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Exclusives : UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Posted by David Virtue on 2009/11/2 5:00:00 (5109 reads)

UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Reformed Episcopal Bishop Royal Grote Denies Irregular Transfers

By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
November 3, 2009

The Presiding Bishop of the 30-year-old United Episcopal Church of North America (UECNA) has deposed two of his bishops because they joined the Reformed Episcopal Church (REC).

Archbishop Stephen Reber wrote a letter to his clergy saying that he had deposed Bishop Wes Nolden, who now serves as a bishop of the REC/ACNA in the Missionary Diocese of the Central States, because he conspired to leave the UECNA before his consecration. He also deposed Nolden's Archdeacon, the Rev. David Straw. Another bishop, Sam Seamans also left the UECNA and was received into the REC.

As soon as the vote was taken I called Bishop Reber to inform him of the vote of my parish and I resigned effective immediately, wrote Nolden.

"It was the day after I resigned that I was examined and received into the REC. I did everything by the book, as did my parish."

Both Nolden and Straw are ministers of Trinity Anglican Church in Evansville, Indiana. Both men have been received into the REC/ACNA. Both men deny any irregularity in their move from the UECNA to the REC. REC Bishop Royal U. Grote also denies any irregularity in their move to the REC.

Reber said that given the fact that this event could have (and still might) damage relations with the Anglican Catholic Church (ACC) and the Anglican Province of Christ the King (APCK), he was deposing Nolden.

In a letter to Nolden, Reber wrote, "It has come to light that, previous to your so-called consecration as UECNA Bishop in January of 2009, you indicated your intention to leave the ministry of the UECNA for joinder of another Church, using the office of Bishop of UECNA as part of your intention. It is hereby declared, therefore, that your so-called consecration as Bishop of UECNA is invalid, that you did not ever become a Bishop of the UECNA, and any reference to your becoming a Bishop is untrue. You are respectfully requested to make known this fact and to pronounce such fact to any inquirer.

"As Presiding Bishop of UECNA, in recognition of Canon 63 of the laws of the UECNA and any other applicable law, having learned of your joinder of the Reformed Episcopal Church and consequent abandonment of communion of the UECNA, I hereby declare that you are deposed from the ministry of the UECNA and the announcement of same has been made."

Reber concluded, "Brothers, I hope this may go a small way in healing this breach that occurred. I know that Bishop Robinson attended your (ACC) Synod in Richmond. The text of this letter has been provided to the ACC and APCK Bishops."

However, Bishop Royal U. Grote, Bishop Ordinary in the Diocese of Mid-America, paints a different picture of events regarding their departure and joining of the REC saying the deposition of the two men is invalid. "You can't depose someone after they left your jurisdiction. Both Wes Nolden and Sam Seamans are bishops in good standing in the REC," he told VOL.

Of the timeline Grote commented, "I had no contact with Wes Nolden or Sam Seamans prior to their consecration in January, 2009. I was contacted in March 2009. They were not received into the REC until April of 2009. Letters were sent to Bishop Reber in April asking for transfers. No response was given. Suddenly, in June, the presiding bishop of UECNA decides that he can depose them after they were made bishops because of their intent not to remain in the UECNA.

"Remember you are dealing with an extremely small continuing Church group here with less than a dozen parishes who have little more than 10 people in them. Four of their small parishes and missions chose to leave and join the REC. Their desire was to be a part of something that wasn't run out of someone's home den. I think if you examine the time sequence of events, the so called deposition doesn't add up."

Grote went on to say that David Straw is a Presbyter in good standing. "All were properly examined and received according to the constitution and Canons of the REC."

"I did not conspire to leave the UECNA prior to Bishop Nolden's consecration. There is no proof of this existing anywhere because it simply did not happen," Straw told VOL.

"I have never received notification in writing regarding this at all. I also do not believe that any of the other priests or deacons who left the UECNA for the REC at roughly the same time I did received anything in writing as well. Canon 63 of the Canons of the UECNA clearly states that I was to be notified and given a six month suspension and a chance to respond to these charges. This never happened."

