ACNA'09: FROM MY EAR TO YOURS....
By David W. Virtue in Bedford, Texas
www.virtueonloine.org
6/23/2009
Rumors abound that Ft. Worth Bishop Jack Leo Iker's long term goal is to take his diocese to Rome. Not true. Numerous sources have told VOL that he is deeply committed to the new North American Anglican Province and he will work with his fellow bishops over the thorny issue of women's ordination.
A number of his Ft. Worth priests were recently seen at the Anglican Use conference in Houston. He has told them that if they want to go to Rome, they can do so, but they can't take their property with them.
*****
Bumped into Rowan Williams representative yesterday. His name is The Rt. Rev. Santosh Murray, Bishop of the Seychelles (Indian Ocean). He told me that he is representing the Anglican Communion Office. A person who later bumped into him at his hotel noted that he was not too happy, grimly informing this person that he is here as a Pastoral Visitor from the Anglican Communion Office. Another person noted he looked lonely and felt sorry for him.
I guess if you are not in sync with reformation, renewal, evangelism, discipleship, and church growth, it would be enough to depress anyone.
So why is the Archbishop of Canterbury sending one of the Pastoral Visitors, groaned liberal blogger Preludium? The Archbishop of Canterbury has in place a group of people called Pastoral Visitors. They are:
* The Rt. Rev. Santosh Marray, bishop of Seychelles (Indian Ocean);
* The Rt. Rev. Colin Bennetts, retired bishop of Coventry (England);
* The Rt. Rev. Simon Chiwanga, retired bishop of Mpwapwa (Tanzania) and former chairman of the Anglican Consultative Council;
* Major General Tim Cross, a retired British soldier who was the U.K.'s senior-most officer involved in the Pentagon's post-war planning in Iraq;
* Canon Chad Gandiya, Africa desk officer for the U.K.-based mission organization USPG; and The Very Rev. Justin Welby, dean of Liverpool Cathedral (England).
Preludium thinks that the supposed reason for the Pastoral Visitors is to settle any dispute or situation of tension arising in the church and to assist in healing and reconciliation wherever possible. Duh. Where were the Pastoral Visitors when Gene Robinson was consecrated, upsetting orthodox Episcopalians all across the U.S.? Why have there been no pastoral visits to those dioceses that have consistently trampled on the Windsor Report and the Windsor Continuation Group's findings?
For the record, Santosh is just an OBSERVER, nothing more, so why is Preludium getting all bent out of shape? The ABC has every right sending in a Pastoral Visitor. He did. End of story. The Archbishop of Canterbury is neither muddling nor meddling in ACNA affairs...he can do that at GC2009 where, presumably, he will be given a warm welcome for saying nothing to upset Mrs. Jefferts Schori and her ultra-liberal House of Bishops.
*****
Uber Pastor Rick Warren is here and gave a resounding speech to the troops on evangelism and discipleship, but he has not been given access to the media. We were told he was leaving immediately after he finished his address, but in fact, he went off for lunch with ACNA leaders. He is staying much later. He was glimpsed by this reporter in a room talking to pastors and bishops.
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Archbishop Williams has encouraged ACNA to apply for membership in the Anglican Communion. Apparently he is open to this "confessing" body of Anglicans. But this writer smells a trap. Such an application would have to pass through the Anglican Consultative Council and there is not a prayer (literally) of that happening. Canon Kenneth Kearon, ACC General Secretary would never bite the hand that feeds him. TEC is safe. ACNA is out.
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Factoid: 20% of the delegates here are young people, said Bishop Duncan. In The Episcopal Church, that figure is closer to 5%...so who has the long term future?
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Heard yesterday from a prominent Anglo-Catholic Bishop: "There was this meeting of charismatic evangelicals and they reached a critical point in the debate, so the Chair called the question, 'Could all those in favor of the motion please signify by lowering your arms'. I think perhaps we're getting to that point here in Bedford".
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Quotable quote: "The church is indefectible but not infallible" - Bishop William Wantland, assisting Bishop in the Diocese of Ft. Worth.
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Bishop John-David Schofield, who led 90 percent of the Episcopal Diocese of San Joaquin, Calif., out of the denomination, said he was "thrilled" with the gathering. "This represents more than 20 years of work and sacrifice," he said. "It's good to be part of a House of Bishops where there's love, cooperation and a desire to support each other."
*****
Spotted retired Quincy Bishop Keith Ackerman, but not Springfield Bishop Peter Beckwith. No word on whether Ackerman will participate in the consecration of the bishops and the enthronement of Bishop Duncan. Bishop Ackerman serves on the ACNA Admissions Committee, as a representative from FIFNA. Bishop Beckwith serves on the Ecumenical Relations Committee. Bishop John-David Schofield is here and loving the fellowship. He is out of TEC.
