ADVISOR TO OXFORD BISHOP ACCUSED OF CHILD PORN OFFENSES
By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
OXFORD, UK: (12/6/2005)--A senior vicar and key advisor to the Bishop of Oxford has been accused of a string of child porn offenses.
A bespectacled Richard Thomas, 55, and a married priest, was arraigned in court on Monday and charged with eight counts of making and eight counts of possessing indecent pictures of children, according to the INS News Agency. Thomas neither admitted nor denied the charges during the short hearing at Didcot Magistrates' Court, Oxford.
Thomas, who is Director of Communications for the Diocese of Oxford, advising Bishop Richard Harries said he would defend himself "vigorously" against the charges, which related to two dates in June this year. Thomas was suspended from the Church following the allegations.
At the arraignment Thomas, of Eastern Drive, Abingdon, Oxon., spoke only to confirm his name and address during the four-minute hearing. He was released on bail and ordered to return to the court on January 9.
However a Google search revealed that Thomas has been deeply involved in pagan worship and practices and is doing a doctorate in paganism. According to the Church Times he was awarded a £1,000 ($1,700.00) bursary to meet with modern pagans and to attend their rituals in order to complete his Lambeth degree in wicca.
Thomas, speaking on the New Age Movement and paganism on BBC radio recently, said "I believe the new Paganism has an enormous amount to teach Christianity." A former New Ager countered Thomas, condemning Paganism saying it was individualistic, emphasized self empowerment with no authority and draws on many views at will, recognizing only the self. The lady then said she fled Paganism and converted to Roman Catholicism.
Thomas said her views were "hugely patronizing" and noted that there were some 20,000 initiated Pagans in the UK, adding "we have to learn from paganism." Thomas said there was a great deal of scope for "Christians to enter into dialogue with Pagans both on an individual and a group level than at first we might suppose." Thomas says that it is time for the Church to converse with pagans."
A Norwich InterFaith Link was to hear a lecture "Life in a Tibetan Monastery". a talk by Geshe Tsultim. Sadly Rev. Richard Thomas, who was to speak at this event, has had to cancel because of ill health, said the announcement.
In 2003 Thomas was a featured speaker at Pagan Pride Day UK at Avebury. A notice said events included talks by Michael Dames, Cerridwen Dragon-Oak, Pagan Elders, Rev. Richard Thomas, and others. The Autumnal Equinox Ritual will take place at Sunset! He also spoke at Gay Pride Day 2004.
Thomas has serious pro gay biases. These surfaced recently following a statement by Nigerian Primate Peter Akinola who said, "Homosexuality is so unnatural. Even in the world of dogs, cows and lions, we don't hear of such things."
His attack sparked a furious response from gay rights campaigners in the Church, who demanded a full apology before any further debate could take place.
Richard Kirker, of the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement said, "His words reveal a disgust and contempt for other people that is incompatible with Christianity."
Kirker's views were backed by Thomas, spokesman for the Oxford Diocese whose bishop, The Right Rev Richard Harries, recently sparked the furor over homosexuals in the Church by appointing Canon John as the suffragan bishop of Reading.
"One of the advantages of having the kind of dispute the Church is having in public is that it makes it very clear where people's theology stops and their prejudice begins," said Thomas.
Thomas also started an online religious community, based on the principles of Benedictine monasticism, www.i-church.org , which has already been granted the official status of Parish of the Diocese of Oxford, England.
Thomas began his journey into paganism in January 2003 when he made a formal announcement that he was going to study witchcraft and had received his bishop's blessing for a plan to meet witches and attend pagan rituals.
At the time Thomas said he hoped the research would increase Christians' understanding of paganism and that the work was "something that God has called me to do".
However, he insisted that he would not overtly seek to "convert" pagans to Christianity.
The clergyman set out his plan after receiving a £1,000 ($1,700.00) a month bursary from the Ecclesiastical insurance group to help him study wicca, or modern pagan witchcraft.
He was also helped in his studies by being given a three-month sabbatical from his job as director of communications in the Oxford diocese. Thomas said that his bishop, the Rt. Rev Dr Richard Harries, a senior Church figure, had been "very supportive".
Thomas, who is researching for a thesis on modern Pagan Witchcraft for his three-year Masters qualification under the Archbishop of Canterbury's Lambeth system of degrees, said that his aim was to achieve a "clear, unambiguous and academically moderated picture of Wiccan practice and theology".
He said that Christians often indulged in speculation and made assumptions about pagan rituals, and that this led to a "clouded picture".
He said: "I want to go to the source to visit Wiccan rituals, to meet practicing Wiccans, to record their understanding of their theology and practice, in order to produce a snapshot of the reality and to do some thinking about the theology that underlies it."
"If Christianity is going to interact with people who are interested in witchcraft, druidry or shamanism [religion involving forms of spiritualism] then we are going to have to sit down and talk with people in humility and hear what they have to say about our faith."
Thomas said he saw no conflict between his ministry and his chosen area of study. "God is concerned about, and has love for all," he said. "Our mission is to care for all, and you can't have pastoral concern without backing it up with academic concern."
"For dialogue to take place it is necessary to proceed from a position of humility and understanding rather than from a position of arrogance or fear."
"The Church will benefit from my studies through having me and others who are known and trusted by members of the pagan community and who can be a point of reference."
Thomas said he would make no direct attempts to "convert" pagans to Christianity as he considered that this might make it harder to build a relationship of trust with them. However, he added: "I am more than happy to answer people's questions about the Christian faith."
The Lambeth Degree is a real academic award. Candidates are exempt from both residential and examination requirements and the special awards are made on merit in recognition of recipients' contribution to religious, academic and public life.
An Oxford theologian who asked to remain anonymous told VirtueOnline that, "We in Oxford have long known that this man [Thomas] is not on the side of the angels and is a pro-gay lobbyist and activist. The Bishop of Oxford, frustrated in his desire to promote Jeffrey John has more than one closet gay on his staff. If Thomas is convicted it will go far to destroying the last shreds of credibility for Bishop Harries who is on his way to retirement."
END
| Poster | Thread |
|---|---|
| essodalori | Posted: 2005/12/7 13:59 Updated: 2005/12/7 13:59 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
"Thomas, speaking on the New Age Movement and paganism on BBC radio recently, said "I believe the new Paganism has an enormous amount to teach Christianity." "
--- Starting with the dissemination of child porn, I suppose. Essodalori |
| essodalori | Posted: 2005/12/7 14:02 Updated: 2005/12/7 14:02 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
Richard Kirker, of the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement said, "His words reveal a disgust and contempt for other people that is incompatible with Christianity."