Straw said that initially Archbishop Reber gave Trinity and its clergy his "blessing" in regards to their leaving. "However, after we left Archbishop Reber changed his mind and sent out an e-mail condemning the action. It is pretty much a fact of history that the REC and the UECNA have exchanged clergy in the past and have had previously a positive relationship. "The Continuum is acting like TEC. If you leave for the new province we will depose you. I have never received a letter telling me I was deposed. I was never informed that there were proceedings against me of any type." In a "Dear Little Flock" letter that VOL obtained, Reber berates the Reformed Episcopal Church describing them as "non-Continuing- non Episcopal - non Anglican" who left the "Anglican world in 1870 over what they perceived as a Catholic direction among Anglican - Episcopalians at that time.

"I cannot help but wonder how this most perplexing agenda could inspire a Suffragan bishop, an Archdeacon, and a Priest and Deacon in Holy Orders, under vows to break, abandon, and deny their most sacred obligation??? But then again, among the apostles there was Judas," wrote Reber.

An exasperated Straw wrote back, "Why attack a member of the REC College of Bishops and the House of Bishops in the ACNA? People move back and forth between other denominational bodies all the time and there is not this kind of bitterness. I sincerely do not understand why church bodies carry-on with this sort of thing and take away from time and energy that could be focused on spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ." Straw admitted that in the spring of 2009 there was a movement among the laity and clergy in his parish and in other UECNA parishes regarding the viability of the UECNA and its failure to form a cohesive witness to Jesus Christ along with other Anglican bodies in the. "I cannot tell you the heartbreak I felt as a clergyman when parishioners would run up to me excitedly holding articles clipped out of the newspaper that spoke about the new ACNA that was forming and I would have to tell them..."I am sorry. That's not what we are part of." Then these people would ask what we were part of and I would be left trying to explain the mess that is the Continuing Church movement. It simply broke my heart that I could give these people no hope for a national church home." A total of four parishes have left the UECNA along with the UECNA's National Military Chaplain, Fr. Daniel Sparks. An estimated ten clergyman (including two bishops) have left the UECNA, according to Straw.

"I believe that the Continuing Church movement has failed to create a cohesive national church in over thirty years. When TEC imploded there was not a suitable place for Episcopalians to go because of the division and infighting that has been the hallmark of the Continuum. All of the parishes that left the UECNA voted to leave in overwhelming numbers because they wanted to be part of a growing and vibrant national church. The ACNA has allowed this to happen for those of us who left."

Bishop Nolden wrote VOL to say he had no plans to leave the UECNA prior to his consecration as bishop. "I have no idea how he arrived at that conclusion and I would be very interested to see any hard evidence he has to support such an unfortunate false statement. In fact, after I advised Bishop Reber of our parish's decision to leave the UECNA for the REC he contacted one of the bishops who was consecrated with me, who eventually also left for the REC, and told this bishop that I left with his (Reber's) blessing. This bishop told me Bishop Reber advised him to pray about the situation and do what was best for his parish and himself." Nolden said Reber sent him a letter advising him that he had been deposed, but that was about three months after he had left and had already been received into the REC House of Bishops. "I received the letter at my home while I was attending the ACNA Inaugural Assembly in Ft. Worth. My wife read it to me over the telephone. Since most of our bishops were at the Assembly I spoke with my (REC) Ordinary, Bishop Dan Morse, as well as Bishops Roy Grote, Ray Sutton, and our Presiding Bishop Leonard Riches immediately after being advised of the letter's contents. All of our lead bishops assured me this has no bearing on my position in the REC. Several of my brother bishops in the ACNA College of Bishops who were deposed by PB Jefferts Schori were fascinated that a continuing church appeared to be using the same tactics as TEC toward those who chose to leave for the new province."

Bishop Seamans wrote to VOL and said this, "My parish voted to leave the UECNA for the REC at a parish meeting in April. It was AFTER that point that I traveled to Dallas, Texas to meet with Bishop Grote and Bishop Sutton for a meeting and examination in accordance with the REC canons, said Seamans.

"Since that time I have intentionally refrained from disparaging Bishop Reber or making public any criticisms of his office or the UECNA. I wish them well, and there are still many lay folks and clergy in the continuum that I love and care about.

"After the news of +Nolden's departure and the three parishes broke I was heartbroken, and I spent many hours on the phone with Bishop Reber. He told me that I needed to meet with my vestry, pray about it, and then do what was best for my parish and myself. That is what I did, and for following his advice I was deposed."

