Exclusives : GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvation is "heresy," "idolatry"
GC2009: Episcopal Presiding Bishop says individual salvation is "heresy," "idolatry"
News Analysis
By David W. Virtue in Anaheim
www.virtueonline.org
7/9/2009
The Presiding Bishop of The Episcopal Church, Katharine Jefferts Schori derided individual salvation calling it 'the great Western heresy: that we can be saved as individuals, that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God.'
In her opening address to the church's General Conference in California, Jefferts Schori said it was a "heresy" to believe that an individual can be saved through personal faith and trust in Jesus Christ acknowledged in a prayer of repentance.
She said that view is 'caricatured in some quarters by insisting that salvation depends on reciting a specific verbal formula about Jesus.'
According to Schori, it is heresy to believe that an individual's prayer can achieve a saving relationship with God. "That individualist focus is a form of idolatry, for it puts me and my words in the place that only God can occupy."
Ms. Jefferts Schori is dead wrong.
The entire message of both Old and New Testaments is God's pursuit of man, not man's search for Ubuntu.
Her ridiculing of personal salvation in favor of social amelioration through Millennium Development Goals is little more than a rehash of the Social Gospel of the Sixties that has seen a massive hemorrhaging of mainline denominations in America.
Jefferts Schori is on the wrong side of history. Her, and the church's understanding of mission - to save the world for God - is arrogance and hubris. No one human being, organization or ministry has that capacity. God alone has the power to save the world. Jesus himself admitted that the poor would always be with us.
We are called to be obedient to The Great Commission, "to go into all the world and preach the gospel" of God's grace, inviting people into his kingdom based on the very (and personal) call to repentance.
It is not about a "formula", as Jefferts Schori caricatures it. The Sinner's Prayer is not a recitation of the Four Spiritual Laws. Formula faith is not real faith; it never has been and never will be.
Many of those who have come to faith in Jesus Christ have wrestled with that call. St. Paul's Damascus Road experience was no "Ubuntu" moment. Neither was the experience of John Bunyan of Pilgrim's Progress, an everyman character, which centers itself on his journey from his hometown, the "City of Destruction" ("this world"), to the "Celestial City" ("that which is to come": Heaven) atop Mt. Zion. He is only and finally freed from the weight of his burden - the knowledge of his sin - when he repents of his sin at the foot of the cross.
Jefferts Schori will have none of that kind of faith or talk.
Ironically, it is precisely that kind of faith that has energized more than 100,000 Episcopalians in 700 parishes and 28 dioceses to leave The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada to start another Anglican Church on North American soil to preach THAT gospel which she rejects.
Is it any wonder then that The Episcopal Church is on a trajectory towards death while the Anglican Church of North America is on an incline to life.
Last week's, the Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans meeting in London was a reiteration of the "faith once for all delivered to the saints" the call to "Be Faithful" amidst a culture of unfaithfulness, decadence and decline.
The Church of England, and its counterpart The Episcopal Church together have average Sunday attendances that make up one decent sized Nigerian diocese. Is it any wonder then that focus of Anglicanism is no longer in the West but in the Global South.
This begs the question, at a deeper level, as to why the fast-growing Anglican Communion in the other two-thirds of the world needs to pay service, even lip service to Canterbury.
Today, the Archbishop of Canterbury pleaded with The Episcopal Church at a Eucharist to make decisions regarding human sexuality that "would not push us further apart."
He said that if people elsewhere in the Communion are concerned about this, it's because of a profound sense of what the Episcopal Church has given and can give to our fellowship worldwide.
That statement is simply not true. The amount of money that TEC has used to buy loyalty or win provinces over is not working. Just ask the Archbishop of the Sudan. What The Episcopal Church has "given" to the Anglican Communion has caused discord and dissent.
Bishop Robinson's consecration has not only profoundly affected evangelism to Muslim peoples it has brought Muslim opprobrium on Anglicanism and Christianity in general. It has also brought discredit on a communion that many feel has permanently lost its way.
Western pan Anglicanism is in decline. It's only hope is a reaffirmation of a gospel that does not wince at substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, forgiveness of sins through repentance and faith and the hope of eternal life.
END
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| Poster | Thread |
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| Isaac | Posted: 2009/7/9 21:27 Updated: 2009/7/9 21:27 |
Home away from home   Joined: 2004/3/1 From: Texas Posts: 595 |
 Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio...Many people who call themselves Christian are unmoved by the acceptance of homosexuality and same sex unions.
Well, now the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church has, basically, called true Christianity "heresy" and "idolatry." Let me put it another way, the Presiding Bishop is NOT a Christian. Those of you fence sitters on the issue of homosexuality, now try this one on for size. Thank you for the analysis, David. Isaac |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2009/7/9 22:17 Updated: 2009/7/9 22:36 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... If there ever was the slightest doubt as to whether or not this woman is a Christian, this proves that she isn't!
She should NEVER have been admitted to seminary! NOW how do you loyal Episcopalians feel about your Presiding "Bishop?" I can just imagine how this statement of hers is going to sit with the rest of the Primates. Their reaction should be very interesting! Cennydd |
| Fidelis | Posted: 2009/7/9 22:48 Updated: 2009/7/9 22:48 |
Just can't stay away   Joined: 2008/2/25 From: Sydney Posts: 72 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... David, I would be interested in the reaction of those attending, to Schori's bizarre 'theology'.
I find it hard to believe that a whole leadership could be hoodwinked, or tolerate, this woman's grave error. But I guess the TEC is so far down the road to perdition that her captive audience actually applauded her.... |
| Ikerliker | Posted: 2009/7/10 0:52 Updated: 2009/7/10 0:52 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2046 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... That has to be THE single most unflattering picture of Mrs. Schori I have even seen. LOL!
