Is a New Anglican Communion in the Making?
COMMENTARY
By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
6/28/2009
The pieces of the Anglican puzzle are beginning to fall into place and the puzzle is beginning to take shape - for many, a new shape altogether.
The first born ecclesiastical child from the Anglican womb was GAFCON, the Global Anglican Future Conference the orthodox Anglican answer and response to the Lambeth Conference.
This movement, though unrecognized by the Lambeth Conference and the Anglican Consultative Council, represents fully two thirds and more (approximately 40 million) of the entire communion of 55 million Anglican Christians. They are mostly evangelical with a minority of Anglo-Catholics. (This figure, discounts the 26 million Church of England followers who are baptized Anglican at birth, but who make no later claims to being Christians, hence the 80 million is deemed fictitious.)
By contrast, the Lambeth Conference represents one third of The Anglican Communion with about two-thirds of its bishops.
This week in Bedford, Texas, The Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) was born amidst calls for a new reformation, renewal, evangelism, discipleship and, on the darker side, a rejection of The Episcopal Church's "gospel" of MDGs, continuing lawsuits and hostility from a church that many believe has lost its moral and theological way.
ACNA claims 100,000 Anglicans in 700 parishes with some 28 or more dioceses. It is bigger than the Anglican provinces of Wales and Scotland. It has a clear understanding of mission, evangelism and discipleship. Being gospel driven, it will only grow, much to the annoyance and chagrin of The Episcopal Church that hopes it will split over issues and become another splinter operation, much like what followed the 1977 St. Louis Convention. At that time, four priests announced they were leaving TEC over women's ordination and, over time, morphed into a Heinz 57 Varieties of Anglo-Catholics, most of whom will not engage each other in meaningful unity talks.
That movement failed to coalesce into a single province with a single overarching archbishop and one House of Bishops. ACNA has done precisely that. It has even pulled in Forward in Faith North America, who will consecrate their own bishop making them a full constituent member of ACNA.
ACNA has been well planned and well executed. It has received the imprimatur of a number of global Anglican Primates adding legitimacy to its existence and continuance.
While those Anglican jurisdictions who have joined together will maintain, as it were, dual memberships (CANA, AMIA et al), they have come together, not to bury their differences, but to come under a single umbrella of Anglican orthodoxy. Is it a perfect union? By no means. The issue of women's ordination remains a thorn in the side of this movement, and does not seem likely to be extracted any time soon. Archbishop Robert Duncan said on two occasions (Bedford and Plano) that God will sort it out, and one hopes He does.
But that might not be the biggest issue at all. The powerful, uniting service at Christ Church, Plano, was barely over when an evangelical bishop whispered in this reporter's ear that there is an ecclesiastical tug of war brewing over Anglo-Catholic verses Evangelical dominance of the new province. Time will tell.
Clearly, Archbishop Duncan has his work cut out for him. Both sides must work together to avoid a such a situation. The new province could devolve into schism before it is off the ground.
Three things, however, need to be said at this point. Duncan has shown great leadership to date and a good deal of humility in drawing together 28 dioceses. That is no small feat. Many believe he has done the nearly impossible. The canons and constitutions quickly passed indicate that compromises could and were made. The focus on the mission of the church (the gospel first) and centrality of the local church to do mission without a top down ecclesiastical hierarchy is a reverse model from that of The Episcopal Church. That may be its strongest feature.
Thirdly, the continuing presence of Bishop Jack Iker of Ft. Worth, Texas, and Bishop John-David Schofield of San Joaquin, two leading Anglo-Catholic bishops in America to have left TEC, speaks volumes about their willingness to let the issue of women's ordination ride, refusing to let it become a province dividing issue. (This has met with a good deal of hostility from other smaller Anglo-Catholic jurisdictions that have excoriated these Anglo-Catholics for compromising on this issue.) The Bishop of the Episcopal Missionary Church (EMC), The Rt. Rev. William Millsaps ripped Duncan in an open letter for compromising over the ordination of women. http://tinyurl.com/m9hc6k
For all its problems, the ACNA ship has set sail and there is no turning back.
Next week in London, another significant occasion will occur in the life of the Church of England. A movement calling itself the Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans (FCA) will be launched amid signs that the Church of England is in desperate shape and in fast decline.