Church of the Resurrection

Fr. Gregory Mashburn, rector of the Anglican Church of the Resurrection, Shalimar, Florida, is pastor of one of four parishes that left the UECNA this past spring. Over the past few years many members of the parish have expressed a great deal of frustration over the lack of pastoral care and leadership from Archbishop Reber, Mashburn told VOL.

"The previous rector had served the parish for 24 years. Owing to health issues and the distance he lived from the parish, he was not able to adequately provide pastoral care to the faithful or surrounding community. There were also serious concerns over the increased number of rather odd, terse, disjointed letters and oral statements from Archbishop Reber on issues ranging from the departure of a previous Suffragan Bishop Leo Michael, to how to say the word "saith", or not to bow too far at the name of Jesus or the "Glory be," to our own departure from the UECNA this past Spring.

"Following my call to the parish I began to hear numerous concerns from the majority of the members of the parish about their disappointment of, and frustrations with, Archbishop Reber. It had been two years since he had visited them. They felt neglected and their concerns about the direction of the UECNA and the Continuing Anglican movement were not being addressed.

"Discussions about moving to a viable, growing, and mission oriented jurisdiction that was healthy were already under way long before I arrived," he told VOL.

Mashburn urged the members to remain faithful and to focus on the mission and calling of the parish within the UECNA. But by March 2009, he could no longer deny the concerns of a majority of members of the parish. Following prayer and research, the parish felt led to talk with leaders of the Reformed Episcopal Church, as a founding member of the province of the Anglican Church in North America. "Our members felt that that was the jurisdiction and province the parish was being called to engage a relationship with."

Following a unanimous Vestry vote, the parish moved to the Reformed Episcopal Church. Fr. Mashburn and Deacon Brown (now Fr. Brown) attended a meeting with REC Bishops Grote and Sutton of the Diocese of Mid-America in order to make them aware of the parish's potential move.

"On March 30, I spoke with Archbishop Reber to make him aware of all of the details on this possible move. Reber had been made aware of the possible move earlier in the day by the previous rector. I was accused of orchestrating this potential move with a member of the parish, and was also told by Reber that he would have had more respect for me and the parish if we joined with the Unitarian Universalists, rather than the REC. It was very clear that Reber had nothing good to say about the REC, or any other founding part of the ACNA.

"We were accused of making this move for our own personal agenda. In actuality, the parish made this move out of a clear desire and move by the Holy Spirit to be where God was and is blessing His work and mission to bring the transforming love of Jesus Christ to a lost and hurting world. Before the end of the day all references to our parish was stricken from the UECNA website which was taken as a sign that we had basically been excommunicated. We had not even voted. On April 5, at a special meeting the parish membership voted overwhelmingly to join the REC."

OTHER CONTINUING CHURCH NEWS

There are signs of reshuffling within the Continuing movement following the recent announcement by Rome that they will accept traditionalist Anglicans into their church. It might also indicate that the Continuing Church movement is slowly breaking up. VOL received a note saying that Bishop Rocco Florenza was received into the Anglican Catholic Church (ACC) at their Provincial Synod in Richmond, VA, recently following his resignation from the Anglican Church in America (ACA). The bishops of the ACC voted unanimously to receive Bishop Florenza in his episcopal orders. He has been appointed the Episcopal Visitor for the New England Diocese.

Two years ago Florenza took all but three parishes from the eastern diocese of the Anglican Province of Christ the King (APCK) to the ACA. On this occasion there were no parishes involved. A source told VOL that his move had everything to do with the recent proclamation from Rome to receive traditionalist Anglicans. "He (Florenza) came from Rome and has apparently vowed never to be associated with them ever again."

Another source told VOL that Florenza wants the unity of Anglican-Catholics without the dogmatic accretions of Rome.

END

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Poster Thread
sentinel
Posted: 2009/11/3 20:00  Updated: 2009/11/3 20:00
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/6/11
From:
Posts: 263
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
Wow.... (and that is about all I can say about this)
Sodslaw
Posted: 2009/11/3 20:48  Updated: 2009/11/3 20:48
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/8/3
From: Orthodox Bunker
Posts: 343
 WHO CARES?
Who cares, these people are playing fancy dress, they devalue the word bishop and make it clear that their game is all about power!