All I can say is - while it is indeed "shocking" than any Christian leader would deny that Jesus saves, I would expect no less from this "bishopess". Anyone who follows her is being deceived. Talk about going to hell in a handbasket. OY VEH! |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2009/7/10 1:17 Updated: 2009/7/10 1:18 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... The Episcopalians have been hoodwinked, sucker-punched, snookered, bamboozled, and taken for a ride!
Cennydd |
| Aneirin | Posted: 2009/7/10 1:35 Updated: 2009/7/10 1:35 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2008/12/30 From: Southern California Posts: 162 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... The Bible is full of warnings. Read II Peter and Jude for starters.
Beware her apostasy! |
| Liberty | Posted: 2009/7/10 1:40 Updated: 2009/7/10 1:40 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2006/3/6 From: Posts: 102 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Schori has the headdress and the staff, and was sworn into office, she soitenly must know something. I bet she got gold stars on her coloring in Kindergarten.
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| railbirdbc | Posted: 2009/7/10 3:12 Updated: 2009/7/10 3:12 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/6/6 From: Posts: 723 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... It's hanging around with squid too long that did it to her. Softened her brain tissues. Reminds me of that old classic horror flick, INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS; the one that snatched her body must have from the planet BOZO, cause she's sure a clown.
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| otispage2 | Posted: 2009/7/10 3:59 Updated: 2009/7/10 3:59 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 602 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Isaac nails it.
Jefferts Schori is not a Christian! She is a damn fool elected by homosexuals to destroy a once great church. ABC has now become her pimp. Someone tell the Queen. Even Henry VIII would be disgusted! |
| LGMarshall | Posted: 2009/7/10 4:20 Updated: 2009/7/10 4:20 |
Quite a regular  Joined: 2008/11/25 From: Posts: 54 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... TEC was formerly known as the ... FROZEN CHOSEN .... but now I think it's safe to say... it's LONG GONE.
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| fresnohye | Posted: 2009/7/10 5:09 Updated: 2009/7/10 5:09 |
Just popping in  Joined: 2009/4/8 From: Fresno, CA - Anglican, and ONLY, Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 13 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Is she serious, or is this some sort of religious satire? Where does she get her ideas? Must be from CDSP. Now, aren't you glad you are in ACNA?
DPK |
| johncarl | Posted: 2009/7/10 5:35 Updated: 2009/7/10 5:35 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2008/4/18 From: Posts: 122 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Ikerliker: I agree. However that picture seems to suit the story - just follow the yellow brick road.
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| Hazegray | Posted: 2009/7/10 9:14 Updated: 2009/7/10 9:14 |
Not too shy to talk  Joined: 2008/9/22 From: Posts: 24 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... How nice to hear that the PB had "a beautiful green and gold vestment" specially made for the occasion. But calling other Christians "petty despots" seems a little judgmental to me. Oh well, if the "church" keeps growing all will be well.... or will it?
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| Seraph | Posted: 2009/7/10 11:00 Updated: 2009/7/10 11:00 |
Just popping in  Joined: 2007/8/13 From: Alexandria, VA Posts: 14 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... I know some pretty liberal ECUSA ministers, sometimes I even question Bishops Peter Lee's hand in my conformation, and literally 3 blocks down the road from my house is Virginia Theological Seminary. But all this time I still believed that albeit most of the ECUSA still believed in John 3:16 and Romans 3:23 and maybe even Romans 6:23. I thought they just loved the world too much, and easily overlooked sexual imorality. I thought they would rather listen to a philosopher then the bible. But ultimately, I still believed, most ECUSA ministers (who in a few cases became bishops) choose that calling because at some point in their life they fell in love with the word of God and his Big "C" Christian Church.
Now you read this, and the other statements by the PB, and I have to wonder why even the most socially liberal of True Christian leaders aren't totally stunned by this. Is there not one saved soul amoung them? I have many socially liberal confessing christian friends, even a few gay ones. And while I completely disagree with them, even they would say this is completely wrong. Salvation comes from a personal realization that you are a sinner and have a broken realtionship with God and only through Jesus' death on the cross can you be made whole again. If Christianity is anything, it is that and that alone. Why wear a cross? Does it mean nothing? No wonder these were the few "so-called christians" on the planet who felt nothing from "The Passion of the Christ." |
| Fisherman | Posted: 2009/7/10 11:42 Updated: 2009/7/10 13:24 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/8/25 From: Dallas - Province of the Southern Cone, DoFW Posts: 675 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... The presiding heritic sings the siren song which may, indeed, be the TEc swan song. I pray both will become mute.
As for idolatry, methinks she stands in front of a mirror too often. And for those who think the problems faced by the ACNA are insurmountable, I suggest that they consider the words of Kate and how they affect those still in TEc. For Kate? "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 |
| Fiddleback | Posted: 2009/7/10 12:04 Updated: 2009/7/10 12:04 |
Just popping in Joined: 2009/1/12 From: Posts: 2 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... "I'll get you my pretty......and your little thurible too"
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| mathman | Posted: 2009/7/10 12:51 Updated: 2009/7/10 12:51 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/5/26 From: Rockville, MD Posts: 1028 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Aneirin: you have used my best line.