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Everything in Texas is BIG.... sort of goes with the territory. Along the highways one sees churches, BIG churches. Most of them look like huge Walmarts with crosses on top of them. Most of them are orthodox, I'm told and don't believe in all the inclusive nonsense of The Episcopal Church. Ordaining sodomy "saints" are not on their church calendars.
END
| Poster | Thread |
|---|---|
| Isaac | Posted: 2009/6/24 13:18 Updated: 2009/6/24 13:18 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/3/1 From: Texas Posts: 595 |
Quote:
"Ordaining sodomy 'saints' are not on their church calendars." Touchè Isaac |
| JPollard | Posted: 2009/6/24 13:59 Updated: 2009/6/24 13:59 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/24 From: Montgomery, Alabama Posts: 17 |
I am just a lowly parishoner, but could someone please explain why ACNA needs (or wants) Rowan Williams?
Are there priests' pensions at stake or what? Frankly it is difficult to understand why ACNA members would want to be associated with him in any manner. |
| john123 | Posted: 2009/6/24 14:39 Updated: 2009/6/24 14:41 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/12 From: Posts: 392 |
JPollard.
In God's eyes there is no such person as a lowly parishoner. We are all one. Nobody needs or wants Williams. He has turned his back on God. Today he is a nothing. However, as with the Titanic, there are those who lack sufficient faith in Christ to let go of this charlatan. To answer your question, nobody needs Williams except for the episcopalian cult. |
| BGold | Posted: 2009/6/24 14:48 Updated: 2009/6/24 14:48 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2009/6/17 From: Posts: 4 |
Can anyone tell me why having Rick Warren present is something to be excited about? That kind of lowest-common-denominator protestantism may be great at filling up the church Starbucks on Sunday morning, but it will always be something significantly less than the depth of the universal Church's rich tradition--or than the insights of the magisterial reformers and Puritans, for that matter.
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| JPollard | Posted: 2009/6/24 15:23 Updated: 2009/6/24 15:23 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/24 From: Montgomery, Alabama Posts: 17 |
John:
Thank you and Amen! |
| john123 | Posted: 2009/6/24 16:24 Updated: 2009/6/24 16:24 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/12 From: Posts: 392 |
JPollard.
Thank you. I am reminded of a priest, an episcopalian, who spoke to me some 10 years ago and noted that the church always comes between man and God. Since that time I have focused on those in the church, such as Williams, who enjoy the "perks"- status in the community, benefits, pensions etc. and hours of work-of their positions and have noticed that with so many it's a question of a well paying job and not a calling in the traditional sense. In returning to our orthodox roots, we are in the process of sweeping those who will not stand tall for Christ and the Gospels out of our tent. By-the - by. I sat at the back of the Church for some 65 years and did little or nothing to fight the cancer. |
| Thyatira | Posted: 2009/6/24 19:12 Updated: 2009/6/24 19:12 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2009/1/24 From: Posts: 13 |
Thanks David for reporting the bad along with the good.
Disappointed to hear that Bishop Iker has not left TEC behind. "can't take their properties with them"...where have I heard that before? Sad. You can't force people to stay in a church, if their heart is not in it, let them go in peace with their properties. Divided they fall.... And it sounds like it is still very much an "us and them" - differences in worship style, and a "we are better than them" attitude. Unless ACNA moves beyond their differences, they will die sooner than TEC. Unity is the only way forwards. What unites these people? What is the common vision that all share and get excited about? How does being in one church together make each component stronger? Unite or die.... |
| otispage2 | Posted: 2009/6/24 19:36 Updated: 2009/6/24 19:36 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 602 |
Respectfully, BGold. Your statement, "That kind of lowest-common-denominator protestantism … will always be something significantly less than the depth of the universal Church's rich tradition--", implies quack snobbery and is contradicted by the fact “the universal Church's rich tradition" (TEC) that you refer to has genuflected to the homosexual agenda -- and a deep heretical apostasy rejecting Scripture.
Are you, BGold, ignoring this is why ACNA exists as a rejection of TEC's apostasy? Prominent evangelists – exemplified by Rick Warren’s witness -- applaud ACNA’s courageous stand. |
| ejsteele | Posted: 2009/6/25 0:14 Updated: 2009/6/25 0:14 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/10/18 From: Posts: 347 |
I agree that what ACNA is doing is a good thing,but I'd never assume anyone was talking about TEC in mentioning "the universal Church's rich tradition". Nor would I say that preferring the Church's tradition is "quack snobbery". While Rick Warren may be a good author/speaker, he is no St. Athenasius or St. Augustine.