--- Wrong. Bishop Akinola's words reveal a disgust and contempt for homosexual acts, like homoanalfecal sodomy. That is FULLY compatible (and indeed demanded) by Christianity, and is part of true Christian love for those who are drawn to those perverted acts. With Christian love, Essodalori |
| essodalori | Posted: 2005/12/7 14:04 Updated: 2005/12/7 14:04 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
"However, he insisted that he would not overtly seek to "convert" pagans to Christianity."
--- Translation: I do not believe following Christ is better for anyone than to be pagan. Essodalori |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/7 14:22 Updated: 2005/12/7 14:22 |
|
When you cease believing in the divinity of Christ, Christianity becomes a big bore, just another fiction; and when Christianity becomes a big bore, you start looking at other belief systems for amusement and enlightenment.
|
|
| Damascus | Posted: 2005/12/7 14:27 Updated: 2005/12/7 14:27 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/26 From: Republic of Karelia Posts: 640 |
However, he insisted that he would not overtly seek to "convert" pagans to Christianity.
Oh no, of course, we certainly wouldn't want anyone in the Church of England doing that. |
| JimMcNeely | Posted: 2005/12/7 14:40 Updated: 2005/12/7 14:40 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/4/7 From: Posts: 699 |
stoneridge, your words are loaded with wisdom and truth.
I am an Army chaplain. I serve in a pluralistic environment where my job is to help facilitate religious support for each person's chosen faith. All well and good. I do so without prejudice and out of a love for each person. BUT...I make no bones about it: Jesus Christ is THE way, THE truth, and THE life. I know the truth, I prcoclaim to the truth, and with God's help, I try to LIVE the truth. Milktoasty, weak-kneed, pansies like this - who look to embrace Paganism as Christianity's equal - have no place in the new Anglican communion. -Jim+ |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/7 15:07 Updated: 2005/12/7 15:07 |
|
Quote:
However, he insisted that he would not overtly seek to "convert" pagans to Christianity. Interfaith dialog for the purpose of getting along and understanding each other is a sin, pure and simple. The only reason to study another religion is to know your enemy. Our duty as Christians is not to get along with Pagans, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Daoists, or any others. Our duty is to bring them to Christ overtly or covertly, it doesn't matter. I'm not a man of many words. But this is a no-brainer. Y |
|
| Cennydd | Posted: 2005/12/7 15:30 Updated: 2005/12/7 15:31 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
See to it that he receives a fair trial, and decide his guilt first. THEN you can crucify the man.....not before! Don't convict him in a court of public opinion. I believe he deserves THAT much!
|
| FrEdsD | Posted: 2005/12/7 15:39 Updated: 2005/12/7 15:39 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/27 From: FL Posts: 5 |
I agree with Yeshuist that our goal is to convert people to Christ, but I don't believe that treating people of other faiths as "the enemy" is the way to get there. Our enemy is Satan, who if he had his way would lead all souls to destruction. There is a fine line to be trod between understanding people of other faiths and belief systems (in order to better lead them to Christ, as Jim McNeely does), and letting ourselves be sucked into such dangerous territory as condoning paganism, etc.
That said, Thomas has clearly crossed way over that line to the point that he doesn't feel any urgency to lead others to Christ but is content to let them continue down other paths without concern for their souls (out of "respect" for their beliefs, apparently). Also, he has obviously spend enough time in the world of moral relativism to venture into child porn as an acceptable practice. Notice he did not admit or deny the charges but will "defend himself vigorously." Arguing what? That he is innocent of the charges? Or that he has a right to behave as he did? In the climate of our church today, both answers are equally likely from a church leader. I weep. BK |
| Causidicus | Posted: 2005/12/7 15:53 Updated: 2005/12/7 17:13 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/7/3 From: Posts: 1094 |
They have found him at last! The perfect revisionist representing in all his thoughts and behaviors the very essence of (post?)-modern, 21st Century, liberal anglicanism. A veritable pluriverse of ecumenical deformity. . . or something like that....
Can anyone tell me what in the world has happened to Oxford? Lord have mercy!!!!! Causidicus |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2005/12/7 16:26 Updated: 2005/12/7 16:26 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Cennydd (I love that name, by the way), I hadn't noticed any posts here commenting on the legal charges against Thomas, even though if true they are worthy of scorn and condemnation. So I am not sure what conviction you're speaking to...
|
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2005/12/7 16:34 Updated: 2005/12/7 16:34 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Here is the Diocese of Pennsylvania, we have experience with pagans in the Episcopal priesthood. Recall as documented on VOL some time ago the husband-and-wife team of Wiccans moonlighting as rectors!
The man quit in great shame, to his credit, while his wife continues unscathed. Seems to me the so-caled "salad bowl" approach to multiculturalism employed since the 1960s has failed and failed miserably. Unless of course the great goal was to destroy the Protestant religion and culture of both England and America. In that case, it succeeded spectacularly. Pagans in high church offices. What's next? A straight Christian running NOW??? |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2005/12/7 16:36 Updated: 2005/12/7 16:36 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Glad I ate breakfast a while ago or I'd have something of a mess on my hands...
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/7 16:39 Updated: 2005/12/7 16:39 |
|
FrEdsD;
You are putting words in my mouth that I didn't say with respect to the treatment of the enemy. We should, as instructed, pray for our enemies and lead them to Christ. I said nothing in my comments about mistreating them as your response implies. Satan IS the enemy and the leader of other religions. Therefore, all who enter their doors as members are his soldiers. To imply anything else is naive. However, they must be treated with Love. At times, that includes so called "Tough-Love", but Love, nonetheless. I suspect you read into my comments things that weren't there. In reality, we probably are of the same thought on this. Y |
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/7 16:41 Updated: 2005/12/7 16:41 |
|
gregory;
I just love your postings/photos/art, etc. Y |
|
| gregory | Posted: 2005/12/7 16:51 Updated: 2005/12/8 14:30 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
Brother Yeshuist, Thank you very much.
Child porn, upsets me to tears, and the other replusive items in this article so i am trying to overcome it; anger and all...i must get back to Advent lessons.... & soon. just a couple more posts..... hopefully real eye openers gregoryUPDATE: MY PICTURES AND THE QUOTES FROM THE ARTICLE WERE DEEMED : "awful and over the line" AND outside "the boundries of good taste" . So they were removed by Robert the WebMaster. Sorry if i offended anyone else. |
| Nanny | Posted: 2005/12/7 17:20 Updated: 2005/12/7 17:20 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/7/28 From: Oklahoma City Posts: 27 |
At one time, the Church of England sent missionaries all over the world to Christianize the pagans. Now, what is left of the civilized, Christian world is obligated to send missionaries to the United Kingdom to re-Christianize it. It has been said before: the church that stands for nothing will stand for anything.
|
| essodalori | Posted: 2005/12/7 17:24 Updated: 2005/12/7 17:24 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
"BUT...I make no bones about it: Jesus Christ is THE way, THE truth, and THE life. I know the truth, I prcoclaim to the truth, and with God's help, I try to LIVE the truth."
