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Exclusives : PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Posted by David Virtue on 2005/8/9 13:40:00 (6134 reads)

PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?

News Analysis

By David W. Virtue

Few things, apart from the possible disintegration of the Anglican Communion arouse a firestorm of anger and conflict than how the Anglican Communion should respond to the ongoing crisis in the Middle East.

To divest or not to divest, that is the question.

The Episcopal Church has, over the years, taken a decidedly pro Palestinian stand with General Convention adopting a series of resolutions affirming the right of the Palestinians to a state of their own, protesting the building of the wall, expanding the settlements and destroying Palestinian homes. General Convention has endorsed a two state solution and a shared Jerusalem. These resolutions are essential to the negotiations of a two state solution and a shared Jerusalem, the church argues. "We advocate all these positions to our government," says the church.

But how this should be done is another matter entirely. The Episcopal Church along with the Presbyterian Church, the United Methodist Church and the United Church of Christ have all urged consideration of divestment, at a very minimum economic pressure urging Israel to be more accommodating to the Palestinians, many of whom are Christians.

Some Jewish groups accuse the churches of singling out Israel for blame and failing to address the Palestinians' role in perpetuating the violence. Several have even said they see anti-Semitism behind the churches' moves. Are we for the Palestinians and against Israel; or for Israel and against Palestine? Are we for disinvestment or against it? The issues are complex and grow more complex even as Israel moves out of Gaza.

Behind disinvestment is the notion that peace, love and brotherhood will ultimately reign in the Middle East if Israel is appropriately punished. Many American Jews and not a few Israelis believe it is a not so subtle form of anti-Semitism and a desire to bring Israel to its knees.

At the center of the Anglican controversy over divestment is the Anglican Peace and Justice Network a leftist organization whose most recent statement on the Israeli/Palestinian Conflict includes such choice words as these: "We conclude from our experience that there is little will on behalf of the Israeli government to recognize the rights of the Palestinians to a sovereign state to be created in the West Bank - which includes East Jerusalem - and Gaza. Israel, with the complicity of the United States, seems determined to flaunt international laws, whether they are the Geneva Conventions, United Nations resolutions or the most recent decision of the International Court of Justice in declaring the separation wall illegal. In fact, we note that this latter decision is based on building the wall on Palestinian territory, which once again demonstrates the illegality of the Occupation itself."

There would appear to be little objectivity with regard to Israel's right to self-protection from self-immolating bombers and security within their borders. The APJN headlined its statement: "Give Sight to the Blind and Freedom to the Captives" but for whom?

It might be argued that both groups are spiritually blind, both have very little freedom within their geographical confines and both are held captive to each other.

While the APJN says it represents 23 Provinces of the worldwide 75,000,000 member Anglican Communion, it should not be assumed that the APJN speaks for all Anglicans.

The Anglican Communion does have a decidedly strong Anglican presence in the Middle East through its leader Archbishop Riah (Jerusalem) a formidable advocate for Palestinian rights and much more. When the Anglican Consultative Council met in Nottingham recently and the ACC voted to 'commend' divestment from companies supporting Israel's polices, based on a report on Israel by the Anglican Peace and Justice Network, Archbishop Riah made it very clear to me that unless the West Bank situation is resolved it will be back to the drawing boards and the suicide killings will start up again.

However not all Anglicans agree with him. The Rev. Tony Higton and his church in the Old City of Jerusalem have gone out of their way to repudiate much of the APJN's claims.

Following a visit to Israel and a particularly sharply-worded condemnation of Israel by the Anglican Peace and Justice Network (APJN) that excoriated the government for "the draconian conditions of the continuing occupation under which so many Palestinians live," Higton's Israel Trust of the Anglican Church (ITAC) issued its own statement repudiating the APJN as "biased and unjust."

"How can the visitors on the APJN commission... hope to be taken seriously," the ITAC statement asked, "when they spend a mere eight days in the country, without proper consultation on the Israeli side, then produce a statement, implying they understand the complexities of the conflict, and making pronouncements about it?"

