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Exclusives : THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is the Question
Posted by David Virtue on 2009/10/29 12:00:00 (4770 reads)

THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is the Question

News Analysis

By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
10/29/2009

Increasingly it is becoming clear that The Episcopal Church is easily winning all the legal battles, some 60 or more, to retain properties they neither built nor paid for, but, because of the Dennis Canon, believe they have the right to own.

For the most part it has been a slam dunk.

A parish announces it is leaving. They retain legal counsel to keep the property. The bishop says, no you can't. Lawsuits are filed by one side or the other and the legal struggle begins. Millions of dollars later, after going through several court levels, the judge usually finds in favor of the diocese and the national church. The parishioners and priest, always the majority, leave and start over down the road. To date, one whole diocese - Pittsburgh - has lost in the struggle to keep its properties. They will appeal.

The liberal/revisionist bishop makes all the usual noises about how nice it would be if everybody would come back home and carry on Mrs. Jefferts Schori's mission to save the world for God by endorsing Millennium Development Goals even though most of the geriatric parishioners will be in advanced care facilities being treated for Dementia or Alzheimer's Disease within a decade.

With the break up come hurt feelings and broken relationships. In time things return to a sort of normalcy and life goes on. Relationships are rarely restored because people discover that having two very different gospels does not make for good bedfellows, despite the fact that they all say the same creed together on Sunday morning. Most of those who want to retain the property for the diocese do so not out of evangelistic zeal, but because the graveyard beckons and they want to be buried in a Columbarium they bought and paid for. Discipleship has nothing to do with it.

The Episcopal Church has been universally successful in it its ability to litigate and win. The draconian figure of David Booth Beers hangs like a Damoclean Sword over those who would flee with their properties. When the sword descends, the pain is swift and decisive. To date the Episcopal Church has gleefully wrung its hands as it has won back parish after parish, even though the legal cost has run into the millions of dollars, both locally and nationally.

A case in point is the Diocese of Colorado. Bishop Rob O'Neill fesses up that he spent $2.9 million on legal fees to take back the $17 million dollar parish of Grace and St. Stephens, denuding the diocese's trust fund, reducing it to a mere $750,000. The parish spent a cool $700,000 and lost the case. The diocese is close to bankrupt.

O'Neill's lawyers moaned to the local newspaper that the colossal legal fees could have been avoided had the Anglican parish heeded legal advice early on. The Rev. Don Armstrong, rector of Grace & St. Stephens, was told then that the Anglican parish would not prevail in the property case, said a diocesan lawyer, because similar cases brought before the Colorado Supreme Court ruled that a parish loses its property when it leaves a denomination.

Even though the "law was crystal clear," Armstrong and his vestry chose to retain other attorneys and fight for the Grace property, said the lawyers.

The potentially erroneous assumption here, repeated by Lesbos Integrity leader Susan Russell, is that the leaders of breakaway congregations want to save money. It is possible, they argue, that what people like Bishop Martyn Minns and others are trying to do is to inflict as much damage on the Episcopal Church as possible, and count on their deep-pocketed donors to make that possible.

Even if there is some truth to this, why should they give up without a fight? This is America. People don't roll over because the likes of bishops Jon Bruno, Charles Bennison and Jefferts Schori say so. It took seven years for All Saints, Pawleys Island, to finally win in the Diocese of South Carolina. Ask them if it was worth it. Furthermore, there is every possibility that the Anglican District of Virginia (ADV) will win their properties and keep them because they were built before the invention of The Episcopal Church. "Hell no, we won't go" has a long tradition in this country.

Standing by and letting a handful of revisionists walk all over godly priests and their parishes is not the American way. While Scripture places no importance on property whatsoever, it should be remembered that those churches were built stone upon stone, stained glass window on stained glass window by godly men and women who, if they knew what was going on would roll over in their graves to learn that a divorced father of two had shacked up with a man and was selling his sodomite "gospel" to a deconstructed church.

