As Eye See It : Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring!
Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring!
by Peter Toon
Very few Anglicans/Episcopalians today actually look at, and even fewer actually read and study, the Confession of Faith of the Anglican Way! This means that few clergy and laity know what it is for the Church of England and the provinces of the Anglican Communion to be known as Reformed Catholic in their Christian religion. Together with the classic Book of Common Prayer and the Ordination Services (Ordinal), the Articles constitute the Formularies of the Anglican Way. (All three Formularies are bound together in the English BCP of 1662, the American BCP of 1928 and the Canadian BCP of 1962. In English Canon Law the Articles are always listed first of the three.)
The Articles of Religion were adopted by the Protestant Episcopal Church of the USA in 1801 and then were bound together with The Book of Common Prayer and the Ordinal (editions of 1789, 1892 and 1928). So the American Church had the same Formularies as the Church of England from its origins in the 1780s to the late 1970s.
The Church of England has retained these Formularies to this day (2005) but the Episcopal Church rejected them as worship and doctrine standards by majority votes in General Convention in 1976 and then again in 1979. Since then the Articles have been treated as a museum piece without any authority in America. They have been effectively replaced by the radically liberal "Outline of the Faith" printed inside the 1979 Prayer Book of the Episcopal Church. In contrast, in 2005 the large Anglican Church of Nigeria reaffirmed its commitment to the BCP, Ordinal and Articles and stated that it would only be in fellowship with Churches of the same doctrine (and thus not in communion with the Episcopal Church of the USA).
Let me begin my reflections on the Articles by referring to a famous 19th century bishop, John Charles Ryle. Years ago I made a study of his life and writings as the first Bishop of Liverpool (the diocese where I was ordained in 1973) and then I published several books and articles about him.
Ryle was very much an English Churchman, a committed and loyal member of the Church of England, and he defined his churchmanship, as did all Evangelicals in his day, in terms of his commitment to the doctrine of the Articles of Religion (which are printed at the back of every official copy of the BCP). For him, as for others, The Book of Common Prayer was a most excellent Liturgy, but it was not seen as the confession of faith of the Church. The Confession of Faith was the Articles of Religion and the Prayer Book was the Liturgy wherein the doctrines of the Faith were to be found in the form of prayer and collect, canticle and versicle, rubric and exhortation, preface and addresses, and the shape and structure of the services. And the doctrine of the Ministry, stated in the Articles, was set out in large format in the three services for the making of deacons, ordering of priests and consecrating of bishops (the Ordinal).
Certainly the Articles are a sixteenth century statement of Faith but they may be seen as providing a major signpost and guide through the controversies, debates and divisions of the period of the Protestant Reformation and the Roman Catholic Counter Reformation. They may also be seen as pointing the way into a Reformed Catholic expression of Christianity that is based on the Scriptures and learns from history and tradition. Further, they may be seen as setting boundaries for this Reformed Catholic Faith, making clear when and where stepping over the line leads into error and heresy, immorality and wickedness.
The Articles are boring to those who are not enthusiastic to know what is the basis and content of Reformed Catholic Faith. Yet this is not surprising for we all know that many important documents are boring, unless one has an interest in their contents - for example, wills and testaments, marriage settlements, constitutions and canons, are boring for most people but extremely important to others who have a personal interest in knowing what is written therein!
A quick survey of the Articles reveals that they contain what may be called the patristic and catholic dogma of God the Holy Trinity, a Trinity of Persons in the One Godhead, and of Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, the One Person with Two Natures, Divine and Human. Also they contain what may be called the distinctive doctrines of the Reformation - e.g., the authority of Scripture, the saving and redeeming work of Christ Jesus, the nature of sin, justification by faith issuing in works of love, and the dominical Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper.
Without the Articles of Religion, the Anglican Way is a Way that is not clearly defined and thus a Way in which it is possible to get lost! However, with the Articles and the Book of Common Prayer functioning, as it were, hand in hand, together with the reading and meditating upon the Bible, there is in existence the authentic Anglican Way of Reformed Catholicism.
What these two Formularies joined to the Ordinal present to us - as summarized for ordinary folks in the late 16th century - is a simple 1,2,3,4 & 5, which "scheme" was used as the basis for the reforms of the 16th century. The Anglican Way is based upon ONE Canon of Scripture with TWO Testaments, whose doctrinal message is summarized in THREE Creeds (Apostles', Nicene and Athanasian); and is found in more detail in the decrees and canons of FOUR ecumenical councils [Nicea (325), Constantinople (381) , Ephesus (431) and Chalcedon (451)] and by the general developments (e.g., Liturgy, threefold Ministry, Church Year, Canon Law and so on) of the first FIVE centuries.
The 1,2,3,4 & 5 are a basis not the whole structure, but without a foundation there is no structure.
So to return to where we began.
The Articles may be boring to many but to those who are committed to the Anglican Way they are exciting and necessary.
Read them!
If the Liturgical Commission of the ECUSA had taken them seriously, they would have produced a much more biblically based and reformed catholic Liturgy for the new Prayer Book of 1979. Why, for example, did not this Commission produce a dynamic equivalent to the services of the classic Prayer Book in contemporary language instead of creating something very different in style, content and doctrine in the Rite II material?
So read the Articles and read the classic BCP and Ordinal along with them! And be pleasantly surprised - even by delight and joy.
--The Rev'd Dr. Peter Toon MA., D.Phil (Oxford) is president of the Prayer Book Society. he lives in Seattle, Washington with his wife.. He can be reached at: petertoon@msn.com
The comments are owned by the poster. We aren't responsible for their content.
