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News : ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a state within a state
Posted by David Virtue on 2006/2/21 11:30:00 (22108 reads)

ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a state within a state

By Alasdair Palmer
The Telegraph Group
February 19, 2006

For the past two weeks, Patrick Sookhdeo has been canvassing the opinions of Muslim clerics in Britain on the row over the cartoons featuring images of Mohammed that were first published in Denmark and then reprinted in several other European countries.

"They think they have won the debate," he says with a sigh. "They believe that the British Government has capitulated to them, because it feared the consequences if it did not.

"The cartoons, you see, have not been published in this country, and the Government has been very critical of those countries in which they were published. To many of the Islamic clerics, that's a clear victory.

"It's confirmation of what they believe to be a familiar pattern: if spokesmen for British Muslims threaten what they call 'adverse consequences' - violence to the rest of us - then the British Government will cave in. I think it is a very dangerous precedent."

Dr Sookhdeo adds that he believes that "in a decade, you will see parts of English cities which are controlled by Muslim clerics and which follow, not the common law, but aspects of Muslim sharia law.

"It is already starting to happen - and unless the Government changes the way it treats the so-called leaders of the Islamic community, it will continue."

For someone with such strong and uncompromising views, Dr Sookhdeo is a surprisingly gentle and easy-going man. He speaks with authority on Islam, as it was his first faith: he was brought up as a Muslim in Guyana, the only English colony in South America, and attended a madrassa there.

"But Islamic instruction was very different in the 1950s, when I was at school," he says. "There was no talk of suicide bombing or indeed of violence of any kind. Islam was very peaceful."

Dr Sookhdeo's family emigrated to England when he was 10. In his early twenties, when he was at university, he converted to Christianity. "I had simply seen it as the white man's religion, the religion of the colonialists and the oppressors - in a very similar way, in fact, to the way that many Muslims see Christianity today.

" Leaving Islam was not easy. According to the literal interpretation of the Koran, the punishment for apostasy is death - and it actually is punished by death in some Middle Eastern states. "It wasn't quite like that here," he says, "although it was traumatic in some ways."

Dr Sookhdeo continued to study Islam, doing a PhD at London University on the religion. He is currently director of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity. He also advises the Army on security issues related to Islam.

Several years ago, Dr Sookhdeo insisted that the next wave of radical Islam in Britain would involve suicide bombings in this country. His prediction was depressingly confirmed on 7/7 last year.

So his claim that, in the next decade, the Muslim community in Britain will not be integrated into mainstream British society, but will isolate itself to a much greater extent, carries weight behind it. Dr Sookhdeo has proved his prescience.

"The Government, and Tony Blair, the Prime Minister, are fundamentally deluded about the nature of Islam," he insists. "Tony Blair unintentionally revealed his ignorance when he said, in an effort to conciliate Muslims, that he had 'read through the Koran twice' and that he kept it by his bedside.

"He thought he was saying something which showed how seriously he took Islam. But most Muslims thought it was a joke, if not an insult. Because, of course, every Muslim knows that you cannot read the Koran through from cover to cover and understand it.

The chapters are not written to be read in that way. Indeed, after the first chapter, the chapters of the Koran are ordered according to their length, not according to their content or chronology: the longest chapters are first, the shorter ones are at the end.

"You need to know which passage was revealed at what period and in what time in order to be able to understand it - you cannot simply read it from beginning to end and expect to learn anything at all.

"That is one reason why it takes so long to be able to read and understand the Koran: the meaning of any part of it depends on a knowledge of its context - a context that is not in the Koran itself."

The Prime Minister's ignorance of Islam, Dr Sookhdeo contends, is of a piece with his unsuccessful attempts to conciliate it. And it does indeed seem as if the Government's policy towards radical Islam is based on the hope that if it makes concessions to its leaders, they will reciprocate and relations between fundamentalist Muslims and Tony Blair's Government will then turn into something resembling an ecumenical prayer meeting.

Dr Sookhdeo nods in vigorous agreement with that. "Yes - and it is a very big mistake. Look at what happened in the 1990s. The security services knew about Abu Hamza and the preachers like him. They knew that London was becoming the centre for Islamic terrorists. The police knew. The Government knew. Yet nothing was done.

"The whole approach towards Muslim militants was based on appeasement. 7/7 proved that that approach does not work - yet it is still being followed. For example, there is a book, The Noble Koran: a New Rendering of its Meaning in English, which is openly available in Muslim bookshops.

"It calls for the killing of Jews and Christians, and it sets out a strategy for killing the infidels and for warfare against them. The Government has done nothing whatever to interfere with the sale of that book.

