The biggest reason, of course, for all of this - is parents.

Loving Christian parents dont' want, and will NOT accept their kids being told blatant lies about God's plan for sex and marriage and male and female, or to have sexual perversity introduced to their kids as something Godly and Christ-like.

So they leave.

Left behind always are:

1) the confused and elderly;
2) the sodomites;
3) radical 'families' who don't care if their kids do whatever sexually;
4) the feminists (who MUST, MUST adore abortion);
5) those who want a church without having to listen to God's word, and of course,
6) the weasely priests who take the money of 1) thru 5).

In contrast, the local Catholic church in my town is overflowing with large and intact families, with baptisms and confirmations and first communions galore, and with vibrant youth groups.

Quote a contrast, heh?

With Christian love,

Essodalori

Based on the figures I just read, this means a steady decline in active membership during the past three years.....with no letup in sight, and it's projected to get worse. In other words, ECUSA is bleeding like a stuck pig.....morally, financially, and people-wise! It is NOT going to get better anytime soon....if ever! Those who think otherwise are living in Dreamland!

There is the strong possibility too that these figures are conservative. When my family left St. John's Episcopal Church, Johnson City. TN we did so openly with a letter to the priest (now Bishop Don Johnson). Despite the fact that we said we were leaving in no uncertain terms we remained on the role for over ten years. We were only removed when I sent another letter requesting this to be done. Can anyone spell apportionments?

How many folks have left who are not being reported? I suspect many. And how many are no longer active? Many.

I smell a gargantuan "spin" on the way.

Neal

I'm a lifetime member of ECUSA, and have probably been more deeply aware of all of its politics for the last 8 years. I think Neal is exactly right in his assessment of this post. Obviously, ECUSA has a lot more money than it does members, which by no means signals present or future vitality.

Will ECUSA ever get with the program and see that their apostate positions are responsible for this exodus? Probably not--meanwhile, the AMiA has planted over 100 churches in only ~9 years...what does that tell you?

Oh, sure, money can be nice, but not when there's a complete lack of substance to go along with it. Shameful ...

In Christ,

Philippa

Ya know how in Ian Fleming's "Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang," Professor Potts and Truly Scrumptious land with the kids in a foreign country. But something is odd, strange... There are no children!

I attended services at St. Thomas Episcopal in New York last year, and but for the boys singing in the choir, there were very few kids. (I'll admit, the music was glorious...)

No babies cried, no little ones were hushed; there were really no big families at all.

Like the European nations, ECUSA is dying in its selfishnesses.

With Christian love,

Essodalori

The decline is steady but still small - so there's time to reverse it if the proper changes are made. Unfortunately this doesn't seem likely in the near future, and in the meantime things will continue to get worse. Even a small decline will compound over time into a disaster, though that might take 10 or 20 years.

"the AMiA has planted over 100 churches in only ~9 years...what does that tell you?"

============

Also, despite the terrible scandal in the Roman Catholic Church, it continues to grow. We attend an ECUSA church that gets maybe 25 to 30 on a Sunday morning. The Roman Catholic Church down the street is bursting at the seams. You can't find a parking place around there on either Saturday night or Sunday morning.

And the band played on ...

Dear Philippa

What does AMiA stand for?

God Bless

BHTech

AMiA = Anglican Mission in America

http://www.theamia.org/

BHTech,

The apostacy of ECUSA and American culture finally reached the point where others in the Anglican Communion, mostly in Africa, recognized that the U.S. had become a mission field. In an ironic turn of events, those pagan cultures to whom we once sent missionaries to bring the Gospel of Christ, were now well established Christian and Anglican faith communities who were sending missionaries to the U.S. to bring the Gospel of Christ to a nation and culture that had forgotten it. 100 new parishes in nine years speaks to the efficacy of the AMiA.

How many parishes has ECUSA closed in the past 9 years?

Sorry about the mess. The Episcopal Church is just in the process of separating the wheat from the chaff. More chaff flies away every day. But boy oh boy, the bread we're gonna make with this fine wheat that is left!

Esso,

I think there's another, larger category of people who remain in the ECUSA, a category your list doesn't seem to include. (Perhaps they fit under 1 and 5, "the confused and elderly" and "those who want a church without having to listen to God's word.")

While many have left my former parish, I was really shocked when I realized how indifferent so many of my former parishioners were to developments in the ECUSA and realized that they and I did not "operate" on the same level.