The Rt. Rev. Paul Richardson, assistant Bishop of Newcastle, wrote in "The Telegraph" this week that Britain is no longer a Christian nation. The latest figures reveal a continuing annual decline in Sunday attendance running at around 1 per cent, resulting in a church that can survive for no more than 30 years. He says its leaders are not prepared to face that possibility.
The FCA is the brainchild of GAFCON. They invite individuals, congregations, dioceses and even whole provinces to join. All members have to do is assent to the Jerusalem Declaration and the goals of the FCA as a mandatory step.
This may rule out the vast majority of the Church of England who still think that Jerusalem will be built on England's green and pleasant lands, but the FCA people know better. They are signaling very politely, as only the British do, that the CofE is a theologically and morally spent force and it is time do something about it. FCA is the answer.
Their list of speakers includes a number of Anglo-Catholic and Evangelical Bishops who will launch FCA, much as ACNA had. They include five bishops: among them Dr. Michael Nazir Ali, the very evangelical and able Bishop of Rochester and Bishop John Broadhurst of Fulham, a leader in the Forward in Faith, the Anglo-Catholic movement in the UK. Other speakers include Wallace Benn (Lewes) an evangelical and a leading US Anglo-Catholic Bishop, Keith Ackerman. They will lead sessions on how FCA is a catalyst for united mission, ministry and focus for both orthodox Anglicans, be they evangelical or Anglo Catholic.
So it is clear that evangelicals and Anglo-Catholics can work together to make common cause over the gospel and much more.
This united front is being created as the result of the apostasy of both The Episcopal Church and increasingly The Church of England over pansexuality, a loss of faith among its bishops and clergy, little or no evangelistic focus and an unwillingness to see how bankrupt Anglicanism has become in the UK.
It is further acerbated by Dr. Rowan Williams' lackluster leadership (ACC-14 in Jamaica was a total debacle) and his inability to offer any real leadership except on social issues like the environment and the rise of the British National Party, while turning a blind eye to the Episcopal Church and Anglican Church of Canada's sexual permissiveness in the sacristy and pulpit. Williams, has both infuriated and galvanized Evangelicals and Anglo-Catholics to act. And act they have.
Another factor in all this is the complete failure of the so-called inside strategy to succeed. It has collapsed amidst growing lawsuits, and hardened lines over pansexual behavior and same-sex rites, now sure to pass at GC2009.
The solemn but farcical triumph of sodomy (same sex rites) in all its bedroom and ecclesiastical forms only awaits signatures from the House of Bishops and House of Deputies. This will be followed by orgiastic cries of joy from The Rev. Susan Russell (Integrity) and Dr. Louie Crew, Integrity (Emeritus) who now believe the Kingdom of God can be ushered in by the fairies ably assisted by angels of the LGBT movement and perhaps Sufi the Rumi for good measure.
This failure of the inside strategy was revealed this week by the Bishop of South Carolina, Mark Lawrence who conceded defeat on the issue, announcing that while he would send delegates to GC2009, he would not send Kendall Harmon, his canon theologian, to whisper in our (media) ears that if we just wait out one more general convention, the orthodox will prevail.
He has conceded defeat for any hope that The Episcopal Church can be saved. "The cause of biblical orthodoxy within TEC is no longer a realistic thing to strive for...Politically speaking, we have lost the day," he wrote in a letter to his diocese.
What now for him and his diocese? He swore almost eternal fealty to Mrs. Jefferts Schori to get the job as bishop (after the second try), so what will he do now? He says he will stay in TEC. You can be sure that the revisionist ecclesiastical necklacing by TEC leaders of orthodox dioceses will only continue and become more strident after GC2009.
What is very clear to this writer is that a new Anglican Communion is slowly being born. It has been pushed over the last decade by the strident evangelical voices of the Global South and by such evangelical lions as Peter Akinola (Nigeria), Henry Luke Orombi (Uganda), Benjamin Nzimbi (Kenya) and Emmanuel Kolini (Rwanda), to name but a few. (Nzimbi laid hands on Duncan in Plano).
They have had enough of TEC, the ACofC, and, increasingly, the Church of England with its lackluster leadership out of Lambeth.