"Why not? Government ministers have promised to punish religious hatred, to criminalise the glorification of terrorism, yet they do nothing about this book, which blatantly does both."

Perhaps the explanation is just that they do not take it seriously. "I fear that is exactly the problem," says Dr Sookhdeo. "The trouble is that Tony Blair and other ministers see Islam through the prism of their own secular outlook.

They simply do not realise how seriously Muslims take their religion. Islamic clerics regard themselves as locked in mortal combat with secularism.

"For example, one of the fundamental notions of a secular society is the moral importance of freedom, of individual choice. But in Islam, choice is not allowable: there cannot be free choice about whether to choose or reject any of the fundamental aspects of the religion, because they are all divinely ordained. God has laid down the law, and man must obey.

'Islamic clerics do not believe in a society in which Islam is one religion among others in a society ruled by basically non-religious laws. They believe it must be the dominant religion - and it is their aim to achieve this.

"That is why they do not believe in integration. In 1980, the Islamic Council of Europe laid out their strategy for the future - and the fundamental rule was never dilute your presence. That is to say, do not integrate.

"Rather, concentrate Muslim presence in a particular area until you are a majority in that area, so that the institutions of the local community come to reflect Islamic structures. The education system will be Islamic, the shops will serve only halal food, there will be no advertisements showing naked or semi-naked women, and so on."

That plan, says Dr Sookhdeo, is being followed in Britain. "That is why you are seeing areas which are now almost totally Muslim. The next step will be pushing the Government to recognise sharia law for Muslim communities - which will be backed up by the claim that it is "racist" or "Islamophobic" or "violating the rights of Muslims" to deny them sharia law.

"There's already a Sharia Law Council for the UK. The Government has already started making concessions: it has changed the law so that there are sharia-compliant mortgages and sharia pensions.

"Some Muslims are now pressing to be allowed four wives: they say it is part of their religion. They claim that not being allowed four wives is a denial of their religious liberty. There are Muslim men in Britain who marry and divorce three women, then marry a fourth time - and stay married, in sharia law, to all four.

"The more fundamentalist clerics think that it is only a matter of time before they will persuade the Government to concede on the issue of sharia law. Given the Government's record of capitulating, you can see why they believe that."

Dr Sookhdeo's vision of a relentless battle between secular and Islamic Britain seems hard to reconcile with the co-operation that seems to mark the vast majority of the interactions between the two communities.

"Well, it isn't me who says Islam is at war with secularisation," he says. "That's how Islamic clerics describe the situation."

But isn't it true that most Muslims who live in theocratic states want to get out of them as quickly as possible and live in a secular country such as Britain or America? And that most Muslims who come to Britain adopt the values of a liberal, democratic, tolerant society, rather than insisting on the inflexible rules of their religion?

"You have to distinguish between ordinary Muslims and their self-appointed leaders," explains Dr Sookhdeo. "I agree that the best hope for our collective future is that the majority of Muslims who have grown up here have accepted the secular nature of the British state and society, the division between religion and politics, and the importance of allowing people to choose freely how they will live.

"But that is not how most of the clerics talk. And, more significantly, it is not how the 'community leaders' whom the Government has decided represent the Muslim community think either.

"Take, for example, Tariq Ramadan, whom the Government has appointed as an adviser because ministers think he is a 'community leader'. Ramadan sounds, in public, very moderate. But in reality, he has some very extreme views. He attacks liberal Muslims as 'Muslims without Islam'. He is affiliated to the violent and uncompromising Muslim Brotherhood.

"He calls the education in the state schools of the West 'aggression against the Islamic personality of the child'. He has said that 'the Muslim respects the laws of the country only if they do not contradict any Islamic principle'. He has added that 'compromising on principles is a sign of fear and weakness'."

So what's the answer? What should the Government be doing? "First, it should try to engage with the real Muslim majority, not with the self-appointed 'community leaders' who don't actually represent anyone: they have not been elected, and the vast majority of ordinary Muslims have nothing to do with them.

"Second, the Government should say no to faith-based schools, because they are a block to integration. There should be no compromise over education, or over English as the language of education. The policy of political multiculturalism should be reversed.

"The hope was that it would to ensure separate communities would soften at the edges and integrate. But the opposite has in fact happened: Islamic communities have hardened. There is much less integration than there was for the generation that arrived when I did. There will be much less in the future if the present trend continues.

"Finally, the Government should make it absolutely clear: we welcome diversity, we welcome different religions - but all of them have to accept the secular basis of British law and society. That is a non-negotiable condition of being here.