Go-Catholic, for Salvations Sake!
AnglicanVa
Posted: 2009/11/3 22:34  Updated: 2009/11/3 22:34
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2006/6/28
From: Locust Grove, Va
Posts: 40
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
I might not be the brightest apple on the tree, but if you are consecrated in January 2009, contact the REC in March 2009, then recieved in April 2009. Also, there is no way a church just descides in under two months to leave a body it has been with for years, especially when the priest is made a Bishop. Becoming a Bishop is well known way in advanced.

There might not be no hard facts, but I say there is really no way these guys didn't know they were leaving. Becoming a Bishop is suppose to be about growing the church, not distroying it. they never even tried to improve thier jurisdiction at all.

These guys are the lowest of the lowest.

I don't blame Bishop Rebar at all, I think he had all the right in the world to do what he did, after getting stabbed in the back.

Good luck to the REC, if these are the kind of guys you stand behind, you got a suprise coming your way.

This is nothing like the TEC deposing Bishops.
dannyiseli
Posted: 2009/11/3 22:59  Updated: 2009/11/3 22:59
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2006/6/18
From: new jersey
Posts: 38
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
Between Jezebel deposing bishops left and right and now this unknown.... If it takes a minimum of the laying on of hands of three bishops to consecrate one, doesn't it make sense that a quorum or college of episcopal consensus should be required for a deposition???? I wonder whether there is any historical canonical precedent for this? Sounds like Roman pontificalism to me. Maybe the presbyterian system should be considered to prevent such rash unilateral decisions. That's the way we do government in the USA.
Andrewes
Posted: 2009/11/3 23:15  Updated: 2009/11/4 18:07
Just popping in
Joined: 2008/9/22
From: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 5
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
It is great to see such wonderful Bishops in the Church!!!!!
xenophore
Posted: 2009/11/4 2:49  Updated: 2009/11/4 2:49
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/25
From: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 183
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
The episcopi vagantes, they are a-wandering.
railbirdbc
Posted: 2009/11/4 3:30  Updated: 2009/11/4 3:30
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/6/6
From:
Posts: 767
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
Andrewes:

I agree with your comments about the dubious theological background of some of these Continuing Anglican clergy and bishops. I find it one of the most troubling aspects of the many spin-off Anglican-style groups. For example, I know of two clergy, one a priest and one a bishop, who claim in their biographical histories to have attended and even graduated from the same theological college I attended, and at about the same time that I was there. But I do not remember ever seeing them as students at my college, nor are their names officially connected with the institution as alumni. Additionally, I know both men quite well. In another instance, there is the case of a Continuing jurisdiction that has founded its own seminary. Then suddenly, shortly after the seminary was opened, all of its high ranking clergy listed graduate theological degrees after their names, as well as Doctorates in Divinity (honorary). When I knew some of them they were just plain old Bachelors of Arts, and they couldn't have possibly fulfilled the years necessary to get their Master's degrees in theology completed. Obviously they awarded themselves degrees immediately after establishing their seminary. When these people pull these cheap stunts they cheapen the whole academic process for the rest of us. The majority of us had to work long and hard to achieve our lowly diplomas and degrees.

As to the question of seminary trained clergy, I am not snobbish about this point. Many great ministers of God in the past did not possess degrees of higher learning. Men like Matthew Henry (of Matthew Henry's Commentary fame), Richard Baxter (of The Reformed Pastor fame), and many others, were very great ministers of God regardless of their lack of theological credentials. My first theological teacher was my uncle, a man who was pastor of a small non-conformist chapel; he never enjoyed the benefits of a seminary or college degree, but he was an ardent Bible student, and taught himself Hebrew and Greek, and mastered the very best commentaries available to him.

But the bottom line for all of us is Caveat Emptor! (let the buyer beware) when it comes to which Anglican groups are the real deal and which are not. It is dangerous for us to entrust our souls to men ill equipped to teach and lead.
Yo-Am
Posted: 2009/11/4 3:58  Updated: 2009/11/4 3:58
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2006/8/20
From:
Posts: 24
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
I find the most peculiar thing the claim that the consecration was invalid and never happened. That seems an incredible assertion, and frankly, reflects very badly on UECNA. Given the hysterical reaction of Bishop Reber I'm sure these fine bishops are quite happy to be removed from that mess...