--- Hoozah! With Christian love, Essodalori |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/7 17:24 Updated: 2005/12/7 17:24 |
|
"Thomas neither admitted nor denied the charges during the short hearing at Didcot Magistrates' Court, Oxford."
***** I'm sorry but in my book that constitutes a near admission of guilt. For starters if you truly believe you are innocent then say that at your hearing. How hard can that be? Even Saddam Hussein is saying he is innocent as hell when he is ranting. Furthermore, as the Bible tells us, by their fruits shall we know them and if history is any indicator with a checked past of delving into paganism makes me even more suspect, that this may be true. At the very least even if he is totally innocent which I highly doubt, he should be defrocked when this trial is over for his beliefs and actions. BHTech |
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/7 17:26 Updated: 2005/12/7 17:26 |
|
"When you cease believing in the divinity of Christ, Christianity becomes a big bore, just another fiction; and when Christianity becomes a big bore, you start looking at other belief systems for amusement and enlightenment."
******* How true this is. Thanks Stoneridge. God Bless BHTech |
|
| gregory | Posted: 2005/12/7 17:55 Updated: 2005/12/7 17:56 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
|
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2005/12/7 18:15 Updated: 2005/12/7 18:15 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
You would think, BHTech, that a basic faith and commitment to Christianity would be the minimum job requirement for "priest"!
How naive we are!!!!! |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/7 18:22 Updated: 2005/12/7 18:26 |
|
Gregory,
Bless you dear Brother - I'm speechless!!! The photo of the clown in two-piece black *neo-minimalist garb* made me understand the true meaning of *puking my guts out* I hope you didn't wake some of frsteve's latent desires in regards to Pagan Pride Day ![]() |
|
| Padraic | Posted: 2005/12/7 19:19 Updated: 2005/12/7 19:21 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/4/15 From: Oklahoma Posts: 111 |
'Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses,so these men also oppose the truth,men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.'2 Tim.3:8-9 ESV
|
| Cennydd | Posted: 2005/12/7 21:30 Updated: 2005/12/7 21:32 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Joe, I simply said that I believe in trial by a court of law.....the Law Courts in Britain.....and not in trial by the court of "public opinion." I think the man's entitled to trial by a fair and impartial jury.....and that we shouldn't pre-judge him. If he IS guilty of this offense, then he will have to answer to the Higher Judge as well.
Thanks for your comment about my name. As you might have guessed, I am a Welsh American. The "double d" is pronounced "th." ![]() |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/7 22:13 Updated: 2005/12/7 23:04 |
|
Jim,
Thanks. Ironically, for me, what happened in the ECUSA has been something of a blessing. As I see it, the ECUSA's leadership didn't go to bed one night and wake up the next morning heretical. Unbeknownst to me, they were heretical for quite a long time and it was simply the election of Robinson that occasioned their coming out of the closet. And so, I was forced to recognize the likelihood that for many, many years I had been following leaders who were heretics, who did not believe what I believe. So many have since told me that I didn't leave the ECUSA, they left me. But this isn't entirely true. The truth is that we sat in the same pews for many years; and I but thought we believed the same thing and worshipped the same God. The truth is that we likely were never actually in the same place. Rather than one of us departing from the other, it is more accurately the case that we were only in the same place physically, not spiritually. And so, looking back, I perceive that I was deceived and naive or blind, but now I see more clearly the way of the world (at least the way of the world in mainline protestantism). They are, for the most part, "progressive," and the Church, rooted in scripture, tadition, reason and the unchanging will of God, is inherently absolutist and "conservative." Unable to literally rewrite scripture, their tactic has been to divorce the Holy Spirit from Christ and God, and from their words and will as revealed in and through scripture, tradition and reason, in order to make the Holy Spirit a "free agent" who will serve THEM. In this way, the Church, the bride of Christ, becomes whatever they want her to be. SHE is now theirs. And so, since Robinson's election, with the assistance of people like you on VOL and others, I have done a fair amount of thinking and belated reading on such matters, and I have come to the conclusion that, as there is really nothing new under the sun, what we are witnessing in the West is an increasing incidence of heresy, of leaders who no longer believe and proclaim, as you so eloquently put it, that "Jesus Christ is THE way, THE truth, and THE life." Jesus is no longer the Christ, the Son of God. They now say that he is but "a" way, "a" truth. And in saying this, there is no reason not to "explore" all of the alternatives. This phenomenon is now everywhere in the pseudo-intelligentsia of the West. As I read last night in a brochure from my alma mater's chapel (Duke), they tiptoe up to the edge of heresy in their official statements by using languange like "the God of Jesus" (implying that Jesus is not God, that he was but one prophet among many) and do not expect anyone to notice what they are really saying. They will string the faithful along as long as possible, collecting their money along the way, and then, when they finally come out of the closet, they will point to all that they have said over the years and say--"Look at what we have said all along! It is you who did not understand! We have not changed! You are behind the times. The Holy Spirit is with US." And so, as I will not be deceived again, in looking back upon this sad chapter in my life, where I was betrayed by the church I belonged to in the same way that Robinson betrayed God, his wife and his children, I will now look beneath the superficial surface of things and know whether the leaders I follow are charlatans. And as for my wife and me, right now (and may it always be so), the most trustworthy leader presently "on the field" is Pope Benedict. |
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/7 22:48 Updated: 2005/12/7 23:01 |
|
P.S. to the above post:
It just occurred to me (likely obvious to many of the rest of you!) that what the ECUSA has done, by divorcing the Holy Spirit from Christ and God (and their words and will as set forth in scripture) is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. For their own ends, they have slandered the Holy Spirit by falsely proclaiming that the Holy Spirit now commands that sodomistic relationships are Godly. In doing so, they have made the Holy Spirit out as a whore of men. And as the Gospel of Mark says, "[W]hoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." |
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/7 23:45 Updated: 2005/12/7 23:45 |
|
Dear Stoneridge
Excellent post my friend! Its also probably true to say that many have been deceived for years. I certainly was totally ignorant for years (at first) of the goings on in the ACoC. Only until Gene Robinson confirmation did I begin to see the light and to do something about it. Finally, I must add that my earthly leader is also Pope Benedict. God Bless BHTech |
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/7 23:46 Updated: 2005/12/7 23:46 |
|
"You would think, BHTech, that a basic faith and commitment to Christianity would be the minimum job requirement for "priest"!