There is no formal structure for schism in The Anglican Communion. We do not have a pope, there is no Magisterium. There is no common set of canons and constitutions to which all can adhere, but the authority of the Archbishop of Canterbury has been shaken to the core. Williams is desperate to keep it altogether though he admitted in Jamaica that he might not be able to do so.
What is now clear, however, is that the Archbishop of Canterbury's authority is so seriously diluted and dissipated that he has been rendered impotent and irrelevant. ACNA, the new 39th province of the Anglican Communion, doesn't need his or the Anglican Consultative Council's approval. Why ever would they seek it?
For all their faults, strains and apparent weaknesses, GAFCON, ACNA, FCA and FIF international are the future of the Anglican Communion. Their train has sounded the final blast and it is "All aboard." for a new gospel driven day in the Worldwide Anglican Communion.
END
| Poster | Thread |
|---|---|
| john123 | Posted: 2009/6/28 22:04 Updated: 2009/6/28 22:04 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/12 From: Posts: 442 |
Thank you David.
You ask, "Is a New Anglican Communion in the Making?" The answer is yes, without a shadow of doubt. The sooner we stop giving space to Williams and the rest of the revisionist crowd the better. We have much work ahead of us and looking back over our shoulders is a waste of time. They are of no concern to us. |
| Ikerliker | Posted: 2009/6/28 22:46 Updated: 2009/6/28 22:46 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2052 |
I don't care if someone is Evangelical as long as they aren't pushing the WO issue. We all coexisted much better prior to WO than we have since. People's ceremonial preferences etc... are a minor detail. There are certain basics that make us Anglican but get rid of the priestesses and it would simplify everything so much more. I remember those days and life was better. Not perfect, but better!
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| Cennydd | Posted: 2009/6/29 12:24 Updated: 2009/6/29 12:28 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 7358 |
John123, yes, a new communion is in the making, and it's a communion of the revisionists' own creation because of of the damage they've caused in the present one.
They've set the situation up very nicely for us in this ballgame they've been playing, because we've caught the ball, and now we're running with it toward the goal that Christ has set for us. They're losing the ballgame, and they know it. You don't play football in the Devil's league, because you'll lose, but if you play in Christ's league, you'll win every game. Cennydd |
| john123 | Posted: 2009/6/29 13:50 Updated: 2009/6/29 13:50 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/12 From: Posts: 442 |
Good morning Cennydd.
Sorry for the confusion on my part. It's really a question of, who is on first? so to speak. To my mind, we the orthodox are simply cleaning our tent of the cancer that is impacting on orthodoxy. To this end, we orthodox anglicans in the US and CDA are not the new. The new are the revisionists in the US and CDA soon to be joined by the C of E and others. Have a great day. It is sunny up here in the North West. |
| Fiddleback | Posted: 2009/6/29 14:16 Updated: 2009/6/29 14:16 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2009/1/12 From: Posts: 2 |
Yes there is (has been) a new Anglican Communion. It is called the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC). A land where there is no WO and there are 7 recognised sacraments.
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| Cennydd | Posted: 2009/6/29 15:02 Updated: 2009/6/29 15:10 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 7358 |
Let me make one thing clear:
The Anglican Church in North America recognizes all seven of the sacraments: The first two are Holy Baptism and the Supper of Our Lord, or the Holy Eucharist....the two Major Sacraments. The other five are the Minor Sacraments which were not ordained by Christ, but by mortal men. The ACNA is not exactly a "new" Church, but we are the reformed and realigned Anglican Church Cennydd |
| sentinel | Posted: 2009/6/29 15:35 Updated: 2009/6/29 15:35 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/11 From: Posts: 263 |
don't really have a dog in this fight any longer but I am curious to know - now that the ACNA is official what happens to the individual provinces such as the REC, CANA, etc? Do they gradually cease to exist as they are assimiliated into the strucure of the ACNA?
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| john123 | Posted: 2009/6/29 15:50 Updated: 2009/6/29 15:51 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/12 From: Posts: 442 |
Cennydd.