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| essodalori | Posted: 2005/10/5 22:04 Updated: 2005/10/5 22:04 |
Home away from home   Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
 Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring!"Why, for example, did not this Commission produce a dynamic equivalent to the services of the classic Prayer Book in contemporary language instead of creating something very different in style, content and doctrine in the Rite II material?"
--- Well, duh - because they wanted to change doctrine. (And for a while, they got away with it...) With Christian love, Essodalori |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/5 23:15 Updated: 2005/10/5 23:15 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! My problem with the Articles isn't that they're boring, it's that they're heretical! Specifically, they are an example of the heresy of omission...with a few exceptions they don't offer any new, false teachings. Rather, they chop out large parts of Catholic Faith and Praxis, in deference to the truncated and atrophied Christianity of the 16th Century Continental "Reformers".
Where is the FULL sacramental and liturgical life of the patristic and medieval Church? It's been cut away. Where is the vital role played by the angels, the saints and the Mother of God in the life of the Church and the individual Christian? It's been cut away. Where is the sacramental power embodied in holy images and relics? They've been cut away. Where is the stress which the gospels clearly place on the ascetical life? That's been cut way, too. What partisans of Dr. Toon's so-called "anglican Way" are left with is a pathetically reduced Christianity, without so much of the richness which fed the Christian Faithful for 1500 years. Everything which belonged to the undivided Church of the first 10 centuries belongs to us. How sad, that Dr. Toon has ditched so much of his own God-given patrimony. In Christ, John |
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| DaleD | Posted: 2005/10/5 23:26 Updated: 2005/10/5 23:26 |
Just can't stay away  Joined: 2004/12/18 From: Posts: 96 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! Here a link to Ryle's tract on the Articles
http://www.churchsociety.org/issues/doctrine/iss_doctrine_39A_Ryle.htm Missing from Fr. Toon's writing is a reference to The Elizabethan Homilies. The Homilies were produced at the time of the Reformation in England in order to be read in churches where the clergy were ignorant or incapable of sound teaching. As such they are valuable today in that they expound essential aspects of the Christian faith both doctrinally and practically. However, they also have a further value as a commentary on Anglican doctrine clarifying the teaching of the 39 Articles and Prayer Book and therefore in showing the fallacy that lies behind some later attempts to re-interpret historic Anglicanism. Classic Orthodox Anglicanism uses the 1662 BCP, the 39 articles (with three creeds not two), the Homilies and always is focused on Holy Scripture. Neo-orthodox use part of this list with parts dropped or replaced.Where does your version of "orthodox" depart from the classic form? Why??????? |
| daleadams | Posted: 2005/10/6 1:31 Updated: 2005/10/6 1:31 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2004/2/1 From: Dixon, Calif. Posts: 975 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! DaleD wrote:
"Classic Orthodox Anglicanism uses the 1662 BCP, the 39 articles (with three creeds not two), the Homilies and always is focused on Holy Scripture. Neo-orthodox use part of this list with parts dropped or replaced.Where does your version of "orthodox" depart from the classic form? Why???????" Dale Adams counters: Why NOT? Does either Roman Catholicism or *any* Eastern Church honor or even know of either the Thirty-nine Articles or the Athanasian Creed? No. Does even any brand of Protestantism accept or even know of either one? Just the Lutherans. And the Lutherans go by the Augsburg Confession, a *much* better creed that is Catholic and Christian in the best sense. It's becoming clear to me that there's no hope of a reasonable Episcopalian or Anglican church emerging out of the current debacle. I'm currently attending the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and planning to join. (They do have the Athanasian Creed, but just as a formality, they don't really go by it.) |
| Traktaryan | Posted: 2005/10/6 1:37 Updated: 2005/10/6 1:37 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/7/16 From: Posts: 710 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! "Where is the FULL sacramental and liturgical life of the patristic and medieval Church? It's been cut away. Where is the vital role played by the angels, the saints and the Mother of God in the life of the Church and the individual Christian? It's been cut away. Where is the sacramental power embodied in holy images and relics? They've been cut away. Where is the stress which the gospels clearly place on the ascetical life? That's been cut way, too. What partisans of Dr. Toon's so-called "anglican Way" are left with is a pathetically reduced Christianity, without so much of the richness which fed the Christian Faithful for 1500 years."
============= Oh, what do you know anyway? You were always late for work crew!  |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/6 1:51 Updated: 2005/10/6 3:04 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! Quote:
It's becoming clear to me that there's no hope of a reasonable Episcopalian or Anglican church emerging out of the current debacle. I'm currently attending the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and planning to join. And ELCA is a better choice than ECUSA how?? Quote: "They do have the Athanasian Creed, but just as a formality, they don't really go by it." Kind of says it all right there doesn't it? It is officially part of their formularies, they just ignore it - sounds like a doctrinally stable group to me.  Steven |
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/6 3:09 Updated: 2005/10/6 3:10 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! Quote:
And the Lutherans go by the Augsburg Confession, a *much* better creed that is Catholic and Christian in the best sense. I agree that the Augsburg Confession is the cream of the crop as far as confessions go but the 39 Articles were drawn in large portions from the Augsburg confession and therefore, the views on the Lord's Supper being the exception (in which they followed Calvin's views), in line with it. Steven |
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| JRoss | Posted: 2005/10/6 9:05 Updated: 2005/10/6 9:05 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2004/3/15 From: New Jersey Posts: 896 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! The REC accepts the Thirtynine Articles, the Nicene, Apostle's, and Athanasian Creeds. In fact,at my suggestion, we are studying the Principles of Faith and the Thirtynine Articles of Religion at our Sunday morning Bible study. Yes, yes, I know about the 35 Articles instilled by those pesky Calvinists.