How naive we are!!!!!" ****** Yes Joe you are right! It shows how far the CoE has gone. God Bless BHTech |
|
| rpthomas | Posted: 2005/12/8 1:47 Updated: 2005/12/8 1:52 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/12/8 From: Posts: 1 |
I presume you believe it is a Christian virtue to condemn someone before giving him the chance to respond! Or perhaps you really do believe we in the UK are right about not convicting someone before (a) the trial, or (b) knowing the facts?
I shall not comment on the pornography charges because my defence will be made in court, except to say clearly that I abhor child pornography, that I am not a paedophile, and that I will defend myself vigorously against any accusation that I am. As for the charges leveled by this website against my activities with Pagans, let me say this: How many of you have had the opportunity to speak about Jesus Christ to an International Conference of Pagans? To bear witness to your faith to a hall full of Witches, Druids, Shamen and others? And to do so with applause? I have the honour of being the first Christian minister to be invited to do so, and you can read what I said at www.gatheringspace.org in my talk: Jesus, the Green Man of the Bible. Once you have read it, then perhaps you can judge me. Unless, perhaps, you might want to follow Jesus' own instructions to 'Judge not, that ye be not judged.' And yes, I also happen to believe that Gay people can be Christians too..... Richard Thomas |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/8 2:39 Updated: 2005/12/8 2:49 |
|
Dear Richard,
Welcome to VOL. Regarding your comments clearly they are contradictory with DV reporting, so someone has gotten their story wrong. The comments being that you neither deny or confirm the charges brought against you. I checked out your web site and in one of your articles (Jesus, Green Man of the Bible) I saw something troubling to me. I quote "But I have discovered that whilst there are fundamental differences between a Pagan and a Christian world-view, once you strip away the Christian Imperialism, and look dispassionately at our respective spiritualities, there are some surprising similarities." Why do you have to strip away Christian Imperialism? You seem to equate the two. I am no theologian, but while you correctly quote scripture, your intrepation of it to pagans leaves a lot to be desired. Let me say that I am not out to tear apart your article nor your teachings, but lets just say its not the approach that I would expect from a priest trained in orthodox theology. God Bless BHTech |
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/8 2:45 Updated: 2005/12/8 2:51 |
|
"And yes, I also happen to believe that Gay people can be Christians too....."
****** I have a Non-legal question for you. Are those Gay Christians you believe in, called to repent of any homosexuals deeds they may have committed in the past (like we all are when we sin), or is being a Gay Christian a free passport to any type of homosodomy acts with no repentance? God Bless BHTech |
|
| Causidicus | Posted: 2005/12/8 3:14 Updated: 2005/12/8 3:14 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/7/3 From: Posts: 1094 |
Well, well, Greetings RPThomas:
Three simple questions: 1 What is the enormous amount that the new paganism “has to teach Christianity?” 2. Why do “we have to learn from paganism”? 3. How many of the pagans have you restored or converted to Christ? That was an easy slow pitch to you. Referrals to other url’s will be considered a swing and miss as it makes discussion impossible. Suggestion: Don’t generally condemn everyone at the site. Not everyone immediately presumed you guilty - you will note that some warned against that very thing. Causidicus |
| Jude21 | Posted: 2005/12/8 4:07 Updated: 2005/12/8 4:07 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/12 From: Posts: 44 |
Thank you for the reference, I read your presentation twice. I can understand the applause, you validated many of their positions, joined with them in their resistance to further development of our world, and established very well that you were engaged in a dialog with equals, spiritually and morally.
I would have been more impressed, however, if you had been applauded for sharing with them the message that " God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son to the end that all who believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/8 4:29 Updated: 2005/12/8 4:55 |
|
"To bear witness to your faith to a hall full of Witches, Druids, Shamen and others? And to do so with applause?"
--And in so "bear[ing] witness to your faith," you called for them to repent and they applauded? In my opinion, true witness would have been met with silence or worse. Does our Lord and Savior share your obvious pride in being so received? "... perhaps, you might want to follow Jesus' own instructions to 'Judge not, that ye be not judged.'" --I, for one, have not passed judgment on your legal case, but it's merely because I do not have the facts, not because I fall for the hackneyed abuse of "Judge not, that ye be not judged," which passage you appear not to understand. As for your religious views, they are fair game, and in my judgment, as set forth in your post, they are sorely wanting. "And yes, I also happen to believe that Gay people can be Christians too....." --The ultimate question, which you either fail to comprehend or deceitfully elude is not whether "Gay people can be Christians" but whether Christians are to be gay. Does God call Christians to engage in homoanalfecal sodomy? |
|
| essodalori | Posted: 2005/12/8 4:54 Updated: 2005/12/8 5:28 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
Well, Mr. Thomas. David Virtue did not condemn you for having child pornography; he reported that you had been arrested for making it and having it. Is that not true? In my experience, including with some child pornographers in my own town, all those caught with it deny it, and deny they are pedophiles. You deserve your day in court. Then we will see.