"If the Government does not do all of those things then I fear for the future, because Islamic communities within Britain will form a state within a state. Religion will occupy an ever-larger place in our collective political life. And, speaking as a religious man myself, I fear that outcome."

http://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia219.xml Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2006.

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Poster Thread
essodalori
Posted: 2006/2/21 14:35  Updated: 2006/2/21 14:53
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/9/15
From:
Posts: 4904
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
There are huge parallels between homosexualists and Islamiscists in a place like Britain.

Both want to deny many obvious truths.

Both want to be seen as 'equal' to things they're not.

Both want never to be criticized or told they're wrong - and are willing to intimidate, name call, threaten and use the government to silence others.

Both want to proselytize and indoctrinate youth.

Both could give a damn about free speech or freedom of religion.

Both are in your face.

Both want to remake Western civilized society over in their image.

Both are antagonistic to Christianity.

With Christian love,

Essodalori
DnNeal
Posted: 2006/2/21 14:54  Updated: 2006/2/21 14:54
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/9/26
From: Tennessee
Posts: 1302
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
Does anyone know if other European governments are making similar capitulations to Sharai law? And what of the conservative reactions?

If anyone has some good links I would appreciate having them.

Thanks,

Neal
Anonymous
Posted: 2006/2/21 15:02  Updated: 2006/2/21 15:04
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
People in the West wake up and smell the roses please! Recognize that you are about to be taken over slowly by a religion that offers no compromises. It's their way or no way at all for the leaders of this religion.

Oh, for those who support same-sex rights in Britain, you had better watch out because Islam is incompatable with your goals!
DnNeal
Posted: 2006/2/21 15:18  Updated: 2006/2/21 15:18
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/9/26
From: Tennessee
Posts: 1302
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
BHTech,

Yes, muticulturalism always breaks down somewhere doesn't it.

Actually it is ok for an adult Muslim man to have sex with a teenage boy as long as the act is only for pleasure. Check out the book "The Sword of the Prophet: The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam". Here is a link to it:

National Review

In an interview with a soldier in Egypt a Western interviewer asked about homosexuality in the military. He firmly denied this as incompatible with Islamic law. But when he was asked about having sex with a teenage boy he did not include this in the definition. This was an option he desired to keep open.

That's having your cake and eating it too. Of course, if you are identified as a "homosexual" you might get a wall pulled over on top of you (unless your lover is highly placed that is and doesn't get tired of you.)

Neal
Anonymous
Posted: 2006/2/21 15:29  Updated: 2006/2/21 15:31
 Re: Captulation to Muslims
DnNeal --

Yes, the Swedish city of Malmo is essetnially run by muslims. Swedish police won't even patrol the city. Sections of ghettos around Gothenborg and large areas of housing projects on outskirts of Stockholm are similar. Imagine the big CHA housing projects in Chicago run by the residents and you get a good idea. Malmo is NOT a Swedish city anymore.

Parts of Berlin and Hamburg are similar in terms of population, but not sure on control.

Even in the US, go up to Detroit/Dearborn sometime.
Anonymous
Posted: 2006/2/21 15:31  Updated: 2006/2/21 15:31
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
"Yes, muticulturalism always breaks down somewhere doesn't it. "

**********


Dear Neal,

Yes you are right. It always breaks down inevitably, and I speak from experience.

The book you suggested is next on my list for reading. Thanks. Currently, I'm reading "Answering Islam by Norman Geisler and Abdul Saleeb".

God Bless

BHTech
Cennydd
Posted: 2006/2/21 15:32  Updated: 2006/2/21 15:34
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6863
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
If you Brits on this blog are smart, you'll tell your MPs to take action to preserve British freedoms....and this means expelling all Muslims who advocate a separate state for them within the British Isles! Those Muslims who are subjects of the Crown should be put on notice that this will not be tolerated! Parliament MUST reassert their absolute authority over the United Kingdom!
DnNeal
Posted: 2006/2/21 15:42  Updated: 2006/2/21 15:42
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/9/26
From: Tennessee
Posts: 1302
 Re: Captulation to Muslims
amfreborg

I think I'll avoid Detroit and Dearborn.

Cennyd's idea is spot on. I hold out little hope for the EU except for Great Britain. Tony, wake up!!

Neal
DnNeal
Posted: 2006/2/21 15:43  Updated: 2006/2/21 15:43
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/9/26
From: Tennessee
Posts: 1302
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
BHTech

How is your current book?

Neal
Anonymous
Posted: 2006/2/21 15:59  Updated: 2006/2/21 15:59
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
Dear Neal,

I have just started Chapter 1, part 2: The Islamist view of Creation and Man.