There appears to be a large percentage of Episcopalians (probably true in many main-line protestant denominations) for whom belief is personal and individual matter, not a corporate one. Membership does not necessarily require "endorsement" of the denomination's policies or teachings. So long as there is no "direct" impact on oneself, it doesn't matter what the denominations politics or policy are. (This is why, in my former parish, I am confidant that most of those who remain if they cared enough to express themselves, would dissent from the ECUSA's course. Intellectually, many may dissent, but they do not think it's worth pulling up their stakes.)

There thus seem to be some who do not take certain "things" as seriously as others, and who are, if not apathetic, then "apolitical." These are unimpressed by the importance of either disciplines or doctrines promulgated by their leadership. Perhaps this is a logical consequence of the Protestant way of thinking, whereby a certain amount of autonomy renders what others (including bishops) think less significant. Perhaps, as I believe, it is simply short-sighted and foolish. Perhaps the numbers in this article substantiate its foolishness.

For them, what they believe and do individually or within their own families is most important, followed by what their parish believes and does, followed (in a distant third-place) by what their denomination's leadership believes and does. They "identify" with their parish more than anything else.

I was surprised by this. I guess I was naive. I naively assumed they thought as I did. I thought I was called to worship with a people who believed as I did (that belief comes first, that it dictates the people with whom, and the place where, one should worship) and, thus, that shared belief needed always to be the basis for determing whether I belonged in a particular denomination. (Perhaps this is because I was not born an Episcopalian and made a knowing choice to become one.)

Instead, I found that many Episcopalians simply worship in but a place, or in a particular "style," and will stay in that place, and with that "style," if not forever, then until their denomination goes so far as to impair the viability of that place.

I hesitate to use the word "unprincipled," but it is close to that. They want to maintain a certain "feeling." They are not motivated by what I would consider true "belief," which for me, starts with a devotion to certain ideas or truths. Rather, they are motivated by the "ambiance" or aethetics, the "nostalgia,"or the "history" of the place and the character of the people about them. It is as though they are on spiritual "autopilot."

How often have I heard Episcopalians boast "our church is not a place where you check your brain at the door!" Ironic. It seems to me that that is precisely what those who remain in the ECUSA have done for the sake of their own comfort, which has become their true ends.

This, and the table attached, are interesting reading. Note that 52% of parishes are losing average Sunday attendance ("ASA"). I'll bet that the 33% of churches gaining ASA are the evangelical and conservative parishes. Does anybody know whether that is true? One other statistic that surprised me: although ECUSA's loss of members and ASA is steady, it is not accelerating. I would have thought that ASA and membership would have plummented during 2004, not continued its stately decline. Does anybody know why that happened? Is this reporting that is inaccurate/spun?

In Christ,

Publius

"The decline is steady but still small - so there's time to reverse it if the proper changes are made."

The first premise is debatable. As for the second, it seems that what needs to happen is what actually is happening.

Whereas Anglo-Catholics and Anglo-Protestants had enough similarity to hold together in the via media of Hooker, there is no similarity between orthodox Anglicans and revisionist Episcopalians beyond that of mutual structures.

Continuing to pretend as if there is a friendly co-existence possible is foolish. There has never been a friendly coexistence between them even when many orthodox quietly tried. It became clear that there was really no place for them. The two views are mutually exclusive.

Neal

II Timothy 3:1-7 comes to mind.

1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of stress. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding the form of religion but denying the power of it. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who make their way into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and swayed by various impulses, 7 who will listen to anybody and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth.

Of course, I can't speak for the "confused and elderly" and these verses may not apply directly to them but there is much that applies to ECUSA.

Some of you are aware of the fact that my wife and and I moved from the Diocese of El Camino Real (a real cesspool) to the Diocese of San Joaquin a little over two years ago (I have changed my username several times for personal reasons). During that time, we met a family who had moved here from that diocese not long before us. They told us that they had repeatedly asked the woman rector of their former parish for a Letter of Transfer to their present church......which is ours as well. No reply. Ever.

It does appear that ECUSA's figures are conservative, and the loss may be greater than what they reported.
And this seems to indicate that there IS some spin on the situation. Oh, how the unfaithful deny their infidelity ad infinitum!

Fr_Steve,

After you process grain down to get the 'fine white'flour, all that is left - in that 'fine white' flour, is undigestable and non-nutritcious.

So, let's take the analogy to it's end, the Episcopal Church, without the leavening of the orthodox, will be indigestable and totally devoid of nutritional value.

Which goes to the reason we have just left ECUSA to found an Anglican Franciscan mission in our little part of the desert.

