGHLY ORGANIZED MOVEMENT TO BECOME WESTERN RITE ORTHODOX EN MASSE AMONG ANGLO-CATHOLICS. Forget Rome, because married priests are still odd-balls even in the Eastern Rites! Who will start planning for the true future of Anglo-Catholics by forming the Orthodox party within Anglicanism? |
| iceworm | Posted: 2006/6/7 18:33 Updated: 2006/6/7 18:33 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2004/3/21 From: Anchorage, Alaska US Posts: 153 |
Salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Thank you hobbit.
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| BrChip | Posted: 2006/6/7 19:03 Updated: 2006/6/7 19:10 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2004/1/11 From: Anglican Mission to South Dakota Posts: 302 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Smoke+,
One of your sister delegates has coined a new label for GC, she calls it "Camp Chaos" in a post on the HoB/D listerv today. As an aside, I notice that Amazon is pushing a new book by Louie Crew at the top of the VOL home page today, "101 Reasons to become an Episcopalian". Hmmmmm. Chip Johnson+, cj Anglican kibitzer, SD |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/7 20:06 Updated: 2006/6/7 20:06 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME melkite,
Thanks for the detail. I wonder when the last "associated" church was admitted to the Roman orbit... But in this day and age, there are RC churches on every street corner -- there is no need for entire Anglican parishes to "be admitted". All they need to do is walk across the street. Vanity, thy name is ... |
| JAKramer | Posted: 2006/6/7 21:03 Updated: 2006/6/7 21:03 |
Not too shy to talk Joined: 2004/8/11 From: New Orleans Posts: 23 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME The canon lawyers in Roma don't like these kinds of accommodations. Too "messy" for their liking and not going to happen with their strong opposition.
jak+ |
| gilderoy | Posted: 2006/6/7 22:08 Updated: 2006/6/7 22:08 |
Quite a regular  Joined: 2005/9/12 From: Posts: 56 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Stetson is a good and thoughtful man, but he cannot see the future. My hunch (I too am no prophet) is that massive geopolitical shifts ocurring around us even as we "blog" will soon drive faithful Christians to reunite in ways that currently seem unthinkable. Same-sex marriage is only the tip of the Enemy's lethal iceberg.
Remember that none of us can fulfill Christ's High Priestly Prayer.... but God CAN fulfill it in and through us. Yet the unity we seek will cost us our lives. Pay heed to the African bishops in both churches. Many there apprehend what is happening.... |
| lookingup | Posted: 2006/6/8 1:03 Updated: 2006/6/8 1:03 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2006/2/4 From: USA Posts: 94 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Hobbit posted this earlier:
"Why would you want unity with Rome - their understanding of salvation is completely at odds with that of the Anglican church - that is if your a true anglican and still hold to the 39 Articles of Religion. Salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Added to that their doctrines concerning Mary, prayers for the dead, prayers to saints and of purgatory are not justified by a plain reading of Holy Scripture." Amen! Hobbit, Amen! Below the surface, the RC church is absolutely filled with folly, junk, and the doctrines of men. I've been there, and wouldn't go back ever. |
| hobbit | Posted: 2006/6/8 7:12 Updated: 2006/6/8 7:12 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2005/3/1 From: ireland Posts: 123 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Cennydd
so who is the 'nutcase that is back?' hobbit |
| hobbit | Posted: 2006/6/8 7:19 Updated: 2006/6/8 7:19 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2005/3/1 From: ireland Posts: 123 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME BHTech
i think you will find that your quotation from Ephesians 2.8-9 supports my position concerning grace and faith. i never denied it was a gift from God - but even my faith is a gift from God - sorry but i am not Arminian on this issue. further to this i think you will find that Rome beleives 'grace' is conveyed automatically in sacraments so long as no barrier of unbelief is placed in its way. whereas traditional orthodox Anglicanism has always taught that grace is conveyed by those who receive it rightly by faith. although i can agree with many points with Rome and their clear stance on the issue of human sexuality is welcomed - i cannot have unity with those who do 'have erred' on fundamental doctrines such as salvation and how one actually comes into the kingdom of God. Please read carefully what i write next - i am not denying that individual RC cannot be saved but i am saying that as a church Rome has erred and strayed from the teachings of Holy Scripture and introduced doctrines which are in fact contrary to Holy Scripture. God bless Hobbit PS If i assume right then 'i am the nutcase who is back' - though my psychiatrist says i am fine!!! |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/8 12:12 Updated: 2006/6/8 12:12 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Indeed. As JAKramer (if my guess about you is right!) knows from experience, there is nothing like a fight for survival to focus one's attention on the basics. Quickly.
