LEARNING LESSONS FROM THE DUTCH
News Analysis
By David W. Virtue
The Dutch Roman Catholic Cardinal Adrianis Simonis of Utrecht believes that the "spiritual vacuity" of Dutch society has left the Netherlands open to an Islamic cultural takeover.
In a blistering attack on the state of the spiritual state of the country, the Cardinal said the nation was disarmed in the face of the Islamic danger. The rise of Islam, said the Cardinal is related to "the spectacle of extreme moral decadence and spiritual decline that we offer" to young people. Nowadays political leaders ask whether the Muslims will accept our values," the Dutch cardinal observed. "I ask, 'What values are those? Gay marriage? Euthanasia?'"
Today Dutch society is known for its permissive attitude toward social issues, with laws that allow euthanasia, same-sex marriage, widespread use of recreational drugs, prostitution, and adoption by homosexual couples.
Cardinal Simonis said that the best prospect for recovery would come if the younger generation returned to Christian traditions. "That is my hope, and I do see signs that young people are rediscovering the faith," he told a Dutch newspaper.
There is a major lesson here for the Episcopal Church. Recently the Diocese of Colorado announced the employment of an Imam in the cathedral in Denver, and the Dean of the cathedral in Philadelphia said he would happily worship with followers of Mohammed who wanted to come into his cathedral. There is no conflict in their minds about the fundamental theological differences between the two religions. What is there about the words "another gospel" that the apostle Paul talked about that they don't understand?
And gay marriage? The cardinal sees this as part of the moral decline of his nation, while the Episcopal Church endorses and encourages such acts with same-sex rites to boot!
And what is the destination of this moral slide for the United States? It is where Holland is today. And this past week a well known Dutch film-maker was murdered - a wakeup call to America. It is not America's fundamentalists that are shooting anybody, it is Islamic fundamentalists that are calling the shots, and doing the shooting. However abhorrent some aspects of American Fundamentalism might be, I have never seen, nor could I imagine Jerry Falwell, walking through Lynchburg, Virginia toting a submachine gun. I can imagine the Taliban doing that. And America's Evangelicals are not Fundamentalists despite what Jack Spong says. They are far more tolerant on a wide range of issues; have a deep concern for the environment with many having experienced the trauma of unasked for divorce and much more. They also have this odd belief in repentance and forgiveness.
The cardinal is hopeful that a new generation of Dutch will turn itself around. He might be whistling Dixie bearing in mind that Europe is infinitely more secular than America and the Vatican is not about to ask secular Europeans to sing three verses of 'Just as I am without one plea…' at the local soccer field.
But the U.S. is not far behind Holland in cultural decline. Our culture still heads towards the gutter and old mainline denominations like the Episcopal Church are bending over backwards, in the name of inclusivity, diversity and tolerance to legitimize bizarre sexual behaviors that contribute to the moral decline, happy it would seem, to put themselves out of business.
And in the Episcopal Church's case, it is aided and abetted by a morally defunct House of Bishops.
The last elections proved that point when America's evangelicals, (derisively called the Taliban by some secular commentators), and a goodly portion of Roman Catholics made it clear to spiritually blind Democrats that they would no longer tolerate the moral decline in America and they put their man back in the White House, with most viewing moral values as being of greater importance than unemployment, money and Iraq.
But it was not just a Dutch cardinal that weighed in on the continued secularization of Europe, but a leading contender for the papacy itself one Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger who opined this week in an Italian newspaper that "the sexual act has lost its meaning and purpose. . . to the point that all kinds of sexuality have become the equivalents of each other. The main consequence is the placing of homosexuality and heterosexuality on equal terms," he said.
And this is precisely what the Episcopal Church has done by passing resolutions D039 and C051. Homosexuality is no longer a compulsive addictive behavior; it is now on an equal footing with heterosexuality complete with its own rites, made secure with its very own homoerotic bishop.
And you wonder why the Roman Catholics and Russian Orthodox Church will no longer sit down and talk unity with Frank Griswold. Why should they? ARCIC is dead and should be given a decent burial.
