AMIA ?
If true, well, isn't that just charming.......supporting those who have broken federal and state laws...

Now, isn't that just a lovely Biblical, Scriptural stance?

No wonder people want nothing to do with religion and have no pity on certain "christians".
Shame on the AMIA.

And I do not want to hear excuses.
Either we live by the rule of law in the United States or we do not.

Before you condemn AMiA, look at the other names in the list, like

The PCA

The Salvation Army

The Brethren Church

The Vineyard Church

Amnesty is about GRACE for those who felt they had no other practical choice but to come to the US any way they could. Do I support legal rights for illegals? NO WAY! But amnesty is the grace that these desperate people need. Especially in light of the problems deporting the estimated 12 million illegals, the costs for court, enforcement, etc.

We need an immigration policy that allows for "high walls and wide gates." If you want to come, enter by the gate.

Amnesty should be a one-time thing, though, and no grace past the cut-off period.

I say "Well done!" to my denomination for this, as we ALL should be in the business of GRACE!

Ideally, I would agree that they all should be deported, but it truly is unworkable.

Peace and Blessings

The problem, webb2k, is that amnesty has already been a “one-time thing.” Doing it again means more illegals will realize that they merely need to hide for a few years until the next “one-time thing” and they'll get included in the next amnesty. Granting yet another amnesty will only lead to more of this.

webb2k:

This is not about "grace".

This is about enabling people to continue in illegal activity.
This is about condoning illegal activity and rewarding people for engaging in it.

hunter, thank you for your clarity. You are right. Let us never forget that condoning illegal activity and rewarding it is what this is all about, amnesty my foot.

If the ACNA ever becomes part of the NAE I for one will be gone from the ACNA. The National Association of Evangelicals went off the deep end several years ago in my opinion. They were great in the days of Dr. Stephen Olford but no longer.

Politically, for the sake of the nation of USA, I agree with hunter. This will only encourge more of the same, and burden taxpayers unfairly (especially if the wrong-headed health reform bill goes through).

Spiritually, for the sake of the Gospel and the Kingdom, I agree with webb2k. I am not a bit ashamed of AMiA and the other Christian groups. Bottom line: My citizenship is first and eternally with the Kingdom of God, and only secondarily and temporarily with the USA. Sometimes we have to make a hard choice.

This is a nation of laws. The essence of our society is, or at least before January 20 used to be, that people were required to abide by the law. The word "illegal" in "illegal alien" means that these people have broken the law. They should be punished rather than rewarded. The vast majority of those who are illegal aliens came here to steal the largesse of this nation, to suck dry its resources and return little or nothing. Please, don't tell me that these people came here with an honest desire to work and become part of this nation. That simply is not true. Welfare statistics, crime statistics, drug statistics, prison population statistics refute that assertion very clearly. Unless and until we close our borders to illegal entry and throw out those who are here, we will continue to dump billions of dollars into the cesspool of illegals. Amnesty is a naked political power play on the part of politicians who see a large vote pool. Nothing more. Don't talk about grace or any other altruistic pap. Amnesty is ruinous theft of our tax money and will result, eventually, in the theft of large pieces of our country. Want to learn how these folks think? Visit the La Raza web sit and read how they intend to annex a large chunk of the country.

Any organization that supports amnesty is simply not realistic or incredibly naieve.

Thank you for the excellent information and the "heads up" re La Raza, daveball. This is exactly the type of information we need to share with one another.

Is it possible Chuck Murphy and those in his group are clueless about La Raza ?

Politically, for our own selfish sake, sure: enforce the laws, make those walls high. But when a nation chooses NOT to enforce its laws, then obviously it is not committed to them and they are not really laws at all. Practically speaking, either enforce them or take them off the books. The gov’t needs to quit speaking out of both sides of its mouth (pretty hard to do when you have a two party system).

OK, now let me speak to you legalists: If Christ were a Pharisee, I would have to agree with your view. So, you are saying that God loves (relatively wealthy) citizens of the USA more than poor Mexicans. So God loves you more than them? Where is the compassion here? What if you were born into a poor Mexican family near the border and your family’s survival depended on your finding a way to get into the US to work? Believe me, you would not care much about breaking the (poorly enforced) US laws if your family was starving.