Schori: "You left? Fine, I depose you and you are no longer a bishop"

Reber: "You left? Hah, you were never even a bishop in the first place!"
Kelpie
Posted: 2009/11/4 6:23  Updated: 2009/11/4 6:23
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/7/5
From: Scotland
Posts: 259
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
All very edifying, ain't it???

Such capers bring ridicule and shame upon the traditionalist cause.
AFS1970
Posted: 2009/11/4 10:51  Updated: 2009/11/4 10:51
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2008/12/30
From: Stamford, CT
Posts: 94
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
I fail to see how we of the continuum can claim that orders are valid within churches that have broken away from other bodies, only to say that breaking away again invalidates those very same orders.

I do agree however that the time line in this case is, at best, questionable. Churches and clergy have moved between continuing bodies freely throughout American Anglican history. This is nothing new.

I wonder however about any church or clergy who, being part of a group that lest ECUSA over a specific issue, can now join ACNA when those very same issues have not been resolved. Yes, I am speaking of the elephant in the room that is WO. UECNA, has as it's roots the Affirmation of St. Louis, REC is of course much older. The ACNA, however, chooses not to even address the issues that brought about the Affirmation. I for one think that if WO was addressed and done so in the right way, much of the continuum would hapily join a larger body.

Of course all this Bishop building in stead of Church building would have to stop. Perhaps some positions could be left to attrition, otherwise we may end up with every little chapel having it's own Bishop.
Yo-Am
Posted: 2009/11/4 11:12  Updated: 2009/11/4 11:12
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2006/8/20
From:
Posts: 24
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
I don't think it is fair to say that ACNA has not addressed or resolved the issue of WO. They have made it very clear that 1) those dioceses that want WO can have it 2) those dioceses that don't want WO can reject it 3) there will be no female bishops. Those who strongly object to WO have widely denounced and ridiculed this approach, accusing it of being incoherent at best. But it seems to working for ACNA right now.
gregory
Posted: 2009/11/4 12:13  Updated: 2009/11/4 12:13
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/8/4
From: Nflorida
Posts: 4436
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
Yo-Am,

Sounds familiar, as in, just substitute the issue of WO for the issue of HO...
1) those dioceses that want HO can have it
2) those dioceses that don't want it can reject it
3) there will be no HO bishops.

Of course, the two have followed the same path...
and hind sight is 20/20.

Actually the two are the same, considering that the first WOs were lesbians. That led to women bishops and gay bishops...



gregory
Yo-Am
Posted: 2009/11/4 12:37  Updated: 2009/11/4 12:37
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2006/8/20
From:
Posts: 24
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
I said it is working right now. It will cease to work when 1) there is an attempt to ban WO even for those dioceses that want it 2) there is an attempt to force WO on those dioceses that don't want it 3) there is an attempt to introduce female bishops. Otherwise this arrangement could last a long time...
MMayes
Posted: 2009/11/4 13:19  Updated: 2009/11/4 13:24
Just popping in
Joined: 2009/11/4
From:
Posts: 1
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
Actually, I am the priest and ChristChurch Anglican in O'Fallon, MO. the only AMiA church in O'Fallon and the one reported by Andrewes to have been contacted by Nolden. The fact is, I have nor has ChristChurch Anglican ever been in contact with Nolden. Further I don't know Nolden and have no idea what Andrewes is talking about. Simply put, Nolden never contacted this church plant about being received into AMiA. Andrew, whoever you are...you need to get your facts straight?
Andrewes
Posted: 2009/11/4 13:31  Updated: 2009/11/4 13:31
Just popping in
Joined: 2008/9/22
From: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 5
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
Fr. Mayes,

You are correct...you are not the priest in question from AMiA, and there was more than one. O'Fallon is where Nolden lives. Sorry for the confusion. Archbishop Reber has all the details I reported and more. Someone needs to ask him! Do not shoot the messenger!
Andrewes
Posted: 2009/11/4 14:10  Updated: 2009/11/4 18:11
Just popping in
Joined: 2008/9/22
From: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 5
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
I have no dog in this hunt anymore. I left the UECNA to join Orthodoxy when all this happened, and I could not be happier. In all my years in the Continuum (and only briefly the UECNA), these situations still continue to amaze me. This is for the UECNA and the REC to work out.
gregory
Posted: 2009/11/5 11:01  Updated: 2009/11/5 11:03
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/8/4
From: Nflorida
Posts: 4436
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
"There are many who sincerely believe that it is right for the Church to ordain women as presbyters, and wrong for it to endorse homosexual practice. Although some have argued this distinction forcefully I am convinced that the acceptance of one almost inevitably leads to the acceptance of the other. Some will find this conclusion offensive but I find it rather obvious. The same argument?"

