Anglicans Swimming The Tiber : LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope's treatment of Dr Rowan Williams
LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope's treatment of Dr Rowan Williams
Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
The Times
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6888208.ece
October 24, 2009
Lord Carey of Clifton has called on his successor as Archbishop of Canterbury to complain to the Pope in person about not being consulted over plans to admit disaffected Anglicans to the Roman Catholic Church.
Lord Carey warned that the Pope's strategy could damage relations with the Vatican. Lord Carey, who stepped down in 2002, urged Dr Rowan Williams to protest strongly when he visits the Pope in Rome next month.
Lord Carey was speaking after the joint press conference this week between Dr Williams and the Catholic Archbishop of Westminster, the Most Rev Vincent Nichols, to announce the move. Under an apostolic constitution decree, the Pope will set up personal ordinariates, or extra-geographical Roman Catholic dioceses, such as those that already exist in the military, to take in former Anglicans who oppose women bishops and accept the Petrine ministry of Rome.
Dr Williams appeared distressed when he said at the press conference, hosted by the Roman Catholic Church in Eccleston Square, that he had known nothing of the initiative until two weeks ago. He was notified formally only when Cardinal William Levada, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, visited last weekend to fill in some of the detail.
The Times understands that the former Archbishop of Westminster, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, a former co-chairman of the AnglicanRoman Catholic International Commission, known as Arcic, tried unsuccessfully to stop the apostolic constitution being published. His protests and others' concerns delayed its publication, intended for last February.
The two archbishops presented the constitution as "a response by Pope Benedict XVI to a number of requests over the past few years to the Holy See from groups of Anglicans who wish to enter into full visible communion with the Roman Catholic Church".
They said: "The announcement ... brings to an end a period of uncertainty for such groups who have nurtured hopes of new ways of embracing unity with the Catholic Church."
Lord Carey said that he, too, had been caught unawares by the development, which some insiders believe has dealt a death blow to 40 years of official ecumenical dialogue under the auspices of the Council for Christian Unity, if not to the Anglican Communion itself. The council was not involved in preparing the constitution.
He sought, however, to make the best of the development. "I give it a very cautious welcome," he said. "It is worth considering because there are a number of deeply worried, anxious Anglo-Catholics who do not believe they have a constructive future in the Church of England with the ordination of women as bishops.
"I was pastorally concerned for them when I was Archbishop of Canterbury. I know Rowan is as well. So this could go a long way to helping."
The Times has learnt it was reports of bishops emerging in tears from the General Synod meeting last July that rejected all provision for traditionalists that finally provoked Rome into offering them a home.
Lord Carey said that there were two positive aspects to the new Apostolic Constitution. "This initiatve is almost a back door ecumenical gesture. What we have seen is the failure of the final report of Arcic. Straightforward ecumenism at the theological level is going nowhere. This fresh initiative could have surprising consequences."
George Austin, former Archdeacon of York, said: "Rome has done this cleverly because the Catholic bishops in England are liberal. The Pope has shown considerable leadership. That is what Popes do. What has surprised me is the sort of people, and number, who have said they will leave."
END
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| Poster | Thread |
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| JRoss | Posted: 2009/10/24 13:13 Updated: 2009/10/24 13:13 |
Home away from home   Joined: 2004/3/15 From: New Jersey Posts: 896 |
 Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'...""Lord Carey warned that the Pope's strategy could damage relations with the Vatican. Lord Carey, who stepped down in 2002, urged Dr Rowan Williams to protest strongly when he visits the Pope in Rome next month."""
Carey and Williams themselves have more to damage relations with Rome than this latest happening with their ignoring the liberal influence in the Anglican Church. |
| railbirdbc | Posted: 2009/10/24 13:59 Updated: 2009/10/24 13:59 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/6/6 From: Posts: 767 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... Planet earth to Lord Carey ... get a life! You prelates defecate all over God's property, and then you whine when someone else comes along and offers a way out for your disenfranchised church members. You characters really are beneath contempt!
If Lord Carey is so all fired concerned about the pope poaching Anglicans and offending Rowan Williams, then he himself should have behaved like a Christian leader; he could have help to prevent this present scenario. To Carey and Williams, I say, ICHABOD! |
| Alabamian | Posted: 2009/10/24 14:09 Updated: 2009/10/24 14:09 |
Quite a regular  Joined: 2009/9/8 From: Posts: 49 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... Carey is not the only one "appalled." There are plenty of us ordinary laypeople out here are also appalled, even outraged. I only wish the Abp of Canterbury had stood up to the Vatican when it was time to do so and tell the pope to MYOB. The moment is now lost and the pope is in control. When your house is on fire and your neighbor comes over and pours gasoline on it, that is no time to invite him in for tea.