"The APJN statement loses credibility because it contains very inadequate references to terrorism and its effects, and no reference to the need of the Israelis to defend themselves," ITAC continued.

He also went on to say that the church should recognize that the Palestinians experience economic disaster and lack of infrastructure, partly through corruption, injustice and oppression on the part of some of their own leaders.

The ITAC statement concluded that "much of the church is predisposed, on the basis of inadequate information, to accept anti-Israel statements."

Higton, who has lived in Jerusalem with his wife since 2002, told The Jerusalem Post from London that the Anglican Church "needs to be praying for people on both sides, rather than start ladling out condemnation. We need to be more Christian about it."

IN the US a number of Episcopal bishops have criticized the Anglican call for divestment from Israel including Tom Shaw, Bishop of Massachusetts, Ed Little, Bishop of Northern Indiana, Geralyn Wolf, Bishop of Rhode Island, (the latter two have Jewish ancestry) and Mark Sisk the Episcopal bishop of New York who criticized the Anglican Church recently for its divestment proposal. The national Episcopal Church headquarters later put out wrist slapping statement saying that it still supported the divestment call.

But the recent Anglican Consultative Council 2005 Resolution, Peace and Justice Network on Palestine - Israel Conflict put out in Nottingham produced the greatest outrage from across the Anglican Communion prompting the Secretary General of the Anglican Communion, Canon Kenneth Kearon to issue a clarifying statement.

He wrote: "There has been much comment, and not a little misunderstanding, about what the resolution said about investments. It did not call for dis-investment in Israel. Instead, it commended the Episcopal Church (USA) for resolving to take appropriate action 'where it finds that its corporate investments support the occupation of Palestinian lands or violence against innocent Israelis' and encourages others to do likewise within the framework of their ethical investment strategies. It further 'encouraged strategies that support the infrastructure of a future Palestinian State', which I understand is Israeli government policy also."

"Jewish-Christian relations, especially within Britain, are much valued by Anglicans, who have always been to the forefront of these dialogues, both national and local. At their best, they are characterized by a willingness to listen to each other and to engage with the context of each. No doubt the ongoing violence, death and destruction from which both Israelis and Palestinians suffer, has been discussed on many occasions, as a shared understanding of the complexities of the situation emerges."

Melanie Phillips a British journalist and author who writes on political and social issues for the Daily Mail ripped the ACC on the divestment controversy calling their statement "a truly egregious conflation of sanctimoniousness, disingenuousness and sheer moral humbug."

She blasted the ACC saying that the ACC's message to Jews is clear: "we value you enormously, just as long as you don't support Israel. If you do support it, we'll treat you as a pariah. In other words, Jews are in one box, Israel is in another. This is to deny Jewish peoplehood. It is also to deny the anti-Jewish nature of its singling out of the Jewish state for pariah status."

"It is too soon to forget what centuries of what is called the "teaching of contempt" towards Jews did to the Christian soul of Europe. It is a religious obligation - or to put it another way, it is what God wants - that Christians should try to undo the consequences of that dark tradition. That means denouncing anything that seems to call in question Israel's right to exist."

In an effort to defuse the anger, Kearon defended the Anglican Peace and Justice Network's (APJN) report from Jerusalem against charges that it offered a biased and dishonest account of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. He also criticized Jewish leaders in the United Kingdom as ill informed and aggressive in their criticism of the work done by the APJN.

"I have been saddened by much of the response to the debate and resolution on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict" at ACC-13 in Nottingham, he wrote, "especially among Jewish representatives in Britain. The tone of these responses does little to acknowledge the responsible nature of the debate."

That did not placate Professor Irene Lancaster of the Centre for Jewish Studies at the University of Manchester who disagrees strongly with Canon Kearon. She blasted the APJN report saying, "I am an expert on Christian-Jewish relations over the last 2000 years. I have no hesitation in placing the APJN report firmly within the category of religious anti-Judaism and more modern forms of anti-Semitism. Apart from lies about Jewish history, the idea that Jews living in the 'Holy Land' defile the name of Jesus is particularly offensive to Jews. In addition, the citation of Jewish scripture against Jews is a classic usage in age-old Christian anti-Semitism."