The truth is, according to scripture, God cares more about the poor. And He did not gift us with this great land just to keep out the poor people who do not speak English. For shame, Christians! Where’s your heart?

Well said CH-Discern

"Any organization that supports amnesty is simply not realistic or incredibly naieve."

Church hierarchies are, for the most part, filled with individuals who want to use their positions to push some left-leaning political agenda. A good example is the National Council of Churches. For the most part, they are not only worthless, but actually do quite a bit of harm.

CH,

I said no such thing as "God loves wealthy more than the poor". You are assuming that every illegal immigrant is here only as an alternative to starving. Not true. You are assuming that the Mexican government has no responsibility to take care of the poor. Not true. You are assuming that the churches in Mexico, mostly the RC has no responsibility to show compassion to the poor. Not true. You are assuming that we have some responsibility to take care of all those who simply see a better deal here than elsewhere. Not true. There is a huge part of the illegal flood that comes here only to soak up the benefits we offer. We have better medical facilities than Mexico. We have better schools (although our educational system seems working hard to eliminate that advantage). Jobs pay more. So where is the imperative as "compassion" to give this to those who haven't paid for it and don't really want to work for it. Please don't site the parable of the rich young ruler because that's a different circumstance. And please don't get melodramatic with the "if you family were starving" stuff. That is simply not the case in the vast majority of illegals. By the way, Jesus had nothing against obeying the civil law. Yes, God cares for the poor but He does not say everyone has to have exactly the same. Nor does he say that if you can work that you have any right to not work and still take. And most certainly does say that you must obey the Ten Commandments which is a major failing of illegal immigrants.

This is our second go-around on amnesty. Either we mean to regulate our immigration or we don't. Apparently, we don't. President Obama is decreasing the number of Border Patrol Agents down here:
Border Patrol Director of Media Relations Lloyd Easterling confirmed that his agency is planning for a net decrease of 384 agents on the U.S.-Mexico border in fiscal 2010, which began on October 1.

Mexico is exporting her poverty to us because they won't deal with it. Mexico has more billionaires than Switzerland. Mexico is rich in natural resources, has a large tourism industry, and has a huge labor source. Yet Mexico's people are dirt poor and uneducated, and their government is corrupt at all levels.

The Roman Catholic Church could make a difference down there if they had a mind to. In the meantime, brush up on your Spanish.

Isaac

Just ran into some interesting information in the remainder of an almost identical article that was published elsewhere:

"Others, including conservative writer Patrick J. Buchanan, wonder why the endorsement of plans to grant full amnesty fails to create national outrage. He points out that while 25 million Americans remain unemployed or underemployed, “8.5 million U.S. jobs are held by illegal aliens who broke into the country or overstayed their visas.”

Senator Schumer and other advocates for amnesty argue that illegals take jobs that Americans are unwilling to accept.

This argument has been laid to rest by a raid on six Swift & Co. meatpacking plants which rounded up 1,200 illegal aliens, 10 percent of the workforce. The raid failed to create any employment problems for Swift. In a matter of weeks, the plants were operating at full force – - manned by hundreds of native-born Americans who were delighted to take the jobs.

Says Vanderbilt University Professor Carol Swain, “Whenever there’s an immigration raid, you find white, black and legal immigrant labor lining up to do these jobs Americans will supposedly not do.”

daveball,
I was not addressing you in my post. But it is interesting that you instantly identified yourself with those I called “legalists.”

Some would say that I want to make this issue too simple. What would Jesus do? What did Jesus say when asked about how to love your neighbor? Perhaps our Samaritans to the south need us to have more compassion. Perhaps Jesus needs us to have more compassion and less self-protectionism.

Walk on the other side of the road and look the other way if you will, but I see hurting people and I agree with the decision of these churches.
If I must make a sacrifice and take a tax hit, so be it. If you do too, I am not very sympathetic for I guess that you are doing well.

Believe it or not, I am a political (and theological) conservative. I confess that God has recently sensitized my conscience and indicated to me that some (heart) things are more important than other (legal, political) things.