As one who was part of the Concordance between the ECUSA and the ELCA, been intermingling at one time, I wonder how one who coined the phrase homoanalfecal sodomy would ever step foot into an ELCA church, considering the amount of fruit in that church is almost as in the ECUSA. They did publically declare marraige is only between one man and one woman, but so did the 98 Lambeth Agreement. Correct me if I am in error, but they used to have just as much division as the ECUSA. |
| shytech74 | Posted: 2005/10/6 11:26 Updated: 2005/10/6 11:28 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/4/23 From: Ontario Canada Posts: 1054 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! My problem with the Articles isn't that they're boring, it's that they're heretical!
jmichal ---------------------------------- So you're a Roman? ------------------- , they chop out large parts of Catholic Faith and Praxis, in deference to the truncated and atrophied Christianity of the 16th Century Continental "Reformers". jmichal ----------------------------- I take that as a "yes" --------------------------- Where is the FULL sacramental and liturgical life of the patristic and medieval Church? It's been cut away. Where is the vital role played by the angels, the saints and the Mother of God in the life of the Church and the individual Christian? It's been cut away. Where is the sacramental power embodied in holy images and relics? jmichal --------------------------------------------- Consigned to the dustbin of irrelevance so as to clear away the debris choking the light of the Gospel and the grace of God. ------------------------------------------------ Where is the stress which the gospels clearly place on the ascetical life? jmichal ---------------------- I can't say as they removed the stress on that...it is lazy rich folks increased in goods and having need of nothing, that have removed the emphasis --------------------------------------------- the richness which fed the Christian Faithful for 1500 years. jmichal ------------------------------------------ If you analyse the life and work of the Mediaeval Roman Church, you will see that they were starving the masses of illiterate peasants...withholding the "Bread of Life" which is the Word of God. You are dwelling in a fantasy world jmichal. Your golden age of Romanism did not ever truly exist. If it was so wonderful, it would not have ended under the judgement of God for it's sin. Move along shall we? |
| Anggrl | Posted: 2005/10/6 12:02 Updated: 2005/10/6 12:02 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/30 From: Posts: 176 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! It's becoming clear to me that there's no hope of a reasonable Episcopalian or Anglican church emerging out of the current debacle. I'm currently attending the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and planning to join. (They do have the Athanasian Creed, but just as a formality, they don't really go by it.)
ELCA?!! Yeah. I visited them for a few months, thinking that they MIGHT be a bit more conservative than ECUSA. And then, right before their convention in August, I get the local ELCA's newsletter with a statement enclosed from the pastor. He was beating the gay rights drum. He also addressed the mess in ECUSA, and he absolutely missed the boat in his arguments that were very pro-Gene Robinson. I e-mailed the church office & told them to remove us from the mailing list. We have never returned. I am actually better off attending an ECUSA with an orthodox priest. Actually, I don't attend much of anywhere at all, but I do attend the ECUSA with the decent priest from time to time. Anyway, you are no better off with ELCA. At any rate, this ELCA is in an area that's generally pretty conservative so I wonder if he has much of a congregation left as it is a small church. |
| mathman | Posted: 2005/10/6 13:07 Updated: 2005/10/6 13:07 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/5/26 From: Rockville, MD Posts: 1064 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! Dear jmichal:
Hope you read the article in these pages on how the Roman Catholics no longer accept Scripture as true. It appears that Catholics are taught the doctrines of the RC, not Scripture. The Gospeler might as well be chanting in Latin, as Catholics appear to know no Scripture, nor do they care. The vital role played by angels, saints, and the Mother of God? Have you ever heard of feudalism? Have you heard of how the Priests were in the habit of scraping ancient texts off of parchment so the parchment could be used for palimpsets? The place of relics and images? Was illiteracy and superstition, then, a good thing? A pathetically reduced Christianity? I do hope you succeed, jmichal, in finding your version of the Ayahtollah Khomeni who will take you back to the high point of the 8th Century in its worship of images made by hands, its introduction of non-Scriptural theologies of Purgatory, and its elaborate caste system of Priestly and Monastic Orders. Most importantly, the feudal Church was at the forefront of defending the Divine Right of Kings. Remember how King Ferdinand signed his name? "I, the King." Thanks, but no thanks. |
| gregory | Posted: 2005/10/6 17:37 Updated: 2005/10/6 17:39 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! http://praiseofglory.com/Stmaximus.htm/ From another voice, representing both the great Anglican Tradition and what he called "mere Christianity," C.S. Lewis speaks of the unity we can find "at the center:" "It is at her center, where her truest children dwell, that each communion is really closest to every other in spirit, if not in doctrine. And this suggests that at the center of each there is something, or a Someone, who against all divergencies of belief, all differences of temperament, all memories of mutual persecution, speaks with the same voice." From CS Lewis, author of Mere Christianity ps mathman, i thought you knew more than the old lines of protest. |
| PRISCA | Posted: 2005/10/6 20:56 Updated: 2005/10/6 20:56 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/8/3 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 269 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! Just by way of light relief, the old joke used to be that since Lambeth Palace had forty bedrooms, thirty-nine articles were too few.
