"The Episcopal Church, through its General Convention, has long recognized alcoholism as a treatable human disease, not a failure of character or will."

---

More bumblegum from the 'we'll never hurt your feelings' bumblegum church.

Alcoholism is NOT a treatable disease; once an alcoholic, ALWAYS an alcoholic.

The only solution to it is to go cold turkey, and give up alcohol forever - and yes, that DOES take a lot of character and will (especially when one is greatly tempted to it, as all alcoholics are [for it feels good, and provides an escape from the realities of this world]). Character and will are also required with chastity, or any other hard discipline.

Notably also, the rate of alcoholism (and drug use and other psychological disorders) among homosexuals is far greater than among sexually normal men and women.

I wish 'Bishop' Robinson well, and hope that he will have the character and will to give up both his drinking and his sexual sin.

With Christian love,

Essodalori

Esso,

I usually find myself in agreement with your posts, but in this case I would rather step back and say it is good when any alcoholic accepts treatment.

Cold turkey may work for some, but most need a behaviour changing intervention such as rehab, and lifelong support from those around them.

I have no particular use for the very selfish Mr. Robinson, but there are many suffering from this disease who need encouragement, not judgement.

RalphM

Agreed, Ralph, that alcoholics need love and help and encouragement to stay dry. That is not treatment. They are still alcoholics.

Rehab simply helps the alcoholic accept the need for going cold turkey, and saying bye-bye to that particular crutch and desire - which their bodies and minds can no longer control, once tasted.

And yes, true love for alcholics DOES mean judgment when they start redrinking. Such inevitably causes great, great suffering for those around them, often over very many long years. That selfishness should be pointed out to them, and the suffering it creates, for it is VERY real.

Alcoholics need to accept the fact that they have to give it up, and then do it.

That takes character, and will, and true love for self and others. Faith in God can help A LOT.

With Christian love,

Essodalori

with the encouragement and support of my partner, daughters and colleagues,

I wonder if Vicky considers his ex-wife a "colleague"?

I have thought of as a failure of will or discipline on my part, rather than a disease over which my particular body simply has no control,

Well...no one forced him to take the first drink so his disease started with a lack of chararcter and will. Vicky didn't one day get a biopsy done and discover alcholism in his system.

Whatever pressures he allowed himself to succumb to the fact remains is he did not bow his will and character or lack of it to the will and character of the Lord. Same goes for his homosexuality.

EPISCOPAL CHURCH RECOGNIZES OFT-NEGLECTED ‘DISEASES’—GAY BISHOP COMES OUT AGAIN

By Joseph Uvthevali

February 13, 2006—Betty Ford Center

The Episcopal Church U.S.A. (ECUSA) today named a host of traditional vices as “diseases” and said that anyone guilty of these “sins” will no longer be held responsible, since the perpetrator clearly is not blameworthy: the act itself is what forced the sinner to stumble.

In a related development, the homosexual bishop of an east coast state came out of the closet today to declare that, unfortunately, he is still a homosexual. BUT, now he is an alcoholic.

This changes everything.

“I used to like to drink and have sex with men more than I liked to have sex with men and drink, but then I got to thinking about it and I said, hey, why not just admit that you have a weakness for both and at least one of them will be named a disease by some psychiatrist over here on the eastern buddhistic coast…with all these intellectual elitists; good God, IT’S A VIRTUE! IT’S A VIRTUE. I’M HERE AND I’M QUEER!”

Gene Robinson, the homosexual alcoholic church destroyer who succeeded in disrupting an entire branch of the worldwide Anglican Communion, has decided that it wasn’t his fault. It was the beer’s. And the scotch’s. And the bourbon’s. It was all their fault. Damn sure wasn’t his fault. Nothing’s his fault.

Robinson also confessed to having the disease of lying, cheating, committing adultery, hating and murdering.

“I admit it,” he said. “These diseases are all to blame. It’s just not me when I get plastered with my homosexual lover on a Saturday night.”

The Standing Committee of Mr. Robinson’s diocese issued a statement in which they said, “We are so proud of our alcoholic homosexual bishop. It’s not his fault. Those terrible beers and scotches and bourbons are to blame. And our bishop is SO courageous. It takes real courage to admit you’re a homo alcoholic. You think a soldier needs courage? Try being a homosexual alcoholic! WHAT COURAGE!”

Reporters were seen huddling trying to figure out what the statement meant.

JOTV

Of course, nobody is responsible for anything, especially something they must purchase/open/pour into the opening in the face known as the mouth. Everyone is a victim, blah, blah,....

ANYWAY, on a completely unrelated item.
FOR TRADITIONAL CHURCHES AND CLERGY WHO USE THE 1928 BCP!!!
The American Prayer Book Society now as NEW Altar Service Books! We have one and they are great. Very well done. They are $150.00 unless you qualify as a "small parish or mission".
For more info you can get them at 1-800-727-1928.

Pax, Sam +

I apologize for the "water cooler" post.
Therefore i remove the picture.

And replace with;

Alcohol Dementia
Memory, Learning and Other Cognitive Skills
Excessive drinking over a period of years may lead to a condition known as Alcohol Dementia, which can cause problems with memory, learning and other cognitive skills.
Alcohol has a direct affect on brain cells, resulting in poor judgment, difficulty making decisions and lack of insight.

Alcohol Dementia is also sometimes known as Wernicke-Korsakoff Syndrome, which is really two disorders that may occur independently or together.
Wernicke's disease involves damage to multiple nerves in both the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord) and the peripheral nervous system (the rest of the body). It may also include symptoms caused by alcohol withdrawal. The cause is generally attributed to malnutrition, especially lack of vitamin B-1 (thiamine), which commonly accompanies habitual alcohol use or alcoholism.

Korsakoff syndrome, or Korsakoff psychosis, involves impairment of memory and intellect/cognitive skills such as problem solving or learning, along with multiple symptoms of nerve damage. The most distinguishing symptom is confabulation (fabrication) where the person makes up detailed, believable stories about experiences or situations to cover the gaps in the memory. Korsakoff psychosis involves damage to areas of the brain.

Warning Signs
This list of warning signs of possible dementia are published on the Alzheimer's Outreach web site:


Personality changes

Frustration, Anger, and Irritability
Emotional Lability, Unstable moods
Paranoia, Suspicion, and Jealously
Insensitivity to Others
Flat Emotional Responses
Loss of Inhibitions
Fear of Being Alone
Loss of problem-solving skills

Inability to do Familiar Tasks
Inability to Make Connections
Inability to Make Decisions
Inability to Initiate or Complete a Project
Communication problems

Problems Finding Words
Inability to Follow a Conversation
Repeating the Question
Disorientation

Loss of a Sense of Time
Getting Lost in Familiar Areas
Not Recognizing People
New and unfamiliar behaviors

Neglect of Self or Property
Hoarding


For rest of the article click here

ECUSA bulldinky:

There's nothing wrong with a man who copulates with a man's anus; it's normal. We cannot make any moral judgment about anything a man is inclined to (the opposite, by the way, of Christianity).

We can make no moral judgment about a man who won't stop imbibing alcohol; it's a disease.

====

The truth:

Homosexuality is a serious emotional and psychological disorder, which can be prevented and cured in many cases. The first step in that process is chastity. What we are drawn to is not necessarily good; much of what we are drawn to is bad. Homosexual acts are depraved and bad (for self, for the other, for children and for society).

Alcoholism is a characteristic of the mind (brain rewiring) and body (chemistry) of people who can no longer control their drinking. It can only be controlled by controlling ones drinking. Any alcoholic who continues to drink harms himself and others. Such is bad and selfish.

With Christian love,

Essodalori

Alcholism may be a disease but it is one that has been "chosen." When one's body is treated to a glass of wine every afternoon at five o'clock, the body chemistrey is modified. Changed, if you will.

That afternoon glass of wine soon says, "MORE!" A potential alcholic in the making. When "MORE" is satisfied, you have one on the raod to self distruction.

Alcholism is not a disease from which doctors or medications can effect a cure. It is a chosen way of life which must be conguered with God's help. I'm not sure VGR is familiar with THE God who will be his helper.

jj

KIDS WEIGH IN ON ALCOHOLIC GAY CLERGYMAN

The nephew and niece of Egyptian journalist Joseph of the Valley recently heard the news of Gene Robinson being admitted to the Betty Ford Center.