The federal government has the prospect in proving to the American workers and legal population that they are wrong in thinking that politicians are catering to the open border parasites? Two laws could be imposed, that would assign employment to elderly citizens and others, as a vanguard in inspecting I-9's auditing forms for use with the E-Verify, computer verification software. Thousands of jobs could be created as an interior illegal immigration force, giving ICE more backing in investigating businesses hiring foreign labor? In all regions of the country these interior inspectors would listen to Whistle blowers and then investigate companies, such as with the apparel company in Los Angeles who had to jettison 1800 foreign nationals. To me it's very questionable that a company the size of that clothing company could be completely ignorant of its workers, specifically in a SANCTUARY CITY AND STATE like CALIFORNIA?

Another idea is in the commencing voting season next year? Instead of just taking the incumbents and clean faced lawmakers by their word? That when they swear an oath that they will protect and defend the American people, we should hold them to it? We should ensure their honesty by having them sign an agreement executed under perjury, that he/she will defend us from foreign and domestic enemies? Let's face it if you study the immigration enforcement grading at NUMBERSUSA, a highly regarded pro-sovereignty website, you will observe Sen. Harry Reid has a C- ? He and Nancy Pelosi, Janet Napolitano, Sen.Chuck Schumer (F- ) Diane Feinstein ( F ) and countless others have used their political influence to under fund, create obstacles and otherwise use Senate-House laws to collapse any worthwhile enforcement laws such as police apprehension 287 G and the No-Match letter? Ask yourself? What do these politicians have to gain from keeping our border fence wide open? Even the church is approving the BLANKET AMNESTY, when the 1986 was just a facade of fraud. Perhaps the churches would like to open their coffers, homes and bring in illegal alien families to squat there, instead of dumping it in the lap of the taxpayers yet again? My Baptist church has very few passionate people, when it means feeding their own families?

Just type into Google each name followed by illegal immigration as many are brought and sold once they get to Washington, as out from the sleazy woodwork comes the lobbyists with bags of money. For an example type in Pelosi--illegal immigration--corruption. One headline reads--NANCY PELOSI CULTURE OF CORRUPTION! Nancy Pelosi, Dianne Feinstein Appropriated Federal Funds for San Francisco DA's Program that Expunged & Kept Illegal’s Criminal Records from the Feds: The diseased lists of political sleaze goes on and on. The rumors that Pelosi has vineyards in Central California have an abundant illegal alien labor? If you really want to know the--TRUTH--about the next path to citizenship for the 20 to 30 million foreign nationals, just surf the net.

The federal government has the prospect in proving to the American workers and legal population that they are wrong in thinking that politicians are catering to the open border parasites? Two laws could be imposed, that would assign employment to elderly citizens and others, as a vanguard in inspecting I-9's auditing forms for use with the E-Verify, computer verification software. Thousands of jobs could be created as an interior illegal immigration force, giving ICE more backing in investigating businesses hiring foreign labor? In all regions of the country these interior inspectors would listen to Whistle blowers and then investigate companies, such as with the apparel company in Los Angeles who had to jettison 1800 foreign nationals. To me it's very questionable that a company the size of that clothing company could be completely ignorant of its workers, specifically in a SANCTUARY CITY AND STATE like CALIFORNIA?

Another idea is in the commencing voting season next year? Instead of just taking the incumbents and clean faced lawmakers by their word? That when they swear an oath that they will protect and defend the American people, we should hold them to it? We should ensure their honesty by having them sign an agreement executed under perjury, that he/she will defend us from foreign and domestic enemies? Let's face it if you study the immigration enforcement grading at NUMBERSUSA, a highly regarded pro-sovereignty website, you will observe Sen. Harry Reid has a C- ? He and Nancy Pelosi, Janet Napolitano, Sen.Chuck Schumer (F- ) Diane Feinstein ( F ) and countless others have used their political influence to under fund, create obstacles and otherwise use Senate-House laws to collapse any worthwhile enforcement laws such as police apprehension 287 G and the No-Match letter? Ask yourself? What do these politicians have to gain from keeping our border fence wide open? Even the church is approving the BLANKET AMNESTY, when the 1986 was just a facade of fraud. Perhaps the churches would like to open their coffers, homes and bring in illegal alien families to squat there, instead of dumping it in the lap of the taxpayers yet again? My Baptist church has very few passionate people, when it means feeding their own families?