I remember confirmation class. Yes, I do. I remember the discussions about the unforgivable sin. And questions about those who cannot be renewed to repentance. The last time I checked, repentance was an individual act, performed by an individual, in the presence of Almighty God. We repent collectively, that is true, but at the same time each of us does so as an individual. We receive forgiveness collectively, that is also true, but at the same time the mercy comes to each one of us. When John came into the wilderness, preaching Baptism and repentance, individuals went forward, one at a time, to be baptized. Sounds pretty individual to me. When Jesus began His ministry, He called Disciples, by name, one at a time. Again, sounds pretty individual to me. When Paul gave thanks to those who assisted in his ministry, he thanked them by name. My sheep hear me, said Jesus. Contained in the naming at Baptism is the idea that God knows each of us by name. Better move on, folks. Sister Katherine has another gospel. |
| esniii | Posted: 2009/7/10 13:03 Updated: 2009/7/10 13:03 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/3/29 From: Posts: 385 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... "It is what comes out of a man's motuh which makes him unclean."
Clearly schori drank the women's lib kool-aid, and doesn't believe that spouting heresy engangers her immortal soul. Maybe chief priestess 'Driftwood' should go back to her chief instructor 'Screwtape' and get some better words- these lies are naked and obvious. |
| patulous | Posted: 2009/7/10 14:03 Updated: 2009/7/10 14:06 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/5/18 From: Posts: 1746 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Quote: PB Schori said, "In her opening address to the church's General Conference in California, Jefferts Schori said it was a "heresy" to believe that an individual can be saved through personal faith and trust in Jesus Christ acknowledged in a prayer of repentance."
Esnii: God Bless you for you have helped to clear up the mistake that most of the posters have made. The following scriptures are pertinent to your statement: Matthew 15:16-18, NKJV, So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. Matthew 5:8, “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God” It is Jesus’ teaching that the part of a man that matters is his heart. What matters to God is not so much how we act, but why we act; not so much what we actually do, but what we wish in our heart of hearts to do. “Man, sees the deed, but God sees the intention.” William Barclay If we pray to God with truth and understanding and know what we are doing, our intent(the state of mind with which an act is done) is to live and feel Christ's presence in our lives and be forgiven of the sin we are so destined to commit everyday, it makes no matter if we do it in a group or alone with Christ in a quiet place. Schori is a true demon leading a former Christian Church and will surely meet her master, the devil soon. I doubt that she has personally understood that reading a prayer of forgiveness out of the BCP with the whole congregation can be truth and right, but individuals are responsible to put themselves into a humble prayerful position mentally to achieve that oneness with Christ. Furthermore, many of those that are praying in a group are just saying the words, their connection with God is absent. All of us are required to live personally for God, and keep our closeness with God through our daily prayers. We have to keep that channel open so God can speak to us, in His "still quiet voice," at anytime. Schori has it backwards, just like a demon, and will preach against God and biblical truth. |
| daveball | Posted: 2009/7/10 14:18 Updated: 2009/7/10 14:18 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2004/12/18 From: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 2281 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... This witch becomes more bizarre with each passing utterance. That she is not a Christian has been apparent for some time. This is just piling heresy upon heresy. I can't believe anyone is still in TEc.
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| mtucker | Posted: 2009/7/10 14:29 Updated: 2009/7/10 14:29 |
Just popping in Joined: 2009/7/10 From: Posts: 10 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Well, she calls herself a Christian and many millions of people recognize her as such.
As far as I have learned, if she has accepted Christ into her heart, she is a Christian, end of story. And, nothing she does can remove her, you or me from the love of Christ. You may not like it, but that is basic Christian theology. |
| btaylor | Posted: 2009/7/10 14:58 Updated: 2009/7/10 14:58 |
Quite a regular Joined: 2006/6/26 From: California Posts: 65 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... You may want to reconsider your statement in light of Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Also consider Hebrews 10:26-27 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Accepting Christ into her heart is a logical impossibility. She says that salvation is not an individual issue, so how could she have accepted Christ into her individual heart? Blessings, The Watchman |
| ETaylor | Posted: 2009/7/10 15:07 Updated: 2009/7/10 15:07 |
Just can't stay away  Joined: 2004/1/7 From: Missouri Posts: 103 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Where is a good strong lightening bolt when you need it?
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| blackshama | Posted: 2009/7/10 15:54 Updated: 2009/7/10 15:54 |
Quite a regular Joined: 2009/7/10 From: Posts: 49 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Did Dr Schori ever read the "parable of the lost sheep"?
American Episcopal silliness once more! |
| Causidicus | Posted: 2009/7/10 17:13 Updated: 2009/7/10 17:13 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/7/3 From: Posts: 1065 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... She also chucks the entire reformation in the trash bin with her ruptured duck theology. The new battle cry of the schoriaformation will be: SOLA UBUNTU.
But ... you know... it doesn’t really matter. A little unbuntu here, a little indaba there, we talk, we group, we sit in circles barefoot and soon, it’s all about the warm, gooey, swishy, feelings and nothing else counts. Why, just the other day, they were all drinking a case of Indaba (tm) brand wine (no fooling, check your local importer!) and everything began to feel better for them. I am told that if you add the yaqui way of knowledge (mezcal cactus) or other 60's hallucinogens to the mixture and THEN read her speech it all starts to make a kind of ... sense. You can almost reach shamandaland if you invoke the proper ancestor spirits. |
| unitarian | Posted: 2009/7/10 17:50 Updated: 2009/7/10 17:50 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/12/31 From: Bryn Mawr, PA Posts: 307 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... I thought I had taken the measure of these people, but clearly not.
