JAMAICA: Delegates Argue over Dropped Moratoria Litigation in Windsor Continuation Report
By David W. Virtue in Jamaica
www.virtueonline.org
5/8/2009
US Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori and the two other TEC delegates gave a spirited defense to have a fourth moratoria regarding litigation removed from a draft of the Windsor Continuation Group report. Sudanese Bishop Ezekiel Kondo of Khartoum blasted her saying she got her facts wrong in a case of the cathedral pulling out of the Diocese.
"It never happened. It was not the cathedral, but the bishop's house that was sold. We did not go to court. I support the amendment to include the fourth Moratoria," he said.
Bishop Azad Marshall of Iran got up and objected to Jefferts Schori's characterization of litigation in Jerusalem saying the church was never taken to court over property issues. "It was of a personal nature in Jerusalem, not civil litigation."
The Moratoria have not in all cases been observed completely. There are degrees (of compliance) for different moratoria, it was noted.
President Bishop Mouneer Anis of Egypt said the fourth moratoria should be included because it was in the Dar es Salaam statement and because of all the litigation in The Episcopal Church between 2007 - 2009.
Bishop Bill Godfrey of Peru said he shared the concern about intervention in cross boundary situations, noting that good and godly men were being persecuted and asked to set aside the discipline of the church in their provinces. "We have to ask why the Archbishops of Uganda, Nigeria and the Southern Cone would only increase boundary crossings. I see a danger if we lose the discipline of the church. We cannot ignore litigation dealing with one of the (major) ills in the Anglican Communion."
"Litigation should be included in the Moratoria. Bishop Jon Bruno of the Diocese of Los Angeles took part in a marriage ceremony of two priests in his diocese. We need to put it all on the table and look at how best The Episcopal Church can be dealt. I support the proposed amendment of Bishop Mouneer that the question of litigation be included in this section."
Lay Southeast Asia delegate Stanley Isaacs commented that the ACC should not be afraid of moratoria. Any amount of restraint that advances the unity of the church and the truth of the gospel we should not be afraid fearful to accept. "Restraint should be good for the church. This is a plenary session and we should accept anything."
Katharine Jefferts Schori rose to say she opposed (adding this fourth moratoria) arguing that the consecration of an openly gay and partnered bishop in 2003 was not the beginning of incursions that began in 2000, three years before the consecration. They have continued unabated and unapologetically, even though TEC has complied with all the moratoria at significant cost.
"I have been persuaded that those who engage in cross boundary actions have no intention of stopping regardless of what the Primates say, what the Joint standing committee says, the Lambeth Conference says and regardless of what the ACC does today."
Lay delegate, Josephine Hicks, said it is time to move on beyond the moratoria and allow TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada and others to be true to themselves and not disallow anyone to participate in the fuller life of the communion. He urged rejection of the amendment.
Jefferts Schori said that those who have sought to remove property have done so without consultation. This is not a difficulty in just North America, but also in Harare, Sudan and Brazil where there have been efforts to recover property. "We have a moral and fiduciary to these dioceses and parishes. "I urge you to vote no to the amendment."
The Rev. Dr. Ian Douglas, TEC clerical delegate said, "My worry is about moratoria creep. Another moratoria gets added to the list and there is nothing to stop adding moratoria 5 and 6. It will increase the chaos in the communion."
Welsh Archbishop Barry Morgan said his church would have no choice but to litigate. "Properties are vested in the Church in Wales. I would insist we take legal action."
Lay delegate Suzanne Wasman, Canada, said she was worried about congregational creep. "The diocese owns the property. I urge you to vote against this resolution."
The 65 delegates voted, 32 voted for, 33 voted against. The amendment lost.
END
| Poster | Thread |
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| Cennydd | Posted: 2009/5/8 20:36 Updated: 2009/5/15 10:31 |
Home away from home   Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684 |
 Re: JAMAICA: Delegates Argue over Dropped Moratoria Litig...It comes as no surprise that she says this while ignoring what her own Church has done. This border crossing would never have become necessary if The Episcopal Church hadn't openly and without apology and repentance deviated from the teachings of the early Church fathers and in fact, from the Faith of Christ crucified.
Mrs Schori is finding that those who oppose her in the ACC are standing up to her in their promoting the fourth moratorium and saying "NO" to her, and she doesn't like that. Cennydd |
| daveball | Posted: 2009/5/9 0:22 Updated: 2009/5/9 0:22 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2004/12/18 From: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 2281 |
Re: JAMAICA: Delegates Argue over Dropped Moratoria Litig... The Second Avenue madam is all in a snit because the orthodox have been trying to defend their faith. How dare they!!! She can persecute faithful priests and bishops while stomping her feet when someone tries to save parishes and dioceses from her tyrany.