Despite the losses, some orthodox bishops have shown an amazing graciousness when equally orthodox parishes have decided to flee. Both the bishop of Central Florida, John W. Howe, and Dallas Bishop James Stanton have let parishes go (with fair market value) without a lawyer intervening, demonstrating that it is possible to be obedient to Scripture which abhors such actions. (Prov. 25: 8 and 1 Corinthians 6:1-7. But is the Bible explicitly against legal action? When is legal action appropriate for a Christian? To be clear, the Bible does not say a Christian can never go to court. In fact, Paul appealed more than once to the legal system, exercising his right to defend himself under Roman law (Acts 16:37–40; 18:12–17; 22:15–29; 25:10–22). In Romans 13, Paul taught that God had established legal authorities for the purpose of upholding justice, punishing wrongdoers, and protecting the innocent. Consequently, legal action may be appropriate in certain criminal matters, cases of injury and damage covered by insurance, as well as trustee issues and other specified instances.

There might be more than a smidgen of truth that the conservatives are taking financial revenge, but asking Armstrong and his congregation to walk away from a $17 million building just to satisfy an ultra liberal bishop without some sort of a fight would be poor stewardship. Spending $700,000 to retain $17 million seems like small change. That the diocese spent nearly $3 million virtually bankrupting themselves is their problem, not Armstrong's. They, too, had the option of settling.

Armstrong was allegedly told by diocesan attorney's (something he himself flatly denies) that the Anglican parish would not prevail in the property case, because similar cases brought before the Colorado Supreme Court have ruled that a parish loses its property when it leaves a denomination. Absent accession language in their articles of incorporation, 94% of the orthodox parish voted to engage and fund the legal fight as stewards of a building dedicated to holy purposes.

Armstrong, in a note to VOL, said that these legal fees could have been avoided. "O'Neill was given many opportunities to work this all out in a Christian manner, but insisted on a battle using high end attorneys, with himself spending four times as much as we did...and literally bankrupting the diocese...I can't imagine his use of trust funds meant for ministry isn't a legal problem itself." Armstrong may be right.

This still begs the question, why could not O'Neill, a revisionist who has brokered gay and lesbian priests into his diocese, show the same magnanimity as Bishops Howe and Stanton in letting the property go for fair market value?

Is there some deep-seated, dare one say pathological hatred, flowing out of O'Neill that can't bear the thought of having a faithful godly, gospel-preaching pastor among his flock of pansexuals and liberals and that his only recourse is to stamp out the remaining few orthodox priests?

Charles Bennison succeeded in snuffing out the "seven sisters" Anglo-Catholic parishes in the Diocese of Pennsylvania. Bishop John Howard of the Diocese of Florida wiped 38 priests off the roles, keeping all their properties. Now he is being forced to sell some of the parishes off because no one attends them anymore.

No mercy, it seems, is written on the foreheads of revisionist bishops.

At the end of the day, The Episcopal Church may well prevail with the properties, but they will never win the hearts of those who have left. They have gone for good despite Jefferts Schori's plea that "we'll keep the doors open." She might just as well close them. They will never return.

The Episcopal Church is on a trajectory downwards, while the new vibrant ACNA province adds new parishes weekly through its numerous Anglican jurisdictions.

Whether the Episcopal High Command likes it or not, the old order is dying and a new order is being born and nothing they can do will stop it.

END

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Cennydd
Posted: 2009/10/30 4:25  Updated: 2009/10/30 4:29
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6863
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
A good article.

Now let me offer a hypothetical case....a question about what TEC could do or might do with a property which they have stolen from faithful Anglicans:

Let's suppose that the property is in need of repair (maybe it has termites or dry rot), or maybe it needs a new heating and air conditioning system or new plumbing. Perhaps it needs new wiring and re-painting or even a new roof.

Suppose, too, that the property value has taken a nosedive while the economy is in the tank, and TEC decides they want to sell. Could they get 50 cents on the dollar? Probably, but it'll be many months before they get it, if home sales are any indicator.

So the local bishop could be saddled with a church building which he most likely won't be able to fill on Sundays, and he won't get the money needed to pay for the upkeep and repairs, and maybe the utilities use will have to be curtailed. Maybe in order to make ends meet, he'll have to see to it that the property is rented to a non-Episcopal (not Anglican, of course) congregation or two.

Or maybe, he'll sell the property to someone who'll tear it down and build a parking lot on it.

Either way, TEC and the bishop's diocese will have thrown the money down a rathole, and another Episcopal parish will have closed its doors.