More seriously, peeing into or onto any of them is essentially un-Anglican. They contain among other things hermeneutical principles whch would have saved us from the abuse of Scripture in favour of homosex. |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/6 21:15 Updated: 2005/10/6 21:15 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! [quote: Oh, what do you know anyway? You were always late for work crew! closequote]
Okay, what scary Son (or Daughter?) of the House is lurking out there, making scandalous accusations about me being late for workcrew! It never happened! I occasionally didn't show up...but only for good reason! And the Articles are still icky. Peace, John of Nashotah |
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| Anglophile | Posted: 2005/10/6 21:42 Updated: 2005/10/6 21:42 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/6 From: Rochester,NY Posts: 154 |
 Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring!PRISCA: "...They contain among other things....principles which would have saved us from the abuse of Scripture in favor of homosex." Prisca I enjoy your postings. You are right on that point. I am a hight church cradle Anglican but seem to be an anomaly in this instance. The 39 Articles were a part of my Confirmation class. This was back in the "dark ages" of 1958. In 2003 the Articles were the first place I went to confirm that vicki gene's election and same sex blessings were WRONG! The Articles were as I remembered them and I found the two I wanted. They are Articles 20 and 34. The Articles help define me as an Anglican. I remember the 1928 Book of Common Prayer. My husband and I are considering leaving ecusa and joining the Anglican Church in America. Their close ties to Rome do frighten me a little and we will not rush. We are in an orthodox parish right now but are in conflict with the diocese and it doesn't look good for us. I have always felt that the Bible is supreme and you must believe if you are a Christian. ecusa has been a cesspool since the late 60's. It gets worse every year and with every new outrage. Our diocese (Rochester) has just posted the agenda for the diocesan convention in Nov and they uphold "inclusion" to the max. We have a very radical bishop. Keep posting.
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/6 21:44 Updated: 2005/10/7 18:43 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! shytech74 Posted: 2005/10/6 10:26:22
------------------- So you're a Roman? ------------------- No. I was born and raised Roman, attended RC seminary and have studied theology for years. I swam the Thames in '02, during, but not merely because of, the pedophile scandals. I left the RC Church because I believe it is no longer a good guardian and teacher of the historical Catholic Tradition. There is too much Counter-Reformation overlay, as well as too much institutionalism and legalism. In short, I see Rome as an Imperium, not a Church. ------------------------------------------------- Consigned to the dustbin of irrelevance so as to clear away the debris choking the light of the Gospel and the grace of God. ------------------------------------------------ And just what is the "Gospel"? What makes you so sure that the doctrine preached by the 16th Century "Reformers" and their followers (total depravity, predestination, forensic justification, imputed righteousness, Sola Scriptura, rejection of Tradition, sermon-over-sacrament and the rest of that junk) is actually "the Gospel"? For myself, there is nothing that brings me closer to my Lord and Savior than the divine gifts that he has given me through His Body and Bride, ie., the liturgy and liturgical year, the sacraments, the saints, images, etc. ---------------------------------------------- I can't say as they removed the stress on that...it is lazy rich folks increased in goods and having need of nothing, that have removed the emphasis --------------------------------------------- I meant "asceticism" in its technical sense - the Christian monastic life. ------------------------------------------ If you analyse the life and work of the Mediaeval Roman Church, you will see that they were starving the masses of illiterate peasants...withholding the "Bread of Life" which is the Word of God. You are dwelling in a fantasy world jmichal. Your golden age of Romanism did not ever truly exist. If it was so wonderful, it would not have ended under the judgement of God for it's sin. ------------------------------------------------ Uhm...not to sound cocky, but I'll put my knowledge of ancient and medieval Christianity up against anyone's. I don't deal in fantasies. ---------------------------------------------- Move along shall we? ------------------------------- Where are we going? Gee, that was fun. Peace, John |
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/6 22:38 Updated: 2005/10/7 18:48 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! --------------------------------------------------
[shytech74 spake: If you analyse the life and work of the Mediaeval Roman Church, you will see that they were starving the masses of illiterate peasants...withholding the "Bread of Life" which is the Word of God.] -------------------------------------------------- Actually, the Bible isn't "the Word of God". Jesus is. And He has always presented Himself to even the most illiterate of His disciples, through His Church, in every Mass. Even during the darkest depths of "the Dark Ages". Peace, John |
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| Traktaryan | Posted: 2005/10/6 23:36 Updated: 2005/10/6 23:36 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/16 From: Posts: 710 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! "Poster: jmichal Posted: 2005/10/6 21:15:34
[quote: Oh, what do you know anyway? You were always late for work crew! closequote] Okay, what scary Son (or Daughter?) of the House is lurking out there, making scandalous accusations about me being late for workcrew! It never happened! I occasionally didn't show up...but only for good reason! And the Articles are still icky. Peace, John of Nashotah" ============ John of Nashtoah: You broke the vacuum cleaner, too! And one day, either at Evensong, or at the Thursday Eucharist, a yellow jacket landed on the back of your neck. As for the 39 Articles: Learn Them, Know Them, LIVE THEM!!! It's me: Traktaryan!! |
| Traktaryan | Posted: 2005/10/6 23:43 Updated: 2005/10/6 23:43 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/16 From: Posts: 710 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! "Poster: jmichal Posted: 2005/10/6 22:38:39
-------------------------------------------------- [shytech74 spake: If you analyse the life and work of the Mediaeval Roman Church, you will see that they were starving the masses of illiterate peasants...withholding the "Bread of Life" which is the Word of God.] -------------------------------------------------- Actually, the Bible isn't "the Word of God". Jesus is. And the Catholic Church (ancient, Medieval and modern) gives Him to her children in every Mass. Peace, John" ============ John of Nashotah: Your Catholicism is undeniably and firmly in place. Laud would be proud! Keep guessing, Traktaryan |
| Zonaras | Posted: 2005/10/7 9:35 Updated: 2005/10/7 9:37 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/9/30 From: Posts: 217 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! Shytech, the only "things" that set so-called Catholic Christianity (whether we are speaking of Roman Catholocism, Anglicanism, or Eastern Orthodoxy) apart from crass evangelical, fundamentalism are the seven sacraments. The Bible alone is not the only basis of the Church. If Apostolic succession died out, the scaraments would die out and so would the church. Biblically based Christianity without the seven sacraments would only a a museum piece and utterly worthless. You need both the sacraments and the Bible for salvation.As for all the tradition in use in Rome and Constantinople, one has to remember that tradition as always been considered of equal value with the Bible no matter what its source. Most Anglicans, especially those who are low church, forget that the Church of England broke off from Rome and lost much of the rich tradition that makes up Catholic Christianity. BTW, IMHO, it is next to impossible to mix Catholic Christianity, even of the Anglican variety, with protestantism especially of the Calvinist variety; it is like trying to mix oil and water.