This is simply not Christianity. Rather it is good old secular meliorism, belief in human progress, the Tower of Babel etc. Familiar, failed in the past, and still wrong. |
| Roland | Posted: 2009/7/10 17:57 Updated: 2009/7/10 17:57 |
Just popping in  Joined: 2004/11/4 From: MaryLand Posts: 20 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... On this issue, +KJS is spouting not heresy but hypocrisy. Her statement that we cannot be saved as individuals is actually quite orthodox. In the Orthodox Church, we say that the only place you can go as an individual is to hell. We are saved only as members of Christ's Body, the Church.
Rather, I have to agree with Christopher Seitz of the ACI: "If by the 'Western heresy' she meant the individualism of the Enlightenment, the priority of the individual conscience as articulated by Kant, or the need for individual certainty in science and history suggested by Lessing, 'these are bedrock foundations of TEC liberalism.'" If TEC were to turn its back on individualism, it would have to give up its self-indulgent, schismatic push for the acceptance of homosexuality - and all the rest of its liberal protestant heresies. As usual, I think +KJS is just repeating something she heard that sounded nice without actually understanding the implications of what she is saying. I can't believe that she is truly asking TEC to repent of its individualism and to embrace a more communitarian ethos. |
| warmac9999 | Posted: 2009/7/10 18:25 Updated: 2009/7/10 18:25 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/2/16 From: Posts: 1447 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... I wondered if GC2009 would eventually reject the entirety of Christianity, and I now have my answer. I do not see how TEC can continue with such leadership and such a shift in theology. I suspect that TEC will eventually merge with some other group when the money and the people run out - probably within a generation. What a sad end to such a magnificent christian church.
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| dturk | Posted: 2009/7/10 18:35 Updated: 2009/7/10 18:36 |
Home away from home Joined: 2004/5/26 From: Posts: 404 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... This broken heretic's crooked mouth is nothing more than an endless font of theological sewage, in which the majority of TEC continues to bathe. Schori conjures up the image of Nero twiddling on lyre. However in this instance, it is not Rome that is burning.
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| Newshound | Posted: 2009/7/10 19:59 Updated: 2009/7/10 19:59 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/5/5 From: Posts: 233 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... I believe we will learn a lot during this convention. The next step will be to see if the TEC Orthodox bishops (Central Florida) step up to the plate and stand up..stand up.. for Jesus
John 14:6 Acts 4:12 |
| Bulwark | Posted: 2009/7/10 20:19 Updated: 2009/7/10 20:22 |
Just popping in Joined: 2009/7/10 From: Posts: 12 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... I would suggest PB Schori read the Service of Holy Baptism in TEC's BCP. That might help. Sheesh!
Unfortunately, those who have remained with TEC are now subject to the message sent to further heresy, namely "come on in!" When the going gets tough, the weird go pro. |
| Fiona | Posted: 2009/7/10 20:20 Updated: 2009/7/10 20:20 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/1/18 From: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 1070 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... I know that this woman was never a parish priest, but did she ever attend Confirmation classes? She would not have passed the one I taught!
By the way, has anyone seen or heard of Mr. Schori since her elevation? Fiona |
| frjude | Posted: 2009/7/10 20:25 Updated: 2009/7/10 20:25 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/1/9 From: Heartland Posts: 277 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Maranatha! Come quickly, Lord Jesus!
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| DJ1943 | Posted: 2009/7/10 20:26 Updated: 2009/7/10 20:26 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/11/30 From: Ohio Posts: 240 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... How in the name of God can anyone stay affiliated with the Episcopal Church with leadership like Schori and Robinson. They've turned the church into a laughing stock and a general embarassment.
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| frjude | Posted: 2009/7/10 20:28 Updated: 2009/7/10 20:28 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/1/9 From: Heartland Posts: 277 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... I won't...I'm finding a way out.
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| Mtngospel | Posted: 2009/7/10 20:50 Updated: 2009/7/10 20:50 |
Just popping in Joined: 2008/11/24 From: Posts: 12 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... I sat in an adult forum at our former church about 6 years ago. Living in Sewanee we would have seminarians "cut their teeth" in ministry with us & part of that was providing some kind of adult forum. we had some really inspiring ones & others not so much.
One seminarian gave us a video to watch in which a mother was distraught that her daughter had committed suicide. She was not raised to respect Christianity & low & behold as she got into her adolescence years that she fell into all sorts of misbehavior including witchcraft. The mother was suddenly at odds with herself as to what happened to her daughter. Did she perish in hell? This would be a sad day for any parent to confront. She contacted an Episcopal preist who told her ( listen to the moral of the story here) Your daughter did not perish in hell because God does not send people to hell. He cares too much for them. That we were in heaven & some in hell here now on earth. As I responded " I must be catching a lot of the hell part these days". My response to this fantasy was that if I did not have to worry about going to hell, What was I doing wasting my time in church? & please do not teach my chidren this as I am trying to raise them in a Christian home with moral responsibilities. I only admire Kate for being open & honest which is more than I can say for others in the House of Bishops & House of Deputies. Thanks be to God that I found my way out of TEc & into Christ the King Anglican in Winchester TN. Please I advise others to leave, let TEC implode & then we can rebuild it again. SG |
| joemia | Posted: 2009/7/10 22:55 Updated: 2009/7/10 22:55 |
Just popping in Joined: 2008/10/24 From: Posts: 7 |
Re: right on!... Your comments are so right on!