And this is precisely why both Evangelicals and Roman Catholics are being drawn together in common cause over a wide range of moral and social issues.
For sure they are being hard pressed to reach agreement on such difficult theological doctrines as justification by faith and the nature of salvation, though serious efforts have been tried by Anglican theologians like J. I. Packer, but the two groups can make common cause on serious moral issues like abortion and gay marriage.
The problem for the Netherlands, the cardinal continued, is a "lack of identity." The time is long past, he observed, when Christians "would fight and die for their faith." Today Islamic radicals are prepared to fight and die for what they believe.
Now ask yourself, would you die for what Frank Griswold and what some 100 plus revisionist Episcopal bishops believe? Would you honestly go to a cross for pluriformity, inclusivity and diversity? Is this a trinity that you would take a bullet for? If you would you are a fool, but not for Christ's sake.
Would you face a firing squad and die for Spong's Twelve Theses or Griswold's pluriform god that has more in common with Sufi the Rumi than Jesus Christ!
Part of a journalist's job, albeit difficult, is to speak truth to power, and to say with as much clarity as he or she can muster, that a church which endorses the culture will be orphaned in a generation.
The Episcopal Church is slowly orphaning itself. The hope many of us had that the Windsor Report would give teeth for the orthodox to fight back and find a safe place in a now advanced heretical institution has not materialized. Will it? Our hopes must now rest with the Primates.
Orthodox bishops in the Episcopal Church have their backs to the wall. Look at what is happening to Pittsburgh Bishop Bob Duncan. He heads the Network, faces multiple lawsuits from two of his own clergy and faces daily hostility from the heretical PEPboys in his diocese, and is out of favor with the bulk of the HOB and much more.
The Episcopal Church like the rest of America is watching what is happening to a Europe that has lost its Christian moorings. Tragically the ECUSA is aiding and abetting precisely the same decline in the U.S. What sort of wake-up call do Episcopalians need to realize the good ship ECUSA is taking on water, and if its theological bilge pumps are not repaired, will in a matter of time sink.
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| daleadams | Posted: 2004/11/21 1:37 Updated: 2004/11/21 1:37 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/2/1 From: Dixon, Calif. Posts: 975 |
I am copying in here for its applicability to the Dutch what I just posted on "Future of ECUSA" under the thread: "Too Quiet"
And what is most notable about the Netherlands? That it had the most hard-line Calvinists found anywhere, and thus it is to the credit of the Dutch that they rejected this root and branch. On the other hand the Catholics there produced the best liberal theology of that now-distant decade of the 1960's, commonly called The Dutch Catechism, 1966. My copy of the English translation is simply titled(and a literal translation) *A New Catechism", 1969. No doubt it is too intellectual and historico-critical for children, but it is sub-titled, "Catholic Faith for Adults". So what went wrong on the Catholic side? Probably that the Vatican sabotaged the liberal, intellectual Dutch Catholicism that could have been believed and practiced by the Dutch people. The Dutch are Nordics, and no more that the Scandinavians were they in the late 20th Century open to believing in 1910-era Catholicism or Protestantism. If Pope John Paul II were not a throwback to Pope Pius X, I would still be a Roman Catholic and quite convinced that we Roman Catholic Charismatics had something quite wonderful to believe in. Dale Adams |
| Joe of the Mountain | Posted: 2004/11/21 4:12 Updated: 2004/11/21 4:12 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/3 From: Posts: 3472 |
PRIDE GOETH BEFORE DESTRUCTION, AND AN HAUGHTY SPIRIT BEFORE A FALL ... and before honour is humility.
(Proverbs xvi, 18; xviii, 12b) |
| Voyager | Posted: 2004/11/21 6:37 Updated: 2004/11/21 6:37 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/30 From: 90 ± 10 Astronomical Units (AU). Posts: 1594 |
In its heyday the Netherlands was Calvinist through The Dutch Reformed Church, but those days are a long way back. The Netherlands is so secular as to be amoral, so liberal as to be an affront to anyone with religious sensibilities and downright provocative to those with conservative beliefs derived from Arabic Islam................in short the major cities of the Netherlands - where the Muslims are concentrated - is representative for them of evey vice and iniquity the pious ascribe to the godless.