The West is dying. It may not outlive some of us posting here. Prof. Macdonald, an evolutionary psychologist (ever hear of such a thing?) believes Western habits such as conformity to the law and openness to strangers are actively working against us, even as they worked for us back in the "good old days" of the frozen tundra of the north country. His money says the West will not stop its internescine bickering and fight until significant "resource competition" ensues. I believe we are at that point with the rise of the Arab, Hindu and Chinese nations. If we accept de facto if not de leges that God spoke mainly to the Western peoples, and that we are presently enduring his wrath for disobedience, we should remember that he promised not to destroy the world by flooding (NOLA seems to be an exception). But suicide by abortion and birth control wasn't excluded -- and that's just what we're doing to ourselves. Christians do need to get over fanatical adherance to trivia like smells and bells and mediaevalism and at least agree to work together to present a united front to the world. How was it my statistics professor explained clusters? Homogeneous within, heterogeneous without. Christianity should be homogeneous within -- on the basics. Leave the heterogeneity to the Moslems, the Hindus, and the pagans. |
| melkite6 | Posted: 2006/6/8 12:14 Updated: 2006/6/8 12:14 |
Not too shy to talk Joined: 2006/5/23 From: Posts: 23 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME "Forget Rome, because married priests are still odd-balls even in the Eastern Rites!"
 Christ is in our midst. I must protest this calumny. As a married Eastern Rite priest (by God's grace), I have never been treated as an "odd-ball", nor have I ever witnessed my married brother priests treated in any way except as priests of Christ's Catholic Church. [Let's face it, any serious orthodox Christian in today's Western cultural climate is a bit "odd" to the ruling elites.] However, my wife occasionally thinks I'm a little odd, but she is a very rational person.  |
| Fiona | Posted: 2006/6/8 19:02 Updated: 2006/6/8 19:02 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/1/18 From: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 1071 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME An organization of 10,000 priests stand ready to serve the Church, however, they choose a wife during their priesthood while in Rome, while we can come in with a ready-made family. And we wonder why morale in so poor in the RC Church among priests? Double standard?
Of course it's a double standard. All I can say, go wherever you are prayerfully led, but before you change churches, do a bit of research. It is one thing to be born into a faith, but when you can make a choice, do so with your eyes open. Still dry on the British side of the Tiber, Fiona |
| CelticMyst | Posted: 2006/6/8 19:13 Updated: 2006/6/8 19:16 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/4/21 From: Anglican Orthodoxy Pre-Dates The Book Of Common Prayer Posts: 171 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME melkite6:
He is and ever shall be! On the calumny: It is my understanding that - even still - the bishops of the Eastern Rites in the U.S. have to seek special, individual, Papal approval for every married man they ordain to the priesthood. Also, this provision in the U.S. was not even allowed until just recently. The Roman Rite is faced with so many voices calling for a married priesthood they get really anxious about "confusion" concerning the mandated clerical celibacy issue. Granted, it is clear that opening the priesthood to married men would not be a "silver bullet" to solve the priest shortage, and would carry with it many hard questions for the Roman Rite. Still, the bishops are rightly scarred of what it would mean to start ordaining married men, because once done, it would be virtually impossible to ever go back to mandated celibacy. I have every confidence that all married Catholic priest are respected and honored, however, Roman Rite Cardinals who want to "hold the line" on celibacy are clear. And given the extreme MINORITY of married priests, whether respected or not (qualitative), they are still the statistical/numerical (quantitative) odd-balls in the Catholic Church. No disrespect intended, just an objective observation. Please remember this sinner in your holy prayers, Father. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/8 19:35 Updated: 2006/6/8 19:35 |
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Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Dear Hobbit,