Sarah: That gay bishop--he's really courageous.
Billy: How so?
Sarah: He admitted he's a homosexual.
Billy: If I admit that I stole from your piggy bank, does that make me courageous?
Sarah: No. But he's an alcoholic, too.
Billy: So if I have an alcohol habit, that makes me a hero?
Sarah: I guess it has to be dramatic. You have to rob a bank or kill somebody, then tell people you have a disease.
Billy: When I grow up, maybe I can do some really bad stuff and they'll just call it a disease.

JOTV

Yeah, and following up on what JumpinJ has rightfully said:

It is now know that the bodies of teens are far more susceptible to becoming alcholic than are adults. Thus, the earlier a kid drinks, the more likely he will become alcoholic.

With Christian love,

Essodalori

This is really shameful - Is Vickie Jean trying to curry acceptance for homobuggery by citing his alcohol problem???

Depravity is a bottomless pit.

On alcoholism, think George W. Bush.

There is character, and will and love of God and family - and of course, the giving up of the hooch.

With Christian love,

Essodalori

Esso,

If God can take someone who was an alcoholic and fashion a President from an alcoholic then I know there is hope for me.

G-man

The acceptance of alcoholism in an Episcopal minister is part of the slippery slope problem that has led us to the homosexual debacle. At one time, a minister was required to be as perfect a representation of a Godly man as possible so that the laity could have someone to use as a role model for themselves and their children. Under these limitations, a priest who stumbled around as a drunk was a serious problem for the church he pastored because he was obviously not a role model. Essentially, at that point, his pastoring was finished and he was expected to leave his church and repent of his sin. At some point, the Episcopal church changed the requirement for role model ministry and accepted the idea that an alcoholic who had reformed could again pastor a church. The idea of the less than Godly but more human and failed man speaking from the pulpit was born and continues to this date.

Robinson's election to the head of the Episcopal diocese in New Hampshire demonstrates that a single apparently compassionate step can and often will lead to horrendous consequences. To put it another way, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I wish Robinson all the luck in the world. There may be some hope here, inasmuch as he appears to recognize that God did not make him an alcoholic, or that if God did, with the help of God he can make himself into something better. The first step is to recognize that one has a problem; the second is to recognize that the problem is behavioral, of one's own making; and the third step is to take responsibility for one's behavior and not blame others.

Having said that, one of the seeds of our present decadent state in matters of human sexuality came about as a result of innovative excuse-making about alcoholism. Somewhere along the line, everyone became afraid of judgment, a sort of "alcoholicphobia," the precurser to the present-day fiction of "homophobia". For example, what a comfort it was to my own mother when she came to believe that my brother's alcoholism was a disease, like something he'd caught from a doorknob, or something he was born with. It was then no longer a sin, moral failure or character deficiency; he was no longer really to blame; it was just bad luck, an unfotunate combination of genes. At that point, he could be thought of as medically "sick" and it became the job or responsibility of those around him to get him "the cure." We tried, and others eventually succeeded, but when it came down to it, short of incarceration, the only doctor with the cure for alcoholism is the patient himself (aided more often than not by reliance upon some "higher power" invoked through a twelve-step program). It is THEIR faith which can make them well.

Funny, isn't it, that though society has sought to remove the stigma of alcoholism and any judgment of the alcoholic as a "sinner," a "failure" at controlling his impulses, the empirical data is "in" that alcoholism begins with that first drink; that it is nurtured when the alcoholic succumbs to the momentary and pleasurable temptation to alter his consciousness regularly and thus makes it a habit (though that voice in his head says, "stop"); that the habit, born of weakness, then possesses and enslaves the alcoholic as it becomes a dependency which alters the alcoholic's perception of his own identity; that alcoholism ultimately leads to disease and death unless it is stopped; that change is possible only if the alcoholic wants that change first; that the alcoholics who succeed most often turn to some "higher power" for strength; and that every alcoholic has to fight for the rest of his life not to succumb to his old ways and live a healthy and sober life as God intended.

The parallels are obvious to anyone with any insight, discernment and wisdom.

Perhaps fr steve could go and minster to him

‘G-MAN’ ENTERS PRESIDENTIAL RACE

In an unusual development indirectly related to today’s news in which a homosexual clergyman said alcohol caused all his problems, Italian race car legend Giovanni Andretti—known as “G-man” to bloggers who are not certified by NASCAR or any other international racing body—threw his hat into the ring and declared himself a candidate for President of the United States (POTUS).

“As POTUS, I will lower taxes and raise speed limits,” said Giovanni, in a written statement distributed on the world-famous blog site VirtueOnline. "We will also be drawing up plans to send all sex perverts to Mars."

Alcoholism is an addiction, and it is akin to the addiction caused by drugs.....a habit which is extremely hard to kick. Once it grabs you, you're hooked! While I otherwise have little use for Mr Robinson and his homosexuality, I do applaud him for taking this first step. He has eleven more to go, once he completes the first phase. The road on which he's about to embark is a long one. Let's hope that he has a long talk with God somewhere along the way!

Many people have a problem with alcoholism, and acknowledging that it is a problem and trying to correct it is the first step. It is commendable that Bishop Robison is willing to admit he has a problem and is trying to change his behavior. I pray that he is successful.

My question, however, is about the discernment process in New Hampshire. Apparently, Bishop Robinson has had this problem "for years." We were told that the people in NH knew him, we should trust their judgment, etc., but they apparently missed the fact that he is an alcoholic.

Whether alcoholism is a moral failing or not, I don't think anyone would intentionally choose an unreformed alcoholic as the leader of an organization, much less a church, if they knew he was still drinking. I wonder about Bishop's Robinson candor during the selection process and the people of NH for not looking more carefully at their candidate. Somehow I doubt that General Convention would have voted for him in 2003 if he had been open about having a drinking problem.

I hope none of the Presiding Bishop candidates is an unreformed alcoholic and I hope there is some sort of screening process in place to prevent electing one.

"We will also be drawing up plans to send all sex perverts to Mars."

Correction

Taxpayers will demand "to the Moon";

one of these days...

Be aware -- the liberals will prop VGR up as a hero. Look at what Integrity has already said:

--

Dear Colleagues in Christ,

I am writing to share with you the following letters received this morning from the Diocese of New Hampshire. Please keep our brother +Gene in your prayers for a powerful anointing of God's healing grace as we continue to give thanks for his ministry as a Bishop in the Church of God and for his exemplary witness of courageous and faithful honesty.

Susan Russell
President, Integrity USA

"Alcoholism is an addiction ..."

____

Precisely. So too are many, many other escapist behaviors (and my family members and I have tried many of them). Spending can be an addiction; eating can be an addiction; hoarding money can be an addiction; work; chocolate; coffee; sleeping; nicotine; running; sex; the list goes on and on. How many recovering alcoholics or former smokers does one know who replace one bad habbit with another (like over-eating)? (There's some merit to this approach if the habits grow progressively less deadly, but the underlying flaw remains the same.)

All these compulsive-addictive behaviors really are all the same in the way they work; the only difference, as I see it, is that, once acquired, some (the chemical ones) are harder than others to "kick." If people understood their own tendency to compulsive-addictive behavior better, they would be able to control themselves better and they would demand more of others who have spun out of control.

Dr_stoneridge (not)

ValleyJoe nails it, "Gene Robinson, the homosexual alcoholic church destroyer who succeeded in disrupting an entire branch of the worldwide Anglican Communion, has decided that it wasn’t his fault. It was" -- booze!

Gene Robinson is a liar! He has lied to his wife and two daughters. He has lied to God! He has lied to the Acglican Communion. And he has lied to himself in a self fulfilling deceit that confirms the actions of God's wrath in thowing Gene Robinson to himself. (Rom 1:18-32) No tears should be shed for this monster!

If he confesses and repents he may be forgiven. If not he deserves his place in the lineup of those in ECUSA's episcopate who will be tossed into the lake of fire! (Rev 19:20)

So, I'm slightly confused. There must be more to this story.

Did anyone in the Diocese, other than his 'partner', know that he was an alcoholic? What about the standing committee....did they just overlook this fact or was/has he been in denial over being an alcoholic? This should be quite an embarrassment to the Diocese and Standing Committee....obviously he didn't become an alcoholic in the last few years.
I guess they were so consumed with the fact that he would be the poster boy for the liberal revisionist church that it really didn't matter what condition his life was in.

"No tears should be shed for this monster!"