The idea that the archbishops of Canterbury brought this on themselves is nonsense. It's blaming the victim for the crime. We have heard a lot lately about how good and generous the pope has been and how we should all be grateful. Good and generous for the Anglo-Catholics who hate the Church of England. And for that we should be grateful? I don't think so. |
| Neill | Posted: 2009/10/24 14:36 Updated: 2009/10/24 14:36 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/9/13 From: Pakistan Posts: 158 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... ABC Carey enthusiastically endorsed WO to the point where he said it was heresy to oppose it. He then bequeathed the ensuing chaos to poor Rowan. He should spend his retirement praying for forgiveness for the damage he caused to the Church of God instead of spouting even more nonsense from time to time.
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| railbirdbc | Posted: 2009/10/24 15:04 Updated: 2009/10/24 15:04 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/6/6 From: Posts: 767 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... Carey and Williams should have done the job they were appointed to do -- lead the church, and not allow it to collapse into ruin. If a man wants to be a shepherd of God's people, then he should lead by God's standards and not be led by the world's standards. They are without excuse before God and man. They chose to accept the role of official ministers of God. In the real world a man who chooses to be a manager and then fails to manage is fired. How sad that the standards for the Christian church are so much lower then they are for worldly corporations.
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| Kelpie | Posted: 2009/10/24 15:09 Updated: 2009/10/24 15:09 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/7/5 From: Scotland Posts: 259 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... "I was pastorally concerned for them when I was Archbishop of Canterbury. I know Rowan is as well."
Yeah right, Mr. Magoo....... |
| Kelpie | Posted: 2009/10/24 15:20 Updated: 2009/10/24 15:20 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/7/5 From: Scotland Posts: 259 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... "The idea that the archbishops of Canterbury brought this on themselves is nonsense. It's blaming the victim for the crime."
Nonsense? Really? The crime was letting this situation get so out of hand that one section of our Church found itself so unloved and abandoned that it had to rely upon the kindness of strangers. For that, both Carey and Williams are responsible. I'm no great friend of Roman primacy, but these two by their spinelessness have pretty much allowed Rome to assert itself and justify its claims in the most vivid way seen in almost half a century. At least Williams had the self-awareness to appear embarrassed as Rome did it the other day. Carey is in denial and resorting to the sort of bombast we've come to expect. |
| anilwang | Posted: 2009/10/24 16:13 Updated: 2009/10/24 16:13 |
Just can't stay away  Joined: 2009/10/11 From: Posts: 71 |
A misleading analogy @Alabamian,
Your analogy about the house fire is misleading. Rome did not add gasoline. They simply provided shelter in their own home for people who were already willing to accept whatever Rome provided. A much better analogy would be that the liberal toaster oven caught fire. The Abp of Canterbury asked the fire to defy its nature and stay confined. It continued to spread over decades. He still requests to stay calm. It continues to spread. Meanwhile, firewalls are being set up in the Africa wing and North American wing trying to protect themselves from the fire. But the people wings with fire try to break down the fire and claim that the fire is more important than the house. Meanwhile, the Abp of Canterbury still asks for patience. Some people in the house are fed up and left the house, looking for a new home. The Eastern house next door also looks attractive due to its no fire policy, but it also has other restrictions that make the move a bit less welcoming. The Roman house across the street, for all its problems has also begun to look very attractive since it has a no fire policy. The Roman house has now offered rooms for the fire refuges and allowed for the refuges to bring their own furniture, as long as they obey Roman rules. The Abp of Canterbury is upset that the Romans could have taken advantage of them. After all, he was still working on the problem. All he needed was a few more decades of deep thought before he acted -- possibly finding a way for a burning house to burn forever without anyone being inconvenienced. The Vatican offer would not be palatable if the Abp of Canterbury had actually done something other than hope that the problem went away. So far, there has been a lack of leadership, but I believe God has used these Babylonians to punish the Anglicans people for being so lax in the last. It is a chastening that will either result in Anglicanism being purified or Anglicanism falling apart. |
| frmarkcj | Posted: 2009/10/24 16:35 Updated: 2009/10/24 16:39 |
Just can't stay away  Joined: 2004/1/5 From: Kennesaw, GA Posts: 132 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... The Pope does not owe either an explanation or an apology for what he has done. He has acted as a true shepherd of the flock. It is the ABC's who should be apologizing for allowing heresy to run rampant in the Anglican Communion without seeking to put a stop to it. The present ABC is a heretic. He is not a shepherd of God's flock and he is certainly not a servant of the servants of God.