Are we speaking the same language? You say that "we are the reformed and realigned Anglican Church". If by reformed, you mean that we will not accecpt the revisionists and their beliefs in our tent, you and I agree. As to realigned, I do not believe so. As I pointed out heretofor the revisionists are the ones who are walking away form us and doing the realigning. Not us. If Williams walks so be it. If the C of E or any others walk, so be it. The Anglican Church does not rest on their shoulders. Those who stay, such as you and I, will continue as members of the one true Anglican Church. |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2009/6/29 17:30 Updated: 2009/6/29 17:30 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 7358 |
John123, I was attempting to paraphrase Archbishop Duncan in my description of the Church, and yes, you're right in saying that we are in fact the one true Anglican Church....though I'm sure there are others who disagree with us.
The important thing for us to remember, though, is that we are Christians of many persuasions....except of course for TEC....the Social Club in town. Cennydd |
| Traktaryan | Posted: 2009/6/29 21:08 Updated: 2009/6/29 21:08 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/7/16 From: Posts: 764 |
Is TEC in communion with Canterbury?
Yes. Will the ACNA be in communion with Canterbury? If not, then they are nothing more than yet another constituent of the "Heinz 57" Anglican Continuum. If so, then what has been accomplished? You still have orthodox Anglicans and liberal Episcopalians in the same ecclesiastical body. |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2009/6/29 21:53 Updated: 2009/6/29 21:53 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 7358 |
Quote:
You still have orthodox Anglicans and liberal Episcopalians in the same ecclesiastical body. Except that TEC (meaning Schori and Company) don't see it that way. They say we don't exist as a legitimate province, but y'know what? A lot of other provinces say that we DO.....at least fourteen have recognized us the last time I heard a couple of days ago.....and the number is quite likely to increase. Do I think being formally in the Communion is that important? Frankly, no, I don't, but for many, it is. In any case, Christ has the last say, since we're.....ALL of us....His Church. Let's let Him decide. He will, anyway. Cennydd |
| ACLins | Posted: 2009/6/29 23:58 Updated: 2009/6/29 23:58 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/3/31 From: Kentucky Posts: 284 |
For all their faults, strains and apparent weaknesses, GAFCON, ACNA and FCA are the future of the Anglican Communion. Their train has sounded the final blast and it is "All aboard." for a new gospel driven day in the Worldwide Anglican Communion.
I am so glad that Forward in Faith will have a bishop on this train! At the same time, I think we need to be realistic about the differences that exist within ACNA on significant issues: women's ordination, the nature of the Priesthood, dispensationalism, and Calvinist dualism. I pray that all will humbly seek the Truth and in that common pursuit, love one another. |
| john123 | Posted: 2009/6/30 0:09 Updated: 2009/6/30 0:11 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/12 From: Posts: 442 |
Traktaryan.
In that Williams and his ilk have walked away and taken Canterbury with them, so be it. They are no longer Anglican Until they repent and come back and rejoin us, I for one trust that we will not be in communion with Canterbury. Anglicanism has no need of Canterbury. |
| shadowmane | Posted: 2009/6/30 12:37 Updated: 2009/6/30 12:38 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/6/21 From: Salisbury, NC Posts: 23 |
Gee, this is the same conclusion those of us in the continuum(whom you guys look down your collective noses at, even in this very thread of responses) have come to.
However, I think you are wrong on one thing. The Anglican Church is the Church of England, and it will be so forever. The Church of England is ruled by the Archbishops of Canterbury. He is their Prime Bishop. Where he goes, they go. Now, this new movement that is going on will create what amounts to a new church, in that, if it happens the way you are speaking, it will create a brand new Communion. What might come of this is that England may finally separate Church and State. The implications of his could be huge. The problem is, it will be the liberals who will own it, not the "orthodox". And you still have to deal with the issues that we in the continuum have been dealing with all along. Evangelical vs Anglo-Catholic. They're both gonna want to run things, and there WILL be a fight. |
| profpk | Posted: 2009/6/30 17:54 Updated: 2009/6/30 17:54 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/9/25 From: Posts: 9 |
Death and Resurrection
A Church dies; a Church is born! The Episcopal Church implodes. The Anglican Church in North America commences. Two Anglican provinces occupy the same territory. The curtain in the temple is rent asunder again, As schism divides worshippers into two armies of God. One calls itself progressive; the other traditional. Labeling their opponents revisionist vs. reasserter. The media ascribes the split as to whether homosexual mores Shall be accepted in all offices and rites of the Church. Scholars say it is a struggle for truth, for the revealed Word, As being fixed, or open to reinterpretation in changing times. Alas, there once was a dear old church, formally known as The Protestant Episcopal Church in the U.S.A. We were proud that it functioned as a big tent, Encompassing a wide range of theological differences. The rector of the parish was called mister, Wearing a cassock, surplice, and stole, Conducting Morning Prayer with its canticles and psalms. Celebrating Holy Eucharist monthly with prayerful preparation. We were known as God's frozen people, The Republican Party at prayer, The movers and shakers, the country club members. Guilty of the great sins of pride, arrogance, indifference and snobbery. We enjoyed the majesty of the prayers, the beauty of the hymns, and chatting at the coffee hour. |