All I will say at this point in time, is that this is becoming apparent that this is one man's interpretation of God. You can see the elements of Christianity in it, but in the first chapter, part 1 it comes out that their God is remote from his people and not in touch with us human beings. He is also a God of contrasting views on humanity which sounds very man made to be honest.

Oh well. Onward I slug into it .

God Bless

BHTech
DnNeal
Posted: 2006/2/21 16:14  Updated: 2006/2/21 16:17
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/9/26
From: Tennessee
Posts: 1302
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
Dear BHTech,

Sounds interesting. If your review is good I'll pick up a copy.

Speaking of man-made, I had a conversation with a Muslim MD whose son was my son's friend. He confessed to me that he was questioning his faith and had considered converting to Christianity (Eastern Orthodoxy as it turns out since he knew it to be the "original form", his words not mine) but it was too, well, "dangerous". Unfotunately, he and his family moved out of town soon after. God bless him.

He told me the story of how Friday was chosen to be Isalm's holy day. I had read why but wanted to hear it from him as I was fearful of bias on the part of the author I had read (Bernard Lewis biased?).

He told me that in Medina there was a strong Jewish contingent at the time of Mohammed. They worshipped, of course, on Saturday. There were also a number of Christians who worshipped on Sundays. Mohammed chose Friday simply because Saturday and Sunday had already been taken. No joke.

Man-made indeed. No wonder they have to resort to tyranny and violence to insure loyalty.

Neal
Anonymous
Posted: 2006/2/21 16:25  Updated: 2006/2/21 16:30
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
"No joke."

********

I believe you Neal. I'm not surprised. Even the very symbol of Islam, the Moon crescent comes from the fact that Mohammed had to choose a God at one stage of his ministry (to use my words) and in his family the moon god was his favourite of three gods, so that's why they have the crescent today.

I just read they believe Adam was made in heaven shortly after the angels, but was made from clay. God announced it to the angels. I did not know that clay existed in heaven, so we learn something new everyday.

God Bless

BHTech
DnNeal
Posted: 2006/2/21 16:45  Updated: 2006/2/21 16:45
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/9/26
From: Tennessee
Posts: 1302
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
BHTech

LUNACY, all of it.

Neal
warmac9999
Posted: 2006/2/21 16:49  Updated: 2006/2/21 16:49
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/2/16
From:
Posts: 1463
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
There will come a day or an event that will force the European governments to deal with the Islamic problem. That day could easily take the form of a nuclear attack on Israel or a chemical attack within Paris, London, Brussels, Bonn, etc. On that day, just as was the case in 9/11, the enemy will be Islam and the multiculturalism that has allowed it to separate itself from civilization.

Real leaders, not the pretenders currently in power in much of Europe, will rise - and they will deal with the Islamic problem not as a set of criminal acts but as the act of war that it is. Mosques will be closed, Imams will be jailed in prisons like GITMO (if they are lucky), and war will be declared against Iran and Syria. However, until that time, the situation will get worse.

The failure to publish the Islamic cartoons is not seen as a sign of respect for Islam but as a sign of fear of Islam. The terrorists are being embolded. The criticisms of the cartoons by the political leaders in Europe are not seen as encouraging sensitivity for Islam but pandering to Islam. The terrorists are being emboldened. The acceptance of a constant set of threats under the banner of freedom of speech is tantamount to national suicide. The terrorists are being emboldened.

I have never seen in my lifetime a worse situation for the Western World, but I have seen the appeasement and cowardice that has led to War in the past. "Peace in our Time" was then and is now a prayer not a reality.
DnNeal
Posted: 2006/2/21 16:56  Updated: 2006/2/21 16:56
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/9/26
From: Tennessee
Posts: 1302
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
Brilliant summary,

I suspect you are correct warmac9999. It will probably take something enormous to mobilize European leaders.

We grow so accustomed to inaction if irritants grow gradually.

Neal
warmac9999
Posted: 2006/2/21 16:58  Updated: 2006/2/21 17:02
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/2/16
From:
Posts: 1463
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
If you Brits on this blog are smart, you'll tell your MPs to take action to preserve British freedoms....and this means expelling all Muslims who advocate a separate state for them within the British Isles!
----------------------------------------------------------
The current governments in Europe are treating the rising Islamic threat as if it were criminal in nature. The British Parliamentary leaders will not take action anymore than the other leaders of Europe because they fear the consequences. (Name one leader of repute condemning the Islamic threat within the UK. I guess the dead Winston Churchill is about the only one. Yet --- I can find plenty of Muslims running around threatening the government and the British people.)