Michal notes Where is the FULL sacramental and liturgical life of the patristic and medieval Church? It's been cut away. Where is the vital role played by the angels, the saints and the Mother of God in the life of the Church and the individual Christian? It's been cut away. Where is the sacramental power embodied in holy images and relics? jmichal --------------------------------------------- You note: Consigned to the dustbin of irrelevance so as to clear away the debris choking the light of the Gospel and the grace of God. If you are right, you have chosen to embrace a very hollow and empty form of the gospel. The various traditions you find so irrelevant do not choke the gospel, they ENHANCE it and make it much fuller than the dry views of John Calvin and those of his ilk. In a word, you cannot be a Catholic Christian of any variety without some of the various "traditions" that you decry. BTW, as a former member of the EOC, I am a aware that corruption can enter into the Church; any student of history knows that. |
| shytech74 | Posted: 2005/10/7 10:18 Updated: 2005/10/7 10:31 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/4/23 From: Ontario Canada Posts: 1054 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! "the seven sacraments."
quote by Zonaras -------------------------------------- Article XXV : "There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord. Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and Extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel (!), being such as have grown partly out of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures; but yet have not like nature of Sacraments with Baptism, and the Lord's Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God. The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them..." I was taught that the Dominical Sacraments were essential for salvation...the lesser Sacraments were essential for sanctification, and continued growth in the Christian life...a difference. I do not "decry" all tradition as a Puritan. I simply do not make Tradition an article of faith...the Bible can trump Tradition if Tradition is contrary to "God's Word written". Article VI : "Holy Scripture containeth ALL THINGS necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of ANY MAN, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation." (Of the Sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures for Salvation) |
| shytech74 | Posted: 2005/10/7 10:27 Updated: 2005/10/7 10:27 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/4/23 From: Ontario Canada Posts: 1054 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! Actually, the Bible isn't "the Word of God". Jesus is. quote by jmichal.
------------------------------------------ I'm not sure how you interpret stuff then if the Bible is just a collection of poetry, fables, and biased histories with a general moral principle....? |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/7 15:06 Updated: 2005/10/7 15:06 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! PRISCA,
Let me add a little more levity: Hermeneutical principles became the "herme(neutered) principle." |
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/7 19:16 Updated: 2005/10/7 19:22 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! [Thus spake shytech74: I'm not sure how you interpret stuff then if the Bible is just a collection of poetry, fables, and biased histories with a general moral principle....?]
--------------------------------------------------- And I'm not sure where I EVER expounded such a low view of Scripture. What, if you're not a sola scriptura fundamentalist then you're a card-carrying member of the Jesus Seminar? Please tell me there are other options besides those! I believe Scripture is divinely inspired. I believe it contains God's revelation about Himself, about us, and about His plan for the world's salvation. I believe, to paraphrase St. Jerome, that ignorance of the Bible is ignorance of Christ. However, I also believe that the Bible is a collection of many different inspired writings - fiction as well as non-fiction. Confusing them will only confuse the believer. I believe that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is the soil apart from which the tree of Scripture will die. I believe that reading Scripture apart from sacred Tradition is like trying to read a book in darkness. And I believe that God has meant for our Christian life to be more than just Bible-reading and sermons. Anyway, I want the whole, rich banquet of Christian life to which God has invited us. I won't be satisfied with soda crackers and ice water. Peace, John |
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/7 19:20 Updated: 2005/10/7 19:20 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! John of Nashotah:
Your Catholicism is undeniably and firmly in place. Laud would be proud! Keep guessing, Traktaryan ---------------------------------------------------- Gee...that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me ...here at the Land o' Virtue, anyway. And shall we play 20 Questions? Do you still live in a suburb of Delafield, WI or are you somewhere else, now? Peace, J of N  |
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| shytech74 | Posted: 2005/10/7 22:57 Updated: 2005/10/7 22:57 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/4/23 From: Ontario Canada Posts: 1054 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! "the Bible is a collection of many different inspired writings - fiction as well as non-fiction."