You were too kind in your comments. By the way Cennyd was talking about Frehao in his remarks earlier on. Nothing to do with you .Where do I start? First of all I have outlined the Catholic position on Salvation so I'm glad you do agree with it. At least that is my understanding of what you have written. I can supply you with the Catholic position on Grace as well and I will do so later on. However, I thought you might be interested in reading the following article written by George Johnston. It was not written by me for the record .God Bless BHTech **************** Protestants and Sola Scriptura Scripture, our Evangelical friends tell us, is the inerrant Word of God. Quite right, the Catholic replies; but how do you know this to be true? It's not an easy question for Protestants, because, having jettisoned Tradition and the Church, they have no objective authority for the claims they make for Scripture. There is no list of canonical books anywhere in the Bible, nor does any book (with the exception of St. John's Apocalypse) claim to be inspired. So, how does a "Bible Christian" know the Bible is the Word of God? If he wants to avoid a train of thought that will lead him into the Catholic Church, he has just one way of responding: With circular arguments pointing to himself (or Luther or the Jimmy Swaggart Ministries or some other party not mentioned in the Bible) as an infallible authority telling him that it is so. Such arguments would have perplexed a first or second century Christian, most of whom never saw a Bible. Christ founded a teaching Church. So far as we know, he himself never wrote a word (except on sand). Nor did he commission the Apostles to write anything. In due course, some Apostles (and non-Apostles) composed the twenty-seven books which comprise the New Testament. Most of these documents are ad hoc; they are addressed to specific problems that arose in the early Church, and none claim to present the whole of Christian revelation. It's doubtful that St. Paul even suspected that his short letter to Philemon begging pardon for a renegade slave would some day be read as Holy Scripture. Who, then, decided that it was Scripture? The Catholic Church. And it took several centuries to do so. It was not until the Council of Carthage (397) and a subsequent decree by Pope Innocent I that Christendom had a fixed New Testament canon. Prior to that date, scores of spurious gospels and "apostolic" writings were floating around the Mediterranean basin: the Gospel of Thomas, the "Shepherd" of Hermas, St. Paul's Letter to the Laodiceans, and so forth. Moreover, some texts later judged to be inspired, such as the Letter to the Hebrews, were controverted. It was the Magisterium, guided by the Holy Spirit, which separated the wheat from the chaff. But, according to Protestants, the Catholic Church was corrupt and idolatrous by the fourth century and so had lost whatever authority it originally had. On what basis, then, do they accept the canon of the New Testament? Luther and Calvin were both fuzzy on the subject. Luther dropped seven books from the Old Testament, the so-called Apocrypha in the Protestant Bible; his pretext for doing so was that orthodox Jews had done it at the synod of Jamnia around 100 A. D.; but that synod was explicitly anti-Christian, and so its decisions about Scripture make an odd benchmark for Christians. Luther's real motive was to get rid of Second Maccabees, which teaches the doctrine of Purgatory. He also wanted to drop the Letter of James, which he called "an epistle of straw," because it flatly contradicts the idea of salvation by "faith alone" apart from good works. He was restrained by more cautious Reformers. Instead, he mistranslated numerous New Testament passages, most notoriously Romans 3:28, to buttress his polemical position. The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority--sola scriptura --is nowhere to be found in the Bible. St. Paul wrote to Timothy that Scripture is "useful" (which is an understatemtn), but neither he nor anyone else in the early Church taught sola scriptura. And, in fact, nobody believed it until the Reformation. Newman called the idea that God would let fifteen hundred years pass before revealing that the bible was the sole teaching authority for Christians an "intolerable paradox." Newman also wrote: "It is antecedently unreasonable to suppose that a book so complex, so unsystematic, in parts so obscure, the outcome of so many minds, times, and places, should be given us from above without the safeguard of some authority; as if it could possibly, from the nature of the case, interpret itself...." And, indeed, once they had set aside the teaching authority of the Church, the Reformers began to argue about key Scriptural passages. Luther and Zwingli, for example, disagreed vehemently about what Christ meant by the words, "This is my Body." St. Augustine, usually Luther's guide and mentor, ought to have the last word about sola scriptura: "But for the authority of the Church, I would not believe the Gospel." George Sim Johnston |
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| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/8 23:56 Updated: 2006/6/8 23:56 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME So George, I am then to trust a bunch of guys running around in costume to instruct me on truth? Fascinating. The same guys who sent armies into Germany. Into Lithuania. Into England. Into Mexico. (I don't mind the armies they sent into Palestine.) To convert or kill the natives. Guys like Cardinal "Red Roger" Mahony. Who are felonious accomplices after-the-fact.