I read your Green Man speech. There is Christian truth in it; there is also Christian falsity. You have obviously adopted a non-Christian view of sexual morality. You would obviously disagree, but you would be in disagreement with 95% of the world's Christians. Here's part of what you wrote: ----- """Accept this way of thinking about Jesus, and a whole new vision opens up before us. Sex and sexuality are no longer things that we need to hide. They are themselves part of the sacredness of being. The beauty and power of sex shows us the wonder and nature of deity. At the heart of all good sex is the wonder of love – and this too is a reflection of deity, of God. He is love who lives at the centre of all things, and he makes himself known in the beauty of intimate sex. If the transmission of life is the transmission of the sacred, then sex is itself an expression of deity, of sacredness. Christians should not be afraid of sex; we should be celebrating it as the most intimate revelation of deity itself. The command in Genesis to ‘Be Fruitful and Multiply’ is not merely an honouring of sex – it is a celebration of sex as being at the heart of our purpose. We are to be fully sexual creatures, enjoying love and life, bringing our children up to celebrate their own sexuality and their own desire for love. This is what lies at the heart of the Green Man – this celebration of potent sexuality, this riotous fecundity of nature. The Green Man of the Bible would not have covered the legs of the Grand Piano because they could provoke impure thoughts. He celebrated life. He never once condemned people because of their sexuality. I believe he would have welcomed gay people as readily as straight people, and celebrated their joy in sex as much as anyone else’s.""" -------------- You have the first part right, Mr. Thomas. Sex is beautiful and glorious and Godly, when used as prescribed (by God). However, and this is where you are off on a wild and sinful and soul-destroying path; sex is NOT and never has been at the "heart of our purpose." (I guess you've been reading something other than the Bible.) Oh, and I thought Christ was at the heart of our purpose - a man who never had sex. Nor is sex, in God's morality, about feelings of love. It is about true love (wanting what is truly best for the other - which is to become like Christ). If we had sex with anyone we felt love for, we could even have sex with children, right? (Oh yeah, I wasn't supposed to say that...) As for your contentions about sodomy - Jesus Christ, Mr. Thomas, was a devout Jew, and would NOT have approved of deviant sex between men, including acts like homoanalfecal sodomy (which, by the way, are anything but fecund). Neither would God give a man a penis for copulating with a man's rectum. There is Godly purpose behind our design, Mr. Thomas, and that, I assure you, is not it. You have obviously fallen into an age-old trap of idolizing sex for its own sake and pleasure. You have fallen for one of the most common lies and idolatries throughout the history of man. Sex is good and Godly and wonderful in Christian marriage between man and women; it is horrifically sinful outside of that station, and brings tremendous death, disease, sexual selfishness, the evaluation of others based on their bodies, and soul death into this world. Was it not Christ who told us that sexual immorality defiles us, and that we should not lust? You have obviously chosen not to listen to what he said. Bad mistake. Really bad mistake. In short, you are deluded about Christianity and Christ (the Green Man) and God's sexual morality. Good luck on your child porn trial. If you should be guilty, I hope they throw you in jail for a good long time, and keep you away from children forever. By the way, is there anything wrong with making and having child porn for pagans? With Christian love, Essodalori |
| essodalori | Posted: 2005/12/8 5:11 Updated: 2005/12/8 5:14 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
From:
An Assessment of Pagan Sexual Morality by Daniel R. Heimbach ---- "So as to be sure we represent nothing more that what proponents are now advocating in favor of a pagan approach to sexual morality, we will here simply follow the way one modern proponent, Thomas Moore, presents pagan sexual morality in his recent book, The Soul of Sex.[1] At its core, pagan sexual morality stresses the deep spirituality of sexual experience claiming that the soul is fully empowered only when it encounters "God, the infinite, or whatever we want to call the object of religious concern." But pagan morality does not stop at saying that sex has deep spiritual meaning and purpose for human participants. It goes on to claim that men and women actually access ultimate spiritual power (i.e., they encounter "God" or whoever they think is "God") through sex. Like replacement engineers dropped in at the throttle of a speeding locomotive, they are tapping into and in some sense even directing the spiritual force that powers the universe when they experience sexual arousal and physical union. Moore tells us, "The highest levels of spirituality are made accessable through sex."[2] According to pagan sexual morality, sex gives human beings access to God, and for this reason the more intense, unrestrained and overwhelming sexual experience becomes, the more intensely spiritual and moral it becomes as well. On this Moore says, "The whole pleasant work of sex is to incarnate, to call down the spirit that will quicken our physical world and give home to eros." He goes on to explain that "lovemaking is a ritual that invites the goddess of sex to be present." Ultimately the object of sex is achieved when "we lose ourselves in the oblivion of sex and find our soul in the spiritual place that is accessable through openhearted passion. This is Venusian spirituality, a transcendence of self achieved through intense, pleasurable union."[3] --- Seems like child porn, according to this, would bring you closer to the pagan god. Yes, Mr. Thomas? Essodalori |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/8 5:16 Updated: 2005/12/8 5:21 |
|
Dear Richard
By now you probably would have seen a number of questions asked of you, which may be overwhelming for a first timer at VOL. I have taken the liberty to summarize them in one neat package which I may update as time goes by. I don't think any of the VOL posters would object to me re-posting their questions and I do so respectfully. ********** Questions: ********** 1) The ultimate question, which you either fail to comprehend or deceitfully elude is not whether "Gay people can be Christians" but whether Christians are to be gay. Does God call Christians to engage in homoanalfecal sodomy? - Stoneridge 2) By the way, is there anything wrong with child porn for pagans? - Esso 3) What is the enormous amount that the new paganism “has to teach Christianity?” - Causidicus 4) Why do “we have to learn from paganism”? - Causidicus 5). How many of the pagans have you restored or converted to Christ? - Causidicus 6)Are those Gay Christians you believe in, called to repent of any homosexuals deeds they may have committed in the past (like we all are when we sin), or is being a Gay Christian a free passport to any type of homosodomy acts with no repentance? - BHTech God Bless BHTech |
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/8 5:29 Updated: 2005/12/8 5:31 |
|
BHTech,
Good summary. My bet is we won't receive any answers. More likely Fr_Thomas's post was just another singular sanctimonious/indignant, hit-and-run incident by one who but thinks he is a Christian and has no clue what a Christian truly is or is called to be. Or perhaps his barrister will advise him to remain silent. (By the way, in Canada, is one still presumed guilty until proven innocent? (Or was that only in Quebec, some vestige of the Napoleonic system?) Funny to consider that depending upon which country one posts from Fr_Thomas may be presumed guilty, while in others he's presumed innocent! Can make for some misunderstandings, eh?) |
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/8 5:42 Updated: 2005/12/8 5:42 |
|
Dear Stoneridge
Let us keep our fingers cross as our questions are of a theological nature and not legal. Hence his lawyer should not come into the picture. On your question, yes Canada follows the assumed innocent until proven guilty. I do believe Quebec (a province) takes a different approach to the law, instead choosing to follow Napoleonic law so you are correct. I'm not certain of that approach. God Bless BHTech |
|
| gregory | Posted: 2005/12/8 14:08 Updated: 2005/12/8 14:36 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
Dearest Brothers and Sisters of Christ,
Yet again the pictures i have posted have been removed. i thank those who posted public thank yous and those who sent private messages and pictures to me. i continue to hear Fear Not and so i shed light on the situation. It was very hard surfing the pagan sites and i only picked the pictures that should have been deemed reasonable. Note there were images of penises for worship, images of vaginas for worship and many illegal references that i avoided. Below is my unsatisfactory response from the WebsiteGod; Robert Turner: "Gregory, That latest picture you posted in a Comment to the Oxford story is awful and over the line. I can't allow this to continue. I have only limited time to manage this site and will not allow the tone to be chnaged so drastically by anyone - however well meaning. Stay within the boundries of good taste or put images on your site. -Robert All i can ask is; Robert do you have children and do you know they may be the very ones that will be the ones harmed?? Your children will be on the pagan altar because of your fear and putting the Truth in the dark. You should have let the Light shine. Folks, Your children are in danger!! Christ's Mercy, gregory ps Robert removed four or five pics and cartoons with quotes directly from the article but he says "That latest picture you posted" Actually he left up the latest pic of Jesus and the Bible, Thank God. |
| essodalori | Posted: 2005/12/8 14:13 Updated: 2005/12/8 14:13 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
'Tis a tough question, for the truth about things and good taste often do NOT coincide.