Jesus died for all of us, not just a few.  |
| railbirdbc | Posted: 2009/7/10 23:10 Updated: 2009/7/10 23:10 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/6/6 From: Posts: 723 |
Re: right on!... joemia:
Christ died for all, but too few accept his terms, and so shut themselves out in the cold. Some claim God would be a brute and a bully not to just accept everyone, regardless of whether they consented or not. Others might also see him as a bully if they rejected him and were dragged into glory kicking and screaming. God has standards. Humanity is the party without standards in this scenario. At the last day many who called Christ, Lord, will be shut out. But no person who calls upon the Lord for salvation will be shut out. But each one must "freely accept" the gracious offer. Scripture is very clear on this point. And the Presiding Bishop should know this, if she paid attention during her theology classes in seminary. |
| fyffee | Posted: 2009/7/10 23:57 Updated: 2009/7/10 23:57 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2005/5/16 From: Carnarvon, Western Australia Posts: 101 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Is there a link to her whole address? What an idiot this woman is to accuse the majority of Anglican Primates and bishops, clergy and laypeople, and perhaps even the Archbishop of Canterbury himself, of being heretics. Why does she want to remain in communion with us any longer? She should follow through with her forthrightness and take ECUSA out of the communion and begin her own church without any theology. Stop the pretence that ECUSA is Anglican any longer!
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| fyffee | Posted: 2009/7/11 0:03 Updated: 2009/7/11 0:05 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2005/5/16 From: Carnarvon, Western Australia Posts: 101 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... mtucker - I am not sure of your claim that millions of people recognise her as Christian - really? millions? perhaps those without any discernment of the truth might take her claim to be Christian at face value without really considering what a Christian truly is. I doubt she has accepted Christ into her heart as her Lord and Saviour, since it seems to me she was saying such a personal confession and experience of conversion is unnecessary and even heretical.
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| Cennydd | Posted: 2009/7/11 0:41 Updated: 2009/7/11 0:43 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Well then, mtucker, according to Mrs Schori, every faithful Orthodox, Anglican, and Roman Catholic layperson, deacon, priest, bishop, archbishop, Pope, nun, friar, and lay brother in the history of Christendom is a heretic, too! In that case, we're in pretty good company!
SHE, however......... Cennydd |
| Aneirin | Posted: 2009/7/11 3:06 Updated: 2009/7/11 3:06 |
Home away from home Joined: 2008/12/30 From: Southern California Posts: 162 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Behold apostasy!
Will anyone at the convention confront it? |
| Ikerliker | Posted: 2009/7/11 3:34 Updated: 2009/7/11 3:34 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2046 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... By the way, has anyone seen or heard of Mr. Schori since her elevation?
Fiona My understanding was that he stayed behind in Nevada. However, he traveled with her recently and took pictures (he was her photographer in NV). Not sure if he eventually moved to 815 or if he visits once in a while. He keeps a LOW profile. |
| CityTroope | Posted: 2009/7/11 10:28 Updated: 2009/7/11 10:29 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2004/12/2 From: Rosemont, PA Posts: 148 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... "Ms. Jefferts Schori is dead wrong." Sorry, David, in this case I must disagree. For the Wicked Witch of the West Schori and her "new" religion, it is a "heresy" to believe that an individual can be saved through personal faith and trust in Jesus Christ acknowledged in a prayer of repentance.
In this case Schori is being totally honest. She simply does not believe in Christianity but in the "new" anything is alright, religion she and the others at general convention are promoting. The dishonest thing going on here is they have, through guile and pretending to be Christian, destroyed a Christian church for the apparent reasons of stealing the money and propagating their new religion. Actually, I would have more respect for the entire crowd if they acted like Jim and Tammy Fay Baker and simply stolen the money. |
| larsil | Posted: 2009/7/11 15:22 Updated: 2009/7/11 15:22 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2005/10/23 From: near Pittsburgh Posts: 166 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... After reading the headlines, the critiques, and the description (even at ONENEWSNOW.COM), I still couldn't believe that Bp. Jefforts Schori would make such a statement -- so I read the transcript of her address to see it placed in context.
It's there. It's been quoted correctly. And I am still stunned. Yes, the "Individual Salvation" of the Sinner's Prayer is more in the line of the Evangelical and Baptist expression of faith, but even the liturgically confirmed Christians have to come to a point where they OWN their confirmations and come to a point of faith for themselves! I would dearly like to see Bp. Jefforts Schori's definition of "salvation" and how TEC provides the same for its members. In the meantime, I'm going to review the 39 Articles again. ---L. |
| chorale | Posted: 2009/7/11 15:59 Updated: 2009/7/11 15:59 |
Just popping in Joined: 2008/4/8 From: County Durham, UK Posts: 13 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... You'd think that the good lady would be embarrassed at using the word 'heresy', while demonstrating for all to see that she does not know what it means. If the whole of Christendom, apart from the leader of the tiny fragment of Anglicanism which is ECUSA, accepts individual salvation; then by simple definition, it is that leader denying it who is heretic. n'est-ce pas?
Chris Baker - Durham UK |
| Getmeowt | Posted: 2009/7/11 18:03 Updated: 2009/7/11 18:03 |
Just can't stay away  Joined: 2008/1/23 From: Posts: 126 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Newshound--
The Bishop of Central Florida and others like him need to not only stand up for Jesus, but publicly rebuke her in the Name of Jesus, right there in Anaheim, shake the dust off and WALK AWAY. |
| mereille | Posted: 2009/7/11 20:19 Updated: 2009/7/11 20:19 |
Not too shy to talk Joined: 2006/10/17 From: Posts: 22 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... I agree with Getmeout. It seems that the Wicked Witch of the West (TEC) has drawn a pretty solid "line in the sand". I await the results...