Amsterdam is crime-ridden, drug-ridden, and frankly the repository for so much human detritus that it is hard to understand how anyone, let alone women, could possibly feel safe. The Dutch lesson is that if you neglect your civic space, move to the suburbs and turn a blind eye to the decline of your cities under the guise of "tolerance" and "multiculturalism" you will find you have added an ethnic underclass to your own domestic underclass who see the hostility of the ruling elites to engage in meanungful dialogue and so retreat into the world of religion becomes ever more hardline and present in the lives of those who feel the society has lost its way and must choose a path. |
| alan1803 | Posted: 2004/11/22 12:26 Updated: 2004/11/22 12:26 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/11/16 From: Posts: 38 |
Voyager wrote:
"Amsterdam is crime-ridden, drug-ridden, and frankly the repository for so much human detritus that it is hard to understand how anyone, let alone women, could possibly feel safe." Duhh??? It's a perfectly pleasant city, a popular weekend break destination for Brits. Yeah, they have a fairly laid-back approach to wacky baccy, including special bins at the entrance to the international platforms at Amsterdam Centraal, so that you can dump your smoking materials before getting on the train to less tolerant places.As for amorality, you might find it instructive to compare teenage pregnancy rates in Holland with those in Britain or, especially, those in the USA. |
| Hogan | Posted: 2004/11/22 13:32 Updated: 2004/11/22 13:32 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/2/12 From: southwest Posts: 1189 |
I just got a report that John Calvin has actually turned over in his grave. Another report states that laughter was heard from the grave of John Wesley!
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| Voyager | Posted: 2004/11/22 15:33 Updated: 2004/11/22 15:33 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/30 From: 90 ± 10 Astronomical Units (AU). Posts: 1594 |
I don't need to compare teenage pregnancy rates in Holland with the US and UK........did I say they were superior in all aspects ? I can even list the postcodes and tell you which towns in the Uk are higher on teenage pregnancy; and which states in the Us have highest infant mortality.........so far noone has died yet like Theo Van Gogh however....that is a Dutch problem to date.
My experience of Amsterdam is that nighttime is a bad time to explore alleyways, and that it has attracted some real human detritus.......you find the city acceptable, many Dutch do not.......crime is the issue. Holland may have teenage pregnancy under control, it is law and order that seems to be deficient |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2004/11/22 16:24 Updated: 2004/11/22 16:24 |
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Voyager is right on the money. Having worked with a fellow from the Netherlands for two years, even with frequent discussions concerning right/left, conservative/liberal issues...even he had to admit that Dutch liberalism was eating away at his society and that crime was becoming a real issue.
We also had several discussions during the run-up to and during the war in Iraq. Although he had negative things to say about Bush and America in general, I was surprised to hear him say that his countrymen would soon face a similar problem with Islamic fundalmentalism. I, at first, thought this absurb, until he once again admitted that the large and growing Islamic minority looked at Dutch society as a shining example of European decadence and decay and ripe for the spread of Islam. Oh, and by the way, Dale. Nice play of words on my screen name when you applauded the Dutch rejection of Calvinism. But in light of Dutch decay and the more than simmering hatred generated by Islamic fundamentalism....have the Dutch benefited more from a rejection of Calvanism, liberal Catholisism, or Christianity (for that matter) or the acceptance of Prostitutionism, Liberal Secularism and Free Dopeism? |
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| essodalori | Posted: 2004/11/22 17:11 Updated: 2004/11/22 17:11 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/9/15 From: Posts: 4904 |
I'm with Voyager and RootBranch. Amersterdam is the city that tolerates any kind of moral depravity to which a human can be enticed.