I find it amazing that Europeans are so critical of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan - would they rather fight in the streets of Paris? I guess they would. The Islamic community burned and rioted (an insurrection by another name) in France for over three weeks last year. 10,000 cars were burned and the property damage was in the tens if not hundreds of millions. One poor elderly Frenchman lost his life but that is a small price to pay if you are going to appease.

I'll consider Europe serious about the war on terror when I see the police and military budgets rise substantially. Chirac's warning about French use of nuclear weapons is just rhetorical crap by an individual who was bought and paid for with Islamic oil from the mid-East.
essodalori
Posted: 2006/2/21 17:05  Updated: 2006/2/21 17:05
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/9/15
From:
Posts: 4904
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
The Brits are not only losing their spines, they are coming to forget why men have them to begin with.

Sad.

With Christian love,

Essodalori
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2006/2/21 17:18  Updated: 2006/2/21 17:18
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
From the Book of Words:

Quote:


LUNACY

lu;n@si/
M16.
[from LUNATIC: see -ACY.]

1. Insanity, orig. of an intermittent kind supposed to be brought about by the changes of the moon. Formerly in Law, such mental unsoundness as interferes with civil rights or transactions. M16.
commission of lunacy Hist. a commission, issuing from a court, authorizing an inquiry as to the soundness of a person's mind. Master in Lunacy Hist. a legal officer with the duty of investigating the mental condition of people alleged to be insane.

2. Mad folly, great foolishness. L16.


Thus saith the OED.
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2006/2/21 17:38  Updated: 2006/2/21 17:38
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
The French made their bed with International Socialism and the insane canard that speaking French (i.e., francophone) somehow transmutates an Arab into a Frenchman.

While pagan in its roots, there is a certain wisdom in "si vis pacem para bellum".

"Liberte, Fraternite, Egalite" is a suicide pact.
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2006/2/21 17:46  Updated: 2006/2/21 17:49
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
With Dubai World Ports in control of the six busiest US ports (including my own Philadelphia), it will be a simple matter to devastate in a single strike the 75% of the US population that lives in coastal cities.

And for those unfamiliar with the authentic Book of Common Prayer, Chamberlain's "peace in our time" came from an earnest but wishful interpretation of the Order for Evening Prayer. (The following praise was inserted after the unlikely defeat of the Spanish Armada.)

Quote:

Then the Priest standing up shall say,
O Lord, shew thy mercy upon us.
Answer. And grant us thy salvation.
Priest. O Lord, save the Queen.
Answer. And mercifully hear us when we call upon thee.
Priest. Endue thy Ministers with righteousness.
Answer. And make thy chosen people joyful.
Priest. O Lord, save thy people.
Answer. And bless thine inheritance.
Priest. Give peace in our time, O Lord.
Answer. Because there is none other that fighteth for us, but only thou, O God.
Priest. O God, make clean our hearts within us.
Answer. And take not thy Holy Spirit from us.
essodalori
Posted: 2006/2/21 18:02  Updated: 2006/2/21 18:02
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/9/15
From:
Posts: 4904
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
"Liberte, Fraternite, Egalite" is a suicide pact.

---

It's just another way to make Robespierre sound good.

With Christian love,

Essodalori
BrChip
Posted: 2006/2/21 18:10  Updated: 2006/2/21 18:10
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/11
From: Anglican Mission to South Dakota
Posts: 301
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
"It will probably take something enormous to mobilize European leaders.
We grow so accustomed to inaction if irritants grow gradually."

And we are familiar with this illustration as the way to cook a live frog.


Let's also remember, from the Scottish litany, "From ghoulies,and ghosties,
and four legged beasties, and things that go bump in the night,
Good Lord, deliver us."

Kyrie eleison.
Christe eleison.
Kyrie eleison!
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2006/2/21 20:11  Updated: 2006/2/21 20:25
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
Should Robespierre be looking up from his hell-hole at the CoE and J'ECUSA!, he is no doubt having a good laugh at our expense.

Clerics such as ours no doubt bolster his case in the mind of the common man...
Anonymous
Posted: 2006/2/21 22:00  Updated: 2006/2/21 22:00
 Re: ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a s
Esso,

Robespierre must be smiling now

G-man
Causidicus
Posted: 2006/2/22 17:39  Updated: 2006/2/22 19:52
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/3
From:
Posts: 1095
 "Make Mine a Millet" - NOT
The islamofascists have accomplished what two millenia of warfare could not.
They have turned the Brits into continentals.

But then, I never thought the C of E would surrender to the sodomites, either.

What a craven time this is in European history!
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