Hope you two (Gregory and RTurner) can find a reasonable compromise, since you're both on the same side. With much Christian love, Essodalori |
| gregory | Posted: 2005/12/8 14:23 Updated: 2005/12/8 14:42 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
Brother Esso'
i am at a loss of words so let me show you what i seen well maybe not... Someone may "taste" the pictures and then swallow it and the exit might be blocked... please do not eat the pictures that appear to be bad tasting. Robert needs a vacation. Sorry if i offended anyone else. but i can not see how a True Christian would be offended by my posts. i can see how a True Christian would be offended by the article and by "bespectacled Richard Thomas". Mercy Mercy Mercy Praise Jesus! now where did i put those cords of rope ![]() |
| essodalori | Posted: 2005/12/8 14:51 Updated: 2005/12/8 14:51 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
Hey Brother Gregory,
Ultimately, it is up to David Virtue and Robert Turner to decide what will be allowed on their website. We tread on their territory. I know I am deeply grateful to them for allowing me to say things which I know would not be allowed to be said elsewhere (for reasons of political correctness, etc.). However, and I have to say this: There are many evils which seek to strike at our kids. In my local public high school (in New Jersey), there are kids who are deeply into - drugs, queer sex, sexual license, cutting, Goth, paganism, hatred toward Christians, sniffing, getting high through asphixiation, binge alcohol drinking and drinking in general, super hardcore porn, piercing, orgy parties, car racing through the town at night, etc. etc. etc. Many parents don't have a clue to what is really going on. (Those who do, like us, removed our children long ago...) And here's the thing. Every one of those things I mentioned is ugly and offensive to good taste to talk about. It's hard to talk about these things, and it IS ugly. I think we all must learn (out of love for our children and others) to speak truth, even when ugly, but in clear and forthright terms. Something has happened to many Christians - where they have become so afraid of offense and hurting feelings, that love has grown cold. So many of our churches have turned into places that seek that we all feel good, rather than be good, and that we do not make others feel bad, rather than truly love them. The truth is, the uglier the world gets, the more we will have to speak of ugliness. It's sad, but true. I applaud Gregory's concern for the next generation. If everyone had that concern, a lot of ugliness and sin in this world would have been banished to the pits of hell. Instead, we increasingly live in that hell. With much Christian love, Essodalori |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/8 14:55 Updated: 2005/12/8 15:18 |
|
gregory,
I enjoy nearly all of your posts. I suspect the removal of the ones at issue was a close call. I, for one, have a thick skin and after the initial gut reaction, didn't "mind" them, but I can see how others might wonder whether the ideations they might produce were worth the visceral reactions (e.g., revulsion, pity) they were certain to produce. It's a sort of cost-benefit analysis ... On the one hand, I for one, didn't need to see them to either have my own views confirmed or buttressed. My initial reaction was something like "argh ...!" There was a certain jarring effect. So, I guess the question becomes whether posting such photos is either necessary or truly effective. It's likely, if not certain, that everyone on VOL has already seen such pathetic souls "in drag" or similar atire. Having seen such sights once is enough for most of us, and seeing such sights in a forum in which we don't expect to see them can have a dicomfitting effect on those who do not need to be discomfitted to be enlightened or persuaded. So, it's not so much the reality (truth) of the phenomenon that needs to be pointed out as it is the ultimate meaning of it. While the photos reflect a certain reality, the TRUTH lies in their meaning, their implications, not in the visible image alone. Thus, that reality may have different meanings ascribed to it by different observers (only some of which will be truthful), and it is therefore harder to predict whether your posting of them will have the desired effect. Sometimes prompting a visceral reaction can help, sometimes it can distract. So, as I say, I think this was a close call. I didn't mind the posts, but I can see how Mr. Turner might want to curtail them. Keep up the good work on VOL and don't lose heart! |
|
| gregory | Posted: 2005/12/8 15:12 Updated: 2005/12/8 15:12 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
To all,
i was posting pics of Pagans, i do not know if they were homosexual ??? The article referred to "snap shots" and visualizing pagans beliefs, etc... so i put the visual part in there. What about my quotes from the article and cartoons?? What was the problem with them? Maybe i should have showed my anger and strength towards the likes of hell bent Richards.... i received many public and PM responses and all were in favor and thankful for my posts. Please note that in the past if someone has complained either publically or privately, i immediately removed or edited my post. So if anyone out here has a problem with my posts please bring it to my attention or just go whine to Robert and he will edit the Truth for you. my time is short and i intend to fight to the very end, gregory Holy Michael Arch Angel, Defend us in the day of battle.... As much as i want to get my hands on child abusers, i will continue to pray the proper authorities will Pierce and send to Hell anyone who abuses our children. |
| essodalori | Posted: 2005/12/8 15:15 Updated: 2005/12/8 15:15 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
Yet on the other hand, stoneridge, thousands of such, as you say, "pathetic souls," march down our Main Streets in drag, with the politicians before them, and lots of kids watching from the windows, and with the condoning of many supposed 'Christian' churches.
Not only are we harming children by allowing such, we are not loving those pathetic souls at all. Such is the sorry state our church and society have lowered themselves to. Personally, I think we need to be shocked out of our complacency and 'love grown cold.' We have become inured to much that is indeed pathetic and evil and unloving. The truth is; society itself is now shocking. With much Christian love! Essodalori |
| essodalori | Posted: 2005/12/8 15:18 Updated: 2005/12/8 15:18 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
"my time is short and i intend to fight to the very end, gregory"
--- My time is, I would guess, considerably longer, gregory, but I intend to fight to the very end as well. Hope to see you in that glorious Godly place, bloody noses, broken bones and all. With much Christian love, Essodalori |
| gregory | Posted: 2005/12/8 15:27 Updated: 2005/12/8 15:28 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
![]() "Hope to see you in that glorious Godly place, bloody noses, broken bones and all." |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/8 15:27 Updated: 2005/12/8 15:27 |
|
I have to put my two cents in.