The Dutch don't know what they believe in anymore - except to not believe in anything. In that state, they will perish. Those who believe - in anything! - are always stronger than those who do not. With Christian love, Essodalori |
| alan1803 | Posted: 2004/11/23 9:41 Updated: 2004/11/23 9:41 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/11/16 From: Posts: 38 |
The reason that cases like Van Gogh and Fortuyn make the news is precisely that they are rare. I'm not an expert on relative crime rates, but I should not be surprised if those in the Netherlands compare wel, especially for viloent crime, with most advanced countries.
OK, it isn't wise to go up dark alleys in the red light district in Amsterdam, but it would be equally unwise to do so in analogous areas in most cities. Yes, theologically conservative Muslims aren't happy about "decadent" Holland - a view they appear to share with some theologically conservative American Episcopalians. Incidentally, in the light of comments about Dutch "liberalism", it should perhaps be noted that the Netherlands currently has a right-wing government of a type broadly similar to the British Conservative Party. Sorry, but the notion of a "crime-ridden" Amsterdam just doesn't tally with the experience of many visitors to that city. Alan Harrison |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2004/11/23 14:45 Updated: 2004/11/23 14:45 |
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Perhaps it is a rare occurance, alan1803, but even you can not deny a persistent pattern among Muslims to dissagree theologically using terroristic tactics.
How many Christians have assisinated Dutchmen? How many Jews have decapitated aid workers? How many Buddhists have flown planes into buildings? Plus, there is a persistence of silence among the vast majority of Muslims to speak out against those who some in the west mistakenly say have "hijacked Islam." If the vast majority of Muslims were truly horrified about some radical elements besmirching their "religion of peace" in such a terrible way....then where are the million Muslim marches in the streets of New York City, Paris, London, Madrid and elsewhere? The answer is obvious...they either silently agree with the Islamic-fascist crusade against the West or are too frightened and impotent to stand against them. Either way, it makes them complicit in the spread of Ismlamic fascism. |
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| alan1803 | Posted: 2004/11/23 15:29 Updated: 2004/11/23 15:29 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/11/16 From: Posts: 38 |
Rootbranch enquires:
"How many Christians have assisinated Dutchmen?" A substantial number, I should imagine, throughout Dutch history. Of the two recent political cases, one (Van Gogh) involves a Muslim, while the other (Fortuyn) was the work of a white man whose religion, if any, would have probably been Christianity. He/she further enquires: "How many Jews have decapitated aid workers?" The method is different, but death is equally real in well-documented cases, such as that of Rachel Corrie, of aid workers being killed by persons whose religion, if any, is Judaism. And then: "How many Buddhists have flown planes into buildings?" Maybe a little more complex, since Japanese very often practice two religions, one of which is Buddhism, but I believe that there is ample evidence of self-immmolation by crashing an aircraft into perceived enemies during the Second World War. Then we have the reference to "the Islamic-fascist crusade". Err, do you know what a crusade is? Do you know that some of the most robust campaigners against fascism are Muslims? Come to think of it,do you know any Muslims? I work with Muslim colleagues, I teach Muslim students and I face a Muslim HR manager in my role as president of the local branch of the lecturers' union. Disappointingly, no terrorists among 'em. Alan Harrison |
| Anonymous | Posted: 2004/11/23 18:20 Updated: 2004/11/23 18:20 |
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Nice parry, alan...on the surface, but you still are dodgeing the question.