quote by jmichal ----------------------------------- Inspired fiction....  Let me know when you've published your edition. I suggest that the "fiction" be red lettered or italicised. "fact" could be standard type, and actual provable words of Jesus could be BOLD. Just so us stupid people will know which is which so we can skip the fiction. I agree that there is more to life than Bible reading and sermons. |
| shytech74 | Posted: 2005/10/7 23:10 Updated: 2005/10/7 23:10 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/4/23 From: Ontario Canada Posts: 1054 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! Anyway, I want the whole, rich banquet of Christian life to which God has invited us
quote by jmichal ------------------------------------------- We are not promised anything of the sort in this life. The Christian life is not about getting what we want. It is about giving all we have. Surrendering our entire selves as a living sacrifice acceptable to God...whether we feel "fed" or not. Faith is "keeping on and standing firm" when God is silent, or appears to be leading us into treacherous waters, or calling us to labour in a field of service that is draining and exhausting both spiritually and physically. Your attitude is in reality a very modern version of the Israelites complaining in the wilderness about the fruit in Egypt...as they became sick of the dull and tasteless manna. It makes me sick. ---------------------------- I won't be satisfied with soda crackers and ice water. quote by jmichal ------ So says the man who bemoans the dissolution of the monasteries and the neglect of asceticism in reformed circles... |
| Traktaryan | Posted: 2005/10/7 23:19 Updated: 2005/10/7 23:19 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/16 From: Posts: 710 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! "Do you still live in a suburb of Delafield, WI or are you somewhere else, now?"
============ Yes. Traktaryan |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/8 0:48 Updated: 2005/10/8 0:48 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! [shytech74 opined: Inspired fiction...
]--------------------------------------------------- Okay, was the Parable of the Prodigal Son inspired, or uninspired? Was it fictional or non-fictional? And eyerolling emoticons are a sorry substitute for substantive argument. |
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/8 1:11 Updated: 2005/10/8 1:27 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! ------------------------------------------------
We are not promised anything of the sort in this life. The Christian life is not about getting what we want. It is about giving all we have. Surrendering our entire selves as a living sacrifice acceptable to God...whether we feel "fed" or not. Faith is "keeping on and standing firm" when God is silent, or appears to be leading us into treacherous waters, or calling us to labour in a field of service that is draining and exhausting both spiritually and physically. ----------------------------------------------------- Oh, brother. I don't know what is more annoying about puritanism, its carefully cultivated vacuity or its overpowering self-satisfaction. I'm not talking about man's longing to have his sensuality endulged. I'm talking about gratefully accepting the food and the medicine that God has provided us for our spiritual healing and strength. I know Protestants are vaguely offended by the incarnation - by the fact that grace is always mediated to us through material stuff. But the fact is that God does use these means, because of our own limitations. And for you to claim that your firmness of mind and character enable you to rise above such needs is the height of pride - which, if I remember correctly - is the deadliest of the 7 deadly sins. ------------------------------------------------- Your attitude is in reality a very modern version of the Israelites complaining in the wilderness about the fruit in Egypt...as they became sick of the dull and tasteless manna. It makes me sick. ----------------------------------------------------- I'll pray to Our Lady of Walsingham for you. Perhaps you'll get better. Peace, John |
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| Zonaras | Posted: 2005/10/8 1:47 Updated: 2005/10/8 1:47 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/9/30 From: Posts: 217 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! Shytech, I am aware of article 25. Your comment about two sacraments begs the question. There were seven sacraments in the English Church until the Reformation and, in the High Church, there still are. I remember forty years ago a joke they use to make about the diocese of Kansas City (High Church) and the diocese of St' Louis (Low Church) Because the dividing line between the two dioceses was Columbia, it was said that one would loose five sacraments when driving through Columbia from west to east! I notice you chose not to comment on my statement on how tradition is important and that Calvin style Christianity is a museum piece!
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| shytech74 | Posted: 2005/10/8 11:15 Updated: 2005/10/8 11:15 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/4/23 From: Ontario Canada Posts: 1054 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! And for you to claim that your firmness of mind and character enable you to rise above such needs is the height of pride - quote by jmichal
------------------------------------------------- I made no such claim. You have twisted my words to suit your agenda. I believe we are created in God's image, and He is Spirit, so we are to walk and live and worship and fight the warfare, in spirit and in truth: "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. Foe we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wiskedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand (note that pride is excluded here as it is God's armour that protects and strengthens us... not our own) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, WHICH IS THE WORD OF GOD: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; and for me..." Eph 6:10-18. Here are essentials. No mention is made of catering to the senses of the body, or appealing to our eyes. That is extracurricular and nice...but not essential. We must operate in the spiritual realm to do God's work. For our worship to stop at the tactile level puts up roadblocks that keep us back from experiencing new growth and victory in our spiritual life. This is all rather tedious. If you knew me, and my life, and my family history, you would understand. All my extended family on my father's side are "good Catholics"...They are devout while in Church...and carnal the other 99% of the time. There is no depth to their faith, no love for God that spills out in their everyday encounters with the world, they never want to talk about the things of God..they don't know much about the Bible, just give them a bit of bread and tell them that will get them to heaven, and that's all they care about...to hell with the discipline and struggle of living a Christian life 24/7, and honouring God in all their ways. Strikes me as a lopsided and void relationship with God. A marriage in name only. |
| shytech74 | Posted: 2005/10/8 11:24 Updated: 2005/10/8 11:24 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/4/23 From: Ontario Canada Posts: 1054 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! "The various traditions you find so irrelevant do not choke the gospel, they ENHANCE it and make it much fuller"
quote by Zonaras ---------------------------- The Gospel needs no enhancing, rather it needs living and preaching. If God had desired extras, I'm sure Jesus would have discoursed on something so important, rather than leaving it to speculation. -------------------------------------------------- "the dry views of John Calvin and those of his ilk." quote by Zonaras ----------------------------------------------- I find Calvinism an abhorrent aberration that ignores the true nature and Being of God. |
| shytech74 | Posted: 2005/10/8 11:41 Updated: 2005/10/8 11:41 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/4/23 From: Ontario Canada Posts: 1054 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! Where is the FULL sacramental and liturgical life of the patristic and medieval Church? It's been cut away. Where is the vital role played by the angels, the saints and the Mother of God in the life of the Church and the individual Christian? It's been cut away. Where is the sacramental power embodied in holy images and relics? They've been cut away. Where is the stress which the gospels clearly place on the ascetical life? That's been cut way, too. What partisans of Dr. Toon's so-called "anglican Way" are left with is a pathetically reduced Christianity, without so much of the richness which fed the Christian Faithful for 1500 years.