Tell me one time that the present ABC has tried to take Christ at His Word and implement Matthew 18 in regards to disciplining TEC or CofE. Not once. Had he done so, TEC and the CofE bishops would have been excommunicated by now. The only hope now for the Anglican Communion is for the "orthodox" bishops and primates to stop the saber rattling that has been going on for several years and actually start putting Scriptural Church discipline into action. |
| Alabamian | Posted: 2009/10/24 17:32 Updated: 2009/10/24 17:32 |
Quite a regular Joined: 2009/9/8 From: Posts: 49 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... Let's keep this civil, shall we? It is offensive for anyone to call the spiritual head of the Anglican Communion a heretic.
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| Hkepfer | Posted: 2009/10/24 17:37 Updated: 2009/10/24 17:39 |
Not too shy to talk   Joined: 2004/11/30 From: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 31 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... Lord Carey warned that the Pope's strategy could damage relations with the Vatican. Lord Carey, who stepped down in 2002, urged Dr Rowan Williams to protest strongly.
Isn't time for more orthodoxy and less protesting? Protesting has lead to Gay & Lesbian Bishops & Priests; at the alter, same gender weddings, endless debate, recriminations and revisionist history. Stop protesting and please pray with us with orthodoxy as if communion rail. Lord Carey, speak your mind but don't neglect your and the souls of others as you continue to urge protestant'stesting. |
| Hkepfer | Posted: 2009/10/24 17:43 Updated: 2009/10/24 17:43 |
Not too shy to talk Joined: 2004/11/30 From: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 31 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... Does Lord Carey live in a bubble?
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| chaps | Posted: 2009/10/24 18:07 Updated: 2009/10/24 18:07 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/2/11 From: Posts: 446 |
Re: "Let's keep this civil" Keeping things “civil” is how we got into this mess in the first place. Let’s focus on being honest and expressing it in a manner that is “civil”. If we are honest, we acknowledge that, by his own published statements, the Archbishop of Canterbury believes homosexual behavior isn’t a sin (see, eg, “The Body's Grace”). It is heresy to maintain such a position, so the Archbishop of Canterbury is a heretic. You might not agree with that conclusion, but it’s not honest for you to try to silence someone by saying that it’s not civil.
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| bcwright | Posted: 2009/10/24 22:12 Updated: 2009/10/24 22:26 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/7/4 From: Posts: 528 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... Nonsense? Really? The crime was letting this situation get so out of hand that one section of our Church found itself so unloved and abandoned that it had to rely upon the kindness of strangers.
Hear! Hear! Is there really anyone left who honestly thinks that ARCIC was likely to go anywhere after everything that's happend?! And is there anyone left who honestly thinks that even if it did succeed, that anything more than a slim minority of the Anglican Communion would be receptive to reunion or even intercommunion with Rome? If so, I'd submit that you've been living in a dream world! What can you possibly say about communities such as the TAC who have found the Anglican Communion utterly inhospitable? What about those who are still in the Anglican Communion who are being forced either to renounce their strongly-held beliefs or to leave (eg, FiF)? if the Anglican Communion wishes to rid themselves of such people (which they have more than adequately demonstrated by their actions), why should they be insulted or surprised if someone else responds to their cries for help?! I'm not a great fan of Rome (Although I have to admit that I have a great deal of admiration for Bennie XVI as a person and as a theologian), but this just doesn't make any sense at all. Where were you when they needed you?! If you don't want them, why should you be insulted if someone else does?! |
| CH-Discern | Posted: 2009/10/24 22:51 Updated: 2009/10/24 22:51 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2009/10/10 From: Posts: 259 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... The humiliation of the ABC (and by proxy the CofE) was certainly in order.