Yeah, right. I trust 'em. Implicitly. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/9 2:11 Updated: 2006/6/9 2:11 |
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Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Dear Joe,
Don't direct your anger at George (or myself) who wrote that article a few years ago. Instead focus on the contents on the article with an open mind and see if what he is saying makes sense or is true or not. With Christian love and blessings BHTech |
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| pamela777 | Posted: 2006/6/9 14:48 Updated: 2006/6/9 14:48 |
Just popping in  Joined: 2004/11/28 From: Posts: 11 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME 18 months ago, I don’t think that any one was more anti-Catholic than I!!
Today, I am fully Catholic. I crossed the Tiber and have not regretted it a bit! I feel that I have to respond to Artistree’s post about Catholic doctrine as I used to hold the same view. Upon an honest study of these doctrines and a more thorough understanding of them, my response was, “oh, that is not a deal breaker”. The three biggest deal breakers for me were 1, the pope, 2 purgatory and 3 Marian devotion. Regarding the Pope and his infallibility: Jesus gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom. Which was an office. Office itself is of importance. Peter was very fallible both before he received the keys and after, so Peter wasn’t made infallible, his office as keeper of sacred doctrine and tradition was. 2000 years later you will find that the Catholic Catechism is incredibly orthodox! Christ has kept it so through the office of the Pope and the magistrium. Regarding Purgatory. Non-catholic completely remove verses from the bible, like Phil 2:12, “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”? Salvation is a gift through faith, but we still need to have our souls purged of the effects of sin. You’d be amazed how many verses there are supporting this. How do you reconcile 1 Cor 3:11-18? Especially vs. 13, “each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be reveal with fire. And the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work”. Marian devotion cannot be understood without an understanding of the Catholic view of the Communion of Saints. With an understanding of it, one can say, it is not a deal breaker, nor is it a requirement of the church. No church is without “issues” my only point in this post is that after 2000 years the Catholic Church as tenaciously defended and maintained the faith… And, unlike one previous poster, my reading of the early church fathers amazes my at how Catholic were their writings. The best part of crossing the Tiber, is that the battle is over. I love being one of 1 billion world wide Catholics. While I can go to many different CC's thoughout the world they all follow the teaching of the Church and embrace the Liturgy. I don't have to enter every church, with a discerning mind to ferret out what each individual church believes. [I sat in an Episcoal Church where the priest shielded me from what he and the majority of the church believed. I felt so betrayed after the 2003 convention. He knew that I would not agree so he twisted the truth enough to keep me in the dark.] And Gideon, I'll check that RCIA message board... |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/9 15:50 Updated: 2006/6/9 20:14 |
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Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Dear Pamela777
Welcome to the other side of the Tiber! Though I have not completed my RCIA course as yet, I have been advocating for months now for the Catholic church. You and I and others will get flack for that now and in the future, but it is ok. I have said it and I will say it again, there is a lot of misinformation about the Catholic church that exists out there regarding Salvation, Marian devotion, the Saints etc. My reading of numerous Catholic books and web sites has told me such. I also consider myself (humbly) capable of discerning what is right in an argument or not. As a starting point take an issue about Catholism that bothers you the least and read what the Catholic apologetics (www.catholic.com or http://www.cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/apolo.html) have to say about it. Then work your way up to the more difficult and troubling issues. I have read and reread things many times to make sure I understand before accepting it. Once one comes to the realization that Protestantism is flawed by vitue of private judgement-every man to themself interpretation, (let alone Henry VIII wanting boy children), you have to ask yourself the question who then has the authority to interpret the Bible and get it right? As I have posted in another thread, is it the Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, or Lutherians given they all have different views and interpretations of the Bible? In other words "Sola Scriptura" for all Christians. This so called strong point rapidly deteriorates however, when one considers that there are different denominations in the first place and no unified Protestant church. Interestingly enough Protestants can disagree on a number of scriptural and doctrinal issues but they all agree that Catholisim is bad and corrupt. If only they know how much their own doctrine has changed over the last 400-500 years from what Luther and Calvin envisioned. An examination of Luthers own writing illustrate his own confusion at times. I am not knocking Anglicans for this is what I grew up in, but I took it for granted until I started examining the facts which lead me to the conclusion that I now find myself with. I challenge anyone with time on their hands and a televison to watch ETWN and specifically a program called the "The Journey Home". It's available live on the web as well twice a week I believe. Silly as it sounds you see Anglican priests, Methodists, Lutherans, baptists, ex-catholics, even aethists at times talking about what lead them to Roman Catholism. For some its false doctrine in their churches, others a deeper wanting to get to know more about the truth. Just as absolute truth must exist between Christianity and Islam to use an example, i.e. one must be true and other false, so too must absolute truth exist within the walls of Christianity. That is Catholism and Protestanism. It's food for thought. God Bless BHTech |