BrChip,

Loved your retort to fr_ankenstevel

Like all "processed" foods, the Manna fr_ankenstevel gushes about is non-nutritional, non-healthy and so VILE it'll even make an ant puke up it's guts.

Gods Blessings,

wagnertuba

Stoneridge, now that you've mentioned it, I do agree with your idea that there may be another category: During the past few months, I've come to know some of the older members of our congregation.....and quite well, as a matter of fact! They're what one might call "set in their ways," but not so much so that they aren't aware of what has been happening in ECUSA! They had no way of keeping current, since they don't have access to a computer and the Internet. Several of us have taken it upon ourselves to inform them of the current state of affairs.....and let me tell you: They are NOT PLEASED!

If only more people would do as we've done, it might open many eyes and ears!

And to those of you who are clergy: Keep your parishioners.....ALL OF THEM.....fully informed. Don't keep anything from them!! Don't be afraid to ruffle some feathers, if need be!!

Fine wheat indeed.

The problem is what is being used to leaven that wheat.

Fr. Steve and Pluriform Frank; Please review how your teaching may reflect the admonishment Jesus himself provided in Matthew 16:5-12

Beware Yeast of the Pharisees!


You are also right about the separation of wheat and chaff. Please meditate upon the unquenchable fire the chaff will be consumed with. Teachers are held to a higher standard eh? Woe to those who cause the little ones to stumble.

stoneridge what you are describing are what I have come to know as the "bricks and mortar" people - they are attached to the building. They also believe that "this can't happen" in our church; or I have also heard "we can bless same-sex unions under the big old tree in the front yard but not at the altar" that's ok, right? These people are clueless - they are without substance, without moral conviction.

and I agree with you about "checking your brain at the door" - that is exactly what they had us doing because the ECUSA hierarchy believes us simple folk have no idea how to interpret the Word of God.

Once again, Steve is bass-ackward.

The only people leaving are those in the Loon Left. They are leaving because of their arrogant refusal to hear the rest of the Communion. ECUSA can "walk apart"...and are! They are being separated from the faithful in the Anglican Communion like all chaff should be.

Steve is right that once this stuff is removed, there will be nothing left but the best of the wheat. But sadly, ECUSA and the Loon Left goons who guide her will be thrown in the fire as unusable stubble.

God is at work to bring renewal and love to the Anglican Communion. That ECUSA is dying should be of no consequence, since they have snubbed the rest and are no longer a part of us.

Jesus went from village to village, meeting the sick and making them well. Jesus is the true Bread of Life.

Your "bread" leaves people (by the millions) sick and dieing.

Don

"that is exactly what they had us doing because the ECUSA hierarchy believes us simple folk have no idea how to interpret the Word of God."

---

Of course, mekane! God almost always draws his prophets and apostles from the simple people.

Abraham, Joseph, David, Elisha, Mary, Jesus the Christ, Timothy, etc. etc.

The man-on-the-street often understands God far, far better than modern day inteelectuals with ten university degrees.

With much Christian love,

Essodalori

You're right, stoneridge. I DID forget that huge group.

I know in the Catholic church here in my town, if a priest came in one day and condemned abortion, and one came in tomorrow and said it was good and wonderful - there'd be almost no ripple within the greater portion of the congregation!

Just sort of - whatevehhh...

How sad.

Jehovah has a LOT more to offer than whatevehhh...

With much Christian love!

Essodalori

Unless of course you are in the Diocese of Fort Worth. Only filtered and cult-approved information can be distributed to the people.

===============================
Poster: Cennydd Posted: 2005/10/31 15:42:13

And to those of you who are clergy: Keep your parishioners.....ALL OF THEM.....fully informed. Don't keep anything from them!! Don't be afraid to ruffle some feathers, if need be!!

Fr_Steve, don't try using that argument with Bishop Iker....you'll lose.....if he should even deign to come down to your level! And if you're ever so bold as to try it on MY bishop, John-David Schofield, you won't even be in the same ball park! I guarantee it!

There is no way the revisionist will keep the laity informed. Like the Democrat party, the only way they can win is to hide their intentions and actions.

Same ball park? It isnt the same league, it isnt even the same sport.

Yours in Christ,
jacob

The days when an Episcopalian was respected are over.

Why isn't the delcine as big as we would think it would be? As many of you stated...these statistics don't show the entire truth. Much of the decline caused by GC '03 didn't occur until sometime in 2004. If we were on the ECUSA roles at the beginning of the year...I'm sure they left us there in the statistics. I look for 2005 to show a much larger drop. Over 100 people from our ECUSA parish left and started a new parish (now AMIA), but the groundwork didn't get done until April of 2004...so I'm sure we're still in the 2004 stats. ECUSA has never been known for their accurate church membership records...if you showed up once, some churches call you a member!!