All of this happening while the parish whose property was stolen from them will have embarked on Plan B and started over in a temporary home and with a building fund while TEC loses in the end.

Cennydd
hunter
Posted: 2009/10/30 4:40  Updated: 2009/10/30 14:45
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2007/4/29
From:
Posts: 124
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
Thank you so very much, David, for an extraordinarily thoughtful editorial. It means a great deal to all of us who are in the trenches.

I sincerely believe that eventually there will be more and more cases litigated and won on the proper grounds in states where judges actually try facts and apply law rather than blindly accept the specious declarations of TEC and their sycophants, and then create law.

Additionally, I suspect in almost all instances, the members of the parish, the principals/the worldly owners of the real and personal property, are not fighting merely for bricks and mortar. Instead, they are fighting for Him who is honored therein. It is the Lord's house they are defending, given as a gift from Him to His people to cherish and use, to take care of on His behalf.

These loyal parishioners and clergy are trying with all their might to be responcible stewards; to be good and faithful servants; to act in, promote, protect, and defend that which He has entrusted to them. They are being loyal fiduciaries.

And, even more importantly, they are not only protecting the Lord's house, they are also protecting that which has been faithfully taught therein.

The Episcopal Church has defiled and stolen; the Episcopal Church has acted with abject disloyalty and self-preference not only against Our Heavenly Father but also against the parishioners TEC is required to serve; the Episcopal Church has breached every duty due and owing to their principals; the Episcopal Church has attempted to tear the heart out of Christianity as it has been taught, preserved, and died for through the centuries; the Episcopal Church has methodically and cunningly subverted the very Word of God.

Although Evil may seem to prevail for far too long, eventually Our Lord will have His Way.

Until then, it is our job to skillfully fight the good fight on His behalf.

To steal from God, to calculatedly and callously abuse His people as the Episcopal Church has done, is self-damning business, indeed.
ztrzf
Posted: 2009/10/30 5:39  Updated: 2009/12/21 14:32
Just popping in
Joined: 2005/9/21
From:
Posts: 10
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
curiouser and curiouser
Kelpie
Posted: 2009/10/30 8:45  Updated: 2009/10/30 8:45
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/7/5
From: Scotland
Posts: 259
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
"if they were alive today would roll over in their graves"

Must have been tired when this howler slipped by you, David!
CityTroope
Posted: 2009/10/30 10:23  Updated: 2009/10/30 10:23
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/12/2
From: Rosemont, PA
Posts: 159
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
How about another hypothetical case. At the next general convention the "Schori" cannon is proposed from the floor and passed by a voice vote. (The same procedure used to pass the Dennis Cannon.)

The Schori cannon states that all property which is owned by any member of the TEc (The Episcopal Cult) belongs to the TEc. At first it may sound preposterous, but it is exactly the intellectual basis of the Dennis Cannon, so why not?

So, if you have enough assets to make it worthwhile, then when you die, or attempt to leave, the Episcopal legal dogs will be there to claim everything you have for the cult. If you attempt to fight for what is yours, then the civil courts will rule in favor of the cult, because it is hierarchical and you had chosen to become a member and therefore abide by all its rules.

There is a scriptural basis for it. (Just read Acts.) There is a basis for it in church law. (The Dennis Cannon.) There is a basis for it civil law. (The right of eminent domain for private resale.) You only think you own something.

TEc maybe be one of the largest theological scams in history. With the Schori Cannon, TEc most certainly can become one the largest financial scams in history. Well worth considering. After all those who stay in the cult are too stupid to see it coming.......
railbirdbc
Posted: 2009/10/30 11:42  Updated: 2009/10/30 11:42
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/6/6
From:
Posts: 767
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
Kelpie:

No, no. It's a Freudian slip. I think David was thinking of those remaining in TEC and getting a head start on their dementia. If you remain in TEC you are already dead in your "trespasses and sins." You're just not buried yet. It's kind of like the walking dead that you see in those old horror movies (you know the ones,THE INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS). Well, that's my explanation and I'm sticking to it.
mathman
Posted: 2009/10/30 12:12  Updated: 2009/10/30 12:13
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/5/26
From: Rockville, MD
Posts: 1064
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
1. Details are scant or unavailable concerning weekly attendance and contributions for parishes which have walked away, leaving a remnant and Priest-in-Charge behind. Who will pay the bills for these properties? I have been in too many parishes not to be aware of the constant need for maintenance.
2. Details are scant or unavailable for Diocesan treasuries at the end of these lawsuits. How will the Dioceses survive? Will more Cathedrals go on the auction block?
3. God is not mocked. Whatever a man (or Presiding Bishop) sows, that will he/she also reap. Take up the sword, die by the sword. Take up the law, go the way of Bleak House and collapse under the law.
4. Even as I write, attorneys representing heirs of those having made bequests to Colleges and Universities, and watched the specific terms of those bequests ignored, are suing for return of the deeded funds. If these tort cases apply in the instance of non-profit schools, will similar tort cases not also apply to non-profit churches?
Be patient and constantly in prayer, my brothers and sisters. It is not over yet!
DPJ071
Posted: 2009/10/30 12:15  Updated: 2009/10/30 12:15
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2009/7/21
From:
Posts: 105
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
Very well said, Cennydd. The last time I looked, there waasn't a huge market for "used church buildings". Shori would rather see an empty parish be sold or rented to the Wiccan's than to Anglicans. Hey, perhaps she'd feel more comfortable with the Wiccans?? Hmmmm...
DPJ071
Posted: 2009/10/30 12:18  Updated: 2009/10/30 12:18
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2009/7/21
From:
Posts: 105
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
ztrzf - while I'm sure many would agree with your thoughts, I cannot see, despite any financial issues facing TEC, that they would sell property to ACNA - "the enemy". I really believe that for TEC this is soley about getting even/punishment first and property second.
anilwang
Posted: 2009/10/30 12:22  Updated: 2009/10/30 12:22
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2009/10/11
From:
Posts: 71
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
hunter,
I agree that the parishes have stronger legal ground, but the key problem is, the TEC has a huge reserve of cash -- collected from both liberal and conservative churches -- to hire good lawyers and drag the cases out until the local parishes run out of cash.

Unfortunately, the liberals have mastered the legal language of the spirit of the age. As Johnathan Swift once wrote, "I said there was a society of men among us, bred up from their youth in the art of proving by words multiplied for the purpose, that white is black, and black is white, according as they are paid. To this society all the rest of the people are as slaves." Because of this, we have such inconsistencies as abortion is legal because pre-born babies are property and property rights trump the right to life, but Dred Scott is illegal because people (namely slaves) can never by property because nothing can trump the right to life.

Fighting is necessary, but it is not enough. We need to be smart and strategic, as the early christians were, even in the midst of their persecutions. For one thing, conservative parishes within the TEC need to stop funding the TEC and if they choose, build a legal fund to defend parishes that wish to leave. Finding ways of attacking the Denis cannon collectively may be also part of this strategy. We need to work together because as Franklin once said, "We either hang together or we hang apart".
bcwright
Posted: 2009/10/30 14:00  Updated: 2009/10/30 14:00
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/4
From:
Posts: 528
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
I really believe that for TEC this is soley about getting even/punishment first and property second.

I suspect that a good part of it is the belief (hope?) that for many of those departing into the ACNA or the Continuum, the homesickness for their original parish buildings will eventually cause them to crawl back into the arms of the TEc.

Of course, if you treat people poorly they're likely to think poorly of you. As the old saying goes, "Friends may come and friends may go, but enemies accumulate." The TEc has sure been accumulating a lot of enemies lately - and that will come back to haunt them.
hunter
Posted: 2009/10/30 14:21  Updated: 2009/10/30 14:52
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2007/4/29
From:
Posts: 124
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
anilwang:

I could not agree with you more. It has been absolutely absurd the way many individual parishes have handled this up to now.

In far too many cases, all that has been accomplished is a string of detrimental precedents upon which the next judge simply relies.

Seems to me the old saw about doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result applies all too well.

As we also know, there are certain states where TEC knows it holds the upper hand. These people have been brilliant in what they have accomplished so far.

And there are those parishes just sitting back and waiting for another parish in their state to do all the legwork, do all the heavy lifting, take all the risks of being first on the block, and spend a small fortune to achieve a successful result before they, themselves, become involved. That could be a good strategy in their own self-interest; but I would hope, as Christians, that such parishes could join together, share expenses and legal acumen at the very least.