Words can paint an equally potent picture as can the picture itself. I see nothing different from the photos posted by gregory compared to some of the words and language allowed here. I must also say that the language allowed here is necessary in this war, which is what this is. In war we must use whatever weapons we have and we must use those who have the tools to use their God-given weapons to fight this war to the best of their ability. I have understood and appreciated the postings by Essodalori. He has taken much flack from people for them. But God has given him the talent to do so for the protection of our children and grandchildren. He has been allowed to continue and I am grateful for that. Gregory has also been given the talent to find the visual weapons we need to fight this war. He has taken care not to post those pictures/photos/artwork that are over the line. I see no difference between the words posted by Esso and the pictures posted by Gregory. While they may both push the limits, I believe it is necessary and that they have not gone over the limits. I support them both. Y |
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/8 15:34 Updated: 2005/12/8 15:34 |
|
Esso and gregory,
As I said, I for one, didn't mind the posts. I know why gregory posted them. His motives were fine. However, I'm an eminently tough, seasoned, reasonable, sympathetic and right-thinking person with not a puerient or hateful bone in my body (not to mention modest)! I too would fight to put an end to the sort of depravity you speak of and save its perpetrators from themselves, and I too believe that too many people are blind to its existence. All I'm trying to say is that while a picture may be worth a thousand words, so too pictures or photos are often less precise than words when it comes to communicating the poster's intended meaning. This is why I think it is right to use the sort of language you use, Esso, and why I have stolen some of it myself! But there is, for example, a difference between the "meaning" or effect of the words "homoanalfecal sodomy" on the one hand and posting a photo of the act on the other (which never happened, of course). While both reflect realities and both may thus be said to reflect a truth, there is a difference between them and the efficacy of posting one versus the other. I guess this comes down to semiotics. I agree that too many people are clueless about what's going on in the world and if forced to choose, I choose the truth, and there was nothing false in gregory's posts. Given the choice, I would side with gregory, but that's because I already know gregory and his good soul and right motives and thus have a larger context than an occasional VOL visiter, whose sensibilities Mr. Turner may well be concerned more about than the rest of us. |
|
| essodalori | Posted: 2005/12/8 15:54 Updated: 2005/12/8 15:55 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
Yeshuist is right. This is a war, and anyone who ever followed Christ knows that, though the enemy is stronger these days, and the fighters fewer and sometimes injured (but not at all lacking in spirit and faith and willingness to take on more injury).
I know that David Virtue, RTurner, Yeshuist, stoneridge, gregory, myself and the so many other good and loyal Christian who post here are soldiers in that war. It is good to have a war council from time-to-time, and to discuss tactics. With Christian love for fellow soldiers, Essodalori |
| rturner | Posted: 2005/12/8 16:04 Updated: 2005/12/8 16:04 |
Webmaster ![]() ![]() Joined: 2003/12/31 From: Northern Virginia Posts: 92 |
Here's the deal folks; and I'm writing to Esso, gregory, and the other dozen or so folks who regularly comment on VOL stories.
You all have been given a privilage in being able to post on VOL. As such, you also have a responsibility to stay within the boundries of Christian charity toward one another and good taste overall. Pictures of pagans or homosexuals do not fall into the category of good taste and are do not fit within the mission of what we're trying to do with VOL. While it's not written down in legal prose what you can and cannot post (other than the TOS), take these short course corrections in the way they are intended; as a means toward helping the community better understand what David and I find acceptable. Blessings, -Robert webmaster@virtueonline.org |
| essodalori | Posted: 2005/12/8 16:08 Updated: 2005/12/8 16:08 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
Fair enough indeed, RTurner. Again, I thank you for the privilege of posting on this website.
With Christian love, Essodalori |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/8 16:17 Updated: 2005/12/8 16:17 |
|
Quote:
... I thank you for the privilege of posting on this website. Ditto! Y |
|
| gregory | Posted: 2005/12/8 16:39 Updated: 2005/12/8 20:51 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
"... I thank you for the privilege of posting on this website." gregory
![]() Maerten van Heemskerck The Triumph of Job, 1559 ps; disclaimer: i will not admit to knowing who or what kind of people are behind Job, ![]() |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/8 16:54 Updated: 2005/12/8 16:54 |
|
gregory;
Truly an inspiring post. Thank you. Y |
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/8 17:30 Updated: 2005/12/8 17:30 |
|
It is a privilege to post here, and I appreciate Robert for keeping the most offensive garbage out of this site. His work, and most rules, are only necessary for those who are unable to carry on a normal, adult, responsible dialog. It should be an embarassment that he needs to monitor and chastise folks.
|
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/8 18:10 Updated: 2005/12/8 18:11 |
|
Dear Fr_Steve
In the spirit of having a responsible dialogue between mature adults on VOL, what are your views on the questions posted below? ********** Questions: ********** 1) The ultimate question, which you either fail to comprehend or deceitfully elude is not whether "Gay people can be Christians" but whether Christians are to be gay. Does God call Christians to engage in homoanalfecal sodomy? - Stoneridge 2) By the way, is there anything wrong with child porn for pagans? - Esso 3) What is the enormous amount that the new paganism “has to teach Christianity?” - Causidicus 4) Why do “we have to learn from paganism”? - Causidicus 5). How many of the pagans have you restored or converted to Christ? - Causidicus 6)Are those Gay Christians you believe in, called to repent of any homosexuals deeds they may have committed in the past (like we all are when we sin), or is being a Gay Christian a free passport to any type of homosodomy acts with no repentance? - BHTech God Bless BHTech |
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/8 18:47 Updated: 2005/12/8 18:47 |
|
"the most offensive garbage"
___ What did you find offensive and why? |
|
| gregory | Posted: 2005/12/9 0:35 Updated: 2005/12/11 18:07 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/9 1:21 Updated: 2005/12/9 1:22 |
|
'Tis odd that _steve holds VOL site rules more dear than his Ordination Vows
![]() |
|
| almostrev | Posted: 2005/12/9 4:54 Updated: 2005/12/9 4:54 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 1969/12/31 From: Posts: 487 |
How about we not engage Fr_Steve any more than we already have? We all have our feelings on what he teaches, and a good many of us remember what happened when people in the past have engaged him. If anyone does not, or would like to know, feel free to PM me, but please, I beg you brothers and sisters, let him go unanswered. Please do not respond to him.
Yours in Christ, jacob |
| almostrev | Posted: 2005/12/9 5:04 Updated: 2005/12/9 5:04 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 1969/12/31 From: Posts: 487 |
Well Well, we have a celebrity on the site. I am delighted. I do admit I have not read the speach he read to the pagan crowd, but from the highlights posted, I am...less than impressed. Of course, I am a laymen, hardly educated. I have no letters before or after my name, and I do not have not been stationed anywhere special (except by God, to whom all places are special). All the same, I would be very interested in a theological discussion with you.