---

Hey Otis,

I'm usually foursquare with ya, but on this: Vickie HAS committed monstrous and heinous acts, and spread incredible evil and confusion. For any who have done that, tears should be shed. He is a truly lost man.

Indeed, anyone who's got perverse sexual desires, has destroyed a marriage and family, as well as a whole Christian denomination, doesn't know diddly about real Christianity, and has led thousands into sin, might start drinking.

Where we do agree: He needs to repent, before it's too late.

Little Vickie: TRY THINGS GOD'S WAY FOR ONCE!

With Christian love,

Essodalori

"Over the 28 days I will be here, I will be dealing with the disease of alcoholism-which, for years, I have thought of as a failure of will or discipline on my part, rather than a disease over which my particular body simply has no control, except to stop drinking altogether.

During my first week here, I have learned so much. The extraordinary experience of community here will inform my ministry for years to come. "
quote by VGR
------------------------------------------------------
Have we plumbed the depths of stupidity and carnality yet?
Once was a time when a good old fashioned Seminary education and formation process "informed" a man's ministry for years to come...a love for the Scriptures, a passion for preaching, a love for God, a desire to see men and women embrace faith in Christ and follow Him a disciples, impeccable life, a model to both his flock and the wider community, irreproachable in both personal and public life...Hmmmm how far have we drifted in NH. A drunken sodomite with no desire to accept responsibility for moral and spiritual failure.

Homosexuality is not a disease. Alcoholism is NOT A DISEASE. Don't give me that crap. Over eating is not a disease...obesity is not a disease. It is a result of incredibly selfish lazy slobbish fools who consciously choose to put food..or alcohol...or cigarettes...or drugs...or other mens body parts...into their mouths/bodies. Western society is doomed.
"Thr fruit of the Spirit is...SELF CONTROL"

Oh boy! Now what is he going to do at the gay bars? Next thing you know, we will be hearing about him going up to Brokeback Mountain with someone other than "his partner" and that will be okay too.

Xecusa

In his 28-day program, I fervently hope that Mr Robinson will have some exposure to the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. There he will learn that alcoholism is not some elegant disease like hemophilia or gout, but is a "spiritual malady," a deadly moral illness. It has no cure, but (paradoxically) a miraculous recovery. That recovery is not achieved in 28 days, but in a lifetime of vigorous action, "going to any lengths," embracing both a spiritual awakening and a moral housecleaning. He will also learn that there is little hope of recovery until he has totally "hit bottom." Regrettably, the tone of his note sounds more like he has gone to a fat farm or a dude ranch. I sincerely wish him well.

Respectfully, essodalori, I disagree!

I believe strongly so does God! Bishop Gene Robinson isn't just a "lost man". He is the devil incarnate, a man indwelled with Satan's spirit.

I must be frank with you, so I ask your forgiveness beforehand for what I have to say.

ECUSA is lost to the homosexuals. It is apostate! The reason why it is apostate is because multiple generations of bad men in ECUSA's episcopate -- like Spong -- have misled and defiled the church.

But the greatest problem is the fact many loving Saints -- rationalizing the goodness of God -- embracing a sacred liturgy -- have let a corrupt episcopate destroy a once great flagship of Christ's church.

He is not "just lost"? No, he is Satan's agent and he as Satan's agent has defiled His church. (Mark 4:15)

Into the lake of fire will be God's judgment unless he confesses and repents -- a very unlikely event.

Again, essodalori, forgive me if I have offended you or any other true Christian Saint reading this reply. (Matt 7:26)

Be wary of never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity!

Folks, Robinson has a problem that he is owning up to. I agree with anyone who wants to condemn him for his sodomistic activities and his heresy. He's done immense damage to Christendom.

But ... now is the time not to point the finger and say ... whatever.... This is war. No war was won by gloating. Now is the time to take one perversion of the will of God and show how this manifestation of his character, which he acknowledges to be self-destructive, is part and parcel of the very behavioral weakness that prompted his homosexuality.

Between you and me, the orthodox, we need to agree to say to the revisionists, "What? Robinson's a drunk? You don't say! Who would have thought it possible? Tell us now, does he finally get it? God didn't make him a drunk! He made himself a drunk! What's the difference between always wanting to do you-know-what to another man and always wanting to drink? Why is one sin and the other not? Tell us, New Hampshire, what distinguishes the two ..."

Never look a gift horse in the mouth! Lighten up. Go for the ACKNOWLEDGED weakness with compassion, not with condemnation! Sure, call him the gay alcoholic, LINK THE TWO SINS (they are linked by their very nature), but now is not the time to gloat, now is the time to say "YOU SEE ...!"

But here's a valid question:

Why is nothing -- Nothing! -- ever Vickie Jean's personal fault????

"God made me homosexual"

"I was walking past the liquor store one day and caught a bad case of alcoholism"

"It's bigots tearing apart J'ECUSA! and the AC, not me!!!"

Anyone start to see a common theme here?

There's a reason why the Good Lord tells us (1) to be chaste, (2) to be sober and (3) accept Christ's yoke because it is lighter than Man's:

BECAUSE WE ARE ALL SUSEPTIBLE TO SIN AND THE BEST WAY TO STOP SINNING IS NOT TO DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!

If Vickie never buggered that first boy; if he never chugged that first whiskey (out of guilt or shame of the first act?) etc etc etc, he would not be in the train wreck of a life he is.

Sorry Vickie Jean ol' girl: you get no sympathy from this sinner. "WE TOLD YOU SO!" and you ignored us all.

You made your bed, now lay in it.

JotM hath spoken!

JOTV, another excellent and too true parody!

By the way, have you heard the one about the man who sits down at the bar and asks for a shot of JD?

Too bad if you haven't because it's funny, appropos of Vickie Jean's latest "Shazzam!" moment and not printable at VOL

Bishop Robinson, myself being a good loyal and never prodical son of the Episcopal Church, am for once in my life, Ashamed of you.

Why are you trying to stop such a beautiful thing as Alcoholism? Have you never read "what God has joined together, let no man seperate"? And God has clearly chosen to join you and alcoholism together, this is undeniable. It is also undeniable that God wants nothing more than you to be at your best. So, bishop, if one and one makes two, you must see the error of what you are doing. Repent Bishop, repent and embrase who God made you to be. Alcoholism may be a disease, it may also be genetic. But the diversity is worth holding on two, bishop. It may destroy your private life, but diversity is the wave of the future, worth holding onto, at any cost. You are destroying ECUSA for the same reason, and I salute you in your efforts good bishop. Be who God made you to be, don't feel like you need to "conform to this world".

I however, believe that you have a terrific ability, now that everyone knows, to enter into a bar ministry. Minister to those alcoholics like only an alcoholic can, bishop. It is prophetic remember? You are prophetic remember?

Yours in Christ,
jacob

PS: This is Satirical, as in, I do not believe the giberish I just wrote.

Sam, I read about that in Mandate. Does it include the family prayers at the back?

Teenagers are suseptible to many more things than grown adults, as known by tyrants and dictators the world over. "Give me control of the schools..."

Were he Satan's agent, Satan would not suffer his checking into rehab.

Those who would gloat over this are missing an opportunity!

I will stack my commitment to opposing the homoanalfecal and heretical sodomists up against anyone's on VOL (save Esso, my admiration for whom defies words), but this is a chance to EXPLOIT a weakness in the enemy, to use it to make a point. Do not gloat over it. If you do, you play into the other side's hands! Beware, brethren. Use this foible as a sign that homoanalfecal sodomy is precisely the same sort of sin!

Robinson is a sinner, yes. He now has two problems, yes. This latest problem is of the same category as his other! That is the point! Robinson, God did not make you a lush! YOU made YOURSELF a lush! Were this not so, you would not be checking into rehab! God does not want you to continue to be a lush! God wants you to abstain. So too, God did not make you to indulge your propensity for sodomy, which is just as deadly. God made you to overcome it. In faith, you can abstain from sodomy more easily than you can from alcohol! Seek the transformative power of Christ and you will see!

Look, I very much doubt that Robinson will prove anything but a "goner" when it comes to sodomy (for he's got too much "invested in it"), but this is a new front in the war. USE IT! USE IT to show his supporters the error of their theology! Do not squander this opportunity with gloating and finger-pointing. The man was a sinner, sodomy or not. This doesn't prove he was a sinner or his depravity. We're all sinners! This proves the nature of his sin, that he was not made to sin, and that he can, with the help of God, overcome his disposition!