To me, it is unconscionable for things to be handled in any other way. Hopefully folks will wake up, come together, share resources, and move forward together.
webb2k
Posted: 2009/10/30 14:52  Updated: 2009/10/30 14:52
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2007/3/23
From: MISSOURAH!!!
Posts: 103
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
Kelpie, it's not a Freudian slip. It's an Irish Bull similar to the one in the John Wayne movie "The Quiet Man" when the antagonist said, "He'll regret it to his dying day, if he lives that long!"

DPJ071, though I am certain TEc would not allow buildings to be sold to ACNA (they have said as much), I am uncertain if it is LEGAL for them to DENY SALE BASED ON BELIEFS. Wouldn't civil rights laws come into play here?

Finally, I read something last week in one of my textbooks that made me think about the whole mess. In Edmond Clowney's book "The Church" he is discussing the battles between the Gnostics, Novations, and the Orthodox. On page 86 he says, "Gnostics omitted the orthodox (from churches and councils) because they did not have their secret knowledge." Sound familiar?

Peace and Blessings!
Cennydd
Posted: 2009/10/30 15:04  Updated: 2009/10/30 15:07
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6863
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
Bcwright, I think you're right.

It looks to me like Mrs Schori's not-so-new motto nowadays is "Might makes right," and therefore she's pursuing a vendetta against everyone who opposes TEC's strategy....the New Age thinking of the radicals who've seized control.

In her case, it's the "financial might" behind the power play.

But there's a downside to this power play, because if they keep this up, sooner or later they're going to spend themselves into oblivion. It may be years down the road, but it will happen.

TEC, as we all know (but Schori and Company keep denying it), is shrinking, while we are growing steadily. They have nothing to offer....but Christ does.

Something is going to give eventually, like the old cow whose udder is drying up, and she can't give any more milk. And any farm kid knows what happens next.

Therein lies the future of TEC as I see it.

Cennydd
Causidicus
Posted: 2009/10/30 18:05  Updated: 2009/10/30 18:05
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/3
From:
Posts: 1095
 No Mercy
DV wrote: "No mercy, it seems, is written on the foreheads of revisionist bishops." Yes, one can feel the love flowing from the PB and her star chamber counsel all the way to the hinterland.

I have it on very good authority that above the front doors of all revisionist TEC parishes the words are to be ascribed: ABANDON HOPE ALL YE WHO ENTER HERE.
unitarian
Posted: 2009/10/30 18:15  Updated: 2009/10/30 18:20
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/12/31
From: Bryn Mawr, PA
Posts: 307
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
What do we know about the fate of properties from which parishes have been driven?

Here in Philadelphia we have St. James the Less, a jewel of a church with something like five bishops sleeping in the churchyard.

The place is vacant, and though now adopted by St. Mark's, it has no congregation or services. Talk of a bible school next summer. They do have a custodian.

I fear that one of these days the place will be vandalized and perhaps burned. Meanwhile the parish continues elsewhere.
daveball
Posted: 2009/10/30 18:21  Updated: 2009/10/30 18:21
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/12/18
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2377
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
TEc's whole strategy and tactical plan hinges on the Dennis Canon. Their whole proposition is that they have the right to unilaterally claim ownership of property that they have not invested in. Unless and until the Dennis Canon is litigated, probably up the the SCOTUS, the real issue will not be resolved and conservatives will continue to lose individual skirmishes.

It's time to fight this battle.
cath1
Posted: 2009/10/30 21:52  Updated: 2009/10/30 21:52
Just popping in
Joined: 2009/10/30
From: chicago
Posts: 6
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
When is this Dennis canon going to be tested in court. Everyone talk's about it but nothing being done.
Just wondering!

Charles
Cennydd
Posted: 2009/10/30 23:56  Updated: 2009/10/31 2:01
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6863
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
Cath1, your guess is as good as anyone's.

I don't think anyone knows yet, although I won't be surprised to see it come up during trials scheduled for early next year.

I'm not an attorney, so anything I might say would be pure speculation, but I think the Dennis Canon issue will eventually have to come before a Federal court, and eventually the Supreme Court of the United States.