She ripped the 'anti-Semitism' of the report saying the whole tone of it was extremely hostile to both Israel as a Jewish sovereign state and to Jews generally. "The country was compared to Buchenwald concentration camp and Jesus' Jewish antecedents were ignored or overlooked. It is ludicrous to suggest that the meeting of the APJN in Jerusalem, the capital of Israel, at Jewish New Year was not held deliberately at that time, to prevent Jewish dialog with the group. It is also not irrelevant that Jenny Te Paa (NZ) complained about the very strong statements made against the report by the Chief Rabbi of the UK and also by our umbrella lay leadership organization, the Board of Deputies, which worked in conjunction with myself. She called this 'lobbying'. What is wrong with that, I wonder?" She also said that the APJN can't possibly have met representative Jews as the delegation visited Israel during the Jewish holiday of Rosh Hashanah.

But one voice of reason and moderation that has arisen in recent days is that of AMIA Bishop John Rodgers who, on reflecting on the APJN situation wrote, "while it is good to hear recommendations from idealistic "peace" societies such as the Anglican Peace and Justice Network (APJN) it is never wise to endorse them or to expect from them a wise, practical, balanced solution to international violence. And the latest recommendations about disinvestiture from Israel proposed by them and disappointingly endorsed by the rather liberal ACC, lives up to our worst expectations. Their fact finding trip to Israel, which did not consult with any high ranking officials of the State of Israel but did consult with Palestinian sources, indicates that they had their agenda and recommendations in mind before they came. This was entirely predictable."

"No one should write Israel a blank check, or the Palestinians either. Nor can we write Islamic believers a blank check because they are "religious". Rather as we try to think things through, let justice and mercy be even handed as applied to all parties as best as we are able. However the use of terrorism can never be condoned. It is an entirely unacceptable method of redressing injustice. It is time we say so with no ambiguity."

"Israel has continually said that as terror is held in check and stopped negotiations could and would go forward. They have, time and again, held back in the hopes that the terrorism would diminish and stop. There seems to be some advance at the present, if Hamas and others do not destroy the present opportunity. What a foolish time to suggest disinvestiture from Israel. This is a time to encourage both sides, but by all means to be strong in our condemnation of terrorism. It is also time for the Palestinians and all Muslims everywhere to repudiate it as unacceptable. Had they done so earlier there would be far more justice and economic opportunity for both Israel and the Palestinians than now exists."

END

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Poster Thread
igregory2
Posted: 2005/8/9 17:34  Updated: 2005/8/9 17:34
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/3
From: Florida
Posts: 223
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
""Higton, who has lived in Jerusalem with his wife since 2002, told The Jerusalem Post from London that the Anglican Church "needs to be praying for people on both sides, rather than start ladling out condemnation. We need to be more Christian about it.""

Ecusa/CofE needs to be more Christian about just about everything...
Joe of the Mountain
Posted: 2005/8/9 17:51  Updated: 2005/8/9 17:51
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/3
From:
Posts: 3472
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Let me see if I understand this correctly. The Anglican Communion, which in this case means "J'ECUSA!", wants to tell quarreling Mohammedans and Jews how to run their respective affairs after 1,500 years of mutual, reciprocating mayhem.

Even as J'ECUSA! cannot decide if there is such as thing as Christian, or what a Christian does or believes except for obeying he-she's bishop's orders.

Makes perfect sense to me. But then, it's an Episcopagan thing.
Anonymous
Posted: 2005/8/9 18:36  Updated: 2005/8/10 2:27
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Rereading Genesis one should see that this is more than a family squabble between two Semitic peoples. When Sarah told Abraham to go into Haggar and she begot Ishmael and then a little later Sarah banishes Haggar and Ishmael out into the desert, the enmity between the Jews and the Muslims will not be healed until Christ comes again. Remember, "his hand shall be on the nations and nations hand shall be on him." Ishmael became the "Wild Child" whose progeny we have to deal with in a Godly manner.