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| cjconner | Posted: 2009/7/12 0:03 Updated: 2009/7/12 11:55 |
Quite a regular  Joined: 2007/5/14 From: Saint Paul Minnesota Posts: 52 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... WOW
This woman is not a Christian- but even worse, every US mainline denomination is ruled by clerics that agree with her on this point. That's why it is so important to forge a new future- "Lord to whom shall we go..." ..."You have the Words of eternal life." |
| stpetric | Posted: 2009/7/12 15:14 Updated: 2009/7/12 15:14 |
Just popping in Joined: 2007/9/6 From: Posts: 2 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... I'm no fan of the PB, and her "heresy" and "idolatry" language is a little over-the-top. However, her criticism was not of *personal* salvation, but of *individual* salvation. And although you don't provide any more extensive quotes from what she actually said, it would be entirely sound theology to claim that the alternative is not "social amelioration through Millennium Development Goals", but salvation in and through Christ's holy catholic church.
Of course, I don't necessarily trust that's what she had in mind -- though her words be smooth, they are very swords! But "individual" salvation apart from the church is indeed a protestant heresy. |
| jfmckenna | Posted: 2009/7/12 17:10 Updated: 2009/7/12 17:12 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/2/4 From: Posts: 495 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... I think the key to dealing with these people is direct confrontation, and I have a "Schori story" to illustrate my point. I was sitting on a commuter train just north of New York City. It stopped at the New Rochelle station and in stepped none other than Jefforts Schori and she sat near me. For the rest of the way toward Grand Central Terminal I considered whether to talk with her and what to say. Upon arrival I introduced myself and wound up talking with her all the way down the platform and into the terminal. Finally, I said, "I have an idea. Why don't we set up a moderated debate in which about ten people on my side are across a table from ten on your side, perhaps for twice a month. I'll send you a proposal." She agreed. After I sent the proposal, she responded that it would be better if it were set up first in my church with another church and that it proceed that way. Now, that fits with her divide-and-conquer strategy, doesn't it? I don't think she really believes that people with this kind of shoot-from-the-hip, invent-it-yourself theology would survive an assault from disciplined and devoted followers of Jesus Christ.
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| frjude | Posted: 2009/7/12 18:21 Updated: 2009/7/12 18:22 |
Home away from home Joined: 2005/1/9 From: Heartland Posts: 277 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... "The Bishop of Central Florida and others like him need to not only stand up for Jesus, but publicly rebuke her in the Name of Jesus, right there in Anaheim, shake the dust off and WALK AWAY."
Don't hold your breath...  |
| Myrmidon | Posted: 2009/7/12 21:19 Updated: 2009/7/12 21:19 |
Quite a regular  Joined: 2009/3/5 From: Somewhere in New England Posts: 70 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Re: "By the way, has anyone seen or heard of Mr. Schori since her elevation?"
Mr. (or probably Dr.) Schori has a website, http://oregonstate.edu/~schorir/ , but it hasn't been updated in several years. |
| rmadry | Posted: 2009/7/12 21:38 Updated: 2009/7/12 21:38 |
Just popping in Joined: 2005/1/12 From: Posts: 8 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... How strange is the reality that the Heretic In Chief of the Episcopal Church is calling born again Christians heretics? She should bother to read the Bible, all of it, not the severely expurged version that the Episcopal Church uses today.
Better yet, let God deal with her. we should shake her dust off our feet and move on. Her twitching ears betray her. |
| DSnouffer | Posted: 2009/7/13 2:35 Updated: 2009/7/13 2:36 |
Just popping in Joined: 2009/7/12 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... According to her website, the Presiding Bishop said: "The overarching connection in all of these crises has to do with the great Western heresy – that we can be saved as individuals, that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God. It’s caricatured in some quarters by insisting that salvation depends on reciting a specific verbal formula about Jesus. That individualist focus is a form of idolatry, for it puts me and my words in the place that only God can occupy, at the center of existence, as the ground of being."
The Presiding Bishop’s vision here seems faithful to 1 Corinthians 12:14-26, which describes the Church, God's people, as a body when doing God's work to bring in the Kingdom and, yes, the salvation of individuals. If the Church did not function as a body as God envisions, its missional work presumably would be dissipated. The Presiding Bishop argues, perhaps, that a Church rendered dysfunctional (and disobedient) by a breaking down of its collective being and action would imperil believers’ very salvation, although she does not explain how that would play out. She may not have wanted her address to appear overly scholarly, but the cause and effect may have been plainer had she articulated more directly scriptural underpinnings to her thinking (such as, conceivably, First Corinthians). Branding a stream of thought as “heresy” amounts to “fighting words,” and so the speedy adverse reaction was understandable. This article makes valid points, that personal repentance and responsibility, and our ultimate confidence that, as promised, God is in control and has the power to transform us in this life and save us for the next (and that he does so), are indeed bound up in a personal relationship with God. We ask others’ forgiveness, but we have to take our confessions to God, for we each have our own burden to confess, and ultimately where each of us puts his or her trust is a matter that each one, through personal thoughts and actions, determines for himself or herself. And while two or three are called to gather together for prayer, Jesus certainly also modeled for us individual prayer. I cannot imagine, however, that the Presiding Bishop intended to discount the significance of an individual’s coming to trust God for himself or herself, to repent in consequence of that belief, or to take concerns to the Lord in prayer. Interestingly, her call for the Church to work as a body parallels her efforts to keep the Episcopal Church in the wider Communion by satisfying other members with the Episcopal response to the Windsor Report and the Primates’ later pronouncements, even as a concerted effort is afoot at the present General Convention to repudiate at least one key resolution intended to comply with Windsor. |
| hapax | Posted: 2009/7/13 14:45 Updated: 2009/7/13 14:48 |
Not too shy to talk  Joined: 2004/10/19 From: Oxford (for the time being) Posts: 30 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... @Stpetric, Roland, fyffee and others:
You can read KJS's entire address here: http://www.americananglican.org/presiding-bishop-s-opening-address/ Granted, there is a certain ambiguity to her statements about "individual salvation" but if you read the entire address I don't think it's fair to interpret her as merely reexpressing the orthodox idea of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus (which by the way confessional Protestants also accept -- this is not just an EO or RC position). |
| hapax | Posted: 2009/7/13 15:19 Updated: 2009/7/13 15:48 |
Not too shy to talk Joined: 2004/10/19 From: Oxford (for the time being) Posts: 30 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... @Dsnouffer:
Yes, them's fighting words and as a Bishop who is supposedly theologically educated she should know what she means when she invokes the H-word. As an appointed teacher in the church we are right to assume she means what she says. 1 Cor 12:14-26 does not support the point you or KJS are trying to make. KJS could have said many correct, useful and helpful things about the sin of individualim in the modern Western church. But that wasn't the focus of her remarks. If she were arguing that in living out their faith many Western Christians neglect the corporate and communal nature of Christianity and have a low view of -- mistreat even -- the body of Christ then there would be nothing objectionable in her remarks and your reference to 1 Cor 12:14-26 would be pertinent. There quite clearly are many members of the one body with many different gifts. A hand on its own is not a body and an ear is no more or no less a part of the body than an eye. I would agree that much of modern Western Christiaity (and perhaps Christianity more generally) is overly individualistic and needs to repent in light of 1 Cor 12. But that is manifestly not the point KJS was making. She was specifically attacking the notion of individual salvation and you can't gloss over that by re-interpreting her remarks as a denunciation of a general kind of individualism in today's church (and society) of the West. KJS argued that the notion of individual salvation is a heresy and that the 'individualist focus' is a form of idolatry. She explicitly denied "that we can be saved as individuals, that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God". 1 Cor 12 doesn't help her in relation to that point since it is not about salvation as such. There are on the other hand many Bible passages in which the obligation to repent and believe the gospel is cast in individual terms and in which God promises that everyone (i.e. every individual) who is in Christ Jesus will be saved. That's a pretty clear Biblical affirmation of "individual salvation" in my book. If necessary I can cite these passages, but I suspect you're already familiar with many of them. Now I'm happy to admit that there is a degree of theoretical ambiguity in her remarks denying "that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God". The word "alone" here can have one of several meanings -- but all of them except one are so trite they hardly seem worth mentioning. One possibility is that she is saying that is impossible to be in a right relationship with God "alone" because the number of the elect is greater than one. Well duh. I'm obviously not the only Christian there is so I'm not "alone" in my right relationship with God. A second possibility is to say that none of us "alone" can be in a right relationship with God because a relationship is by definition multilateral. In order for A to be in a right relationship with B, B has to be in a right relationship with A. Well again, duh. A third possibility is to read her remarks as a re-expression of the idea of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus -- in other words you can't be in a right relationship with God and not a member of the body of Christ. But that's not what she seems to be saying. This leaves us with the remaining possibility. The Bible is quite clear that if a person is in Christ Jesus he is in a right relationship with God and conversely that if he is not in Christ Jesus then he is not in a right relationship with God. In this sense KJS is wrong in her remarks. One individual is in a right relationship with God, while another individual is not. Whether you are in a right relationship with God has nothing to do with the fact whether John Doe or Jane Roe are in a right relationship with God. In this sense salvation clearly is "individual". In this sense KJS is wrong to deny "that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God". |
| Bulwark | Posted: 2009/7/13 18:00 Updated: 2009/7/13 18:00 |
Just popping in Joined: 2009/7/10 From: Posts: 12 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... PB Schori's asking to launch an "Inquisition" against individual salvation shows the true progression of militant liberalism. They move inevitably from asking for tolerance for their views to dialog, then acceptance, and finally tyranny over those they oppose. At least she was honest though I doubt she meant to expose the real agenda.
BTW, who was it that said "since we must all die alone, we must all believe alone." That faithful Anglican John Wesley |
| dgmarker | Posted: 2009/7/13 22:48 Updated: 2009/7/13 22:48 |
Just popping in Joined: 2004/9/22 From: Pasadena, CA Posts: 9 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Well, at least no one will accuse Ms. Jefferts-Schori of being a theological heavyweight... In fact, I wonder if she knows anything at all about Christian theology???
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| dgmarker | Posted: 2009/7/14 0:51 Updated: 2009/7/14 0:51 |
Just popping in Joined: 2004/9/22 From: Pasadena, CA Posts: 9 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... As a follow-up to my earlier comment, I consulted the website of the National Church. Indeed, Ms. Jefferts-Schori is described as an oceanographer and an active airplane pilot; there is no mention made of any theological background or credentials. Therefore, it would appear that her non-Christian sermon is no more than the classical logical fallacy of appeal to false authority. Ms. Jefferts-Schori is the heretic, not those who are faithful to the Gospel of Our Lord! The leadership of this wonderful Church has fallen into the hands of those who are really no more than left-wing political operatives in ecclesiastical drag. Good Lord deliver us from this lunacy and save this branch of your Church from sure and certain destruction.
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| PorDumFrmr | Posted: 2009/7/14 16:00 Updated: 2009/7/14 16:00 |
Just popping in Joined: 2009/4/29 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Ms. Schori ,
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter (Isaiah 5:20) |
| FrankV | Posted: 2009/7/14 19:18 Updated: 2009/7/14 19:18 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/1/5 From: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 291 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... I see that Her Elegance has her rainbow coalition headgear on.