Oh, on a side note, if "judge not lest ye be not judged" means what you seem to imply it means, is it then not a crime to judge those words worthy to be listened to? But how can it be a sin to listen to Christ? Should we then not listen? Would that not also be a sin, and a judgment that our Lord's words were not worthy to be listened to? Just a thought, I really hope I hear back from you. Your Servant in Christ, jacob |
| mgooch | Posted: 2005/12/9 14:32 Updated: 2005/12/9 14:35 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/5 From: Posts: 68 |
Jacob:
I completely agree with you on the subject of not engaging _Steve. He attempts to confuse the orthodox on this site, but his postings only create more resolve on the part of we who actually adhere to the Word of God. Whether he knows it or not he actually is strengthening my ability to stand tall against his kind. BHTech: Don't bother waiting for a reply from _Steve. He has refused to answer a question posed to him multiple times. ("Would you accept or reject a decision by the EcUSA to allow those who practice bestaility or polyamorists to enter the priesthood or be concecrated as a bishop in the church?") He knows that by answering this or any of the questions you've listed will expose the hypocracy to his stated positions. He's like a chess player, one move away from being forced into checkmate, but refuses to make his move so that he feels that he has not "really" lost. Let _Steve make the next move to engage anyone in a logical debate, but ignore his sniper tactics. The love of Christ to all, mgooch |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2005/12/9 17:16 Updated: 2005/12/9 17:16 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Thanks for the pronounciation guide, Cennydd You'd love it outside of Philadelphia, I am sure. I used to live in the village of Bryn Mawr, which I learned is said, "Brinn Moor" not "Brinn Mar". Of course, were I to say it so, nobody would understand what town I meant!
PErhaps you could help with this possible Welsh name, from out on the end of the Philly Main Line: Uwlchan. Is that one of yours? ![]() |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2005/12/9 17:25 Updated: 2005/12/9 17:25 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Gregory, I suppose you'll simply have to link to the offensive graphics. Might be better that way anyhow, since those curious enough to follow will get an uncensored, first-hand lesson in the nature of the enemy.
|
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2005/12/9 17:28 Updated: 2005/12/9 17:28 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
mgooch, thanks for the chess analogy. It seems approrpirate to the larger issue of the endless revisionist "dialogue" as well. So long as the blabbering continues, nothing else is done and technically, they haven't caused the destruction of the church they pledged to build.
|
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2005/12/9 17:32 Updated: 2005/12/9 17:32 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Quote:
car racing through the town at night, etc. etc. etc. So what's wrong with that?!!! Joe Motorhead of the Mountain ![]() |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2005/12/9 17:37 Updated: 2005/12/9 17:37 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
Brother Gregory,
I feel your pain. While there are many true Christian Soldiers here, Robert is tending to the sensibilities of those whose skin is not so tough, who are not so battle hardened as are we. FWIW, I believe more of us should see the true nature of our enemy -- most of the ladies haven't a clue what homosexuality truly is... they think it's some sort of an adolescent crush with hand holding and midnight walks or some such delusion. But sadly, those are also the very people who yell the loudest when confronted by the ugliness they strive so hard to avoid. Post the links. Let the intrepid go off-site to see them. Keep Robert happy and give David once less thing to worry about. Oh and by the way: EVERYONE -- BE SURE TO SEND A FEW TOKENS OF CHRISTMAS CHEER TO OUR KNIGHTLY FRIEND DR VIRTUE! Show your love to VOL here ![]() |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2005/12/9 17:43 Updated: 2005/12/9 17:43 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
I did and I am.
|
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2005/12/9 17:52 Updated: 2005/12/9 17:52 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
HOOYAH STONERIDGE! Congratulations on your graduation from Sheoplehood!
|
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/9 19:54 Updated: 2005/12/9 19:56 |
|
deleted
|
|
| essodalori | Posted: 2005/12/9 22:24 Updated: 2005/12/9 22:24 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
"So what's wrong with that?!!!"
--- Yeah, Joe, I used to do it myself. But we've lost four teens and one innocent bystander in my town in the last two years from that behavior. I went to one of the funerals. With Christian love, Essodalori |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2005/12/10 1:35 Updated: 2005/12/10 1:39 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Joe, here's the correct pronunciation of Bryn Mawr.....which means "Great Hill." "Brinn MOwer." "Ow" as in "Oww, that hurts!" WR as in "Wirr." "Brinn Mower." That'll REALLY confuse 'em! Uwlchan is an Old Welsh man's name.....probably from southern Wales.....12th century or thereabouts. It's pronounced "Ooowilkhan." There's no English translation.
By the way, my folks and I used to visit Old Welsh Church. Pob Hwyl! (Cheers!) |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2005/12/10 22:37 Updated: 2005/12/10 22:37 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
That is so cool, Cennydd! I love it! I will immediately start with Brinn Mower and Ooowilkan. There are other similar names, again not sure if they are Welsh: Radwyn, Gladwyn, Bryn Athen, Boothwyn, Radnor. Any of those make sense?
|
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2005/12/10 22:41 Updated: 2005/12/10 22:41 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
OK so I've been thinking about this "God is revealing a new thing" thing.
Suppose... That if the "old fashioned" moral law can change, perhaps the "old fashioned" criminal law can also change. I think Mr. Thomas, what we are dealing with here is a new revelation. After all, "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" was from a pre-scientific time, before DNA, before forensic testing of hard disk drives, before "CSI: Oxford" and the marvels of scientific detective work by Scotland Yard and the FBI.So there is no longer a need for the presumption of innocence. After all -- you wouldn't be charged if you were not guilty, right? First the sentence, then the trial! The Law is teaching us a new thing, WOO-HOO! How's it feel when the shoe is on the other foot?????? |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2005/12/12 7:48 Updated: 2005/12/12 7:48 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6862 |
Joe, I agree with you on these points. Well-said!
I will contact you via email about the Welsh names and place-names as soon as I can. As you know, the Philadelphia area was heavily settled by the Welsh. ![]() |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2005/12/13 18:12 Updated: 2005/12/13 18:12 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
I once attended a pagan wedding ceremony for a young couple, friends of some girl I dated briefly in graduate school.
They tried to emulate the "Braveheart" scene but a la druids. The "clergy" that showed up were dressed as witch and warlock, with "holy pentagrams" and other alchemical symbols/runes and assorted Latin prayers to an unknown deity. I backed off and said a quick prayer for my soul while the parents looked on aghast. They should have stopped it! Why do I mention this? Because those pagans had nothing but mushy, Hollywood sentimentality motivating them. They didn't need dialog -- they needed a good spanking by their parents. And I've seen the "Green Man" cornice pieces in at least one English cathedral (sorry I don't know the technical name; I am not an architect), placed there with a wink and a nod from the ancient bishop by the pagan workmen building the place. I even think there is much "protochristianity" in pagan thinking, from what I've seen in the de minimus research I've made. But we're looking at appearances here, and fact is, if you go to bed with dogs, you'll wake up with fleas, as they say down yonder. In other words, you might have seen this coming if you bothered to think about it. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/12/14 3:27 Updated: 2005/12/14 16:00 |
|
Joe,
Apropos "If you go to bed with dogs, you'll wake up with fleas." If you really want to show your, ahem, appreciation for someone, tell them that you "wish upon them the fleas of a thousand camels" ![]() |
|













anger and all...
gregory