Pax,

Johannes
Anonymous
Posted: 2005/8/10 1:28  Updated: 2005/8/10 1:28
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Quite right, Johannes! Good observation.

Funny......the Middle East teeters on the brink of a conflagration over a sexual act that should not have taken place 4000 years ago....

Now an entire Church is destoying itself over a sexual act that should not be happening....(amongst other things of course)

Parallels anyone?
Anonymous
Posted: 2005/8/10 2:32  Updated: 2005/8/10 2:32
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Oh RootBranch,

You have a God-given gift of seeing things in such a delectable perspective ROTFLOL I wish I had your gift of rhetoric that is both incisive and funny at the same time. It is that type of gift that makes people sit up and hear, listen and comprehend. Kudos to you dear sir.

In Xrist,

Johannes
mathman
Posted: 2005/8/10 9:03  Updated: 2005/8/10 9:03
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/5/26
From: Rockville, MD
Posts: 1064
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
If only . . .
One wishes for (but does not expect to see) any solid and well-researched scholarship on this issue. Who was in the Holy Land in 1946? What thriving nation-state had built a civilization and culture in the land? What progressive culture had arisen, built roads, electrical generators, water supplies, and towns?
What thriving culture was systematically deprived of its land by the creation of Israel? What group of refugees were given welcome by the surrounding nations (who were of the same ethnic group)?
What horror perpetrated from 1938 to 1945 impelled the new UN to create a Jewish sanctuary? Oh, that's right. I forgot. Mohammed Atta (or whatever his name is) made his scholastic reputation by proving that the Holocaust did not happen. I remember now.
FACT: there was nothing in the Holy Land in 1946. No roads, no electricity, no water, nothing.
FACT: those who were in the land were offered a legitimate part of the new Israel but instead exiled themselves.
FACT: the surrounding nations CLOSED THEIR BORDERS to the few Palestinians who sought refuge.
FACT: the reason for being of the Palestine Liberation Organization is the extermination of Israel.

And where are we on this issue? It sounds to me like the conclusion is to kill all the Jews and then there will be peace in the world.

As another brilliant poster has written, it was Abram's failure to believe God which led to the birth of Ishmael. And an act of sexual activity which should not have happened.

So history is repeating itself.
Anonymous
Posted: 2005/8/10 15:20  Updated: 2005/8/10 15:20
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Dear Mathman,

You certainly give a brilliant analysis of the Israeli-Palestinian problematique. If I may humbly add - the Palestinians are not a separate ethnic group, they are Arabs that have exiled themselves in Palestine(as you point out). The word Arab means Wanderer(Bedouin), Nomadic - there are other less favorable meanings so I wont go into them. Yes, the Jews have taken a very poor piece of scrubby land and by dint of hard work have crafted a very livable environment. I hate to say it but it makes the Arabs look like they are really lazy. While the Arabs are languishing in refugee camps, the U.N. PLO, EUtopia and Arab so-called leaders wail about injustices instead of doing something about it, expecting the tiny nation of Israel to bail-out their sorry asses. Yassir Arafat played a very crafty game of subterfuge and obfuscation but now he is worm-food. His wife safely ensconced in Paris with a 200 million dollar a year stipend while the average Palestinian/Arab yearly wage being 2000 dollars a year. Tell me where is the Justice here??? Arafat is the cause of the Palestinian/Arab misery in the refugee camps and also EUtopia does its share by trying to douse the fire with Nitromethane.

In Xrist,

Johannes
essodalori
Posted: 2005/8/10 16:54  Updated: 2005/8/10 16:55
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/9/15
From:
Posts: 4904
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Hey mathman,

I'm with ya, 100%. Extremely good post. A great many people who opine on the Middle East have no idea how it got the way it is.

The truth is, the greatest evil to the Palestinians has been committed by the Arabs themselves - and on purpose.