| hughmc5 | Posted: 2009/6/30 20:17 Updated: 2009/6/30 20:17 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2009/6/11 From: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 29 |
Disaster looms for these who betray the Evangelical faith of Cranmer, Ridley, Latimer, Hooper, St. Paul, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Church of England and its associates worldwide have for the most part apostatized, either leaning leftward and denying the veracity and authority of Scripture, affirming fallen "reason" and "science" as barometers of truth, or leaning conservatively toward Romish ceremony and other traditions of men. Both are forms of misguided mysticism, and both deny the final authority and sufficiency of Scripture as outlined in Article 6 of the 39 Articles: Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. This repudiates Rome's claim that her magisterium, papal edicts, or councils have equal or superior authority to sacred Writ. Further, the apocrypha are rightly rejected as non-canonical: And the other Books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine... Rome sees these books on a par with her other false authorities. Romanism denies the gospel, the finished work of Christ as sufficient for the believer's sins. They have their saints' treasury of merit and the mass -both abominations to God- that deny that the blood of Christ ALONE cleanses us from all sin. So too, they affirm that our good works merit part of our justification. Rome is decidedly NOT Christian. It is a false church. The 39 Articles are clear about that! Of Free Will-- Contra Rome that sinners can prepare themselves to receive grace. Of the Justification of Man-- It is ALL of Christ, nothing we do or have done for us by others. Of Good Works-- These follow justification. Of Christ alone without Sin-- Not the virgin! (see also #s 18 & 31) Of Predestination and Election-- Sola gratia, God's grace alone! In the 39 Articles, Rome is rightly rebuked for overstepping the bounds of Scripture regarding her illegitimate power (Art. #20), and her ungodly traditions (#34) of purgatory, relics, invoking saints (#22), her Latin gibberish (#24), the five bogus "sacraments" (#25), transubstantiation (#28), withholding the cup from laity (#30), disallowing priestly marriage (#32), et. al. Rome is not Christian if the 39 Articles describe Christianity. Canterbury at one time purportedly held to salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, according to Scripture alone; and to God alone be the glory. Rome anathematized this at Trent, and never renounced her hatred of Jesus Christ and the gospel. There is grave, fatal error in reunion with Rome, because of the serious disconnect between Romanism and the English Reformation faith. Those who promote this union despise the blood of Cranmer, Ridley, Latimer, Hooper, and others who died fighting the pope's church. J.C. Ryle's Five English Reformers and Foxe's Book of Martyrs tell of the valiant struggles of men who understood the clear and present danger of Rome's false gospel of faith plus works. The big issues are not marriage and sexuality, they are the same as in the 16th century: authority, justification, "Who is the only Mediator?," etc. Rome rejects sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fides, and solo Christo. She is today the same harlot she was then. Rome does not take Christ's word seriously. Compare the 39 Articles of Religion to Rome's errors in her catechisms or councils. PLEASE do not promote her as a true church! She is a church of chaff. If Anglicans continue to exalt this false church (I note the gullibility of those at Virtue Online who respond favorably to the prospect of a Romish reunion), then woe be to them for betraying our Lord Jesus Christ and their own Anglican hertitage. You can have the 39 Articles or you can have Trent, but you can't have them both. In Christ Alone, Hugh McCann |
| Liberty | Posted: 2009/7/1 2:24 Updated: 2009/7/1 2:24 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/3/6 From: Posts: 110 |
There will be a new Anglican community, the old one isn't for Jesus. What would we do without wise men who can make simple truthful statements for the rest of us? Pilate asks Jesus, “What is truth?--- when Jesus is right before him. My late Roman Catholic friend, Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, warned, “Remember, that there are “false, but clear ideas” an expression of deTocqueville. And they indeed do prosper—everywhere. The stupider and simpler a notion, the more generally it will be accepted. That is true in all domains.” Should we go to the government run schools where the half-educated are in charge of the education? Roman Catholics tend to look at Evangelicals as stupid simpletons easily deceived by the world. The Roman Catholic says his religion is additive, while the Evangelical knows they have added too much. For myself, I always go back to the Garden of Eden account and ask, “Would I be so stupid to fall for the deceptive pitch that I could be equal to God and would not have to face death for the infraction?” The reality is that we are really quite stupid. I like to think I am a little smarter knowing Jesus, but not much. A friend in my church says he has been slain in the Spirit, and also his wife, and they most often vote Democrat. It should be embarrassing to be so easily deceived that we strive for equality. Jesus spoke of truth and liberty, and eternal life in Him.