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| melkite6 | Posted: 2006/6/9 16:25 Updated: 2006/6/9 16:25 |
Not too shy to talk Joined: 2006/5/23 From: Posts: 23 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME "No disrespect intended, just an objective observation"
Glory to Jesus Christ. Your objective observation has some truth to it. Given your correct premise, as I have interpreted it, that when the majority are following a mandated discipline (celibacy), and it is seen as a blessing to the Church (it is and has been for 2000 years), how do you allow the equally ancient practice of a married priesthood? A good question that I believe will be answered with all the slow but orthodox discernment of the Church. I might add here that in PECUSA, where the majority of the clergy are married (some several times...) they minister usually under a vestry and that this has been equally effective in the revisionism of Anglicanism as the modernism of its bishops. How can a member of the clergy be faithful to the matrimonial vocation AND the orthodox ministry if the vestry keeps waving the paycheck in his face? How many orthodox Anglican clergy haven't left because it is their livelihood and they have responsiblities with their families? The married priesthood has its own problems... |
| pamela777 | Posted: 2006/6/9 19:10 Updated: 2006/6/9 19:10 |
Just popping in Joined: 2004/11/28 From: Posts: 11 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME I spent many years in evangelical christianity and recognized that if I stayed I would end up in a church of one... schism-ism I call it. I then went to the Episcopal Church and fell in love with the Liturgy. While I knew some of the unorthodox teaching of the church I felt safe under the covering of our priest, who assured me I was in a "safe" place. That is why I felt so violated.
My husband started watching the Journey Home on EWTN a few years ago. As he watched he was exposed to the true positions of the church and the testimonies of so many evangelicas crossing the Tiber. It was a long slow process for me, but I am so glad to be here. I not only understand the doctrines of the RC, I love them. I've never experience deeper worship or prayer. It is truly a blessing for me! Scott Hahn's tapes on the Pope, Purgatory, Mary, Communion of Saints and the Eucharist is a must for all interested in learning the history and biblical basis for the doctrines of the RC. Regarding married priests. Paul clearly says that it is better to stay single to serve the Lord as a married man has the cares of his life and family. I've got 3 boys age 19-22 and they take all my energy so I can see the logic to having a priesthood devoted to serving without the distraction and responsibility of a family. I know there are many fine priests with family that can serve the Lord, I''m not saying they can't. It just seems better to serve undistracted... I think Paul may be correct on this one... I wish I had been open to come over sooner... I was so anti-catholic and now I find all the things I believed about the RC were lies and distortions. Such a waste of time and such deception. I hope I encourage people to at least entertaint the concept that what they believe to be true about the RC, is not necessarily so. p.s. I was raised a Catholic [went to my first confession in 40 years! It was a wonderful, tearful and spiritually rewarding cleansing experience] and I went through the RCIA class as a sponsor for my husband. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/9 19:46 Updated: 2006/6/9 20:02 |
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Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Dear Pamela777
It's interesting you were raised a Catholic before your journeys in and out of Catholism. They say that sometimes its out of fear or disappointment that people leave the RC church, but clearly God has called you back. For our good readers Scott Hahn is a prolific Catholic writer and speaker who was a Presberterian Minister who came to grips with the error of Sola scriptura and sola fide. If you wish to read more about him see http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles/lost_soul_scott_hahn.htm for a good review of him and http://www.salvationhistory.com/ for his web site. Finally I give you the words of G. K. Chesterton who famously said, "there are three stages to conversion to Catholicism: First, realizing that what many say about the Catholic Church is untrue; Second, defending the Catholic Church against unjust attacks; third, running away from the Church". God Bless BHTech P.S. C.S. Lewis credited Chesterton book "The Everlasting Man" with his conversion to Christianity. |
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| DTaylor | Posted: 2006/6/10 21:26 Updated: 2006/6/10 21:26 |
Quite a regular  Joined: 2004/8/28 From: Orange County New York Posts: 68 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME The Episcopal Parishes that thought they could turn to Rome should have instead turned to Anitoch.
The Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America has the Anglican Rite and would be very happy to welcome orthodox Episcopal parishes into the fold. They in the past have ordained Episcopal priests and chrismated entire parishes into the Orthodox Western Rite. |
| Truthseekr | Posted: 2006/6/10 21:34 Updated: 2006/6/10 21:34 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/9/14 From: terra firma ................ ( just a pilgrim passing thru ) Posts: 785 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Hi DTaylor,
I am not too familiar with these folks. Does the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America allow married priests? |
| DTaylor | Posted: 2006/6/11 0:57 Updated: 2006/6/11 0:57 |
Quite a regular Joined: 2004/8/28 From: Orange County New York Posts: 68 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Yes, Married priests. However,if they should be widowed they may not re-marry.
The 2 Liturgies in the Antiochian Western Rite are the Liturgy of St. Tikhon which is the BCP 1928 service and the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great which is the pre Vatican II Mass in English. For more info see this site westernorthodox.com When I left the Episcopal Church I joined a Western Rite Orthodox Mission. Due to some leadership problems within the Mission I left and am now in an Orthodox Church that uses the byzantine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I am very happy in Orthodoxy. |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/12 22:54 Updated: 2006/6/12 22:54 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME BH,
One of the limitations of blogging/email etc is the impossibility of accurately conveying emotional states. This post is not angry -- it is sarcastic, but aimed squarely at Rome itself. And  (emoticon!) I thank you for the opportunity to clarify that. |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/12 23:04 Updated: 2006/6/12 23:04 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME BH, the main problem with claims such as "the bible was written by the church" (actually it was edited by trhe church, not written by it) and then the somewhat naive claims that "since the bible doesn't include everything, you've got to listen to us for the important details not included therein" begs and strains credulity.
To believe that Rome is uniquely privvy to esoteric or even oral traditions requires a high degree of trust. For example, praying to saints (including BVM) is on the face of it, a flagrant violation of the First Commandment. It also is in contradiction to numerous statements that Christ is our Mediator, our Salvation and our Way. Even if "saints" are in heaven (opposed to prophesies of the Resurrection), why should we waste time invoking them when we have a hotline to our Advocate, Christ? All we need do is ask in his name and it shall be granted. So too are many CoR "traditions" highly suspect--but highly explainable if we merely consider the pagan roots of the Roman Empire. The BVM fits very nicely into Minerva; the various saints complete the pantheon. Christ was adamant this way of thinking and worshipping leads to damnation. Therefore, to believe the CoR has credibility as to their own authority, we must ignore their many and long lived belly-slappers such as above. To my critical mind, following the plain meaning of the Commandments and Christ's publicly recorded teachings, the CoR has no credibility. None. Nada. Zip. To believe their claim that they have extra-biblical authority therefore requires a leap of faith that is evidently self-serving to the CoR. For that reason alone, their claims should be ignored as likely fabrications. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/12 23:04 Updated: 2006/6/12 23:04 |
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Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME No probs Joe. All taken in good faith.