With much Christian love,

Essodalori
OtisPage
Posted: 2005/8/10 18:29  Updated: 2005/8/10 18:29
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/4
From:
Posts: 667
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Peace and Justice? It is both a massive contradiction and irony that Episcopalians worry about Palestine and Israel when its own denomination is apostate and rent by division if not schism. Would God listen to those on an urgent problem of the world when they deny Him by their apostasy?

ECUSA’s witness is in league with Satan and those who do his dealings in church and political matters. Is the war in ECUSA any less serious and important than that occurring in the Islamic territories contested by the tribes of Mohammed and Judah? (Rev 9:4-6)
essodalori
Posted: 2005/8/10 18:42  Updated: 2005/8/10 18:42
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/9/15
From:
Posts: 4904
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
"Is the war in ECUSA any less serious and important than that occurring in the Islamic territories contested by the tribes of Mohammed and Judah? (Rev 9:4-6)"

---

No, indeedy, OtisPage. It is a form of avoidance on the part of ECUSA, and a way to 'be popular' with the politically correct crowd.

ECUSA's defacto motto: Anything, anything at all but trying to save souls with God's truth.

With Christian love,

Essodalori
Anonymous
Posted: 2005/8/10 23:57  Updated: 2005/8/11 1:11
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Thanks, Johannes.....your insights and strong conviction are of considerable enjoyment for me as well....

Saw where you were originally from Sweden....I still think Sweden makes the coolest fighter jets in the world. The first airplane model I ever built as a kid was a Saab 35 Draken, which, IMHO, was the finest implementation of the classic delta wing fighter jet ever. Love the Saab 37 Viggen and 39 Grippen as well. You can see some cool pictures of these jets including some stunning photos of a tricked out Draken on www.airshowpics.com Just click the link for Saab.

Also, I grew up with a semi-pro bass fisherman for a dad. We used nothing but Abu-Garcia reels, of course made in Sweden. Nothing like them in the world.

Grace and peace to you my friend in Christ.
Anonymous
Posted: 2005/8/11 1:05  Updated: 2005/8/11 1:05
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Dear RootBranch,

I am from Halmstad on the Southwestern Coast of Sweden between Lund and Gothenburg. Yeah, they might make some cool jets but the F-22 Raptor is gonna beat them and all the other contenders hands-down five ways from Sunday. Thanx a million for the links - they're great and I salute you for your kind compliments. I am but a humble servant in the Lord's vineyard who wants nothing but the best to happen to all those around me. I know my sharp tongue does give not a few people the willies - believe me, I'm trying to curb it and with the Lord's help I will master it.

Grace, Mercy and Peace to you brother RootBranch,

Johannes

ps. I don't really do any fish-catching these days so I can't say that I'm very knowledgeable in fishing equipment but I know of the brand which you speak and they are quite reliable.
Anonymous
Posted: 2005/8/11 1:41  Updated: 2005/8/11 1:41
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Yeah, they might make some cool jets but the F-22 Raptor is gonna beat them and all the other contenders hands-down five ways from Sunday

Performance wise, oh yeah.....even the Saab Grippen. But the F-22 Raptor is butt-ugly. I still think Northrop's F-23 should have won that contract. Better stealth, better overall performance (I know it didn't have the F-22 thrust vectoring but you've got those on your missles anyway) and a stunningly cool design and profile. The F-22 is a swoopier version of the F-15....the F-23 is a starfighter !