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| FrRHart | Posted: 2009/7/1 14:06 Updated: 2009/7/1 14:06 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/26 From: Chapel Hill,N.C. Posts: 181 |
I have to disagree with David Virtue's words, as follows:
"At that time, four priests announced they were leaving TEC over women's ordination and, over time, morphed into a Heinz 57 Varieties of Anglo-Catholics, most of whom will not engage each other in meaningful unity talks." Freedom of religion has a price attached to it, which is that new churches are always springing up. But, the Continuum of the the 1977 St.Louis meeting has only two major groupings. You may read what I have to say at the following URL. http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/2009/06/what-is-continuum-at-this-present-time.html |
| ptay12 | Posted: 2009/7/1 16:54 Updated: 2009/7/1 16:54 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/3 From: Posts: 449 |
From the Dreadfully Anglo Catholic affirmation of St. Louis and the 1977 consecrations there were created 100 bishops and 75 jurisdictions. Mercifully there are very few left. There are a lot of one horse bishops with small or no congregations. Freedom of religion allows tiny jurisdictions to exist.
The fact that there might be 2 “large” ones left is meaningless when the entire continuum has an ASA of less than 3,000. These two jurisdictions are major player in destroying the 1977 movement There has been talk of growth for 30 years. All the world has seen is anglo catholic fratricide. |
| gregory | Posted: 2009/7/1 17:08 Updated: 2009/7/2 17:44 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/8/4 From: Nflorida Posts: 4481 |
...the new continuum people are missing the big picture, that most did not listen to Metropolitan Jonah calls for Full Communion With New Anglican Province;
Hear the sermon by Metropolitan Jonah at the ACNA gathering; Click here Tremendous Love!!! humbly, gregory |
| Jer6vs16 | Posted: 2009/7/1 20:06 Updated: 2009/7/1 20:06 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/2/26 From: Posts: 6 |
Heinz 57... While this comment may be a personal opinion, it is very un-Christian and I am deeply disapointed in the author. I am sure the 1977 group meant as well as the 2009 group. I don't know for sure, I was not involved at the time, but I am guessing that several of the 2009 group were around in 1977. Where were they at then?None of us are perfect. It sounds like a comment I would have expected from a TEC bishop. Do Christians (in the Continuum or ACNA) not have more in common that we agree upon than not?
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| FrRHart | Posted: 2009/7/2 4:09 Updated: 2009/7/2 4:09 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/26 From: Chapel Hill,N.C. Posts: 181 |
Ptay12
You are simply wrong, and so is my friend David Virtue. We are neither 57 nor 75 varieties. We are at most two: The united Continuum of ACC-UECNA-ACPK and the Romeward leaning TAC. |
| FrRHart | Posted: 2009/7/3 17:09 Updated: 2009/7/3 17:16 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/26 From: Chapel Hill,N.C. Posts: 181 |
Shadowmane:
I will not comment on your predictions about the ACNA; but, though I am not part of their new movement, I see no way to know what is in their hearts; accusations of "arrogance" are simply an insult unless facts are presented. You wrote: "The Evangelical and Anglo-Catholic/Prayer Book Catholic parties will continue to be at each other's throats, just like they were in the continuum." We, in the Continuum, have room for Low and High, because both have the same essential beliefs; and, contrary to your unfounded assumption, there is no fighting, and certainly no evidence that our people are "at each other's throats." In some cases it is all in one parish where a variety of services are offered. Frankly, it is closer to the "hotbed of charity" (that Screwtape feared) than it had been before in the Episcopal Church or the C of E. This part you got right: "Of the churches that make up the continuum, three of them have intercommunion, which in reality makes them one church. Of them, there are people of all varieties of Anglicans, from Anglo-Catholic, to snake-belly low, to everything in between." But, you seem to think it is a negative. It is a positive and genuinely Anglican. Congregations who want straight Prayer Book, surplice and stole, have what they want. Congregations that want chasubles, the Missal, the "smoking service" with chest thumps, also have what they want. The people are not "at each other's throats," and I hope I would be wrong in saying to you: "You wish!" |
| FrRHart | Posted: 2009/7/3 20:36 Updated: 2009/7/3 20:50 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/26 From: Chapel Hill,N.C. Posts: 181 |
Nothing you said is relevant to my remarks about the Continuing Church founded at the St. Louis meeting in 1977, except that we are among those who entered in at the strait gate, and walk the narrow way.