The first premise is debatable.

Well, we can debate about exactly how big something has to be before it stops being "small" ... however the figures in the report are somewhat misleading. The decline between 2003 and 2004 is actually closer to 1.5%, not 2% - but it had been rounded to the nearest whole percentage point. Still not good but not as bad as it looks if you just skim the report.

The decline over the last 10 years is more telling - if these figures are any indication, the loss appears to be accelerating although it's not yet enormous. It's certainly possible to turn this around but it would not be easy - however the longer this goes on before change occurs the more the losses compound.

You may well be right that the things that need to happen are in fact happening - that is, a divorce. Unfortunately in the short run this will leave a lot of people who aren't in large metropolitan areas without an Anglican church they're comfortable with attending - with the local ECUSA parish embracing an ultra-liberal agenda and losing members, and without enough population to support one of the continuing churches.

Hopefully as time goes on more alternatives will become available for people in that situation.

Once again, Steve is bass-ackward.

The only people leaving are those in the Loon Left.

Of course it doesn't follow that a "larger" church is necessarily a "better" church. So to some extent Fr_Steve has a point ... but the questions are who you're losing and who you're keeping, and what's happening to your witness as a church.

Unfortunately on this score the ECUSA seems to be getting the short end of the bargain. This is getting rid of the chaff?? On the contrary it seems like the ECUSA is in danger of becoming chaff herself.

"The Episcopal Church is just in the process of separating the wheat from the chaff" said Fr. Steve.

But as I recall scripture, it is the Lord Jesus who will do this, on the day of judgment.

"The Episcopal Church is just in the process of separating the wheat from the chaff" said Fr. Steve.

---

Actually, Am, the Episcopal 'Church' is in the process of making new chaff, and repelling old wheat.

With Christian love!

Essodalori

Esso,

"Making new chaff, and repelling old wheat." - priceless!!!

Mr. Distortion(you know who)is like "Old Faithful" in Yellowstone - can always be counted on to spew - but in this case not hot water, but his predilections for irrelevancies...

In Xrists Love,

wagnertuba

We left ECUSA recently, and are with Christ the Victor Episcopal Church, a mission of the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches (http://www.theceec.org) in Chicago.

I understand that CEEC planed 450 churches in India in the last 10 years, and about 100 or so in the U.S. There are also affiliates in Africa, Latin America, and Australia.

We investigated AMiA -- but chose CEEC.

Dear Stoneridge,

Please don't be too hard on those people! What you are seeing could also be described as the "ties that bind" as often generations of their family -- and neighbors' families -- worshipped in that very spot, baptized, confirmed, married, and buried. Certainly you can understand perhaps why they might think events and personalities far off in wack-job New York City do not matter very much to them.

Also, it is possible they've seen all sorts of wild things come and go and understand that "this too shall pass". The WW2 generation and their Depression-era fathers did see much worse than this and the world didn't end then, either.

Another way of thinking about it this: we are activists because these things ARE worth fighting for. And like the soldier in far-off Iraq, they and we do it for "those people". It is our peculiar form of duty. It is not for everyone.

As more than one wag terms it, that would be "Frankenfood" -- the stuff served at Fr_ankensteve's communion of the damned.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that revisionist parishes (pehaps all parishes) keep names on the rolls long past the departure of the people themselves. This would pad the true numbers to an unknowable extent without an ECUSA census.

The real test would be to count how many families fork over their money each year! Now I'd pay to see that figure!!!

Joe,

"Frankenfood" - sounds like something marketed by "Stuck On Stupid" Al Franken. Yeah, that stuff will certainly poison one and cause one's genes to mutate so that one's offspring(if any) are super-retarded and homicidally gay.

"that would be "Frankenfood" -- the stuff served at Fr_ankensteve's communion of the damned."

* UNHOLY

Joe,

I shall strive not to be too hard on them. I actually do feel sorry for them. They are being exploited and are too frail to resist their exploitation.

I suppose my "disappointment" comes from overestimating them and naively assuming that their faithfulness had the sort of intellectual, rational, principled conviction which I believe (or hope) mine has. It has been an eye-opening experience to note who has left and who has stayed in my former parish.

In this last context, I will note that, in my estimation, the STRONG have left and the WEAK have remained behind. This, in itself, would not bode well for the future of any organization, when its most scrupulous and capable members depart as a matter of principle.