Again, I don't doubt he's too far gone to repent from his sodomy. BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT! The point is that he has not said, "I cannot change! God wants me to pickle myself." He has said, "I can change."

We must challenge the Left to reconcile the two. They will not be able to do it. Condemn them both, even when he seeks to solve one, and you look like the very Puritans the late Fr_steve so often accused us of being. I wish Robinson success in this effort. AND IF HE SUCCEEDS, I URGE HIM TO FOLLOW PRECISELY THE SAME APPROACH WITH HIS OTHER GLARING SIN, WHICH IS A MANIFESTATION OF THE SAME CHARACTER DEFICIENCY. WITH THE HELP OF GOD, AS HE CONQUERS ONE, SO HE CAN CONQUER THE OTHER! This is what it means to love the sinner and hate the sin. Let us remember it.

The thought occurs, doesn't it G-Man. But why go to the trouble of rehab for mere alcholism? Think about it:

What is the benefit to sobriety if you're already homosexual? To improve one's health????

Isn't that rather like polishing the paint on a car you're taking to the junk yard? Or redecorating the interior of a condemned building?

Nope, I can quite understand why the Wrong Irreverend Mother Vicki Jean drinks. It is the only sane thing he's done in a long time....

And I'll even drink to that.

You and me both G-Man. I was never an "alcoholic" but you'll find my photo next to Binge Drinker in the Undergraduate's Dictionary of American Frat Life.

Otis - He IS infected with evil, and IS lost to it. But he is still worth trying to disinfect, as are all.

And stoneridge is right; we should not gloat.

Vickie - Give up your sodomy and alcohol. Be a real child of God. Live a Godly and holy life, and you will be blessed (and have a chance at eternal life).

With Christian love,

Essodalori

Otis, I agree with your estimation of Vickie Jean. Sorry Esso! But This "thing" is a monster, an apostle of the Evil One. In earlier days we might have described him as possessed.

Perhaps the hard truth of his stupendous complicity in the destruction of his personal body, the body of his family (and likely his daughters who will be, according to statistics, likely to act out with sex, drugs or alchohol given their situation) and of course the Body of Christ.

No, this Homo sapiens has done much damage, and has been warned and counselled at every step. Still, he was determined to implement his wicked, evil plan.

So he gets no sympathy from me! The best this sinner will do is scream, "I TOLD YOU SO!"

If and when he reconciles with his Maker, maybe I'll reconsider my opprobrium but not a second before then.

(My 2¢ says VGR did something especially heinous and "treatment" was a condition of leniency...)

What we must understand in this discussion, from a medical/clinical perspective is that the study and even treatment of alcoholism as a disease does not mean it is truly a disease...such as say...strep throat. It means that there are features of this problem that are similiar to a disease state and that ONE MODEL for study and treatment is the disease model. As with many psychological and physical problems models are used for further research and treatment. Again, if there were a blood test, a throat swab or other biological test we could use to define this (consider cancer cells under the pathologist's microscope) then you could play the "name that disease" game. Otherwise, strictly speaking...Esso is correct. This is not a disease state. That some specialists in the field use a disease model as an approach to diagnosis and treatment is a matter of choice if not convenience. As a family physician, I see alcoholism practically every day. The disease model has inadequacies. DAG/MD

My friends,

We are to judge the acts, not the person, for we know not what we would be like given the same makeup and the same life.

His acts have truly been monstrous and selfish to the core. He is chock full o' pride. But he is worth saving. Jesus drove demons out of people by his love and faith. We should try for the same. Every soul is worth saving and can be forgiven, with true repentance.

Think of the Grinch.

With Christian love,

Essodalori

Joe of the Mountain,

I too am so tempted. I am not "sympathetic". This is not a matter of weakness or forgiveness. It is not for us to be sympathetic or forgive. That is up to God. But neither are we to be like that shell-shocked entrenched infantryman who goes crazy, stands up, rants, shoots off his rifle in the face of the enemy, and gets a bullet in the head. We are to recognize, with coolness, that the enemy has just shown us a weakness. And then we are to exploit it--for all it's worth!

So, to the revisionists out there, to Robinson himself, we say, "Your alcoholism and your sodomy are one and the same [AND THEY ARE!]. You say you can defeat one, and so we say to you that you can defeat the other! God did not make you an alcoholic. You admit this. Neither did He make you a sodomist, now ADMIT this as well. YOU MADE YOURSELF a sinner. As you took that second drink and drank to excess, so too you crossed God's boundary and sodomized! They are one and the same. We are all sinners, all of us. But the difference is that the orthodox among us do not have the effrontery to blame God for our own weaknesses! This is the essence of repentence! You have not blamed God for your weakness for booze; do not blame God for your weakness for other men. Repent!"

Gentlemen please stop with the humour!

We should pity him.

BHTech

You may be right about this Stoneridge. But I have to draw the line somewhere, and it might as well be here. (Remember all those times someone in a high-stakes gamble "blinks"?)

However, I wish you well and God Speed should you reach out to VGR over this opportunity. I will certainly not stand in your way or oppose such a gesture. In fact, I will be happy for you -- and VGR-- should it turn out for the best.

But as for me, at this point, I will be standing my ground.

Blessings,
Joe

I must admit that when I first read the article I had to chuckle to myself. On the other hand after a while, I felt pity for him as it seemed that the person who helped create or sow such seeds of destruction in the church was receiving what was due to him. After all Romans 1 tells us:

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Thus we have this delima. In retrospect he is still a child of God albeit it lost in his own sin, and theology. He is also someone crying out for help in his own way. As is so often the case, sometimes when they do get help and their heart is still with God they change their ways. No one can say for sure if this will happen to VGR, but as usual we say God is in charge and only he knows.

We can only pray for him.

God Bless

BHTech

I guess they were so consumed with the fact that he would be the poster boy for the liberal revisionist church that it really didn't matter what condition his life was in.

To my reading this is the crux of the matter. I am reminded of the deacon out the diocese of Newark a few years back who made the comment about Mother Theresa's need for a sex life to enhance her ministry. It seemed that +Spong was so eager to ordain a gay man that he failed to vet the man's fitness for ministry. Bottom line: He's gay, and that was good enough!

I will pray for +Robinson, for his deliverance from the scourge of alcohol and from the arrogance and hubris that consume him.

Traska

Stoneridge: If you can bring him to repentance you will have done more than anyone yet has done. Be forewarned: There is little as depressing as attempting to reform an addict who has yet to "hit bottom". Many die of their addiction before they do. Including many of the sex addicts known as homosexuals.

Man, I would have given my right arm for that 20 years ago!

Respectfully, essodalori, I am not gloating.

I have no sympathy for him. Once God has forgiven him, I certainly will. But not before!

1Cor 5:13

"Bottom line: He's gay, and that was good enough!"

---

No, traska! Bottom line, he's an active sodomite; he proselytizes youth to engage in sodomy; he left his wife and children to pursue his sin; he believes that we're all going to heaven and that we can't know where morality comes from, and he hates the Catholic Church. Now that's good enough!

And yeah, Causidicus. My experience with alcoholics is that anything other than losing most all that is worth something to them in life (friends, family, spouses, children, jobs, houses, etc.), they don't come to their senses. There have been many alcoholics in my family. To deal with them is a hell that knows no bounds.

My experience is this: NEVER enable them. (Of course, they will always find other enablers.) Eventually, everyone gets tired and disgusted and worn out and gives up. It's only then that there is some hope.

With Christian love,

Essodalori

Hey Otis - I didn't say you were gloating. I know you weren't.

But ya know, whenever you see a misguided sinning amd evil-infected fool, you are still commanded by God to love him (by wanting what is truly best for him).

Let me tell you; this man offends me (nay, sickens me)greatly, for he has committed great evil unrepentantly. I have no respect for him; none. He needs saving; that is why Christ came. Christ came to heal the sick. Vickie is sick.

He needs to come crawling back to the Father, repentantly, from the land of the pig's food. He has chosen his slop. True love demands that we wish that he realize that there is something so much better, ready for him.

With Christian love!

Esso

Joseph,

I don't plan to "reach out" to him! Spare me! I can be every bit as callous and ruthless in my advocacy of the truth as you! I perceive that my prior posts have been misunderstood. Yes, I have said we ought not gloat, but I meant not to gloat about his personal failure. The revisionists have chosen to make him their emblem and he accepted the role. And so, we deal with this as emblematic.