Click this link and read the whole article on VirtueOnline; As Night Follows Day

NO! to WO whether Deacon, Priest or Bishop.

NO! to Homo ordination whether Deacon, Priest or Bishop Or Sunday School Teacher

humbly, gregory
Hatherly
Posted: 2009/11/5 23:15  Updated: 2009/11/5 23:15
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2005/11/21
From: Australia
Posts: 80
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
I must say I have been a priest for 49 years and I have never seen a bishop in Convocation (Chimere and Rochet) Robes AND a Mitre?
A Mitre belongs with a Cope, doesn't it??
He just looked strange!
Where are the Liturgiologists?
railbirdbc
Posted: 2009/11/6 10:35  Updated: 2009/11/6 10:35
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/6/6
From:
Posts: 767
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
Hatherly:

Well spotted! But then, in the revisionist Diocese of New Westminster (where Michael Ingham is king), its clergy perform funerals in an alb with a preaching scarf on instead of a black stole. That's one of the nice things about the "now" churches; you can do anything you like, any time you like. Perhaps the presiding bishop of UECNA is a Catho-Prot.
FrWells
Posted: 2009/11/7 13:20  Updated: 2009/11/7 13:23
Quite a regular
Joined: 2009/9/20
From:
Posts: 47
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
Perhaps this looks odd in the Antipodes, but it is far from unknown in the USA. I believe this was Bishop Seabury's vesture.

The mitre is exclusively a bishop's thing, but not so the cope. Laymen serving as M.C. have been known to wear a cope. The mitre is also worn with chasuble.

But wearing a tippet over an alb is beyond the pale. If a black stole is unavailable, violet or even white may be substituted. But a tippet is not a substitute for a stole.
Hatherly
Posted: 2009/11/7 19:46  Updated: 2009/11/7 19:46
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2005/11/21
From: Australia
Posts: 80
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Former Bishops Who Mov...
Odd indeed, yes I have only seen Bps in Cope/Mitre,Chasubile/Mitre, Convocation.
Being brought up under+John Charles Vockler at St John's Morpeth in the 50's, I would imagine he would be mortified to see this mixture.. I've seen him preside in Dalmatic, Tunicle, and Chasuble Mitre and White Gloves.. the whole caboodle.
Br Laurence, you did know him didn't you?
Sydney ordain men in Surplice, scarf (note some don't wear cassock? We Anglicans are a mixed bag.
LocoOwl
Posted: 2009/11/9 15:57  Updated: 2009/11/9 15:57
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2004/1/13
From: South Carolina
Posts: 100
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
This is one very muddled article. Mr. Virtue's contempt for the Continuing Churches is also showing, in my opinion. There are several things that are not clear. For one, the time line between when Bishop Nolden was consecrated to the time that he left to join the REC. I share the skepticism of a previous commenter about that happenstance.

What I do not understand is why a properly catechized congregation within the UECNA would want to join up with the ACNA with its usage of the 1979 Episcopal Book of Abominations, the ordination of women, etc., etc.. Talk about a mishmash!