Of course there have been atrocities committed through history by various people, cultures and religions. However, and you know this, I was and am speaking of present day Islamic terrorism. ( And by the way, to use Rachel Corrie as an example of Jewish terrorism is assinine. She was a stupid little Marxist protester who got in the way of a bulldozer. She did not die because she was of the wrong culture or religion) You say you know and work with Muslims...ok..I'll take that on face value. And no, I do not know any Muslims on an intimate level, only in passing in the work environment. However, let me ask the question again, and perhaps instead of dodgeing, you could answer.... Where are the hoards of Muslim protesters in the streets demanding the terrorists cease and desist and stop hijacking their "religion of peace"? I don't see them on the front pages of the New York Times or the London Times or Le Monde. I don't see them on the nightly news. Better yet, don't answer me, pose the question to your Muslim friends. Ask then why they are so silent, when over in the Middle East, every little perceive injustice causes thousands to fill the streets shooting their AK-47's and issuing fatwah's. If the so called moderates were really outraged or were a potent force to be reckoned with, where are the Muslim versions of Martin Luther King, Ghandi, Mandella, marching in the streets to protest every act of terrorism, especially when that terrorism is committed against fellow Muslims? Why do I not hear protests coming from the speakers in the minerets of the mosques in my city? You would be wise to tell your Muslim friends, that history has awful lessons to teach fanatics. Although I was born and raised in Mississippi and am a lifelong southerner, one of my personal heroes is William Tecumseh Sherman. Because he knew that the fanaticism that drove the South to fight the way they did was (1) they thought God was on their side, even though they believed it right to hold another man in bondage ( and those southerners that did not think it right did little to fight against that belief) and (2) it was the fanatical civilian population and economy that drove the fanatic Southern military. Crush the fanatic civilians and you crush the will to fight by the military. And that was how the Civil War was finally won. And those Japanese buddhist kamakazes you mentioned. They were not strict buddhist but were shintoist, a mixture of buddhist and animism. But the point remains that their and the Japanese's fanaticism was crushed with 2 atomic bombs, after Truman made the correct assesment that it was not worth the lives of 100,000's of American GI's that it would take to conquer the mainland. Funny how fanaticism flies out the window when the fanatic is faced with a force that is willing and has the means to destroy them all, without worrying about the world's oppinion. Your Muslims friends would do well to pay heed to the lessons of history. We are not their yet as a country, but the moderate Muslims could do much better at making sure our country does not reach that point of no return. |
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| Voyager | Posted: 2004/11/24 16:07 Updated: 2004/11/24 16:07 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/30 From: 90 ± 10 Astronomical Units (AU). Posts: 1594 |
Actually Alan I have no problems going around the alleyways of the Red Light District...it is so very safe because there is a police station in the middle and lots of foot-patrols...........it is outside the Red Light District near the Grachten that it is dangerous.......
Theo Van Gogh weighed 135kg - he was shot 6 times - his assailant then iused a knife to saw through his neck to the spine......he stuck another knife in his chest with a 5-page letter threatening to kill others.......this was a ritualistic North African Islamic slaying....... Alan Harrison says this is the kind of thing American Episcopalians would do.......and that after the slaying of Pim Fortuyn Holland has a party like the British Conservatives in power........that may be his view, but it is not reassuring....British Conservatives have not been in power since 1997...... Still, Alan sees no problem and gambols happily around the Muslim areas where Whites arec stoned....his wife/girlfiend wears a full chadoor in these areas and finds Muslim women fully liberated.......... Alan Harrison sees only American Evangelicals as the problem and thinks they are just like Muslim Jihadists......whereas everything is lovely in Holland's multicultural garden otherwise..........well Alan I have 80.000 Muslims not far from me.......would you like some ? |
| Voyager | Posted: 2004/11/24 16:09 Updated: 2004/11/24 16:09 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/30 From: 90 ± 10 Astronomical Units (AU). Posts: 1594 |
uslim, while the other (Fortuyn) was the work of a white man whose religion, if any, would have probably been Christianity.
Untrue and knowingly so. He was a Vegan, Animal Rights nut which means he is a Neo-Pagan Earth Spirits nutcase - it was not his first murder either.......he stated he killed him because of Muslims......Fortuyn had virtually no platform on animal rights stuff and had received no threats from any animal rights nurs only from MUslims |
| Voyager | Posted: 2004/11/24 16:11 Updated: 2004/11/24 16:11 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/30 From: 90 ± 10 Astronomical Units (AU). Posts: 1594 |
one of which is Buddhism, but I believe that there is ample evidence of self-immmolation by crashing an aircraft into perceived enemies during the Second World War.
PERCEIVED ????? They hit wooden-decks of US Navy Warships...if they only "perceived" them as enemies what was Pearl Harbor about ? |
| Voyager | Posted: 2004/11/24 16:15 Updated: 2004/11/24 16:18 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/30 From: 90 ± 10 Astronomical Units (AU). Posts: 1594 |
The Germans have learned lessons from the Dutch.....their rules are changing....Berlin-Neukoelln is a disaster waiting to explode.........