It is my belief that God cares a great deal about creating revival in the Church of England. It is too late for TEC. Apparently, the Lord found it necessary to use the Pope to get the attention of the CofE. Will it work? We will see. Maybe not. But Ninevah repented when Jonah reluctantly did his job. May God use this event to wake England up. Obviously, from the responses of VOL posters, the definition of heresy (vs. orthodoxy) is still unclear to many. It is not at all offensive or uncivil to me to call it heresy when a church leader publicly allows (and even supports) that which is clearly sin in scripture. And one who promotes heresy is... what? We must continue to put scripture in the place intended by God, as the only verifiable authority in this age for our direction in faith and morals. What is the “Word of God”? It is God’s communication to us, most certain and clearly found in the words of Jesus Christ. And where else can we find the words of Jesus than in scripture? As for the OT, it was Jesus’ Bible and He used it frequently as a source of divine authority. Without submission to scriptural authority, heresy will continue to infect the Church. Perhaps such an assertion is radically orthodox. May such orthodoxy grow and grow and grow… |
| DPJ071 | Posted: 2009/10/25 0:44 Updated: 2009/10/25 0:44 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2009/7/21 From: Posts: 105 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... I hardly think the AB Canterbury is a "victim", rather he is just another part of the secularization of the Anglican Communion, the leader who is part of the progressive movement. Williams sure hasn't helped the situation any and obviously Carey is just as dimwitted.
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| FrankV | Posted: 2009/10/25 2:25 Updated: 2009/10/25 2:25 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/1/5 From: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 302 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... It's a bit late for the ABC (and yourself) to be complaining to the Pope now isn't it. The cat's out of the bag and is going to catch some mice.
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| Alabamian | Posted: 2009/10/25 11:51 Updated: 2009/10/25 11:51 |
Quite a regular Joined: 2009/9/8 From: Posts: 49 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... This web site is owned by David Virtue who is gracious enough to offer it to all of us free of charge. He only asks of us in return, under "Terms of Service:" "courteous discourse only," "do not insult Anglicans who are differnt than you," "throwing insults is prohibited." Let's respect the wishes of our generous host.
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| chaps | Posted: 2009/10/25 15:53 Updated: 2009/10/25 15:53 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/2/11 From: Posts: 446 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... Pointing out that the ABC holds beliefs that are heretical is germane to the discussion and a matter of fact, not an insult. If you don't like the ABC being called a heretic, instead of continuing to whine about it not conforming to pc rhetorical style, have the intellectual and academic integrity and honesty to deal with the substance of the issue instead of the form: have the guts to argue that the ABC's beliefs conform to Christian orthodoxy and then try to support that absurd position. You are obviously unable to sustain that position because the ABC's published statements are heretical, so stop whining.
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| Traktaryan | Posted: 2009/10/25 16:21 Updated: 2009/10/25 16:21 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/7/16 From: Posts: 710 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... Pope Benedict XVI has responded to requests from Anglicans who approached him and asked if they could be received into the Roman Catholic Church and retain at least some of their Anglican heritage. I would submit that this appears appalling only to those who don't understand what actually happened. Anglicans come to the Pope asking to be accepted, and the Pope is supposed to say, "only if it's okay with your Primate"?
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| Alabamian | Posted: 2009/10/26 12:07 Updated: 2009/10/26 12:07 |
Quite a regular Joined: 2009/9/8 From: Posts: 49 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... He is supposed to say, "The Anglican Communion is not my business. Mine is the Roman church. If you want to enter my church, you are welcome. If you want to stay Anglican, go talk to your authorities."
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| bcwright | Posted: 2009/10/26 15:24 Updated: 2009/10/26 15:35 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/4 From: Posts: 528 |
Re: LONDON: Lord Carey 'appalled' by Pope'... If you want to enter my church, you are welcome. If you want to stay Anglican, go talk to your authorities."
What if, as is the case with the TAC who started all of this in the first place, it IS the church hierarchy who are part of the petition? In the case of the TAC, they have not even been part of the Anglican communion for decades - so it hardly seems pertinent to approach Canterbury regarding what to do with them. It's not uncommon in nearly every Christian tradition to make certain cultural and devotional accommodations to various ethnic or cultural groupings within the larger communion. It's certainly done in the Anglican Communion as well. I just don't see the big deal - anyone who doesn't like the idea (for whatever reason) is free to stay where they are. Outside a few Anglo-Catholics, I don't think we'll see a very big response in any event. At least, not unless the entire Anglican Communion disintegrates - which is certainly not outside the realm of possibility no matter what Rome does. |