+Ed |
| LuxRex | Posted: 2009/6/25 2:12 Updated: 2009/6/25 2:12 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/12/27 From: Posts: 31 |
I'm not thrilled with Warren either, however, last I checked he hasn't been offered a job as an ACNA priest. Warren certainly is an excellent speaker--and certainly is excited about evangelism and church growth--even though his idea of Church and worship is different than our own. I wouldn't get too excited either way--condemning or applauding, as he was just one speaker--and really is a kind of representative of generic evangelicalism.
The point is though, is that Christians orthodox about the essentials (say the Apostles Creed--and scripture as God's Word) have a lot more in common with each other, than with the liberal apostates of their own tradition. As a very conservative Calvinist, I can embrace a believing Roman Catholic a lot more readily than your average liberal Presbyterian.... Rev. Al Mohler--one of the premium theologians of the Southern Baptists today--was a speaker at the Mere Anglicanism conference in Charleston this year--and he was terrific. Why? He reminded us all of what, or rather Who is more important than our own denominational distinctives--namely our Lord Jesus Christ. |
| LuxRex | Posted: 2009/6/25 2:26 Updated: 2009/6/25 2:26 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/12/27 From: Posts: 31 |
Be careful of condemning Williams. I too have been extremely frustrated at timidity and waffling headship of this scholar. Scholars often do not make the best leaders--no matter how orthodox they are. Williams has not openly applauded homosexual ordination--and has desperately been trying to hold the worldwide Communion together--an impossible task given the rebellion of TEC et al.
I have heard public testimony that Williams is concerned to spread the gospel in the British isles--and this was from an evangelical-charismatic who knows Rowan personally. I don't really know if Williams has a saving relationship with Jesus or not--though I do know he has done a lousy job as ABC. We should be careful to stick with things we know...and not be too quick to condemn someone personally. Has (and is?) Williams been confused about the homosexual issue in the past? Surely. Is he still? Probably. Does that condemn him to Hell? I don't think so... All I know is he should not be the ABC--and he has fiddled while the WWAC has burned--however failures in leadership do not equal abject apostasy. |
| john123 | Posted: 2009/6/25 15:08 Updated: 2009/6/25 15:08 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/12 From: Posts: 392 |
LuxRex.
I cannot agree. We are poles apart. As with so many others, you have allowed yourself to be distracted by the homosexual issue. But the homsexual issue is only one, and one of the smallest, of the many issues that Williams has not addressed as a Christian However, where does Williams stand on questions surrounding the base of our Faith, the Gospels, the Creeds etc? Has Williams stood tall for Christ on the question of: is Christ the only way to Heaven? Yes or no. Where is Williams on the question of: the Resurrection? True or false. Why has Williams not stood tall and told those anglicans, especially those in the episcopal cult, for example, who now allow that Christ is not the only way to Heaven that they are wrong and must move out of the communion. Based on his silence and lack of clear direction, I question whether Williams is a true Christion. As orthodox Anglicans, we do not need a Williams or any others of his type. |
| otispage2 | Posted: 2009/6/26 15:37 Updated: 2009/6/26 15:47 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 602 |
Respectfully ejstelle, please again correct me given that I am wrong. But, TEC does represent itself to be "the universal Church's rich tradition" in this specific context:
The Holy Spirit has moved on in Its revelations regarding same-sex sexual relationships and the ordination of women and homosexuals. The Pope may disagree, but, following the authoritative discretions of Henry the VIII, ABC does not. (Matt 22:21; Luke 20:25) |
| LGMarshall | Posted: 2009/6/28 21:58 Updated: 2009/6/28 21:58 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/11/25 From: Posts: 54 |
Pastor Rick Warren is a Bible Believing Christian that teaches straight out of the Bible, no frills, no soft-pedaling, no white-washing Heaven & Hell, he's clear that there is only 1 WAY to Salvation, through accepting the Free Gift that Jesus Christ offers though Faith by His Grace.
He constantly stands up to the prevailing culture of 'All paths lead to God', and has brought the message of Salvation to thousands upon thousands of individuals that were heretofore condemned to Life Eternal in Hell. |
| CTMom | Posted: 2009/7/2 15:51 Updated: 2009/7/2 15:52 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/7/16 From: CANA in CT Posts: 139 |
Quote:
Can anyone tell me why having Rick Warren present is something to be excited about? That kind of lowest-common-denominator protestantism may be great at filling up the church Starbucks on Sunday morning, but it will always be something significantly less than the depth of the universal Church's rich tradition--or than the insights of the magisterial reformers and Puritans, for that matter. Dear BGold, It sounds like you're trying to convey an insult to Rick Warren. In math, the "lowest-common-denominator" is the lowest number that all of the numbers in question have in common. Our common denominator in the universal church is Jesus. Rick Warren's writing and his ministry are all about Jesus. If you have a problem with that, perhaps you are too focused on the "smells and bells" of the Anglo-Catholic tradition to realize that he is closer in form to the Puritans than we are. |



