The Netherlands will be most interesting to observe.......law and order is hardly a strong suit there They were surprised to find an Al-Qaeda Cell and also a PKK training camp, seems the Dutch Intelligence Service has been asleep.......... Still, Alan Harrison seems to have his condemnation for "conservative" American Episcopalians suggesting he approves of the Neo-Pagan Revisionists in that Church.......... http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2655656 Film clip for your Muslim Colleagues Alan.......only 11 minutes.......Theo Van Gogh paid for it with his life.... http://www.zachtei.nl/2004/11/06/000443.html |
| Voyager | Posted: 2004/11/24 16:26 Updated: 2004/11/24 16:26 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/30 From: 90 ± 10 Astronomical Units (AU). Posts: 1594 |
woensdag 24 november 2004
Dutch imam goes into hiding Because you're never too early to claim victim status! Maybe I'm being a bit harsh here. Imam van de Ven (read more about him below) probably has a good reason to go into hiding, as the Dutch are furious about his comments he'd like to see MP Geert Wilders dead within two years. Plus, the last thing this country needs right now is some right wing moron killing Van de Ven, thereby creating a radical Islamist martyr. (I personally disapprove of combating barbarism with barbarism anyway, but if there are any hot shots out there who need a good pragmatic reason to keep their aggression in check, the above reason should do.) Van de Ven also explained his position on what he meant when he said he wouldn't mind seeing Mr. Wilders dead. Apparently, he wants Mr. Wilders dead the way many Europeans and Americans wouldn't mind seeing Osama bin Laden six feet under. Yeah, I will never forget the day hijackers trained and financed by Mr. Wilders used four civilian planes as cruise missiles to kill 3,000 citizens from all over the world. First, in the Netherlands 'Liberal' means right wing, not left wing. The word has retained its original meaning of 'having a state with allows its citizens maximum freedoms'. After the Van Gogh murder, the Dutch political landscape has changed, in the same way the American political landscape has after 9-11. Whereas a part of the electorate was already sympathetic to Wilders before 11-2, that part is growing by the day. A demonstration by Moroccan Muslims in the Netherlands against the murder of Van Gogh drew a crowd of only a few hundred people, if that. Gathering from the television footage, my personal estimate would be in the dozens. Up until now, other than Ahmed Aboutaleb, the brave Moroccan deputy mayor of Amsterdam, very few Dutch Muslims has even publicly denounced the murder of Theo van Gogh. A student of the Dalton Scholengemeenschap in The Hague was beat up after giving a presentation about Islam and the murder of Theo van Gogh, by a group of Moroccans who hadn't even heard the presentation. According to his classmates, they were acting on behalf of a girl who had, and who thought the lecture was insulting. Neither the classmates nor the teacher were able to identify anything offensive in the presentation. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/11/18/EDGQT9SO3B1.DTL IF YOU WANT to know where the outrage is when Islamist thugs butcher a civilian, look to the Netherlands. The fact that one Mohammed Bouyeri, the 26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan arrested for the murder, could believe otherwise scares the Dutch. Bouyeri grew up in the Netherlands. He went to Dutch schools. He had worked at a Dutch youth center. Raised in the bosom of a country that prided itself in religious tolerance, Bouyeri turned to the dark side as he joined those who believe they have a right to kill nonbelievers. Danish imam explains why Van Gogh had it coming Well, this clears things up. Danish imam Ahmed Abu Laban, Palestinian by birth, has today explained how Van Gogh infuriated Muslims: 'Theo van Gogh provoked all Muslims by showing a naked woman.' This must be a culture gap - I personally kinda like naked women. Quite a few men seem to, considering the fact there's still quite a few babies being born every day. The imam also really favors freedom of expression, as long as no one uses it to criticize Islam, or to show naked women. Well, at least he sticks to his points. And again, the radical Islamists win Last year, Dutch cinemas showed the hugely successful comedy 'Shouf shouf habibi!', which revolves around Moroccan immigrants and their difficulties integrating in Dutch society. At the time, there was some minor uproar when it turned out that Moroccan moviegoers in several cinemas regularly burst into applause during a scene in which a second-generation Moroccan son hits his sister. An acquaintance of mine was shocked when she saw how Moroccan girls voiced their consent to this kind of violent behavior. These were not girls wearing headscarves either - they were dressed according to the latest revealing Western fashion. Since ignorance was still bliss at the time, these incidents got forgotten pretty quickly. Not it turns out that a sequel may be postponed because director Albert ter Heerdt is afraid of possible repercussions. To quote Mr. Ter Heerdt: 'I don't want a knife in my body.' I guess it would be too easy for me to call him a coward, since (a) I'm not facing his dilemma, and (b) I don't have a family to look after. But it is a damn shame no one else has stepped forward to do the honors. |
| gregory | Posted: 2004/11/25 10:30 Updated: 2004/11/26 12:43 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4436 |
This notice i have posted before and it is so relevant, excuse me for posting again; it is too important not to post....