We must not forget that this is WAR! We're not playing games here! This isn't about being right. It's not about one person. It's about what he represents. We're nowhere near celebrating when some ineffectual figurehead suffers a personal defeat. Robinson isn't the enemy. At most, he's but a symbol.

And so, as he chose to be used by our opponents, I would rather USE him. We can all think what we want about him personally. We can all prognisticate all we want. We can all secretly hope whatever we want. But this is bigger than all of our personalities and our own prejudices, and we cannot indulge our personal predilections. We have been handed a propaganda tool, and YOU of all people, Joe(!), should recognize it as such!

So, I say we USE it: "Frank, what a shame you have gone out on a limb for a sodomist who turns out to be an alcoholic as well. How much easier it would be if he had proven to completely pure but for his 'queerness.' How do you feel about the fact that he's also an alcoholic, and been so for years? Did God make him an alcoholic too? Or did Gene do that to himself? What's the Holy Spirit's 'take' on this? Were the 'ancients wrong' about this as well? And if so, why should he check into rehab? Why not revel in his alcoholic nature, the same way he's reveled in his homosexuality? Was the 'reality he inhabited' too much for him? And if God made him to be an alcoholic and loves him just the way He made him, by what Puritanical presumptuousness does Gene think he can undo what your god has wrought? Is a car accident or cirrhosis worse than HIVAids?" The list goes on and on.

The revisionists "flag" has gone down. It is not the flag we must now trample (or take joy in trampling); it is all that the flag represents!

In short, for his own sake and for all our sakes, I hope Robinson sees the light--not just about his alcoholism but about his sodomy as well. But realistically, while he may abstain from drink, I doubt he will abstain from his advocacy of homoanalfecal sodomy. And in either event, as the symbol he has chosen to be, the other side will have to live with him, and we should exploit him as such, not because we would succumb to taking delight in the pathetic weaknesses of one man, but becuase we would use those weaknesses as an example to the remnant which is still subject to reasoning.

The real question though, is whether or not he ever even knew the Father in the first place. You can't crawl back to Him unless you've actually known Him. We make assumptions about people all the time, but assuming he has ever followed Christ because he has a collar on and people voted him bishop doesn't mean that he's a follower.
That's going to take someone pointing out to him those sinful actions and his lifestyle that has separated him from living a holy life.
Probably won't happen by way of Griswold and definitely won't happen from any revisionists much less his own diocese.

"The real question though, is whether or not he ever even knew the Father in the first place."

---

Good point, goonole, good point.

Let us pray that someone, somewhere, will help him to really know our Father.

With Christian love!

Essodalori

If I thought like "I AM Gene", I'd be an alcoholic too.

That is why I choose not to think like "I AM Gene".

Don

Again, respectfully, where we disagree, essodalori, Gene Robinson is not just a man, he is the devil incarnate.

He is a major part of the scheme that has taken ECUSA to epostasy.

Where you wish to save him I say that salvation is impossible. Read Hebrews 6:4-6! Read 1Cor 5:11-13.

Gene Robinson is evil. "Let love be without hypocrisy.
Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good."(Rom 12:9)

Otis,

Truly respectfully also (I love ya, man!), he's a man infected by Satan's evil (and human pride).

Satan cannot be redeemed. Any man can be cleansed of an evil infection (though it is often very, very difficult).

Christ can reem out any evil or demon.

Exorcism, perhaps?

With much true Christian love!

Esso

P.S. Otis - That passage in Hebrews is powerful. I'm thinkin' about it. Perhaps, as Goonole said, he has never really known God to begin with. I'm in synch with the passage in Corinthians. I would never associate with a Vickie Gene, nor would I allow my family to - except to witness Christ to him. I don't respect unrepentant sinners, and we're told not to. Sin never deserves respect. But all people deserve true redemptive love.

Quote:

I guess I did not present myself as I intended. I was addressing the problem where being gay becomes the sole selection criterion for fitness for ministry. Who cares if or what a person believes, how he lives, or anything else. They just hung out a sign that said: Needed: gay person to ordain; nothing else required (or even desired for that matter). I suspect that the folks in NH were so smitten with their progressive ways that they just knew that VGR could do no wrong. After all, he's gay, right? They bought a pig in a poke, being blinded by the illumination of own self-enlightenment.

"After all, he's gay, right? They bought a pig in a poke,"

---

Ya got that right, traska!

With much Christian love!

Esso

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/9963/officeneeds5xa.jpg
"they will have to change the water cooler again"

Gregory,
This is disgraceful conduct for any Christian. How does this bring honor to the Christ you claim to love? Where is your Christian charity?

It's one thing to disagree with Robinson and his theology (I do). It's another to mock anyone's disease, especially those with whom you disagree.

Ya know, Theophilus (good name!),

Gregory probably stepped a bit over the line there.

But we're so much into bizarrosinland in dealing with ECUSA; we're so much drenched in the slime of sin and debauchery, the believers in God and Christ have been so much beaten back there, that one sometimes has to laugh at the human condition just to keep ones sanity, and ones feet on the ground.

Vickie is not funny; he is tragic. I know that Gregory knows the difference. I.e., I vouch for that.

With Christian love,

Essodalori

"Gene Robinson is not just a man, he is the devil incarnate."

"Gene Robinson is evil."

___

Possessed he may be, but he most certainly not the devil incarnate. Things would be much simpler if that were true.

No, he's but a dupe, a stooge. Same is true with Griswold. That tremendous challenge of all this is that the evil runs far broader and deeper than any one person. The Antichrist is not one man, it is many, many men, or at least Satan's work is being carried out by many, many men.

Were Robinson the devil incarnate, why would he go to rehab? Somewhere, something has called him to something better. Yes?

I fear we make a tremendous mistake if we make one person the focus of our righteous anger and derision. But, as a symbol, as the chosen symbol of the revisionists, he is fair game. Attack him as a symbol, but not as a person. Possessed? Yes. But the embodiment of Satan? I think not. Our task is much bigger.

Addictions to either actions or substance fall under the general category of "passions" are are difficult to weed out, even with the full help of clergy, psychological and medical professionals who know what they're doing.

I hope, but don't expect, that VGR will check into a REAL and rigorous 12 step program. I suspect he will go to a more touchy-feely, affirming clinical approach and will be more likely to relapse again and again. I've seen it before. It will take alot for him to set aside his ego, if his speeches are any indication. May God have mercy on him.

"Our task is much bigger."

---

I gotta get to bed, but yeah, stoneridge is quite on target.

Vickie Gene is a symptom of a full-scale revolt against God's loving morality and truth, and transformatory plan for us, and of a full-scale embracement of sin.

He did not grow up knowing true Christian love; he grew up in a church which tells you to do whatever the hell you feel like - especially if it's sexually depraved.

The slimy creature that Vickie Gene has become - the Gollum he now is - is the work of evil that was implanted into ECUSA (and society) many years ago (just like the rings with the creatures of Middle Earth).

Our job, as it always has been, is to fight and overcome the power of the ring and its owner. Our weapons, God's love and light and truth, and the guidance and help of His son, and our Godly intelligence and skills. The reward? Eternal life.

The problem IS bigger. It calls for the Fellowship of the Christ.

With Christian love,

Essodalori

I would agree that Stoneridge is on the right track here. The salient point is that Mr. Robinson's alcoholism and homosexuality are part and parcel of the same disordered process. The poor man lacks the moral fibre and/or proper chemical reactions in his brain to deal with his self destructive compulsions. I wouldn't be surprised if he tuned up a kleptomaniac, pedophile, etc. They all have the same roots from a neuropsychiatric perspective. I doubt that a pure alcohol rehab program will help him in the long run because his disinhibitory personality disorder is so profound- and is already established to extend beyond the bottle.

As for the individual I pity him.

The point is that for the Church to elect and put forward as an example a person who waves one of his disorders as a badge of honor shows that the Church has lost it's moral anchor. I am one of those raising children and we are all moving or planning to get out. Many have mentioned the long term consequences of this for ECUSA. I find the destruction of a great Church and national "icon" very sad.

JAM (MD- for this post anyway)

From the Book of Common Prayer:

O blessed Lord, you ministered to all who came to you: Look with compassion upon all who through addiction have lost their health and freedom. Restore to them the assurance of your unfailing mercy; remove from them the fears that beset them; strengthen them in the work of their recovery; and to those who care for them, give patient understanding and perservering love. Amen.