The sooner this witch is consigned to the scrap heap of history the better. |
| Ikerliker | Posted: 2009/5/9 1:37 Updated: 2009/5/9 1:37 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2046 |
Re: JAMAICA: Delegates Argue over Dropped Moratoria Litig... She is repulsive!
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| Aneirin | Posted: 2009/5/9 2:10 Updated: 2009/5/9 2:10 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2008/12/30 From: Southern California Posts: 162 |
Re: JAMAICA: Delegates Argue over Dropped Moratoria Litig... She is Satan's willing accomplice.
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| glenda12 | Posted: 2009/5/9 3:01 Updated: 2009/5/9 3:01 |
Quite a regular   Joined: 2008/7/8 From: Northern California Posts: 44 |
Re: JAMAICA: Delegates Argue over Dropped Moratoria Litig... I have read several of her writings and read articles that have been posted on VOL and on other sites. I find her to be an idiot. She has abused her office to the point of bring down PEUSA. And for what? Her own personal power base. As a woman-I am ashamed to say that she and I are of the same gender. Surely if they were going to elect a woman to PB, they could have found a woman much more qualified than her. She needs to take her classes over at whatever seminary school she went to (or register at Nashota House) and pay more attention in class. If churches are leaving and going under the protection of other provinces,one would think that the light would go on. But it obviously did not in her case. She just needs to be forcibly removed from her post-someone should sue HER.
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| GardenSt | Posted: 2009/5/9 14:18 Updated: 2009/5/9 14:18 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/7/26 From: Posts: 154 |
Re: JAMAICA: Delegates Argue over Dropped Moratoria Litig... RELIEF!!!
Now it is clear that Schori is the real ABC, the Covenant and Windsor are dead we can breath clean air. It is over! The only questions are will there be a new international orthodox Church with an Anglican heritage, or do we just go to Rome or the Orthodox? Time for this priest to move on. First anger then saddness now RELIEF. |
| TeriLyn | Posted: 2009/5/15 15:15 Updated: 2009/5/15 15:16 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2006/11/19 From: Fresno, CA Anglican Dio. Of San Joaquin Posts: 272 |
Re: JAMAICA: Delegates Argue over Dropped Moratoria Litig... glenda12,
Not only has she destroyed PECUSA but she has helped, if not spear headed the destruction of the Worldwide Anglican Communion! But, I'm trying to figure out why we are spending so much money on trying to keep buildings that cost more than what is being spent on litigation defense? I say let them have them! They can't fill them and they would be spending more money maintaining them then what it would cost to litigate. With the real estate market as it is they can't and won't get market value if they even sale! So I say walk away....cut our loses and sink money into a new place that is free and clear of anything TEc! Continuing to throw money and hard to get money....since I see that we are pleading for monetary help for our legal defense fund here in San Joaquin, it is not good stewardship IMHO!  |
| LuxRex | Posted: 2009/5/15 16:45 Updated: 2009/5/15 16:45 |
Not too shy to talk   Joined: 2006/12/27 From: Posts: 31 |
Re: JAMAICA: Delegates Argue over Dropped Moratoria Litig... It's easy to say, in the heat of idealism, "we don't need any property to be a faithful Church" and so it is true--in a basic sense. At the same time, we don't need houses or towns to be a people either, as the children of Israel lived in tents in the desert(for a generation, anyway). However, dwelling places are a very great blessing, which should not be abandoned easily--for those of us that must live in these bodies on earth...which I believe includes the whole Church militant.