CDC Warns Doctors About Rare STD Spreading Among Men Who Have Sex With Men in Europe; Disease Could Threaten U.S. [Nov 09, 2004] CDC officials have warned doctors about a rare sexually transmitted disease that has been spreading among men who have unprotected sex with men in the Netherlands and other European countries and could appear among such men in the United States, the New York Times reports (Tuller, New York Times, 11/9). Lymphogranuloma venereum -- LGV -- has been diagnosed in about 90 MSM in the Netherlands, and other cases have been reported in Belgium, France, Sweden and Britain, Reuters/CNN.com reports. The infection is caused by a strain of the bacteria that causes chlamydia and can be cured with antibiotics. LGV is associated with genital ulcers and flu-like symptoms and can cause severe gastrointestinal distress, according to Reuters/CNN.com (Reuters/CNN.com, 10/29). Because most U.S. doctors have never seen a case of LGV, CDC officials are worried that physicians might incorrectly diagnose the symptoms and fail to provide necessary treatment, which could cause the STD to become worse, according to the Times. LGV usually is seen in developing countries -- such as those in Africa, Southeast Asia and Latin America -- and most often is diagnosed among heterosexuals, in whom it causes genital lesions and swelling in the lymph glands in the groin. Men who experience rectal symptoms -- including bleeding of the rectum and colon -- most likely contract LGV through unprotected anal intercourse, according to Dr. Stuart Berman, chief of the epidemiology and surveillance branch in the STD prevention division at CDC. Health professionals also are concerned because the rectal inflammation and ulceration sometimes caused by LGV could increase the risk of transmitting or contracting HIV and other bloodborne diseases (New York Times, 11/9). Netherlands Outbreak Berman described the outbreaks in Europe as an "early warning," saying, "We expect it's a question of time before we see cases appearing here," PlanetOut/Yahoo! News reports. According to Dr. Ken Haller, a board member of the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association, LGV symptoms can appear three to 30 days after transmission but can remain undetected because lesions might occur inside the urethra or the rectum. Although most cases of LGV are sexually transmitted, the virus also can be transmitted through kissing, Haller said (Curtis, PlanetOut/Yahoo! News, 10/29). The first outbreak was recorded in Rotterdam, Netherlands, in April, 2003, according to the Oct. 29 issue of the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. The Netherlands typically has fewer than five cases of the disease annually, but as of September, 92 cases of LGV had been confirmed in the country in the preceding 17 months among MSM, leading to alerts in Europe and the United States (Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 10/29 http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?DR_ID=26632 http://www.hivdent.org/cdc/cdcnCWDA112004.htm Holy Michael Archangel, defend us... |
| alan1803 | Posted: 2004/11/25 10:35 Updated: 2004/11/25 10:35 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/11/16 From: Posts: 38 |
Voyager writes:
"Still, Alan Harrison seems to have his condemnation for "conservative" American Episcopalians suggesting he approves of the Neo-Pagan Revisionists in that Church.........." Hmm, I've only been around here for a few days, but I've been active on various Anglican mailing lists and bulletin boards for several years. I'm starting to get a strange sense of deja vu, since this kind of silliness is the mirror image of the stuff I get from the Griswold school of thought about my awful homophobic bigotry. I suppose I must be the very epitome of the Via Media to get kicked so vigorously from both sides. An earlier post in reply to RootBranch got lost somewhere, but let me try pointing you in the right direction. I currently post on both the Episcopal Voices and Orthodox