God Bless BHTech |
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/6/12 23:12 Updated: 2006/6/12 23:12 |
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Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Dear Joe
You raise some very interesting points that I can rebut time permitting. However, I am conversing with MichaelA in the theology section (The Episcopal Church - An Historical Reflection) on the issue of Sola Scriptura. Perhaps you might wish to follow along our arguments. God Bless BHTech |
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| MichaelA | Posted: 2006/6/13 7:20 Updated: 2006/6/13 7:22 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Yes, unfortunately Joe, I have been the recipient of reams of flawed arguments from BHTech on another thread. Simply sifting through his unjustified assumptions about protestant theology has wasted hours of my time. Then when I tried to get the actual proofs from either scripture or the ancient church leaders for Roman Catholic doctrines, I had an even harder time getting an answer.
Fortunately, the Anglican church received a good foundation in Protestant teaching, which is true to the scriptures and to the non-heretical teachings of the ancient church. Wherever the Anglican church has held true to the doctrines set out in scripture, it has flourished. Where it has denied the authority of scripture, we see results like ECUSA today. Regardless of whatever heretical teachings various churches may come up with, the Holy Spirit will continue to witness in the hearts of all believers: Anglican, Catholic, Baptist or whatever. The Spirit will also continue to witness to the unsaved through believers everywhere. Amen! |
| Truthseekr | Posted: 2006/6/13 11:47 Updated: 2006/6/13 11:47 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/9/14 From: terra firma ................ ( just a pilgrim passing thru ) Posts: 785 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Quote:
Regardless of whatever heretical teachings various churches may come up with, the Holy Spirit will continue to witness in the hearts of all believers: Anglican, Catholic, Baptist or whatever. The Spirit will also continue to witness to the unsaved through believers everywhere. well said MichaelA... |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/14 15:23 Updated: 2006/6/14 15:23 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Michael and Truthseekr (and BH!),
It must boil down to this: We can confirm the authenticity of the Bible to within one generation of Christ's mission on Earth. Everything else is hear-say. If the hear-say makes sense, then no harm is done in using it to advantage. But if the hear-say is nonsensical (compared to the standard of Scripture), then it must be discarded as a measure of the Faith. Could we be wrong with sola scriptura? Perhaps. But since every mystic seems to have different and conflicting messages of his metaphysical journeys to that plain beyond good and evil, What else are we to do??? Perhaps Saint Pete will give me a good shellacking at the Pearly Gates for being a numbskull, but he won't find fault with my earnestness to do the right thing. |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/14 15:27 Updated: 2006/6/14 15:27 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME So any pope = Peter?
Says who???! That same reasoning would make Klinton and Jorge equal to George Washington!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! "If proof by assertion were valid, I'd have my PhD now". |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2006/6/14 15:34 Updated: 2006/6/14 15:34 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME So Pamela, you are being true to your genetics.
As a WASP, I am being true to mine. Rome is the ancient enemy of my people and its followers have caused much mischief and suffering in this world. When the yoke of Roma was lifted, mankind found freedom and Godly civilization flourished. Are we in a difficult time today? Yes. But it is not Protestantism that is at fault. Read, "The Culture of Critique" and see what antichristian forces were truly working against the Anglo-Saxon Protestant culture. Oh yeah -- the CoR was only too happy to assist with their overriding hatred of Protestants. Piliing on has a way of overwhelming even the most stout warriors... By the way, this is a blog for Anglicans. Why are you posting here? Please depart in peace. |
| MichaelA | Posted: 2006/6/15 0:05 Updated: 2006/6/15 0:05 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/5/29 From: Posts: 869 |
Re: NO REFUGE FOR ANGLICANS SEEKING UNITY WITH ROME Joe,
I just wanted to let you and others know that I very much support your stand on the issue of the authority of Scripture. I say this not to re-open the debate I have already had with BHTech and DnNeal in the Theology section of VOL, but to let you know that you are not alone. Be encouraged, have fellowship with your congregation and build it up, as the Lord gives you the opportunity. Lay the groundwork for a strong Anglicanism in the United States of America. Continue to encourage us, as you have been doing for so long! Regards Michael |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2006/7/2 7:40 Updated: 2006/7/2 7:40 |
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Re: PENNSYLVANIA: No Refuge For Anglicans Seeking Unity With Folks….these two stories are breaking over in England now. I thought everyone needs to read this. If you think APO is going anywhere, guess again. However, there are some prophetic statements about where the CofE is heading. These are both from the London Telegraph dateline today July 2, 2006. The first story was by Jonathan Wynee-Jones. Entitled “Liberals May Split From Cantebury over Homosexuals.” Here’s a clip…..