Week 1

Step 1: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable.

From his statement it is apparent that he is in the first half of Step 1, but I do not believe that he has come fully to believe the second part; i.e., "...that our lives had become unmanageable".

Who knows--this just might be the new beginning that VGR needs. Maybe with sobriety a moment of clarity will also come about (sobriety also requires brutal honesty with self and others, as well as taking personal moral inventory).

For those not familiar with AA and the 12 Steps, I respectfull refer you to AA's Big Book (usually blue in color). Chapter 5 tells How It Works. Most Episcopal and Catholic Church libraries have at least one copy.

28 days is not very long. The motto after treatment has always been "...90 meetings in 90 days". The logic behind 90 in 90 is that it usually takes 90 days for one's mind to clear from the "fog" of alcoholism enough to make a truly conscious decision--clarity.

By "new beginnings" I mean new and RIGHT relationship with God and others and repentance of sin. Our God is a God of New Beginnings (the Lord forgave Peter after Peter had denied Him 3 times).

We should NEVER discount God's ability to restore to wholeness and newness of life the heart of the truly repentant. Perhaps, in a moment of clarity, VGR will clearly see the error of his ways and truly repent. Only God will know His heart.

VGR is just like the rest of us in this respect--he is a sinner fallen from grace. But God's grace is sufficient for all of us. Let us therefore ask forgiveness from our Heavenly Father for our own sins and pray for one another, including VGR.

Prayerfully,
bygrace

duplicate

All us priests know that at the end of Communion it is your duty and privelidge to consume all that remains in the Chalice.Presuming you are like other priests and use Port or something similar(alcoholic anyway) how can you continue as celebrant if this one drink is going to send you off in a binge.How does +Gene stand in this situation?
Brian

I agree with the commentators that suggest we should pray for our brother Gene.

The earlier point is well-made. Where was the selection committee in New Hampshire during this whole process? They surposedly knew Gene--so very well. Did the selection committee know about this alcoholism? If so, why didn't they disclose the alcoholism to the General Conference?

If the selection committee did not know, why not? How well did you do your work if you did not discover alcoholism? Did Gene hide his drinking? What else is he hiding? There is no way the people in New Hampshire can look good in this whole process--and I say this as a former resident of New Hampshire.

Why, or why, Susan Russell, Louis Crew, and +VGR is alcoholism a "treatable" disease but homosexuality is a characteristic that can't be treated--according the the gay lobby, anyway...

The emperor has no clothes.

Hatherly,

" How does +Gene stand in this situation?"

I have no idea.

In regards to the consecrated Eucharist: Consecrated elements of the Eucharist can either be consumed either by the priest or those who assist in the distribution of the Eucharist. The elements may also be placed in the Sacrarium (piscina); thereby, returning them to the earth.

Hey ValleyJoe,

Maybe I'll declare candidacy for POTUS, but only after my wife and I have been blessed with a child.

G-man

ps. my wife was whispering into my ear while I was writing this.

pps. I would actually sign an executive order to convert the speed signs to reflect metric values i.e Kilometres-per-Hour and have the Nation adopt the metric system. The U.S. is losing somewhere in the neighborhood of $100 billion a year using what he have now.

ppps. People fancy driving at triple-digit speeds, so 100 kph = 62 mph.

We may rightly judge "I AM Gene's" public sin, but we have no business judging his eternal soul.

Rail against drunkeness.

Rail against perversion, sodomy, and licentiousness.

Judge the evil in all public officials - Church or state.

But we fall into a trap of Satan's if we assume God's duty of separating the sheep and goats.

Don

Theophilus wrote: This is disgraceful conduct for any Christian, blah, blah, blah.
_____________________________

Ease up, T-man. Gregory's post was humor. God is not disgraced by our humanness, and humor is part of being human. Being dour is not a virtue, being funny is not a sin.

Mock on!

Faithfully,
Gideon

Bah, humbug!

Quote:

Brother Stoneridge, I am waiting for all the facts to be revealed. I've lived long enough to see that sometimes, "rehab" is a ploy designed to curry sympathy for a wrongdoer. Think any number of professional atheletes or politicians that get in trouble -- gambling, wife beating, traffic wreck, public spectacle -- but wiggle out of a prison sentence or big fat lawsuit by playing the "I'm a victim too!" card and "proving" it with a quick stint at the Betty Ford Center.

Nope. Call me suspicious of a very suspicious man. Or whatever he/she/it calls himself.

In the time being, I know he is wicked and evil and this self-serving revelation proves nothing.

(I mean, if he were so righteous, why didn't he just take "an extended vacation" or "sabbatical" or such?????)

Oh I see what you're saying. Make a case study of him. Yes, I think we have that opportunity to demonstrate the duplicity and indulgence of the Revisionists.

Funny though, that alcoholism is percieved as a greater ill than homosexuality. I mean, a drunkard is not that much of a threat to public safety -- except when he gets behind the wheel. Sexual predation has been with us always.

Wow. That is an idea you've got therie Arthurdoxy. We could have a compassionate call

"Gene, you have so courageously put others first and youself last. Now it is time to think of yourself and see to your own well-being before we lose you to the scourge of demon rum. Please, for your own good, step aside, temporarily of course, and do what you need to do. God be with you!"

Theophilus, i take to heart that i have caused distress in your Stand, i humbly respect your request and as such i removed the picture and replaced with important information. Now what do you say??

===========

Gideon, thank you for recognizing the humor of the picture post whereas some will cry still too some laugh.

A healthy mind does have to laugh or cry?


=====
alcohol dementia and/or HIV/Aids dementia seems to be a problem with some of the bishops of ecusa.

Medical authorities can extend the life of either but the brian damage is irreversible...

Respectfully, BHTech, pitying the alcoholic homosexual Bishop of NH is the same as pitying Satan!

The humorous observations serve as expressions of contempt for a man who symbolizes the homosexual takeover of ECUSA by homosexuals.

Such humor stands in contrast to my own comments that strongly indict Gene Robinson for what he is (1Cor 5:13): the devil incarnate as a practicing homosexual who betrayed his wife and two daughters for the wrathful degeneracy of sodomy with another man. (Rom 1:26,27,32)

He is apostate (Heb 6:4-6) and condemned to hell -- to the lake of fire (Rev 19:20). Those who have participated in his appointment (Griswold, et al) are destined for the same judgment, God's judgment.

"""but, Wow! The possiblities that have just surfaced here! Do you get the picture?"""

i get the picture but will refrain from posting them.



ArthurDoxy, i think you see what is likely to happen.
and hope you further the dialogue or watch for developments.

What then qualifies one to being the devil incarnate? Has he just chosen Gene Robinson or are there others that are consumed by him too?

I don't like what he has done and I don't think that he should be a bishop, much less a priest, but naming him as Satan.....I just can't do that.

Possessed by evil? Yeah, I'll go with that.
Redeemable by God? Absolutely. Humans cannot redeem themselves, only God can and with God all things are possible.

Let's not give VGR too much credit. He is more the symbol of a church without standards than anything else. He is the perfect representative of the moral relativist who condemns anyone who passes judgment on behavior and thereby sets a non-standard of "anything goes if it feels good" as a result. Like the secularist who rejects God altogether, the moral relativist rejects the teachings of God. It is little wonder that so many young people fail - they have no standards to either live up to or down to.

There have been a number of comments attempting to link Bishop Robinson's admitted alcoholism with homosexuality, moral relativism, etc. I will only say that in my own experience, I have known several orthodox Christians, including at least one priest, who were alcoholics. I have known conservative members of teetotalling churches who were alcoholics. In my experience, the facts don't support the idea that right belief or living a sexually upright life will keep one from being an alcoholic. We should pray for God to heal Bishop Robinson of this affliction just like we should pray for anyone else suffering from alcoholism.

My problem, as I said in an earlier post, is that his alcoholism raises serious questions about the selection process for bishops in NH and in the Episcopal Church. It also raises questions about how candid Bishop Robinson was during the search process. These would still be problems regardless of Bishop Robinson's theological views or sexual tastes. When the person who was probably the most closely examined candidate for bishop in Episcopal history turns out to be an alcoholic, there's a serious problem with the selection process.

In case anyone's forgotten, the checklist for qualifications to be a bishop is very old:

"For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." (Titus 1:7-9)

Those who are choosing Episcopal bishops need to make sure they are looking at the "not given to wine" and "sober" qualifications regardless of theology or sexual preferences.