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| Mtngospel | Posted: 2009/7/15 20:25 Updated: 2009/7/15 20:25 |
Just popping in Joined: 2008/11/24 From: Posts: 12 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... In Tennesse, which welcomed her with open arms, the PB said concerning the growth in the Global South that "Jesus is not a tribal savior" & we should not be concerned with this nitpcky stuff (salvation/ gender issues/ believing the Bible as God'd Holy word) . Read into that comment @ www.dioceseoftn.org .
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| Laytone | Posted: 2009/7/16 12:31 Updated: 2009/7/16 12:31 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2004/5/21 From: Brewton, Alabama Posts: 89 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... You are 20,000 Leagues over the Presiding Biologist's head with this comment. She would have had to crack the book to understand what you're talking about.
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| Presbyman | Posted: 2009/7/17 17:00 Updated: 2009/7/17 17:00 |
Just popping in Joined: 2007/2/20 From: Pennsylvania Posts: 9 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... There's no better word to describe the PB than "clownish."
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| Helena | Posted: 2009/7/18 15:54 Updated: 2009/7/18 15:54 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2006/7/16 From: Posts: 75 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Head Claim Jumper
or is it Chief Claim Jumper? |
| Sagamore | Posted: 2009/7/18 21:37 Updated: 2009/7/18 21:37 |
Just can't stay away Joined: 2007/9/10 From: Posts: 135 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Seraph wrote:
"I thought they just loved the world too much, and easily overlooked sexual imorality. I thought they would rather listen to a philosopher then the bible. But ultimately, I still believed, most ECUSA ministers (who in a few cases became bishops) choose that calling because at some point in their life they fell in love with the word of God and his Big "C" Christian Church." Yes, they fell in love with it the same way a man falls in "love" with a woman because she has large breasts. In other words, because of how it may please them as opposed to the totality of what it is in itself. "Now you read this, and the other statements by the PB, and I have to wonder why even the most socially liberal of True Christian leaders aren't totally stunned by this." Why would they be? Christ: "I am the Truth." Pilate: "What is truth?" This is the whole core and the crux of the problem with liberals. The sooner conservatives realise and begin to attack this one issue relentlessly, the sooner we'll begin to win the culture wars. Fighting them on every singular issue is nothing less than accepting to do battle on the field of their choosing. Nothing dispirits me more than seeing conservatives trying to decry "liberal hypocrisy". You have to be operating from a fundamental principle held to be (essentially) universally true, and then betray it, to be a hypocrite. Liberals don't operate from principles, they operate from arbitrary doctrines. You can't betray principles you don't have. "I have many socially liberal confessing christian friends, even a few gay ones. And while I completely disagree with them, even they would say this is completely wrong. Salvation comes from a personal realization that you are a sinner and have a broken realtionship with God and only through Jesus' death on the cross can you be made whole again. If Christianity is anything, it is that and that alone. Why wear a cross? Does it mean nothing?" Why wear a cross? Because subverting the Church does infinite "good" in subverting the traditional culture as a whole, which is the primary and only real aim of their art. The words of Edmund Burke regarding the revolutionaries of his time apply just as well to the cultural liberal revolutionaries of our own, "They have some change in the church or state, or both, constantly in their view. When that is the case, they are always bad citizens, and perfectly unsure connexions. For, considering their speculative designs as of infinite value, and the actual arrangement of the state as of no estimation, they are at best indifferent about it. They see no merit in the good, and no fault in the vicious, management of public affairs; they rather rejoice in the latter, as more propitious to revolution. They see no merit or demerit in any man, or any action, or any political principle, any further than as they may forward or retard their design of change; they therefore take up, one day, the most violent and stretched prerogative, and another time the wildest democratic ideas of freedom, and pass from one to the other without any sort or regard to cause, to person, or to party." That the Church has always stood as the primary bulwark in defense of the traditional culture hardly needs stating. The only difference we're seeing here is that rather than attacking the Church from without-like the Jacobins or Leninists-our modern liberals have adopted the tactic of infiltration from within, but the intent is the same. Sure, they believe they're "good Christians", much the same way acid-rattled, flag-burning, Maoist Yippies believed they were American patriots. |
| DPJ071 | Posted: 2009/7/21 18:05 Updated: 2009/7/21 18:05 |
Quite a regular Joined: 2009/7/21 From: Posts: 60 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Amen! I sure wish these kinds of statments, which in my opinion, are "official", could be used in court when being sued by TEC. This should make any judge or jury understand why so many are leaving TEC...not just over homosexuality but over pure Christian doctrine.
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| TXVicar | Posted: 2009/7/24 9:20 Updated: 2009/7/24 9:20 |
Not too shy to talk  Joined: 2007/9/15 From: Posts: 29 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... Trying to find a positive in all of this - at least now the rest of the world which had been sitting back and saying, "Now, now - they really aren't that awful are they" has, between this and the resolutions, come to realize that there are siginificant theological problems. Finally there are "mainstream evangelicals" who would not budge before saying something must be done.
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| olarmy02 | Posted: 2009/7/24 12:28 Updated: 2009/7/24 12:28 |
Just popping in Joined: 2009/6/18 From: San Antonio, TX Posts: 18 |
Re: GC2009: TEC Presiding Bishop says individual salvatio... To qoute the Roman Polansky film "The Ninth Gate", "Even Hell has its heroes". Robinson and Schori, Heroes of Hell.
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