But what do I know....I still love the old delta wings, such as the Saab Draken and Viggen, Dassault Mirage (French), Convair's B-58 Hustler and the most extreme delta wing jet ever built, the XB-70 Valkyrie supersonic bomber. Mach 3+ with a service ceiling of over 77,000 feet...not far from the edge of space. Looked like something from Thunderbirds Are Go!
Anonymous
Posted: 2005/8/11 6:15  Updated: 2005/8/11 6:15
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Peace and Justice. ECUSA and the CoE can't find it among themselves.
JRoss
Posted: 2005/8/11 8:30  Updated: 2005/8/11 8:32
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/3/15
From: New Jersey
Posts: 896
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Rootbranch writes;""Funny......the Middle East teeters on the brink of a conflagration over a sexual act that should not have taken place 4000 years ago....
""

Maybe those in a church that was founded because of an adulterous relationship much later should mind their own business. Anything to get the mind off of immoral sexual practices.
JRoss
Posted: 2005/8/11 8:32  Updated: 2005/8/11 8:32
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/3/15
From: New Jersey
Posts: 896
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Rootbranch writes;""Funny......the Middle East teeters on the brink of a conflagration over a sexual act that should not have taken place 4000 years ago....
""

Maybe those in a church that was founded because of an adulterous relationship should mind their own business. Anything to get the mind off of immoral sexual practices.
JRoss
Posted: 2005/8/11 8:32  Updated: 2005/8/11 8:32
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/3/15
From: New Jersey
Posts: 896
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Rootbranch writes;""Funny......the Middle East teeters on the brink of a conflagration over a sexual act that should not have taken place 4000 years ago....
""

Maybe those in a church that was founded because of an adulterous relationship should mind their own business. Anything to get the mind off of immoral sexual practices.
JRoss
Posted: 2005/8/11 8:32  Updated: 2005/8/11 8:32
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/3/15
From: New Jersey
Posts: 896
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Rootbranch writes;""Funny......the Middle East teeters on the brink of a conflagration over a sexual act that should not have taken place 4000 years ago....
""

Maybe those in a church that was founded because of an adulterous relationship should mind their own business. Anything to get the mind off of immoral sexual practices.
Kurtthomas
Posted: 2005/8/11 11:55  Updated: 2005/8/11 11:55
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/4/13
From: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 248
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
That explains a lot, Johannes. You're obviously not a member of the Church of Sweden.
Anonymous
Posted: 2005/8/12 0:15  Updated: 2005/8/12 0:15
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Maybe those in a church that was founded because of an adulterous relationship should mind their own business. Anything to get the mind off of immoral sexual practices.

SPLASH ONE for Jross!

Yeah...forgot about that!

The Church that started with adultry will end because of abomination.

Anglican
Adultry
Abomination

That's an (un)Holy Trinity for ya' !
Kurtthomas
Posted: 2005/8/12 17:40  Updated: 2005/8/12 18:55
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/4/13
From: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 248
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Oh, I don’t know. How about

Papist
Pigheaded
Pukes

(With a Nazi for Pope)

How does that grab you for an unholy trinity?
essodalori
Posted: 2005/8/12 18:09  Updated: 2005/8/12 18:09
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/9/15
From:
Posts: 4904
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Well, truthfully, Kurt, as idiotic.

With Christian love,

Essodalori
Anonymous
Posted: 2005/8/12 21:42  Updated: 2005/8/12 21:42
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
DEAR LORD,

ANYONE WHO CAN COMMINGLE POPE BENEDICT XVI AND NAZI IN THE SAME PHRASE IS TRULY AND MENTALLY SICK, UNSTABLE IN THEIR CONSTITUTION AND HOPELESSLY RETARDED!!!
Anonymous
Posted: 2005/8/13 8:24  Updated: 2005/8/13 8:24
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
ANYONE WHO CAN COMMINGLE POPE BENEDICT XVI AND NAZI IN THE SAME PHRASE IS TRULY AND MENTALLY SICK, UNSTABLE IN THEIR CONSTITUTION AND HOPELESSLY RETARDED!!!