"In my experience, the facts don't support the idea that right belief or living a sexually upright life will keep one from being an alcoholic."

---

Hey Jason,

I don't think anyone suggested that. What was noted was this (and it is true):

Homosexuals have a vastly higher incidence of alcohol and drug abuse, as well as of other psychological disorders, than do sexually normal men and women.

You don't have to be homosexual to be alcoholic! But if you're homosexual, you're far more likely to be so.

But I'm with ya on the selection process. As others have said, the fact that he was a divorcee and a sodomite, and presented the possibility of promoting sodomy, he was a shoe-in by the vote of the unChristian 'bishops' in this 'church.' They wanted sodomy; now they're going to have a sodomy cult.

With Christian love,

Essodalori

There is a political motive behind VGR's perfectly timed admission to having a booze problem - Let's all wisen up to the treachery that is afoot

"We should NEVER discount God's ability to restore to wholeness and newness of life the heart of the truly repentant. Perhaps, in a moment of clarity, VGR will clearly see the error of his ways and truly repent. Only God will know His heart."

bygrace. Respectfully, you are ignoring the instruction in Hebrews 6:4-6. Robinson can not be restored if he was once a Christian and has denied the faith by his belief and witness. He is apostate!

"It is impossible to renew" Robinson "again to repentance."

"Soft hearted Episcopalians" can be equated to "soft headed Anglicans" in accommodating the evil represented by Robinson -- as exemplified by his unholy deceit in betraying his wife and two daughters -- by his witness endorsing Sodomy to young people (Outright.org)-- as proven by his overt sexual relationship with his partner in gross sin.

Robinson's right for sexual excess may have been approved by the Supreme Court (Lawrence v. Texas) in a secular sense -- but is denied by the larger Constitution of Christians: the Scriptures endorsed by Tradition and Reason!

As much as I detest what V.Gene Robinson has done to the Church, I feel sorry for him and wish him God's healing grace . . . in every way possible.

That having been said, has anyone considered that a major emphasis in "rehabilitation" is to separate one's self from the stressors which can drive you back to drink?

So, what if one of those major stressors is "functioning as the Bishop of New Hampshire?" Hey, I wouldn't be too surprised if V.Gene decides to "retire for medical reasons" in the not-too-distant future.

Tell me! Just what might such an event mean to ECUSA's compliance with the Windsor Report, the current turmoil in the Church, and the upcoming General Convention?

OtisPage,

I stand by my statement. Respectfully, I am not ignoring the instructions in Hebrews 6:4-6 that you site. You are assuming that he was once a Christian. I make no such assumption--nor can I, for only God knows that.

VGR certainly would not be the first clergy that did not have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. His CHOSEN lifestyle certainly calls that relationship into question, and the state of ECUSA today (Louie Crew, Integrity, et al) proves it.

And yes, I am "soft hearted" about some things--the poor, the hungry, the homeless, widowed, orphans, etc. But I am in no way "soft hearted" or "soft headed" about sin--particularly my own sins (which are the only sins that I personally have any say over). And I certainly cannot force others to stop sinning. I can only be a "voice crying in the wilderness" (of ECUSA) to REPENT, for thy redemption draweth nigh!

Therefore, I respectfully reiterate my previous statement. "We should NEVER discount God's ability to restore to wholeness and newness of life the heart of the truly repentant. Perhaps, in a moment of clarity, VGR will clearly see the error of his ways and truly repent. Only God will know His heart."

Prayerfully and respectfully,

bygrace

bygrace, Good post and i repeat part of it below;
""""Therefore, I respectfully reiterate my previous statement. "We should NEVER discount God's ability to restore to wholeness and newness of life the heart of the truly repentant. Perhaps, in a moment of clarity, VGR will clearly see the error of his ways and truly repent. Only God will know His heart." """"

and i'll go farther;

oh to have a modern day Saul to Paul...

That is also a strong possibility, G-man. And it certainly did not escape my attention when this article was first posted. How does the saying go? We are to be meek as something, but wise as something else? I don't remember how it goes, but I am sure that you do.

What bygrace so eloquently said.

---

And you know, I do quite suspect that Vickie Gene was never a Christian in any true sense - not because of his manifest sin and depravity, but because on theological issues ("We're all goin' to heaven.."), he is completely clueless (and is spreading evil lies).

He is a product of the false gospel of inclusion and tolerance - where what we do and what we become do not matter (which is the complete opposite of Christianity). Satan loves us for who we are; God loves us for who we might become.

I will pray for him to 'get Christ.' He is truly lost, like so many in this world.

It is not for nothing that our Savior told us that the gate is narrow. Sadly, Vickie thinks it is infinitely wide. It's not. Often God humbles us to help us come to Him; I pray that such be the case for Vickie Gene. And I do so because 1) he is potentially redeemable; and 2) we are commanded to love all, even our enemies. I consider him an enemy, but I am commanded to love him anyway.

And to Vickie I again say: You're being stupid and prideful and depraved; try things God's way for once in your life.

With Christian love,

Essodalori

"We are to be meek as doves but wise as serpents."

One final reason why I believe we ought not magnify Robinson's significance in this war is reflected by the following post in the forum section:

“Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” 1 John 2:18

If the Antichrist(s) was/were here, wouldn't they/he:

❑ advocate abortion, proclaim that sodomy was godly, encourage and bless same-sex marriage and condone and celebrate divorce;
❑ prohibit references to God in public discourse but manipulate the symbols of faith for his/their own political ends;

❑ pretend to be faithful and good;

❑ pose, Bible in hand, before a church in the morning and be serviced in a den of iniquity in the afternoon;

❑ be (a) demagogue(s) and rekindle and appeal to old prejudices;

❑ exploit all the weaknesses of democracy by appealing to self-interested partisanship ahead of the greater good;

❑ subvert the will of the people by having unelected judges declare unconstitutional what has always been constitutional;

❑ appeal to envy and jealousy and say that those with more have stolen it from those with less;

❑ encourage licentiousness and claim God made men to be so;

❑ dishonor the faith of his/their forebears by proclaiming a new law and religion of his/their own making;

❑ give felons the right to vote and require no proof of identity at the polls;

❑ give highschool students free condoms;

❑ give drug addicts free needles;

❑ require parental consent for an aspirin but not for an abortion;

❑ advocate partial birth abortion;

❑ prohibit prayers and Christmas carols in public schools yet portray same-gendered "parents" in their curricula;

❑ rewrite history to make the losers winners, the winners losers, agressors victims and victims agressors, the innocent guilty and the guilty innocent;

❑ blame 9/11 on the democratic West and not on the Islamofascists who perpetrated it;

❑ deny that the HIVAids pandemic was the consequence of homosexual promiscuity and drug abuse and claim it strikes everyone regardless of their behavior;

❑ make the chaste and virtuous pay to remedy the consequences of the behavior of the unchaste and sinful;

❑ seek to decriminalize drug use and open the jails:

❑ discourage mothers from raising their children;

❑ teach fornication and sodomy rather than abstinence in the schools;

❑ bestow rights like candy except to those who had no voice and no vote;

❑ make the State, which he/they would control, into our new god;

❑ make everyone a victim and absolve our citizens of any responsibility for their own actions;

❑ deny that our virtues are virtues and claim that truth was subjective;

❑ deny judgment and say we were all equally virtuous;

❑ make no distinction between hating the sin and loving the sinner;

❑ commit perjury though sworn to uphold the law;

❑ discourage the righteous from leading us;

❑ debase our art and music with violence and pornography and broadcast it thoughout our culture;

❑ euthanize the infirm;

❑ mortgage our future for the sake of his present and pit the old against the young and the worker against the pensioner;

❑ in all things, yield to and nurture the wicked?

Consider the foregoing list and ask yourself how many of these actions and positions have been advocated by the Left and its minions, by Hollywood, the ECUSA, the Democratic Party, Feminists ...

This is the modern LEFT, purveyor of death, enemy of life, enemy of the faithful, enemy of democracy, enemy of the unborn, enemy of parents, enemy of children, enemy of the future, enemy of selflessness, enemy of courage, enemy of freedom, enemy of the truth, enemy of God.

The Antichrists are here...

___

Robinson is but one ...