Of course, there's no guarantee that the Justices will agree to hear the case, should it get that far....or so I've been told.

This is an issue which clearly needs to be addressed at the highest level, and we must insist on a resolution.

Cennydd
TBWSantaFe
Posted: 2009/10/31 15:26  Updated: 2009/10/31 15:26
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 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
The money that built these churches was donated to the Episcopal Church -- and if it was not loaned, the donors have relinquished any and all control of how the money is spent. Again, if I claim a tax deduction for my contribution to the Episcopal Church or The United Way I can not claim ownership interest in it.

The Dennis Canon is not the villain here: it is the misunderstanding, fomented by the right, that charitable contributions entail an ownership right in a parish church. If anyone at virtueonline believes otherwise, I would urge them to consult a tax attorney before claiming such interest -- follow that advice and you will save yourself a lot of money and avoid jail time.
Causidicus
Posted: 2009/10/31 15:56  Updated: 2009/10/31 15:56
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Posts: 1095
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
The idea that the internal revenue code treatment of charitable donations has anything to do with the right of the parishioners, the vestry, and diocese to own property they built and paid for as against some claim of a voluntary association with an administrative apparatus based in New York City is as silly as the theft based notions behind the Dennis Canon.

Oh, by the way, I hereby declare myself trustee of all real estate owned by any revisionist wheresoever located. ITS MINE ALL MINE!
Mike4winns
Posted: 2009/10/31 20:29  Updated: 2009/10/31 20:29
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 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
TBWSantaFe
I do not know how you filled out your check, but I made it out to my local parish. When I received notice of the donation for tax purposes, I did not get anything from TEC. TEC did not sign the mortgage papers when we added an addition to the existing church, I did (as Sr. Warden). TEC did not pay the utilities, the insurance, the garbage collection etc. The local parish did. If TEC really thought it owned the property, then why was it not titled in the name of TEC? This is how the Catholic Church does it and there is no doubt who owns the church property.
Cennydd
Posted: 2009/11/1 2:33  Updated: 2009/11/1 2:53
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6863
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
DITTO, Mike!

The people of the Episcopal Church got screwed royally when they let the Rev Canon Walter Dennis of New York write that canon, and failed to understand what it really meant because they weren't told what it really meant when it came time for the delegates to vote on it. Another case of not letting parishioners know in advance about what is to be voted on at General Convention.

And then they let General Convention get away with making sure it "passed."

And by the way: I understand that the results of the "passage" of the Dennis Canon are buried somewhere in TEC's archives in Texas, and nobody....especially lawyers for traditionalist parishes and dioceses....can get access to them for some mysterious reason.

I wonder what that reason would be? I wonder what it is that TEC's trying to hide? Or could it be that the Dennis Canon really didn't pass in the manner and form specified by TEC's own canons, and they're trying to cover it up?

I'm no lawyer, but I think maybe the Department of Justice Criminal Fraud Division should do a little digging.

Cennydd
RTGAL
Posted: 2009/11/1 2:50  Updated: 2009/11/1 2:53
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From: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 10
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
Anyone in Ft. Worth paying attention? When will you convince Iker to sue Sewanee for his 1/28 share of the $250,000,000 endowment fund?

If Sewanee doesn't want him and his trustees, it shouldn't be allowed to keep his money.

Does Iker still allow those slick Sewanee fundraisers into his diocese? They are a constant pestilence here in Alabama.
bradhutt
Posted: 2009/11/3 11:09  Updated: 2009/11/3 11:09
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2004/5/5
From: Washington D.C. Metro Area
Posts: 146
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
Cenny dd,
Correct again - we were told the Dennis Canon was created to protect the individual parishes, so that parish property could be covered under a National Church Insurance Umbrella Policy. SURELY OUR OWN BISHOPS WOULD NOT BETRAY US..........FRAUD SOUNDS GOOD TO ME
Cennydd
Posted: 2009/11/3 22:01  Updated: 2009/11/4 13:40
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 6863
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
Bradhutt, if what you say about the purpose of the Dennis Canon is true, I wonder how many Episcopalian pew-sitters in the know are aware of this?

How many pew-sitting attorneys and accountants would be willing to dig deeply into this business and look for the truth, regardless of the cost?