Just type into Google each name followed by illegal immigration as many are brought and sold once they get to Washington, as out from the sleazy woodwork comes the lobbyists with bags of money. For an example type in Pelosi--illegal immigration--corruption. One headline reads--NANCY PELOSI CULTURE OF CORRUPTION! Nancy Pelosi, Dianne Feinstein Appropriated Federal Funds for San Francisco DA's Program that Expunged & Kept Illegal’s Criminal Records from the Feds: The diseased lists of political sleaze goes on and on. The rumors that Pelosi has vineyards in Central California have an abundant illegal alien labor? If you really want to know the--TRUTH--about the next path to citizenship for the 20 to 30 million foreign nationals, just surf the net.

GOOGLE–JUDICIAL WATCH and learn what your financial future has in store for you. Ordinary people have been crippled by financing illegal immigration? That’s right! They bleed you for more and more taxes to supplement the poorly paid income of illegal workers? Remember it’s not the US government who pays for free health care, education for the millions of illegal kids brought over here. Removing the chance of a decent education for our kids? It’s the US taxpayer who can hardly afford to balance their own budgetary needs. The only people who benefit from cut rate labor are the dishonest business owners. That’s why we need mandatory E-Verify, to disrupt their hiring of cheap labor. Even our kids cannot get summer jobs any more, because fast food employers hire illegal workers?

If American workers don’t get organized and run these political renegades out of town, we will have a BLANKET AMNESTY to deal with. We can stop this travesty by holding their feet to fire at 202-224-3121 and yelling they will not be reelected.

URGENT: TEA PARTIES NATION WIDE ON NOVEMBER 14 AGAINST BLANKET AMNESTY. NO MORE MONEY FOR ILLEGALS’

Today, Sen. David Vitter (R-LA) will be offering an amendment to the Commerce, Justice, and Science appropriations bill that would require the U.S. Census Bureau to add questions regarding immigration & citizenship status to the 2010 decennial census. If these questions are not asked it is certain that illegal aliens will be counted in the census and states will lose/gain Congressional seats (and electoral college votes) due to this counting of illegal aliens.DEMAND FROM YOUR SENATORS THAT SEN. VITTERS’ AMENDMENT BE INCLUDED.

Let's start with Romans, Chapter 13:


1Let every person(A) be subject to the governing authorities. For(B) there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you(C) will receive his approval, 4for(D) he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God,(E) an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also(F) for the sake of conscience. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7(G) Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.


Verse 2: Those who violate US immigration law must incur judgment because they have blatantly disobeyed.

Verse 7: We have a government BY THE PEOPLE and these illegal immigrants are not paying taxes to whom they are owed, instead they are dis-respecting the true citizens of the Untied States of America. They continue to honor Mexico (examples: cinco de mayo celebrations, La Raza, et al) while thumbing their noses at us.



Now let's consider the words of Our Lord Himself as reported in Matthew, Chapter 7:



1(A) "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2(B) For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and(C) with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but(D) do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
6(E) "Do not give(F) dogs what is holy, and do not throw your(G) pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.


Verse 5: Firstly, we are not to look upon these people with contempt because to do so is sinful. Our government is the problem in that those who have the authority will not use it as they have been charged. We DO have the responsibility to press our government to repatriate these illegal persons in order to teach them the lesson that ignoring our immigration laws and disrespecting our citizens are not allowed and are certainly against the Laws of God. Our government has not said people may not come but instead has decreed the method by which someone may come peacefully and respectfully. Therefore their trespass is sin and WE THE PEOPLE through our government have the responsibility to respectfully point out that trespass to them so that they will not sin again.

Verse 7: This has La Raza written all over it along with too many other "visitors".



Wimps can twist the word however they like, but they remain wimps. To be a Son of God through the saving grace of Our Lord's holy sacrifice brings with it significant, difficult responsibilities. In the case discussed here, we have a significant responsibility (as a society) to respectfully help our brothers south of the border to see the errors in their ways. This includes pressing the Mexican government to do right by its own people. These people come here because they have a corrupt government that is not taking care of its citizens but instead exports them to us. Does this make the Mexican government more apt to change its ways?


Jesus told us that we would be hated because of our love for Him. I just hope when I stand at the pearly gates that I'm not counted with the wimps..............