Please pay attention if you are going to reply. |
| FrRHart | Posted: 2009/7/4 2:14 Updated: 2009/7/4 2:17 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/26 From: Chapel Hill,N.C. Posts: 181 |
Fr. Steve:
The second comment was a response to something that has, since then, disappeared. Look, about the ACNA I stand wholeheartedly with my bishop, Archbishop Haverland. His polite and firm reply was the word of God to them. Not knowing your identity, I thought to myself, "here is yet another Continuum basher." Nonetheless, I know the UECNA felt compelled to part company 30 years ago over the old High/Low division. But, what I see these days in the ACC is High/Low mutual appreciation and charity. Something wonderful has happened, and it is very obvious here in the diocese of the South and also of the Mid-Atlantic States. |
| LocoOwl | Posted: 2009/7/4 11:46 Updated: 2009/7/4 11:46 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/1/13 From: South Carolina Posts: 101 |
Quote:
Archbishop Robert Duncan said on two occasions (Bedford and Plano) that God will sort it ["it" being the issue of women's ordination] out, and one hopes He does. If ++Duncan said that, then he is being most disengenuous! Ultimately, God will sort everything out. But do you want to gamble with your salvation in that manner? Anglicans are supposed to have a high view of the sacraments. One of the core components of a sacrament is the matter of the sacrament. In the case of ordination the "matter" is the person being called to the priesthood. For 1900+ years the Church Catholic has not ordained women - deeming them not proper "matter" for ordination. This has nothing to do with a woman's value in God's eye. It has everything to do with the role which the Creator intended for her to play. Now, if a woman is not proper "matter," then all the words of all the bishops will not avail to make her a valid priest. Now comes the part which impinges on salvation. If such a person is not a priest, then how can a valid sacrament of Holy Communion be confected? The answer is: It cannot be validly confected. So now we have the problem of whether we can [in the words of St. Paul] "worthily receive" the Body and Blood of Christ. Do not quote me Article XXVI about the unworthiness of the priest not having an effect on the sacraments. That does not apply in this case. Article XXVI refers to a validly ordained priest. If a woman cannot be validly ordained, then her "worthiness" is not the issue, the validity of her office is the issue. Furthermore, if we are going to be so casual about such a matter, why not just go with lay presidency at the Eucharist and be done with it? You wince at the idea of lay presidency? But that is exactly what you are asking for with this idea that a woman can be validly ordained. The Church Catholic has maintained (since the beginning) that woman are cannot be validly ordained. Since they cannot be, then, in effect, what we have is a lay woman presiding at the Eucharist. Now that, boys and girls, is a matter of salvific significance, if nothing else is! But that is not where the focus of the WO debate is. ACNA - as much as I wish them well - is still playing theological Russian Roulette with their members. I find that distressing. I wonder where we would be if Iranaeus or Athanasius, or any of the other Church Fathers whom we venerate had said at Nicaea or Ephesus or Chalcedon that "God will sort it out". I doubt if the Church would have lasted very long with that sort of attitude. If the leadership of ACNA does not wake up soon, I have the same doubts about their existence. Sooner or later, this issue is going to have to be resolved. Double-mindedness has never been a very sound plan when it comes to belief or practice. The Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox know that very well. When will ACNA realize that? |





