question by jmichal --------------------------------------------- My Numbers reference: "And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, 'Who shall give us flesh to eat? We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick: But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes." And the manna was as coriander seed, and the colour thereof as the colour of bdellium. And the people went about and gathered it, and ground it in mills, or beat it in a mortar, and baked it in pans, and made cakes of it, and the taste of it was as the taste of fresh oil." Numbers 11:4-8 They remembered the rosetinted highlights of Egypt. Gone from their memories were the agonising welts of the task-master's whips, the "great rigour" they laboured under, the relentless demands for more and more bricks, the cruel treatment from the Pharoah who forgot Joseph. Modern believers forget the cruelty and tyranny of the corrupt mediaeval Roman Church. The endless demands for MONEY, MONEY, and more MONEY. All those who long to return to those days, would come scrambling back after a month. God is immutable, but God is not static, certainly not inactive. To long for the imagined good 'ol days, is a waste of time. With God it is always NOW. TODAY is the accepted time. Seek ye the Lord while He may be found. Today, if ye will harden not your heart... |
| shytech74 | Posted: 2005/10/8 12:04 Updated: 2005/10/8 12:04 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/4/23 From: Ontario Canada Posts: 1054 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! Okay, was the Parable of the Prodigal Son inspired, or uninspired? Was it fictional or non-fictional?
question by jmichal. --------------------------------------- I know of no evangelical protestant clergy who preach the Parables as if they actually took place. Your point somehow eludes me... Parables are illustrations that Jesus used to amplify and explain concepts that are almost beyond comprehension. "The Kingdom of God is like..." or "To what shall the Kingdon of God be likened...?" are clues as to how these parables should be viewed. Would you say a preacher "lied" to his congregation because he used an illustration or allegory to clarify or emphasise one of his sermon points? I like to play it safe. I take the entire Bible Genesis to Revelation as inspired and authoritative. "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (see also 2 Tim 4:3-8 as applicable to the present matter. Is Paul guilty of "the height of pride"? or bragging? or is his boast based on God's everlasting faithfulness and grace?) |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/8 13:03 Updated: 2005/10/8 13:03 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! [Quoth shytech: Here are essentials. No mention is made of catering to the senses of the body, or appealing to our eyes. That is extracurricular and nice...but not essential. We must operate in the spiritual realm to do God's work. For our worship to stop at the tactile level puts up roadblocks that keep us back from experiencing new growth and victory in our spiritual life.]
--------------------------------------------------- It's like I've always said. Scratch a protestant and you'll find a Marcionite. You long for a "pure" spirituality - invisible and uncorrupted by the material and the sensory. This is prideful, and a rebellion against God. He created us as a union of body and spirit, with senses, imagination and emotions. When giving the Chosen People their code of worship in the Torah He mandated cult furnishings, priestly vestments and rituals to perform. When it was time to effect our salvation, He sent His Son to become incarnate. And His Son called and organized a visible Church, gave it nascent structure and rules for living, AND gave it patterns of prayer and rituals to perform. He even used mud (among the lowliest of physical substances) as a "sacrament" to heal the eyes of the man born blind. Apparently, God takes our embodied nature seriously. Perhaps we should, as well. As for your argument that "bad Catholics" prove that Catholicism is bad, well...I'm unimpressed. You can find lax, lukewarm and "carnal" Christians in every Christian tradition. That tells you nothing about which brand of Christianity is correct, or even whether there is a correct brand. 25 years of studying and living Christianity have convinced me that there is, and that the most correct and complete brand is ecclesial, traditional, sacramental, liturgical and hierarchical - ie., Catholic. NOT necessarily Roman, however. "Catholic" and "Roman" are not identical terms. Peace, John |
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/8 13:12 Updated: 2005/10/8 13:12 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! [shytech just keeps on going: Modern believers forget the cruelty and tyranny of the corrupt mediaeval Roman Church. The endless demands for MONEY, MONEY, and more MONEY. All those who long to return to those days, would come scrambling back after a month.]