As one who worships with a terrific Anglican church in a gymnasium at the Y... AND as one who has seen Presbyterians go through much this same process 20 years ahead of Episco/Anglicans,I can say for sure: IT IS A VERY GOOD THING TO KEEP THE RESOURCES (including property) GOD HAS PROVIDED HIS TRUE CHURCH. Make no mistake about it, Saint Paul is correct in warning Christians from suing Christians in 1 Cor 6. However, As Queen Schori has amply demonstrated, again and again, by word and deed--regardless of the clothing they wear and the offices they supposedly fill...the plaintiffs here are NOT CHRISTIANS. Make no mistake about it, the Church catholic is being physically assaulted in law, by false shepherds, wolves in sheeps clothing, making false claims of authority and ownership. Whatever resources stolen from Christ' body by TEC, will be used for the devil's purposes--even if that is just selling it to fund more lawsuits. Within the bonds of charity--following the example of St. Paul--who firmly, but respectfully stood up for his rights as a Roman Citizen--to bring himself and the gospel to the highest authorities (while eventually losing his life doing so) so too, must the orthodox not be like sheep led to slaughter. Jesus' example is unique--as he came, at the right time, specifically to die and submit to injustice. We however, as a body are not called to throw away our rights as citizens and give away the gifts generations gave--in the form of Church property, to the devil. Every congregation is different, and we must listen to and obey the guidance of the Holy Spirit when it comes to specific property issues/law suits. However, the general idea that the orthodox should slink away, and not fight for their rights--in states where that is possible, I think is the height of wimpy effeminate false spirituality; only encouraging 815 to viciously sue people all the more. The Presbyterian Church in America--which broke away from the mainline southern Presbyterians in the 1970s (about 10% of s. Presbyterians, when they started)--has yet, in 35 years, to recover and build what these churches had in seminaries, camps, and church buildings, when they were part of the mainline Church. I know and have friends that were part of that early idealistic break away....and some of these regret it... Why? Ministry IS actually a lot more difficult with access to a lot leaner resources. Is it analogous to fleeing Egypt? No. As most of the historic church buildings and capitol funds were given by sweat and tears of orthodox Christians, who would in no way allow their use by the apostates today. To simply walk away from such property, without seeking to uphold the law--in the legal rights of the faithful...is to not only wimpily allow injustice to go unchecked in society today, but, to betray many generations who came before. Is the Church a lot more than brick and mortar? YES, OF COURSE. However, the brick and mortar are God's good gifts, ones which should not be handed over easily to the devil's band of thieves. |
| TeriLyn | Posted: 2009/5/15 17:27 Updated: 2009/5/15 17:27 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/11/19 From: Fresno, CA Anglican Dio. Of San Joaquin Posts: 272 |
Re: JAMAICA: Delegates Argue over Dropped Moratoria Litig... LuxRex,
I get what you are saying and have said the same for a long time......however.....when I see that we are asking for monetary help and I know that our resources are not that great in comparison to 815 and I see many of the churches in our diocese that are in great need of some repair and up keep and are struggling to meet the daily financial needs to just keep going monetarily, I have to ask the question! When and where do we draw the line of loss...when there is no more money at all and we are taking money from those barely making ends meet each month themselves and yet still maintaining the tithe to their church but the rector is asking for more because of litigation costs while his salary is not yet in jeopardy? Or how about when we have no more finances to pay the litigation's and we find ourselves out on our keesters and have no more funds to get into another rented building somewhere. Reality is reality! |
| LuxRex | Posted: 2009/5/15 18:39 Updated: 2009/5/15 18:48 |
Not too shy to talk Joined: 2006/12/27 From: Posts: 31 |
Re: JAMAICA: Delegates Argue over Dropped Moratoria Litig... Please know, as I acknowledged above, every congregation is different, and the legal circumstances are different--according to locality-- and the Lord has led some congregations to fight (Virginia, and CANA for example) and others to flee. I live in NC, where unlike Virginia, there's almost no chance the courts will allow a congregation to keep it's building in a fight with the larger denomination. The right thing to do here is first pray (always) and then to try to get the bishop to let you go, or the laws changed....and if all that fails, (usually) to flee.
However I have heard people up in VA and other places, who act as if, in principle, it is somehow more righteous to flee rather than fight--using limited resources at law... Well goodness, first our resources are not limited....and 2ndly the law we are helping establish is EQUITY, which many others in the future will benefit by--it isn't about paying unsavory lawyers. To just lay down and be trampled on, encourages the abuser to abuse you, and others too, all the more. All I'm arguing is we cannot assume pacifism in this is God's way. In your particular situation--your priests and congregation must decide for itself, where the Holy Spirit is leading. I do know, we should not lose faith about resources, either now or later. |
| TeriLyn | Posted: 2009/5/15 18:47 Updated: 2009/5/15 18:47 |
Home away from home Joined: 2006/11/19 From: Fresno, CA Anglican Dio. Of San Joaquin Posts: 272 |
Re: JAMAICA: Delegates Argue over Dropped Moratoria Litig... It appears that VA is the only place that TEc has actually lost! The courts everywhere else have sided with TEc which is why the appeals courts and the Supreme Court is on the radar! Even here while we have a very good team of attorneys who were able to sway the judge to take a closer look at his initial stance it is still no guarantee that no matter which side of the issue he comes down on we will still find ourselves either filing an appeal or answering an appeal then heading off to the Supreme Court....which takes money and lots of it and in the meantime....property still needs to be maintained, repaired, salaries met, and ministries of feeding the hungry, helping the homeless and those in gangs looking for a way out and coming to God all need to to get done and that costs money as well. the economy in the meantime is not helping.....something will have to give.....I pray that God will give relief and soon!
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