“Liberal clergy in Britain are preparing to turn to America’s Anglican bishops for leadership in a move that could produce “civil war” and destroy the Church of England. The Sunday Telegraph has learned.” “They are considering the drastic action after the Archbishop of Cantebury, Rowan Williams. Delivered a strong warning to liberals that they could be marginalized from the Anglican Church……” “Among the ideas discussed were the twinning of English and American parishes, and inviting more clergy from the U.S. to come to England on placements.” “There is also the radical possibility of an American bishop “overseeing” a liberal parish in this country, whose members feel marginalized by the imposition of traditional beliefs.” Now if any of you think this will stiffen the resolve of Rowan….guess again. Here is another article in the same paper datelined today July 2 as well. This article was posted by Mary Wakefield….here’s a clip….. “The sun was already high over Church Hill in Hertfordshire at 10:30 on Thursday morning as I followed Christina Rees through the garden, up to her front door.” “Christina is American by birth, but a member of our General Synod and chairwoman of Women and the Church (WATCH), which struggles to free the Church of England from patriarchal prejudice.” “And within the hour…she’d explained the Anglican Communion to me, unraveled all its competeing theologies and made it appear suddenly quite clear that despite his recent nod in the direction of the conservatives, the Archbishop of Cantebury will eventually go with the liberal flow….” Christina said “”You want to know what the headlines will be on July 10?” Yes, please. “They’ll all say the same thing: CofE votes for woman bishops!” So after women bishops in the CofE, you think openly gay clergy is next? “Let’s get real,” said Christina. “Look how many of them there are already. It’s just not official yet.” So is Rowan Williams thinking along these lines too? Christina just smiled. And maybe she’s right. It is true that in my part of London, a nice lady priest and her girlfriend run their parish side by side, and in the next door church, a gay priest and his partner do the same. If their spiritual leader thought they were making the Creator cross, surely he’d have put his foot down by now. And here the reporter is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. ROWAN WILLIAMS WILL NOT SEE THE BREAKUP OF THE COMMUNION FOR ANYTHING. HE WILL DELAY APO IF NOT OUTRIGHT REFUSE IT. EVEN IF HE DOES HE WILL NOT CLAMP DOWN ON THE HERETICS IN ENGLAND OR THE US. IT IS BEYOND HIGH TIME FOR YOU ALL TO REALIZE THAT THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND IS NOT IN OUR FUTURE. THE COMMUNION IS BEING BROKEN BY GOD HIMSELF AND IT’S NEW HEADQUARTERS WILL BE EVENTUALLY IN ALEXANDRIA EGYPT UNDER THE AFRICANS. DO YOURSELF THE FAVOR AND BREAK FROM YOUR OLD ESTABLISHED MINDSET…..ONCE AGAIN THE COMMUNION AS WE KNOW IT IS DEAD….DEAD…..DEAD AND SO IS THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND. |
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| gregory | Posted: 2006/7/2 13:53 Updated: 2006/7/2 13:53 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4481 |
Re: PENNSYLVANIA: No Refuge For Anglicans Seeking Unity With A response from another place rootbranch's post is posted;
Poster: AlMarsh Posted: 2006/7/2 9:39:04 Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers. General Synod will decide, not the Sunday Telegraph or the somewhat confused Ms Rees. And it will be influenced by how the Anglican Communion shapes up: which is about to become a much more conservative shape. Which i agree one must understand the source and that one can be lead into helping spread false info... FEAR = False Evidence Appearing Real |