------------------------------------------------- There has never been a period in its history when the Church was 100 % pure and at peace. We just have to read St. Paul's letters to the Corinthians to see that. That being said, however, there is good evidence that the late Medieval Church was not as corrupt, nor the late Medieval people as disaffected, as 400 years of protestant and secularist historians (ie., propagandists) have pictured it. Eamon Duffy's 'The Stripping of the Altars' is a good, solid study of how vital Catholicism was in 15th century England, before it was overthrown by Henry VIII's coup d'eglise. |
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| Traktaryan | Posted: 2005/10/8 15:53 Updated: 2005/10/8 15:53 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/16 From: Posts: 710 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! God . . . created us as a union of body and spirit, with senses, imagination and emotions. When giving the Chosen People their code of worship in the Torah He mandated cult furnishings, priestly vestments and rituals to perform. When it was time to effect our salvation, He sent His Son to become incarnate. And His Son called and organized a visible Church, gave it nascent structure and rules for living, AND gave it patterns of prayer and rituals to perform. He even used mud (among the lowliest of physical substances) as a "sacrament" to heal the eyes of the man born blind. Apparently, God takes our embodied nature seriously. Perhaps we should, as well.
25 years of studying and living Christianity have convinced me that there is, and that the most correct and complete brand is ecclesial, traditional, sacramental, liturgical and hierarchical - ie., Catholic. NOT necessarily Roman, however. "Catholic" and "Roman" are not identical terms. Peace, John ========== Good stuff, John of Nashotah. If only Rome would agree! Traktaryan |
| shytech74 | Posted: 2005/10/8 18:52 Updated: 2005/10/8 18:52 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/4/23 From: Ontario Canada Posts: 1054 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! "Scratch a protestant and you'll find a Marcionite. "
quote by jmichal ------------------------ Or worse yet, an Albigensian!  "quick!heresy must be suppressed! Send in Simon de Montfort and slaughter 'em all...God must be avenged for this affront to papal authority...blood must flow of they won't recant!" |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/9 0:49 Updated: 2005/10/9 0:50 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! Hand on the Bible now, jmichal---
Were you among the Israelites when the Lord fed them Manna? How do you know what taste it is? VOL is very curious............. |
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| Anonymous | Posted: 2005/10/9 0:52 Updated: 2005/10/9 0:53 |
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Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! shytech74,
Apropo jmichal's quote: Doesn't it take a Marcionite to know a Marcionite? |
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| Zonaras | Posted: 2005/10/10 6:26 Updated: 2005/10/10 6:27 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/9/30 From: Posts: 217 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! "The various traditions you find so irrelevant do not choke the gospel, they ENHANCE it and make it much fuller"
quote by Zonaras ---------------------------- The Gospel needs no enhancing, rather it needs living and preaching. If God had desired extras, I'm sure Jesus would have discoursed on something so important, rather than leaving it to speculation. quote by Shytech Actually, you obtain salvation through personal belief and through the agency of the church through her sacraments, at least that is what most Christians of the Orthodox and catholic tradition believe (pace the views of Martin Luther). The Bible alone may give you part part of the picture, but not all of it. Your comment about what Jesus might of said or believed is sheer speculation (I am being polite). When being forced to choose to follow thoughts on Jesus from the mouths of such fathers as st. John Chrysostom, Augustine, Cyril, Athanasius, or Shytech, I would follow the Doctors of the Church both East and West. In a word, you also need apostolic succession in a church for make it an instrument of salvation through Jesus. Holy Writ cannot supply the sacraments. |
| shytech74 | Posted: 2005/10/10 11:03 Updated: 2005/10/10 11:03 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/4/23 From: Ontario Canada Posts: 1054 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! 'kay...
So that's why Ecusa and the AC of C are in such great shape...they have all the Sacraments,,,and chucked the literal meaning of "Holy Writ" |
| Zonaras | Posted: 2005/10/10 18:01 Updated: 2005/10/10 18:05 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/9/30 From: Posts: 217 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! So that's why Ecusa and the AC of C are in such great shape...they have all the Sacraments,,,and chucked the literal meaning of "Holy Writ" quote Shytech
Please shytech; you could also add the Roman and Byzantine churches to your list. Since Churches are institutions run by men, there will always be corruption of somekind. That's why we have the sacraments because writ alone cannot save!!You know as well as I that televangilists like Jime Bakker can be just as corrupt as any one else and he was a great Bible thumper! Additionally, the fact that a priest masy be gay or a sinner does not invalidate either his orders or the sacraments he or she may dispense. I rather deal with robinson than some Bible thumper and I have no love for the man's politics. He is, whether one likes the fact or not (and I don't like it), a legitimately consecrated bishop The EOC or ECUSA are both sacramental churches and, despite your comments, that gives them their value. If they only offered readings from the Bible and sermons based on the Bible without the sacraments, they would be worthless. I would go back to Constantinople. I rejoined ECUSA because it allowed me to think for myself. |
| shytech74 | Posted: 2005/10/11 0:39 Updated: 2005/10/11 0:39 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/4/23 From: Ontario Canada Posts: 1054 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! I would go back to Constantinople.
quote by Zonaras ------------ Try "Istanbul" "If they only offered readings from the Bible and sermons based on the Bible without the sacraments, they would be worthless." quote by Zonaras ------------------------- Judging by Griswold's "sermon" in Nevada, I would agree with you  |
| Zonaras | Posted: 2005/10/11 2:37 Updated: 2005/10/11 2:37 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/9/30 From: Posts: 217 |
Re: Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1571) - how boring! Actually any one who has been Orthodox, and especially Greek Orthodox,still call the place Constantinople. But iF Istanbul pleases you, so be it. BTW, the turkish term from the Greek eis ton polin (to the city). Where ar you going would ask a local Byzantine, Eistenpolin is the answer. The words run together and one gets Eistenpol or Istanbul.
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