There is a lot that is left unreported and undocumented in this article. It would be good if Mr. Virtue would be generous enough to let Archbishop Reber tell his side of the story instead of reporting some malcontent's version as "fact."
RevRL
Posted: 2009/11/9 17:08  Updated: 2009/11/9 17:08
Quite a regular
Joined: 2007/8/26
From:
Posts: 49
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Great Scott! In the words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"
AFS1970
Posted: 2009/11/9 18:23  Updated: 2009/11/9 18:23
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2008/12/30
From: Stamford, CT
Posts: 94
 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Although this has nothing to do with Anglicanism I would like to point out that Rodney King never asked that anyone get along. That quote was from the victim of a brutal beating Reginald Denny, who's only crime was driving a truck for a living.
shadowmane
Posted: 2009/11/11 17:23  Updated: 2009/11/11 17:23
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
The article was not very well written. It was not well researched out, and was totally biased against the UECNA. It quotes two different letters, one to Wes Nolden, the other to the email list for the UECNA clergy. It is exteremely one sided, giving no chance for Archbishop Reber (or his designee) any chance to speak for the UECNA. It quotes people while not putting who was quoted, or how the quote was obtained. Its bad journalism all around.
Helena
Posted: 2009/11/13 1:01  Updated: 2009/11/13 1:02
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Maybe now we have some clarity as to which jusrisdiction (UECNA/APCK/ACC) will defend the fatherly role of the priest. I am wary of joining any group that professes they do not have WO (REC) yet aligns in potential unity with those that do. Women's ministries are appropriate and necessary, however, but do not need to be conducted by a priest. Greater use should be made of deaconesses and trained female lay leaders.

May the Lord strengthen and protect this little core (UECNA/APCK/ACC) of the faithful so that some very important aspects of scriptural tradition may survive.
AFS1970
Posted: 2009/11/14 4:24  Updated: 2009/11/14 4:24
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
I agree that it is strange for a group that professes one thing to align with a group that does the exact opposite, but I think that will happen allot more as the ACNA begins to grow. Many of the smaller groups in the continuum have long sought out a larger body, especially one that seems to hold the promise of recognition by Canterbury. ACNA seems to fit that bill, and I think that we will see allot of groups willing to compromise in order to fit in.
RMBruton
Posted: 2009/11/15 11:10  Updated: 2009/11/15 11:10
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
"Their desire was to be a part of something that wasn't run out of someone's home den." Ouch!!! This happened months ago, when did Bp Reber get around to doing this? I understand that he has some health issues, but Bp Grote raises a valid point, this is an extremely small jurisdiction who have been fumbling for a place in the Continuum for several years. These are by no means the first "bishops" to leave the UECNA. Mind you, the addition of these two further dilutes the "evangelicalism" of the REC. I am sure that Bp Cummings would be very proud. Reber has since, I believe, made another bishop, so let's see how long he stays. I see that Bp Florenza has also joined the Jurisdiction-Of-The-Month Club.
shadowmane
Posted: 2009/11/16 2:23  Updated: 2009/11/16 2:24
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
"Reber has since, I believe, made another bishop, so let's see how long he stays."

Um... no. Bishop Robinson, the Bishop in question, was consecrated at the same time the other two were consecrated. He stayed, and will probably be the next presiding Bishop. That could have been either of the other two, but they left. That was the whole purpose behind consecrating them. First, to give the UECNA candidates to choose from for their next presiding Bishop. Second, so that the Bishops of the UECNA and those of the ACC and the APCK could begin working together towards unifying.

It was all in the works, and those two leaving put a kink in it all.
AFS1970
Posted: 2009/11/16 17:57  Updated: 2009/11/16 17:57
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
The idea of a group needing Bishops in order to look into unification with another group is just more of what I call bishop building instead of church building. There is no reason that talks could not be held regardless of the title of the speakers.

I also do not see how someone leaving a group for another group at all derails talks of unification with two different groups. Unless the individuals were the central movers of the unification project, in which case the idea would probably have not gone that far past them in the first place.

I also question the idea of consecrating three Bishops so that they can be candidates for the PB spot. This begs the question: is there really a need for those Bishops? If unification is truly the goal between the three bodies, at some point there will have to be one boss, presumably selected from one of the three current leaders. So is making someone a Bishop so that they can become the PB simply a way of ensuring they have a horse in that race? That doesn't sound very unified to me.
shadowmane
Posted: 2009/11/16 22:53  Updated: 2009/11/16 22:53
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
The idea was to cover the United States with 3 Bishops. Further, it was to allow these guys to work with the Bishops of the ACC and APCK more closely, filling in when the distance is too great to travel. You seem to think that one man can travel the whole United States on the salary of a retired Fire Fighter. Or maybe your idea is that the traditionalists just go away.
FrMashburn
Posted: 2009/11/17 2:02  Updated: 2009/11/17 2:02
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Fr. Steve (Shadowmane):

The last sentence in your post above, sadly, is rather telling of your opinion of those of us who left the UECNA. It is too bad that such a decision brings on the same kind of vitriol as those who leave TEC receive. The time wasted in responding to threads herein could be spent in actually growing the Kingdom of God within the UECNA.