Amen, my brother, Amen. Stupidity is a bottomless pit and KT's remarks keep getting stupider and stupider - amazing.
Kurtthomas
Posted: 2005/8/13 13:34  Updated: 2005/8/13 13:34
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/4/13
From: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 248
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Now, don't try and defend that Roman dog!
igregory2
Posted: 2005/8/13 14:13  Updated: 2006/6/3 12:24
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/3
From: Florida
Posts: 223
 Re: God's Rottwelier


What does Pope Benedict XVI think of gay people?
In 1986 he wrote that homosexuality was an "intrinsic moral evil," and described it as "an objective disorder." He has driven out members of the church that have attempted a more liberal approach to homosexuality. He is also against legislative protection for gay people. One of the Pope's first public proclamations was to condemn the introduction in Spain of partnership rights for same sex couples. The Vatican warned Roman Catholic officials that any support of the bill would end in the loss of their positions and argued that every person linked with implementing homosexual marriages should oppose it, even if it meant losing their jobs.
Anonymous
Posted: 2005/8/13 15:24  Updated: 2005/8/13 15:24
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
OrthoDuckx,

KT's mind as Augean stable: Full of bovine and equine post-digestive byproducts that ferment into a toxic Stygian brew.
frcharlie
Posted: 2005/8/13 23:57  Updated: 2005/8/13 23:57
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2004/8/11
From: Central New York
Posts: 123
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
We can always rely on Kurt for a racist comment.

Charlie+

For the day is coming when they will no longer bear sound doctrine, but will gather around them preachers to tickle their ears. II Timothy 4:3f
frcharlie
Posted: 2005/8/14 0:02  Updated: 2005/8/14 0:02
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2004/8/11
From: Central New York
Posts: 123
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Congrats, Kurtie, 2 in 1 thread.

Charlie+

For the day is coming when they will no longer bear sound doctrine, but will gather around them preachers to tickle their ears. II Timothy 4:3f
frcharlie
Posted: 2005/8/14 0:04  Updated: 2005/8/14 0:04
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2004/8/11
From: Central New York
Posts: 123
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
I can't remember who Isaac Asimov was quoting in, "Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain."

Charlie+

For the day is coming when they will no longer bear sound doctrine, but will gather around them preachers to tickle their ears. II Timothy 4:3f
Kurtthomas
Posted: 2005/8/14 17:23  Updated: 2005/8/14 17:23
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/4/13
From: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 248
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
If you love that former national socialist youth so much, why don't you all become papists? Assuming you're not all ready.No foreign princes!
frcharlie
Posted: 2005/8/14 23:21  Updated: 2005/8/14 23:21
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2004/8/11
From: Central New York
Posts: 123
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
Not racist, just elitist. KT, can you do anything other than hurl insults?

Charlie+

For the day is coming when they will no longer bear sound doctrine, but will gather around them preachers to tickle their ears. II Timothy 4:3f
Kurtthomas
Posted: 2005/8/15 11:32  Updated: 2005/8/15 11:32
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/4/13
From: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 248
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
SPLASH ONE for Jross!

Yeah...forgot about that!

The Church that started with adultry will end because of abomination.

Anglican
Adultry
Abomination

That's an (un)Holy Trinity for ya' !

You papist priests can kiss my plump Anglican a@@! I'll NEVER kiss your Roman rings!

Just like papist priests, or evango a@@holes, for that matter! They criticize the Anglican, the Prodie, etc. But NEVER themselves! Or their friends!!
CarlGustav
Posted: 2005/8/23 1:15  Updated: 2005/8/23 1:15
Just popping in
Joined: 2005/8/23
From: Wisconsin
Posts: 14
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
I'm appalled at the lack civility here. I frequent a site dedicated to collecting and shooting military surplus firearms, www.milsurpshooter.net, and posts such as some of those above would result in the poster being banned from the site and the thread locked. But the guy who runs it is a southern gentleman and most likely a Baptist.

Too many of you come accross as immature and adolescent. Do I wonder why the Episcopal Church is such a disaster? Nope. CG
igregory2
Posted: 2005/8/23 12:53  Updated: 2005/8/23 12:53
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/3
From: Florida
Posts: 223
 Re: PEACE AND JUSTICE, BUT FOR WHOM?
""Too many of you come accross as immature and adolescent""

It is EXTENDED adolescent and further steve, freho, kurt do NOT have any children... they have not a clue what it is to be a father....

a grandmother & grandfather to three loving joyous grandchildren, Terrie & gregory
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