Following in the grand tradition and in the crooked, staggering footsteps of the late, demented James Pike, Vicki Gene has announced that he has grown the third leg of the perverse 3-legged stool of apostasy, perversion and alcoholism. Perhaps once he dries out, he'll make it four for four and go on television and try to have a seance to contact dead relatives. He can get James Van Praagh to substitute for Arthur Ford.

I prefer illness rather than disease. A minor point but to me it accepts responsibility for the part you play in this. I have the utmost sympathy for anyone admitting adiction and trying to get better. But this whole thing looks staged. So I do understand the sense of outrage. And rehab clincs have become big business and very "in". Vicki has used everything in his life to his advantage and for his advancement so why not this? P.S. Vicki it is a failure and a flaw. I know I have it so don't get too cocky.

Respectfully, bygrace, I know your views are sincerely held.

But I lay at your doorstep and others who believe as you do the fact, that as a Christian, a dedicated Anglican, a loving Episcopalian, you and beloved Saints like you have let ECUSA go to the homosexuals.

I say your attitude about Bishop Gene Robinson is typical of the "loving attitude" that has blinded the Saints in ECUSA from the Satanic deeds and witness that has overwhelmed ECUSA – that has allowed Griswold, Spong, et al, to succeed.

The recitation of Matthew 10:16-18, referred to herein on this thread, is on point!

I ask for your forgiveness if I have offended you, bygrace. Otis

(Where's Marion Hatchett when I need help writing a prayer?)

Our Father, throughout history you have sent your angel Rapha-el to heal men and women diseased in body, mind and spirit. You sent your Son Jesus Christ to minister to sinners, to cast out their demons, and to heal them even though they didn't deserve this. To this day, you send Him to heal us even though we are likewise undeserving. Though the Gospel of our LORD Jesus Christ, we know that the Good Shepherd always leaves the flock to rescue the lost sheep.

Send your Strong One to your servant Gene to rekindle the flames of the Holy Spirit within him, that he may feel the warmth of your presence and activity in his life once more. May he learn again how to pray and in doing so know you and walk with you as a child walks with his Father. Pour out your grace upon him, bless him, and comfort him. Show him your redeeming power, show him that he is not lost.

May he repent and ask forgiveness for all of his sins so that you will send your Son to cleanse the temple of his heart of the demons that inhabit it. May Christ transform him completely and dwell within him forever. May he dwell in Christ forever and become one with you.

In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Jason posted earlier asking why in the review process for election was this problem not discovered and dealt with at that time.

Let me suggest the VGR knew the right ansers to all the questions asked. Then when the line was signed he became someone else.

This is what happened in Florida some four years ago. We thought we were getting an orthodox bishop but we got something else. He knew the right answers to all the questions and he got what he wanted.

jj

An excerpt from

http://www.nhepiscopal.org/bishop/bishop.html

says:

"Clergy wellness has long been a focus of Gene's ministry, and in the nineties he developed the "Being Well in Christ," conference model for The Cornerstone Project, and led clergy conferences in over 20 dioceses in the U.S. and Canada."

"I say your attitude about Bishop Gene Robinson is typical of the "loving attitude" that has blinded the Saints in ECUSA from the Satanic deeds and witness that has overwhelmed ECUSA – that has allowed Griswold, Spong, et al, to succeed."

---

Correction, Otis. It is typical of the politically correct and nice-at-any-cost attitude that this has happened. Being nice (and not offending) and true love are very often completely opposed. God and Christ are about true love; ECUSA is about nice and not offending.

In just the same way really poor parents try first to be their kids' friends, rather than to truly love their kids, ECUSA has tried to be friends to all (sodomites, apostates, idiots, etc.). ECUSA abandoned true Christian love long ago. It no longer even knows what it is.

ECUSA couldn't save a soul if its life depended on it. It lost its own soul decades ago.

No one remotely familiar with true Christian love would ever have let ECUSA go to Satan's minions the way it was.

With true Christian love (but no niceness!),

Essodalori

Otis,

This might surprise you (or it might not), but I am not a “cradle Episcopalian”. My father, rightly or wrongly, believed in allowing his children to be “free thinkers”; so, at the grand old age of 8, I proclaimed my “freedom” and didn’t darken the door of an Episcopal church for the next 4 decades. Therefore, I do not feel that I can claim credit or accept blame for “…letting ECUSA go to the homosexuals”.

What I do know is that God is far more forgiving of us than we are, at times, of each other.

With all due respect, it is not a “’loving attitude’ that has blinded the Saints in ECUSA from the Satanic deeds and witness that has overwhelmed ECUSA—that has allowed Griswold, Spong, et al, to succeed”. But rather, it is the spirit of Religion.

The church (pick any ‘flavor’) is full of religious people—they believe in God, but they do not know Him (demons believe in God as well). Religion is hanging “around” the cross, but Christianity is hanging “on” the Cross.

Unfortunately, there are very few sitting in the pews that have fallen in love with Jesus, for that requires a personal relationship with the Risen Lord; and the messages of repentance (turning away from), forgiveness of sin, and salvation are rarely preached. Judgment is never spoken of either. And there is a judgment.

The Bible tells us that without a vision, the people perish. Paul also spoke of the Heavenly vision in Acts 26:18-19. Paul had a vision of Jesus while on the Damascus Road. That vision transformed Paul and gave him a vision/burden for the lost, which, in turn, gave him an eternal vision—“…to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in Christ Jesus”.

The church (the Episcopal Church) has no vision, for very few parishioners have ever experienced their own ‘Damascus Road’. Instead, the church is filled with passionless pew-sitters that are being ‘fed’ empty words from passionless pulpits by passionless priests.

“So, why are you still there?” (to quote my God-fearing, Southern Baptist sister-in-law).

I have a Heavenly vision—my own Damascus Road experience of the power of God’s redemption, healing, and saving grace. Like Paul, I too, have a passion for the lost. It is my responsibility to tell them of God’s saving grace. Some may listen, and some may not. But tell them I must.

bygrace

We are called to preach the Gospel to all sinners and unto all nations.

If anything good should happen in ECUSA in these dismal years, it will be bygrace!

With Christian love,

Essodalori

Esso'man, You got that right!

bygrace's comments are right on target.
(thank you,bygrace, for posting)

May we all be like John the Baptist and Cry out loud and clear; Repent! ...

And that we pray for a modern day Saul to Paul will show on the scene.

prayerfully, gregory

Guess what? Alcoholism is a problem that affects clergy and laity in ECUSA at a high rate. All theological points of view, and life styles, celibate, married, sexually active, heterosexual or homosexual have both active alcoholics and recovering alcoholics in their midst.

Also, alcoholism is a progressive condition. A person does not ussually have his/her first drink and immediately become disabled by alcohol addiction.

Thirdly, DENIAL of having a problem is a major factor in alcoholism. Just ask anyone in recovery and you will be told a tale of denial. Profession, education, and any other factor does not mitigate this.

Many of the comments I have read here have been uncharitable and self-righteous. I applaud the person who reminded us that anyone going into recovery deserves our prayers.

Hello, ddfen, welcome to VOL.

I disagree with your assessment of what's been said here.

Yes, anyone can become alcoholic. However, it IS true that homosexuals are vastly more likely to 1) be alcoholic; 2) drug abusers; and 3) to have other psychological disorders (in addition to the emotional and psychological disorder that is homosexuality). There are numerous studies on such.

Yes, many alcoholics live in denial. At the end of the day, NOBODY can help them, unless they decide to just say no. Many never do, and destroy their lives and the lives of others. Any alcoholic who decides that HE will be charitable and good to those around him will give it up - forever (like George Bush, as an example). Such is just the truth; speaking the truth is always the most charitable thing you can do. Most alcoholics' friends and family are enablers, always trying to 'help' the alcoholic 'cope.' Such is always a mistake - helping the alcoholic prolong the coming of the day when he goes dry. That is what is truly uncharitable. Every alcoholic has to accept that he has a serious problem, and that there is no cure, and that he needs to give up the booze.

Saying any of this in NOT self-righteous. It's the truth. Like a lot of other truths, it's hard to hear for some.

Vickie Gene deserves prayers to help come to grips with his alcohol addiction, just like he needs prayers to come to grips with his sexual depravity and selfishness, and just like he needs prayers to learn something real about Christianity. More than anything, he needs prayers for his soul, which is in grave danger.

With Christian love,

Essodalori

Stoneridge, that post is a keeper for the files.
Joe

Stoneridge,
thanks for the tremendous posting,
on the anti christ checklist.

I also will keep this one for my file.
truthseekr