Episcopal bulletin boards. Specifically on Islamic attitudes towards women, I suggest a web search for "Touria Tiouli", and find her web site, where my message of support for Mme Tiouli is among the first. (They're listed in reverse order.) A search around the Forward in Faith web site should find the motion I proposed at this year's FiF UK assembly, and you may also still find my letter to Bishop Bennison, asking him to establish a blacklist of lay people who had received communion from Fr Moyer and to stick my name on it. I detect no understanding here that Muslims cover at least as wide a range of theology and enthusiasm as Anglicans. I suppose my colleague S is a Muslim Griswold, sitting lightly to Islamic teaching and even having a glass of wine with us in celebration of a departmental achievement. T is, I suppose, a Rowan Williams of Islam, an ordinary bloke of south Asian appearance, sticking to orange juice when we have a drink, and eating halal food. Some of the students are somewhere from David Holloway to Franklin Graham (OK< he's not an Anglican) - Koran-punchers with an enthusiasm for restoring the Caliphate. Now for the serious bit: where I obviously differ from most people on this board is that I believe that the alliance in the USA between theological orthodoxy and right-wing secular politics is a big mistake. Your enemies have spotted it, and they will play on it. Indeed they are already playing on it. Do a Google search for "Good Shepherd Rosemont", find the pieces by Louie Crew and Elizabeth Kaeton. Read them! They have spotted the potential fault line in the orthodox Anglican alliance and they are starting to hammer in the wedges. |
| robertus | Posted: 2004/11/30 0:34 Updated: 2004/11/30 0:34 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/10/19 From: Posts: 4 |
I'm of Swedish descent. Sweden was once a fervently devout and fervently Lutheran nation. That has since changed. The Church of Sweden has openly embraced the spirit of the age. About the only religious groups experiencing growth in Sweden are the Pentecostal or Evangelical sects.
The Catholics in the Netherlands have long been a minority. However, before and shortly after the war, they were a very strong and devout minority. Both Sweden and the Netherlands show just how destructive liberalism is. The Netherlands once sent missionary priests to Catholic missions around the world. Now, they have hardly 50 or 60 men in formation for the entire country. As a Roman Catholic, I greatly admire much of the Dutch spiritual patrimony. Among the great lights of Dutch spirituality are Thomas van Kampen (known as Thomas a Kempis), Ruysbroec, and the Brothers of the Common Life. The spirituality of the Dutch school is very much a spirituality for our time. It draws its primary inspiration from both word and sacrament, the very sources which Vatican II stresses. Pope John Paul II is not a Pius X throwback. He has not annulled one act of Vatican II. Rather, he is passionately committed to the council as it should be understood. Vatican II did not create a new religion, but called for a return to the sources. It laid a great emphasis on scripture and the sacraments. It set forth a sure roadmap for the authentic renewal of the church. Sadly, the renewal has been hijacked in many places and the authenic renewal is yet to be seen. Liberalism has wreaked great havoc. But thankfully, the Church in the Netherlands seems to be showing signs of life. There are converts beginning to come to the Catholic Church. They seek the liturgy celebrated as it ought to be and the authentic teachings of the Church. It isn't a large movement, but it is hopeful. |











Duhh??? It's a perfectly pleasant city, a popular weekend break destination for Brits. Yeah, they have a fairly laid-back approach to wacky baccy, including special bins at the entrance to the international platforms at Amsterdam Centraal, so that you can dump your smoking materials before getting on the train to less tolerant places.