This entire Dennis Canon affair literally reeks of dishonesty among the TEC hierarchy, and a long, complete and thorough investigation....no matter how long it takes and who it hurts....is long overdue.

If I were still in TEC, I would demand absolute honesty from the House of Bishops, the Presiding Bishop, the Chancellor, the Executive Council, the Council of Advice, and the House of Deputies, and I'd settle for nothing less.

Anything less is criminal, in my opinion.

The truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing BUT the truth!

Enough is enough!

Cennydd
bradhutt
Posted: 2009/11/6 8:49  Updated: 2009/11/6 8:49
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Joined: 2004/5/5
From: Washington D.C. Metro Area
Posts: 146
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
Cennydd,
No question about it. Conserv parishes ought to get together and file lawsuits. About 50 LAWSUITS OUGHT TO DO IT, all filed at the same time in 50 States, Just on the validity of the Dennis Canon.
bradhutt
Posted: 2009/11/6 9:07  Updated: 2009/11/6 9:07
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Joined: 2004/5/5
From: Washington D.C. Metro Area
Posts: 146
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
And another thing, why did the Diocese of Easton MD reorganize in 2004 with a new Corporate Charter excluding the historic parishes who held irrevocable Trusts of Organization prior to the formation of TEC?
Did they see all this furor over the Dennis Canon coming and lock in their parishes so they could never leave? I also understand those parishes included in the reorganization were not allowed to make a parish yes or no decision but were committed by the diocesan convention and if they didn't sign the organizational documents, the diocese would sign for them. In addition the dio convention passed a rule that individual parishes could not sue the diocese without dio convention approval!
jfmckenna
Posted: 2009/11/9 13:13  Updated: 2009/11/9 13:13
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Joined: 2006/2/4
From:
Posts: 584
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
A new strategy seems in order. Here are two elements to consider: (1) a much more unified approach to supporting individual parishes under seige; and, (2) a communications campaign in which people from the relevant areas can influence public opinion in our favor. Judges may say they're not influenced by public opinion, but if it is expressed rationally, history shows they often are.
DPJ071
Posted: 2009/11/15 15:24  Updated: 2009/11/15 15:24
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Joined: 2009/7/21
From:
Posts: 105
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
TBWSantaFe,
What? Are you serious about your comment? Any and all pledges I have given were to my parish, NOT TEC! What funny, at least in my Diocese, my parish sends me a yearly tax statement. I don't recall seeing 815's name on it. If what you said were true, then I would be making a check out directly to TEC, not my parish. What's wonderful here in TX is that we can go to county websites and see who owns what property. Try looking up church property in Tarrant Co. (FtWorth). Not one property is owned by TEC.
Anonymous
Posted: 2009/11/18 2:04  Updated: 2009/11/18 2:04
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
Fort Worth is still quite as a mouse. When will they make a claim for what is theirs here at Sewanee?

EQB Sewanee Stand Firm

http://www.standfirminfaith.com/
Hoofin
Posted: 2009/11/29 10:46  Updated: 2009/11/29 10:50
Quite a regular
Joined: 2009/4/11
From: Japan
Posts: 44
 Re: THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: To Sue or Not to Sue, That is t...
This is what I can't understand: people cry about the Dennis Canon, but most all the deeds involved clearly state that the property is held in trust for the Episcopal Church (USA), which is an easily defined organization.

The property is held in trust for the benefit of a certain use.

It's unfortunate that the world changed, and now there are regular attendees who aren't happy with the TEC. But they still put plate and pledge money in without restrictions.

I am not the brightest bulb in the pack, but it seems to me the contemporary donors can put their money in trust as well. And say, money goes to this parish unless X, Y or Z, where it will instead go to [fill in some conservative alternative]. And the parishes with endowments should put them in income generating investments, like high-yield bonds (Vanguard High Yield: VWEHX)and just spend down the income. Usually the trusts say, income to parish use, principal conserved.

Run the parish off the endowment until the diverted pledge and plate builds up to be a substitute source of funding. And then, at that point, you have the rules written the way you want. And you can potentially rent the building back if they empty it.

He who has the Gold writes the rules, that's the Golden Rule that's been in play here.

I am all for a rule of law on this too. But I don't see why people haven't been smart about it over the last 30 years.
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