Fr. Greg
shadowmane
Posted: 2009/11/17 13:18  Updated: 2009/11/17 13:20
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Fr. Greg,

I wasn't speaking about those who left the UECNA. I was speaking, specifically, to AFS1970's post just above mine. He questioned why the UECNA needed more Bishops. I answered it. And my last sentence was in reply to his attitude.
FrMashburn
Posted: 2009/11/17 13:56  Updated: 2009/11/17 13:56
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Fr. Steve:

Then I apologise for the misunderstanding. Your last sentence seemed to indicate that those of us who left the UECNA are not traditionalists also.

Fr. Greg
RMBruton
Posted: 2009/11/17 16:08  Updated: 2009/11/17 16:08
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Why don't UECNA, ACC and APCK just merge?
fronw
Posted: 2009/11/17 17:23  Updated: 2009/11/17 17:23
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Fr Mashburn brings up an interesting question in that " Are those who left and become members of the REC and the ACNA traditionalists ?
Many have referred to the ACNA as TEC lite and I for one can understand that perception.
Some with and supporting WO, 1979 PB usuage, 1928 pb,no WO, Evangelical, Anglo catholic.compromising long held beliefs, the list Im sure can go on.
I dont question the right of those who left to leave
Just the way it was done..You see I dont believe they all had some sudden ephiphany
So sad to see
shadowmane
Posted: 2009/11/18 0:29  Updated: 2009/11/18 0:29
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
"Why don't UECNA, ACC and APCK just merge?"

Its in the works.
AFS1970
Posted: 2009/11/18 5:28  Updated: 2009/11/18 5:28
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
In no way do I think that traditionalists should go away, and I can't see where from my replies in this thread or any other I have given that impression. In fact I think the traditionalists should stop casting their collective lot with the non-traditionalists simply because of a perceived safety in numbers.

The ability of one Bishop to cover a large area, including the whole United States depends greatly on the number of parishes under his jurisdiction and the resources avalible. I grew up in an APCK (Back then it was ADCK) parish when there was only a single Bishop.

This set up is actually one reason that I have been critical of the ACNA plan to allow groupings by affinity in addition to geography. By doing this they will compound the very same problem you speak of not fix it.

I did not mean to be critical of UECNA's right to have multiple Bishops, simply I do remain critical of the need for a Bishop in order to unify as was presented in this thread. I am also more than a little critical of the sheer number of Bishops in the continuum as a whole.
shadowmane
Posted: 2009/11/18 16:53  Updated: 2009/11/18 16:53
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Yeah, there are quite a few. The idea was for these Bishops and the existing ones to work out of the same areas. As one Bishop retires, the other takes on his responsibilities, making the merging of the three jurisdictions more fluid. Once its back down to one Bishop per Diocese, then according to the idea I have heard, is that at that point, the merger happens.
AFS1970
Posted: 2009/11/19 14:40  Updated: 2009/11/19 14:40
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Not that my opinion matters much, but I would figure out the diocesan borders first, then figure out which Bishops would work where, and worry about attrition as it happens. Of course that means that current openings might have to be the first of those "attritions".

The size of the organizational structure needed for all these separate jurisdictions is a bit larger than would be needed by a single jurisdiction. The ACNA's non geographical allowances go against the very nature of consolidation and streamlining. Still it seems that much of the news we read is the election of a new Bishop(s) for some group.

I do hope that this is for a better reason than making sure that a group has a horse in the race for control. Sometimes I wonder however.
shadowmane
Posted: 2009/11/21 21:04  Updated: 2009/11/21 21:04
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Well, the UECNA's Archbishop is due to retire some time next year. But the UECNA now has 3 Missionary Dioceses that will correspond roughly with their ACC counterparts. Before the Archbishop retires, there will be a Bishop over each of the Missionary Dioceses, but the Archbishop is included in that count.
RMBruton
Posted: 2009/12/9 21:29  Updated: 2009/12/9 21:29
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Surprised that the NY Times didn't carry this.
shadowmane
Posted: 2009/12/12 22:31  Updated: 2009/12/12 22:31
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 Re: UECNA Presiding Bishop Deposes Bishops Who Moved to REC
Why would they?
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